Cuban Players Defectors

[Cubano100%]

I forgot something J.P. That logo you got belongs to a AAA team. :laugh :coffee

[Mattingly]

Hello everyone, I'm new around here, Cubano extended me an invitation. Following up on the article he posted about Rolando Viera, I still dont understand why Viera was never given another shot with a big league organization, in 2002, his first full year in baseball, after missing 2000 in Cuba, and all of 6 games in 01, he posted merely decent numbers, but I have seen other players do much worst and they are given another shot. Could he had been targeted by MLB for trying to sue them back in 00 because of the way they treat Cuban defectors (making them go through the draft, etc) ?
J.P, welcome here to BBF. I'm sure that you will be welcome, as Cubano100%, like Agent Libre, are very good forumers and both very knowledgeable about Cuban Defectors. :)

Please share your experience here about Cuban defector baseball players, including their wide-ranging baseball experience in Cuba.

Thanks.

[Agente Libre]

J.P. -- I was just thinking/wondering the same thing about Viera. It wouldn't surprise me if he was somewhat targeted after the lawsuit, but I think other factors are more to blame:

-- Viera was released at the end of 2003 spring training because he was out of shape. It's always really hard to get a job in late March or early April to begin with (there are hundreds of players released that time of year), and being out of shape makes it that much tougher.

-- Viera only had pitched for 1.5 seasons, so most teams probably didn't have much info. for him.

-- When Viera was released, the new people in charge of the Red Sox claimed that they thought they had drafted Norge Vera (similar last name to Viera), so a lot of teams probably thought Viera was no good.

-- Viera either fired his agent, or his agent fired him, in late 2001, and he ended up with some guys who had no real experience as agents. Without a good agent to get a player's name out there, it's almost impossible to get a second chance.

-- Viera has had trouble keeping a job. He's been quickly released by several teams and I heard he was actualy kicked out of Mexico or Nicaragua for disciplinary reasons. MLB teams stay away from guys like that unless they are well above average players.

Bottom line, Viera was really his own worst enemy. He had a great chance with Boston but was a head case and couldn't stay away from the donuts. When you're 29 years old, like Viera was when he was released in 2003, and you're not taking your career seriously, it's tough to get a second chance. It's a lot easier when you're 21 or 22.

[Kiefer]

Welcome J.P. Hope you enjoy your stay here.

[Cubano100%]

Michel Abreu went 3-4 with a double and 2 RBI. Ave 348. He now has 20 doubles and 12 HR despite arriving late at AA. He is leading his league in Ave, OPS, top 3 in SLU. :noidea
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_07_27_haraax_binaax_1




Yunel Escobar went 2-5.
Barbaro Canizares 1-4. He now has 18 doubles despite arriving late at AA.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_07_27_msbaax_mobaax_1

[J.P]

Thanks everyone, thanks for the info on Viera Agente, here is a good article about him, and the whole cuban defectors situation, its old, but its good (the link to "A case of mistaken ability?" explains how the Red Sox' scout confused him with Norge Vera) :


http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2001/0709/1224184.html

[J.P]

Hey Cubano, the player getting the more playing time at 1B for the Mets' AAA team, is Jose Offerman, hitting 228, 6HR, 28 RBI; and Abreu cant get a chance??????:eek: Puzzling.

[J.P]

Roberto Alvarez playing in DSL:

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Roberto%20Alvarez&pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=504385

[jon7jmets]

Yuliesky Gourriel defected? to Yanks????


http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2006/7/28/16914/7801

[CameronCrazies]

http://www.elnacional.com.do/app/article.aspx?id=59855

Yuliesky and Paret defect today! the two top players, arguably in Cuba.

Please give more info if you guys know this is true

[Agente Libre]

I highly doubt this is true. The Cuban team returned home to Cuba five days ago; surely news this big would have gotten out sooner.

Further, Eduardo Paret is not even one of Cuba's top 20 players, let alone one of the top two.

[jon7jmets]

According to Will Carroll, Cuban third baseman Yuliesky Gourriel has defected. I'll try to relay what I've learned about Gourriel, who is likely to become quite the hot commodity in short order.

[Cubano100%]

Michel Abreu went 1-4 with a triple. Ave 347.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_07_28_haraax_binaax_1


Yunel Escobar went 1-3 with his 19th double. Ave 286.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_07_28_msbaax_mobaax_1


Eduardo Morlan had his second save. 3 IP 7 SO. ERA 2.44
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_07_28_wisafx_belafx_1

[jon7jmets]

Cuban Star Yuliesky Gourriel Defects

According to Will Carroll, Cuban third baseman Yuliesky Gourriel has defected. I'll try to relay what I've learned about Gourriel, who is likely to become quite the hot commodity in short order.

Gourriel is approximately 21 years old. At least, that's his reported age. He's a third baseman but has experience at second as well. Last winter he flashed immense power at the baseball World Cup with eight home runs in eleven games; he also performed well in the WBC.

Baseball America indicates that Gourriel would certainly be a first-round pick if he came up through the American system. A scout describes him as "a championship-caliber third baseman in the big leagues." BA likens him to Chipper Jones or Ernie Banks as far as body type and gushes over his bat speed.

Gourriel accomplished his defection via Colombia. That country's Bogota Times said "it appears that his next destination would be the New York Yankees."

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

[Cubano100%]

I doubt the whole story. Certainly, I hope Yuliesky Gourriel defected. Paret is too old to be considered seriously by any MLB team. Eduardo Paret would have been a MLguer if he had defected younger.

Until I see Gourriel speaking to reporters, I do not believe anything.


Who is Will Carroll?

[jon7jmets]

Two more Cuban baseball players have reportedly defected.

Three days after three Cubans defected to the Dominican Republic, Yulieski Gurriel and Eduardo Paret defected to the Colombian city of Cartagena, the local press reported Friday.

"One of the members of the Cuban team who deserted is star second baseman Yulieski Gourriel, considered as one of the best in the world at his position," The Bogota Times reported Friday. "It appears that his next destination would the New York Yankees.

"The other deserter from the Cuban team is shortstop Eduardo Paret," the newspaper reported.

On Tuesday, Damaris Nay, Julio Acosta and Carlos Castillo defected. Cartagena and the Dominican Republic are both the sites of the 20th Central American and Caribbean Games.




http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2533062&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines

[Cubano100%]

Yuliesky Gourriel's father and brother are with a Cuban team in Ecuador. His father is the manager and his brother is an outfielder.

[Cubano100%]

The Atlanta Braves have now 5 Cuban players. RHP Danys Baez has been traded to the Braves.


http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060728&content_id=1580708&vkey=trade2006&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[Cubano100%]

Kenny Rodriguez who just defected in Ecuador. Kiefer thank you for the picture.

http://www.fotospl.com/Imagenes%5CCh%5C707~-374.JPG

[Quicksilv3r]

Any updates on Gourriel and Paret?!!
I mean, according to those website liks given it seems like that could be true?

[CameronCrazies]

Further, Eduardo Paret is not even one of Cuba's top 20 players, let alone one of the top two.[/QUOTE]

I disagree...maybe I was a little excited claiming him to be in the top 2, but if he starts at shortstop for the national team he has to be a top five position player, right? I think he gets a shot with a team in the US.

[aarond23]

http://www.elnacional.com.do/app/article.aspx?id=59855

Here is another link reporting the defection. This would be extremely interesting considering how unlikely it was considered that Gourriel would defect.

[CameronCrazies]

[QUOTE=Cubano100%]The Atlanta Braves have now 5 Cuban players. RHP Danys Baez has been traded to the Braves.


Actually it's six, Bueno, Escobar, Canizares, Pena, Baez, and Roberto Alvarez.

Cubano 100%...Where would you see Gourriel talking to reporters? In Cartegena?

[J.P]

In a short interview aired last night on channel 23 spanish news in Miami, one of the organizers of the Games in Colombia denied this rumor.

[Quicksilv3r]

Well I've seen this news in many sites, even in wikpedia :crazy So I REALLY hope this is true...

[Agente Libre]

Hate to kill the excitement but it's NOT true. Gourriel was quoted in a Cuban media report *yesterday* saying how happy/proud he was to help Cuba win gold in Colombia.

As for Paret, he was a good player in his prime and would have been a top MLB prospect in the 1990s. But now, he is a mid-30s shortstop with no power, and nowhere near one of the top 5 players in Cuba.

[J.P]

I was rather skeptical when I first heard the news too. Notes from the Mets-Braves game today, besides the great performance by El Duke:

"ATLANTA -- Carlos Delgado left Saturday's game in the third inning when he was hit in the right knee by a pitch from Braves starter Tim Hudson."

Could this be the chance for Abreu?

[J.P]

Hey Cubano, at least you upgraded us to AAA, last time I checked we were AA!!!!! It was bout time you started recognizing!

[jon7jmets]

Hate to kill the excitement but it's NOT true. Gourriel was quoted in a Cuban media report *yesterday* saying how happy/proud he was to help Cuba win gold in Colombia.

As for Paret, he was a good player in his prime and would have been a top MLB prospect in the 1990s. But now, he is a mid-30s shortstop with no power, and nowhere near one of the top 5 players in Cuba.i show that Paper to my friend and he said.


"Upon inspection, this site looks like its the Cuban government's English language propaganda/media outlet. If you look at their sports section, they make such a point of Yuli being happy with the gold; there isn't even an announcement of winning the gold, it just says that Yulieski is happy with it. It seems like they're really grasping, and we had heard that the Cuban government was denying he defected. Elsewhere on the site it also says that five Cubans currently being held by the US government were in the United States fighting Cuban-American terrorists who are trying to overthrow Castro's regime, and are angry that Americans don't realize such activities are ongoing..... Basically, I'm more inclined to trust Will Caroll than this site."

[jon7jmets]

I was rather skeptical when I first heard the news too. Notes from the Mets-Braves game today, besides the great performance by El Duke:

"ATLANTA -- Carlos Delgado left Saturday's game in the third inning when he was hit in the right knee by a pitch from Braves starter Tim Hudson."

Could this be the chance for Abreu?No, he probably will stay in AA all season the team he is on is in a Playoffs race.

[Kiefer]

i show that Paper to my friend and he said.


"Upon inspection, this site looks like its the Cuban government's English language propaganda/media outlet. If you look at their sports section, they make such a point of Yuli being happy with the gold; there isn't even an announcement of winning the gold, it just says that Yulieski is happy with it. It seems like they're really grasping, and we had heard that the Cuban government was denying he defected. Elsewhere on the site it also says that five Cubans currently being held by the US government were in the United States fighting Cuban-American terrorists who are trying to overthrow Castro's regime, and are angry that Americans don't realize such activities are ongoing..... Basically, I'm more inclined to trust Will Caroll than this site."

My thoughts exactly, I'm still optimistic. I found this article today: http://www.deadspin.com/sports/mlb/lets-talk-about-cuban-defectors-190746.php.

[Kiefer]

Unfortunately, it's not true.:(

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=464576

[Cubano100%]

[QUOTE=Cubano100%]The Atlanta Braves have now 5 Cuban players. RHP Danys Baez has been traded to the Braves.


Actually it's six, Bueno, Escobar, Canizares, Pena, Baez, and Roberto Alvarez.

Cubano 100%...Where would you see Gourriel talking to reporters? In Cartegena?


Anywhere. But this is not true. Sometimes I wonder if some in the media are naive or the Cuban government creates rumors like this so they can later rip the benefits by using its propaganda machine.

[Agente Libre]

Will Carroll didn't report anything; all he did was regurgitate the same erroneous info. from other rumor sites.

The Cuban media is obviously propaganda, but there would be no reason for Cuba to deny Gourriel defected if he had, in fact, left. In such cases, life in Cuba simply marches on and the media makes no mention of the defection. It would make no sense to deny Gourriel defected if he had done so; everyone in Cuba would learn the truth anyway.

[Quicksilv3r]

^
We've seen odder things happen in Cuba haven't we? :dance

[Cubanball]

Here is a report from Cuba (in Spanish):

Publicado: viernes, 28 de julio de 2006
En su casita


El pelotero cubano Yulieski Gourriel desmintió desde su casa en La Habana que haya intentado desertar en Colombia


LA HABANA (EFE)-- El pelotero cubano Yulieski Gourriel dijo hoy que en todo momento pensó en su patria durante su actuación en los Juegos Centroamericanos y del Caribe de Cartagena'06, donde su equipo ganó la medalla de oro.


"Pensé en mi Patria, en los miles de cubanos que esperaban una buena jugada o un excelente batazo", señaló Gourriel en declaraciones a la agencia oficial cubana Prensa Latina realizadas en su ciudad natal, Sancti Spíritus (centro de Cuba), adonde llegó el jueves procedente de Colombia.

Las declaraciones de Gourriel, considerado uno de los mejores bateadores de Cuba, confirman un desmentido del Instituto de Deportes y Educación Física (INDER) de la isla a un rumor que circuló este viernes en la prensa colombiana sobre su posible deserción tras participar en los juegos de Cartagena.

Gourriel bateó un jonrón con hombre en base en el desafío frente a la novena de República Dominicana, juego en el que Cuba se impuso (7-1) y se coronó campeona en esta competición.

El joven deportista explicó que se preocupó mucho por la defensa, pues las condiciones del terreno no eran las ideales, lo que le "mermó en concentración a la hora de batear".

Asimismo, remarcó la buena actuación del equipo cubano, que "se ganó los elogios de la afición colombiana".

"El colectivo lo dio todo para ganar por decimocuarta ocasión la medalla de oro en estas citas regionales", añadió.

Reconoció que fue un torneo "fuerte, de calidad y muy parejo", muestra de los avances de otros países de la región en el béisbol.

Gurriel espera el comienzo de la preparación para el Preolímpico de América, torneo de clasificación para los Juegos Olímpicos de Pekín 2008, cuya sede será La Habana desde el 25 de agosto próximo y el Campeonato Mundial juvenil que se celebrará en septiembre, también en Cuba.

Gourriel, compitió en el primer Clásico Mundial y se desempeña en la tercera base del equipo Sancti Spíritus.

[ozziethesaint]

Here is a report from Cuba (in Spanish):

Publicado: viernes, 28 de julio de 2006
En su casita


El pelotero cubano Yulieski Gourriel desmintió desde su casa en La Habana que haya intentado desertar en Colombia


LA HABANA (EFE)-- El pelotero cubano Yulieski Gourriel dijo hoy que en todo momento pensó en su patria durante su actuación en los Juegos Centroamericanos y del Caribe de Cartagena'06, donde su equipo ganó la medalla de oro.


"Pensé en mi Patria, en los miles de cubanos que esperaban una buena jugada o un excelente batazo", señaló Gourriel en declaraciones a la agencia oficial cubana Prensa Latina realizadas en su ciudad natal, Sancti Spíritus (centro de Cuba), adonde llegó el jueves procedente de Colombia.

Las declaraciones de Gourriel, considerado uno de los mejores bateadores de Cuba, confirman un desmentido del Instituto de Deportes y Educación Física (INDER) de la isla a un rumor que circuló este viernes en la prensa colombiana sobre su posible deserción tras participar en los juegos de Cartagena.

Gourriel bateó un jonrón con hombre en base en el desafío frente a la novena de República Dominicana, juego en el que Cuba se impuso (7-1) y se coronó campeona en esta competición.

El joven deportista explicó que se preocupó mucho por la defensa, pues las condiciones del terreno no eran las ideales, lo que le "mermó en concentración a la hora de batear".

Asimismo, remarcó la buena actuación del equipo cubano, que "se ganó los elogios de la afición colombiana".

"El colectivo lo dio todo para ganar por decimocuarta ocasión la medalla de oro en estas citas regionales", añadió.

Reconoció que fue un torneo "fuerte, de calidad y muy parejo", muestra de los avances de otros países de la región en el béisbol.

Gurriel espera el comienzo de la preparación para el Preolímpico de América, torneo de clasificación para los Juegos Olímpicos de Pekín 2008, cuya sede será La Habana desde el 25 de agosto próximo y el Campeonato Mundial juvenil que se celebrará en septiembre, también en Cuba.

Gourriel, compitió en el primer Clásico Mundial y se desempeña en la tercera base del equipo Sancti Spíritus.

Ok so since I can't read spanish? does this verify that he did defect or not?

[Cubano100%]

They did not defect.

[Cubano100%]

Miguel Perez pitched great.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_07_30_haraax_binaax_1

Amaury Casanas Marti hit his 4th HR..
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_07_30_tulaax_spraax_1
Casanas hits a HR every 14.5 VB.


Alejandro Zuaznabar went 2-5.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_07_30_kptrok_elirok_1


Kendry Morales hit 2 HR and drove in 5.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_07_30_slcaaa_nasaaa_1

[ozziethesaint]

They did not defect.

That's actually a shame to hear. I was looking forward to the prospect of him playing in the Majors. He seemed like such a special player in the WBC

[J.P]

Miguel Perez, pitcher of the week:

Eastern League
Miguel Perez, Binghamton
2-0, 0.64 ERA, 2 G, 2 GS, 14.0 IP, 10 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 4 BB, 13 SO
Perez has won his past five decisions with the red-hot Binghamton Mets, who have won 11 straight games. The 30-year-old Cuban yielded a run on eight hits against New Hampshire on Tuesday before firing six shutout frames against Harrisburg on Sunday.

[J.P]

Any info on Hassan Peña and Osmany Masso? They were drafted by the Nats and Dbacks respectively, but still to appear in any rosters.

[Cubano100%]

Kendry Morales

Game 1

2-4 ave 316
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_01_slcaaa_nasaaa_1


Game 2

2-3 HR, double, ave 321
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_01_slcaaa_nasaaa_2

[CameronCrazies]

http://globalbaseball.wordpress.com/

This guy is in Republica Dominicana on a research assignment and posted this article today. Who has some background info and possible comparisons?

Thanks!

[CameronCrazies]

From the Second Hand Information Department: Yunel is playing second base for the fifth straight game and has looked a little more comfortable in recent days. It looked like a rough transition at first, but the Braves are taking a good look at him and Francisley Bueno in Spring Training. Escobar made a nice pivot on a 6-4-3 double play to end the game last nite with a man on third he hung in there and was taken out by the runner.

IMO Looking at the stats Bueno seems to be the perfect canidate for the lefty specialist in the bullpen next season. Solid minor league starter too.

