Does Dick Mills really know what he is talking about?

[RottenGazebo]

Does the Dick Mills system for uping your pitching speed really work? Or is he just out to get money?:confused:

[ElCaminoSS]

ya im suspicious

[Ursa Major]

I would take a lot of what Mills says with a tremendous grain of salt. He completely revamped the nature of his pitching approaching a few years ago, insisting that he'd had the benefit of new scientific principles, and is dismissive of anyone who doesn't follow these principles. However, he doesn't have the background to truly comprehend the science involved, and so issues a string of pop science pseudobabble.

I kinda like Steve Ellis' "Complete Pitcher" web site (http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/), as his advice seems well-grounded in theory and experience. There's a ton of information for free there, including his free "Ezine" that you can sign up for and which focuses on adding velocity.

[pgibbons]

Former Major Leaguer and pitching coach Dr. Mike Marshall had this to say about Dick Mills:

"FYI, Dick Mills not only destroyed his son's pitching arm, but he still teaches the same pitching motion to others"

From this website (http://www.drmikemarshall.com/Question-Answer2005.html).

[Ursa Major]

First of all, Mike Marshall -- with all his pitching experience and his advance degrees -- is considered by the baseball establishment to be a compete flake. Marshall is convinced that anyone who does not use his own bizarre pitching system will destroy their arm. It's sort of sad to see fathers asking questions in Marshall's web site's forums, and have Marshall respond, "Your son can do what his coaches are telling him, but his elbow will be destroyed in six months. Sorry. Good bye." Marshall by contrast teaches a strange motion that is hard to describe, but essentially requires the pitcher to bring his arm straight back, and then fling his whole body forward like a catapault, releasing the ball with the back foot already well in front of the body. (I may be unclear on the details; you have to buy the whole Marshall system to get the details.) Oddly, Marshall in a sense may be correct that this is the only way to take strain off the shoulder and elbow, but it deviates so much from everything you've ever been taught about throwing (much less pitching), that you essentially have to put your entire future into his hands. (Literally -- you move to his camp and live and train there for eight months.) So, what Marshall says about Mills is what he says about virtually every conventional pitching coach.

Second, as much as I may disagree with Mills, I don't think it's fair to take the example of one of his pupils and assume that the failure of the pupil (in this case, his son) is attributable to his system. His son was a promising pitcher whose career was ended by injury. The arm is a complex thing, and a lot of reasons could explain the injury. And, as I noted, what Mills may have taught him then may be different from what he is preaching now.

[chisox2k5]

I prowled Mill's forum a while ago, and the main thing I remember was that he said weight lifting is BAD until you are some ridiculous age.

He also said creatine causes kidny failure is dangerous (which it doesent, and which it isnt)

[XFactor]

I don't think he is out for money. His son is a millionare, and Dick himself is doing quite fine. He said (and no I haven't looked at his reciepts, just taking his word for it) that he has spent thousands of dollars trying to better understand pitching and the science involved in it. And he is also writing a 500+ page book with a very well known science person.

Much of what he says makes sense. At least he is trying to better himself and admits that he is wrong, where as other pitching "gurus" (spelling?) Think they know everything, and if you prove them wrong they hate and despise you

[Jake Patterson]

Dick Mills has been around for a while. As a middle school pitcher I would not get too involved with coach's that have a "revolutionary" way to teach pitching. There are a hundred coaches like Mills out there, many come and go. Most try to sell a "revolutionary method" so you buy their product.
Much of what Dick teaches is sound, but confusing. Pitching, like hitting is accomplished with rotational and linear force, Dick likes to call this "Elastic Energy" I think all it does is confuse the younger players.
For someone like yourself I would recommend going to a baseball training facility. Check out America's Game, and The Hitting Zone, (Hiddengem is part owner. I went to his site and it looks pretty good). They will give you an idea of what you should be looking for in your area. If you can't find one, ask your local high school coach. Spending $30-35 at a place like this is sometimes much more responsible than having your parents buy Dick's program for $400.00. If it doesn't work out - you're only out the $30-35

[louisvilleslugger]

I would take a lot of what Mills says with a tremendous grain of salt. He completely revamped the nature of his pitching approaching a few years ago, insisting that he'd had the benefit of new scientific principles, and is dismissive of anyone who doesn't follow these principles. However, he doesn't have the background to truly comprehend the science involved, and so issues a string of pop science pseudobabble.


Why change your style?
Didn't Tiger Woods struggle for a couple years trying to redesign his golf swing?
Why Reinvent the wheel?

If it works then use it.

To me it's just another guy trying to bring some fresh concepts to the game which may or may not be a small factor.

If your pitching techniques work and you have good mechanics use them.

[hit-it-hard]

If you're really interested in understanding pitching mechanics, I would recommend reading everything I could on pitching-mechanics.org. The information has been invaluable to me - and you can also post your video clips and have them reviewed by very knowledgeable folks. The site is free although you do need to register (site does not spam registered users).

Definitely would recommend this before spending the bucks on Mills program.

hit-it-hard

[Ursa Major]

Louisvilleslugger said: If it works then use it.
To me it's just another guy trying to bring some fresh concepts to the game which may or may not be a small factor.
Louisville, you quoted my doubts about Mills' thinking, and then said this, among other things. I'm not sure if you intended to disagree with me on some point.

I have no problem with someone "bringing fresh concepts", but it's like using prayer to cure cancer. It's fine if you believe it, but don't forego what may be better cures until it's too late. Some of Mills ideas on techniques may well be worth trying without any risk, and you can disgard them if they don't work. But, if you take them as gospel without trying other methods, you may not be getting everything out of your pitching.

I think Jake's idea of getting an experienced local coach to give you a session or two is excellent. I would start with someone who's taught kids like you and who has gotten good reviews. Just because someone is a high school coach or a former pro doesn't mean they know how to teach kids like you. If there's something on Mills' site that you think might help, you can ask his opinion as to how they might help YOU.

[chisox2k5]

If you're really interested in understanding pitching mechanics, I would recommend reading everything I could on pitching-mechanics.org. The information has been invaluable to me - and you can also post your video clips and have them reviewed by very knowledgeable folks. The site is free although you do need to register (site does not spam registered users).

Definitely would recommend this before spending the bucks on Mills program.

hit-it-hard

Bump to this, Paul Nyman provides information and advice for free, unlike Mills. Nyman's advice is also better, and I've seen both of their programs.

[louisvilleslugger]

Ursa Major
I appologize I should of been more elaborate and clear.
I wasn't quoting to disagree.
What I meant by if it works use it, is if the pitching technique you all ready have works use that instead of looking to a man teaching new concepts that may not even be a factor to helping you at all.

Sorry it might of looked like I was leaning towards follow Mills concepts but I actually meant just the opposite.

I totally agree on take his teachings with a grain of salt for the record.

[runningshoes]

Everyones always trying to build a better mouse trap, but we still can't catch the mice.

[Ursa Major]

Louisville, no apology necessary. I was just trying to clarify your position, as it seemed that you and I were pretty much in agreement. Usually people quote someone else to either expressly agree with them or, more frequently, take shots at their opinions.

[wogdoggy]

A friend of mine let me use his 3 dick mills tapes.The tapes show the towel drill and others and like ANY information if you look hard enough you can find some GOOD.Dick mills has a FEW ggood things in his 3 tape series.They become boring very quickly.I also bought ron wolforths athletic pitcher program which has only backtraining workouts for pitchers.ZERO on mechanics.I also viewed a TOM HOUSE tape wher he was pitching with Randy Johnson and NOlan RYan,this tape also had some Great pointers.So look for the Good stuff in these info tapes and use it.No one is Better than another .:gt

[XFactor]

Why change your style?
Didn't Tiger Woods struggle for a couple years trying to redesign his golf swing?
Why Reinvent the wheel?

If it works then use it.

To me it's just another guy trying to bring some fresh concepts to the game which may or may not be a small factor.

If your pitching techniques work and you have good mechanics use them.

Tiger Woods did struggle, why reinvent the wheel. Why try and become better. Let's all throw 80 MPH and call it a day... who would want to become better?

I guess some of you aren't that competitive... Tiger Woods is... he knew he used his swing to it's full potential, and people would be trying to copy it and be just as good as him in no time. So he revamped it to become even better. What's wrong with that?

Yes, if you can throw 94 MPH and throw every pitch in any count for a strike 100% of the time, you obviously have nothing to change. But if you can't... THEN YOU NEED WORK

[Kripler1]

Who is dick mills. I never have heard of him:hp :hp :hp :hp :confused: :confused: :confused: :noidea :noidea

[jbooth]

Who is dick mills. I never have heard of him:hp :hp :hp :hp :confused: :confused: :confused: :noidea :noidea

He pitched 3.2 innings for the Boston Red Sox in 1970.

He has been selling pitcher training videos since at least 1990.

[Kripler1]

Oh............................. Thank - you

[Coach45]

I disagree radically with the thought that Dr. Marshall is a flake. If you take the time to understand what he is teaching you will know, absolutely, positively, that he is correct. It is one thing to debate unverifiable 'opinions' and yet another to debate over scientific facts.

Currently I teach Dr. Marshall's mechanics. We train seven days per week, throwing an equivalent of over 100 pitches per day. Young men learning these mechanics WILL NOT injure their throwing arm because of biomechanical flaws. A high schooler I am training won a State Legion Championship using this methodology in summer 2005. He stands to be the best pitcher in our state come spring of 2006.

After the 2003 MLB draft, when my son was drafted, I started researching pitching-arm injuries. In the past two years I have invested well over 1500 hours of my time studying this. While other guys can claim that they have the answers, I can provide PROOF that they do not know what they are talking about. Ask me a specific question and I will provide a factual, scientifically based answer.

If you have a son who wants to pitch, you need to know Dr. Marshall.

[hiddengem]

I know personally many Major League and Minor League pitchers who are students of Tom House. Randy Johnson and Greg Maddox to name a few. I haven't talked to him in quite a while but I know he has quite a following.

Ryan Mills was genetically gifted out of college, tall and could throw average major league speed (91+) from the left side, and so he was drafted high and cashed in.

If I'm not mistaken he has since blown out his arm in pro ball and I haven't heard much about him. This is not to say that his dad doesn't know what he is talking about, but on the other hand I haven't heard many positives about him in the professional arena. Many folks will tell you that his dad has ridden the coat tails of his son straight to the bank. He had a add in BaseballAmerica for quite a while (might still be there) talking about his 1st round son. This is not my opinion, but what I have heard.

[Coach45]

I personally know young men who trained with Tom House that blew out their Ulnar Collateral Ligament, necessitating Tommy John surgery if they wised to continue in baseball. I know what causes these injuries and Tom House is responsible for teaching the mechanics that caused the injuries. Personally responsible in my opinion. Just because he has a following and has worked with major league pitchers does not mean that he knows what he is talking about.

You might ask Randy Johnson why he blew out his knee last year, putting him on the Disabled List. I suspect it is because Mr. House told him that, in order to release the ball closer to home plate, he had to increase his stride length. The posting knee takes a horrendous beating when you do so. Look at pictures. Likewise, imagine the damage being done to the glove-side hip. Why do professional pitchers have hip replacement surgery at rates so far above the national norms? Look at pics; the conclusions should be obvious, yet we seem to ignore the obvious.

I also know, personally, a young man that has had nine, count them, nine arm surgeries, all caused by pitching. The major league team that employed him released him. Would you say that their pitching coaches were competent? In the legal sense, the word negligent comes to mind. Just because they work with professional pitchers does not mean they know what they are doing. The good old boy network is alive and well, to the detriment of pitchers everywhere.

Using Dr. Marshall's pitching mechanics none of these injuries are a factor. If you are willing to invest the time, you also will understand why. By the way, guys trained this way who actually do what Doc requires of them (statistically rare) increase their release velocity, throw a huge selection of pitches that make what MLB pitchers throw look weak in comparison, and throw with maximum intensity each and every day. No one in professional baseball (or anywhere else) can do this, let alone stay injury free. Go look at the history of the disabled list from the last couple of seasons. If you have the courage, prove it to yourself. The idea of 'overuse' is a crock.

By the way, average major league speed is not 91+, it is much closer to 88. I know. I talk with an area scouting supervisor on a pretty regular basis. Gotta go and let my blood pressure come back down.

[Ursa Major]

Hey, Coach45, thanks for weighing in. Please note that I did not say that I myself thought that Marshall is a flake, but that many others do so. I think we can agree on that point, and he rails about the way the "establishment" treats his ideas.

I really would like to jump on the Marshall bandwagon. I love the idea of having an open enough mind to see when conventional wisdom is faulty and embracing new thinking, the way I have with rotational mechanics in hitting. I spent the better part of a day cruising around his web site reading his ideas. But, I just can't do join up with the good doctor.

The problems that I have with Marshall are these:
1. He never really tells you on his web site what exactly his motion looks like. You have to dig, dig, dig through theory to finally get a sparse description of it. And he has no video or photos! We're just supposed to take it on faith.

2. He, like you in your posts, engages in the sort of histrionics about ruining arms that allegedly comes from conventional wisdom. Yes, tens of thousands of young men pitch every year and many have serious arm miseries. And many more don't. Until we come up with a scientific assessment of what kind of injuries flow from what kind of training, we're stuck with anecdotal evidence about arm problems. Pitching overhand is an unnatural act regardless of what you do; many will get hurt.

3. You really can't learn his system unless you go to live with him, although there are apparently a few coaches like you whose faith makes it possible for others to learn. Terrific. And it's nice to get at least one success story. But, frankly, given that the technique apparently is so revolutionary, we're going to need to have a lot more success stories to get people to turn around. And a lot more measured, independent studies of his graduates to substantiate his (and your) assertions that his system is guaranteed to prevent arm woes. But he does not apparently have a single name of someone who has so succeeded. And he's been teaching this system for a long time.

So, I think that it is asking for a phenomenal leap of faith for others to embrace Marshall. And, even if they did, what good would it do if they simply can't run out to your program or Marshall's facility to get trained? If the tree only falls in another forest, no one here can hear it, so it may as well not have fallen, if you follow me.

Would you and your success story be willing to post videos and stats (including "before and after" velocity numbers) somewhere so that we can see what Marshall really is about?

[jbooth]

Hey, Coach45, thanks for weighing in. Please note that I did not say that I myself thought that Marshall is a flake, but that many others do so. I think we can agree on that point, and he rails about the way the "establishment" treats his ideas.

I really would like to jump on the Marshall bandwagon. I love the idea of having an open enough mind to see when conventional wisdom is faulty and embracing new thinking, the way I have with rotational mechanics in hitting. I spent the better part of a day cruising around his web site reading his ideas. But, I just can't do join up with the good doctor.

The problems that I have with Marshall are these:
1. He never really tells you on his web site what exactly his motion looks like. You have to dig, dig, dig through theory to finally get a sparse description of it. And he has no video or photos! We're just supposed to take it on faith.

2. He, like you in your posts, engages in the sort of histrionics about ruining arms that allegedly comes from conventional wisdom. Yes, tens of thousands of young men pitch every year and many have serious arm miseries. And many more don't. Until we come up with a scientific assessment of what kind of injuries flow from what kind of training, we're stuck with anecdotal evidence about arm problems. Pitching overhand is an unnatural act regardless of what you do; many will get hurt.

3. You really can't learn his system unless you go to live with him, although there are apparently a few coaches like you whose faith makes it possible for others to learn. Terrific. And it's nice to get at least one success story. But, frankly, given that the technique apparently is so revolutionary, we're going to need to have a lot more success stories to get people to turn around. And a lot more measured, independent studies of his graduates to substantiate his (and your) assertions that his system is guaranteed to prevent arm woes. But he does not apparently have a single name of someone who has so succeeded. And he's been teaching this system for a long time.

So, I think that it is asking for a phenomenal leap of faith for others to embrace Marshall. And, even if they did, what good would it do if they simply can't run out to your program or Marshall's facility to get trained? If the tree only falls in another forest, no one here can hear it, so it may as well not have fallen, if you follow me.

