Does Dick Mills really know what he is talking about? [Archive]

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RottenGazebo

11-04-2005, 06:49 PM

Does the Dick Mills system for uping your pitching speed really work? Or is he just out to get money?:confused:

ElCaminoSS

11-04-2005, 07:16 PM

ya im suspicious

Ursa Major

11-04-2005, 07:58 PM

I would take a lot of what Mills says with a tremendous grain of salt. He completely revamped the nature of his pitching approaching a few years ago, insisting that he'd had the benefit of new scientific principles, and is dismissive of anyone who doesn't follow these principles. However, he doesn't have the background to truly comprehend the science involved, and so issues a string of pop science pseudobabble.

I kinda like Steve Ellis' "Complete Pitcher" web site (http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/), as his advice seems well-grounded in theory and experience. There's a ton of information for free there, including his free "Ezine" that you can sign up for and which focuses on adding velocity.

pgibbons

11-05-2005, 10:50 AM

Former Major Leaguer and pitching coach Dr. Mike Marshall had this to say about Dick Mills:

"FYI, Dick Mills not only destroyed his son's pitching arm, but he still teaches the same pitching motion to others"

From this website (http://www.drmikemarshall.com/Question-Answer2005.html).

Ursa Major

11-05-2005, 11:43 AM

First of all, Mike Marshall -- with all his pitching experience and his advance degrees -- is considered by the baseball establishment to be a compete flake. Marshall is convinced that anyone who does not use his own bizarre pitching system will destroy their arm. It's sort of sad to see fathers asking questions in Marshall's web site's forums, and have Marshall respond, "Your son can do what his coaches are telling him, but his elbow will be destroyed in six months. Sorry. Good bye." Marshall by contrast teaches a strange motion that is hard to describe, but essentially requires the pitcher to bring his arm straight back, and then fling his whole body forward like a catapault, releasing the ball with the back foot already well in front of the body. (I may be unclear on the details; you have to buy the whole Marshall system to get the details.) Oddly, Marshall in a sense may be correct that this is the only way to take strain off the shoulder and elbow, but it deviates so much from everything you've ever been taught about throwing (much less pitching), that you essentially have to put your entire future into his hands. (Literally -- you move to his camp and live and train there for eight months.) So, what Marshall says about Mills is what he says about virtually every conventional pitching coach.

Second, as much as I may disagree with Mills, I don't think it's fair to take the example of one of his pupils and assume that the failure of the pupil (in this case, his son) is attributable to his system. His son was a promising pitcher whose career was ended by injury. The arm is a complex thing, and a lot of reasons could explain the injury. And, as I noted, what Mills may have taught him then may be different from what he is preaching now.

chisox2k5

11-05-2005, 02:39 PM

I prowled Mill's forum a while ago, and the main thing I remember was that he said weight lifting is BAD until you are some ridiculous age.

He also said creatine causes kidny failure is dangerous (which it doesent, and which it isnt)

XFactor

11-05-2005, 07:35 PM

I don't think he is out for money. His son is a millionare, and Dick himself is doing quite fine. He said (and no I haven't looked at his reciepts, just taking his word for it) that he has spent thousands of dollars trying to better understand pitching and the science involved in it. And he is also writing a 500+ page book with a very well known science person.

Much of what he says makes sense. At least he is trying to better himself and admits that he is wrong, where as other pitching "gurus" (spelling?) Think they know everything, and if you prove them wrong they hate and despise you

Jake Patterson

11-05-2005, 08:45 PM

Dick Mills has been around for a while. As a middle school pitcher I would not get too involved with coach's that have a "revolutionary" way to teach pitching. There are a hundred coaches like Mills out there, many come and go. Most try to sell a "revolutionary method" so you buy their product.
Much of what Dick teaches is sound, but confusing. Pitching, like hitting is accomplished with rotational and linear force, Dick likes to call this "Elastic Energy" I think all it does is confuse the younger players.
For someone like yourself I would recommend going to a baseball training facility. Check out America's Game, and The Hitting Zone, (Hiddengem is part owner. I went to his site and it looks pretty good). They will give you an idea of what you should be looking for in your area. If you can't find one, ask your local high school coach. Spending $30-35 at a place like this is sometimes much more responsible than having your parents buy Dick's program for $400.00. If it doesn't work out - you're only out the $30-35

louisvilleslugger

11-05-2005, 08:54 PM

I would take a lot of what Mills says with a tremendous grain of salt. He completely revamped the nature of his pitching approaching a few years ago, insisting that he'd had the benefit of new scientific principles, and is dismissive of anyone who doesn't follow these principles. However, he doesn't have the background to truly comprehend the science involved, and so issues a string of pop science pseudobabble.

Why change your style?
Didn't Tiger Woods struggle for a couple years trying to redesign his golf swing?
Why Reinvent the wheel?

If it works then use it.

To me it's just another guy trying to bring some fresh concepts to the game which may or may not be a small factor.

If your pitching techniques work and you have good mechanics use them.

hit-it-hard

11-05-2005, 11:28 PM

If you're really interested in understanding pitching mechanics, I would recommend reading everything I could on pitching-mechanics.org. The information has been invaluable to me - and you can also post your video clips and have them reviewed by very knowledgeable folks. The site is free although you do need to register (site does not spam registered users).

Definitely would recommend this before spending the bucks on Mills program.

hit-it-hard

Ursa Major

11-06-2005, 06:19 PM

Louisvilleslugger said: If it works then use it.
To me it's just another guy trying to bring some fresh concepts to the game which may or may not be a small factor.
Louisville, you quoted my doubts about Mills' thinking, and then said this, among other things. I'm not sure if you intended to disagree with me on some point.

I have no problem with someone "bringing fresh concepts", but it's like using prayer to cure cancer. It's fine if you believe it, but don't forego what may be better cures until it's too late. Some of Mills ideas on techniques may well be worth trying without any risk, and you can disgard them if they don't work. But, if you take them as gospel without trying other methods, you may not be getting everything out of your pitching.

I think Jake's idea of getting an experienced local coach to give you a session or two is excellent. I would start with someone who's taught kids like you and who has gotten good reviews. Just because someone is a high school coach or a former pro doesn't mean they know how to teach kids like you. If there's something on Mills' site that you think might help, you can ask his opinion as to how they might help YOU.

chisox2k5

11-06-2005, 08:26 PM

louisvilleslugger

11-06-2005, 08:45 PM

Ursa Major
I appologize I should of been more elaborate and clear.
I wasn't quoting to disagree.
What I meant by if it works use it, is if the pitching technique you all ready have works use that instead of looking to a man teaching new concepts that may not even be a factor to helping you at all.

Sorry it might of looked like I was leaning towards follow Mills concepts but I actually meant just the opposite.

I totally agree on take his teachings with a grain of salt for the record.

runningshoes

11-06-2005, 09:54 PM

Everyones always trying to build a better mouse trap, but we still can't catch the mice.

Ursa Major

11-07-2005, 03:20 PM

Louisville, no apology necessary. I was just trying to clarify your position, as it seemed that you and I were pretty much in agreement. Usually people quote someone else to either expressly agree with them or, more frequently, take shots at their opinions.

wogdoggy

11-23-2005, 06:21 AM

A friend of mine let me use his 3 dick mills tapes.The tapes show the towel drill and others and like ANY information if you look hard enough you can find some GOOD.Dick mills has a FEW ggood things in his 3 tape series.They become boring very quickly.I also bought ron wolforths athletic pitcher program which has only backtraining workouts for pitchers.ZERO on mechanics.I also viewed a TOM HOUSE tape wher he was pitching with Randy Johnson and NOlan RYan,this tape also had some Great pointers.So look for the Good stuff in these info tapes and use it.No one is Better than another .:gt

XFactor

11-25-2005, 04:37 PM

Why change your style?
Didn't Tiger Woods struggle for a couple years trying to redesign his golf swing?
Why Reinvent the wheel?

If it works then use it.

To me it's just another guy trying to bring some fresh concepts to the game which may or may not be a small factor.

If your pitching techniques work and you have good mechanics use them.

Tiger Woods did struggle, why reinvent the wheel. Why try and become better. Let's all throw 80 MPH and call it a day... who would want to become better?

I guess some of you aren't that competitive... Tiger Woods is... he knew he used his swing to it's full potential, and people would be trying to copy it and be just as good as him in no time. So he revamped it to become even better. What's wrong with that?

Yes, if you can throw 94 MPH and throw every pitch in any count for a strike 100% of the time, you obviously have nothing to change. But if you can't... THEN YOU NEED WORK

Kripler1

11-28-2005, 04:39 PM

Who is dick mills. I never have heard of him:hp :hp :hp :hp :confused: :confused: :confused: :noidea :noidea

jbooth

11-28-2005, 05:19 PM

Who is dick mills. I never have heard of him:hp :hp :hp :hp :confused: :confused: :confused: :noidea :noidea

He pitched 3.2 innings for the Boston Red Sox in 1970.

He has been selling pitcher training videos since at least 1990.

Kripler1

11-29-2005, 02:42 PM

Oh............................. Thank - you

Coach45

12-05-2005, 12:42 PM

I disagree radically with the thought that Dr. Marshall is a flake. If you take the time to understand what he is teaching you will know, absolutely, positively, that he is correct. It is one thing to debate unverifiable 'opinions' and yet another to debate over scientific facts.

Currently I teach Dr. Marshall's mechanics. We train seven days per week, throwing an equivalent of over 100 pitches per day. Young men learning these mechanics WILL NOT injure their throwing arm because of biomechanical flaws. A high schooler I am training won a State Legion Championship using this methodology in summer 2005. He stands to be the best pitcher in our state come spring of 2006.

After the 2003 MLB draft, when my son was drafted, I started researching pitching-arm injuries. In the past two years I have invested well over 1500 hours of my time studying this. While other guys can claim that they have the answers, I can provide PROOF that they do not know what they are talking about. Ask me a specific question and I will provide a factual, scientifically based answer.

If you have a son who wants to pitch, you need to know Dr. Marshall.

hiddengem

12-05-2005, 01:15 PM

I know personally many Major League and Minor League pitchers who are students of Tom House. Randy Johnson and Greg Maddox to name a few. I haven't talked to him in quite a while but I know he has quite a following.

Ryan Mills was genetically gifted out of college, tall and could throw average major league speed (91+) from the left side, and so he was drafted high and cashed in.

If I'm not mistaken he has since blown out his arm in pro ball and I haven't heard much about him. This is not to say that his dad doesn't know what he is talking about, but on the other hand I haven't heard many positives about him in the professional arena. Many folks will tell you that his dad has ridden the coat tails of his son straight to the bank. He had a add in BaseballAmerica for quite a while (might still be there) talking about his 1st round son. This is not my opinion, but what I have heard.

Coach45

12-05-2005, 10:21 PM

I personally know young men who trained with Tom House that blew out their Ulnar Collateral Ligament, necessitating Tommy John surgery if they wised to continue in baseball. I know what causes these injuries and Tom House is responsible for teaching the mechanics that caused the injuries. Personally responsible in my opinion. Just because he has a following and has worked with major league pitchers does not mean that he knows what he is talking about.