Canizares didn't play last night because of an awkward slide into third base on a triple. He may be out for a week or less. It seems that every time a Cubano slides they seem to get hurt;)

Cubano 100% - You said in the past that Yunel was not that good of a player in Cuba, but he is a strong prospect here in the US IMO. His 66/51 K/W ratio is stellar.

[Agente Libre]

Escobar is a strong prospect for what? He's hitting .280 with 2 HR and on pace to make over 40 errors in a 162-game ML season. Those numbers don't translate into a starting job in the majors, and his lack of speed will keep him from being much of a bench player.

[jon7jmets]

Yunel Escobar may not have the good stats, but scouts love him. he must have the tools to become somthing good.

[Agente Libre]

Scouts love him? Baseball America didn't even mention him in their mid-season Top 100 update, and he was really only in the Future's Game because he's Cuban and they want as many countries represented as possible.

[Agente Libre]

That Global Baseball blog is kind of interesting, although I've never heard of the author and have no idea what he's trying to accomplish with his studies (maybe writing a book?).

Anyway, those players aren't big prospects. Sergui Linares and Alexis Fonseca defected at least 2 years ago and are on their 3rd or 4th agent. Yuslan Herrera was a good pitcher in Cuba but has not pitched in over 2 years due to suspension. I don't know much about Yohannis Perez other than that I had never heard of him until that blog entry.

It's not hard to get scouts to show up at tryouts in the D.R.; there are probably 150 scouts in D.R. The key question is whether many high-ranking MLB officials were there, and that seems unlikely for a tryout held one day after ML trade deadline.

[jon7jmets]

Most projections i see stay he'll be starter in MLB

Projected:
The ceiling for Yunel is not nearly as high as Elvis Andrus. Yunel was old for someone just drafted but did have some development from his playing days in Cuba. Yunel isn't great at anything but is good at everything and has good on base skills. I think he projects as a possible starter at SS or 3B but can definitely make it as a utility infielder. He will have to improve his power numbers to start at third base and he will have to improve his defense if he wants to be a starter at SS. Edgar Renteria's contract is up after next year and it is thought that Atlanta would like Yunel Escobar to hold down shortstop until Elvis Andrus arrives.

[Agente Libre]

Well, that says he could be a "possible" starter *if* he gains power or gets better defensively, which is basically impossible at his age.

[CameronCrazies]

[QUOTE=jon7jmets]Most projections i see stay he'll be starter in MLB[/QUOTE

The power numbers will come because he obviously has a good eye at the plate. Scout's like his tools and from what I have read (in BA) they project to make the big leagues as a utility guy that can hit. Look how many doubles he has...that's a telling sign that the power will come...gees...he's not Neifi Perez!

I disagree that you can't be taught how to play better in the infield. Who cares how old he is...if he puts in the work he will get better. You can't judge errors in the minor's without being there.

Something tells me he won't be a starter though in Atlanta...defensive range maybe?? Elvis is definitly the shortstop of the future though.

[Agente Libre]

Who cares how old he is? He's about to turn 25 years old, in Double-A, and he's on pace to commit 40 errors. I don't understand how you can realistically predict he'll suddenly start playing better defense.

[J.P]

Agente, I agree with some of your points, but also, with some of Cameron's. There's definitely something that ATL likes about him, if not, they wouldn't be teaching him to play 2B, as to the age factor, and learning to play better on the field, see: Uggla, Dan, and also Ordoñez, Rey(27 errors his firs full year). I don't think Yunel is a top prospect, but the jury is still out on him, he has a shot.

[CameronCrazies]

He's in the right organization for one thing. Yunel is similar to Marcus Giles when he was in the minors. He is a good athlete with no clue how to play the position the easy/right way...he makes everything tougher than it should be. I heard he is having trouble lobbing the throw from 2nd because he is so close to the bag...take it for what it is worth.

He did miss some playing time while waiting to be drafted did he not...that's not the only reason why you can't compare him to other 24 year olds. I bet he began the season a little bit above his defensive ability and he probably needed to be humbled a little.

AA is the proving grounds and so far he is a B prospect...he can hit...280 with a ton of walks is very good. One more hit per week than his average and he is batting .300

[Fermin Lafita]

I heard from an an agent that there was kid named Linares that was throwing 97 in the dominican who may actually get a major league deal, possibly only second to contrera's deal in terms of money



That Global Baseball blog is kind of interesting, although I've never heard of the author and have no idea what he's trying to accomplish with his studies (maybe writing a book?).

Anyway, those players aren't big prospects. Sergui Linares and Alexis Fonseca defected at least 2 years ago and are on their 3rd or 4th agent. Yuslan Herrera was a good pitcher in Cuba but has not pitched in over 2 years due to suspension. I don't know much about Yohannis Perez other than that I had never heard of him until that blog entry.

It's not hard to get scouts to show up at tryouts in the D.R.; there are probably 150 scouts in D.R. The key question is whether many high-ranking MLB officials were there, and that seems unlikely for a tryout held one day after ML trade deadline.

[Cubano100%]

Yuslan Herrera had a better record in Cuba than Sergei Linares. But according to this Blog, Rivera throws really hard and scouts love that.

At least, they are young which is always a plus.




I hope Yunel Escobar makes it. It is important that many Cubans make it so MLB teams will be interested in future defectors.

After Contreras rough beginnings, the market somehow declined. But Betancourt, Soler and Morales reached the majors very quickly. Contreras has pitched the way he knows and El Duque is still battling with the wolves. Abreu is killing the ball too.

[J.P]

El Duke is 5-4, 4.19 ERA with the Mets, pretty good for a fortysomething year old plagued with health problems the past few seasons.

[Agente Libre]

While I root for defectors, I just call 'em like I see 'em, and the best I see out of Yunel Escobar is an occasional call-up as an injury replacement, etc.

If ATL really thought Escobar was ttheir shortstop of the future, he would be playing 100% of his games at SS rather than bouncing between SS, 3B and now 2B. The fact he's being moved around so much is a good indication ATL realizes he's not the stud they thought he was when they gave him $500,000.

His defense is nowhere near good enough to play SS in the majors and his bat, right now, is nowhere near good enough to play 2B or 3B.

As for Sergui Linares, he defected from Cuba over 2 years ago, so I highly doubt he will come anywhere close to Contreras' contract. He was also reportedly injured and couldn't even pitch in the tryout they had a few days ago. At this point, he would be incredibly lucky to sign for $1 million, let alone anything more than that.

[Cubano100%]

There are a couple of photos from Sergei Linares’s side-throwing session.

http://globalbaseball.wordpress.com/2006/08/03/photos-of-sergei-linares/




The Blog only talks about food poisoning.

[Agente Libre]

Anyone know who that blog writer is?

[Cubano100%]

Kendry Morales

Game 1

3-4 with 2 HR and 5 RBI
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_03_albaaa_slcaaa_1


Game 2

1-3
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_03_albaaa_slcaaa_2


Ave 330

[Cubano100%]

Alejandro Zuaznabar 1-5 with a homer and 3 RBI. Ave 252
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_03_blurok_kptrok_1

[Fermin Lafita]

Now that the end appears to be in sight what will the Cuban league look like when all Cubans are able to sign with MLB?
The first team that we'll have to get rid of is Granma. Although this is the area of Cuba I'm from, a team named after Fidel's boat isn't one I will cheer for.
I say no minor league affiliates in Cuba, keep the current 16 teams which will be scouted thoroughly by MLB. Also, as soon as we can, build the Marlins a stadium in Havana and call them the Picuas(Barracudas) de la Habana. I think Barracudas are more "cuban" than Marlins as Cubans love to eat them eventhough they may have siguatera.
what are your thoughts on Cuban baseball in a post communist Cuba and on the name of a Cuban MLB team?

[Agente Libre]

I think a Cuban MLB team would be at least 10-20 years away due to the economics of it. For one thing, an MLB-caliber stadium would probably be a very low priority.

That issue aside, I see Cuban baseball splitting into 2 or maybe even 3 leagues. One would be the national amateur system along the lines of what exists now. Another would be a professional summer league like the Dom. and Ven. Summer Leagues. A third would be a pro winter league, which would rapidly become the top winter league in existence due to Cuba's talent pool, the ability of (former) defectors to go back home to play during the winter, and the attraction players would have to playing in Cuba after it was forbidden for 46 years.

I'd also see MLB teams investing heavily on players and infrastructure (academies, scouts, etc.).

The one wild card is how Cuba reacts to the embargo being lifted. Remember, it's not a given that Cuban players will be free to come here. At least in the short term, the Cuban Baseball Federation could impose rules like Japan, Korea and Mexico that could continue to force Cubans to defect.

[Cubano100%]

Unless I am gone from this world, Cubano100% will be cheering at the Latinoamericano stadium the day El Duque returns to throw the ceremonial first pitch. The ovation will last at least 30 minutes.




Bring back the following teams:

The Cuban Stars
The Cuban Giants
The Cuban Sugar Kings

Include these teams:

The Havana Scorpions
The Havana Lions
The Pinar del Rio Green Sox
The Cienfuegos Elephants
The Matanzas Crocodiles
The Santi Spiritus Roosters
The Villa Clara Orange
The Santiago de Cuba Wasps
Los Guajiros de Camaguey We are going to be the Yankees of Cuba for sure. :crazy

[Cubano100%]

I think a Cuban MLB team would be at least 10-20 years away due to the economics of it. For one thing, an MLB-caliber stadium would probably be a very low priority.

That issue aside, I see Cuban baseball splitting into 2 or maybe even 3 leagues. One would be the national amateur system along the lines of what exists now. Another would be a professional summer league like the Dom. and Ven. Summer Leagues. A third would be a pro winter league, which would rapidly become the top winter league in existence due to Cuba's talent pool, the ability of (former) defectors to go back home to play during the winter, and the attraction players would have to playing in Cuba after it was forbidden for 46 years.

I'd also see MLB teams investing heavily on players and infrastructure (academies, scouts, etc.).

The one wild card is how Cuba reacts to the embargo being lifted. Remember, it's not a given that Cuban players will be free to come here. At least in the short term, the Cuban Baseball Federation could impose rules like Japan, Korea and Mexico that could continue to force Cubans to defect.


Do you think your good friend Bud Selig will grant free agency to the Cuban players at that point or should they go to the Draft? :grouchy

[Kiefer]

Unless I am gone from this world, Cubano100% will be cheering at the Latinoamericano stadium the day El Duque returns to throw the ceremonial first pitch. The ovation will last at least 30 minutes.

I'll be there, too.:clapping

[Kiefer]

Interesting article about Amauri Casanas:

http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=228&p=2&c=552555

[Quicksilv3r]

Wowa... Abreu's hitting .345! :clapping

[Kiefer]

Wowa... Abreu's hitting .345! :clapping

According to Adam Rubin, Abreu isn't ready. Damn, this is really unfair. :grouchy

http://blogs.nydailynews.com/mets/archives/2006/07/minor_league_report_abreu_not.php

[Cubano100%]

More Bla Bla Bla!

[Cubano100%]

Kendry Morales went 2-4 ave 329.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_05_albaaa_slcaaa_1

[Cubano100%]

Jorge Toca is now playing for Cardinals AAA team.

[jon7jmets]

Could Micheal Abreu really play RF or was his agent trying to boost his value up?

[Cubano100%]

I think he used to play RF, LF, 1B and 3B. I am sure he has played the LF and 3B for sure. I have to check with a guy that knows more about him than I do.

J.P. and Kiefer:

Do you guys remember Elias from the Cuban Forum posting that Abreu has played RF too?

[Kiefer]

Yes, I do remember him saying that Abreu could play 3B and LF. I haven't seen him playing these positions, I only saw him playing 1B.

Another article about Amaury Marti: http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060730/SPORTS02/607300403/1002

[J.P]

I really doubt Abreu could play anywhere other than 1B and maybe LF.

[J.P]

Livan Hernandez has just been traded to the Dbacks for a pair of prospects.

[Cubano100%]

I thought some of you may be interested in seing some plays from the Cuban League.

This clip shows some great Cuban players such as German "el Iman/the Magnet" Mesa" who is now retired. German Mesa was the reason why Rey Ordonez (3 Gold Gloves with the Mets) was sitting in the bench. As Cubans, we often wonder how many good players have wasted their careers for nothing back home since 1959.

The Latinoamericano stadium is the home of the Havana Lions (Industriales Blues) and The Metropolitan Warriors (Reds).

The two guys singing are called Buena Fe. This duo is very popular among the youth. The song is called Dreaming in Blue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkgA4Z3YJtw



Let me know what you guys think of this clip.

[ellocoteee]

Where I can see more of German Mesa crazy plays at SS.

[ellocoteee]

I thought some of you may be interested in seing some plays from the Cuban League.

This clip shows some great Cuban players such as German "el Iman/the Magnet" Mesa" who is now retired. German Mesa was the reason why Rey Ordonez (3 Gold Gloves with the Mets) was sitting in the bench. As Cubans, we often wonder how many good players have wasted their careers for nothing back home since 1959.

The Latinoamericano stadium is the home of the Havana Lions (Industriales Blues) and The Metropolitan Warriors (Reds).

The two guys singing are called Buena Fe. This duo is very popular among the youth. The song is called Dreaming in Blue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkgA4Z3YJtw



Let me know what you guys think of this clip.

How about that Victor Mesa catch y CF jumping over the fence.

[Cubano100%]

Thank you Ellocoteee for the clip.

The great Omar Linares from Pinar del Rio also got robbed by German Mesa. The guy in 3B that the ball hit him is Villa Clara Orlando Acebey. After the ball hit his face, there was blood everywhere.

He is one of the best defensive 3B in the last two decades. He is old now.


Your boy Kendry Morales is hitting 330 after going 2-5 with 2 RBI.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_07_rreaaa_slcaaa_1



Alejandro Zuaznabar went 3-6. Ave 257.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_07_elirok_kptrok_1

[J.P]

Player sees Cuban roots through baseballBy FRANK E. DeMARZO
fdemarzo@MiamiHerald.com
His whole life, J.P. Arencibia has dreamed of seeing the land his family came from. This week, he was finally granted that opportunity.

A member of the U.S. National Baseball team, Arencibia traveled to Cuba to play in the International University Sports Federation World Championship Series, which begins play today.

Arencibia, who is of Cuban descent, said the chance to play in the country his family hasn't seen in decades was an indescribable opportunity.

``It's cool just knowing that my family was born there. I never had the opportunity to go back and see where my roots are.''

Arencibia started at catcher for Miami Westminster Christian, where he graduated from in 2004.

The past two years, he has played for the University of Tennessee, batting .352 with 11 home runs, and a team leading 52 RBI this past season, earning a spot on the All-SEC Team.

Arencibia said that he hasn't been following the events too closely, but said he recognized the historic nature of what has been going on recently.

''I haven't really seen much, but I hear that Miami's been going crazy,'' Arencibia said. ``A lot of people have suffered with him in power. I can't say it's hurt me as much as other people.''

As expected, Arencibia said that his family was thrilled when they heard the news.

''They're excited. My mom wanted to go but it's really tough,'' he said. ``They tell me its a beautiful place but it's just run very differently.''

[J.P]

Cubano, in that clip you also get to see Javier Mendez' signature move at CF, I never saw him drop one, and I've never seen someone else do it. You also see German Mesa's stellar double-play partner at 2b, Juan Padilla, one of the best DP combos I've ever seen.

[Cubano100%]

That's right J.P. Maravilla Padilla and German el Iman were one reason why I was rooting for the Blues when I was back home. Valle, El Duque, Arocha, Mendez, Vargas, etc. made such a great team for sure.

[J.P]

Article in BA about the 5 Cubans in the Dominican:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/news/262124.html

[Cubano100%]

J.P.

The link about those 5 Cuban defectors was working earlier but now it isn't. Anyway, this is the full article.





Cuban Defectors Attract Interest In Dominican

By John Manuel

August 7, 2006


Agent Jaime Torres represents high-profile Cuban defectors such as Mariners shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt and White Sox righthander Jose Contreras.

In other words, while he's an agent, not a scout, he does know talent. And he believes he has some future big leaguers among the five Cuban defectors working out in the Dominican Republic.

All five players have been certified by Major League Baseball as free agents, according to Torres. Three of the players--catcher Alexis Fonseca, righthander Serguey Linares and infielder Yunesky Sanchez--can sign at any time, having cleared the bureaucratic process known as unblocking. Two others, righthander Yuslan Herrera and shortstop Yohannis Sanchez, have not yet been "unblocked" but should complete the process sooner rather than later.

Torres said his goal for the group is to have them signed to 2007 contracts in time to go to instructional league with major league organizations, or at least in time for them to be placed in a Caribbean winter league.

"I think some of these players could step in right now in the major leagues and play," Torres said. "You talk about Betancourt, and to me, Yohannis Perez is a very similar type of talent, with similar potential.

Linares has hit 97-98 (mph) before, and I think he's the type of pitcher who could go to spring training next year and break camp with a major league club.

"Herrera, I had one organization put an offer on the table to see if he could help their major league team this year. I say he is ready right now, but he is not unblocked yet, so that is not going to happen. But he was ahead of (Mets righthander) Alay Soler in the rotation at Pinar Del Rio three years ago, and he is a professional, very mature, and he is ready to pitch."

Two scouts familiar with the players told Baseball America that Herrera was the most impressive of the quintet at a recent workout at the Diamondbacks academy in the Dominican, but that Linares and Perez have attracted the most attention of the group from scouts.

Perez, listed with an Oct. 11, 1982 birthday, has the most significant upside, as one scout said Perez once resembled Rickie Weeks due to his build, strong wrists and quick hands. He hit .271 with 10 home runs in more than 1,200 at-bats in his Serie Nacional career.

However, Perez hasn't played in any kind of league in the last two years since his defection, and has put on weight. Torres said Perez probably was 12-15 pounds heavier than he needed to be, checking in at 192 pounds rather than a desired 180-185. Torres said Perez is working to "have the body he needs to have."

"He ran a 6.6 (seconds over 60 yards) down there but I've seen him run better than a 6.4," said one international scout. "He's shown outstanding tools and instincts in the past, good hands--he can play. But what is he now, when he hasn't played for two years? He didn't see any good pitches to hit in the simulated game they played, so it was hard to say anything about his hitting, plus they used Baum (wood composite) bats.

"All four of them ate some bad shrimp the night before, and Perez was throwing up during the game. It was just hard to tell what he is."