Would you and your success story be willing to post videos and stats (including "before and after" velocity numbers) somewhere so that we can see what Marshall really is about?

I'll second all of that. I've never seen a Marshall pitching motion demonstated. I've only read descriptions and it sounds weird. And I haven't heard of anybody who uses his method, who is playing in MLB. That doesn't mean much by itself, since only a select few make it to MLB using any method, but you would think after all this time, at least one of his followers would have made it.

[Coach45]

Gentlemen,

Thank you kindly for your thoughts. Finally, a couple of intelligent guys who are at least willing to question convential wisdom, and rather eloquently. As I have time later today I will answer each of your questions more in-depth.

There are two pitchers who have thrown in the major leagues with at least a variant of Dr. Marshall's mechanics. Case number one: Dr. Marshall, though he had not yet learned everything he now knows, threw with the same arm action that he teaches today. With this arm action it is possible to throw a screwball (he had the best of all time) without arm problems, hence he owns the all-time record for closer-relief innings in a single season. He discovered this arm action by conductng active, scientific research using high-speed film (500 frames per second). He was both the researcher and the subject of the research. People within the baseball establishment pass Doc off as a 'freak' because they do not understand what he did. (By the way, he was there as a teammate of Tommy John the day John ruptured his UCL.) Case number two: Dr. Marshall does not wish to ride anyone's coattails and refrains from using the second gentleman's name; I will honor his wishes. Having spent time in Doc's Zephyrhills, Florida training facility, it has been my privelege to become familiar with this young man. Dr. Marshall trained this young man, first at the college level where he threw in the 83 mph range. When he threw in pros (MLB) he was clocked as high as 96-97 mph. I have seen him throw, sitting directly behind the receiving net, watching pitches do things that make conventional wisdom look decrepit. If you dig deep enough you can discover his name. I will tell you that he threw two years for a southeastern U.S. MLB franchise. Yes, at the major league level. If memory serves right his combined ERA is about 3.7.

You must understand that, like anything new, Dr. Marshall's research is a work in progress. Having spent vast time over the past two years learning what he is teaching I have seen numerous small changes made in his pedagogy. He is very, very close to having it all complete, right down to the finest details.

In calling the acceptance of an idea 'faith,' you are absolutely correct. However, faith is not blind. Though my background is in a science-related field I was not remotely equipped to understand what Marshall is teaching. Learning what I now know about Anatomy, Physiology,Kinesiology, Applied Biomechanics and Physics has been tremendous fun. (My investigations into these fields has also taught me that some purported 'experts' in each of these fields makes mis-statements of scientific fact.) The young man I am training has also been afforded the benefit of learning about these subjects, for we talk about them daily as I continue to learn.

On the flip side, to accept the conventional wisdom is also a leap of faith. This leap of faith appears blind if you are willing to take current injury stats as acceptable. In 2003 alone, MLB pitchers on the disabled list cost major league franchises (and consequently their customers) over $200 million in lost salaries. This does not include replacement costs or medical costs. More importantly it does not include the human cost. Someone's husband, father, and/or son was maimed. The evidence for the injury scenario is not anecdotal. If you take the time to understand what Dr. Marshall is saying (granted, he could make it easier and I hope to assist him in making this possible) you will understand the specific flaws that cause specific injuries. The next video he will be releasing shows high-speed film of the traditional pitching motion. What you 'think' the arm does is not what the arm (and shoulder girdle) actually does. What Dr. Marshall calls 'reverse forearm bouce' will make you cringe. When you see it you will understand UCL injuries. I agree that he needs get this in people's hands so that they can see for themselves.

I will do everything I can to help you understand. Is there a way to post pics...I'm new to Internet forums? I will post more to this tonight when I return from work.

Sorry. Gotta run.

[hiddengem]

IBy the way, average major league speed is not 91+, it is much closer to 88. I know. I talk with an area scouting supervisor on a pretty regular basis. Gotta go and let my blood pressure come back down.

As far as your "I know everything" comment about the major league fastball being 88. Maybe the guy you think is a scouting supervisor is really an insurance salesman who has you fooled. If the Major league average fastball was 88..heck every 3rd highschool in america would have 2 right handed pitchers on their team with a major league average fastball.

To set the record straight...The average Major League fastball for a left handed pitcher is 88-89. for a righty its 90-91.

Hey, I never said Tom House is a god or knows everything. I just said I know alot of players that have worked with him, none of them by the way have hurt their arm.

I also know players that have blown out their arms with pretty darn good mechanics. The harder you have the ablility to throw and put stress on your arm, the higher the chances are you are going to get hurt, so don't start thowing people under the bus when you really don't know everything.

[Coach45]

As far as your "I know everything" comment about the major league fastball being 88. Maybe the guy you think is a scouting supervisor is really an insurance salesman who has you fooled. If the Major league average fastball was 88..heck every 3rd highschool in america would have 2 right handed pitchers on their team with a major league average fastball.

To set the record straight...The average Major League fastball for a left handed pitcher is 88-89. for a righty its 90-91.

Hey, I never said Tom House is a god or knows everything. I just said I know alot of players that have worked with him, none of them by the way have hurt their arm.

I also know players that have blown out their arms with pretty darn good mechanics. The harder you have the ablility to throw and put stress on your arm, the higher the chances are you are going to get hurt, so don't start thowing people under the bus when you really don't know everything.


You have misspoken. The area scouting supervisor I speak of has become a very, very close personal friend. He is the same gentleman who sat in my living room and offered my son a contract to play for a MLB franchise. I am sitting at my desk looking at the contract (which we did not sign) and a cover letter from the parent club. The cover letter begins with: "In accordance with Major League Rule 4(e)(1), this Notice is to advise you that during the 2003 Selection Meeting our club selected the exclusive negotiation rights to your services as a professional baseball player........" Signed by the Director of Amateur Scouting. Perhaps you should think before you accuse. I suppose I could ask you about listing your occupation as 'pro baller.' What level? What position? What is your academic training in applied sciences?

I do not claim to know everything. I DO know why pitchers injure their arms. When you say that pitchers you know, with what you think are pretty darn good mechanics, blow out their arms, you would be wise to ask, 'why.' The mechanics that pitchers at all levels of baseball throw with and are currently taught is precisely what injures the throwing arm. To couch this as "the harder you have the ablility to throw and put stress on your arm, the higher the chances are you are going to get hurt, so don't start thowing people under the bus when you really don't know everything," tells me that you do not understand injury mechanisms. You are not alone, and that is the point.

Depending upon the particular biomechanical flaws pitchers exhibit, coupled with the specific timing inherent with that individual, determines which injury they will experience and to what extent. Would you say that John Smoltz has 'pretty darn good mechanics?' Explain to me the specific injury mechanism that has required him to have elbow surgery six times. Why did Mark Prior (a Tom House protege), nationally acclaimed in the press and in Will Carroll's book, Saving The Pitcher, as having PERFECT mechanics, rupture his UCL? And this, after Dr. Marshall specifically predicted that it would happen. You can find the documentation on the Chicago Tribune website. If you want the specific address I will dig through my files and find it.

True, using traditional mechanics the harder you throw, and the longer you do it, the likelihood of specific injury goes up. Using Marshall's mechanics, imperfectly, my son threw into the mid-90's this summer and continues to throw with this intensity every single day, seven days per week. With the overload training he is doing now he throws an equivalent of well over 180 pitches per day, seven days per week. Muscle fatigue? You bet, but he is not doing structural damage to the elbow and/or shoulder. The high school guy I am training currently puts in a minimum of over 150 reps per day, seven days per week. Perhaps you would like to speak with them. Don't take it from me. I can and will arrange a contact if you care.

It is not my intent to throw anyone under the bus. In this endeavor I know what I am speaking of. Your response tells me that you do not. Unknowingly perhaps, but you are nonetheless mistaken.

[jbooth]

I will do everything I can to help you understand. Is there a way to post pics...I'm new to Internet forums?

You must upload your picture or video to a location provided by your internet service provider. Not all providers, give you that space. Call your support desk.

Once you have uploaded to a server, it is easy. Just click on the icons above where you type your text and insert the URL of where your pictures/clips are.

The icons are the one that looks like a globe with a chain link, and the one that looks like a picture of a mountain.

[hiddengem]

I suppose I could ask you about listing your occupation as 'pro baller.' What level? What position? What is your academic training in applied sciences?

With the overload training he is doing now he throws an equivalent of well over 180 pitches per day, seven days per week.

I've played at every level of pro-ball A-Major League. Attended Pepperdine University on 100% scholarship.

I can hardly believe you are allowing yourself to admit you let your son throw the equivalent of 180 pitches per day 7 days a week. I sure hope your son signed that professional contract you spoke about..did he?

I believe the reason Prior blew out is because Pro-ball is a different world and most kids (and apparantly parents too) have no idea the wear and tear a full season of pro-ball has on your body. I happens to infielders, outfielders and all positions, not just pitchers. Why do you think pitchers are on such a strict pitch count these days? Clubs know that overuse, no matter how good the mechanics is a recipe for Surgery.

[Coach45]

Originally Posted by Ursa Major (responses italicized)
Hey, Coach45, thanks for weighing in. Please note that I did not say that I myself thought that Marshall is a flake, but that many others do so. I think we can agree on that point, and he rails about the way the "establishment" treats his ideas.

I did not sense that you believed Dr. Marshall is a flake. Rather, I indicated that I hate the thought that anyone would consider him such. At times he does 'dis' people, which I agree is counterproductive whether or not he is correct.

I really would like to jump on the Marshall bandwagon. I love the idea of having an open enough mind to see when conventional wisdom is faulty and embracing new thinking, the way I have with rotational mechanics in hitting. I spent the better part of a day cruising around his web site reading his ideas. But, I just can't do join up with the good doctor.

The problems that I have with Marshall are these:
1. He never really tells you on his web site what exactly his motion looks like. You have to dig, dig, dig through theory to finally get a sparse description of it. And he has no video or photos! We're just supposed to take it on faith.

It is true that seeing is believing. Only through serious, concerted effort on my part, with much trial and error (with a lot of Dr. Marshall's help and input) have I learned what he advocates. Soon he will be producing a video that will includes high-speed film of his pitching motion, high-speed film of the traditional pitching motion, and a complete how-to on how to teach his mechanics. I spoke with him this morning and he hopes to have this ready for production in the next few months.

2. He, like you in your posts, engages in the sort of histrionics about ruining arms that allegedly comes from conventional wisdom. Yes, tens of thousands of young men pitch every year and many have serious arm miseries. And many more don't. Until we come up with a scientific assessment of what kind of injuries flow from what kind of training, we're stuck with anecdotal evidence about arm problems. Pitching overhand is an unnatural act regardless of what you do; many will get hurt.

Last things first: by repeating the historical line "overhead throwing is an unnatural act...." you reveal that you take this as fact. Please, let me rewrite it for you. "Overhead throwing as we currently know it is an unnatural act that guarantees injury." Dr. Marshall has spent over forty years carefully, scientifically researching how we throw baseballs overhand. The scientific assessment already exists. Again people need to see it and Doc's upcoming video should put an end to this portion of the debate. If I could write the script he would have released this information long ago. I have seen high-speed film. Dr. Marshall has also told me of cursory, preliminary research he did for a major league team. When the general manager showed these high speed films to the pitching coach he was told "never to show them to his pitchers." The pitching arm and shoulder do not do what you think they do. When you actually see what the arm and shoulder go through in the traditional pitching motion you will understand why the conventional wisdom is wrong.

3. You really can't learn his system unless you go to live with him, although there are apparently a few coaches like you whose faith makes it possible for others to learn. Terrific. And it's nice to get at least one success story. But, frankly, given that the technique apparently is so revolutionary, we're going to need to have a lot more success stories to get people to turn around. And a lot more measured, independent studies of his graduates to substantiate his (and your) assertions that his system is guaranteed to prevent arm woes. But he does not apparently have a single name of someone who has so succeeded. And he's been teaching this system for a long time.

If you or anyone else cares to learn you can teach your son these mechanics. I have learned enough to teach someone fairly advanced skills; enough to win a State Legion Championship. It took a lot of time and I have thrived on it. For older, highly skilled athletes to learn what Marshall advocates it is best that they work with him every day, seven days per week. Who else can teach them? Who would not want to learn from a guy that won the Cy Young, who also has a PhD in Exercise Physiology. My son is currently doing so, and for all intents and purposes has been at Doc's since June of 2004. Mastering the incredibly complex neuromuscular sequences of what he teaches older pitchers to do requires that they 'unlearn' the traditional pitching motion. Talk about hard. For younger kids who have never known anything else the learning curve will be much shorter.

Defining 'success' as guys who make it in the big leagues is tragic. The chances of making it in the Bigs is almost zero...and my son is a pro prospect. How about defining success as keeping multitudes of kids injury free? The injuries to boys and young men are crippling and permanently deforming, robbing them of joy later in life. All of these specific injuries are completely unnecessary. I pitched at the college D1 level and tore up my shoulder. For years I couldn't throw with any intensity because of pain. I have trained myself to throw with Doc's mechanics (imperfectly, because I cannot devote the time to daily training) and I can throw high school batting practice all day long if I want...except for fatigue I would be pain free. Getting older is tough.

As I addressed in an earlier post, besides training himself (and winning the Cy Young) one additional protege has pitched in major league baseball. Dr. Marshall will not give you his name. Out of respect I will honor his wises, though I gave you some clues.

So, I think that it is asking for a phenomenal leap of faith for others to embrace Marshall. And, even if they did, what good would it do if they simply can't run out to your program or Marshall's facility to get trained? If the tree only falls in another forest, no one here can hear it, so it may as well not have fallen, if you follow me.

Someone has to take responsibility for teaching them. If you don't know someone who knows how I suggest that you do it yourself. It will be worth it and I know you are capable. Dr. Marshall is only one guy and so am I. When people find out that they can't beat our guys they will join us. Dr. Marshall has always answered my e-mails and always returned my phone calls, and there have been a whole bunch over that past two years. If you embark on this I can fairly say that he will stand by you. If you need another set of ears or eyes I too will do the same, at my expense if I can. Shouldn't this tell you something?

Would you and your success story be willing to post videos and stats (including "before and after" velocity numbers) somewhere so that we can see what Marshall really is about?

If you can explain to me how to post video I will figure out how to put it online. I think my high school lefty would agree to this, though I will need to check. I will also ask my son if I can use excerpts from his first-year video. After digging through piles and piles of info here are my high schooler's stats from summer 2005:

65 Innings Pitched; 78 Strikeouts; 39 Walks; 57 Hits Allowed (11 for extra bases); Zero Home Runs Allowed; 2.8 ERA

This was accomplished after four months of daily training, starting with the most basic of Dr. Marshall's drills. From my vantage point he was barely ready to pitch. The second time around, spring of 2006, we will get of taste of what he can be, as a high school senior. Currently he has fastballs that can move to either side of the plate, a screwball that breaks down and away from right-handed hitters (the way he throws it now it acts more like a sinker), and a curveball that bites hard down and into right-handers. Last year he had only two of these pitches ready, and not nearly so proficient as now. His velocities should be in the low- to mid-80's this spring. As a traditional pitcher I do not remember him topping 73-75...I do not believe he would ever have thrown near the mid 80's with conventional mechanics.

Thanks for your questions. Sorry if I got a bit long.

[Coach45]

I've played at every level of pro-ball A-Major League. Attended Pepperdine University on 100% scholarship.

I can hardly believe you are allowing yourself to admit you let your son throw the equivalent of 180 pitches per day 7 days a week. I sure hope your son signed that professional contract you spoke about..did he?

I believe the reason Prior blew out is because Pro-ball is a different world and most kids (and apparantly parents too) have no idea the wear and tear a full season of pro-ball has on your body. I happens to infielders, outfielders and all positions, not just pitchers. Why do you think pitchers are on such a strict pitch count these days? Clubs know that overuse, no matter how good the mechanics is a recipe for Surgery.

Congratulations on your ball career. Sorry if I jumped your case a bit. I'm weary of conventional diatribe and wish for genuine debate. I've done my homework.