You might ask Randy Johnson why he blew out his knee last year, putting him on the Disabled List. I suspect it is because Mr. House told him that, in order to release the ball closer to home plate, he had to increase his stride length. The posting knee takes a horrendous beating when you do so. Look at pictures. Likewise, imagine the damage being done to the glove-side hip. Why do professional pitchers have hip replacement surgery at rates so far above the national norms? Look at pics; the conclusions should be obvious, yet we seem to ignore the obvious.

I also know, personally, a young man that has had nine, count them, nine arm surgeries, all caused by pitching. The major league team that employed him released him. Would you say that their pitching coaches were competent? In the legal sense, the word negligent comes to mind. Just because they work with professional pitchers does not mean they know what they are doing. The good old boy network is alive and well, to the detriment of pitchers everywhere.

Using Dr. Marshall's pitching mechanics none of these injuries are a factor. If you are willing to invest the time, you also will understand why. By the way, guys trained this way who actually do what Doc requires of them (statistically rare) increase their release velocity, throw a huge selection of pitches that make what MLB pitchers throw look weak in comparison, and throw with maximum intensity each and every day. No one in professional baseball (or anywhere else) can do this, let alone stay injury free. Go look at the history of the disabled list from the last couple of seasons. If you have the courage, prove it to yourself. The idea of 'overuse' is a crock.

By the way, average major league speed is not 91+, it is much closer to 88. I know. I talk with an area scouting supervisor on a pretty regular basis. Gotta go and let my blood pressure come back down.

Ursa Major

12-06-2005, 01:05 AM

Hey, Coach45, thanks for weighing in. Please note that I did not say that I myself thought that Marshall is a flake, but that many others do so. I think we can agree on that point, and he rails about the way the "establishment" treats his ideas.

I really would like to jump on the Marshall bandwagon. I love the idea of having an open enough mind to see when conventional wisdom is faulty and embracing new thinking, the way I have with rotational mechanics in hitting. I spent the better part of a day cruising around his web site reading his ideas. But, I just can't do join up with the good doctor.

The problems that I have with Marshall are these:
1. He never really tells you on his web site what exactly his motion looks like. You have to dig, dig, dig through theory to finally get a sparse description of it. And he has no video or photos! We're just supposed to take it on faith.

2. He, like you in your posts, engages in the sort of histrionics about ruining arms that allegedly comes from conventional wisdom. Yes, tens of thousands of young men pitch every year and many have serious arm miseries. And many more don't. Until we come up with a scientific assessment of what kind of injuries flow from what kind of training, we're stuck with anecdotal evidence about arm problems. Pitching overhand is an unnatural act regardless of what you do; many will get hurt.

3. You really can't learn his system unless you go to live with him, although there are apparently a few coaches like you whose faith makes it possible for others to learn. Terrific. And it's nice to get at least one success story. But, frankly, given that the technique apparently is so revolutionary, we're going to need to have a lot more success stories to get people to turn around. And a lot more measured, independent studies of his graduates to substantiate his (and your) assertions that his system is guaranteed to prevent arm woes. But he does not apparently have a single name of someone who has so succeeded. And he's been teaching this system for a long time.

So, I think that it is asking for a phenomenal leap of faith for others to embrace Marshall. And, even if they did, what good would it do if they simply can't run out to your program or Marshall's facility to get trained? If the tree only falls in another forest, no one here can hear it, so it may as well not have fallen, if you follow me.

Would you and your success story be willing to post videos and stats (including "before and after" velocity numbers) somewhere so that we can see what Marshall really is about?

jbooth

12-06-2005, 01:13 AM

Coach45

12-06-2005, 08:31 AM

Gentlemen,

Thank you kindly for your thoughts. Finally, a couple of intelligent guys who are at least willing to question convential wisdom, and rather eloquently. As I have time later today I will answer each of your questions more in-depth.

There are two pitchers who have thrown in the major leagues with at least a variant of Dr. Marshall's mechanics. Case number one: Dr. Marshall, though he had not yet learned everything he now knows, threw with the same arm action that he teaches today. With this arm action it is possible to throw a screwball (he had the best of all time) without arm problems, hence he owns the all-time record for closer-relief innings in a single season. He discovered this arm action by conductng active, scientific research using high-speed film (500 frames per second). He was both the researcher and the subject of the research. People within the baseball establishment pass Doc off as a 'freak' because they do not understand what he did. (By the way, he was there as a teammate of Tommy John the day John ruptured his UCL.) Case number two: Dr. Marshall does not wish to ride anyone's coattails and refrains from using the second gentleman's name; I will honor his wishes. Having spent time in Doc's Zephyrhills, Florida training facility, it has been my privelege to become familiar with this young man. Dr. Marshall trained this young man, first at the college level where he threw in the 83 mph range. When he threw in pros (MLB) he was clocked as high as 96-97 mph. I have seen him throw, sitting directly behind the receiving net, watching pitches do things that make conventional wisdom look decrepit. If you dig deep enough you can discover his name. I will tell you that he threw two years for a southeastern U.S. MLB franchise. Yes, at the major league level. If memory serves right his combined ERA is about 3.7.

You must understand that, like anything new, Dr. Marshall's research is a work in progress. Having spent vast time over the past two years learning what he is teaching I have seen numerous small changes made in his pedagogy. He is very, very close to having it all complete, right down to the finest details.

In calling the acceptance of an idea 'faith,' you are absolutely correct. However, faith is not blind. Though my background is in a science-related field I was not remotely equipped to understand what Marshall is teaching. Learning what I now know about Anatomy, Physiology,Kinesiology, Applied Biomechanics and Physics has been tremendous fun. (My investigations into these fields has also taught me that some purported 'experts' in each of these fields makes mis-statements of scientific fact.) The young man I am training has also been afforded the benefit of learning about these subjects, for we talk about them daily as I continue to learn.

On the flip side, to accept the conventional wisdom is also a leap of faith. This leap of faith appears blind if you are willing to take current injury stats as acceptable. In 2003 alone, MLB pitchers on the disabled list cost major league franchises (and consequently their customers) over $200 million in lost salaries. This does not include replacement costs or medical costs. More importantly it does not include the human cost. Someone's husband, father, and/or son was maimed. The evidence for the injury scenario is not anecdotal. If you take the time to understand what Dr. Marshall is saying (granted, he could make it easier and I hope to assist him in making this possible) you will understand the specific flaws that cause specific injuries. The next video he will be releasing shows high-speed film of the traditional pitching motion. What you 'think' the arm does is not what the arm (and shoulder girdle) actually does. What Dr. Marshall calls 'reverse forearm bouce' will make you cringe. When you see it you will understand UCL injuries. I agree that he needs get this in people's hands so that they can see for themselves.

I will do everything I can to help you understand. Is there a way to post pics...I'm new to Internet forums? I will post more to this tonight when I return from work.

Sorry. Gotta run.

hiddengem

12-06-2005, 08:53 AM

IBy the way, average major league speed is not 91+, it is much closer to 88. I know. I talk with an area scouting supervisor on a pretty regular basis. Gotta go and let my blood pressure come back down.

As far as your "I know everything" comment about the major league fastball being 88. Maybe the guy you think is a scouting supervisor is really an insurance salesman who has you fooled. If the Major league average fastball was 88..heck every 3rd highschool in america would have 2 right handed pitchers on their team with a major league average fastball.

To set the record straight...The average Major League fastball for a left handed pitcher is 88-89. for a righty its 90-91.

Hey, I never said Tom House is a god or knows everything. I just said I know alot of players that have worked with him, none of them by the way have hurt their arm.

I also know players that have blown out their arms with pretty darn good mechanics. The harder you have the ablility to throw and put stress on your arm, the higher the chances are you are going to get hurt, so don't start thowing people under the bus when you really don't know everything.

Coach45

12-06-2005, 11:02 AM

As far as your "I know everything" comment about the major league fastball being 88. Maybe the guy you think is a scouting supervisor is really an insurance salesman who has you fooled. If the Major league average fastball was 88..heck every 3rd highschool in america would have 2 right handed pitchers on their team with a major league average fastball.

To set the record straight...The average Major League fastball for a left handed pitcher is 88-89. for a righty its 90-91.

Hey, I never said Tom House is a god or knows everything. I just said I know alot of players that have worked with him, none of them by the way have hurt their arm.

I also know players that have blown out their arms with pretty darn good mechanics. The harder you have the ablility to throw and put stress on your arm, the higher the chances are you are going to get hurt, so don't start thowing people under the bus when you really don't know everything.

You have misspoken. The area scouting supervisor I speak of has become a very, very close personal friend. He is the same gentleman who sat in my living room and offered my son a contract to play for a MLB franchise. I am sitting at my desk looking at the contract (which we did not sign) and a cover letter from the parent club. The cover letter begins with: "In accordance with Major League Rule 4(e)(1), this Notice is to advise you that during the 2003 Selection Meeting our club selected the exclusive negotiation rights to your services as a professional baseball player........" Signed by the Director of Amateur Scouting. Perhaps you should think before you accuse. I suppose I could ask you about listing your occupation as 'pro baller.' What level? What position? What is your academic training in applied sciences?

I do not claim to know everything. I DO know why pitchers injure their arms. When you say that pitchers you know, with what you think are pretty darn good mechanics, blow out their arms, you would be wise to ask, 'why.' The mechanics that pitchers at all levels of baseball throw with and are currently taught is precisely what injures the throwing arm. To couch this as "the harder you have the ablility to throw and put stress on your arm, the higher the chances are you are going to get hurt, so don't start thowing people under the bus when you really don't know everything," tells me that you do not understand injury mechanisms. You are not alone, and that is the point.

Depending upon the particular biomechanical flaws pitchers exhibit, coupled with the specific timing inherent with that individual, determines which injury they will experience and to what extent. Would you say that John Smoltz has 'pretty darn good mechanics?' Explain to me the specific injury mechanism that has required him to have elbow surgery six times. Why did Mark Prior (a Tom House protege), nationally acclaimed in the press and in Will Carroll's book, Saving The Pitcher, as having PERFECT mechanics, rupture his UCL? And this, after Dr. Marshall specifically predicted that it would happen. You can find the documentation on the Chicago Tribune website. If you want the specific address I will dig through my files and find it.

True, using traditional mechanics the harder you throw, and the longer you do it, the likelihood of specific injury goes up. Using Marshall's mechanics, imperfectly, my son threw into the mid-90's this summer and continues to throw with this intensity every single day, seven days per week. With the overload training he is doing now he throws an equivalent of well over 180 pitches per day, seven days per week. Muscle fatigue? You bet, but he is not doing structural damage to the elbow and/or shoulder. The high school guy I am training currently puts in a minimum of over 150 reps per day, seven days per week. Perhaps you would like to speak with them. Don't take it from me. I can and will arrange a contact if you care.

It is not my intent to throw anyone under the bus. In this endeavor I know what I am speaking of. Your response tells me that you do not. Unknowingly perhaps, but you are nonetheless mistaken.

jbooth

12-06-2005, 12:19 PM

I will do everything I can to help you understand. Is there a way to post pics...I'm new to Internet forums?

You must upload your picture or video to a location provided by your internet service provider. Not all providers, give you that space. Call your support desk.

Once you have uploaded to a server, it is easy. Just click on the icons above where you type your text and insert the URL of where your pictures/clips are.

The icons are the one that looks like a globe with a chain link, and the one that looks like a picture of a mountain.

hiddengem

12-06-2005, 12:50 PM

I suppose I could ask you about listing your occupation as 'pro baller.' What level? What position? What is your academic training in applied sciences?