Linares, 23, was affected by the food poisoning and didn't pitch except for a side bullpen session. Listed at 6-foot-4, 225 pounds, Linares has had poor results in his Serie Nacional career, going 7-10, 5.59 with nearly as many walks (86) as strikeouts (111) in 163 career innings.

Herrera, 25, has had success in Cuba, with a career 18-7, 3.72 record. The 6-foot-2, 200-pound righthander has shown command of a fringy fastball and what Torres termed an above-average curveball, and one scout liked him a lot. "He's got an above-average split-finger (fastball) and was 88-92," the scout said. "I could see his velocity jumping up to 90-94 once he gets into a system and he could very easily be a No. 4 starter in the big leagues."

Fonseca, 22, is a righthanded-hitting catcher; scouts rate his arm strength as modest, and they don't consider him a significant prospect. Sanchez, 22, is a rangy infielder at 6-foot-3, 205 pounds.

Torres said he's had overtures from several organizations for different players, from the "usual suspects" such as the Mariners, Mets, Red Sox and Yankees but also from other "surprising" organizations. While money obviously is a major factor in where they will sign, Torres said thet right fit also is crucial for players in such unique circumstances as Cuban defectors.

"The most money doesn't necessarily make it the best situation," he said. "Herrera could pitch in the major leagues right now, and I think Linares and Perez could make a club out of spring training. It would be good for them to go somewhere where they have that chance. The orgnaization also has to have people who can help them deal with the cultural and other adjustments they have to make."

An unrelated, newer defector will need time to go through the unblocking process before he can sign. Righthander Kenny Rodriguez defected in mid-July while playing in Ecuador with Cuba's university team. It was considered a surprise defection in that Ecuador has an excellent relationship with Cuba's government. Rodriguez, whose age is reported as being either 20 or 22 (depending on the source), is believed to have fled to Peru.


Rodriguez pitched for Cuba's junior national team in 2003 in Curacao and reportedly has reached the mid-90s with his fastball in the past. More recently, a source who saw him pitch in Ecuador reports the 6-foot-1, 170-pounder sat in the upper 80s, while another source said Rodriguez threw his fastball in the 89-91 mph range. He also throws a slider. Rodriguez has been a below-average pitcher in Cuba's highest-level league, Serie Nacional, and was 6-4, 4.18 this season with 72 strikeouts in 75 innings. While one source likened him to a good college reliever who could be drafted in the first five rounds, another was less impressed with Rodriguez.

"He looked weak to me," said one source who saw Rodriguez both in 2003 in Curacao and again in Ecuador last month. "His stuff was a lot livelier when he was in Curacao. He has a quick arm but he just didn't look good at all in Ecuador."
_________________

[jon7jmets]

KINGSPORT -- Alejandro Zuaznabar, whose fielding at third base has bordered on the spectacular at times, put on a show with his bat last week and earned Applebee's Player of the Week honors for the Kingsport Mets.

Zuaznabar went 8-for-23 (.348) with a home run, four RBI and seven runs scored as the K-Mets moved three games above .500 and stayed in second place behind the Elizabethton Twins. He improved to .257 for the season with 11 doubles and 14 RBI. At one point in the season, he was hovering around the .200 mark, but has shown steady improvement -- as have the K-Mets who have now won 10 of their last 13 games.

Zuaznabar is a first-year free agent from Lahabana, Cuba.

Here are past Applebee's Players of the Week. The award is sponsored by Applebee's of Kingsport, which rewards the player with a free meal each week.

[Cubano100%]

According to Jamie Torres who represent those five Cuban players in the Dominican R., Perez can be compared to Betancourt. This is what Torres said:

"I think some of these players could step in right now in the major leagues and play," Torres said. "You talk about Betancourt, and to me, Yohannis Perez is a very similar type of talent, with similar potential."




These are their stats from Cuba.

Position Players Series AB H AVE 2B 3B HR SLU RBI BB K Fielding AVE


Yuniesky Betancourt 4 1187 333 281 60 23 26 436 148 62 123 973


Yohannis Perez 4 1208 327 271 36 14 10 349 110 103 246 966



What do you guys think?

[Quicksilv3r]

Looking at the stats Betancourt was pretty much better.

[Agente Libre]

Torres' quotes in that article were ridiculous, even for an agent.

Yohannis Perez wasn't anywhere close to as good in Cuba as Betancourt, either offensively or defensively.

Serguei Linares had an ERA over 5.00, and Torres thinks he can go straight to the majors next year?

Total nonsense.

[Cubano100%]

For the record, I think Yohannis Perez was the SS for the Matanzas Crocodiles.

Just remember that he was a SS in Cuba while Betancourt was a 2B.


As for the pitchers, I always said I like Yuslan Herrera better. He pitched in one Super Liga. I will try to find his numbers later.

If Linares can trow that hard or close to it, he may have a future.

[Cubano100%]

When I was in Cuba, I remember one day that Jose Contreras came in relief for Pinar del Rio against my hometown team Camaguey. He was really young and a prospect at the time. He only could throw fastballs and sliders. Over the years, he developed into a good pitcher. I do not have the means to look for Contreras's numbers at the beginning of his career. I am sure they were not pretty. Therefore, Linares's numbers in Cuba may be misleading. He is young and played only two seasons. Again if he can throw that hard, he may be able to develop into something good.



As for Yoennis Perez, he is a much better hitter than former Mets Rey Ordonez. Even his fielding % is better.



Position Players Series AB H AVE 2B 3B HR SLU RBI BB K Fielding AVE


Reynaldo Ordonez 4 712 186 261 23 4 4 322 71 23 76 963


Yohannis Perez 4 1208 327 271 36 14 10 349 110 103 246 966






So, what do you guys think now?


I think he has a chance. Consider the following also. At the time Ordonez was playing, Cuba was using aluminum bats. Cuba finally switched to wooden bats a few year ago so the transition should be easier for recent players.

[Cubano100%]

In the last few years, the Pinar del Rio Green Sox has been dismantled by desertions. The following players have defected:

Pitchers

Danys Baez (MLB)
Jose Contreras (MLB)
Alain Soler (MLB)
Ramiro Chamizo
Sergei Linares (Free Agent)
Yuslan Herrera (Free Agent)



Position Players

2B/3B Yobal Duenas (played for Yankees AA in 2005)
OF Juan Miguel Miranda (In the D.R. awaiting to become a free agent)
2B Evel Batisda (Drafted by the Mariners a few years back. I think he is out of baseball.)




What is Pedro Lazo thinking?


http://photos.signonsandiego.com/gallery1.5/albums/World-Baseball-Classic/2006_20060316_ASMT254204_UTI0890083.jpg

[Kiefer]

What is Pedro Lazo thinking?

Let me guess. ;)

Fidel loves me, I can't betray him

[Cubano100%]

Will the Braves call up Francisley Bueno in September?

A question from a fan to a Braves insider:

Do you think if we fall back even farther the next few games we will start to see more young guys come up and get a chance. Like i dont see any reason why they wouldnt bring Lerew or Bueno up to fill one of the rotation spots when 1, we have nobody else and 2, he could gain valuable experience for next year?



They might bring up some people in September who are on the 40-man roster. But a guy like Bueno will not be brought up. He doesn't have to be protected this winter, so more than likely he'll be invited to camp as a non-roster player next spring. You don't want to take up 40-man roster spots until you have to.



I am already looking forward to the 2007 season. :grouchy

[Quicksilv3r]

^
(Edited: Stinks) indeed.

[Cubano100%]

Contreras three-hits Tigers in opener.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20060811&content_id=1604806&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

[Cubano100%]

Kendry Morales is injured and probably won't be a call up in September.

He is out with a strained oblique muscle and will likely miss another few games.

[Cubano100%]

Eduardo Morlan:

Morlan is a hard throwing 20 year old who was a third round pick in the 2004 draft. Morlan split his 2005 season between Elizabethton (2W-0L, 22.0ip, 0.82era, 30K/6BB, 0.55WHIP) and Beloit (4W-4L, 51.1ip, 4.38era, 55K/31BB, 1.36WHIP). This season Morlan has been used as both a starter and out of Beloit’s bullpen (3W-4L, 70.2ip, 2.55era, 81K/29BB, 1.17WHIP). He is another All-Star who recently spent some time on the DL and we can expect that the Twins will be very careful to protect his young arm as he reportedly throws a fastball that approaches 100 mph.

[Martin Dihigo]

Cubano,

How old is Morlan and where is he from?

r

[Cubano100%]

Dihigo:

The first articule is from last year and the second is from this year. He is from Havana. He came when he was 12. His family left Cuba to Spain and latter came to the USA.

http://www.freewebs.com/gcltwins/news/2005/morlan_062005.html

http://minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060813&content_id=117415&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp

[Cubano100%]

Michel Abreu homer again.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_15_bowaax_binaax_1


Francisley Bueno is pitching another good game. His record is not great but his ERA is. Bueno also had a hit raising his ave to 278. Caballeros como batean los pitchers Cubanos!
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_15_msbaax_tenaax_1



Amaury Casanas Marti homer. He strikes out too much.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_15_mroaax_spraax_1

[Quicksilv3r]

Most of the so called power hitters do.

[J.P]

El Duke allows 11 ER in 4 innings :eek: So much for saving the bullpen :noidea

[Quicksilv3r]

Yup. Horrible outing. I think it was the worst of his MLB career.

[J.P]

Flying under the radar is JC Muñiz in AA for the Marlins, after defecting, this guy was stuck in Brazil for a good 2-3 years, he finally makes it to the States last year, goes straight to AA and hits 280, 9, 43 in 106 games. He starts this season on the DL, when he comes out, he goes to A+ and then AA, struggles in both(he didnt have spring training) he gets sent down again, and then called up again, and hes been on a tear lately, he went 2 for 3 with 2 HR's yesterday, he now has 9, and raised his AVE to 263.

[J.P]

Following up on this article:

His whole life, J.P. Arencibia has dreamed of seeing the land his family came from. This week, he was finally granted that opportunity.

A member of the U.S. National Baseball team, Arencibia traveled to Cuba to play in the International University Sports Federation World Championship Series, which begins play today.

Arencibia, who is of Cuban descent, said the chance to play in the country his family hasn't seen in decades was an indescribable opportunity.

``It's cool just knowing that my family was born there. I never had the opportunity to go back and see where my roots are.''

Arencibia started at catcher for Miami Westminster Christian, where he graduated from in 2004.

The past two years, he has played for the University of Tennessee, batting .352 with 11 home runs, and a team leading 52 RBI this past season, earning a spot on the All-SEC Team.

Arencibia said that he hasn't been following the events too closely, but said he recognized the historic nature of what has been going on recently.

''I haven't really seen much, but I hear that Miami's been going crazy,'' Arencibia said. ``A lot of people have suffered with him in power. I can't say it's hurt me as much as other people.''

As expected, Arencibia said that his family was thrilled when they heard the news.

''They're excited. My mom wanted to go but it's really tough,'' he said. ``They tell me its a beautiful place but it's just run very differently.''

-----------
J.P. Arencibia (Tennessee) capped his outstanding tournament with a two-run homer in the first inning, his fourth of the tournament and ninth of the summer. He was named tournament MVP as he went 14-for-34 (.412) in eight games with three doubles, two triples and 23 RBIs to go with his home runs.

PS: I wonder if the Cuban Press has mentioned his parents are Miami Cuban mafia member??

[Cubano100%]

Former Marlin RHP Hansel Izquierdo is the ERA leader in Mexico.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=l_pit&lid=125

[Cubano100%]

Jose Canseco walked 5 and hit 4 batters in first professional pitching start for the Long Beach Armada. :noidea

[Cubano100%]

Players of Cuban Heritage on 2006 Major and Minor League Rosters




2006 Major League Players on Team Rosters

Andy Abad Cincinnati Reds OF
Robert Andino Florida Marlins SS
Bronson Arroyo Boston Red Sox/Cincinnati Reds P
Danys Baez Los Angeles Dodgers/Atlanta Braves P
Yuniesky Betancourt Seattle Mariners SS
Vinnie Chulk Toronto Blue Jays P
Jose Ariel Contreras Chicago White Sox P
Ryan Freel Cincinnati Reds 2B
Alex Gonzalez Philadelphia Phillies SS
Luis Gonzalez Arizona Diamondbacks LF
Livan Hernandez Washington Nationals/Arizona Diamondbacks P
Michel Hernandez St. Louis Cardinals C
Orlando Hernandez Arizona Diamondbacks/New York Mets P
Raul Ibañez Seattle Mariners LF
Mike Lowell Boston Red Sox 3B
Eli Marrero Colorado Rockies/New York Mets OF
Kendry Morales Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim 1B
Henry Owens New York Mets P
Orlando Palmeiro Houston Astros LF
Branyan Peña Atlanta Braves C
Eduardo Perez Cleveland Indians/Seattle Mariners 1B
Jorge Piedra Colorado Rockies OF
Jorge Posada New York Yankees C
Alay Soler New York Mets P

Coaches
Carlos Alfonso San Francisco Giants Admin Coach
Fredi Gonzalez Atlanta Braves 3rd Base Coach
Carlos Tosca Arizona Diamondbacks Third Base Coach

Umpires
Angel Hernandez
Lazaro Diaz




2006 Minor League Players on Team Rosters * Released


Andy Abad Louisville Bats (AAA) Cincinnatti Reds OF
Michel Abreu Binghampton Mets (AA) New York Mets 1B
Nick Alvarez Las Vegas 51s (AAA) Los Angeles Dodgers IF
Roberto Alvarez DSL Braves (R) Atlanta Braves OF
Robert Andino Albuquerque Isotopes (AAA) Florida Marlins SS
Saydel Beltran Inland Empire 66ers (A-Adv) Seattle Mariners P
Francisley Bueno Mississippi Braves (AA) Atlanta Braves P
Barbaro Cañizares Mississippi Braves (AA) Atlanta Braves OF
Jose Angel Cordero Beloit Snappers (A) Minnesota Twins P
Juan Carlos Diaz * Memphis Redbirds (AAA) St. Louis Cardinals 1B
Yobal Dueñas * Tuneros de San Luis (AAA) Mexican League 2B
Yunel Escobar Mississippi Braves (AA) Atlanta Braves SS
Jared Fernandez Nashville Sounds (AAA) Milwaukee Brewers P
Rafael Galbizo Greensboro Grasshoppers (A) Florida Marlins P
Gary Galvez Wilmington Blue Rocks (A-Adv) Boston Red Sox P
David Gil New Orleans Zephyrs (AAA) Washington Nationals P
Gio Gonzalez Reading Phillies (AA) Philadelphia Phillies P
Ricky Gutierrez * Portland Beavers (AAA) San Diego Padres SS
Juan Gutierrez Delmarva Shorebirds (A) Baltimore Orioles C
Michel Hernandez Memphis Redbirds (AAA) St. Louis Cardinals C
Javi Herrera Kingston Indina (A-Adv) Cleveland Indians C
Hansel Izquierdo Cafeteros de Cordova (AAA) Mexican League P
Johan Limonta Wisconsin Timber Rattlers (A-Adv) Seattle Mariners OF
Amaury Casañas Marti Springfield Cardinals (AA) St. Louis Cardinals OF
Ransel Melgarejo * High Desert Mavericks (A) Kansas City Royals OF
Kendry Morales Salt Lake Bees ( AAA) Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim 1B
Eduardo Morlan Beloit Snappers ( A) Minnesota Twins P
Juan Carlos Muñiz Carolina Mudcats (AA) Florida Marlins OF
Vladimir Nuñez Charlotte Knights (AAA) Chicago White Sox P
Henry Owens Binghampton Mets (AA) New York Mets P
Branyan Peña Richmond Braves (AAA) Atlanta Braves C
Joel Perez GLC Yankees (R) New York Yankees OF
Josue Perez AZL Rangers (R) Texas Rangers OF
Kenny Perez Tucson Sidewinders (AAA) Arizona Diamondbacks IF
Miguel Perez Binghampton Mets (AA) New York Mets P
Jorge Piedra Colorado Springs (AAA) Colorado Rockies OF
Mayque Quintero * St. Lucie Mets (A-Adv) New York Mets P
Maels Rodriguez Missoula Ospreys (R) Arizona Diamondbacks P
Alex Sanchez * Louisville Bats (AAA) Cincinnatti Reds OF
Alay Soler Norfolk Tides (AAA) New York Mets P
Roberto Sotolongo Daytona Cubs (A-Adv) Chicago Cubs P
Michael Tejera Fresno Grizzlies (AAA) San Francisco Giants P
Jorge Luis Toca Olmecas de Tabasco (AAA) Mexican League 1B
Camilo Vazquez Chattanooga Lookouts (AA) Cincinnati Reds P
Julio Cesar Villalon * Sarasota Reds (A-Adv) Cincinnati Reds P
Yahmed Yema Greenville Drive (A) Boston Red Sox OF
Alejandro Zuaznabar Kingsport Mets (R) New York Mets IF


2006 Independent League Players on Team Rosters

Raul Valdes New Jersey Jackals CANAM League P
Rolando Viera Brockton Rox CANAM League P
Saul Gonzalez * New Haven Cutters CANAM League P
Jose Canseco Long Beach Armada Golden Baseball League OF
Carlos Rodriguez Reno Silver Sox Golden Baseball League OF
Maikel Jova Joliet JackHammers Northern League OF
Yoankis Turino San Diego Surf Dawgs Golden Baseball League P



2006 International League Players on Team Rosters


Alex Cabrera Seibu Lions Japanese Pacific League OF
Alex Ochoa Chunichi Dragons Japanese Central League OF
Enorbel Ramirez Solingen Alligators Bundesliga (Germany) P

[Quicksilv3r]

Interesting guy that Enorbel who is playing in German Bundeslinga.

I mean, the guy had an ERA of 0.24 at some point, meaning he was plain dominant, but still there's no record of him playing in Cuban or any other "big" league.
I'd be interested to see how he'd manage against A, AA or AAA teams in US. Either there's a gem in Germany or then the skill difference is huge!

[Agente Libre]

He might be a great player but the skill difference is huge. (I'm not aware of a single German in pro ball.)

[J.P]

Castillo, Ambriz combine on no-hitter
Missoula duo fans 14 in 5-0 blanking of Casper

Osbek Castillo and Hector Ambriz have become a formidable duo for the Missoula Osprey.
Five days after combining for a team record-tying 17 strikeouts, Castillo and Ambriz partnered on the Pioneer League's first no-hitter of the season Sunday as the Osprey blanked the Casper Rockies, 5-0, at Mike Lansing Field.