I agree that overuse, with traditonal mechanics, is a recipe for surgery. Dr. Marshall's way to throw is radically different; it is more akin to throwing a javelin. Structural damage is not an issue when the arm and shoulder are used in a biomechanically sound way. These guys throw this much because they can. If you did it, with your mechanics, you would destroy your arm in short order. My son is currently throwing a ten-pound iron ball, just like he throws the baseball, 96 reps per day in addition to the other throws. If you or anyone else did this with conventional mechanics, one time only, it would be your last and you would head directly for the emergency room. By the way, Dr. Marshall predicted the specific injury that would happen to Mark Prior, before it happened. When you understand, if you wish to understand, that the baseball actually accelerates downward and backward when traditional pitchers 'cock,' you will understand that using the UCL like a giant rubberband is a really bad idea. Short version: Doc has designed a way to throw that doesn't do this.

How do you think that Marshall managed to throw in 106 games, 208 innings in one season as a closer/reliever? After a 14-year pro career he continued to pitch for, I think, nearly 30 years. Except for an accident at home when some shelving toppled over on him, his arm is intact. I don't know anyone else like that. Excepting modifications to make the mechanic more efficient, this is how he threw when he won the Cy Young. Doc threw bowling balls just like he threw the baseball. I know this is difficult to wrap the mind around. The point is it can be done and be done without destroying the arm. There is a different and better way to throw. That is what offends.

You did not say if you were a pitcher or hitter. No matter. As a pitcher how would you like to have thrown fastballs, at fastball velocity, that could attack both sides of the plate (that is, moving in or moving away)? How would you like to have thrown breaking balls and reverse breaking balls that were minus 20 mph? The best MLB breaking balls, from research, make about 10-12 complete revolutions on their way to home plate. I have high-speed film of my son throwing breaking pitches that rotate more than 25 times on the way to home plate. You can see and count each and every rotation of the ball...not so with video. Which pitch is going to move more? On top of this, how would you like to throw sinkers and sliders that are minus 10 mps? From the hitting side how would you like to outguess this pitcher? You could not possibly sit on a fastball. Goose Gossage saw my son throw a bullpen this summer. He kept asking how he could throw a slider so hard with such devastating movement. I kept telling him that he was in fact throwing fastballs. He told me no one can throw a fastball that moves like this. Not true. I have seen fastballs, at fastball velos, that move two home plate-widths laterally.

Agreed, pro ball is a different animal. You are right that position players and outfielders experience the same injuries, though less frequently. They obviously don't throw as much, with as much sustained energy as pitchers, yet they also tear up shoulders and UCL's? Shouldn't this tell us something? These injuries aren't limited to the pros. I have read medical journal articles that detail where a handful of nine-year olds have had Tommy John surgery. I personally know high schoolers who ruptured their UCL just playing catch. Pitch counts do nothing more that mitigate damage that is growing a pitch at a time. Marshall's mechanics completely negate this line of thinking.

I hope we can continue our discussion. I am not insane for allowing my son to throw this much, this way. One specific big league club understands. When the time is right he will get his shot...he's not ready yet.

[hiddengem]

I'm a hitter..stopped pitching in Highschool. How old is your son? If he has devastating movement on his fastball (assuming he's around major league average 90ish) and he can throw the equivalent to 180 pitches a day, why is he not ready? Something isn't adding up, you say your son had a a contract in front of him ready to sign. Did he get drafted? HighSchool, college?

[Coach45]

I'm a hitter..stopped pitching in Highschool. How old is your son? If he has devastating movement on his fastball (assuming he's around major league average 90ish) and he can throw the equivalent to 180 pitches a day, why is he not ready? Something isn't adding up, you say your son had a a contract in front of him ready to sign. Did he get drafted? HighSchool, college?

Age 20. Drafted out of high school 2003 MLB amateur draft. When he was drafted he was offered 1st contract signing opportunity, just like the rules require. Decided to go the JUCO route. Declined opportunity to sign a 2nd offer because we/he had made the decision to train with Marshall after much, much serious consideration. I pitched at the college D-1 level before destroying my shoulder. I know what it is like to go through life with pain and do not want the same for my son. There is an option and the option is better than the status quo.

He is not yet ready on several accounts. To be different you have to be better than everyone else. In the end it will not be these fastballs that are the bread and butter. Perfecting, mastering the breaking balls and reverse-breaking balls (screwballs) takes a lot of time. And then there are the sinkers and sliders. With time and training a single pitcher can throw them all. When he can throw each and every pitch, in the sequences Marshall wants him to, with both control and velos that can't be ignored, he will likely go back and destroy college hitters. It is better to do this far from MLB. When the time comes he will have his shot. There is no reason to push it. (By the way, with this mechanic the screwball is the easiest pitch on the throwing arm.)

The thing that does not add up is that as a family we view money strictly as a means to an end, so this is not about money. If everything goes the way I believe it will, he will have an opportunity to prove to the world that this can be done another way and that the other way (Marshall's) comes closer to truth. People resist change, but in business when you can't beat them you join them. (Unless, like the Yankees, you can buy them.) In the end this is genuinely about ending unnecessary throwing-arm injuries. I am not naive and time will write the end of this story.

As a pro hitter you know that there are fastballs, and then there are fastballs. The very, very best have a run or tail of, what, about 6-8 inches. One former AAA hitter my son faced this summer swung at a 2-strike fastball that he thought was on the outside corner. It ran in hard and almost got him on the hands and his swing was late. He popped up to third base. It hurt. How do you like to hit pitches of any speed that move dramatically as opposed to 95 mph fastballs with little life? I already know your answer. With Marshall's mechanics breaking balls and screwballs don't take a toll on the arm.

I appreciate your questions and wish you the best.

[hiddengem]

I truely wish your son the very best, and I hope he achieves his dreams. Most of us that have had the opportunity to play a the professional level learn and understand what its like to be humbled and have your lunch handed to you. This may or may not happen to him and I hope it doesn't, but make sure he is prepared mentally to handle this if it comes his way. By the way..throw me a PM with his name..I'd like to follow his upcoming season.

What round was he drafted in out of highschool?

I do understand your comment on Money, but trust me, if he passed up on an opportunity to seal his finacial future and blows out in college or performs poorly he and you will be kicking yourself.


Any pitchers in pro-ball right now using Marshalls mechanics?...I've never heard his name mentioned.

[Ursa Major]

Coach, I appreciate your analogy to javelin throwing, as that is how I'd pictured Marshall's technique. It sounds a bit like slinging -- which of course presents risks of elbow problems -- but I guess if you have enough shoulder action to propel the arm and don't snap the elbow too early, that would take a lot of pressure off. What also struck me is that you release with your arm-side leg a lot further forward than under conventional techniques, which would seem to require a lot of getting used to.

Last things first: by repeating the historical line "overhead throwing is an unnatural act...." you reveal that you take this as fact. Please, let me rewrite it for you. "Overhead throwing as we currently know it is an unnatural act that guarantees injury." Well, maybe it's not so unnatural if Dr. M. has you throwing the way that ancient cavemen threw a spear. :)
Dr. Marshall has spent over forty years carefully, scientifically researching how we throw baseballs overhand. The scientific assessment already exists. With all due respect to Marshall, the world is full of people with scientific credentials who nonetheless draw conclusions ill-supported by their research. Before poor Terri Schiavo's autopsy, certain religious groups were hauling out experts who insisted that she was doing differential calculus while she snoozed. Dick Mills purports to rely on scientific evidence, and he's got all sorts of obvious holes in his teachings. And, I know from my own line of work (law) that you can hire an "expert" to testify as to just about anything.

Marshall may know his kinesiology, but he's got to know that he needs to do something akin to a controlled study before anyone can take his claims of safety seriously. Anything short of that is -- I'm sorry to tell you -- still anecdotal. People are left to pulling out Mark Prior or Kerry Wood stories -- and I disagree that Prior has a perfect motion; he indeed is a disaster waiting to happen.

Again people need to see it and Doc's upcoming video should put an end to this portion of the debate. I have seen high-speed film. I don't see how a video can convince people of safety. I think at best it will get people to do what Epstein and high speed film did for hitting. But even then -- with people showing that major leaguers already were doing what Epstein wanted to teach people, you still run into resistance from people who insist on teaching techniques that are not designed to achieve the look of the swing that they're aiming for. Marshall has to teach people to look differently, which will be harder. Of course, he does have the advantage of being able to use numbers in a sense to prove his point. A new hitting method can only prove itself by a hitter going out and banging the ball for two months. A new pitching method, by contrast, can prove its merit by simply having a kid go out and throw for ten minutes. If his heater lights up the gun with a ten MPH improvement over his previous year's best and his hook breaks another four inches, coaches can become instant believers.
Dr. Marshall has also told me of cursory, preliminary research he did for a major league team. When the general manager showed these high speed films to the pitching coach he was told "never to show them to his pitchers." The pitching arm and shoulder do not do what you think they do. I saw that story on his web site. He takes pride in his outcast status. The problem is: what about his students' chances of getting signed and advancing through a system where the coaches don't know how to coach them? You can make the greatest car in the world, but no one will buy it unless there's a service system available. By not giving the world a chance to "look under the hood" of his system to be able to at least try to maintain it out in the real world, Marshall guarantees that few people will buy it.

It's obvious that you've considered that risk. I hope it pays off.
When you actually see what the arm and shoulder go through in the traditional pitching motion you will understand why the conventional wisdom is wrong.Define "wrong". At best, he'll be able to make an argument that kids who are willing to devote an incredible amount of money and time and put their careers on hold can perhaps become more effective pitchers. Who's willing to take that risk? My wife shrieks when I spend $120 on my son's new bat. And, I figure he'll be lucky to pitch maybe twenty games over the life of his career -- he's more of an infielder type than a pitcher. So, I'm not worried that Tom House's mechanics are going to cripple him. So, for whom is Dr. Marshall's system so "right" that it's worth the investment, in your opinion?

For what kind of team is your son going to be pitching next spring? He's not Venus Williams who can sit out tournaments at age 14 and and 15 while she grows up. He's using up the college eligibility he needs to prove himself and to pick up game sense; otherwise pro scouts will move past him. If he's got what you say he does, he should be able to make a splash. And, like it or not, if he doesn't pitch in a conventional setting then, you risk having yourself and him stigmatized as being more devoted to the Marshall system than to his baseball future.

[pgibbons]

I will do everything I can to help you understand. Is there a way to post pics...I'm new to Internet forums?

Coach45, I'm interested in this discussion and am willing to donate space on my web-site to you, if you have pics/videos that can help illustrate your points.

If interested, you can contact me through the link to my web-site below.

[Coach45]

Big Bear, While throwing a javelin in somewhat akin to Marshall's mechanics, there are distinct differences. It is nothing like slinging. Explaining this without video is like a bad trip to the dentist. I'm trying to figure out how to get the visuals online and will work on it... so I will wait until you can see the visuals to address some of your specifics. If I could brainwash your visual memory from everything you currently have stored about pitching the task would be easier.

You wrote (would someone please tell me how to take a partial quote from another document!): "What also struck me is that you release with your arm-side leg a lot further forward than under conventional techniques, which would seem to require a lot of getting used to."

My reply: Getting used to anything different takes getting used to. Pitchers of all shapes and sizes dislike making a mechanical change during a season and usually attempt to do so in the offseason. Releasing the ball this much closer to home plate is an obvious advantage that does not show up on the radar gun. Young kids who have nothing to 'unlearn' will not have anything new to get used to.

You wrote: "Well, maybe it's not so unnatural if Dr. M. has you throwing the way that ancient cavemen threw a spear."

My reply: "Thanks, I appreciate your keeping it light. Humor goes a long way."

You wrote: "With all due respect to Marshall, the world is full of people with scientific credentials who nonetheless draw conclusions ill-supported by their research. Before poor Terri Schiavo's autopsy, certain religious groups were hauling out experts who insisted that she was doing differential calculus while she snoozed. Dick Mills purports to rely on scientific evidence, and he's got all sorts of obvious holes in his teachings. And, I know from my own line of work (law) that you can hire an "expert" to testify as to just about anything."
Marshall may know his kinesiology, but he's got to know that he needs to do something akin to a controlled study before anyone can take his claims of safety seriously. Anything short of that is -- I'm sorry to tell you -- still anecdotal.

My reply: I have a scientific background and Marshall's scientific methodology is superb. Regarding a control group, you need equals. Do you really think that MLB will agree to this. The result would be horrendous lawsuits when they proved that they actually hurt guys. In an ideal world complete scientific methodology is exactly what is needed. No one in the world can accomplish it given current affairs. That aside, please point out what you think are specific holes in Dr. Marshall's advocacy. I will gladly address them one at a time.

You wrote: "People are left to pulling out Mark Prior or Kerry Wood stories -- and I disagree that Prior has a perfect motion; he indeed is a disaster waiting to happen."

My reply: Please tell me specifically, scientifically, why you think that Mark Prior is a disaster waiting to happen, as you claim. My contention is that Mark Prior, after initially cocking of the ball, accelerates the ball backward and downward violently. This is the action that ruptured his UCL. This is the action that each and every traditional pitcher throws with, some more violently than others. However, this is only one of the scenarios that injures the elbow, for there are others.

You wrote: "I don't see how a video can convince people of safety."

My reply: When you finally see what happens to the arm and shoulder during the traditional throwing motion, from high-speed imagery, you will see the exact set of physical circumstances that cause injuries like UCL tear.

You wrote: "I think at best it will get people to do what Epstein and high speed film did for hitting. But even then -- with people showing that major leaguers already were doing what Epstein wanted to teach people, you still run into resistance from people who insist on teaching techniques that are not designed to achieve the look of the swing that they're aiming for.

My reply: Your argument reveals much about the truths surrounding perception. In many ways we are victimize by what we think we see. Different people witness the same crime and differing perceptions are elicited. When someone designs a batting swing or a pitching motion based upon how they think it should 'look', the design is problematic. This is precisely how pitching has been and continues to be taught, based upon what we think we see. High-speed film reveals much more that you can't see. (I'm doing my best to put high-speed film up on the web. It may take a little while.) On video you cannot see the horrific backward and downward acceleration that the ball makes, that ultimately ruptures the UCL. On high-speed film it is not only obvious, it will make you cringe and wonder why in the world did we ever start teaching guys to throw like that. Unaided, can you see a bullet leave a gun barrel? You can with ultra-high-speed film.

You wrote: "A new hitting method can only prove itself by a hitter going out and banging the ball for two months. A new pitching method, by contrast, can prove its merit by simply having a kid go out and throw for ten minutes. If his heater lights up the gun with a ten MPH improvement over his previous year's best and his hook breaks another four inches, coaches can become instant believers."

My reply: You have got to be kidding. I wish I could think of a kind way to say this: to state that a new pitching method can prove its merits by simply working on a skill for ten minutes tells me you have never pitched and do not understand athletic training of any kind. I am not aware of a single athletic skill that requires more diligent neuromuscular training than pitching. If you think that velocity is what retires batters you are mistaken. Look at the home run numbers. Don't misunderstand me, I like high velocity pitching. When you combine superb velocity with pitches that move substantially and dramatically change speeds you have a combination that is toughest to beat. Dr. Marshall's system has the ability to provide the best of both...injury free.

I wrote earlier: Dr. Marshall has also told me of cursory, preliminary research he did for a major league team. When the general manager showed these high speed films to the pitching coach he was told "never to show them to his pitchers." The pitching arm and shoulder do not do what you think they do.

You replied: "I saw that story on his web site. He takes pride in his outcast status. The problem is: what about his students' chances of getting signed and advancing through a system where the coaches don't know how to coach them? You can make the greatest car in the world, but no one will buy it unless there's a service system available. By not giving the world a chance to "look under the hood" of his system to be able to at least try to maintain it out in the real world, Marshall guarantees that few people will buy it."