With the overload training he is doing now he throws an equivalent of well over 180 pitches per day, seven days per week.

I've played at every level of pro-ball A-Major League. Attended Pepperdine University on 100% scholarship.

I can hardly believe you are allowing yourself to admit you let your son throw the equivalent of 180 pitches per day 7 days a week. I sure hope your son signed that professional contract you spoke about..did he?

I believe the reason Prior blew out is because Pro-ball is a different world and most kids (and apparantly parents too) have no idea the wear and tear a full season of pro-ball has on your body. I happens to infielders, outfielders and all positions, not just pitchers. Why do you think pitchers are on such a strict pitch count these days? Clubs know that overuse, no matter how good the mechanics is a recipe for Surgery.

Coach45

12-06-2005, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ursa Major (responses italicized)
Hey, Coach45, thanks for weighing in. Please note that I did not say that I myself thought that Marshall is a flake, but that many others do so. I think we can agree on that point, and he rails about the way the "establishment" treats his ideas.

I did not sense that you believed Dr. Marshall is a flake. Rather, I indicated that I hate the thought that anyone would consider him such. At times he does 'dis' people, which I agree is counterproductive whether or not he is correct.

I really would like to jump on the Marshall bandwagon. I love the idea of having an open enough mind to see when conventional wisdom is faulty and embracing new thinking, the way I have with rotational mechanics in hitting. I spent the better part of a day cruising around his web site reading his ideas. But, I just can't do join up with the good doctor.

The problems that I have with Marshall are these:
1. He never really tells you on his web site what exactly his motion looks like. You have to dig, dig, dig through theory to finally get a sparse description of it. And he has no video or photos! We're just supposed to take it on faith.

It is true that seeing is believing. Only through serious, concerted effort on my part, with much trial and error (with a lot of Dr. Marshall's help and input) have I learned what he advocates. Soon he will be producing a video that will includes high-speed film of his pitching motion, high-speed film of the traditional pitching motion, and a complete how-to on how to teach his mechanics. I spoke with him this morning and he hopes to have this ready for production in the next few months.

2. He, like you in your posts, engages in the sort of histrionics about ruining arms that allegedly comes from conventional wisdom. Yes, tens of thousands of young men pitch every year and many have serious arm miseries. And many more don't. Until we come up with a scientific assessment of what kind of injuries flow from what kind of training, we're stuck with anecdotal evidence about arm problems. Pitching overhand is an unnatural act regardless of what you do; many will get hurt.

Last things first: by repeating the historical line "overhead throwing is an unnatural act...." you reveal that you take this as fact. Please, let me rewrite it for you. "Overhead throwing as we currently know it is an unnatural act that guarantees injury." Dr. Marshall has spent over forty years carefully, scientifically researching how we throw baseballs overhand. The scientific assessment already exists. Again people need to see it and Doc's upcoming video should put an end to this portion of the debate. If I could write the script he would have released this information long ago. I have seen high-speed film. Dr. Marshall has also told me of cursory, preliminary research he did for a major league team. When the general manager showed these high speed films to the pitching coach he was told "never to show them to his pitchers." The pitching arm and shoulder do not do what you think they do. When you actually see what the arm and shoulder go through in the traditional pitching motion you will understand why the conventional wisdom is wrong.

3. You really can't learn his system unless you go to live with him, although there are apparently a few coaches like you whose faith makes it possible for others to learn. Terrific. And it's nice to get at least one success story. But, frankly, given that the technique apparently is so revolutionary, we're going to need to have a lot more success stories to get people to turn around. And a lot more measured, independent studies of his graduates to substantiate his (and your) assertions that his system is guaranteed to prevent arm woes. But he does not apparently have a single name of someone who has so succeeded. And he's been teaching this system for a long time.

If you or anyone else cares to learn you can teach your son these mechanics. I have learned enough to teach someone fairly advanced skills; enough to win a State Legion Championship. It took a lot of time and I have thrived on it. For older, highly skilled athletes to learn what Marshall advocates it is best that they work with him every day, seven days per week. Who else can teach them? Who would not want to learn from a guy that won the Cy Young, who also has a PhD in Exercise Physiology. My son is currently doing so, and for all intents and purposes has been at Doc's since June of 2004. Mastering the incredibly complex neuromuscular sequences of what he teaches older pitchers to do requires that they 'unlearn' the traditional pitching motion. Talk about hard. For younger kids who have never known anything else the learning curve will be much shorter.

Defining 'success' as guys who make it in the big leagues is tragic. The chances of making it in the Bigs is almost zero...and my son is a pro prospect. How about defining success as keeping multitudes of kids injury free? The injuries to boys and young men are crippling and permanently deforming, robbing them of joy later in life. All of these specific injuries are completely unnecessary. I pitched at the college D1 level and tore up my shoulder. For years I couldn't throw with any intensity because of pain. I have trained myself to throw with Doc's mechanics (imperfectly, because I cannot devote the time to daily training) and I can throw high school batting practice all day long if I want...except for fatigue I would be pain free. Getting older is tough.

As I addressed in an earlier post, besides training himself (and winning the Cy Young) one additional protege has pitched in major league baseball. Dr. Marshall will not give you his name. Out of respect I will honor his wises, though I gave you some clues.

So, I think that it is asking for a phenomenal leap of faith for others to embrace Marshall. And, even if they did, what good would it do if they simply can't run out to your program or Marshall's facility to get trained? If the tree only falls in another forest, no one here can hear it, so it may as well not have fallen, if you follow me.

Someone has to take responsibility for teaching them. If you don't know someone who knows how I suggest that you do it yourself. It will be worth it and I know you are capable. Dr. Marshall is only one guy and so am I. When people find out that they can't beat our guys they will join us. Dr. Marshall has always answered my e-mails and always returned my phone calls, and there have been a whole bunch over that past two years. If you embark on this I can fairly say that he will stand by you. If you need another set of ears or eyes I too will do the same, at my expense if I can. Shouldn't this tell you something?

Would you and your success story be willing to post videos and stats (including "before and after" velocity numbers) somewhere so that we can see what Marshall really is about?

If you can explain to me how to post video I will figure out how to put it online. I think my high school lefty would agree to this, though I will need to check. I will also ask my son if I can use excerpts from his first-year video. After digging through piles and piles of info here are my high schooler's stats from summer 2005:

65 Innings Pitched; 78 Strikeouts; 39 Walks; 57 Hits Allowed (11 for extra bases); Zero Home Runs Allowed; 2.8 ERA

This was accomplished after four months of daily training, starting with the most basic of Dr. Marshall's drills. From my vantage point he was barely ready to pitch. The second time around, spring of 2006, we will get of taste of what he can be, as a high school senior. Currently he has fastballs that can move to either side of the plate, a screwball that breaks down and away from right-handed hitters (the way he throws it now it acts more like a sinker), and a curveball that bites hard down and into right-handers. Last year he had only two of these pitches ready, and not nearly so proficient as now. His velocities should be in the low- to mid-80's this spring. As a traditional pitcher I do not remember him topping 73-75...I do not believe he would ever have thrown near the mid 80's with conventional mechanics.

Thanks for your questions. Sorry if I got a bit long.

Coach45

12-06-2005, 02:31 PM

I've played at every level of pro-ball A-Major League. Attended Pepperdine University on 100% scholarship.

I can hardly believe you are allowing yourself to admit you let your son throw the equivalent of 180 pitches per day 7 days a week. I sure hope your son signed that professional contract you spoke about..did he?

I believe the reason Prior blew out is because Pro-ball is a different world and most kids (and apparantly parents too) have no idea the wear and tear a full season of pro-ball has on your body. I happens to infielders, outfielders and all positions, not just pitchers. Why do you think pitchers are on such a strict pitch count these days? Clubs know that overuse, no matter how good the mechanics is a recipe for Surgery.

Congratulations on your ball career. Sorry if I jumped your case a bit. I'm weary of conventional diatribe and wish for genuine debate. I've done my homework.

I agree that overuse, with traditonal mechanics, is a recipe for surgery. Dr. Marshall's way to throw is radically different; it is more akin to throwing a javelin. Structural damage is not an issue when the arm and shoulder are used in a biomechanically sound way. These guys throw this much because they can. If you did it, with your mechanics, you would destroy your arm in short order. My son is currently throwing a ten-pound iron ball, just like he throws the baseball, 96 reps per day in addition to the other throws. If you or anyone else did this with conventional mechanics, one time only, it would be your last and you would head directly for the emergency room. By the way, Dr. Marshall predicted the specific injury that would happen to Mark Prior, before it happened. When you understand, if you wish to understand, that the baseball actually accelerates downward and backward when traditional pitchers 'cock,' you will understand that using the UCL like a giant rubberband is a really bad idea. Short version: Doc has designed a way to throw that doesn't do this.

How do you think that Marshall managed to throw in 106 games, 208 innings in one season as a closer/reliever? After a 14-year pro career he continued to pitch for, I think, nearly 30 years. Except for an accident at home when some shelving toppled over on him, his arm is intact. I don't know anyone else like that. Excepting modifications to make the mechanic more efficient, this is how he threw when he won the Cy Young. Doc threw bowling balls just like he threw the baseball. I know this is difficult to wrap the mind around. The point is it can be done and be done without destroying the arm. There is a different and better way to throw. That is what offends.

You did not say if you were a pitcher or hitter. No matter. As a pitcher how would you like to have thrown fastballs, at fastball velocity, that could attack both sides of the plate (that is, moving in or moving away)? How would you like to have thrown breaking balls and reverse breaking balls that were minus 20 mph? The best MLB breaking balls, from research, make about 10-12 complete revolutions on their way to home plate. I have high-speed film of my son throwing breaking pitches that rotate more than 25 times on the way to home plate. You can see and count each and every rotation of the ball...not so with video. Which pitch is going to move more? On top of this, how would you like to throw sinkers and sliders that are minus 10 mps? From the hitting side how would you like to outguess this pitcher? You could not possibly sit on a fastball. Goose Gossage saw my son throw a bullpen this summer. He kept asking how he could throw a slider so hard with such devastating movement. I kept telling him that he was in fact throwing fastballs. He told me no one can throw a fastball that moves like this. Not true. I have seen fastballs, at fastball velos, that move two home plate-widths laterally.

Agreed, pro ball is a different animal. You are right that position players and outfielders experience the same injuries, though less frequently. They obviously don't throw as much, with as much sustained energy as pitchers, yet they also tear up shoulders and UCL's? Shouldn't this tell us something? These injuries aren't limited to the pros. I have read medical journal articles that detail where a handful of nine-year olds have had Tommy John surgery. I personally know high schoolers who ruptured their UCL just playing catch. Pitch counts do nothing more that mitigate damage that is growing a pitch at a time. Marshall's mechanics completely negate this line of thinking.

I hope we can continue our discussion. I am not insane for allowing my son to throw this much, this way. One specific big league club understands. When the time is right he will get his shot...he's not ready yet.

hiddengem

12-06-2005, 03:28 PM

Coach45

12-06-2005, 04:09 PM

I'm a hitter..stopped pitching in Highschool. How old is your son? If he has devastating movement on his fastball (assuming he's around major league average 90ish) and he can throw the equivalent to 180 pitches a day, why is he not ready? Something isn't adding up, you say your son had a a contract in front of him ready to sign. Did he get drafted? HighSchool, college?