Castillo (4-0) issued a two-out walk to Austin Rauch in the first inning, then retired the last 16 batters he faced. He tied a league record by recording eight consecutive strikeouts, a streak that ended when Radames Nazario flied out to right field leading off the sixth.

Castillo, a 25-year-old right-hander who won a gold medal with Cuba at the 2004 Olympics, fanned 11, giving him a two-game total of 23. On Tuesday, he allowed only an infield hit over six innings in a 3-0 whitewash of Great Falls.

"That could have gone for an error," noted Osprey pitching coach Mel Stottlemyre Jr. "Today, he only threw 67 pitches. In terms of pitch count, he wasn't done. But we've got orders to follow. Ambriz is to pitch the same day Castillo pitches, and we want to get him 45 pitches."

While Castillo uses a curveball and a change-up to set up his fastball, Ambriz is a power pitcher who routinely hits 95 mph on the radar gun.

"He makes hitters look silly with his curve and change, and I come in with my fastball," Ambriz said. "I like to challenge hitters. I threw my fastball for strikes (today) and mostly, I just let the defense work behind me."

Missoula's defense didn't have a whole lot of work as the Rockies hit just two balls out of the infield.

"It's obviously a pitching coach's dream when you get to throw those two guys out there," Stottlemyre said. "It is so unique. You throw a guy in there who's basically an offspeed pitcher. He never lets hitters sit on one particular pitch. Then you have a power pitcher, with a power slider, who goes at hitters in a little different fashion. It makes it tough on hitters, especially in this league."

Ambriz set down the first six batters he faced before Nazario reached on third baseman Andrew Fie's throwing error to begin the ninth. Unfazed, the 22-year-old right-hander struck out Derek Kinzler and got Maruis Loupadiere to bounce into a game-ending double play.

Asked if he felt any added pressure coming in to a no-hitter, Ambriz said, "When you look at the scoreboard, you see all those zeros, there's always a lot of pressure."

The no-hitter was the first in the Pioneer League since Aug. 5, 2005, when Simon Beresford and three Helena Brewers relievers defeated the Billings Mustangs, 11-0.

Since moving into the starting rotation at the end of July, Castillo is 3-0 with a 1.38 ERA and 35 strikeouts in 26 innings.

"Should he not be here? Yeah," Stottlemyre said of the 33rd-round pick in this year's draft. "He's pitched his way out of this league. But we didn't know what we would get. He was kind of a sight unseen guy. He's going to have the opportunity next year to come into Spring Training and make a club at a much higher level."

Ambriz, who notched his second save, lowered his ERA to 1.53. He's unscored upon in his last four appearances, a span of 11 2/3 innings.

"Ambriz is someone the organization thinks very highly of," Stottlemyre said. "He'll have an opportunity over a full season to show what he can do at a higher level."

Missoula (14-8) opened the scoring in the fourth as Shea McFeely drew a one-out walk, stole second and come home on John Hester's single to left field.

The Osprey added some insurance in the seventh on RBI singles by David Christensen, Gerardo Parra and McFeely, who went 2-for-4.

Starter Yull Silano (3-5) was the hard-luck loser for the Rockies (7-14). He gave up one run on four hits in six innings with two walks and six strikeouts.

[Agente Libre]

Castillo defected two months before the 2004 Olympics, so he doesn't have a gold medal.

[Cubano100%]

Who cares about Olympic Gold Medals?

It is all about money.

Castillo is 25 so it was time for him to earn some $ US. :laugh

Right Agente?


Pedro Lazo (Gold Medals) vs Osbeck Castillo ( $ US).


Castillo is not even close in talent to Lazo, but he has more vision for sure.

[Agente Libre]

Gold medals are only good for eBay.

[J.P]

Contreras on the way down, maybe the overuse in Cuba is catching up to him.

[Quicksilv3r]

I think that it's just mentality problems. An arm abuse doesn't just pop up from a month to another.

[Mattingly]

Players of Cuban Heritage on 2006 Major and Minor League Rosters

2006 Major League Players on Team Rosters

Jorge Posada New York Yankees C
http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/posadjo01.shtml

Jorge was born in Puerto Rico. I've never known him to be of Cuban descent. Does he have a Cuban or half-Cuban parent?
Contreras on the way down, maybe the overuse in Cuba is catching up to him.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=5373

Ever since July 31, he's had ups & downs. On Aug 6th, he gave up 6 runs in 6.2 innings. On the 11th, he had a complete-game shutout to Detroit. Then on the 16th, he allows 7 runs to KC in only 6.2 innings. Then on the 21st, it's 5 innings, 7 ERs. That's pretty inconsistent.

They're supposed to have a very good pitch coach, so perhaps missing a start may be a good thing for him. Either that or they'd better check how sound his arm & elbow are.

[Cubano100%]

Mattingly:


Former Cuban big lguer Leo Posada who played in the 60's is his uncle or grampa.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8823477889
http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/posadle01.shtml

[Cubano100%]

Before the all-star game, Contreras had an injury. Since then, he has not been the same.


Many of us overlook the following fact:

Jose Contreras is in his 14th season.

10 in Cuba
4 in the USA

Should we expect more greatness out of him?

I think he is getting to the point where he will be an OK pitcher.

His first 10 seasons where tough in Cuba. In the past, Cuban pitchers were overused. His standard of living in Cuba also can not be compared to his new life as a MLguer.


Note: Beginning this season, there will be a pitch count limiting pitchers to a 100 pitch count per outing.

[Cubano100%]

Michel Abreu (Mets AA) has 67 RBI in 103 games.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Abreu%20%201B&pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=490314

[Mattingly]

Mattingly:

Former Cuban big lguer Leo Posada who played in the 60's is his uncle or grampa.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8823477889
http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/posadle01.shtml
I saw "Leo Posada" amongst the "Posadas", but hadn't realized they were related. Interesting.

Anyway, off-topic, but the Yankee Stadium chant for Posada is "Hip-Hip" by one person and "JORGE" by the crowd. :p Cheesy, but it makes the folks in the Bronx happy. :)

[Cubano100%]

Amaury Casanas Marti

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/2006/08/22/XUPumhon.jpg

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060822&content_id=121405&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp


"Sticking with a custom he started when he came to America, Marti will talk little of his journey from Cuba to the United States. When questions were asked about his past, he said little, quietly mentioning he still has family -- including his parents, brother and son -- in Cuba."



The above paragraph is the most important one. I hope he can get his family out soon.

He struckout a lot in Cuba. I hope he somehow reduces his SO totals by watching his own videos but I doubt it. If he does, he may be dancing with the wolves next year.

[Mattingly]

Before the all-star game, Contreras had an injury. Since then, he has not been the same.

Many of us overlook the following fact:

Jose Contreras is in his 14th season.

10 in Cuba
4 in the USA

* * *

Note: Beginning this season, there will be a pitch count limiting pitchers to a 100 pitch count per outing.
Buenos dias, Sr Cubano! :D

I don't know much about life in Cuba as to how the pitchers are treated. I also don't know much about their workout techniques.

What are the methods used by some of the pitchers in Cuba to insure that they have a lengthy career? In the USA, when I hear about Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine, these guys have been around for quite awhile.

In Don Cooper, the White Sox have one of the best pitching coaches around. I'm quite sure that whatever he's dealing with, be it mechanics, confidence, etc, it'll likely be taken care of.

[Cubano100%]

Mattingly:

In the USA or professional sports, athletes are very well taken care of. If a pitching coach or a manager overworks a pitcher often, they will be fired by the owner and GM. Nobody wants to be responsible for causing a pitcher to blows up his elbow or shoulder.



In Cuba, players do not belong to anyone. They are not properties like MLB players are in the sense that they are under contract to their teams and owner. If a pitcher is overworked in Cuba, that is OK. Nobody cares weather or not he blows up his elbow. There is no accountability to put this in prospective. It is also a kind of old school mentality that existed in the Majors long time ago.


It is good that beginning next season, pitchers will be limited to 100 pitches per outing.

I hope I was able to explain this to you. Maybe somebody else such as Agente can expand on this.

Note: I saw the Boston massacre recently. You must be real happy.

[Cubano100%]

This is also another important paragragh about the Amaury Casanas Marti articles above:


"During Spring Training this year, Marti bounced around in Florida, trying to catch the eye of a Major League club. A friend eventually asked him if he wanted to try out for the Cardinals."

Marti lost 3 or 4 months this year while waiting for the Draft. He defected a while ago and bounced between Mexico and the USA. I believe he lost last year as well.

I asked myself the following:

Why is MLB putting so much hurdles against Cuban players?

Aren't Cuban players the ones facing the most difficult road to get to the Majors? Ex: defections, leaving their families behind, arriving old, arriving in the middle of the season when teams already have their budget and plans for the season, etc.


I certainly do not want to create any controversy here, but this seems so unamerican on MLB behave. This is even more evidence when MLB has a different process for the Japanese players. The process for the Japanese players is great because they have different and special circumstances. But how about the Cubans?


I hope there is a writer out there for a major newspaper that is willing to make some research about this. In the meantime, I will keep writing about the Cuban players plight which is my plight too as a fan of this game.

[Cubanball]

Jorge Posada was born in Puerto Rico to a Cuban Father and Dominican mother. Leo Posada was his uncle. Read More:

JORGE POSADA
The New York Yankees Catcher met with the Latino Press at Yankee Stadium July 28th to discuss, among other things, his national and ethnic identity.

“Vamos estar claro,” (Let’s be clear) Jorge responded. “Yes, I feel Cuban and yes I feel Dominican. I grew up in a Cuban community in Puerto Rico and during the summer days I would play with children born in Puerto Rico of Cuban parents. I would love to go to Cuba. I have never been there. I always went to Dominicana (Dominican Republic). I have family in Santo Domingo where I spent my summers as a child. Now in the off-season I visit there in the winter. On my mother’s side my relatives live in Dominicana; on my father’s side, thank God, with the Cuban Exile, they all have lived in Puerto Rico.”

[Cubanball]

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060821&content_id=120952&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp

[J.P]

If the article by Cubanball is not clear enough, Posada's father is Cuban, his mom is Dominican, he was born in Puero Rico. Former big leaguer Leo Posada is his uncle.

[jalbright]

Why is MLB putting so much hurdles against Cuban players?

Aren't Cuban players the ones facing the most difficult road to get to the Majors? Ex: defections, leaving their families behind, arriving old, arriving in the middle of the season when teams already have their budget and plans for the season, etc.


I certainly do not want to create any controversy here, but this seems so unamerican on MLB behave. This is even more evidence when MLB has a different process for the Japanese players. The process for the Japanese players is great because they have different and special circumstances. But how about the Cubans?

First off, the approach to the Japanese players doesn't favor the players nearly as much as it favors the Japanese owners. The rules and practices help keep Japanese players in Japan until at least their primes, sometimes past them.

Second, there is the whole issue of politics which rears its ugly head so often when the US and Cuba are involved. Look at the brouhaha over Cuba's involvement in the World Baseball Cup. Now I know defectors are a different situation, but ever since that dumping of Cuban undesirables among a mass flotilla of emigres to the US and all the problems that came with it (IIRC the whole group, good and bad together, was called Marielitos), there is special attention paid to Cuban emigres. I'm not about to argue that any of this is right, but it exists.

Third, with all the political issues, I think MLB is ignorant of the players in Cuba. They could get around some of the problems by using Latin scouts. But given the unpredictablity of who will and who won't defect, it's hard to justify a heavy effort to scout Cuban players--especially since the Cuban government wouldn't be too receptive to such scouting, either.

Finally, MLB's owners would prefer less free agents rather than more of them. They're especially leery of Cuban players, because there are quite a few cases where they seriously overpaid for guys who have either not played outside of Cuba or at least haven't played a lot of games against AAA or higher quality ballplayers outside of Cuba.

None of this is to say Cuban defectors don't face exceptional hardship to try and make it within the MLB system. They do. I think that a Cuban defectors have the hardest road to the majors of any group of people. But when you look at the situation, I don't think there's much mystery as to why it is that way, unfair as it is.

Jim Albright

[J.P]

I think that it's just mentality problems. An arm abuse doesn't just pop up from a month to another.

Quicksilver, as Cubano said, his inestability started after his stint in the DL, he was one of the most dominant pitchers in the game up to that point, after that, hes been merely OK. Check the stats.

About the overuse of Cuban pitchers, I read once that while playing for the Cuban National Team (I can't recall right now, if they were talking about Contreras or Pedro Lazo, but for the point me and Cubano are making, is the same) he started the semi-finals game on a Friday, and then the Finals on Sunday.

[J.P]

First off, the approach to the Japanese players doesn't favor the players nearly as much as it favors the Japanese owners. The rules and practices help keep Japanese players in Japan until at least their primes, sometimes past them.

Second, there is the whole issue of politics which rears its ugly head so often when the US and Cuba are involved. Look at the brouhaha over Cuba's involvement in the World Baseball Cup. Now I know defectors are a different situation, but ever since that dumping of Cuban undesirables among a mass flotilla of emigres to the US and all the problems that came with it (IIRC the whole group, good and bad together, was called Marielitos), there is special attention paid to Cuban emigres. I'm not about to argue that any of this is right, but it exists.

Third, with all the political issues, I think MLB is ignorant of the players in Cuba. They could get around some of the problems by using Latin scouts. But given the unpredictablity of who will and who won't defect, it's hard to justify a heavy effort to scout Cuban players--especially since the Cuban government wouldn't be too receptive to such scouting, either.

Finally, MLB's owners would prefer less free agents rather than more of them. They're especially leery of Cuban players, because there are quite a few cases where they seriously overpaid for guys who have either not played outside of Cuba or at least haven't played a lot of games against AAA or higher quality ballplayers outside of Cuba.

None of this is to say Cuban defectors don't face exceptional hardship to try and make it within the MLB system. They do. I think that a Cuban defectors have the hardest road to the majors of any group of people. But when you look at the situation, I don't think there's much mystery as to why it is that way, unfair as it is.

Jim Albright

I dont see how the Mariel boatlift affects none of this, as a matter of fact, Cubans immigrants are given special attention, since we are political refugees, we get the work permit right away, and we get the residency after one year, we are covered under the "Ley de ajuste Cubano". Now, Cuban players cant be signed or scouted in their country, they have to defect in order to just get a chance at proffessional baseball, but if they stablish residency in the US, MLB makes them go through the draft!! So they are basically forced to try to stablish residency in a third country, some, missing years of their prime, while trying to get the necessary papers. At least Japanese players spend their prime earning proffesional salaries and living like celebrities in their homeland, and when their contracts finally allow them to come over, teams can enter a bidding war for their services without any hassles, while Cubans, who had to leave everything behind just to get a chance are forced to the Draft, MLB doesnt allow them to sell their services to the best buyer, like Cubano said, unamerican indeed.

[J.P]

"Finally, MLB's owners would prefer less free agents rather than more of them. They're especially leery of Cuban players, because there are quite a few cases where they seriously overpaid for guys who have either not played outside of Cuba or at least haven't played a lot of games against AAA or higher quality ballplayers outside of Cuba."

--Jim, I agree with you, but are you trying to say that MLB is protecting its poor little owners against the mighty defector who is trying to rip them off???? If teams dont know enough about the player, then teams should individually evaluate the risks and the potential rewards of signing a basically unknown player, and let market forces determine how much him is worth??? I know, I know, the rich teams are going to end up signing all the good defectors, since they are the ones who can offer the most, but isn't that what goes on every year in the free agent market??? or in the fields of Venezuela, Dom Rep, etc, richest teams get the best players. I'm sorry, but I dont find one valid point in your article that justifies why Cuban defectors who stablish residency in the US are forced to go through the draft.

[Agente Libre]

Jim -- I wouldn't say MLB's system favors the Japanese owners over the Japanese players. It might seem unfair that Japanese players must play 9 years before being eligible to leave Japan*, but that's a collectively-bargained issue between Japanese players and Japanese owners; MLB has nothing to do with it. (*Japanese players also have the option of "retiring" for one year, which voids the 9-year requirement.)

While 9 years might seem like a long time, at least Japanese players have free agency at the end of those 9 years. Players like Jose Contreras, El Duque, Amaury Casanas, Michel Abreu, etc., all played 9 years in Cuba but were still forced to jump through hoops to sign MLB contracts rather than being recognized (and welcomed) as pro-level free agents.


J.P. -- Well said, in both posts.


Cubano -- I don't have much to add. You explained it perfectly yesterday or the day before. The mentality in Cuba is to ride pitchers as hard as necessary and if a pitcher breaks down, they'll find someone else. Those $20/month salaries aren't much of a deterrent to overuse. (Also, I suspect part of the current mentality is to use a pitcher as much as necessary today because he might defect tomorrow.)

[Cubano100%]

Second, there is the whole issue of politics which rears its ugly head so often when the US and Cuba are involved. Look at the brouhaha over Cuba's involvement in the World Baseball Cup. Now I know defectors are a different situation, but ever since that dumping of Cuban undesirables among a mass flotilla of emigres to the US and all the problems that came with it (IIRC the whole group, good and bad together, was called Marielitos), there is special attention paid to Cuban emigres. I'm not about to argue that any of this is right, but it exists.


Third, with all the political issues, I think MLB is ignorant of the players in Cuba. They could get around some of the problems by using Latin scouts. But given the unpredictablity of who will and who won't defect, it's hard to justify a heavy effort to scout Cuban players--especially since the Cuban government wouldn't be too receptive to such scouting, either.


Jim Albright


Your statement about the Marielitos has nothing to do with baseball. Are baseball players criminals now?
Some players may be, but I do not think this is an issue. There are players who commit crimes anywhere in the world.

By the way, 120 000 Cubans came during El Mariel. Around 2000-4000 were criminals and had mental disorders who were sent by Castro. How about the rest? Why do we keep pointing out at these small group as oppose as the large contributions that the rest have done?



Cuban teams have been competing against top professional players from Asia and some decent USA teams filled with high ranked prospects and veteran AAA and AA players. These International tournamnets are scouted too.
How about the tryouts before signing a defector?

I am not saying they should get a 100 million contract, but at least the chance to negotiate with different teams. More importantly, they should be able to sign right away without losing extended time away from baseball.

[jalbright]

"Finally, MLB's owners would prefer less free agents rather than more of them. They're especially leery of Cuban players, because there are quite a few cases where they seriously overpaid for guys who have either not played outside of Cuba or at least haven't played a lot of games against AAA or higher quality ballplayers outside of Cuba."