My response: I am unaware that Doc posted this story on his site. He shared it with me during a recent phone call. No doubt about it, Dr. Marshall is an independent thinker, but I assure you he does not take pride in what you and many others consider 'outcast status.' I suspect you have never spoken to the man so how can you make this judgement? There is definitive difficulty in entering a system ill-equipped to handle 'something different.' For this reason, and others, those he trains at an advanced level should not attempt to do so until they are better, much better than everyone else. This is the advice I have given my son. If he is not good enough at least he will know, and he will not spend the rest of his life with a disabled arm. Regading your last point, I again agree that when people can see the realities of what is happening, they can make informed decisions.

Earlier I wrote: "When you actually see what the arm and shoulder go through in the traditional pitching motion you will understand why the conventional wisdom is wrong."

You replied: "Define "wrong"."

My response: Wrong meaning what the arm and shoulder go through in the traditional pitch motion is what eventually causes catostrophic structural failure. I.E. wrong = biomechanically unsound.

You wrote: "At best, he'll be able to make an argument that kids who are willing to devote an incredible amount of money and time and put their careers on hold can perhaps become more effective pitchers. Who's willing to take that risk? My wife shrieks when I spend $120 on my son's new bat. And, I figure he'll be lucky to pitch maybe twenty games over the life of his career -- he's more of an infielder type than a pitcher. So, I'm not worried that Tom House's mechanics are going to cripple him. So, for whom is Dr. Marshall's system so "right" that it's worth the investment, in your opinion?"

My response: I am astonished that you are not worried that some variant of pitching mechanics are going to cripple your son. Apparently you and I see our sons differently. I will gladly, willingly lay down my life for mine. It seems you don't care if yours is crippled. If this is the case I pity you, and your son. Possibly this is not what mean at all and I have misinterpreted what you are saying. Maybe you mean you don't care about someone else's son. Please clear this up for me as I would not wish to think ill of you. Dr. Marshall's system is right for anyone who wants to pitch, and for that matter throw overhand. Investment? Doc offers advice for free. My e-mail account is jammed to the gills with his helpfulness. He has also paid for many, many phone calls so that we can talk pitching. For my son to train with him, on site, cost ten dollars per day for the first 315 days. Doc charged him another ten dollars a day for rent. Any training time beyond this, in perpetuity, is free of charge. If my son is fortunate enough to make it all the way, we have agreed to pay Dr. Marshall 5% of everything in excess of $5,000 per month. Training with a Cy Young winner who also understands what the body can and can't do without injury? Who in their right mind would make another choice?

You wrote: "For what kind of team is your son going to be pitching next spring?.... He's using up the college eligibility he needs to prove himself and to pick up game sense; otherwise pro scouts will move past him. If he's got what you say he does, he should be able to make a splash. And, like it or not, if he doesn't pitch in a conventional setting then, you risk having yourself and him stigmatized as being more devoted to the Marshall system than to his baseball future."

My reply: I understand your point explicitly. This next spring he will be continuing his training under Dr. Marshall's direct supervision. Learning these skills is a highly complex, demanding task, contrary to what you seemed to express above. Regardless, he will have two years of college eligiblity remaining at the end of next spring. By continuing to train through this spring he will be in the best position to take advantage of upcoming opportunities. This fall, after much debate and more than a few tears shed, he made the decision to leave a full ride scholarship behind because he was not yet fully prepared. This college coach will take him back in a heartbeat when he is ready. Does all this defy conventional wisdom? You bet. I have tried to tell you that this is much more about faith than about baseball. And so the last point becomes, if your arm is useless because of baseball, was there ever a future in baseball? The 'field of dreams' is more like the 'field of nightmares.' Do I have all the answers? Am I positive I have all the right ones? No, and I am doing what I think best in the overall interest of my son.

Yo, hiddengem, if you're out there, tell 'em about being humbled.

[hiddengem]

If my son is fortunate enough to make it all the way, we have agreed to pay Dr. Marshall 5% of everything in excess of $5,000 per month.





What do you mean all the way? To the Big Leagues or just to put on a professional Uniform?

Your son might not ever play a day in the Minor Leagues or Big Leagues. If he is fortunate enough to play in pro ball period he is going to need every penny he can get. Trust me..pro teams pay squat until you either get called up, spend 2 years on the 40 man roster or get called up.

So let me get this straight..you have paid him 20 dollars a day(10 for rent, 10 for instruction) for 316 days for a total of $6,300. On top of that your are going to give him %5 of everything obove 5k/mth in proball for his entire career? I've never seen a legit agent take a penny of a kids minor league salary. Most agents don't take anything until a player is making above the major league minium of 316k/yr.

If I've got this straight, I think you need to think twice about what you are doing.

[jbooth]

My response: I am astonished that you are not worried that some variant of pitching mechanics are going to cripple your son. Apparently you and I see our sons differently. I will gladly, willingly lay down my life for mine. It seems you don't care if yours is crippled. If this is the case I pity you, and your son. Possibly this is not what mean at all and I have misinterpreted what you are saying. Maybe you mean you don't care about someone else's son. Please clear this up for me as I would not wish to think ill of you.

If I was Ursa Major, I'd come over to where you live and punch you straight in the mouth many times. What a terrible thing to say. Accusing him of not caring about his son, yet you essentially laid your son out in front of Mike Marshall like a Guinea Pig in an experiment and said, "Go ahead doc, let's see what comes of your work."

[hiddengem]

yet you essentially laid your son out in front of Mike Marshall like a Guinea Pig in an experiment and said, "Go ahead doc, let's see what comes of your work."


I have to admit this comment has crossed my mind the more and more I learn about this situation.

[Ursa Major]

Coach, thanks for the lengthy response to my questions. I have read in depth a great deal of what Marshall writes on his web site -- and you are certainly right that he is willing to give away a lot of advice for free -- and I appreciate the opportunity to explore what Marshall is teaching. I think it's terrific that he's poking at conventional baseball wisdom and has people like you trying to explain what he does. But you should understand that we're entitled to kick the tires a bit.

And, no, I won't come and punch you in the face as JBooth suggests; he's met me and my son and his confirmation that I am a loving and caring dad is all the affirmation I need. But I will address that comment right up front. I have listened to everything you've written with an open mind and have accorded you all the respect that the father and coach of an apparently successful young pitcher is entitled to. But, for making the sort of comment that you did, you owe me the respect of listening to the most important thing you'll hear in this thread.

To recap, it came down this way:

I said:

"I figure [my son will] be lucky to pitch maybe twenty games over the life of his career -- he's more of an infielder type than a pitcher. So, I'm not worried that Tom House's mechanics are going to cripple him."

You replied:

"I am astonished that you are not worried that some variant of pitching mechanics are going to cripple your son. Apparently you and I see our sons differently. I will gladly, willingly lay down my life for mine. It seems you don't care if yours is crippled. If this is the case I pity you, and your son. Possibly this is not what mean at all and I have misinterpreted what you are saying. Maybe you mean you don't care about someone else's son. Please clear this up for me as I would not wish to think ill of you."

Now, Coach, you come onto this site with the apparent purpose of setting the world straight about Marshall's system. And then you blow whatever possible credibility you have by making the same sort of asinine, jihadist statement that Marshall constantly does. It's not good enough for you guys to say, "Gee, my analyses say that your kid, if he pitches 2000 innings over the course of his career, has a 37% percent chance of a disabling arm injury under the conventional approach, but only a 5% chance under our approach." No, it's got to be, "If you don't follow our approach, you don't love your son and wish him misery for the rest of his days." Come ON, Coach! That's the kind of crap Jim Jones handed out as he was hauling kids off to Jonestown before mixing up the Kool Aid.

You don't have the numbers to back up that statement. And, even if you did, what kind of ambassador for the system antagonizes the audience that way? And look at my d@mn post: I said he wasn't likely to pitch very much anyway (he's got a strong enough arm for the other positions, but isn't really suited long term to be other than a reliable spot pitcher). And even if he was a serious pitcher, you don't think his mother and I would have the sense to shut him down and take him to a doctor if he developed arm problems before anything serious occurred? And even as to pitchers who do develop arm injuries that cut short their careers and plague them now; how many would say that their entire baseball careers were rendered worthless to them? And hey, I've got a bum elbow (largely from carrying an oversized, 25-lb. laptop back when that's what they weighed) and a type-3 shoulder separation (from a skiing injury) and I can't throw for sh^t now, but I wouldn't regret the risks that brought those injuries on. So, Marshall's system isn't for my son (hell, he's only 11 and Marshall wouldn't take him) and I don't think I'm risking anything but letting him continue to try pitching while being careful.

Do I care about other people's sons and daughters? (Here's to Iola Borders and those who come after her...) Yes, and if Marshall has the key to their safety, then you and he have a lot more control about bringing his system to respectability and mainstream acceptance than I do. He knows what he has to do to achieve that acceptance if his system is superior. He prefers to call MLB scouts "jackasses" (see the story below). Fine. Let the system's almost non-existent penetration into the mainstream fall on his head, not mine.

You said: I have a scientific background and Marshall's scientific methodology is superb. Regarding a control group, you need equals. Do you really think that MLB will agree to this. The result would be horrendous lawsuits when they proved that they actually hurt guys.Yes, many charlatans and snake oil salesmen have scientific backgrounds too. Linus Pauling had a frickin' Nobel Prize in his pocket when he went off on his misguided Vitamin C jag. My point is that any Ph.D worth his salt knows that you have got to make an effort to have someone assess the performance or arm health of Marshall alumni vs. comparable pitchers who didn't go through the program. You don't need MLB's approval to simply look at statistics or ask around about arm health. That's the sort of paranoid excuse that frauds have used for years. Please understand: I am not accusing you or Marshall of being frauds or even of being wrong. But studies have been conducted of all sorts of medical treatments facing much tougher ethical issues (i.e., do you deprive the control group of possible life saving medicines?) in order to establish some kind of answers. Marshall has not to my knowledge tried to seriously assist such a study. The consequence of failing to do so is not just a missed opportunity at personal glory, but a perpetuation of the prejudice of against his system and its graduates. Thus, he does his own students a disservice. I gotta problem with that.
Please tell me specifically, scientifically, why you think that Mark Prior is a disaster waiting to happen, as you claim.Since we agree with each other, I'm not going to get into the "I see more than you" battle that Nyman's site specializes in. My point is simply that Marshall is not the only one to worry about his mechanics.
Your argument reveals much about the truths surrounding perception. In many ways we are victimize by what we think we see.I realize my point was obscured by my fancy talk. My point is simply that great hitters have been using rotational mechanics for years, but coaches still teach something different from what actually occurs in the best hitters. Marshall has an extra burden because what he teaches actually is completely different from what has succeeded over the years.

You take this further and say that people don't see the damage done to arms by the violent motions by which they throw but with high speed film will somehow see the light. Uh, no. Thousands of people make fine livings for many years with those motions and can still pick up their grandkids twenty years after retirement. So, a clear look at a conventional motion may look ugly in one sense, but no one's going to give up baseball for that reason, and certainly won't say, "Dang, Marge, load up the Winnebago and head down to Dr. Marshall's camp with young Lefty." People see war movies and still head off to war; they watch "Desperate Housewives" and still get married. People will stay with the known quantity and, even if you're right, will assume that the bullet of arm miseries will miss them. That's the reality Dr. Marshall faces.
I wrote: "A new hitting method can only prove itself by a hitter going out and banging the ball for two months. A new pitching method, by contrast, can prove its merit by simply having a kid go out and throw for ten minutes. If his heater lights up the gun with a ten MPH improvement over his previous year's best and his hook breaks another four inches, coaches can become instant believers."Coach, you replied: You have got to be kidding. I wish I could think of a kind way to say this: to state that a new pitching method can prove its merits by simply working on a skill for ten minutes tells me you have never pitched and do not understand athletic training of any kind.Coach, please re-read my comment. I didn't say one could learn a new technique in ten minutes; I said that a good scout or pitching expert (like your buddy the Goose -- gahd, I miss seeing him) could detect by watching for ten minutes armed with a radar gun and knowing a kid's prior history that a new pitching technique had worked for him. Hitters by contrast have to prove the effectiveness of their changes over a longer period of time. This in one sense would seem to work to Marshall's advantage. On the other hand, it also raises expectations; you'd think college coaches would hightail it over to Marshall's camp when it closes shop and snap up all the hot prospects with the 34 inch breaks on their fastballs and triple digit numbers on the radar gun. If kids with those numbers aren't on display after all his personal attention, it's easy for the scouts to write off his system.
Dr. Marshall is an independent thinker, but I assure you he does not take pride in what you and many others consider 'outcast status.' I suspect you have never spoken to the man so how can you make this judgement? This is my perception -- based on reading a zillion of his website posts -- from his lack of diplomacy in dealing with pro baseball. It's been awhile since I read his site, so I just glanced through it for examples. I quickly found this tale, in which he recites:

"Mount Everest is a mole hill compared to the wall of ignorance in professional baseball. Yesterday, at a professional baseball team tryout, after one pitch, a pitching coach stopped my most talented, major-league-experienced pitcher and spent five minutes telling him how he had to change his pitching motion. Then, when he refused, he ignored him and did not choose him to stay and pitch against hitters. Unfortunately, I was meeting with someone elsewhere at that time or I would have verbally taken that jackass apart."

Marshall may be right, but is this attitude going to help his kids get a real shot at a major league tryout? Anyway, you know him personally, so I'll accept your assessment of him. The real issue is this: how is he helping to get his kids' unorthodox style accepted by MLB? (As far as where I heard the story about the MLB executive trying to keep Marshall's ideas away from his pitchers; I'll be honest, it may not be the exact same story I read on the site but it was very close to it. The point is: he knows he's viewed in some baseball circles the same way network administrators view propogators of computer viruses.)
Coach wrote: There is definitive difficulty in entering a system ill-equipped to handle 'something different.' For this reason, and others, those he trains at an advanced level should not attempt to do so until they are better, much better than everyone else. This is the advice I have given my son. If he is not good enough at least he will know, and he will not spend the rest of his life with a disabled arm. I'll agree whole-heartedly with the first sentence, but not the rest of the paragraph. Let's say I've got a kid who's a very, very good pitcher. MLB quality? Who knows? Now, you're telling me that to make it with Marshall's system, he has to back away from the baseball establishment with its networks and grapevines, and the only way he can get back in is by being "much better" than the comparable kid who stayed on the Division 1 track. Maybe you with your experience in baseball and physiology can make such a choice, but who else would take that kind of gamble?
Coach concluded: I have tried to tell you that this is much more about faith than about baseball. And so the last point becomes, if your arm is useless because of baseball, was there ever a future in baseball? The 'field of dreams' is more like the 'field of nightmares.' Do I have all the answers? Am I positive I have all the right ones? No, and I am doing what I think best in the overall interest of my son.This is a very telling quote in many ways. You say "I am doing what I think best in the overall interest of my son" and "this is much more about faith than about baseball". Whose faith? He's a 20-year old kid who can vote and carry a gun and sign his own contracts. Somehow I'm reminded of all the protest marches I saw when I worked many years ago on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, D.C., where you'd see kids barely old enough to walk holding up signs with extremist slogans (both left wing and right wing), and it always riled me that parents would use their kids to push a cause the kids were much too young to understand, much less make a decision on.

It should be your son's decision. And if you realize that it is an issue of faith, you owe it to him to step back and say to him and yourself, "Son, I'm a big believer in this Marshall system and I appreciate your respecting my judgment. But I've got a lot emotionally invested in that system too, so my judgment may be a bit clouded. So, the best thing for you to do is to go get some independent advice from some people in baseball you respect. Go ahead and ask 'em the tough questions that you've learned from me and Dr. Marshall. But still, you've got to make the call on your own." Sure, we'll all leap in front of a train in a heartbeat to save our kids at the expense of our own lives. You, me, JBooth, and HG. But sometimes it's tougher yet to say, "Son, I may be wrong on this decision, so I want you to make your own call, and if you disagree with me, I'll back you 100 %."

I trust and hope you've done that with your son. And if you can truly say you have, well... JBooth can hold both our coats while we punch each other's lights out. Though, with my bum shoulder, you're not much at risk.