Age 20. Drafted out of high school 2003 MLB amateur draft. When he was drafted he was offered 1st contract signing opportunity, just like the rules require. Decided to go the JUCO route. Declined opportunity to sign a 2nd offer because we/he had made the decision to train with Marshall after much, much serious consideration. I pitched at the college D-1 level before destroying my shoulder. I know what it is like to go through life with pain and do not want the same for my son. There is an option and the option is better than the status quo.

He is not yet ready on several accounts. To be different you have to be better than everyone else. In the end it will not be these fastballs that are the bread and butter. Perfecting, mastering the breaking balls and reverse-breaking balls (screwballs) takes a lot of time. And then there are the sinkers and sliders. With time and training a single pitcher can throw them all. When he can throw each and every pitch, in the sequences Marshall wants him to, with both control and velos that can't be ignored, he will likely go back and destroy college hitters. It is better to do this far from MLB. When the time comes he will have his shot. There is no reason to push it. (By the way, with this mechanic the screwball is the easiest pitch on the throwing arm.)

The thing that does not add up is that as a family we view money strictly as a means to an end, so this is not about money. If everything goes the way I believe it will, he will have an opportunity to prove to the world that this can be done another way and that the other way (Marshall's) comes closer to truth. People resist change, but in business when you can't beat them you join them. (Unless, like the Yankees, you can buy them.) In the end this is genuinely about ending unnecessary throwing-arm injuries. I am not naive and time will write the end of this story.

As a pro hitter you know that there are fastballs, and then there are fastballs. The very, very best have a run or tail of, what, about 6-8 inches. One former AAA hitter my son faced this summer swung at a 2-strike fastball that he thought was on the outside corner. It ran in hard and almost got him on the hands and his swing was late. He popped up to third base. It hurt. How do you like to hit pitches of any speed that move dramatically as opposed to 95 mph fastballs with little life? I already know your answer. With Marshall's mechanics breaking balls and screwballs don't take a toll on the arm.

I appreciate your questions and wish you the best.

hiddengem

12-06-2005, 04:42 PM

I truely wish your son the very best, and I hope he achieves his dreams. Most of us that have had the opportunity to play a the professional level learn and understand what its like to be humbled and have your lunch handed to you. This may or may not happen to him and I hope it doesn't, but make sure he is prepared mentally to handle this if it comes his way. By the way..throw me a PM with his name..I'd like to follow his upcoming season.

What round was he drafted in out of highschool?

I do understand your comment on Money, but trust me, if he passed up on an opportunity to seal his finacial future and blows out in college or performs poorly he and you will be kicking yourself.

Any pitchers in pro-ball right now using Marshalls mechanics?...I've never heard his name mentioned.

Ursa Major

12-06-2005, 07:12 PM

Coach, I appreciate your analogy to javelin throwing, as that is how I'd pictured Marshall's technique. It sounds a bit like slinging -- which of course presents risks of elbow problems -- but I guess if you have enough shoulder action to propel the arm and don't snap the elbow too early, that would take a lot of pressure off. What also struck me is that you release with your arm-side leg a lot further forward than under conventional techniques, which would seem to require a lot of getting used to.

Last things first: by repeating the historical line "overhead throwing is an unnatural act...." you reveal that you take this as fact. Please, let me rewrite it for you. "Overhead throwing as we currently know it is an unnatural act that guarantees injury." Well, maybe it's not so unnatural if Dr. M. has you throwing the way that ancient cavemen threw a spear. :)
Dr. Marshall has spent over forty years carefully, scientifically researching how we throw baseballs overhand. The scientific assessment already exists. With all due respect to Marshall, the world is full of people with scientific credentials who nonetheless draw conclusions ill-supported by their research. Before poor Terri Schiavo's autopsy, certain religious groups were hauling out experts who insisted that she was doing differential calculus while she snoozed. Dick Mills purports to rely on scientific evidence, and he's got all sorts of obvious holes in his teachings. And, I know from my own line of work (law) that you can hire an "expert" to testify as to just about anything.

Marshall may know his kinesiology, but he's got to know that he needs to do something akin to a controlled study before anyone can take his claims of safety seriously. Anything short of that is -- I'm sorry to tell you -- still anecdotal. People are left to pulling out Mark Prior or Kerry Wood stories -- and I disagree that Prior has a perfect motion; he indeed is a disaster waiting to happen.

Again people need to see it and Doc's upcoming video should put an end to this portion of the debate. I have seen high-speed film. I don't see how a video can convince people of safety. I think at best it will get people to do what Epstein and high speed film did for hitting. But even then -- with people showing that major leaguers already were doing what Epstein wanted to teach people, you still run into resistance from people who insist on teaching techniques that are not designed to achieve the look of the swing that they're aiming for. Marshall has to teach people to look differently, which will be harder. Of course, he does have the advantage of being able to use numbers in a sense to prove his point. A new hitting method can only prove itself by a hitter going out and banging the ball for two months. A new pitching method, by contrast, can prove its merit by simply having a kid go out and throw for ten minutes. If his heater lights up the gun with a ten MPH improvement over his previous year's best and his hook breaks another four inches, coaches can become instant believers.
Dr. Marshall has also told me of cursory, preliminary research he did for a major league team. When the general manager showed these high speed films to the pitching coach he was told "never to show them to his pitchers." The pitching arm and shoulder do not do what you think they do. I saw that story on his web site. He takes pride in his outcast status. The problem is: what about his students' chances of getting signed and advancing through a system where the coaches don't know how to coach them? You can make the greatest car in the world, but no one will buy it unless there's a service system available. By not giving the world a chance to "look under the hood" of his system to be able to at least try to maintain it out in the real world, Marshall guarantees that few people will buy it.

It's obvious that you've considered that risk. I hope it pays off.
When you actually see what the arm and shoulder go through in the traditional pitching motion you will understand why the conventional wisdom is wrong.Define "wrong". At best, he'll be able to make an argument that kids who are willing to devote an incredible amount of money and time and put their careers on hold can perhaps become more effective pitchers. Who's willing to take that risk? My wife shrieks when I spend $120 on my son's new bat. And, I figure he'll be lucky to pitch maybe twenty games over the life of his career -- he's more of an infielder type than a pitcher. So, I'm not worried that Tom House's mechanics are going to cripple him. So, for whom is Dr. Marshall's system so "right" that it's worth the investment, in your opinion?

For what kind of team is your son going to be pitching next spring? He's not Venus Williams who can sit out tournaments at age 14 and and 15 while she grows up. He's using up the college eligibility he needs to prove himself and to pick up game sense; otherwise pro scouts will move past him. If he's got what you say he does, he should be able to make a splash. And, like it or not, if he doesn't pitch in a conventional setting then, you risk having yourself and him stigmatized as being more devoted to the Marshall system than to his baseball future.

pgibbons

12-06-2005, 08:40 PM

I will do everything I can to help you understand. Is there a way to post pics...I'm new to Internet forums?

Coach45, I'm interested in this discussion and am willing to donate space on my web-site to you, if you have pics/videos that can help illustrate your points.

If interested, you can contact me through the link to my web-site below.

Coach45

12-06-2005, 09:11 PM

Big Bear, While throwing a javelin in somewhat akin to Marshall's mechanics, there are distinct differences. It is nothing like slinging. Explaining this without video is like a bad trip to the dentist. I'm trying to figure out how to get the visuals online and will work on it... so I will wait until you can see the visuals to address some of your specifics. If I could brainwash your visual memory from everything you currently have stored about pitching the task would be easier.

You wrote (would someone please tell me how to take a partial quote from another document!): "What also struck me is that you release with your arm-side leg a lot further forward than under conventional techniques, which would seem to require a lot of getting used to."

My reply: Getting used to anything different takes getting used to. Pitchers of all shapes and sizes dislike making a mechanical change during a season and usually attempt to do so in the offseason. Releasing the ball this much closer to home plate is an obvious advantage that does not show up on the radar gun. Young kids who have nothing to 'unlearn' will not have anything new to get used to.

You wrote: "Well, maybe it's not so unnatural if Dr. M. has you throwing the way that ancient cavemen threw a spear."

My reply: "Thanks, I appreciate your keeping it light. Humor goes a long way."

You wrote: "With all due respect to Marshall, the world is full of people with scientific credentials who nonetheless draw conclusions ill-supported by their research. Before poor Terri Schiavo's autopsy, certain religious groups were hauling out experts who insisted that she was doing differential calculus while she snoozed. Dick Mills purports to rely on scientific evidence, and he's got all sorts of obvious holes in his teachings. And, I know from my own line of work (law) that you can hire an "expert" to testify as to just about anything."
Marshall may know his kinesiology, but he's got to know that he needs to do something akin to a controlled study before anyone can take his claims of safety seriously. Anything short of that is -- I'm sorry to tell you -- still anecdotal.

My reply: I have a scientific background and Marshall's scientific methodology is superb. Regarding a control group, you need equals. Do you really think that MLB will agree to this. The result would be horrendous lawsuits when they proved that they actually hurt guys. In an ideal world complete scientific methodology is exactly what is needed. No one in the world can accomplish it given current affairs. That aside, please point out what you think are specific holes in Dr. Marshall's advocacy. I will gladly address them one at a time.

You wrote: "People are left to pulling out Mark Prior or Kerry Wood stories -- and I disagree that Prior has a perfect motion; he indeed is a disaster waiting to happen."

My reply: Please tell me specifically, scientifically, why you think that Mark Prior is a disaster waiting to happen, as you claim. My contention is that Mark Prior, after initially cocking of the ball, accelerates the ball backward and downward violently. This is the action that ruptured his UCL. This is the action that each and every traditional pitcher throws with, some more violently than others. However, this is only one of the scenarios that injures the elbow, for there are others.

You wrote: "I don't see how a video can convince people of safety."

My reply: When you finally see what happens to the arm and shoulder during the traditional throwing motion, from high-speed imagery, you will see the exact set of physical circumstances that cause injuries like UCL tear.

You wrote: "I think at best it will get people to do what Epstein and high speed film did for hitting. But even then -- with people showing that major leaguers already were doing what Epstein wanted to teach people, you still run into resistance from people who insist on teaching techniques that are not designed to achieve the look of the swing that they're aiming for.

My reply: Your argument reveals much about the truths surrounding perception. In many ways we are victimize by what we think we see. Different people witness the same crime and differing perceptions are elicited. When someone designs a batting swing or a pitching motion based upon how they think it should 'look', the design is problematic. This is precisely how pitching has been and continues to be taught, based upon what we think we see. High-speed film reveals much more that you can't see. (I'm doing my best to put high-speed film up on the web. It may take a little while.) On video you cannot see the horrific backward and downward acceleration that the ball makes, that ultimately ruptures the UCL. On high-speed film it is not only obvious, it will make you cringe and wonder why in the world did we ever start teaching guys to throw like that. Unaided, can you see a bullet leave a gun barrel? You can with ultra-high-speed film.

You wrote: "A new hitting method can only prove itself by a hitter going out and banging the ball for two months. A new pitching method, by contrast, can prove its merit by simply having a kid go out and throw for ten minutes. If his heater lights up the gun with a ten MPH improvement over his previous year's best and his hook breaks another four inches, coaches can become instant believers."