--Jim, I agree with you, but are you trying to say that MLB is protecting its poor little owners against the mighty defector who is trying to rip them off???? If teams dont know enough about the player, then teams should individually evaluate the risks and the potential rewards of signing a basically unknown player, and let market forces determine how much him is worth??? I know, I know, the rich teams are going to end up signing all the good defectors, since they are the ones who can offer the most, but isn't that what goes on every year in the free agent market??? or in the fields of Venezuela, Dom Rep, etc, richest teams get the best players. I'm sorry, but I dont find one valid point in your article that justifies why Cuban defectors who stablish residency in the US are forced to go through the draft.

I'm describing what I see is the case, not trying to justify it. The question I am responding to was why is it this way, not why should it be this way.

And yes, MLB is the owners--so it works to protect them. And the owners don't like a free market--they never have, and they probably never will. If you want to ask why the player's union isn't taking a stand against this, I can't answer, but it probably starts with the fact there aren't a lot of Cuban defectors among its members--and the ones that are, have made already it through the minefield.

Jim Albright

[Cubano100%]

Another interesting paragragh about Marti's article is the following:

"A few years ago, Marti was playing for Cuba's best league and someone asked if he wanted to be smuggled to the United States."


I certainly pray for anyone who does this.

[jalbright]

Jim -- I wouldn't say MLB's system favors the Japanese owners over the Japanese players. It might seem unfair that Japanese players must play 9 years before being eligible to leave Japan*, but that's a collectively-bargained issue between Japanese players and Japanese owners; MLB has nothing to do with it. (*Japanese players also have the option of "retiring" for one year, which voids the 9-year requirement.)

While 9 years might seem like a long time, at least Japanese players have free agency at the end of those 9 years. Players like Jose Contreras, El Duque, Amaury Casanas, Michel Abreu, etc., all played 9 years in Cuba but were still forced to jump through hoops to sign MLB contracts rather than being recognized (and welcomed) as pro-level free agents.


You're absolutely mistaken about the option of retiring. The current posting system was created precisely to close that loophole. The major leagues signed off on this system, don't tell me that they had nothing to do with it--it's part of their "Working Agreement" with the Japanese owners. Also, they choose not to actively compete for Japanese high school and college talent. That's not a part of any collective bargaining agreement, and it effectively removes the choice for such players. It's not as onerous as what the Cubans face, but it's hardly the free market at work.

The major leagues don't want to pay them or Japanese players as pro level free agents. That's the root of the problem, and one which few outside sources other than the MLBPA can do much to affect. That's the group which should be standing up against these things, but they're more interested in their own contracts and jobs than paving the way for guys who aren't members yet. Don't expect anything to change if that attitude of the players who make up the union doesn't change.

Jim Albright

[J.P]

Jim, you might be right, it is in the hand's of the player's union. But we all gotta do our part, as far as me, other than writing a few emails to the MLBPA, all I can do is comment here about the unfairness I see, and hope it catches the eyes of someone related to the MLBPA, instead of just sit back and say "It is what it is, as unfair as it may seem".

[jalbright]

JP,

If you feel that strongly about it, by all means, do your thing. I've got plenty of other fish to fry, and, like it or not, batting my head against this particular wall is low on my personal set of priorities. If that's callous, so be it. But we don't all scream about any number of injustices in this world, much less wage battles against them. We pick and choose, based on the ones we happen to care deeply about. There's more important things in this world than the professional fate of certain baseball players to get riled up about. Heck, I'm sure advocates of stopping genocide in certain areas of the world would regard me as unduly blase about their cause, and they might well be right. I don't have the time nor the energy to right all the world's wrongs. Sorry if I don't completely share your level of commitment to this one issue.

I might add that part of my reaction to this is that I don't see that there's anything I'm willing to do which would have the slightest effect on the MLBPA's position on this. Convince me otherwise, and I'll consider changing my stance.

Jim Albright

[J.P]

Jim,

I know what you are saying, but when I brought up the topic of the discrimination in the Hall of Fame, you basically said the same, "oh this is so, because...........................as unfair as it may seem, it is what it is". I think that this has just been a case of miscommunation, but when myself and Cubano (correct me if I'm wrong) bring up these subjects here, we are just trying to gain awareness and perhaps support about it, and I felt, maybe mistakenly so, that you just try to shut it down, by saying: "It is what it is, as unfair as it may seem"; and you are right, there are far more important things going in this world than this, but this happens to be a baseball forum, we are suppossed to discuss topics that affect the game of baseball, I'm sure there are plenty of other forums where those other issues could be discussed. You have every right to not share my same level of commintment, but dont expect me to just accept the situation, because thats just the way it is. If I was writer, I would write about it, if I was a celebrity I would openly talk about it on TV, magazines, etc, but since I'm not, all I have is to share it with you guys in this forum, and who knows who might be reading. You have every right to express your opinions as to why things are the way they are, I agree with some of your points, and I disagree with some (Like the Mariel reference, I'm still trying to figure out how that links with the Cuban ballplayers).

[jalbright]

JP

With all due respect, it is a lack of communication. While I did not spell out in this thread explicitly the first time that I was not trying to justify why things are this way, I happen to think a fair reading of it would reveal that I was seeking to explain the status quo rather than justify it. Whether I am right or not, you read it as trying to justify the status quo.

In the other instance you mention, I don't happen to like it, and that's why I included the portion about its unfairness. It also happens to be a situation I don't see that I have much ability to affect. Please don't read into what I'm saying that it also means we should just accept it. If I wanted to say that, I would have.

I will try to be as clear as I can, but I'm already quite wordy, I'm sure too much so for some folks. The instant nature of this mode of communication is not helpful to such precise wording, however. I would ask you to take similar care in not reading things into what other people write. Thanks.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

You're absolutely mistaken about the option of retiring. The current posting system was created precisely to close that loophole.

I've seen references to the retirement option very recently. I was unaware it has been completely eliminated as an option and, in fact, I do not believe it has been completely eliminated.

The major leagues signed off on this system, don't tell me that they had nothing to do with it--it's part of their "Working Agreement" with the Japanese owners.

Maybe, but that doesn't change my original point: The 9-year rule has been collectively bargained between Japanese players and owners, and it's up to those two parties to make adjustments.

You are not suggesting MLB should just ignore valid Japanese contracts and/or a valid, collectively-bargained rule, are you?


Also, they choose not to actively compete for Japanese high school and college talent. That's not a part of any collective bargaining agreement, and it effectively removes the choice for such players. It's not as onerous as what the Cubans face, but it's hardly the free market at work.

MLB might not actively scout the Japanese amateur leagues but there is NOTHING stopping such players from expressing interest in an MLB career and signing with an MLB club. In fact, while you seem to be alleging a conspiracy by MLB teams to keep Japanese kids out of MLB, the simple fact of the matter is that most MLB teams learned scouting Japanese amateurs was a waste of time and money, given the emphasis placed on a college education by Japanese parents.

The major leagues don't want to pay them or Japanese players as pro level free agents. That's the root of the problem, and one which few outside sources other than the MLBPA can do much to affect. That's the group which should be standing up against these things, but they're more interested in their own contracts and jobs than paving the way for guys who aren't members yet. Don't expect anything to change if that attitude of the players who make up the union doesn't change.

The MLBPA should be doing more for Cubans but the Japanese guys have their own union. You're comparing apples and oranges.

[J.P]

Jim,

Will do, i actually think that forums, blogs, etc, allows for miscommunication, perhaps too much of it, even if our opinions differed mightingly, I would respect yours.

[jalbright]

I've seen references to the retirement option very recently. I was unaware it has been completely eliminated as an option and, in fact, I do not believe it has been completely eliminated.
............................
MLB might not actively scout the Japanese amateur leagues but there is NOTHING stopping such players from expressing interest in an MLB career and signing with an MLB club. In fact, while you seem to be alleging a conspiracy by MLB teams to keep Japanese kids out of MLB, the simple fact of the matter is that most MLB teams learned scouting Japanese amateurs was a waste of time and money, given the emphasis placed on a college education by Japanese parents.

Agente

I am quite certain that 1) I am more versed on the Japanese situation than you and 2) you are dead wrong about the retirement option. If the writer(s) you read were factually correct (not a safe assumption, unfortunately), you either misread or misremembered what was written.

MLB isn't giving Japanese kids a real choice, for whatever reason. There is a long history of the major leagues currying favor with the Japanese owners, and I don't think that has changed signficantly. However, what choice would any reasonable person make in this situation: your home country league offers you a significant but smallish by MLB standards signing bonus with a similarly smallish contract which you will be basically bound by for nine years or strike out on your own to get a major league team to give you a chance to play in the minors and prove yourself, without said MLB club putting up anywhere near the sums you will be guaranteed in your home country, all in hopes you will win a MLB job quickly enough to make up the difference and then some? That choice doesn't figure in all the cultural pressure on Japanese to conform, either. That's not a real choice. Granted, it's better than Cuban players face (risk life and limb to defect, and if you succeed, your family faces retribution, not to mention no guarantees about baseball contracts), but it's hardly a meaningful choice.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

even if our opinions differed mightingly, I would respect yours.
Your and everyone else's opinion here (so long as it is not against forum rules) deserves such respect, and I try to act accordingly.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

Agente

I am quite certain that 1) I am more versed on the Japanese situation than you and 2) you are dead wrong about the retirement option. If the writer(s) you read were factually correct (not a safe assumption, unfortunately), you either misread or misremembered what was written.

Okay, but you continue to ignore the simple reality that the 9-year rule has been collectively bargained by the Japanese players and owners. Your insistence on blaming MLB and the MLBPA for the alleged unfairness of the situation is about as logical as me blaming the British Parliament for the speed limits in New York.

MLB isn't giving Japanese kids a real choice, for whatever reason. There is a long history of the major leagues currying favor with the Japanese owners, and I don't think that has changed signficantly. However, what choice would any reasonable person make in this situation: your home country league offers you a significant but smallish by MLB standards signing bonus with a similarly smallish contract which you will be basically bound by for nine years or strike out on your own to get a major league team to give you a chance to play in the minors and prove yourself, without said MLB club putting up anywhere near the sums you will be guaranteed in your home country, all in hopes you will win a MLB job quickly enough to make up the difference and then some? That choice doesn't figure in all the cultural pressure on Japanese to conform, either. That's not a real choice. Granted, it's better than Cuban players face (risk life and limb to defect, and if you succeed, your family faces retribution, not to mention no guarantees about baseball contracts), but it's hardly a meaningful choice.

Jim Albright

The above makes little sense. The average Japanese kid is far more privileged, educated and wealthy than kids from just about anywhere else MLB signs players from; Japanese kids are, by MLB rule, free agents; and Japanese kids have easy access to U.S. tourist and school visas that would enable them to either tour the U.S. to showcase themselves (as free agents) and/or to enroll at a U.S. school (for MLB draft purposes).

Just because a Japanese kid *might* get a little less money upfront by signing an MLB contract out of high school rather than signing with a Japanese team is hardly "unfair."

As alleged inequities go, the Japanese should be the last ones to complain about anything vis-a-vis MLB.

[jalbright]

Okay, but you continue to ignore the simple reality that the 9-year rule has been collectively bargained by the Japanese players and owners. Your insistence on blaming MLB and the MLBPA for the alleged unfairness of the situation is about as logical as me blaming the British Parliament for the speed limits in New York.

The above makes little sense. The average Japanese kid is far more privileged, educated and wealthy than kids from just about anywhere else MLB signs players from; Japanese kids are, by MLB rule, free agents; and Japanese kids have easy access to U.S. tourist and school visas that would enable them to either tour the U.S. to showcase themselves (as free agents) and/or to enroll at a U.S. school (for MLB draft purposes).

Just because a Japanese kid *might* get a little less money upfront by signing an MLB contract out of high school rather than signing with a Japanese team is hardly "unfair."

As alleged inequities go, the Japanese should be the last ones to complain about anything vis-a-vis MLB.

No question that the Japanese player's union is largely spineless--it took the threat of dissolution of a team to get them to stage the timidest of strikes last year--but that does not mean the majors has to completely abandon Japan to the Japanese, either. That's what has happened, and that is what I decry.

Yes, Japanese kids are more privileged than most Latin American kids--but the undertakings you suggest are not easy nor cheap--and you'll have to show me that MLB clubs would be willing to shell out much money to a Japanese kid solely on the basis of a tryout (because they don't scout them as kids) to convince me there's not a huge differential in the immediate economic future of Japanese kids between the majors and staying in Japan. If a Japanese kid would make the majors and be able to retain a job a few years, he'd probably make up the immediate shortfall if he went directly to the minors rather than through Japan, but otherwise, he's way behind. That's not a realistic choice, and you refuse to acknowledge that basic truth.

[Agente Libre]

Yes, Japanese kids are more privileged than most Latin American kids--but the undertakings you suggest are not easy nor cheap--and you'll have to show me that MLB clubs would be willing to shell out much money to a Japanese kid solely on the basis of a tryout (because they don't scout them as kids) to convince me there's not a huge differential in the immediate economic future of Japanese kids between the majors and staying in Japan. If a Japanese kid would make the majors and be able to retain a job a few years, he'd probably make up the immediate shortfall if he went directly to the minors rather than through Japan, but otherwise, he's way behind. That's not a realistic choice, and you refuse to acknowledge that basic truth.

But it's not a "basic truth." You seem to be suggesting Japanese kids should get more money from MLB simply because they are Japanese. Otherwise, why shouldn't the same free market and risk/reward principles apply to Japanese as currently apply to Dominicans, Venezuelans, Panamanians, etc.?

If some 18-year-old Japanese kid who throws 95-mph tells MLB teams he wants to sign with an MLB team instead of stay in Japan, I'm sure MLB teams will be interested, and will consider allocating signing bonus dollars accordingly. I'm certainly not aware of any stud Japanese amateurs being lowballed or spurned by MLB teams.

[J.P]

If some 18-year-old Japanese kid who throws 95-mph tells MLB teams he wants to sign with an MLB team instead of stay in Japan, I'm sure MLB teams will be interested, and will consider allocating signing bonus dollars accordingly. I'm certainly not aware of any stud Japanese amateurs being lowballed or spurned by MLB teams.

Or be forced to go through the draft.

[jalbright]

You seem to be suggesting Japanese kids should get more money from MLB simply because they are Japanese. Otherwise, why shouldn't the same free market and risk/reward principles apply to Japanese as currently apply to Dominicans, Venezuelans, Panamanians, etc.?
.
Not at all. I'm suggesting that, like everywhere outside the US, MLB tries to get by on the cheap. In Japan, the majors aren't willing to pay market rates (i.e. what Japanese teams are willing to pay). That's an advantage the Japanese have--but it doesn't make anything the majors does in this regard fair to any foreigners. Frankly, I don't get the splitting foreigners into camps, at least from the perspective of players and their advocates. If foreigners are split into competing camps, who wins? MLB, by virtue of a strategy of divide and conquer. Is that what you want?

Jim Albright

[J.P]

I dont think the Japanese ball players have it that "hard", when none of them is challenging the system. If they would start making themselves free agents to MLB teams instead of signing with a Japanese team straight out of school, then MLB wouldnt be able to ignore them. Of course, they would rather take whatever money is guaranteed to them in Japan than risk making it in the bigs and end up with less that what was offered in his home country, but that is the player's choice. A Dominican, Venezuelan, etc, kid, does not have that privilege, his only options are living conditions beyond poverty line or whatever the MLB team is offering him, so, if we look at it this way, Japanese are overprivileged, not underpriviliged.

[Agente Libre]

Not at all. I'm suggesting that, like everywhere outside the US, MLB tries to get by on the cheap. In Japan, the majors aren't willing to pay market rates (i.e. what Japanese teams are willing to pay). That's an advantage the Japanese have--but it doesn't make anything the majors does in this regard fair to any foreigners. Frankly, I don't get the splitting foreigners into camps, at least from the perspective of players and their advocates. If foreigners are split into competing camps, who wins? MLB, by virtue of a strategy of divide and conquer. Is that what you want?

Jim Albright

But just because Yomiuri might offer a Japanese kid $500,000 while an MLB team only offers $200,000 does not, in and of itself, mean MLB is being "cheap" or otherwise conspiring against Japanese players. There are a lot of different factors at play. For one thing, MLB draws from a much wider talent pool and, thus, values players differently.

Further, Japanese teams don't operate any differently than their MLB counterparts when it comes to signing foreign players. (E.g., when Alfonso Soriano signed with a Japanese team as a teenager, I believe he received only a four or 5-figure bonus.)

[jalbright]

Please show me one case of a Japanese player not previously under MLB contract getting what he could command in Japan, and I will consider rescinding my charge that MLB is cheap. Every one of the guys who has come over has taken a pay cut to do it. Every last one. Doesn't the consistency of that prove something?

Yes, Japanese baseball is cheap, too. They're in it to make money, not be fair to players After that, it's all a discussion of the degree of unfairness. Latin Americans get screwed worse essentially because they start with less bargaining power. That's the economic hardball reality. It stinks, but it is quite real.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

But again, that's a bogus argument. Ichiro was an established star in Japan, so his value *in Japan* was assuredly higher than it was as he entered his first MLB season. Ditto for Sasaki, Irabu and the rest.

Are you suggesting Hideki Matsui was short-changed when he signed a 3-year, $27 million contract with the Yankees as a first-year MLB player? How much was So Taguchi supposed to get?

Michel Abreu was a far, far better player in Cuba than So Taguchi was in Japan. Taguchi got $2 million without lifting a finger; Abreu had to beg for 2 years just to get a lousy $200,000.

Again, life is unfair all around, but inserting Japanese players into the discussion of the difficulty Cuban defectors have seems like really tortured logic.

[jalbright]

With all due respect Agente, I am not the one who introduced the topic of Japanese players to this discussion--Cubano did in post #639. I'll be happy to return this to a discussion of Cuban baseball if you are as well.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

Right, he pointed out Japanese players are treated much better by MLB than Cubans, which they are.

[jon7jmets]

The AFL Rosters been released Michel Abreu and Yunel Escobar are going, pretty sure their are other cuban Native players going.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/about/page.jsp?ymd=20060821&content_id=121035&vkey=about_l119&fext=.jsp&sid=l119

[Mattingly]

Jorge Posada was born in Puerto Rico to a Cuban Father and Dominican mother. Leo Posada was his uncle. Read More:

JORGE POSADA
The New York Yankees Catcher met with the Latino Press at Yankee Stadium July 28th to discuss, among other things, his national and ethnic identity.