Anyway, keep up the good fight, Coach. Understand in everything I said, I truly hope that Marshall has the holy grail of pitching, and in thirty years the country will be dotted with Mike Marshall pitching centers and orthopedists will turn to dermatology . . . and we'll view the old way of pitching with the same horror that we know accord to bareknuckle boxing. But you're going to have to prove it the hard way.

[Coach45]

Big Bear, Thanks for the great debate and perspective. That you have taken the subject seriously and have not dismissed it offhand has already earned my respect for you. First off I owe you an apology for the way I handled comments regarding your son. I know better and I am ashamed. Please forigive me. You are fortunate to have JB as a friend and I would also prefer to claim him as mine. My tendency is to be more like him than otherwise ...mabe I should punch myself in the mouth. With my torn up throwing shoulder the fight won't last long. I know that Dr. Marshall can be very antagonistic and I promised myself I would not fall into that trap. I failed. I'm sorry for it and I humbly apoligize. You are correct in your assessment that this attitude is destructive and will not help matters. In Doc's defense, I believe that people who fight on the front lines are the ones who get shot at most often. In the war of ideas it seems that most of the shots are fired from those sitting the bench. This ultimately is what antagonizes men like Dr. Marshall. People want him to prove his theories; I suggest that someone set out to prove him wrong. In reality that is what we personally have embarked on.

The decision to train with Dr. Marshall was fully my sons, though he heeded my advice. He went into this with eyes wide open and with parents who support him. Will I feel somehow responsible if he is injured or if this fails? How could I not do so? My children have heard me apoligize to them, and to their Mother, many times. I freely admit my mistakes. Somewhere it has been said that if a man claims he has made no mistakes, then he is either a liar or has never accomplished anything.

The only other person I know who is likely to follow this course of action, on my recommendation, is the high schooler I am currently training. His parents and I have held long discussions about this. Everything is wide open for them to see in the light of day. Do I have pull with this young man? You bet. I coach him for free, almost an hour and a half per day, seven days per week. He is experiencing the truth of what is happening (or not happening) to his body, and has already become a much better pitcher than he ever could have become. Because of this he trusts me. If you would like to speak with him I can probably arrange it.

You said it well...'I truly hope that Marshall has the holy grail of pitching.' So do I. This process has been agonizing on many fronts and if you care to hear the story in person let me know how to contact you. In one sense my son is indeed laid out as a sacrificial lamb. We don't know if he is, or ever was, big league material. No one does. If Marshall is correct and someone, anyone, who is genetically gifted enough to throw in the big leagues can master what he teaches, and has the fortitude to complete the training that Doc advocates, this individual stands to be the best pitcher of all time. Throwing the vast array of pitches in this arsenal, with the ability to do it day after day after day, injury free, sounds like it's too good to be true. I want you to kick the tires, and in a sense my son (and the young man I am training, and others like him) are doing if for you. If you believe me.

At some point we decide who we are going to believe about everything in life. Hence my comments about faith. We place our faith in who or what what we choose to believe. Our increasingly relativistic society says there is no such thing as truth. So, is it then true that there is no such thing as absolute truth? If so, we are saying that it is absolutely true that there is no such thing as absolute truth. You get my drift.

You addressed my agenda. It's not really about Marshall. Ultimately it's about what I love about baseball and why I coach: baseball provides incredible opportunities to teach lessons about life, while the cost of lessons is cheap. We learn about failure, we learn about working with teammates, we learn about frustration and how to deal with authority, outfielders even learn to deal with loneliness...the list goes on ad infinitum. My deeper agenda is that I see people in positions of trust and authority, coaches, who are teaching kids something that is doing permanent, irreparable harm. The numbers are horrific; what proof do you want? If you want me to list chapter and verse from the medical journals, biomechanical journals, etc., I have a filing cabinet full of them. You can, and should, prove it to yourself, unless you are willing to continue accepting that 'the way we have always done it' is fine and dandy. Online, I suggest you type 'biomechanics pitching injuries elbow shoulder' into your search engine and see what turns up. Go look for yourself. I argue that the responsibility is yours, not some other guys, but I am certainly willing to help. If anyone chooses not to examine this personally it is fair to say they are making a leap of faith. I am not and have not placed my son's baseball future in Dr. Marshall's hands with blinders on. We also do not know how all of this will turn out. Life is not fair nor is it equitable.

So, do you believe me. To date my son, using Marshall's system, has thrown each and every day since June 13, 2004. I think he missed one day of training because of illness. Depending on the training regemin for the particular drill set he has thown some combination of heavy wrist weights, heavy iron balls, footballs (used to teach spin axes) and baseballs that meets or exceeds 144 repitions per day. (Right now it's acutally closer to 200 reps per day than 180...I forgot to include one activity in my earlier calculations.) At this point in his training he can, and does, throw more if he wants. This summer I saw him throw in a game and then throw another 75 pitches off the mound in the back yard later in the day. The limiting factor is fatigue. With lighter weights and iron balls my high schooler does basically the same thing, though with somewhat fewer reps. In all this time the most severe discomfort came for my son when he upped his intensity when first pitching competitively. That soreness was in the anterior deltiod, as opposed to structural, connective tissue and through this soreness he continued to train every single day. That he can throw a much broader array of pitches, all with greater movement, with higher release velocities than he ever had before (I think the scouting bureau has velos on file, so we have an independent source), and can work on improving it every single day, is all the proof I personally need. I wish you could experience what I have seen. Like I have said before this is unlike anything any of us are accustomed to.

I too would like to see scientific proof positive that Doc's guys can make it through the long-haul injury free as he claims. Time will tell. The sample size is incredibly small, three that I know of, but some results are there. Conclusive? No. Most everyone Doc has trained has quit before they become highly proficient...this task is incredibly demanding physically (and mentally). And so how do you include guys in a study that cannot or do not perform correctly? The variables are huge. Being different is extremely rugged. It's easier to conform, even when it's wrong. Peer pressure is proof enough. The sample size among guys who throw with traditonal mechanics is huge and the outlook for remaining injury free is less than bleak. If the numbers I have are correct, almost 95% of major league pitchers have reconstructive surgery. The actual numbers are difficult to ascertain because MLB will not release them publicly...issues of medical privacy. If you know differently I would love to see them. But all we have to do is look at the disabled list to find enough info to make the point. And voices raised in the medical journals specifically say, verbatim, that the problem has reached epidemic proportions.

Not to flog a dead horse but please tell me, specifically, what biomechanical flaw do you suspect caused Mark Prior and others to blow out their UCL? (I'm trying to get you to admit that you do not know. There is no shame in admitting that you don't know something.) Point is, the baseball community as a whole, medical included, has not yet answered the question. Certainly not in a way that has fixed the problem. Why? Don't we really want to know? I suspect that's really the answer, and as long as it isn't us we pass it off as OK. Our thinking is flawed. How many times does the space shuttle have to disintegrate over Texas before we do something about it? That event shut down NASA. The human cost of baseball pitching injuries is staggering. These injuries are not one time deals. Earlier, someone labeled this line of thinking as histrionics. No, it's the voice of reason. What resources can I provide that you will accept as proof? After spending vast amounts of time studying everything I can find, my conclusion is that Marshall has proven to me (more like helped me prove to myself), that beyond a reasonable doubt he is correct.

I know you would shut your son down from pitching and throwing if you thought he stood in harms way. So would any other rational parent. That said, then why are kids still getting hurt? We pass it off as 'throwing overhand is an unnatural act.' That line of thinking is pathetic, yet we have heard it so many times we pass it off as acceptable, simply because no one else has provided the proof. The most rational (and scientific) explanations are because the mechanics themselves are to blame. What do you need in order to have proof? Seriously. You have an open invitation to see my son throw. Please tell me what will convince you. I will dig it out. Ultimately I understand that this is what needs to happen, but in the interim you still have a choice to make about who you believe. Can you look at the DL and tell me that the current system looks good? And these are the mechanics we hold up to kids and say 'this is how you gotta do it if you want to succeed.' Not on my watch.

[Coach45]

Big Bear, I went looking for specific proof you might want to consider, in light of your statement that..."So, Marshall's system isn't for my son (hell, he's only 11 and Marshall wouldn't take him) and I don't think I'm risking anything but letting him continue to try pitching while being careful."

"In the 1965 California Medicine Journal, Orthopedic Surgeon Joel E. Adams, surveyed the bi-lateral elbow X-rays of one hundred and sixty-two 9-14 year old San Bernadino, CA males of whom 80 pitched, 47 played other positions and 35 did not play baseball. No subject suffered from elbow fractures, severe elbow infections or genetically deformed elbows.

Dr. Adams determined that physicians must compare non-pitching elbows with pitching elbows. Otherwise, physicians frequently incorrectly conclude that X-rays appear normal when accelerated maturation had prematurely closed pitching arm growth plates.

Dr. Adams found that 95% of the eighty 9-14 year old pitchers had premature medial epicondyle growth plate closure and humeral growth plate separation, 15% suffered medial epicondyle fragmentation and 8.6% suffered osteochondritis (cartilage inflammation) on their capitular and radial head’s articular surfaces. 48.8% of the forty-seven 9-14 year old non-pitchers also suffered from premature medial epicondyle growth plate closure and humeral growth plate separation, 12.8% had medial epicondyle fragmentation and 5.7% suffered osteochondritis on their capitular and redial head's articular surfaces. Lastly, 7.5% of the thirty-five 9-14 year old non-baseball players had premature medial epicondyle growth plate closure and humeral growth plate diaphysial separation.
"

......excerpted from Chapter Nine of Dr. Marshall's free, online book. (Note: I am procuring a hard copy of the study.

Do you understand the ramifications of premature growth plate closure, medial eipcondyle separation, etc? When you compare the disparities between baseball players and non-players do you reach any conclusions?

Have you ever been on or near the diamond when a young pitcher fractures or separates the inner side of the elbow (medial epicondyle)? Have you ever been on or near the diamond when a youth pitcher blows out his UCL, an injury not even covered here? Unfortunately, I have been there on both accounts and the result isn't pretty. Parents pack them up and head for the emergency room. Depending on the severity of the injury and whether of not they want to continue playing ball, the surgical fees are substantial, (do you want me to provide costs?) the rehab is gruelling, not to mention that in the interim Johnny can't use his arm and it will never, ever be the same. As a baseball pitcher he just lost the skeletal and/or structural ability to reach his full adult potential. Before Dr. Jobe did the original Tommy John surgery these pitchers careers were finished. We're not simply dealing with the cost of arms, we're dealing with the cost of unneeded pain and suffering, and very possibly, dreams.

Do you wish to alter your statement that you think you are not risking anything? Given the numbers above, here is proof you are in fact taking a calculated risk. You do not need Dr. Marshall to teach him for he has provided a way for you to teach your son. The two of you (or more) would have a grand time. I would also be happy to help you learn.

[Ursa Major]

Coach, first, apology accepted. You started with appropriate intentions and went overboard. Ultimately, it was just words and you don't know me, so it wouldn't be a matter of me being personall offended. I'll just stand in as a surrogate for the zillions of other dads who teach their kids conventional techniques. In turn, I took your over the top comments as an opportunity to be commensurately over the top in my snideness, which didn't contribute much to the dialogue.

My final thought on the issue of your son's consent to the risks of jumping on the Marshall bandwagon is that I think that it may not be enough for a Dad to say "It's your decision." Because of your influence on him and your zeal for the program, I think you have to go beyond that and both encourage him to get independent advice and assure him you'll back his decision either way (and stick with that promise). But, that's my parenting opinion, and lord knows I get enough disagreement on those skills simply within the confines of my own bedroom to expect a stranger to adopt them.

Further thoughts:At some point we decide who we are going to believe about everything in life. Hence my comments about faith. We place our faith in who or what what we choose to believe.I agree, and the starting point is understanding what the motivations are of the people you rely on. Anyone who achieves anything in life will be criticized by people who either don't know what's going on, don't know what they're saying, or have their own agenda for being critical. You should give little regard for their thoughts. In turn, though, you have to have a stable of friends whose opinions you respect and will give as much weight to as your own. Now, Dr. Marshall has an agenda; it may stem from the most altruistic of motives, but it remains an agenda. So, you have to have faith in those who will ask the tough questions of his program. Unfortunately, most people in baseball have their own agendas and it rarely will benefit by acknowledging Dr. Marshall's skills. That's the nature of life. So, you're hardpressed to know who you can rely on to advise you. Just don't forget to kick the tires yourself as you go along, to make sure Marshall is fully serving your son's interest, whether physically or emotionally.

This get's to an additional issue highlighted by this statement:
I too would like to see scientific proof positive that Doc's guys can make it through the long-haul injury free as he claims. Time will tell. The sample size is incredibly small, three that I know of, but some results are there. Conclusive? No. Most everyone Doc has trained has quit before they become highly proficient...this task is incredibly demanding physically (and mentally).Why don't they make it through? With Doc's small camp size, he ought to be able to recruit the most motivated kids from among those with the potential to excel. Why would they quit with the prospect of baseball excellence (not to mention fame and fortune) just over the horizon? of Is it just his personality that is so demanding? The killer pace? The isolation? Or the seeming lack of improvement in results? Even if the mechanical theory is correct, but kids just can't be counted on to complete the program, it fails just as much as if his theories were dead wrong.
If the numbers I have are correct, almost 95% of major league pitchers have reconstructive surgery. The actual numbers are difficult to ascertain because MLB will not release them publicly...issues of medical privacy.This starts to sound a little like the old Marshall paranoia. There's no privacy issue about cumulative figures about surgery issues. Has anyone reputable tried to do a study? It would seem to be important to the players, but the way the Players' Association has dealt with the steroids issue, it doesn't seem that it has players' health in mind.

Anyway, my concern is the issue of kids' health, as my son won't be going that far in baseball. I appreciate the San Bernardino study, although I worry about something that is 40 years out of date. Interestingly, it took place at a time and place (a dry-weather area of California) near where I grew up, and I surmise that a lot of those kids, like me, played baseball for hours every day. My son, by contrast, plays ball only during spring and summer, doesn't go off to the local school yard with his friends, and doesn't play for hours at a time like we did then. He just wants to be able to make his spot appearances and contribute to the team's welfare for what is likely to be the remaining three years of his organized baseball career (unless he becomes 6'2" all of a sudden...). And, as far as I know, none of us who played so much then came down with anything more than the occasional sore elbow. And, none of us played competitively beyond age 15 either. I think if kids of that era had suffered from longterm effects, we'd know about it because they're all my peers.

But, your issue is that who's really at risk are kids who might have a long term future. And, you offer: "You have an open invitation to see my son throw. Please tell me what will convince you. I will dig it out." Well, Coach, convincing me, who at most is responsible for a small part of the futures of twelve 11-to-12 year olds (only one or two of whom has any expectation of playing into high school ball), would be a waste of your time in view of the hard work you've put in. It's the high school and college level coaches who need to be persuaded. You ask, "What resources can I provide that you will accept as proof?" Ask them; I suspect that it's a neverending supply of kids with those heaters and huge curve balls. That's all.

Face it. You and marshall have to bring the proof to the troglodytes that is the baseball establishment and rub their faces in it. Get a traveling squad to go to tournaments and pitch no-hitter after no-hitter. That's the history of baseball ... of all sports. Logic and common sense alone? Are you kidding? ;)

Do you wish to alter your statement that you think you are not risking anything? Given the numbers above you are in fact taking a calculated risk. You do not need Dr. Marshall to teach him for he has provided a way for you to teach your son. The two of you (or more) would have a grand time. Given the fact that your son throws every day and still feels he needs to remain in the Marshall Monastery in Zephyrsville, I have to wonder what I can expect him to accomplish from a $100 video and an occasional trip to the local pitching mound. I'm still trying to sell him on the benefits of rotational hitting. I'm not willing to sacrifice whatever capital I have left in the Dad-as-teacher-bank to try to get him to alter his pitching motion for his occasional appearances.