My reply: You have got to be kidding. I wish I could think of a kind way to say this: to state that a new pitching method can prove its merits by simply working on a skill for ten minutes tells me you have never pitched and do not understand athletic training of any kind. I am not aware of a single athletic skill that requires more diligent neuromuscular training than pitching. If you think that velocity is what retires batters you are mistaken. Look at the home run numbers. Don't misunderstand me, I like high velocity pitching. When you combine superb velocity with pitches that move substantially and dramatically change speeds you have a combination that is toughest to beat. Dr. Marshall's system has the ability to provide the best of both...injury free.

I wrote earlier: Dr. Marshall has also told me of cursory, preliminary research he did for a major league team. When the general manager showed these high speed films to the pitching coach he was told "never to show them to his pitchers." The pitching arm and shoulder do not do what you think they do.

You replied: "I saw that story on his web site. He takes pride in his outcast status. The problem is: what about his students' chances of getting signed and advancing through a system where the coaches don't know how to coach them? You can make the greatest car in the world, but no one will buy it unless there's a service system available. By not giving the world a chance to "look under the hood" of his system to be able to at least try to maintain it out in the real world, Marshall guarantees that few people will buy it."

My response: I am unaware that Doc posted this story on his site. He shared it with me during a recent phone call. No doubt about it, Dr. Marshall is an independent thinker, but I assure you he does not take pride in what you and many others consider 'outcast status.' I suspect you have never spoken to the man so how can you make this judgement? There is definitive difficulty in entering a system ill-equipped to handle 'something different.' For this reason, and others, those he trains at an advanced level should not attempt to do so until they are better, much better than everyone else. This is the advice I have given my son. If he is not good enough at least he will know, and he will not spend the rest of his life with a disabled arm. Regading your last point, I again agree that when people can see the realities of what is happening, they can make informed decisions.

Earlier I wrote: "When you actually see what the arm and shoulder go through in the traditional pitching motion you will understand why the conventional wisdom is wrong."

You replied: "Define "wrong"."

My response: Wrong meaning what the arm and shoulder go through in the traditional pitch motion is what eventually causes catostrophic structural failure. I.E. wrong = biomechanically unsound.

You wrote: "At best, he'll be able to make an argument that kids who are willing to devote an incredible amount of money and time and put their careers on hold can perhaps become more effective pitchers. Who's willing to take that risk? My wife shrieks when I spend $120 on my son's new bat. And, I figure he'll be lucky to pitch maybe twenty games over the life of his career -- he's more of an infielder type than a pitcher. So, I'm not worried that Tom House's mechanics are going to cripple him. So, for whom is Dr. Marshall's system so "right" that it's worth the investment, in your opinion?"

My response: I am astonished that you are not worried that some variant of pitching mechanics are going to cripple your son. Apparently you and I see our sons differently. I will gladly, willingly lay down my life for mine. It seems you don't care if yours is crippled. If this is the case I pity you, and your son. Possibly this is not what mean at all and I have misinterpreted what you are saying. Maybe you mean you don't care about someone else's son. Please clear this up for me as I would not wish to think ill of you. Dr. Marshall's system is right for anyone who wants to pitch, and for that matter throw overhand. Investment? Doc offers advice for free. My e-mail account is jammed to the gills with his helpfulness. He has also paid for many, many phone calls so that we can talk pitching. For my son to train with him, on site, cost ten dollars per day for the first 315 days. Doc charged him another ten dollars a day for rent. Any training time beyond this, in perpetuity, is free of charge. If my son is fortunate enough to make it all the way, we have agreed to pay Dr. Marshall 5% of everything in excess of $5,000 per month. Training with a Cy Young winner who also understands what the body can and can't do without injury? Who in their right mind would make another choice?

You wrote: "For what kind of team is your son going to be pitching next spring?.... He's using up the college eligibility he needs to prove himself and to pick up game sense; otherwise pro scouts will move past him. If he's got what you say he does, he should be able to make a splash. And, like it or not, if he doesn't pitch in a conventional setting then, you risk having yourself and him stigmatized as being more devoted to the Marshall system than to his baseball future."

My reply: I understand your point explicitly. This next spring he will be continuing his training under Dr. Marshall's direct supervision. Learning these skills is a highly complex, demanding task, contrary to what you seemed to express above. Regardless, he will have two years of college eligiblity remaining at the end of next spring. By continuing to train through this spring he will be in the best position to take advantage of upcoming opportunities. This fall, after much debate and more than a few tears shed, he made the decision to leave a full ride scholarship behind because he was not yet fully prepared. This college coach will take him back in a heartbeat when he is ready. Does all this defy conventional wisdom? You bet. I have tried to tell you that this is much more about faith than about baseball. And so the last point becomes, if your arm is useless because of baseball, was there ever a future in baseball? The 'field of dreams' is more like the 'field of nightmares.' Do I have all the answers? Am I positive I have all the right ones? No, and I am doing what I think best in the overall interest of my son.

Yo, hiddengem, if you're out there, tell 'em about being humbled.

hiddengem

12-06-2005, 11:04 PM

If my son is fortunate enough to make it all the way, we have agreed to pay Dr. Marshall 5% of everything in excess of $5,000 per month.

What do you mean all the way? To the Big Leagues or just to put on a professional Uniform?

Your son might not ever play a day in the Minor Leagues or Big Leagues. If he is fortunate enough to play in pro ball period he is going to need every penny he can get. Trust me..pro teams pay squat until you either get called up, spend 2 years on the 40 man roster or get called up.

So let me get this straight..you have paid him 20 dollars a day(10 for rent, 10 for instruction) for 316 days for a total of $6,300. On top of that your are going to give him %5 of everything obove 5k/mth in proball for his entire career? I've never seen a legit agent take a penny of a kids minor league salary. Most agents don't take anything until a player is making above the major league minium of 316k/yr.

If I've got this straight, I think you need to think twice about what you are doing.

jbooth

12-06-2005, 11:23 PM

My response: I am astonished that you are not worried that some variant of pitching mechanics are going to cripple your son. Apparently you and I see our sons differently. I will gladly, willingly lay down my life for mine. It seems you don't care if yours is crippled. If this is the case I pity you, and your son. Possibly this is not what mean at all and I have misinterpreted what you are saying. Maybe you mean you don't care about someone else's son. Please clear this up for me as I would not wish to think ill of you.

If I was Ursa Major, I'd come over to where you live and punch you straight in the mouth many times. What a terrible thing to say. Accusing him of not caring about his son, yet you essentially laid your son out in front of Mike Marshall like a Guinea Pig in an experiment and said, "Go ahead doc, let's see what comes of your work."

hiddengem

12-06-2005, 11:39 PM

yet you essentially laid your son out in front of Mike Marshall like a Guinea Pig in an experiment and said, "Go ahead doc, let's see what comes of your work."

I have to admit this comment has crossed my mind the more and more I learn about this situation.

Ursa Major

12-07-2005, 03:01 AM

Coach, thanks for the lengthy response to my questions. I have read in depth a great deal of what Marshall writes on his web site -- and you are certainly right that he is willing to give away a lot of advice for free -- and I appreciate the opportunity to explore what Marshall is teaching. I think it's terrific that he's poking at conventional baseball wisdom and has people like you trying to explain what he does. But you should understand that we're entitled to kick the tires a bit.

And, no, I won't come and punch you in the face as JBooth suggests; he's met me and my son and his confirmation that I am a loving and caring dad is all the affirmation I need. But I will address that comment right up front. I have listened to everything you've written with an open mind and have accorded you all the respect that the father and coach of an apparently successful young pitcher is entitled to. But, for making the sort of comment that you did, you owe me the respect of listening to the most important thing you'll hear in this thread.

To recap, it came down this way:

I said:

"I figure [my son will] be lucky to pitch maybe twenty games over the life of his career -- he's more of an infielder type than a pitcher. So, I'm not worried that Tom House's mechanics are going to cripple him."

You replied:

"I am astonished that you are not worried that some variant of pitching mechanics are going to cripple your son. Apparently you and I see our sons differently. I will gladly, willingly lay down my life for mine. It seems you don't care if yours is crippled. If this is the case I pity you, and your son. Possibly this is not what mean at all and I have misinterpreted what you are saying. Maybe you mean you don't care about someone else's son. Please clear this up for me as I would not wish to think ill of you."

Now, Coach, you come onto this site with the apparent purpose of setting the world straight about Marshall's system. And then you blow whatever possible credibility you have by making the same sort of asinine, jihadist statement that Marshall constantly does. It's not good enough for you guys to say, "Gee, my analyses say that your kid, if he pitches 2000 innings over the course of his career, has a 37% percent chance of a disabling arm injury under the conventional approach, but only a 5% chance under our approach." No, it's got to be, "If you don't follow our approach, you don't love your son and wish him misery for the rest of his days." Come ON, Coach! That's the kind of crap Jim Jones handed out as he was hauling kids off to Jonestown before mixing up the Kool Aid.

You don't have the numbers to back up that statement. And, even if you did, what kind of ambassador for the system antagonizes the audience that way? And look at my d@mn post: I said he wasn't likely to pitch very much anyway (he's got a strong enough arm for the other positions, but isn't really suited long term to be other than a reliable spot pitcher). And even if he was a serious pitcher, you don't think his mother and I would have the sense to shut him down and take him to a doctor if he developed arm problems before anything serious occurred? And even as to pitchers who do develop arm injuries that cut short their careers and plague them now; how many would say that their entire baseball careers were rendered worthless to them? And hey, I've got a bum elbow (largely from carrying an oversized, 25-lb. laptop back when that's what they weighed) and a type-3 shoulder separation (from a skiing injury) and I can't throw for sh^t now, but I wouldn't regret the risks that brought those injuries on. So, Marshall's system isn't for my son (hell, he's only 11 and Marshall wouldn't take him) and I don't think I'm risking anything but letting him continue to try pitching while being careful.

Do I care about other people's sons and daughters? (Here's to Iola Borders and those who come after her...) Yes, and if Marshall has the key to their safety, then you and he have a lot more control about bringing his system to respectability and mainstream acceptance than I do. He knows what he has to do to achieve that acceptance if his system is superior. He prefers to call MLB scouts "jackasses" (see the story below). Fine. Let the system's almost non-existent penetration into the mainstream fall on his head, not mine.

You said: I have a scientific background and Marshall's scientific methodology is superb. Regarding a control group, you need equals. Do you really think that MLB will agree to this. The result would be horrendous lawsuits when they proved that they actually hurt guys.Yes, many charlatans and snake oil salesmen have scientific backgrounds too. Linus Pauling had a frickin' Nobel Prize in his pocket when he went off on his misguided Vitamin C jag. My point is that any Ph.D worth his salt knows that you have got to make an effort to have someone assess the performance or arm health of Marshall alumni vs. comparable pitchers who didn't go through the program. You don't need MLB's approval to simply look at statistics or ask around about arm health. That's the sort of paranoid excuse that frauds have used for years. Please understand: I am not accusing you or Marshall of being frauds or even of being wrong. But studies have been conducted of all sorts of medical treatments facing much tougher ethical issues (i.e., do you deprive the control group of possible life saving medicines?) in order to establish some kind of answers. Marshall has not to my knowledge tried to seriously assist such a study. The consequence of failing to do so is not just a missed opportunity at personal glory, but a perpetuation of the prejudice of against his system and its graduates. Thus, he does his own students a disservice. I gotta problem with that.
Please tell me specifically, scientifically, why you think that Mark Prior is a disaster waiting to happen, as you claim.Since we agree with each other, I'm not going to get into the "I see more than you" battle that Nyman's site specializes in. My point is simply that Marshall is not the only one to worry about his mechanics.
Your argument reveals much about the truths surrounding perception. In many ways we are victimize by what we think we see.I realize my point was obscured by my fancy talk. My point is simply that great hitters have been using rotational mechanics for years, but coaches still teach something different from what actually occurs in the best hitters. Marshall has an extra burden because what he teaches actually is completely different from what has succeeded over the years.