“Vamos estar claro,” (Let’s be clear) Jorge responded. “Yes, I feel Cuban and yes I feel Dominican. I grew up in a Cuban community in Puerto Rico and during the summer days I would play with children born in Puerto Rico of Cuban parents. I would love to go to Cuba. I have never been there. I always went to Dominicana (Dominican Republic). I have family in Santo Domingo where I spent my summers as a child. Now in the off-season I visit there in the winter. On my mother’s side my relatives live in Dominicana; on my father’s side, thank God, with the Cuban Exile, they all have lived in Puerto Rico.”
Thanks. I saw this listing of Jorge:

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/P/Posada_Jorge.stm
Nephew of Leo Posada

Leo Posada (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/posadle01.shtml), born in Havana, Cuba.

Thanks. :)

[Cubano100%]

The AFL Rosters been released Michel Abreu and Yunel Escobar are going, pretty sure their are other cuban Native players going.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/about/page.jsp?ymd=20060821&content_id=121035&vkey=about_l119&fext=.jsp&sid=l119


Thank you, John.

Amaury Marti will play for the Saguaros as well as Geovani Gonzalez who is Cubanamerican.

[J.P]

Please show me one case of a Japanese player not previously under MLB contract getting what he could command in Japan, and I will consider rescinding my charge that MLB is cheap. Every one of the guys who has come over has taken a pay cut to do it. Every last one. Doesn't the consistency of that prove something?

Yes, Japanese baseball is cheap, too. They're in it to make money, not be fair to players After that, it's all a discussion of the degree of unfairness. Latin Americans get screwed worse essentially because they start with less bargaining power. That's the economic hardball reality. It stinks, but it is quite real.

Jim Albright

--I agree with Agente, why should MLB pay the market value of the player in Japan?????????????????????? So are you telling me that if Alex Ochoa or Alex Cabrera, or Tuffy Rhodes decided to come back to MLB they should get paid based on their market value in Japan???????????? Again, they have the choice not to come over, and not take that pay cut, show me another player in the world who has that luxury. Excellent comparison between Abreu and Taguchi Agente.

[J.P]

Thanks for the info jon. Javier Herrera, who is Cuban American is playing on the same team with Yunel Escobar.

[Cubano100%]

The following is my take on all of this:

Japanese players have special circumstances as well as Cuban players. If MLB can accomodate the Japanese players, they should also have a process much better than the one we have now for Cuban defectors. Cuban defectors also have a dream of reaching the big leagues like any other player in this world and getting paid according to their skills and age.

Why is MLB putting so many hurdles to Cuban defectors?
This has nothing to do with Castro or the Embargo. It has a lot to do with MLB an MLBPA.

Cuban players at least should get the chance to negotiate with different teams as free agents. More importantly, they should be able to sign right away without losing extended time away from baseball by waiting for the Draft or going to a third country to obtain free agent status.

[Cubano100%]

Alain Soler finally pitched again.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_22_hvrasx_broasx_1

[Cubano100%]

Super Kendry Morales is back.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_08_24_cspaaa_slcaaa_1

Michel Abreu hit the ball hard and far. Hasta la vista baby. HR (17).
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=l_sco&lid=113

[Cubanball]

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060824&content_id=123602&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp

[J.P]

Also on that team is Cuban-American Henry Owens, who is a teammate of Abreu with the B Mets, and a member of the USA Natn'l Team going to Habana for the Olympic Qualifiers.

[Martin Dihigo]

Folks, the tournament started yesterday at the Latinoamericano
in Havana. First game, Cuba 14, Colombia 0. http://www.baseball.ch/PanAm/BEIBS001.HTM

The Cuban starting 9 is pretty similiar to the lineup they
offered at the World Baseball Classic.

r

[Quicksilv3r]

Mayeta is really killing the ball :crazy

[Martin Dihigo]

Saw Johan Limonta play yesterday in Appleton, WI (Wisconsin TimberRattlers, Midwest League) and he went 2-4 with an RBI. He's raised his average to .241, 6 HR, 24 RBI in 212 ABs after a slow start. He's headed to fall instructional league after his first year in pro ball.

r

[Martin Dihigo]

Limonta was promoted to High A Inland Empire after Sunday's game and
homered in his first appearance Monday night!

Go Johan

[FlashGordon]

JP

With all due respect, it is a lack of communication. While I did not spell out in this thread explicitly the first time that I was not trying to justify why things are this way, I happen to think a fair reading of it would reveal that I was seeking to explain the status quo rather than justify it. Whether I am right or not, you read it as trying to justify the status quo.

In the other instance you mention, I don't happen to like it, and that's why I included the portion about its unfairness. It also happens to be a situation I don't see that I have much ability to affect. Please don't read into what I'm saying that it also means we should just accept it. If I wanted to say that, I would have.

I will try to be as clear as I can, but I'm already quite wordy, I'm sure too much so for some folks. The instant nature of this mode of communication is not helpful to such precise wording, however. I would ask you to take similar care in not reading things into what other people write. Thanks.

Jim Albright
Jim,

Look back several hundred posts and you'll see we've covered most of this ground before, to no avail. There is an unwillingness among some here to see how political and economic factors converge to create a situation that is regrettable, but in no way designed to stick it to one nationality. For us, it's just baseball and not a vital sector of the economy or society. For Cubans, you are talking about a major slice of national pride. It is much easier to cry discrimination and blame MLB than it is to blame the closed society of Cuba, where players can't establish a fair market value or engage in international business negotiations. Here in the US, at least you can raise your voice and feel empowered, even when you don't have a leg to stand on. In the end its a lot of misdirected rage and nothing you say will budge anyone an inch. I suppose when you come from a country where rule is by decree, it is incomprehensible that a wave of a single hand can't restore the scales of social justice.

On a personal note: get out of the discussion now before you are accused of being an agent of Castro. That's the ad hominem of choice in this thread.

[Agente Libre]

I see Flash's reading comprehension level hasn't impoved since the last visit.

Anyway, saying "that's the way it is" is hardly a worthwhile comment, but if that's all Jim said, people likely would have accepted it at face value and left it alone. But when Jim claimed Japanese players -- who live in a non-totalitarian country and are governed by *collectively bargained* statutes between the Japanese players and owners -- are being shafted by MLB to the same degree, or worse than, Cubans are treated, people rightfully called B.S. on that.

Jim offered some explanations, and then said "Cubano started it," and then hasn't been heard from since. Frankly, I still don't know what his point was. Unless he had a little too much saki that day, he can't possibly believe Japanese players face a tougher road to MLB than Cubans.

[jalbright]

Agente,

I wouldn't get personal with flash, and frankly, you are dangerously close to doing so with me. Don't go there, or I shall be forced to exercise some of the powers moderators are vested with to deal with such behavoir.

However, please show me where I ever said Japanese players have it as tough as Cubans. I do not believe I ever said such a thing. If I did, it was a typo. However, that does not make MLB's treatment of Japanese players fair. That was and remains my point. The fact MLB is more unfair to Cubans than Japanese is irrelevant to whether or not they are fair to the Japanese.

Also, my response about Cubano starting the discussion into the topic of Japanese was based on your accusation that I had initiated this portion of the discussion.

Agente, I chose to leave this topic alone as it was obvious we were not getting any closer to resolution, and the conversation was getting near the point of degenerating in the fashion you have come so perilously close to doing. Perhaps I could have written more clearly, but I believe you could have read my posts more closely and with better comprehension as well.

And flash, please don't go casting aspersions about Cubans on this site. That is in just as perilous a territory as Agente is in. This type of discussion stops here and now, or some people are getting a vacation of at least 48 hours from the site.

Personal attacks on anybody at this site are unwelcome--whether it be attacking someone's sobriety, politics, nationality or something else. I will not tolerate them.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

However, please show me where I ever said Japanese players have it as tough as Cubans. I do not believe I ever said such a thing. If I did, it was a typo. However, that does not make MLB's treatment of Japanese players fair. That was and remains my point. The fact MLB is more unfair to Cubans than Japanese is irrelevant to whether or not they are fair to the Japanese.

Well, then why did you make your point in the middle of a discussion about Cuba? Why do you continue to blame MLB for issues that are COLLECTIVELY BARGAINED by rich, well-educated Japanese players who live in a democracy as opposed to dirt-poor refugees who have to flee a communist country before even thinking about an MLB career?

Frankly, I'm still waiting for you to point out any instance of MLB being "unfair" to Japanese players. Was it when Ichiro got $21 million as a first-year MLB player? When So Taguchi got $2 million? When Hideki Irabu flaunted the rules to get $14 million from the Yankees because he felt pitching for the Padres was beneath him?

Or was it when MLB decided, in 2005, to grant free agency to Japanese players after as little as one MLB season when ALL OTHER PLAYERS need at least 6 years of service?

Also, my response about Cubano starting the discussion into the topic of Japanese was based on your accusation that I had initiated this portion of the discussion.

I think Cubano simply pointed out that the Japanese have it a lot better when entering MLB than Cubans do. Barring any evidence to the contrary, Cubano was right.

Personal attacks on anybody at this site are unwelcome--whether it be attacking someone's sobriety, politics, nationality or something else. I will not tolerate them.

Jim Albright

Jim, I apologize if you interpreted my "too much saki" comment as a personal attack, but I thought it was clearly a comment made in jest.

Moreover, I understand you (presumably) post here under your real name and that doing so might make you more sensitive to comments, responses, etc., but for most of us, an internet board like this is attractive precisely for the bare-knuckles exchanges that occur here. (You seem to be taking my comments as a personal attack but I can assure you they are not. I'm simply trying to figure out where you're coming from on the MLB/Japan issue.)

Anyway, Flash's post above, which came a week after the fact and from out of left field, was clearly targeted at me and Cubano, and I felt the need to respond in kind. I'm pro-Cuban generally, but I'm far from a Cuban apologist. If you search my posts here, I've probably said as many negative things about Cuban players as I have positive. The idea that some of the pro-Cuban people here are a bunch of drooling, right-wing stooges is just nonsense.

[jalbright]

Agente

Bare-knuckles stuff is out of bounds here. This forum hasn't been moderated much due to the fact the individual assigned to the task admits he's not terribly interested in international ball. I am, and as a moderator, will not tolerate such behavoir here, despite the fact it may have been permitted in the past.

Frankly, if I hadn't taken a deep breath and noticed you had misapprehended my posts, I'm not sure your comment about saki would not have resulted in a 48 hour vacation. You also got a little personal with flash in the same post. I'm telling you and everybody here, personal stuff is out of bounds, and will be dealt with accordingly.

I saw what flash said, and I also admonished him in my post, as you should have noticed.

My response to Cubano was in the context that he indicated Japanese players got at least fair treatment, if not favorable treatment. I believe that is false, and have explained my reasons for that belief. I never once said the Cubans don't have it tougher. Indeed, I took pains to indicate the contrary. As I said earlier in this exchange, why is there a need to get into Cubans versus Japanese here, when the only possible beneficiaries of such a battle are the greedy MLB owners? Perhaps making common cause could address the situation of both groups. Beyond that, I have no desire to revisit the issue, not only for the reasons I have already given, but one you've pointed out here and I forgot to mention earlier: this thread is about Cuba, not Japan.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

Jim -- If my joke about saki was enough to warrant a "48-hour vacation," then this is not an internet forum I have much interest in.

If you do not want to discuss the ways you feel MLB is unfair to Japanese in this thread, why not do so in the Japanese thread? We just went in a huge 1-week circle, and as I said above, I still don't have the slightest clue as to where you're coming from. (Again, just to be super-clear, that's not a personal attack; it's a statement of fact from my perspective.)

[J.P]

Let me know the thread where that discussion is gonna take place, my last question on thats subject was never answered neither.

[J.P]

Jim,

Look back several hundred posts and you'll see we've covered most of this ground before, to no avail. There is an unwillingness among some here to see how political and economic factors converge to create a situation that is regrettable, but in no way designed to stick it to one nationality. For us, it's just baseball and not a vital sector of the economy or society. For Cubans, you are talking about a major slice of national pride. It is much easier to cry discrimination and blame MLB than it is to blame the closed society of Cuba, where players can't establish a fair market value or engage in international business negotiations. Here in the US, at least you can raise your voice and feel empowered, even when you don't have a leg to stand on. In the end its a lot of misdirected rage and nothing you say will budge anyone an inch. I suppose when you come from a country where rule is by decree, it is incomprehensible that a wave of a single hand can't restore the scales of social justice.

On a personal note: get out of the discussion now before you are accused of being an agent of Castro. That's the ad hominem of choice in this thread.

Hey Flash, nobody has ever denied that the root of the problem is inside Cuba, but MLB is taking advantage of this, by making them go through the draft and potentially getting cheap talent that otherwise would cost millions in the free agent market.

[FlashGordon]

Hey Flash, nobody has ever denied that the root of the problem is inside Cuba, but MLB is taking advantage of this, by making them go through the draft and potentially getting cheap talent that otherwise would cost millions in the free agent market.I've never denied that MLB profits from the situation and I've also said that it would be a gesture of good will if MLB would work to change the rules. My impressions from the last round of discussion were that there is a hope to carve out a very large set of exceptions for Cubans, without a willingness to at least acknowledge that special provisions would have to be made (re: wave of the hand). However, the focus of the discussion then turned to how much the MLB loves Asians and despises Cubans without recognizing that the rules, while in effect are disadventageous to Cuban defectors to the US, were not specifically designed to screw them over (take note, Jim).

There is a problem, however, in that there are no easy fixes for determining FA eligibility for a veteran of a nationalized league where a player can be denied playtime due to their political views or, conversely, be given preferential treatment based upon party loyalty. I would certainly hope that no one would suggest that *every* potential ballplayer who defects, regardless of veteran status, should be able to dodge the draft. That *would* be truly preferential treatment, which the players union would either sabotage or use as a pretense to do away with the draft altogether.

Finally, I cast no aspersions on Cubans as a people. I recognize that they are very passionate about baseball and their players. I just think the sense of injustice, while valid, is WAY overblown in this discussion and on some level, misdirected. MLB and the USA have thrown their doors wide open for Cuban defectors, even if their policies are in need of some serious adjustment. To paint it otherwise is disingenous and ungrateful.

[jalbright]

Jim -- If my joke about saki was enough to warrant a "48-hour vacation," then this is not an internet forum I have much interest in.

If you do not want to discuss the ways you feel MLB is unfair to Japanese in this thread, why not do so in the Japanese thread? We just went in a huge 1-week circle, and as I said above, I still don't have the slightest clue as to where you're coming from. (Again, just to be super-clear, that's not a personal attack; it's a statement of fact from my perspective.)

If you don't understand where someone is coming from, that's not a personal attack. However, when you carry the statement beyond your understanding or the logic or facts contained within the post itself to a comment about the person making the post, you have crossed the line.

The policy of this site is as follows:

V. Baseball Fever Netiquette:
....
e. Personal attacks of any type, against Baseball Fever readers will not be tolerated..... [Members making such posts will receive one warning] Members who chose to not listen and continue personal attacks will be banned from the site.


If civil debate of the type required by the above rule is too onerous for you to accept, even in a site provided free of charge to you, I invite you to leave.

As for the matter of Japanese players, I've said my peace, and I do not know how to make what I have said any clearer to you. As such, I do not see much purpose in continuing this discussion.

Jim Albright

[J.P]

Flash, I never said that my belief is that MLB dispises Cubans. You say that not every player who defects should be allowed to "dodge" the draft, but why is every Japanese player who decides to come over declared a FA, regardless of "veteran status"??? Isnt that a double standard??? Furthermore, whats the difference between a 17 year old ball player signed and scouted in San Pedro de Macoris, D.R and a 27 year old Cuban defector, other than the fact that he cant be signed and scouted in his homeland but has to flee it in order to be signed and scouted in Miami, once again, MLB taking advantage of the situation inside Cuba, the way they look at it, he is in Miami, he is an American, he has to enter the draft, conveniently failing to recognize the fact that he has no other choice, he cannot be signed or scouted in his homeland. If the 17 year old is allowed to "dodge" the draft, so should the 27 year old, or are we going to discriminate based on age??

[Agente Libre]

I've never denied that MLB profits from the situation and I've also said that it would be a gesture of good will if MLB would work to change the rules. My impressions from the last round of discussion were that there is a hope to carve out a very large set of exceptions for Cubans, without a willingness to at least acknowledge that special provisions would have to be made (re: wave of the hand). However, the focus of the discussion then turned to how much the MLB loves Asians and despises Cubans without recognizing that the rules, while in effect are disadventageous to Cuban defectors to the US, were not specifically designed to screw them over (take note, Jim).

But the provisions really wouldn't be all that "special." All other foreign players on Earth are regarded as free agents by MLB *unless* they are under contract with a pro league MLB recognizes (Japan, Korea, Mexico).

I would certainly hope that no one would suggest that *every* potential ballplayer who defects, regardless of veteran status, should be able to dodge the draft. That *would* be truly preferential treatment, which the players union would either sabotage or use as a pretense to do away with the draft altogether.

How do you figure? All other foreign players on Earth are free agents. Why should service time in Cuba make a difference?

(But as an aside, it has been previously suggested to MLB that maybe Cubans with "x" number of years should be considered free agents -- e.g., Jose Contreras, who had over a decade of experience -- and MLB said "no.")

Finally, I cast no aspersions on Cubans as a people. I recognize that they are very passionate about baseball and their players. I just think the sense of injustice, while valid, is WAY overblown in this discussion and on some level, misdirected. MLB and the USA have thrown their doors wide open for Cuban defectors, even if their policies are in need of some serious adjustment.

But see, MLB really hasn't thrown their doors wide open for Cuban defectors. MLB wouldn't even let the early defectors sign contracts until the U.S. Justice Department stepped in and threatened MLB with a huge lawsuit. That's when MLB suddenly invented the "special lottery" for Cubans, which was still grossly unfair but seemed like a "win" for early defectors (as opposed to not being allowed to sign at all).

(Aside to Jim: On this point, Cubans and Japanese can look themselves in the mirror for some of the blame re: any unfairness. Just as the Japanese have consistently folded in CBA negotiations, things would likely be better for Cubans right now if the early players and their agents did not capitulate so easily to MLB's offer.)