BTW, on the Prior issue, I can't tell you off the top of my head what I thought to put him at risk. Frankly, I believe my belief came from some exchanges on the Nyman site with which I agreed from viewing Prior's motion. Again, it's irrelevant why I believed he was at risk; the point remains that Marshall was not alone in making his prediction. And, again, if 95% of MLB pitchers have to undergo reconstructive surgery, predicting that any pitcher is likely to undergo arm miseries is hardly a huge leap, is it?

[Coach45]

Quote From Coach:
Do you wish to alter your statement that you think you are not risking anything? Given the numbers above you are in fact taking a calculated risk. You do not need Dr. Marshall to teach him for he has provided a way for you to teach your son. The two of you (or more) would have a grand time.

Ursa's Reply:
Given the fact that your son throws every day and still feels he needs to remain in the Marshall Monastery in Zephyrsville, I have to wonder what I can expect him to accomplish from a $100 video and an occasional trip to the local pitching mound. I'm still trying to sell him on the benefits of rotational hitting. I'm not willing to sacrifice whatever capital I have left in the Dad-as-teacher-bank to try to get him to alter his pitching motion for his occasional appearances.

Coach's reply:
Big Bear, You continue to miss the point. You ask for proof, I supply it (more below) and then you say the proof doesn't matter. This is precisely the attitude that continues to put kids at risk. As a coach (you say you are responsible for 12 kids, 11-12 years old) you have a responsiblity to know what you are talking about because you are responsible for their safety. When you teach them something that (even unknowingly) puts them at risk you should be held accountable. I'm quite certain you would get kids off the diamond in a lightning storm.

Your response to me seems defensive. My son in not in 'Marshall's Z-Hills Monastery.' Aside from working full time to support himself he is throwing every single day because he might possibly have a baseball future...he was drafted by a MLB franchise. We are going to find out how good he can be using Marshall's mechanics. I don't know how good this can be, and only time is going to show us. Already he is throwing much higher quality pitches with higher velocity than when he was drafted. Having to unlearn what he already did at a high level is much, much tougher than learning it when you are a kid. If he had learned Marshall's techniques earlier this process would be shorter. Who do you think taught him the mechanics that helped get him drafted? You should realize that I am admitting that what I thought I knew was wrong. I am tremendously fortunate that I did not destroy his arm; he has never been hurt. He was a serious injury waiting to happen. (Hint: start with your boy now.) I have never used up my capital with my children, and one of my sons is 26 and married. They trust me because they know I will always stand up for what is right and true, even in the face of considerable adversity. Do I make mistakes? Absolutely, and they know I acknowlege them and make good in return. They continue to solicit my advice and this is one of the greatest blessings of my life.

With Doc's upcoming video in hand you can teach your son to throw in a way that won't tear up his arm. You can teach him better pitches. In the process he will improve his throwing skills far beyond what you think he can accomplish. You and he can work on it every day. What a wonderful opportunity to spend time with your boy, helping him learn something he loves to do. I have taught the high schooler I am training with far less sufficient info than the new video will show. He is excelling far beyond what he could have accomplished with traditional mechanics. I reiterate my offer to help you learn. Just like Dr. Marshall has provided help (free) for me. Quite possibly, of the kids you are working with, more than one or two would have the chance to play high school ball. If you are really interested in coaching help give 'em a shot.

Since you think a 1965 study is out of date I have supplied the following study from 2004 (American Journal of Sports Medicine). The full text cites Dr. Adams 1960's research. With this link you can view the abstract for free (you will need to pay to see the full text, but the abstract recaps it fine):

http://ajsm.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/1/79

Here are the results from this study of 343 Little Leaguers:
The American Journal of Sports Medicine 32:79-84 (2004)
© 2004 American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine
A Clinical and Roentgenographic Study of Little League Elbow

Results: Clinically, 58% of the pitchers presented with soreness compared to 63% in catchers and 47% in fielders. Radiographic examination revealed hypertrophy of the medial humeral epicondyle in all pitchers and catchers and 90% of the fielders. Separation of the medial epicondyle was found in 63% of pitchers, 70% of catchers, and 50% of fielders, while fragmentation was found in 19% of pitchers, 40% of catchers, and 15% of fielders. In subjects with separation or fragmentation, 49% and 56% complained of elbow soreness, respectively.

Please note that only 50% of the kids in this study who had these injuries even complained of the pain. The injuries that this study describes are permanent and deforming in nature. They minimize adult potential. Skeletal deformations like these are used, archaeologically, to determine if bones belonged to the 'upper class' or to slaves. There are many more specific types of injuries to the throwing arm than the ones this study cites. Again, what proof do you want to see. I will dig it out.

If you need help with terminology and what some of this means I will gladly help. You will note that catchers have even higher rates of injury. I have pictures of Mark Prior that clearly show how his pitching mechanic resembles the throwing mechanic of catchers. This is the mechanism that blew out his UCL. On high-speed film this becomes crystal clear because you can see the throwing hand bounce downward and backward, using the UCL like a giant rubberband. You missed the point again. There are a spectrum of throwing injuries. Doc pointed out the specific injury that Prior would suffer, before it happened.

Again, I ask you if you would like to reconsider your position? I am not trying to badger you into anything. Look at the evidence and think for yourself. By the way, in general, Dr. Marshall does not get the finest students. With the promise of big bucks from MLB why would they take a chance on something different?

Once last item. You are correct that no one reputable has ever done a comprehensive compilation of MLB pitching injuries that has ever been released to the public or, as far as I know, to the players union. You are mistaken that this is an easy task. I've tried. The closest I can come is a database that I believe Will Carroll has (baseballprospectus.com). On the phone he told me that he would not share it for privacy reasons (player privacy, that is). You made something close to an accusation here, my friend. Please back it up yourself. Have you even looked at the MLB disabled list? I've done my homework. Are you really asking me to do yours too? That said, having done the homework I can find things a lot quicker than you can, saving you a lot of time. What evidence do you want?

[Ursa Major]

Your response to me seems defensive. My son is not in 'Marshall's Z-Hills Monastery.'Well, Coach, I tried to keep that humorous vein you love so much, and you took me seriously. I was simply saying that your son is really devoting himself to his craft and still has a long way to go; I was wondering how close my son could come to success from engaging in far less intense training.

Forgive me for being mercenary, here, but let me present the whole debate going on in my head in a cost/benefit scenario. Since my son is not going to Zephyrsville, the question is whether or not I should spend the $100 and take the time to change the pitching motion of my son and/or the other kids who might be pitching.

Costs vis a vis training my son:

(a) $100,

(b) probably about $1,000 taken away from my profession in trying to learn this stuff by viewing the video on my own (I won't count the time I take teaching him - as you say that's golden time),

(c) an incredible amount of aggravation from my kid, who doesn't like having to re-learn things he thinks he knows (the golden time of playing baseball with him is far better when we're playing catch while joking and taking it easy and whatever he's learning is coming from what he detects works for his body, rather than having me lecture him),

(d) likely deleterious impact on his hitting, because the time we can devote to pitching will come out of that,

(e) possible impact upon the more important part of his game -- infielding -- because his body will be developing a second throwing motion, and

(f) possible impact upon my marriage, when I try to explain to my wife (who already thinks I'm somehow trying to relive my childhood baseball glories through my son) that the tension with my son comes from trying to teach him a new pitching method, when there's no assurance he'll be pitching all that much.

Costs vis a vis training the other kids: Not applicable: because it isn't going to happen. Why? The serious pitching candidates on the team almost all have private pitching coaches they've used, along with Dads knowledgeable enough to think they know what a good pitching motion should be. Do I have the authority or credibility with their parents to override the coaching they've received in favor of a system I've never tried on the basis of a study of injuries to kids in Taiwan? No. Do I have time in any case to teach these kids a new system? Probably not; we'll start practicing about February 10th, and the season starts about March 3rd. And, this will be my son's last year at this level, so I won't be able to work with them longer. My credibility with the parents will be stretched as it is in trying to convert the kids to rotational hitting mechanics.

So, let's get to the benefits of teaching my son.

Safety? As I said, he will probably pitch maybe twenty innings this year. I doubt if he'll pitch at the next level up; if he does, it probably won't be more than 30 - 40 innings. He unfortunately is at the very young end of his league's age bracket and is slow to develop, so he will always lose innings to kids who are further along in their physical development. He likes the glamour and responsibility of pitching, but doesn't have the desire to get out and pitch regularly. Conversely, in light of the complexity of Dr. Marshall's system, it would seem to take him at least 80 innings worth of additional pitching practice -- much of it no doubt incorrectly -- to get him to the point where he can start to use the Doctor's system. At that point, he of course will start doing the actual pitching and incurs some additional risk of injury just from the act of throwing, even if just by tripping while on the way to the mound. ;) Unless you address the fact that 90 % of today's little leaguers do not throw the ball as much as I did in 1965, or Taiwanese little leaguers do today, your lectures about safety just sound shrill, particularly given that your own sons fortunately made it safely to the door of Marshall's system in apparent good health.

Better pitches?The league at this level does not let him throw any breaking pitches, so the Maxline curve ball and screwball are out, no matter how safe they may be to throw. So, the benefit will have to come from the speed of his fastball. My sense is that much of the ultimate increase in speed comes from the longer acceleration path allowed by the "reaching back" at the outset of the motion and the later release point, as well as the more efficient use of the upper body to contribute to the power of the throw. The problem is that he's skinny as a rail and has little upper body strength to contribute. I think his pretty good velocity now comes from a pretty efficient motion. So, he may pick up a few feet on his fastball for his twenty innings. Will that make for a better time for him this season? Maybe a little.

What we haven't discussed but which is crucial to this discussion is the following. Are there small, incremental changes that I can make to a conventional pitcher's motion to make him safer and perform better? As you see, it does not make sense for me to try to make my son or his teammates a full-blown Marshall-style pitcher. Look at it this way -- I cannot make my son or any of his teammates pure, skilled rotational style hitters. Nonetheless, I'm convinced that the more that I can get them to rely on the rotation of their hips and away from hitting with their arms, the more pop they'll have and the better time they'll have during the season, even if they fall short of perfection. Can I do likewise with their pitching -- give them the highlights of the system to tweak their motions to at least make them safer? If the Marshall system is all or nothing, by contrast, than the reality is that it will be nothing.

Coach, I've gone through this exercise to give you a sense of the battle you're facing by trying to proselytize the casual coach like me. I can't speak for higher level folks. But if you don't see the real obstacles you faced in trying to convince us to adopt the system, you're doomed to failure. Lure us in with small changes in techniques that will result in some tangible improvements. If the system doesn't allow for that, well, that's too bad. But someone's going to have to decide if the risk of teaching only a partial Marshall system is worth it given that otherwise kids will not get any of Marshall's teachings. That's the reality.

Remember, I'm not fighting you here. I'm really trying to help you guys get the message out so that (a) it can be truly tested for its benefits, and (b) your sons won't be considered oddballs when they enter the pitching world.

[pgibbons]

Ursa Major and Coach45, I was disappointed when this thread took a sour turn, but I admire the way you both got the discussion back on track.

Ursa Major made a great point when he said: "Can I do likewise with their pitching -- give them the highlights of the system to tweak their motions to at least make them safer? If the Marshall system is all or nothing, by contrast, than the reality is that it will be nothing."

I'm intrigued by Marshall's techniques and am wondering the same thing. Coach45, are there some small adjustments that I can make, to ease my way into the Marshall technique?

[Ohfor]

...

I believe the reason Prior blew out is because Pro-ball is a different world and most kids (and apparantly parents too) have no idea the wear and tear a full season of pro-ball has on your body. I happens to infielders, outfielders and all positions, not just pitchers. Why do you think pitchers are on such a strict pitch count these days? Clubs know that overuse, no matter how good the mechanics is a recipe for Surgery.

Prior blew out because his mechanics are very poor considering his level of play. He's a very linear pitcher and and his mechanics do not allow a "smooth" deceleration of the arm.

[Coach45]

Prior blew out because his mechanics are very poor considering his level of play. He's a very linear pitcher and and his mechanics do not allow a "smooth" deceleration of the arm.

Really? Tom House and others in pro ball, before Prior blew out his arm, described Prior's motion as 'Pitcher Perfect.' Will Carroll's book, Saving The Pitcher, talks about how Prior was never going to get hurt, because House designed and built his mechanics in a bio-lab. Deceleration of the arm in the traditional followthrough generally damages the posterior shoulder capsule. Prior blew out his UCL. Please tell us what you think ideal pitching mechanics look like and why. Tell us what you think ideal deceleration of the arm looks like. Tell us what you think a 'linear pitcher' is.

[Ohfor]

Really? Tom House and others in pro ball

That's your first mistake

before Prior blew out his arm, described Prior's motion as 'Pitcher Perfect.'

second mistake

Will Carroll's book, Saving The Pitcher, talks about how Prior was never going to get hurt, because House designed and built his mechanics in a bio-lab.

I guess reality has set in for Mr. Carroll

Deceleration of the arm in the traditional followthrough generally damages the posterior shoulder capsule. Prior blew out his UCL. Please tell us what you think ideal pitching mechanics look like and why. Tell us what you think ideal deceleration of the arm looks like. Tell us what you think a 'linear pitcher' is.

First of all, almost every mlb pitcher has had or will have an arm injury. Many have several. Just not realistic to expect anything different.

Secondly, when you stop shoulder and hip rotation prematurely to "fling" or "slingshot" your arm forward, rather than have rotation lead and power the arm you're asking for trouble. Suddenly changing what the body and arm are doing (midstream) is a recipe for trouble. Prior's rotation is incomplete. He is linear to the plate. He goes toward the plate instead of toward first base. His power comes from the rotation of his hips and shoulders yet his arm goes linear as he stops shoulder rotation to deliver to the plate. Therefore, at the end of his delivery, he goes against his power supply. Body wants everything to go one direction, he forces it to go another. Just asking for injury.

Another Tom House failure. Why anyone follows House is simply amazing. His writing does not stand up to video scrutiny and his track record with top pitchers is horrendous. He really helped Randy Johnson didn't he.

[BuzzBaseball]

I am very new to this website. There is an incredible amount of information here of which I am attempting to sift through. I have looked at the Dick Mills program, Ripken/Habyan dvd, Jeff Brantly dvd, Tom House Pitching Edge video and book and the entire Tom House NPA Pitching Development Series dvd's. There looks to me to be some good info in all of these.

I would like to know more about the Marshall system. If it is as good as some folks say then why not publish the information. Sell dvd's and books to explain and teach the system. At least House, Mills, Habyan, Brantley and many others make their teachings accessible to all and wide open to scrutiny. It would not take much to make a dvd available for sale to the public, God knows so many other pitching gurus have.

If the Marshall system was that good and it helped to prevent arm injury it would not be squashed by pitching coaches. I feel that it would most certainly be adopted and would spread throughout the baseball community rapidly. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the Marshall system may not hold up to scrutiny, has not produced any successful pitchers and be nothing more than talk. If it was a truly successful pitching method the developer would certainly be cashing in. Please don't say it's not about the money. It's always about the money...always.

How can a debate over the Marshall system continue? Nobody really knows what it is and Marshall won't go public with it. So, what's the big secret Dr. Marshall? Help us all understand what your methods are Dr. Marshall. I'll buy your dvd. Where do I send my $49.95?

[pgibbons]

Buzz, you can read everything Marshall has to say at his web-site:
http://www.drmikemarshall.com/

You can purchase his video there as well.

[BuzzBaseball]

thanks pgibbons, I'll check it out. I look forward to learning about Dr. Marshall's methods and ideas.

[Coach45]

[QUOTE=Ohfor]
First of all, almost every mlb pitcher has had or will have an arm injury. Many have several. Just not realistic to expect anything different.[QUOTE]

While you are correct about the injury scenario, the mentality that you have to accept the status quo is precisely what this debate is about. Dr. Marshall is doing something radically different than, shall we say, traditionalists. I have personal experience with his teaching and what he says is true. The fact that he has come up with a mechanic that, to date and to my personal knowledge, does not injure the arm also refutes what you say. My guys throw with max intensity every day, seven days per week and they keep getting stronger. My son has now been doing so since June 13, 2004. Every single day for almost eighteen months.