You take this further and say that people don't see the damage done to arms by the violent motions by which they throw but with high speed film will somehow see the light. Uh, no. Thousands of people make fine livings for many years with those motions and can still pick up their grandkids twenty years after retirement. So, a clear look at a conventional motion may look ugly in one sense, but no one's going to give up baseball for that reason, and certainly won't say, "Dang, Marge, load up the Winnebago and head down to Dr. Marshall's camp with young Lefty." People see war movies and still head off to war; they watch "Desperate Housewives" and still get married. People will stay with the known quantity and, even if you're right, will assume that the bullet of arm miseries will miss them. That's the reality Dr. Marshall faces.
I wrote: "A new hitting method can only prove itself by a hitter going out and banging the ball for two months. A new pitching method, by contrast, can prove its merit by simply having a kid go out and throw for ten minutes. If his heater lights up the gun with a ten MPH improvement over his previous year's best and his hook breaks another four inches, coaches can become instant believers."Coach, you replied: You have got to be kidding. I wish I could think of a kind way to say this: to state that a new pitching method can prove its merits by simply working on a skill for ten minutes tells me you have never pitched and do not understand athletic training of any kind.Coach, please re-read my comment. I didn't say one could learn a new technique in ten minutes; I said that a good scout or pitching expert (like your buddy the Goose -- gahd, I miss seeing him) could detect by watching for ten minutes armed with a radar gun and knowing a kid's prior history that a new pitching technique had worked for him. Hitters by contrast have to prove the effectiveness of their changes over a longer period of time. This in one sense would seem to work to Marshall's advantage. On the other hand, it also raises expectations; you'd think college coaches would hightail it over to Marshall's camp when it closes shop and snap up all the hot prospects with the 34 inch breaks on their fastballs and triple digit numbers on the radar gun. If kids with those numbers aren't on display after all his personal attention, it's easy for the scouts to write off his system.
Dr. Marshall is an independent thinker, but I assure you he does not take pride in what you and many others consider 'outcast status.' I suspect you have never spoken to the man so how can you make this judgement? This is my perception -- based on reading a zillion of his website posts -- from his lack of diplomacy in dealing with pro baseball. It's been awhile since I read his site, so I just glanced through it for examples. I quickly found this tale, in which he recites:

"Mount Everest is a mole hill compared to the wall of ignorance in professional baseball. Yesterday, at a professional baseball team tryout, after one pitch, a pitching coach stopped my most talented, major-league-experienced pitcher and spent five minutes telling him how he had to change his pitching motion. Then, when he refused, he ignored him and did not choose him to stay and pitch against hitters. Unfortunately, I was meeting with someone elsewhere at that time or I would have verbally taken that jackass apart."

Marshall may be right, but is this attitude going to help his kids get a real shot at a major league tryout? Anyway, you know him personally, so I'll accept your assessment of him. The real issue is this: how is he helping to get his kids' unorthodox style accepted by MLB? (As far as where I heard the story about the MLB executive trying to keep Marshall's ideas away from his pitchers; I'll be honest, it may not be the exact same story I read on the site but it was very close to it. The point is: he knows he's viewed in some baseball circles the same way network administrators view propogators of computer viruses.)
Coach wrote: There is definitive difficulty in entering a system ill-equipped to handle 'something different.' For this reason, and others, those he trains at an advanced level should not attempt to do so until they are better, much better than everyone else. This is the advice I have given my son. If he is not good enough at least he will know, and he will not spend the rest of his life with a disabled arm. I'll agree whole-heartedly with the first sentence, but not the rest of the paragraph. Let's say I've got a kid who's a very, very good pitcher. MLB quality? Who knows? Now, you're telling me that to make it with Marshall's system, he has to back away from the baseball establishment with its networks and grapevines, and the only way he can get back in is by being "much better" than the comparable kid who stayed on the Division 1 track. Maybe you with your experience in baseball and physiology can make such a choice, but who else would take that kind of gamble?
Coach concluded: I have tried to tell you that this is much more about faith than about baseball. And so the last point becomes, if your arm is useless because of baseball, was there ever a future in baseball? The 'field of dreams' is more like the 'field of nightmares.' Do I have all the answers? Am I positive I have all the right ones? No, and I am doing what I think best in the overall interest of my son.This is a very telling quote in many ways. You say "I am doing what I think best in the overall interest of my son" and "this is much more about faith than about baseball". Whose faith? He's a 20-year old kid who can vote and carry a gun and sign his own contracts. Somehow I'm reminded of all the protest marches I saw when I worked many years ago on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, D.C., where you'd see kids barely old enough to walk holding up signs with extremist slogans (both left wing and right wing), and it always riled me that parents would use their kids to push a cause the kids were much too young to understand, much less make a decision on.

It should be your son's decision. And if you realize that it is an issue of faith, you owe it to him to step back and say to him and yourself, "Son, I'm a big believer in this Marshall system and I appreciate your respecting my judgment. But I've got a lot emotionally invested in that system too, so my judgment may be a bit clouded. So, the best thing for you to do is to go get some independent advice from some people in baseball you respect. Go ahead and ask 'em the tough questions that you've learned from me and Dr. Marshall. But still, you've got to make the call on your own." Sure, we'll all leap in front of a train in a heartbeat to save our kids at the expense of our own lives. You, me, JBooth, and HG. But sometimes it's tougher yet to say, "Son, I may be wrong on this decision, so I want you to make your own call, and if you disagree with me, I'll back you 100 %."

I trust and hope you've done that with your son. And if you can truly say you have, well... JBooth can hold both our coats while we punch each other's lights out. Though, with my bum shoulder, you're not much at risk.

Anyway, keep up the good fight, Coach. Understand in everything I said, I truly hope that Marshall has the holy grail of pitching, and in thirty years the country will be dotted with Mike Marshall pitching centers and orthopedists will turn to dermatology . . . and we'll view the old way of pitching with the same horror that we know accord to bareknuckle boxing. But you're going to have to prove it the hard way.

Coach45

12-07-2005, 02:47 PM

Big Bear, Thanks for the great debate and perspective. That you have taken the subject seriously and have not dismissed it offhand has already earned my respect for you. First off I owe you an apology for the way I handled comments regarding your son. I know better and I am ashamed. Please forigive me. You are fortunate to have JB as a friend and I would also prefer to claim him as mine. My tendency is to be more like him than otherwise ...mabe I should punch myself in the mouth. With my torn up throwing shoulder the fight won't last long. I know that Dr. Marshall can be very antagonistic and I promised myself I would not fall into that trap. I failed. I'm sorry for it and I humbly apoligize. You are correct in your assessment that this attitude is destructive and will not help matters. In Doc's defense, I believe that people who fight on the front lines are the ones who get shot at most often. In the war of ideas it seems that most of the shots are fired from those sitting the bench. This ultimately is what antagonizes men like Dr. Marshall. People want him to prove his theories; I suggest that someone set out to prove him wrong. In reality that is what we personally have embarked on.

The decision to train with Dr. Marshall was fully my sons, though he heeded my advice. He went into this with eyes wide open and with parents who support him. Will I feel somehow responsible if he is injured or if this fails? How could I not do so? My children have heard me apoligize to them, and to their Mother, many times. I freely admit my mistakes. Somewhere it has been said that if a man claims he has made no mistakes, then he is either a liar or has never accomplished anything.

The only other person I know who is likely to follow this course of action, on my recommendation, is the high schooler I am currently training. His parents and I have held long discussions about this. Everything is wide open for them to see in the light of day. Do I have pull with this young man? You bet. I coach him for free, almost an hour and a half per day, seven days per week. He is experiencing the truth of what is happening (or not happening) to his body, and has already become a much better pitcher than he ever could have become. Because of this he trusts me. If you would like to speak with him I can probably arrange it.

You said it well...'I truly hope that Marshall has the holy grail of pitching.' So do I. This process has been agonizing on many fronts and if you care to hear the story in person let me know how to contact you. In one sense my son is indeed laid out as a sacrificial lamb. We don't know if he is, or ever was, big league material. No one does. If Marshall is correct and someone, anyone, who is genetically gifted enough to throw in the big leagues can master what he teaches, and has the fortitude to complete the training that Doc advocates, this individual stands to be the best pitcher of all time. Throwing the vast array of pitches in this arsenal, with the ability to do it day after day after day, injury free, sounds like it's too good to be true. I want you to kick the tires, and in a sense my son (and the young man I am training, and others like him) are doing if for you. If you believe me.

At some point we decide who we are going to believe about everything in life. Hence my comments about faith. We place our faith in who or what what we choose to believe. Our increasingly relativistic society says there is no such thing as truth. So, is it then true that there is no such thing as absolute truth? If so, we are saying that it is absolutely true that there is no such thing as absolute truth. You get my drift.

You addressed my agenda. It's not really about Marshall. Ultimately it's about what I love about baseball and why I coach: baseball provides incredible opportunities to teach lessons about life, while the cost of lessons is cheap. We learn about failure, we learn about working with teammates, we learn about frustration and how to deal with authority, outfielders even learn to deal with loneliness...the list goes on ad infinitum. My deeper agenda is that I see people in positions of trust and authority, coaches, who are teaching kids something that is doing permanent, irreparable harm. The numbers are horrific; what proof do you want? If you want me to list chapter and verse from the medical journals, biomechanical journals, etc., I have a filing cabinet full of them. You can, and should, prove it to yourself, unless you are willing to continue accepting that 'the way we have always done it' is fine and dandy. Online, I suggest you type 'biomechanics pitching injuries elbow shoulder' into your search engine and see what turns up. Go look for yourself. I argue that the responsibility is yours, not some other guys, but I am certainly willing to help. If anyone chooses not to examine this personally it is fair to say they are making a leap of faith. I am not and have not placed my son's baseball future in Dr. Marshall's hands with blinders on. We also do not know how all of this will turn out. Life is not fair nor is it equitable.

So, do you believe me. To date my son, using Marshall's system, has thrown each and every day since June 13, 2004. I think he missed one day of training because of illness. Depending on the training regemin for the particular drill set he has thown some combination of heavy wrist weights, heavy iron balls, footballs (used to teach spin axes) and baseballs that meets or exceeds 144 repitions per day. (Right now it's acutally closer to 200 reps per day than 180...I forgot to include one activity in my earlier calculations.) At this point in his training he can, and does, throw more if he wants. This summer I saw him throw in a game and then throw another 75 pitches off the mound in the back yard later in the day. The limiting factor is fatigue. With lighter weights and iron balls my high schooler does basically the same thing, though with somewhat fewer reps. In all this time the most severe discomfort came for my son when he upped his intensity when first pitching competitively. That soreness was in the anterior deltiod, as opposed to structural, connective tissue and through this soreness he continued to train every single day. That he can throw a much broader array of pitches, all with greater movement, with higher release velocities than he ever had before (I think the scouting bureau has velos on file, so we have an independent source), and can work on improving it every single day, is all the proof I personally need. I wish you could experience what I have seen. Like I have said before this is unlike anything any of us are accustomed to.