To paint it otherwise is disingenous and ungrateful.

No, not really. MLB went from not allowing Cubans to sign at all to making them jump through hoops to sign contracts; a process that deliberately makes Cubans wait months or years to seek MLB employment and/or forces them into the draft. (And since 90% of defectors are too old for high school or college, they end up going in the draft without even being scouted, since they aren't on a high school or college team before the draft like 99.99% of the other draft-eligible players.)

[FlashGordon]

Flash, I never said that my belief is that MLB dispises Cubans. You say that not every player who defects should be allowed to "dodge" the draft, but why is every Japanese player who decides to come over declared a FA, regarles of "veteran status"??? Not every Japanese player who comes here is, only those that have negotiated and signed contracts before setting foot on American soil (i.e. gaining residency). If you come in the door with a contract in hand, you avoid the draft. That goes for Japanese, Koreans, Mexicans, Dominicans, and anyone else. That's why Cubans are disadvantaged at home and sometimes try to defect to a third country, where they can be scouted as FAs.

[J.P]

Not every Japanese player who comes here is, only those that have negotiated and signed contracts before setting foot on American soil (i.e. gaining residency). If you come in the door with a contract in hand, you avoid the draft. That goes for Japanese, Koreans, Mexicans, Dominicans, and anyone else. That's why Cubans are disadvantaged at home and sometimes try to defect to a third country, where they can be scouted as FAs.

Exactly my point, Japanese, Koreans, Mexicans, Dominicans, etc are allowed to be signed and scouted in their homeland, Cubans are not, and MLB is taking advantage of the situation, there's no way around this truth.

If we wanna step into other waters, I thought you needed to be in the States for 1 year and 1 day (I know I did) in order to be able to apply for your residency, then how come Cuban players are considered residents the minute they set foot on American soil??

[Agente Libre]

If we wanna step into other waters, I thought you needed to be in the States for 1 year and 1 day (I know I did) in order to be able to apply for your residency, then how come Cuban players are considered residents the minute they set foot on American soil??

That's the million-dollar question.

MLB invented its own convenient definition of "resident" that contradicts the actual legal meaning.

[jalbright]

Flash, I never said that my belief is that MLB dispises Cubans. You say that not every player who defects should be allowed to "dodge" the draft, but why is every Japanese player who decides to come over declared a FA, regardless of "veteran status"??? Isnt that a double standard??? Furthermore, whats the difference between a 17 year old ball player signed and scouted in San Pedro de Macoris, D.R and a 27 year old Cuban defector, other than the fact that he cant be signed and scouted in his homeland but has to flee it in order to be signed and scouted in Miami, once again, MLB taking advantage of the situation inside Cuba, the way they look at it, he is in Miami, he is an American, he has to enter the draft, conveniently failing to recognize the fact that he has no other choice, he cannot be signed or scouted in his homeland. If the 17 year old is allowed to "dodge" the draft, so should the 27 year old, or are we going to discriminate based on age??

The majors exploit everything they can. Not every Japanese is a free agent. Those that are posted (most aren't) either go to the major league club that offered to pay the Japanese club the most money, or go back to the Japanese club. The only choice the player has in that situation is go to the designated MLB team or stay with the club in Japan. Most, however, either serve enough time to earn free agent status in Japan or are granted such status by being cut by their team. The majors has agreed to abide by the entire Japanese system, so they have contractually obligated themselves to regard Japanese free agents as free agents for their own purposes as well.

I know some Cubans who defected sought citizenship elsewhere to be free agents. I know it hasn't always worked so well, as sometimes the players have had difficulties in getting everything worked out so they could play in the States. Is it always so difficult that this technique is no longer tried? Have the majors limited or closed this approach off? Or is it a viable answer for Cuban defectors?

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

On this point, Cubans and Japanese can look themselves in the mirror for some of the blame re: any unfairness. Just as the Japanese have consistently folded in CBA negotiations, things would likely be better for Cubans right now if the early players and their agents did not capitulate so easily to MLB's offer.

No doubt about that--and I'm amazed that Japanese players have consistently elected to take significantly less money to go to the majors than they could command at home.

I'd guess even the bad contracts the Cubans get from MLB look fairly good to guys who often have little other than their baseball skills when they get here. The situation gives the majors leverage with Cuban defectors, and they use it to the hilt. That being the case, the Cuban defectors have to be willing to endure even more hardship to get something resembling a fair contract. Those guys need the player's union's help, and aren't getting it.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

We've been trashing the contracts Cuban players signed. I've gotten to thinking: are they really bad contracts for the time these guys spend in the minors? Isn't the main place they get screwed is when they get to the majors? They don't get any credit for their Cuban play, and thus their experience in the system is less, which means they get their shots at arbitration and free agency later than similarly talented players. And when guys get to those benchmarks, that's when the money starts rolling in. Wouldn't a system which dealt with this issue fairly go a long way toward making things fair?

Jim Albright

[J.P]

No doubt about that--and I'm amazed that Japanese players have consistently elected to take significantly less money to go to the majors than they could command at home.

Jim Albright

Jim, could it be the desire to prove themselves at the highest level of proffesional baseball?? Self accomplishment??

[J.P]

We've been trashing the contracts Cuban players signed. I've gotten to thinking: are they really bad contracts for the time these guys spend in the minors? Isn't the main place they get screwed is when they get to the majors? They don't get any credit for their Cuban play, and thus their experience in the system is less, which means they get their shots at arbitration and free agency later than similarly talented players. And when guys get to those benchmarks, that's when the money starts rolling in. Wouldn't a system which dealt with this issue fairly go a long way toward making things fair?

Jim Albright

Jim, I haven't really thrashed the contracts they've signed, the ones that have been able to be declared FA right away, in cases have been over paid (Andy Morales, Adrian Hernandez, etc)

[J.P]

I know some Cubans who defected sought citizenship elsewhere to be free agents. I know it hasn't always worked so well, as sometimes the players have had difficulties in getting everything worked out so they could play in the States. Is it always so difficult that this technique is no longer tried? Have the majors limited or closed this approach off? Or is it a viable answer for Cuban defectors?

Jim Albright

Jim, MLB has just cracked down on this(geez, I wonder why), some of the papers were false, etc

[J.P]

Michel Abreu hasnt played since Aug 26, and the status on his player page says: Reserve List Minors, what does this mean??? Also, Francisley Bueno hasnt pitched since Aug 15, any info???

[Agente Libre]

Jim -- The problem isn't necessarily with the contracts signed by Cubans (at least not the ones everyone hears about); it's that for every Cuban player who actually signs a contract, there are probably 2 or 3 Cubans who get caught up in the bureaucracy and never sign at all, or sign after a huge delay. (Which means for some, their careers never even get started; for others, they sign for very little money and are at risk of getting released if they don't produce from Day 1 in the minors.)


J.P. -- Michel Abreu's mother died of an apparent stroke in Cuba last weekend and Abreu apparently got the news during pre-game batting practice. Abreu left the field and Juan Samuel, Binghamton's manager, found him sitting in the parking lot. Obviously, he won't be able to attend the funeral, and I guess the Mets decided to de-activate him for the last few days of the season because he's not emotionally ready to play.

[J.P]

Wow, the harsh reality of the cuban players.

[jalbright]

Jim -- The problem isn't necessarily with the contracts signed by Cubans (at least not the ones everyone hears about); it's that for every Cuban player who actually signs a contract, there are probably 2 or 3 Cubans who get caught up in the bureaucracy and never sign at all, or sign after a huge delay. (Which means for some, their careers never even get started; for others, they sign for very little money and are at risk of getting released if they don't produce from Day 1 in the minors.).

So, the real problems are 1) getting these guys a prompt opportunity to get into the system and 2) the issue of service time toward arbitration and free agency, right? If that's so, the draft isn't the real enemy, though the system may need streamlining to give guys their chance sooner. In fact, a draft could be part of the streamlining process, as it gives the clubs certainty and some element of cost containment on "unproven" players.

The real solution is something the union should be interested in: an adjustment in the service time standards. What I would propose is that all players have the opportunity to have their service time accelerated when they reach certain benchmarks, such as getting to AAA, being put on the 40 man roster, or making the majors. These benchmarks could be set such that half or more of the players wouldn't have their service time accelerated. This way, if any player showed they were AAA quality or above quickly, they'd get a head start on their service time. This would have to be coupled with some mechanism to allow for arbitration when the player reached that point, even with an existing contract, such as a player option to void the contract and go for arbitration. For the foreign guys, this could help them on that end of the issue.

I chose those benchmarks because when a guy gets to them, he's either gone beyond the minors or is close to doing so, and has a real shot at the majors where his bargaining power dramatically rises. At lower levels of play, it doesn't matter as much, because if you don't produce and progress, you're going to be gone anyway.

The clubs would still have their certainty they wouldn't overpay for "unproven" talent, and would have more incentive to sign defectors quickly. They'd hate it because their opportunity to field young cheap teams for several years would be diminished, but that's the nature of collective bargaining.

I don't know that there's any solution to the "produce or else" issue, because every minor leaguer faces that issue to some degree. Maybe that is as it should be.

Jim Albright

[J.P]

Jim, clear something up for me, this you are proposing is just for Cuban defectors, or for all foreign players?

[jalbright]

JP,

Everybody, not just foreign players is in on the benchmarks side of it. The draft issue could be extended to every league MLB doesn't have an agreement with, such as Japan and Mexico. They can't unilaterally change those agreements, so they probably need to be left alone. There aren't many guys coming from Japan a) with nothing and b) who aren't going to the majors (or at a minimum AAA). The Cuban defectors, for varying reasons, cannot say those two things nearly as often.

Remember, the draft has to be made part of streamlining the process of getting these guys in organized ball. One way would be to make it a supplemental draft which is immediate for each player. If you want that player, you have to give up a pick you have in whatever round of the regular draft the next time the draft is held. A guy might last through three or five or ten or twenty rounds, depending on how teams view him--but then they give up that pick the next year to get him.

That's the way to get the union to act. You also don't have to worry much about charges of special treatment that way. Of course, it's going to be harder to get the owners to agree

Jim Albright

[Cubano100%]

Jim,

Look back several hundred posts and you'll see we've covered most of this ground before, to no avail. There is an unwillingness among some here to see how political and economic factors converge to create a situation that is regrettable, but in no way designed to stick it to one nationality. For us, it's just baseball and not a vital sector of the economy or society. For Cubans, you are talking about a major slice of national pride. It is much easier to cry discrimination and blame MLB than it is to blame the closed society of Cuba, where players can't establish a fair market value or engage in international business negotiations. Here in the US, at least you can raise your voice and feel empowered, even when you don't have a leg to stand on. In the end its a lot of misdirected rage and nothing you say will budge anyone an inch. I suppose when you come from a country where rule is by decree, it is incomprehensible that a wave of a single hand can't restore the scales of social justice.

On a personal note: get out of the discussion now before you are accused of being an agent of Castro. That's the ad hominem of choice in this thread.


Wow, we got an old friend back. As ussual, you political preferences dictates your comments and views.

Now and then, we have somebody that chooses to publish comments to antagonize the Cubans in this forum. These folks ussually throw the first stone and then we all get reprimanded.

This time I will choose not to argue with you. I certainly hope you are not a moderator anymore.


By the way, there are just a few Cubans remaining in this Thread since our last encounter. Many decided to leave after reading such graceful comments in our previous get together party. However, I am a veteran and I will be staying with you all the way.

Speaking of Cubanos in here (3 or 4), we are young Cubans that do not belong to any political association and only care about baseball in this forum.

On a personal note: Despite some non baseball comments made by Jim regarding "El Mariel" related to Cubans, we (J.P. and Cubano) did not attack him nor misrespect him in anyway. J.P. and I are Cubanos.

[Cubano100%]

The solution is simple. All players are free agents or have to go to the Draft. If the solution is a Draft, then MLB can have a domestic and international draft.

[Mattingly]

For some strange reason, the last few pages seems like people butting heads or something. People sniping, harshly disagreeing. Perhaps I come in the middle, but why such strong feelings here?

Also, I wouldn't like to see any harsh actions taken because someone disagrees with another's posts. Let's all discuss things rationally. :)

[Cubano100%]

Let me expand on Michel Abreu situation after my good friend Kiefer found the following article.

http://www.pressconnects.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060829/SPORTS/608290333




This is really sad because he was having a good season. I hope he just put this behind and comeback next season.

[Martin Dihigo]

Gente,

Also being Cuban, I've tremendously enjoyed this forum and would hate to see the free interchange of politico-baseball commentary cease. It's one of the only places I've seen where people informed about Cuba and organized baseball can exchange ideas in a thoughful manner.

Jim, I agree with whomever said that the saki comment was thrown out in good gest and in harmless spirit, but understand that you have standards and as moderator (you are moderator, yes?) you have the right to police those standards.

MLB has ALWAYS taken advantage of Latin American players. Clark Griffith stocked his WWII-years Senators with MLB-minimum salary Cuban ball players, and after Castro shut the door to Cuban players, MLB started "harvesting" Dominican players. All one needs to do is check a Class A league roster to see that baseball, more than ever, continues to exploit Latin American players.

It seems to me that MLB would want to make it easier for a new source of talented baseball players (Cuban defectors) to mature in its quickly-becoming-global game. But as the others have intimated here, Cuba has no economic nor for that matter, political clout, to negotiate with organized baseball, and if it did, it wouldn't anyway. So the Cuban players will be left to agents and schemers to get into baseball. In many cases, they never will.

So, don't expect to see MLB respond to the plight of the Cuban baseball players anytime soon. To them, the Cuban ball-player is a bonus to a system which already is exploiting the harvest of players from all of Latin America.

[Mattingly]

Martin, when you say "exploits" as far as Cuban and/or other Latin players, do you mean lower salaries once they reach free agency? Or do you mean in them coming aboard (either via legal entry to the USA and/or their joining an MLB or MLB-affiliated minor league team)? A few examples, since I haven't visited this thread recently, please.

[jalbright]

The solution is simple. All players are free agents or have to go to the Draft. If the solution is a Draft, then MLB can have a domestic and international draft.

The majors would not get nearly as many Japanese players who have made it to free agency in their own country if they're going to force those same players through a draft. That would suit the Japanese owners, but I doubt the majors are going to tie their hands that way. That means that if everybody (including the leagues the majors has arrangements with) is treated the same, only free agency works.

The majors aren't going to give that up without a strike over it, and the players aren't going to strike for it. So it's a pipe dream. Besides, I think that the majors would be very cautious in signing Cuban defectors if those defectors are free agents. The sure-fire guys from Cuba would benefit, but at least some of those guys who have a chance to make it aren't going to be as lucky.

My suggestion is to allow a draft which gets everybody with a chance into MLB's umbrella quickly. They'll make minor league money for much of their time in the minors, but that's fair. If their skills are more advanced, they'll move up in their opportunity for arbitration and free agency, and thus they'll get fairer wages as a result. Also, my proposal has something for most minor leaguers who dream of making the big leagues, which gives the union a reason to fight for it. In short, it is a plan with a chance. If you want to hold out for an ideal solution, you may have to wait a long time (maybe until Cuba and the US see eye to eye politically), and a lot of guys with a chance will wind up sitting on the sidelines with their skills atrophying as they get older, reducing their chances. If you prefer that to my suggestion, fine. If you have a better program in terms of its practical effect, I'd love to hear it.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Martin, when you say "exploits" as far as Cuban and/or other Latin players, do you mean lower salaries once they reach free agency? Or do you mean in them coming aboard (either via legal entry to the USA and/or their joining an MLB or MLB-affiliated minor league team)? A few examples, since I haven't visited this thread recently, please.

I think what he's talking about (and he's free to correct me if I'm mistaken) is that Cubans who reach the majors may have been more advanced than the college kids and high schoolers who were drafted in the US. This can easily happen because they're older and have benefitted from the level of competition in Cuba. However, they're treated the same under the CBA as those raw kids because the clock for arbitration and/or free agency starts ticking when they enter the system. The truth is, until players reach the arbitration/free agent threshholds, they come pretty cheap. I think it's accurate that at least some of the Cubans are hurt by this, and that is why I have floated the proposal I have, which lets skill level play a part in the determination of when the arbitration/free agent threshholds are met.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

At the risk of starting another conflagration, I still don't understand why the best solution isn't simply to treat Cubans like all other foreign players. This would require maybe a 2-sentence change of rules by MLB as opposed to trying to revamp operations domestically and/or around the globe.

MLB can't uniltareally do anything about the agreements in/with Japan, Korea or Mexico, so including those countries in any sort of umbrella draft/agreement is all but impossible.

(Keep in mind, MLB talked about an international draft for almost a decade, it was approved, and then they figured out it would be absolutely impossible to administer since there are, ostensibly, hundreds of thousands of players worldwide who aspire to an MLB career, and since carving out exemptions for Japanese, Koreans and Mexicans would expose the whole thing to legal challenges.)

[J.P]

At the risk of starting another conflagration, I still don't understand why the best solution isn't simply to treat Cubans like all other foreign players. This would require maybe a 2-sentence change of rules by MLB as opposed to trying to revamp operations domestically and/or around the globe.



Amen!!!!!!

[jalbright]

At the risk of starting another conflagration, I still don't understand why the best solution isn't simply to treat Cubans like all other foreign players. This would require maybe a 2-sentence change of rules by MLB as opposed to trying to revamp operations domestically and/or around the globe.

MLB can't uniltareally do anything about the agreements in/with Japan, Korea or Mexico, so including those countries in any sort of umbrella draft/agreement is all but impossible.

(Keep in mind, MLB talked about an international draft for almost a decade, it was approved, and then they figured out it would be absolutely impossible to administer since there are, ostensibly, hundreds of thousands of players worldwide who aspire to an MLB career, and since carving out exemptions for Japanese, Koreans and Mexicans would expose the whole thing to legal challenges.)

In a world in which MLB gave a hoot about being fair to foreign players rather than squeezing every dime out of the bottom line, you're probably right. If the union gave a rat's rear end about players who could become members but aren't yet, you're probably right. My point is that I don't see either of these conditions being met in the foreseeable future. That being the case, if you want a fairer system which better addresses the needs of Cuban players, you've got to find a more complex solution than you propose. I'm not sure that a collective bargaining agreement couldn't be written to withstand a court challenge if it made exceptions for Japan, Mexico and Korea (indeed, one thing the Japanese have had is the leverage to get their contracts written such that they become free agents when their contracts expire, and have insisted on this provision). Of course, MLB might not want to take the risk. It seems that baseball is getting away with things the way they are, and what they're doing now is less fair than my proposal. Take your pick.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

Any exemptions in a "worldwide" draft would expose such a draft to legal challenges. The worldwide draft works for the NHL and NBA because it has no exemptions, but if MLB tried to tell Dominicans they're suddenly draft-eligible while exempting Japanese -- and, indeed, giving Japanese players additional benefits like super free agency -- the lawyers (and legislatures) would tie the whole thing in about 100 knots.

(Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight with Jim by mentioning Japanese players, but the fact remains, Japanese players can achieve MLB free agency in only 1 year while all other players need at least 6 years of service time.)

[jalbright]

Agente,

I don't know of any available definitive sources to resolve this, but I think the Japanese have been getting free agency once they get to the majors by negotiating for it in their contracts. Does anybody have a link to the appropriate section of the CBA? Perhaps to pass muster under the CBA, they have to put in a year to be able to have such a provision enforced. If that's the case, you could get a CBA dealing with that issue to pass muster in the courts, as everyone would have the opportunity to negotiate such a provision, though the Japanese are about the only ones with the leverage to get away with insisting on it (just like incentive clauses are permissible). The draft is more problematic, as Japanese are being treated differently--but what's going on right now is different treatment, and MLB is getting away with it.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

A couple early Japanese guys negotiated it into their contracts but MLB, after negotiations with Japan, recently (early 2005?) extended such rights to all Japanese players, regardless of service time. Supposedly, it's an additional enticement for attracting Japanese players as well as a way for players to go back to Japan rather than getting stuck in U.S. minors due to contract being optioned, outrighted, renewed, etc.

Strictly from a quality-of-play standpoint, one would think MLB would want to encourage Cubans in the same way, but that's obviously not the case. Common sense says Bud Selig's #1 priority should be to have the absolute best 750 players on MLB rosters, but common sense and MLB rarely collide.

[Agente Libre]

In other news, Michel Abreu returned to Binghamton's lineup Saturday night. He went 0-for-4 with a strikeout, but at least he's back on the field.

Amaury Casanas Marti hasn't played in several days for Springfield (Cardinals, AA). I think he got hurt running the other day; he got pulled for a pinch-runner after a first-inning single.

[Cubano100%]

That is good news about Abreu. I hope playing baseball can minimize the pain of losing his mother. Probably, he does not have any family in America. His teammates are his family in the USA.


08/27/2006 LHP Francisely Bueno was placed on the disabled list retro-active to 8/25.


The Mariners looks like relased LHP Saidel Beltran.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Saydel%20Beltran&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=466473

[Cubano100%]

Folks,


When I started this Thread some time ago, I did it mainly to write about the personal stories of Cuban defectors. I did it to make people aware of their family situation and their progress in their career.

Whether or not Michel Abreu plays in the Majors is secondary to me. It is his mother story and his inability to go back the things I hope everybody remembers.

He already has shown in AA that he deserves a shot at the Majors.

[Martin Dihigo]

Martin, when you say "exploits" as far as Cuban and/or other Latin players, do you mean lower salaries once they reach free agency? Or do you mean in them coming aboard (either via legal entry to the USA and/or their joining an MLB or MLB-affiliated minor league team)? A few examples, since I haven't visited this thread recently, please.

Mattingly (and Jim), what I mean is that OB signs an unduly large number of Latino players for little money at a very young age, and uses them to stock their minor league franchises. Those kids have little opportunity to finish their educations, and are usually signed with small or no bonuses. If they don't reach the Majors, they're left with little but memories.

As Jim says, the Cuban guys reach OB with arguably more experience, at an older age, and are still placed in the same pool with the younger guys - they're inherently looked down upon for being older players in their respective leagues.

[Agente Libre]

Mattingly (and Jim), what I mean is that OB signs an unduly large number of Latino players for little money at a very young age, and uses them to stock their minor league franchises. Those kids have little opportunity to finish their educations, and are usually signed with small or no bonuses. If they don't reach the Majors, they're left with little but memories.

This is true but I'm not sure it's MLB's fault, per se, or that there is a solution. (There's certainly not a short-term solution; it's more of a result of institutionalized problems in the D.R. and elsewhere in Latin America.)

As Jim says, the Cuban guys reach OB with arguably more experience, at an older age, and are still placed in the same pool with the younger guys - they're inherently looked down upon for being older players in their respective leagues.

This is definitely true, and inexplicable. At the risk of another Japan vs. Cuba argument, I've always found it strange how fringe Japanese guys start in the majors by default and have to fail their way to the minors (Shinjo, Taguchi, etc.) while similar, if not better, Cuban players are always forced to start in Class A and work their way up (Michel Abreu, Jorge Toca, Barbaro Canizares, etc.), with many of them never even getting a chance.

Although the leagues are about equal, Japanese players seem to arrive in the U.S. with the "major league" tag while Cubans show up with the "amateur Latin" tag. It's really proof positive of the lousy job MLB does scouting pro-level foreign players.

[jalbright]

The only Japanese player who came over and I expected would succeed but didn't was Kazuo Matsui. The rest of the "failures" weren't well scouted, either, IMO.

I agree about the perception you mention, Agente. I think the one reason is simple: it takes more money to sign Japanese players than Cubans. You're not going to sign many guys to million dollar contracts and park them in the minors. Perhaps the Cuban defectors start out too low on the totem pole, but how many show almost immediately that they deserve to be in AAA or above? If they do, I think they deserve consideration, and I have suggested a way to do just that.

Jim Albright

[cubaxpos]

It's been a while since I posted a comment here but this issue of Japanese and Cuban players really touches close to home.
Jim, I think that your knowledge of Japanese baseball kind of blinds your ability to see how good Cuban baseball players are. Like Agente said in his last comment, the likes of Jorge Luis Toca, Michel Abreu, Barbaro Cañizarez and many other players will probably never play in a Major League baseball field. However, lesser calibre Japanese players (tagged as phenomns) such as, among others, Kaz Matsui, Hideki Irabu, Shinjo, and So Taguchi, reached the majors or are still collecting a check from a Major League team. The system is TOTALLY unfair to Cuban players, who are forced to go through a draft and start in Class A ball, after spending all their lives playing a somewhat competitive, and I would say, AAA baseball. When they get here, they are, unfortunately, tagged as amateurs who have to develop and work on their craft when in reality, in my opinion, they are substantially better that 90% of the Japanese players who have made it to the show.
What happens to Cuban players it's nothing compared to Japanese players, who don't have to endure any of this labeling and are signed to very favorable free agent contracts. Although I might be leaving somebody out, in my opinion, with the exception of Hideo Nomo, Godzilla, Ichiro Suzuki, and Johjima (even though the jury is still out on the latter), Japanese players are a total bust.
Yes, there have been a few busts within our own ballplayers, Osvaldo Fernandez, Rene Arocha, and Rolando Arrojo just to name a few. However, I blame their "failures" on their former lives in Cuba when they had hardly any conditions to live, let alone play baseball. Just so you guys have an idea, I played organized baseball in the lesser categories in Cuba. I met some of the ballplayers that now play in our Serie Nacional, as well as El Duque, Livan Hernandez, Roberto Colina, and Alexis Cabrejas; played with Brayan Peña and Yunel Escobar, and I can tell you in some ball parks we didn't even have running water, let alone Gatorade, so we had to go in between innings to houses close by the park to fill a bucket with water to drink. We used aluminum bats. However, after a while we started using wooden bats because they saw the change to wooden bats coming. Guess what, we had to use nails to repair broken bats. We didn't go to the games by cars nor team buses (I laugh when I read that minor league players find traveling very straining), we had to go the games riding bicycles or in public transportation buses.
I can go on and on about all of these but I think I will be deviating from the topic on hand. In my opinion, MLB policy towards Cuban ballplayers is ridiculous at best. Cuban players should be treated like FA's and should be able to sign FA contracts, whatever they sign for, doesn't necessarily has to be a hefty contract, rather than going through the draft and never get the opportunity to play in the Majors.
My second and last point will be to tell to whomever tries to involve politics in this to let them out of this issue. Whatever happened in the past (i.e. I read a comment where Mariel's boat lift was mentioned) doesn't apply in the present we are living in. These ballplayers are from another generation. A generation that only tries to survive in and out of a Cuba that has been devastated by 47 years of a totalitarian regime. A generation that deals his best with the cards it has been dealt.

[Mattingly]

Mattingly (and Jim), what I mean is that OB signs an unduly large number of Latino players for little money at a very young age, and uses them to stock their minor league franchises. Those kids have little opportunity to finish their educations, and are usually signed with small or no bonuses. If they don't reach the Majors, they're left with little but memories.

As Jim says, the Cuban guys reach OB with arguably more experience, at an older age, and are still placed in the same pool with the younger guys - they're inherently looked down upon for being older players in their respective leagues.
Pardon my ignorance, but who or what is OB?

[J.P]

The only Japanese player who came over and I expected would succeed but didn't was Kazuo Matsui. The rest of the "failures" weren't well scouted, either, IMO.

I agree about the perception you mention, Agente. I think the one reason is simple: it takes more money to sign Japanese players than Cubans. You're not going to sign many guys to million dollar contracts and park them in the minors. Perhaps the Cuban defectors start out too low on the totem pole, but how many show almost immediately that they deserve to be in AAA or above? If they do, I think they deserve consideration, and I have suggested a way to do just that.

Jim Albright

Jim, one of the reasons they dont show right away that they deserve to be in AAA or above is the time they spent away from any decent level of competitive baseball, as a result of MLB unfair treatment!!!! How long were Abreu, Canizares, and Marti stuck in Latin American countries???? Alay Soler, Kendry Morales, Francisley Bueno, Osbeck Castillo and Roberto Alvarez were stuck for a good year or two in DR!!!! JC Muniz was stuck for about two to three years in Brazil!! How long did Yunel Escobar had to sit out waiting for the draft??? And there are still decent level prospects like Juan Miguel Miranda, Amaury Sanit and Yamel Guevara stuck in third countries, wasting their careers away; and then when they finally make it, they are expected to produce right away!

PS: This is not to say all Cuban defectors would had proven to belong in AAA or above, but a good portion of them would had if they had been given the fair treatment by MLB.

[J.P]

Pardon my ignorance, but who or what is OB?

Organized Baseball I guess

[J.P]

Jim, another problem I see with your proposal is that it doesnt come accompanied by a salary cap! If ALL players are quicker to FA or arbitration, then poor teams would never get the chance to rebuild!

[J.P]

Mattingly (and Jim), what I mean is that OB signs an unduly large number of Latino players for little money at a very young age, and uses them to stock their minor league franchises. Those kids have little opportunity to finish their educations, and are usually signed with small or no bonuses. If they don't reach the Majors, they're left with little but memories.

As Jim says, the Cuban guys reach OB with arguably more experience, at an older age, and are still placed in the same pool with the younger guys - they're inherently looked down upon for being older players in their respective leagues.

Martin, I agree with you on these, but I'm not sure these kids would had ever finished ther education anyways, even though MLB signs them for peanuts, its a way out, its the closes thing to becoming something in life that these kids would ever experience.

[jalbright]

Jim, another problem I see with your proposal is that it doesnt come accompanied by a salary cap! If ALL players are quicker to FA or arbitration, then poor teams would never get the chance to rebuild!
First off, I'm not here to solve all of baseball's problems, not that anyone with any authority is listening to me anyway. Secondly, what makes you think the player's union will accept a salary cap? Third, you've endorsed making all international players free agents, if I understand what you've posted. Don't you think American kids will agitate for the same treatment? How does that situation play with your complaint against accelerated free agency?

Jim Albright

[J.P]

First off, I'm not here to solve all of baseball's problems, not that anyone with any authority is listening to me anyway. Secondly, what makes you think the player's union will accept a salary cap? Third, you've endorsed making all international players free agents, if I understand what you've posted. Don't you think American kids will agitate for the same treatment? How does that situation play with your complaint against accelerated free agency?

Jim Albright

I havent endorsed making all foreign FA, but I have endorsed equity!! Either they are all FA, or they all go throgh the draft!!! I know you are not here to solve baseball's problems, but you ventured into making a proposal, and in my mind a big problem with it is the lack of a salary cap because the poor teams are then destined to stay bad forever and ever, you might as well eliminate about 10-15 teams, that as it is are having trouble putting a competitive product out there, if you accelerate the FA or arbitration process, then their product is going to be even worst, and without the possibility of ever getting better through developing their prospects, since these are going to be FA or arbitration eligible before they even stablish themselves with the big club.

[jalbright]

I'm not going to get into going further afield by addressing a salary cap, which has about as much chance of being accepted by the union as a snowflake has of getting through a blast furnace in frozen form. I also think the practical impact of your position on "equity" as you term it is effectively to lead to everybody (Americans, Cubans, Japanese, Koreans, Mexicans, et al) to being a free agent prior to entering organized baseball. That would be even more difficult to deal with if a total franchise salary cap is not in place than my proposal.

Jim Albright

[J.P]

I'm not going to get into going further afield by addressing a salary cap, which has about as much chance of being accepted by the union as a snowflake has of getting through a blast furnace in frozen form. I also think the practical impact of your position on "equity" as you term it is effectively to lead to everybody (Americans, Cubans, Japanese, Koreans, Mexicans, et al) to being a free agent prior to entering organized baseball. That would be even more difficult to deal with if a total franchise salary cap is not in place than my proposal.

Jim Albright

If you look back at my post, I said either they all go through the draft, or they are declared FA, I was referring to foreign players, I dont know how you deduct that equity as I term it will "effectively lead to everybody to be a FA". In any case, the only ones that are not treated as FA are the Cubans, every other player is a FA, of course, American kids have to go through the draft, but the lottery picks get pretty good bonuses, and the only foreign kids who get the 6 figure bonuses are the superb ones in talent, who would anyways be lottery picks if there was a global draft. I dont think the american kids would push for a worlwide draft, they would be competing for spots on that draft with foreign kids that are usually signed for peanuts anyways. In other words, the American kids dont want a worlwide draft, they rather have the draft to themselves, and they have no interest in the "unfairness" of other foreign kids being FA because all those other kids are signed for close to nothing, and the ones that are given good bonuses, would just be getting lottery pick spots from the Americans; so I think that bringing the American kids into this discussion is just out of line, since a global draft would only hurt them, as well as being FA, since they'll be competing for contracts with the foreign kids, while having the draft all to themselves at least assures them a shot at organized baseball.

[J.P]

That would be even more difficult to deal with if a total franchise salary cap is not in place than my proposal.

Jim Albright

I disagree, an amateur FA (unless he is superb) straight out of High School, College, or out of DR, Ven, Mex, Pan, etc (where signing a contract for just room and board is by far the best alternative), will not command a contract nowhere similar to that of a player that has reached the benchmarks proposed by you.

[J.P]

At the risk of starting another conflagration, I still don't understand why the best solution isn't simply to treat Cubans like all other foreign players.

I gotta quote Agente again, I also still dont understand :noidea :noidea :noidea :noidea :noidea :noidea

[Martin Dihigo]

Pardon my ignorance, but who or what is OB?
Sorry Mattingly, I meant "organized baseball"

[Martin Dihigo]

Meanwhile, in San Bernardino, CA, Johan Limonta continues to tear it up . . .

Aug 28 @HDM 1.000 1 1 1 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0
Aug 29 @HDM 1.000 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Aug 30 HDM .750 4 1 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Aug 31 @HDM .000 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sep 01 LAK .000 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sep 02 LAK .500 6 0 3 0 0 0 1 0 2 0 0
Sep 03 LAK .500 4 0 2 0 1 0 2 1 1 0 0
Totals .435 23 2 10 0 1 1 5 1 3 0 0

[Cubano100%]

Francisley Bueno pitched well again, but his team did not score runs for him once again. He is 1-7 with a 3.59 ERA.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_09_04_monaax_msbaax_1

[CameronCrazies]

He'll probably stay a starter, but with a strong showing in ST I think he might earn a spot in the Braves bullpen next season as a lefty specialist. At least a promotion to AAA is warranted. High strikeout's, low walks, 10 homeruns...

I read where he was one of the best left-handed pitchers in Cuba, like Adiel Palma...you guys have any stories?

Was he an average player of above-average?

[Agente Libre]

Palma was a lousy pitcher until he turned about 32 years old, and then suddenly the light came on and he's been dominating.

He plays for one of the worst teams in Cuba, so that probably didn't help his career W-L record much, either.

[J.P]

If I remember correctly, Palma was a very good prospect, he was suppossed to be this good way before, and like Agente said, when everybody had forgotten about him, he became a stud.

[Cubano100%]

Last season, Palma was bad if I recall correctly.

[Agente Libre]

You might be right about last year. Palma is so old now I don't even pay attention to him.

[CameronCrazies]

I was thinking of someone else because this guy pitched for Cuba in the WBC...nevermind.

Any predictions for tonight's game?? USA - 4 Cuba - 3 and Billy Butler will be the star of the game for the US...just a guess.

I wish we could watch on tv!

[Kiefer]

We could say the same about Pestano. His offensive numbers aren't that good in the National Series, but he puts up solid numbers during international events.

America's Olympic Qualifying Tournament
Ariel Pestano, avg: 444, 2 Hr 7 RBI

[Kiefer]

I was thinking of someone else because this guy pitched for Cuba in the WBC...nevermind.

Any predictions for tonight's game?? USA - 4 Cuba - 3 and Billy Butler will be the star of the game for the US...just a guess.

I wish we could watch on tv!

Cuba will beat USA, that's all I know.;)

[Cubano100%]

SS Yuniesky Betancourt batted third yesterday. :clapping

However, I do not think he should be there for long.


Notes: Betancourt bumped up
Better known for defense, shortstop moved to three-hole
http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060905&content_id=1647300&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea

[Cubano100%]

Michel Abreu finished first in ave, OBP and OPS. He also finished second in SLG in his league.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=l_bat&lid=113

[CameronCrazies]

Cuba will beat USA, that's all I know.;)

USA wins 8-5!

http://www.baseball.ch/PanAm/PA.htm

[J.P]

After the success in the WBC, team Cuba has lost the Harlem Baseball Week, the University tournament, and now the Pre Olympic......:eek:

[CameronCrazies]

What is Harlem Baseball Week?

[J.P]

I know as much about it as you do :o I'm sure someone else here can help us out.