Maybe you would like me and one of my guys to put on a demonstration. Depending upon where you are I will do it on my dime. Better yet, let's do an independently monitored 30 day challenge. You choose the monitor. I will take my high school student, have him throw the equivalent of 150 pitchers per day, every day, including throwing an eight pound iron ball, with the same mechanics he uses to throw the baseball, a minimum of 48 reps per day. My guy will also, included in the above repetitions, execute his mechanics a minimum of 48 reps per day throwing 15 pound wrist weights (they stay attached to his wrists throughout acceleration and deceleration) with the same intensity he executes his full pitching mechanic. You will be required to have one of your pitchers do exactly the same thing with his pitching mechanic. Are you willing to accept the challenge? I already know that you would be insane to do so...the young man's family would sue you.

Yet this is precisely what the high school pitcher I am training does every morning, seven days per week. We train from 6:30-7:45 a.m. each and every day. Last summer this young man won a State Legion championship game. The teams he competed against will be next years varsity squads, so I can already tell you it works. Like I said, I have personal experience, not simply relying on what someone else says. So, fire away with your questions.

[QUOTE=Ohfor] Secondly, when you stop shoulder and hip rotation prematurely to "fling" or "slingshot" your arm forward, rather than have rotation lead and power the arm you're asking for trouble. Suddenly changing what the body and arm are doing (midstream) is a recipe for trouble. Prior's rotation is incomplete. He is linear to the plate. He goes toward the plate instead of toward first base. His power comes from the rotation of his hips and shoulders yet his arm goes linear as he stops shoulder rotation to deliver to the plate. Therefore, at the end of his delivery, he goes against his power supply. Body wants everything to go one direction, he forces it to go another. Just asking for injury.[QUOTE]

If you take energy away from driving toward home plate you will diminish velocity. Taking the body and throwing arm to the first base side of the plate, after pitch release (i.e. what we have traditionally called followthrough) is precisely what eventually damages the back of the shoulder and is how most pitchers throw. Mr. Prior's body and arm, like everyone else, 'wants' to head toward the first base side after release (for righthanders) because he is responding to centrifugal force generated when his arm is slung away from his body toward the third base side. That he counteracts this force helps accout for his high release velocities.

Do you realize that what you advocated above is precisely one component of what Dr. Marshall teaches? You are on the right track with your thinking, but no pitcher using traditional mechanics can achieve this. They do precisely the opposite. You can tell them to do it, but anatomically they cannot. Again, I have personal, real world experience with this and know you cannot prove to me otherwise. It is impossible. That's what part of this debate is about.

However, the mechanism you describe did not injure Mr. Prior, who suffered a torn UCL. Video, unless it's high speed and undoctored by software, does not show you what the arm truly does. At 30 frames per second you cannot see events that take .02 seconds (the time it takes to go through the acceleration phase of traditional pitching). Thirty FPS equals one frame every .03 seconds. You are lucky to record anything more than a blur of the arm through acceleration. Video, unless it's high speed and undoctored by transitioning software cannot show you what actually happens. Have you ever seen 500 FPS high speed film of pitching mechanics? I have, courtesy of Dr. Marshall, and so can you. The newest video release he is putting out will put a lot of these questions to bed.

I agree that Tom House's track record is horrendous. He may be a fine man, but at least some of his clients are getting hurt.

[Ohfor]

Let's just be real clear.

Mike Marshall is a quack. No other way of saying it.

A quack who happens to have played at the mlb level AND has a degree or two.

But there is no doubt about it........he's a quack.

[Coach45]

I would like to know more about the Marshall system. If it is as good as some folks say then why not publish the information.

Dr. Marshall has a new video coming out soon. His material has been on the web for about five years; that's how I found out about him. His online book is free. You will have to work hard to understand it. I've had a lot of fun in the process. I have sent him well over 150 questions online, and he has always been more than helpful. He has also always returned my phone calls.

If the Marshall system was that good and it helped to prevent arm injury it would not be squashed by pitching coaches. I feel that it would most certainly be adopted and would spread throughout the baseball community rapidly.

You hypothetical seems good on the surface and I also thought that reasonable people would take this discussion seriously and do their homework. From personal experience I can tell you that it it not working that way. In essence Dr. Marshall is telling everyone in baseball that the way we pitch baseballs is biomechanically wrong and that pitching injuries are caused by the mechanics themselves. Do you think this is popular? This poses a very real threat to guys who would like to keep their job and have represented that they know what they're doing. The very worst behavior I have witnessed regarding this discussion has always come from people who think they know something about baseball, whether they do or do not, coaches in particular. It is human nature to be threated by change.

I coach and am actively teaching these mechanics. They work, and a whole lot better than the traditional way. Huge variety of pitches; quicker time to the plate; closer release to the plate; ability to train every day; and yes, freedom from injury just like Dr. Marshall claims. We will find out about the long haul, but Dr. Marshall used this training regimen to win a Cy Young and used it to continued to pitch for several decades. What he is teaching now is vastly superior to what he had learned during his MLB career. I am personally aware of one player who threw in MLB for two years with a variant of these mechanics. One college coach, trained by Marshall, won a national collegiate championship several years ago and his staff was injury free. Dr. Marshall has told me personally that a MLB representative approached this individual and asked for the training regimen. When this person was told that Marshall was the author the conversation ended. Dr. Marshall never received a followup call. Guys, we're not talking hypotheticals.

How can a debate over the Marshall system continue? Nobody really knows what it is and Marshall won't go public with it. So, what's the big secret Dr. Marshall? Help us all understand what your methods are Dr. Marshall. I'll buy your dvd. Where do I send my $49.95?

The fact that I know about Dr. Marshall and what he is doing completely refutes your claim. It is no secret. I spent a huge amount of time learning about this and it's worth the effort. If we maintain a fast food mentality we never have the opportunity to learn. Dr. Marshall's newest video, coming out soon, will cost $100.00 (except for guys like me who purchased the older version...my upgrade will cost $25.00). If you really want to learn Dr. Marshall will help you.

[Coach45]

Let's just be real clear. Mike Marshall is a quack. No other way of saying it. A quack who happens to have played at the mlb level AND has a degree or two. But there is no doubt about it........he's a quack.

You're welcome to your opinion. I offer you the same challenge that I put out to another gentleman:

Maybe you would like me and one of my guys to put on a demonstration. Depending upon where you are I will do it on my dime. Better yet, let's do an independently monitored 30 day challenge. You choose the monitor. I will take my high school student, have him throw the equivalent of 150 pitchers per day, every day, including throwing an eight pound iron ball, with the same mechanics he uses to throw the baseball, a minimum of 48 reps per day. My guy will also, included in the above repetitions, execute his mechanics a minimum of 48 reps per day throwing 15 pound wrist weights (they stay attached to his wrists throughout acceleration and deceleration) with the same intensity he executes his full pitching mechanic. You will be required to have one of your pitchers do exactly the same thing with his pitching mechanic. Are you willing to accept?

Please, won't someone take me up on one of these two options? I'm dead serious that we will show up, either way. Doesn't this tell you something? Instead of making snide remarks, why don't you set out to prove the Dr. Marshall is wrong? It's apparently easier to fire cheap shots from the bench.

Edit to my post: Whoa Nelly. I just discovered that the guy I'm replying to is the same guy who I offered the challenge to first. The challenge stands, and I guess we know where he stands too. Bummer.

[hiddengem]

Let's just be real clear.

Mike Marshall is a quack. No other way of saying it.

A quack who happens to have played at the mlb level AND has a degree or two.

But there is no doubt about it........he's a quack.

Who are you? Do you have some personal experience with Mike that you could enlighten us with, that would prove he is a quack?

[Ohfor]

Maybe you would like me and one of my guys to put on a demonstration. Depending upon where you are I will do it on my dime. Better yet, let's do an independently monitored 30 day challenge. You choose the monitor. I will take my high school student, have him throw the equivalent of 150 pitchers per day, every day, including throwing an eight pound iron ball, with the same mechanics he uses to throw the baseball, a minimum of 48 reps per day. My guy will also, included in the above repetitions, execute his mechanics a minimum of 48 reps per day throwing 15 pound wrist weights (they stay attached to his wrists throughout acceleration and deceleration) with the same intensity he executes his full pitching mechanic. You will be required to have one of your pitchers do exactly the same thing with his pitching mechanic. Are you willing to accept?



No. Not willing to accept. I'd rather concentrate on proper throwing mechanics.

BTW, can you give me a name of a Mike Marshall student who has had more than one year in the big leagues?

Walks like a duck.......quacks like a duck......he's not a duck....... but he is a quack.

[Coach45]

No. Not willing to accept. I'd rather concentrate on proper throwing mechanics.

BTW, can you give me a name of a Mike Marshall student who has had more than one year in the big leagues?

Walks like a duck.......quacks like a duck......he's not a duck....... but he is a quack.

1. You mean you don't even want to see it? I offered the opportunity. Wow.

2. Yes, I'm capable, and no I won't, because it would betray a trust.

I think you should answer hiddengem's questions. HG, I'm kinda thinking that Ohfor is code for '0 for four,' as in batting average. What think? But, maybe he thinks you're a duck too. If so, count me as part of the flock.

Ohfor, on another thread this is how you responded to another question I asked you for your qualifications and expertise on this subject. Now you have an opportunity to explain yourself.

Qualifications? I'm entitled to my opinion just like your are.

Study video. What you see from the very best pitchers on earth is no where close to what Marshall promotes.

What every parent in the country should know is the difference between salesmanship and real knowledge of the subject matter.

Marshall has a degree. He pitched in mlb baseball. Yet, nothing he promotes stands up to video scrutiny.

His arm training methods are interesting but way out there.

What I have that apparently you don't is the ability to compare what all the pitching gurus say to video. Very few stand up.

But, they have a resume.

Parents........listen to what they say. Always avoid the resume.

Apparently you have seen and understand what Marshall is doing, otherwise how could you say this? How do you know that his guys don't 'stand up to video scrutiny.' Please, by all means share with us what you know about the subject so we can all learn. What exactly do anatomically correct, biomechanically sound, high velocity pitching pitching mechanics look like?

I am much more comfortable going to a licensed practicing physician when I need medical care. If I needed highly advanced care for something I would probably look at the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, or some such facility. Their doctors have resumes. Long ones. What doctor would you choose?

[Coach45]

It's not now, or ever, about 'right.' It's about 'better.'

[Ohfor]

You and all the others are just one big experiment for the quack.

Pretty hard for anyone to say he's wrong when he can't/won't show what's right. All he says is no one does it right.

Protecting his mental instability.

[Ohfor]

2. Yes, I'm capable, and no I won't, because it would betray a trust.



It's OK. I know the secret handshake.

Palease... Do you read what you write???

[chisox2k5]

Coach45,

Were you serious about the 150 pitches a day for 30 days? And the 8 pound ball?

My arm hurts just thinking about that..

[Coach45]

Coach45,

Were you serious about the 150 pitches a day for 30 days? And the 8 pound ball?

My arm hurts just thinking about that..


Chisox,

I'm completely serious. My son, training with Marshall, has done that and a whole lot more. Every day. Seven days per week since June 13, 2004. The high schooler I'm training also does this every day. Seven days per week. I can probably arrange for you to talk with either of them.

You understand that if you threw a heavy ball you would hurt your arm. In truth, if you threw one day with this regimen using traditional mechanics you would permanently main your arm. The point is, these guys are doing this (and can do this) because there is yet another way to throw beyond what you have ever seen.

Dr. Marshall threw very heavy iron balls (even bowling balls) every day for many, many years. He threw 35 pound wrist weights every day. The wrist weights stay attached, even after you 'throw' them. He did it for years. People pass him off as a 'freak' because of what this training did to his body. He's no freak. His training works, and this man is exceptionally smart. I've done these drills myself.

Is Dr. Marshall's way the very best way to throw that mankind will ever know? From the injury standpoint it's far superior to anything else out there now. His guys also throw a vastly superior variety of pitches, release the ball closer to home plate (like moving the mound closer to the plate), increase their release velocities, have quicker times to the plate than a traditional slide step, can do it every day, and aren't getting hurt. The list goes on. Guys, these are facts. Facts are things that you can look at and say, 'yep, that's exactly what he does.' If you ask me for the proof I will provide it.

Chi, you will note that guys like Ohfor cannot refute what we are doing. All he can do is call names and he refuses to even take a serious look at what we are doing (though he pretends that he already did), even when I offered to help him. Do you think that's a smart way to make decisions? Then I give him a challenge and he backs away. What do you, personally, label someone who acts like this? I already know and I already know that you know so we don't need to talk about it. Who is giving you information that you can think seriously about, him or me? I will answer every question, and if I don't know the answer I'll go look for it. Sometimes there are issues of privacy and the only answer correct answer is 'I won't tell you.' You can see that Ohfor hasn't answered any of my questions. If we were in a moderated debate who do you think would be winning?

I've done my homework. If you do yours, deciding in advance that you want to know the truth of the matter (sometimes truth is not popular and it is nonetheless true), if you work hard you will find the answers. Notice that I keep asking for someone to give me evidence that what Dr. Marshall is doing does not work. If it doesn't work, why can my son throw a twelve pound iron ball 96 reps per day, throw 20 pound wrist weights another 48 reps, do some other excercises as well, and then throw at least 50-75 pitches, as hard as he can? That's exactly what he did already today. And then he'll lift tonight after work. And he'll do it tomorrow, and the next day, and the next. He's already done this for eighteen months. Because he can. With lighter weights the same goes for the high schooler I am training. Is there something about this you don't understand?

Keep the questions coming.

[BuzzBaseball]

Dr. Marshall has a new video coming out soon. His material has been on the web for about five years; that's how I found out about him. His online book is free. You will have to work hard to understand it. I've had a lot of fun in the process. I have sent him well over 150 questions online, and he has always been more than helpful. He has also always returned my phone calls.



You hypothetical seems good on the surface and I also thought that reasonable people would take this discussion seriously and do their homework. From personal experience I can tell you that it it not working that way. In essence Dr. Marshall is telling everyone in baseball that the way we pitch baseballs is biomechanically wrong and that pitching injuries are caused by the mechanics themselves. Do you think this is popular? This poses a very real threat to guys who would like to keep their job and have represented that they know what they're doing. The very worst behavior I have witnessed regarding this discussion has always come from people who think they know something about baseball, whether they do or do not, coaches in particular. It is human nature to be threated by change.

I coach and am actively teaching these mechanics. They work, and a whole lot better than the traditional way. Huge variety of pitches; quicker time to the plate; closer release to the plate; ability to train every day; and yes, freedom from injury just like Dr. Marshall claims. We will find out about the long haul, but Dr. Marshall used this training regimen to win a Cy Young and used it to continued to pitch for several decades. What he is teaching now is vastly superior to what he had learned during his MLB career. I am personally aware of one player who threw in MLB for two years with a variant of these mechanics. One college coach, trained by Marshall, won a national collegiate championship several years ago and his staff was injury free. Dr. Marshall has told me personally that a MLB representative approached this individual and asked for the training regimen. When this person was told that Marshall was the author the conversation ended. Dr. Marshall never received a followup call. Guys, we're not talking hypotheticals.



The fact that I know about Dr. Marshall and what he is doing completely refutes your claim. It is no secret. I spent a huge amount of time learning about this and it's worth the effort. If we maintain a fast food mentality we never have the opportunity to learn. Dr. Marshall's newest video, coming out soon, will cost $100.00 (except for guys like me who purchased the older version...my upgrade will cost $25.00). If you really want to learn Dr. Marshall will help you.

coach45, like I mentioned before, if Dr. Marshall's methodology really works, really lets you throw 150 pitches a day, lets you throw screwballs, and sliders everyday without injury this system would spread like wildfire and Dr. Marshall would be a wealthy man. Baseball is a business, and if there is a good product introduced into the baseball market it will gain popularity, be accepted and sell just like a good, high quality product in any market.