I too would like to see scientific proof positive that Doc's guys can make it through the long-haul injury free as he claims. Time will tell. The sample size is incredibly small, three that I know of, but some results are there. Conclusive? No. Most everyone Doc has trained has quit before they become highly proficient...this task is incredibly demanding physically (and mentally). And so how do you include guys in a study that cannot or do not perform correctly? The variables are huge. Being different is extremely rugged. It's easier to conform, even when it's wrong. Peer pressure is proof enough. The sample size among guys who throw with traditonal mechanics is huge and the outlook for remaining injury free is less than bleak. If the numbers I have are correct, almost 95% of major league pitchers have reconstructive surgery. The actual numbers are difficult to ascertain because MLB will not release them publicly...issues of medical privacy. If you know differently I would love to see them. But all we have to do is look at the disabled list to find enough info to make the point. And voices raised in the medical journals specifically say, verbatim, that the problem has reached epidemic proportions.

Not to flog a dead horse but please tell me, specifically, what biomechanical flaw do you suspect caused Mark Prior and others to blow out their UCL? (I'm trying to get you to admit that you do not know. There is no shame in admitting that you don't know something.) Point is, the baseball community as a whole, medical included, has not yet answered the question. Certainly not in a way that has fixed the problem. Why? Don't we really want to know? I suspect that's really the answer, and as long as it isn't us we pass it off as OK. Our thinking is flawed. How many times does the space shuttle have to disintegrate over Texas before we do something about it? That event shut down NASA. The human cost of baseball pitching injuries is staggering. These injuries are not one time deals. Earlier, someone labeled this line of thinking as histrionics. No, it's the voice of reason. What resources can I provide that you will accept as proof? After spending vast amounts of time studying everything I can find, my conclusion is that Marshall has proven to me (more like helped me prove to myself), that beyond a reasonable doubt he is correct.

I know you would shut your son down from pitching and throwing if you thought he stood in harms way. So would any other rational parent. That said, then why are kids still getting hurt? We pass it off as 'throwing overhand is an unnatural act.' That line of thinking is pathetic, yet we have heard it so many times we pass it off as acceptable, simply because no one else has provided the proof. The most rational (and scientific) explanations are because the mechanics themselves are to blame. What do you need in order to have proof? Seriously. You have an open invitation to see my son throw. Please tell me what will convince you. I will dig it out. Ultimately I understand that this is what needs to happen, but in the interim you still have a choice to make about who you believe. Can you look at the DL and tell me that the current system looks good? And these are the mechanics we hold up to kids and say 'this is how you gotta do it if you want to succeed.' Not on my watch.

Coach45

12-07-2005, 05:14 PM

Big Bear, I went looking for specific proof you might want to consider, in light of your statement that..."So, Marshall's system isn't for my son (hell, he's only 11 and Marshall wouldn't take him) and I don't think I'm risking anything but letting him continue to try pitching while being careful."

"In the 1965 California Medicine Journal, Orthopedic Surgeon Joel E. Adams, surveyed the bi-lateral elbow X-rays of one hundred and sixty-two 9-14 year old San Bernadino, CA males of whom 80 pitched, 47 played other positions and 35 did not play baseball. No subject suffered from elbow fractures, severe elbow infections or genetically deformed elbows.

Dr. Adams determined that physicians must compare non-pitching elbows with pitching elbows. Otherwise, physicians frequently incorrectly conclude that X-rays appear normal when accelerated maturation had prematurely closed pitching arm growth plates.

Dr. Adams found that 95% of the eighty 9-14 year old pitchers had premature medial epicondyle growth plate closure and humeral growth plate separation, 15% suffered medial epicondyle fragmentation and 8.6% suffered osteochondritis (cartilage inflammation) on their capitular and radial head’s articular surfaces. 48.8% of the forty-seven 9-14 year old non-pitchers also suffered from premature medial epicondyle growth plate closure and humeral growth plate separation, 12.8% had medial epicondyle fragmentation and 5.7% suffered osteochondritis on their capitular and redial head's articular surfaces. Lastly, 7.5% of the thirty-five 9-14 year old non-baseball players had premature medial epicondyle growth plate closure and humeral growth plate diaphysial separation.
"

......excerpted from Chapter Nine of Dr. Marshall's free, online book. (Note: I am procuring a hard copy of the study.

Do you understand the ramifications of premature growth plate closure, medial eipcondyle separation, etc? When you compare the disparities between baseball players and non-players do you reach any conclusions?

Have you ever been on or near the diamond when a young pitcher fractures or separates the inner side of the elbow (medial epicondyle)? Have you ever been on or near the diamond when a youth pitcher blows out his UCL, an injury not even covered here? Unfortunately, I have been there on both accounts and the result isn't pretty. Parents pack them up and head for the emergency room. Depending on the severity of the injury and whether of not they want to continue playing ball, the surgical fees are substantial, (do you want me to provide costs?) the rehab is gruelling, not to mention that in the interim Johnny can't use his arm and it will never, ever be the same. As a baseball pitcher he just lost the skeletal and/or structural ability to reach his full adult potential. Before Dr. Jobe did the original Tommy John surgery these pitchers careers were finished. We're not simply dealing with the cost of arms, we're dealing with the cost of unneeded pain and suffering, and very possibly, dreams.

Do you wish to alter your statement that you think you are not risking anything? Given the numbers above, here is proof you are in fact taking a calculated risk. You do not need Dr. Marshall to teach him for he has provided a way for you to teach your son. The two of you (or more) would have a grand time. I would also be happy to help you learn.

Ursa Major

12-07-2005, 08:00 PM

Coach, first, apology accepted. You started with appropriate intentions and went overboard. Ultimately, it was just words and you don't know me, so it wouldn't be a matter of me being personall offended. I'll just stand in as a surrogate for the zillions of other dads who teach their kids conventional techniques. In turn, I took your over the top comments as an opportunity to be commensurately over the top in my snideness, which didn't contribute much to the dialogue.

My final thought on the issue of your son's consent to the risks of jumping on the Marshall bandwagon is that I think that it may not be enough for a Dad to say "It's your decision." Because of your influence on him and your zeal for the program, I think you have to go beyond that and both encourage him to get independent advice and assure him you'll back his decision either way (and stick with that promise). But, that's my parenting opinion, and lord knows I get enough disagreement on those skills simply within the confines of my own bedroom to expect a stranger to adopt them.

Further thoughts:At some point we decide who we are going to believe about everything in life. Hence my comments about faith. We place our faith in who or what what we choose to believe.I agree, and the starting point is understanding what the motivations are of the people you rely on. Anyone who achieves anything in life will be criticized by people who either don't know what's going on, don't know what they're saying, or have their own agenda for being critical. You should give little regard for their thoughts. In turn, though, you have to have a stable of friends whose opinions you respect and will give as much weight to as your own. Now, Dr. Marshall has an agenda; it may stem from the most altruistic of motives, but it remains an agenda. So, you have to have faith in those who will ask the tough questions of his program. Unfortunately, most people in baseball have their own agendas and it rarely will benefit by acknowledging Dr. Marshall's skills. That's the nature of life. So, you're hardpressed to know who you can rely on to advise you. Just don't forget to kick the tires yourself as you go along, to make sure Marshall is fully serving your son's interest, whether physically or emotionally.

This get's to an additional issue highlighted by this statement:
I too would like to see scientific proof positive that Doc's guys can make it through the long-haul injury free as he claims. Time will tell. The sample size is incredibly small, three that I know of, but some results are there. Conclusive? No. Most everyone Doc has trained has quit before they become highly proficient...this task is incredibly demanding physically (and mentally).Why don't they make it through? With Doc's small camp size, he ought to be able to recruit the most motivated kids from among those with the potential to excel. Why would they quit with the prospect of baseball excellence (not to mention fame and fortune) just over the horizon? of Is it just his personality that is so demanding? The killer pace? The isolation? Or the seeming lack of improvement in results? Even if the mechanical theory is correct, but kids just can't be counted on to complete the program, it fails just as much as if his theories were dead wrong.
If the numbers I have are correct, almost 95% of major league pitchers have reconstructive surgery. The actual numbers are difficult to ascertain because MLB will not release them publicly...issues of medical privacy.This starts to sound a little like the old Marshall paranoia. There's no privacy issue about cumulative figures about surgery issues. Has anyone reputable tried to do a study? It would seem to be important to the players, but the way the Players' Association has dealt with the steroids issue, it doesn't seem that it has players' health in mind.

Anyway, my concern is the issue of kids' health, as my son won't be going that far in baseball. I appreciate the San Bernardino study, although I worry about something that is 40 years out of date. Interestingly, it took place at a time and place (a dry-weather area of California) near where I grew up, and I surmise that a lot of those kids, like me, played baseball for hours every day. My son, by contrast, plays ball only during spring and summer, doesn't go off to the local school yard with his friends, and doesn't play for hours at a time like we did then. He just wants to be able to make his spot appearances and contribute to the team's welfare for what is likely to be the remaining three years of his organized baseball career (unless he becomes 6'2" all of a sudden...). And, as far as I know, none of us who played so much then came down with anything more than the occasional sore elbow. And, none of us played competitively beyond age 15 either. I think if kids of that era had suffered from longterm effects, we'd know about it because they're all my peers.

But, your issue is that who's really at risk are kids who might have a long term future. And, you offer: "You have an open invitation to see my son throw. Please tell me what will convince you. I will dig it out." Well, Coach, convincing me, who at most is responsible for a small part of the futures of twelve 11-to-12 year olds (only one or two of whom has any expectation of playing into high school ball), would be a waste of your time in view of the hard work you've put in. It's the high school and college level coaches who need to be persuaded. You ask, "What resources can I provide that you will accept as proof?" Ask them; I suspect that it's a neverending supply of kids with those heaters and huge curve balls. That's all.

Face it. You and marshall have to bring the proof to the troglodytes that is the baseball establishment and rub their faces in it. Get a traveling squad to go to tournaments and pitch no-hitter after no-hitter. That's the history of baseball ... of all sports. Logic and common sense alone? Are you kidding? ;)

Do you wish to alter your statement that you think you are not risking anything? Given the numbers above you are in fact taking a calculated risk. You do not need Dr. Marshall to teach him for he has provided a way for you to teach your son. The two of you (or more) would have a grand time. Given the fact that your son throws every day and still feels he needs to remain in the Marshall Monastery in Zephyrsville, I have to wonder what I can expect him to accomplish from a $100 video and an occasional trip to the local pitching mound. I'm still trying to sell him on the benefits of rotational hitting. I'm not willing to sacrifice whatever capital I have left in the Dad-as-teacher-bank to try to get him to alter his pitching motion for his occasional appearances.

BTW, on the Prior issue, I can't tell you off the top of my head what I thought to put him at risk. Frankly, I believe my belief came from some exchanges on the Nyman site with which I agreed from viewing Prior's motion. Again, it's irrelevant why I believed he was at risk; the point remains that Marshall was not alone in making his prediction. And, again, if 95% of MLB pitchers have to undergo reconstructive surgery, predicting that any pitcher is likely to undergo arm miseries is hardly a huge leap, is it?

Coach45

12-08-2005, 09:25 AM

Quote From Coach:
Do you wish to alter your statement that you think you are not risking anything? Given the numbers above you are in fact taking a calculated risk. You do not need Dr. Marshall to teach him for he has provided a way for you to teach your son. The two of you (or more) would have a grand time.

Ursa's Reply:
Given the fact that your son throws every day and still feels he needs to remain in the Marshall Monastery in Zephyrsville, I have to wonder what I can expect him to accomplish from a $100 video and an occasional trip to the local pitching mound. I'm still trying to sell him on the benefits of rotational hitting. I'm not willing to sacrifice whatever capital I have left in the Dad-as-teacher-bank to try to get him to alter his pitching motion for his occasional appearances.

Coach's reply:
Big Bear, You continue to miss the point. You ask for proof, I supply it (more below) and then you say the proof doesn't matter. This is precisely the attitude that continues to put kids at risk. As a coach (you say you are responsible for 12 kids, 11-12 years old) you have a responsiblity to know what you are talking about because you are responsible for their safety. When you teach them something that (even unknowingly) puts them at risk you should be held accountable. I'm quite certain you would get kids off the diamond in a lightning storm.

Your response to me seems defensive. My son in not in 'Marshall's Z-Hills Monastery.' Aside from working full time to support himself he is throwing every single day because he might possibly have a baseball future...he was drafted by a MLB franchise. We are going to find out how good he can be using Marshall's mechanics. I don't know how good this can be, and only time is going to show us. Already he is throwing much higher quality pitches with higher velocity than when he was drafted. Having to unlearn what he already did at a high level is much, much tougher than learning it when you are a kid. If he had learned Marshall's techniques earlier this process would be shorter. Who do you think taught him the mechanics that helped get him drafted? You should realize that I am admitting that what I thought I knew was wrong. I am tremendously fortunate that I did not destroy his arm; he has never been hurt. He was a serious injury waiting to happen. (Hint: start with your boy now.) I have never used up my capital with my children, and one of my sons is 26 and married. They trust me because they know I will always stand up for what is right and true, even in the face of considerable adversity. Do I make mistakes? Absolutely, and they know I acknowlege them and make good in return. They continue to solicit my advice and this is one of the greatest blessings of my life.

With Doc's upcoming video in hand you can teach your son to throw in a way that won't tear up his arm. You can teach him better pitches. In the process he will improve his throwing skills far beyond what you think he can accomplish. You and he can work on it every day. What a wonderful opportunity to spend time with your boy, helping him learn something he loves to do. I have taught the high schooler I am training with far less sufficient info than the new video will show. He is excelling far beyond what he could have accomplished with traditional mechanics. I reiterate my offer to help you learn. Just like Dr. Marshall has provided help (free) for me. Quite possibly, of the kids you are working with, more than one or two would have the chance to play high school ball. If you are really interested in coaching help give 'em a shot.

Since you think a 1965 study is out of date I have supplied the following study from 2004 (American Journal of Sports Medicine). The full text cites Dr. Adams 1960's research. With this link you can view the abstract for free (you will need to pay to see the full text, but the abstract recaps it fine):

http://ajsm.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/1/79

Here are the results from this study of 343 Little Leaguers:
The American Journal of Sports Medicine 32:79-84 (2004)
© 2004 American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine
A Clinical and Roentgenographic Study of Little League Elbow

Results: Clinically, 58% of the pitchers presented with soreness compared to 63% in catchers and 47% in fielders. Radiographic examination revealed hypertrophy of the medial humeral epicondyle in all pitchers and catchers and 90% of the fielders. Separation of the medial epicondyle was found in 63% of pitchers, 70% of catchers, and 50% of fielders, while fragmentation was found in 19% of pitchers, 40% of catchers, and 15% of fielders. In subjects with separation or fragmentation, 49% and 56% complained of elbow soreness, respectively.

Please note that only 50% of the kids in this study who had these injuries even complained of the pain. The injuries that this study describes are permanent and deforming in nature. They minimize adult potential. Skeletal deformations like these are used, archaeologically, to determine if bones belonged to the 'upper class' or to slaves. There are many more specific types of injuries to the throwing arm than the ones this study cites. Again, what proof do you want to see. I will dig it out.

If you need help with terminology and what some of this means I will gladly help. You will note that catchers have even higher rates of injury. I have pictures of Mark Prior that clearly show how his pitching mechanic resembles the throwing mechanic of catchers. This is the mechanism that blew out his UCL. On high-speed film this becomes crystal clear because you can see the throwing hand bounce downward and backward, using the UCL like a giant rubberband. You missed the point again. There are a spectrum of throwing injuries. Doc pointed out the specific injury that Prior would suffer, before it happened.

Again, I ask you if you would like to reconsider your position? I am not trying to badger you into anything. Look at the evidence and think for yourself. By the way, in general, Dr. Marshall does not get the finest students. With the promise of big bucks from MLB why would they take a chance on something different?

Once last item. You are correct that no one reputable has ever done a comprehensive compilation of MLB pitching injuries that has ever been released to the public or, as far as I know, to the players union. You are mistaken that this is an easy task. I've tried. The closest I can come is a database that I believe Will Carroll has (baseballprospectus.com). On the phone he told me that he would not share it for privacy reasons (player privacy, that is). You made something close to an accusation here, my friend. Please back it up yourself. Have you even looked at the MLB disabled list? I've done my homework. Are you really asking me to do yours too? That said, having done the homework I can find things a lot quicker than you can, saving you a lot of time. What evidence do you want?

Ursa Major

12-08-2005, 07:51 PM

Your response to me seems defensive. My son is not in 'Marshall's Z-Hills Monastery.'Well, Coach, I tried to keep that humorous vein you love so much, and you took me seriously. I was simply saying that your son is really devoting himself to his craft and still has a long way to go; I was wondering how close my son could come to success from engaging in far less intense training.

Forgive me for being mercenary, here, but let me present the whole debate going on in my head in a cost/benefit scenario. Since my son is not going to Zephyrsville, the question is whether or not I should spend the $100 and take the time to change the pitching motion of my son and/or the other kids who might be pitching.

Costs vis a vis training my son:

(a) $100,

(b) probably about $1,000 taken away from my profession in trying to learn this stuff by viewing the video on my own (I won't count the time I take teaching him - as you say that's golden time),

(c) an incredible amount of aggravation from my kid, who doesn't like having to re-learn things he thinks he knows (the golden time of playing baseball with him is far better when we're playing catch while joking and taking it easy and whatever he's learning is coming from what he detects works for his body, rather than having me lecture him),

(d) likely deleterious impact on his hitting, because the time we can devote to pitching will come out of that,

(e) possible impact upon the more important part of his game -- infielding -- because his body will be developing a second throwing motion, and

(f) possible impact upon my marriage, when I try to explain to my wife (who already thinks I'm somehow trying to relive my childhood baseball glories through my son) that the tension with my son comes from trying to teach him a new pitching method, when there's no assurance he'll be pitching all that much.

Costs vis a vis training the other kids: Not applicable: because it isn't going to happen. Why? The serious pitching candidates on the team almost all have private pitching coaches they've used, along with Dads knowledgeable enough to think they know what a good pitching motion should be. Do I have the authority or credibility with their parents to override the coaching they've received in favor of a system I've never tried on the basis of a study of injuries to kids in Taiwan? No. Do I have time in any case to teach these kids a new system? Probably not; we'll start practicing about February 10th, and the season starts about March 3rd. And, this will be my son's last year at this level, so I won't be able to work with them longer. My credibility with the parents will be stretched as it is in trying to convert the kids to rotational hitting mechanics.

So, let's get to the benefits of teaching my son.

Safety? As I said, he will probably pitch maybe twenty innings this year. I doubt if he'll pitch at the next level up; if he does, it probably won't be more than 30 - 40 innings. He unfortunately is at the very young end of his league's age bracket and is slow to develop, so he will always lose innings to kids who are further along in their physical development. He likes the glamour and responsibility of pitching, but doesn't have the desire to get out and pitch regularly. Conversely, in light of the complexity of Dr. Marshall's system, it would seem to take him at least 80 innings worth of additional pitching practice -- much of it no doubt incorrectly -- to get him to the point where he can start to use the Doctor's system. At that point, he of course will start doing the actual pitching and incurs some additional risk of injury just from the act of throwing, even if just by tripping while on the way to the mound. ;) Unless you address the fact that 90 % of today's little leaguers do not throw the ball as much as I did in 1965, or Taiwanese little leaguers do today, your lectures about safety just sound shrill, particularly given that your own sons fortunately made it safely to the door of Marshall's system in apparent good health.

Better pitches?The league at this level does not let him throw any breaking pitches, so the Maxline curve ball and screwball are out, no matter how safe they may be to throw. So, the benefit will have to come from the speed of his fastball. My sense is that much of the ultimate increase in speed comes from the longer acceleration path allowed by the "reaching back" at the outset of the motion and the later release point, as well as the more efficient use of the upper body to contribute to the power of the throw. The problem is that he's skinny as a rail and has little upper body strength to contribute. I think his pretty good velocity now comes from a pretty efficient motion. So, he may pick up a few feet on his fastball for his twenty innings. Will that make for a better time for him this season? Maybe a little.

What we haven't discussed but which is crucial to this discussion is the following. Are there small, incremental changes that I can make to a conventional pitcher's motion to make him safer and perform better? As you see, it does not make sense for me to try to make my son or his teammates a full-blown Marshall-style pitcher. Look at it this way -- I cannot make my son or any of his teammates pure, skilled rotational style hitters. Nonetheless, I'm convinced that the more that I can get them to rely on the rotation of their hips and away from hitting with their arms, the more pop they'll have and the better time they'll have during the season, even if they fall short of perfection. Can I do likewise with their pitching -- give them the highlights of the system to tweak their motions to at least make them safer? If the Marshall system is all or nothing, by contrast, than the reality is that it will be nothing.

Coach, I've gone through this exercise to give you a sense of the battle you're facing by trying to proselytize the casual coach like me. I can't speak for higher level folks. But if you don't see the real obstacles you faced in trying to convince us to adopt the system, you're doomed to failure. Lure us in with small changes in techniques that will result in some tangible improvements. If the system doesn't allow for that, well, that's too bad. But someone's going to have to decide if the risk of teaching only a partial Marshall system is worth it given that otherwise kids will not get any of Marshall's teachings. That's the reality.

Remember, I'm not fighting you here. I'm really trying to help you guys get the message out so that (a) it can be truly tested for its benefits, and (b) your sons won't be considered oddballs when they enter the pitching world.

pgibbons

12-08-2005, 08:27 PM

Ursa Major and Coach45, I was disappointed when this thread took a sour turn, but I admire the way you both got the discussion back on track.

Ursa Major made a great point when he said: "Can I do likewise with their pitching -- give them the highlights of the system to tweak their motions to at least make them safer? If the Marshall system is all or nothing, by contrast, than the reality is that it will be nothing."

I'm intrigued by Marshall's techniques and am wondering the same thing. Coach45, are there some small adjustments that I can make, to ease my way into the Marshall technique?

Ohfor