There are no major leaguers using the system, you mentioned one college program using it years ago (what college was that?), not one pitching coach of any notariety is teaching it. You say the Marshall methods are not adopted because the establishment is afraid of change and fears for their jobs. Well if Marshall's ideas and methods are as good as you say they are there would be more than a few "maverick" pitching coaches that would adopt these methods and teach them. With all of the youth, community college, 4yr college Div I, IAA, II, III, minor league, independent league and the MLB programs out there, I just have to believe that at least a couple of handfuls of pitching coaches would use Marshall's sytem. But they're not.....

While Marshall's system is not a total secret, it's pretty close to one. That's what usually happens to bad products in the marketplace. I'm not saying that Marshall's methods are a "bad product" but for such a wonderful product, as you claim, it sure does not enjoy widespread market success as good products usually do.

[pgibbons]

Baseball is a business, and if there is a good product introduced into the baseball market it will gain popularity, be accepted and sell just like a good, high quality product in any market.

Buzz, I like the way you think but unfortunately there is not a causal relationship (if A happens then B will happen) with the example mentioned above.

In fact in areas where there is a high barrier to entry (such as learning a new pitching motion and trying to change 150 years of conventional wisdom), people will more often stick with what they know even if they're aware of something that might be better. (I have no idea if Marshall's techniques are better) I'm sure you've heard the phrase "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know"

I could give some examples, but I don't want to sound like too much of a know-it-all (hopefully it's not too late for that :noidea )

[Ohfor]

Marshall is a deceitful preying mantis. He preys on those players that are "not quite there". His clientele is the kid who really wants it but hasn't got it....and won't have it. He tells them he can make a difference. They make an emotional decision that this guy can help. (because they really have no other option) Then he leads them into his experiment.

Every now and then he gets a sucker with talent. So, now he can say....."look what I did".

The guy is a certified quack. His system is "mysterious" only because he won't reveal it. He protects himself by saying everyone else is wrong but offers nothing when asked how to do it. First you have to buck up.

Use your head people. Baseball has been played for over 100 years. The body has had arms forever. Now, Quack Marshall says there is a new way of doing it.

OK.....he's "out of the box". Nothing wrong with out of the box. But, show me the results. He has none.

He is so preoccupied with injury prevention that he also PREVENTS PERFORMANCE. The only pitcher who doesn't have an arm injury is the guy who wasn't good enough to play at a high level so he quit. That brings a smile to Marshall's face. He can say....."see, I helped another one."

Get use to it. Accept it. As long as there is baseball, with players trying to be the best they can be, there will be arm injuries. The good news is the advancements in repair work are significant.

Now that is the certified truth.

And, finally, Coach45, why don't you post a clip of your son or the high schooler you are working with. I'll analyze their mechanics and we can debate.

As far as me accepting your challenge, as I said before, I prefer to spend my time on baseball.

[Coach45]

Buzz, I'll get back to you. Gotta get to work. Like PG says, there's no casual relationship. You forget, I'm actually doing this and am seeing firsthand how the ideas are received. Not well, and for the wrong reasons. In general it's about pride and ego.

Ohfor, You seem to want a battle of wits. Sorry, I won't fight with an unarmed man. It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. I'm not wasting more time with you. While you're out running your mouth I'm proving, a day at a time, that you're wrong. Go read everything I have posted on this site in the past week since I joined. Answers to every single 'question' you supposedly want to know are there.

Buzz, What Ohfor is doing here is pretty typical of how this has been received. In honesty I feel badly for him. I've let this exchange go on for a while to prove exactly the point about how ideas are received. It's all right there for you and everyone else to read. Go back and look at what Ohfor has written. I've had this exchange, with variations, literally hundreds of times, and this reflects exactly what PG has written. Have you seen any legitimatimacy in Ohfor's approach? What evidence has he provided? He wants to see video of my son. I would like to know what qualifies him or gives him the expertise to dissect what my son is doing. He has no clue what he is looking for in a biomechanical realm, but is willing to tear someone apart over what he thinks he knows? Why should I post it? Provide me with compelling reason to do so and I will seriously consider it. By the way, I have a video dub of high speed film of my son throwing with Marshall's mechanics. I'm having this tape converted for computer use, so I have the ability to show more recent stuff. Someone's going to have to give me a darn good reason to release what is essentially personal info. Make a compelling case and I will consider it.

[hiddengem]

And, finally, Coach45, why don't you post a clip of your son or the high schooler you are working with. I'll analyze their mechanics and we can debate.


Why don't you put your money where you mouth is and tell the crowd what credentials you have to be able "analyze" somebody's mechanics and give feedback?

If you can prove to us that you have experience at at high level (not high school) either piching or coaching, then there might be somebody willing to listen to you. Other than that save your baseless remarks for a different sight.

I'm not saying that Dr. Marshall is a savior, but I have zero first hand experience with him and I truely don't know anything about him, so why would I bash him or praise him?
Unless you have first hand experience with him, you should feel the same.

[Razor]

I like to check out the credentials of the teacher before handing over a young fellow for him to work on/with. The question I would ask any coach is this "who have you taught and where are they at"?

[Ohfor]

Coach45 doesn't want to debate because some things are just not winnable.

Here are some statements from his favorite quack. Who, by the way, does not have a Phd in biomechanics or kinesiology. He has a Phd in physical education.

Mr. Marshall suffers from the paranoia that manifests itself in statements such as:

Because he is less likely to completely destroy the pitching arms of his pitchers, I think that Mr. Strom plagiarizes my theories.

I teach straight-line force application. Tom House and the other plagiarists now teach directionality. I teach maximally lengthening the driveline. Tom House and the other plagiarists now teach release your pitches closer to home plate.

All pitching coaches, except me, are plagiarists. They are happy to steal ideas and claim them as their own.

As a research scientist, I hate plagiarists. However, as someone devoted to eliminating pitching arm injuries, I wish every baseball pitching coach would steal everything I teach.

I like that Mr. Strom plagiarizes my theories.

I have absolutely no doubt that I am the best closer in the history of baseball.

I hope that I only rip apart the phony pitching coach wannabes, never sincere, thoughtful insights and questions.

If he continues to use the Tom House pitching motion, no training program will ever protect his pitching arm.

Dick Mills has no idea what he is talking about. You wasted whatever you paid for his video.

Mr. Nyman destroys pitching arms.

I took a pitcher to tryout for the Washington Nationals this past spring. My guy threw brilliantly, but Brent Strom said that they had a numbers problem and could not sign him. Then, he asked me how I released my Maxline Pronation Curve. After I used my Wrong Foot body action, Swing-to-Ready Glove and Pitching Arms action drill to throw two perfect spin axis and perfectly located curves, he walked off without another word.

Why else do you think that Tom House, Dick Mills, Paul Nyman, Glenn Fleisig and all other baseball pitching coach wannabes decline invitations to debate the proper mechanics of baseball pitching with me?

Mount Everest is a mole hill compared to the wall of ignorance in professional baseball. Yesterday, at a professional baseball team tryout, after one pitch, a pitching coach stopped my most talented, major-league-experienced pitcher and spent five minutes telling him how he had to change his pitching motion. Then, when he refused, he ignored him and did not choose him to stay and pitch against hitters. Unfortunately, I was meeting with someone elsewhere at that time or I would have verbally taken that jackass apart.

I have talked about the prejudice against the one pitcher before. He is the guy who, in his first twelve games in 2000 with the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, had a one point five earned run average. Then, after a sportswriter wrote how he was the next great pitcher and included that I trained him, they did not pitch him and messed with him until his earned run average increased to three point five and then, they released him.

I receive the same treatment from the pitching coaches with all professional teams.

No, all major league pitching coaches are about equally unenlightened. Mr. Rothchild is only a little worse than the rest.

I wonder if I did my player representative job too well and it was not the players who did not want me around? I know that the Dodgers were not too happy with me when I showed Andy Messersmith how to become a free agent and helped him to do so. I know that, in 1979, the Twins were not too happy when they found out that I was the player representative who suggested to strike the last week of spring training and set the Memorial Day strike date. These are only a few things that I did as player representative that the teams might not have liked. Yet despite, all the interruptions in my pitching career, I did well. I wonder how well I could have done had I stayed with one team and manager for ten years?

That professional and college pitching coaches have no idea what they are doing and teach the 'traditional' pitching motion out of ignorance and laziness should remain their problem, not your son's.


I work with high school graduates without college baseball scholarship offers, college baseball pitchers who cannot make their team and injured baseball pitchers who cannot pitch anymore. Despite their inadequacies, I have trained several pitchers how to increased their release velocity to the mid-nineties. Unfortunately, when their pitching coaches get hold of them, they change how they throw and they not only lose their velocity, but they injure their pitching arms.

Before you let their pitching coaches destroy your son's pitching arm, you and he should make a trip to my Pitching Research/Training Center in Zephyrhills, FL and learn what he should do before he even thinks about a professional career.

[BuzzBaseball]

coach45, I don't want to see your son's video. You're right, it's personal and I respect that. I want to read about Dr. Marshall's accomplishments and how his injury saving and highly effective methods have produced successful and injury free MLB pitchers, how at least a handful pitching coaches from the majors on down have adopted these effective and arm saving methods and are teaching them. What college program has adopted Marshall's methods? Like I said before, with the thousands of baseball teams at all levels and thousands of pitching coaches out there, surely, at least, a small percentage would be using the Marshall techniques and the success stories would be getting out to the baseball public. None of this is happening. There is no way that a system/methods as successful as you have described could be kept from public acceptance by the so called baseball establishment.

Even if making profit from this is taken away. People want to be successful and if this system is as good as you say it is more and more pitching coaches would be teaching it and pitchers would be demanding it. Not happening.

[Ohfor]

As for the credentials comments from the rest of you, I addressed this earlier. I don't care who you're listening to, compare what they say to video.

You'll find only a couple of the pitching gurus are supported by video.

Of course, if they don't stand the video test, they'll attack the video. "Not enough frames per second." they say. As if there is a right amount of frames.

Just like Coach45 now. He prefers to attack me when he can't counter my ideas or thoughts on Marshall.

Video please, Mr. Coach45. Then and only then can we discuss the facts of the delivery.

I don't know how to post video. If someone does, I'll surely let you know what I know. Could be a very interesting discussion.

Now we'll find out who's afraid.

BTW, I mean video of throwing. Not some workout training video of guys throwing toilets or 50 lb. boulders. And I'm a believer in weighted balls.

[Razor]

...........

[Coach45]

I like to check out the credentials of the teacher before handing over a young fellow for him to work on/with. The question I would ask any coach is this "who have you taught and where are they at"?

There's at least one more question you should put on the list. 'Have any of your trainees been injured, and why.' Clue: if you read the Dr. Joel Adams study recap that I posted earlier on this thread and fill in the blank: _____% of kids with growth plate issues in the elbow do not even complain of pain, and yet X-rays reveal the damage.

But to answer your questions, even though they weren't really addressed to me, since I teach pitching, I have worked short-term with many high school pitchers. I do not consider that I have trained any of them. Training is a long-term proposition. I have worked long-term to train two pitchers. One was drafted and the other pitched and won a State Legion Champiohsip this summer. He's a HS senior this year. And no, neither of them has been injured.

I'm only one guy so the sample size is obviously small.

[Ohfor]

Coach

Please ID this.....

http://www.SETPRO.com/PPV/marshall2a.wmv

I'm sure the others would like to know what the hell it is.

No one under 18 should view this.

[Ursa Major]

OhFor, I've got only one thing to say after seeing that video...

O
M
F
G
:( :evil :( !!!!!!!

I've always wondered what Marshall's approach looked like and that is worse than I could have imagined. The kids at the end didn't look too bad, but the violence with which they use all their arms to whip the ball is worrisome.

I need a drink... :coffee

[Coach45]

Coach
Please ID this.....

http://www.SETPRO.com/PPV/marshall2a.wmv

I'm sure the others would like to know what the hell it is.
No one under 18 should view this.

Ohfor,

Though I have never seen this video before I am positive that it is a very early version of what Dr. Marshall is teaching. Though the download file is extremely low quality and the sound does not snyc properly, and even though the 15 MB file took more than an hour for me to download (I do not have a high speed connection), I can clearly see and recognize specific drills that have been instrumental to the development of what Dr. Marshall teaches. Primarily I watched guys throwing the iron ball. Of note, I saw only a few specific repetitions, of any drill, performed in a remotely skillful way, and those were performed by a gentleman who threw this way in the major leagues. Techniques have changed and the way guys execute this now only remotely resembles what I saw on this video. I would not accept the technique and/or proficiency that you see in this video from the high schooler I currently train; he would be horrified if he threw so poorly. Such is the price of progress. As I watched this video I was reminded of early film of the Wright Brothers pioneering flights at Kittyhawk. When you compare high performance aircraft of today with those early images you realize how far things have come.

Before I give you more on this there's a matter of business to attend to. You seem intent on digging up whatever you possibly can to discredit what Dr. Marshall is doing, regardless of the tactic. Your motive is crystal clear. I suspect you would have been one of the guys at Kittyhawk looking on and mocking. This video is real. It's out there for the world to see. You have no clue how hard these young men worked, day after day, to set the stage for what is happening today. So you reveal your condescending self for what it is. I actually feel sorry for you and am simultaneously conflicted because I'd like to destroy what you represent. You hide behind the anonymity of the web, spouting indefensible crap. You level charges and accusations when you have not personal knowledge. I believe you are acting like a miserable, cowardly excuse for a man. You don't even appear to have the guts to try and learn something. Those are my opinions, though I wish you would prove me wrong. But, like I have told my sons time and again, the best revenge is to live well, so I will dispense with this. (web-meister, if you are monitoring this I ask that you please allow me to post my comments)

As I looked at the video in the link you supplied I can clearly see the learning curve that Dr. Marshall has gone though and, consequently, the learning curve of former students. Working to perfect the pedagogy for teaching this pitching motion has taken somewhere in the neighborhood of three decades. You forget or conveniently ignore that he won the Cy Young using the arm action that you see represented (poorly) here. So far as I know Dr. Marshall is the only pitching coach in the world who has looked at the injury scenario and, instead of accepting it, spent the remainder of his life's work trying to find a real-life solution to the problem. And yet all you can do is rip him. If his pitching mechanic, as he conceives of it, is not the end-all answer, so what? Time and ingenuity always have a way of improving on most anything. (Except mousetraps, maybe.) However, to date, I know with absolute certaintly how many high intensity reps my son and some other young men throw every day. The quality of pitches they throw is superb, when they get it right, and they're getting it right more and more of the time. And yes, for the genetically gifted velocities are as good as anything in major league baseball. And they are not tearing their arms up at the same frenetic rates you see at every level of baseball.

I offered you a challenge. You hid. I offer you the same challenge again. What are you going to do? Maybe you'd like to stand in the batter's box while my boy throws? You sound pretty high and mighty putting out your little hitting challenge yet you run and hide from mine? As surely as I write this your character will be revealed for everyone to see. And you think you're anonymous. Are you going to buck up like a man or are you going to whine that I'm attacking you?

Note: Some of you have seen a small, imperfect snippet of what this pitching motion starts to look like. Guys, you know whom I'm talking to. Within the bounds of the privacy issues you agreed to, I'd appreciate a little help here. You are free to write about what you have seen. I encourage you to express your opinions: are you at all intrigued? If you don't wish to chime in I will absolutely understand. I had hoped to supply more recent footage to you before I posted something like this, but I'm sick and tired of reading crap.

[Ohfor]

Five paragraphs?

Mostly criticizing me.

Not much about the video.

Then a "call for help".:D

He really is hard to defend isn't he.

[hiddengem]

Five paragraphs?

Mostly criticizing me.

Not much about the video.

Then a "call for help".:D

He really is hard to defend isn't he.

Ohfor...you really need to check yourself...If I were you I would be completely embarrassed of myself.
You have completely convinced me and probably many other people that are nothing but a spinless follower that wants nothing more than for somebody to think you know what you are talking about.

I see you lurking around the "other" hitting website. But you are too scared to write anything. Your afraid you might embarrass yourself because in all actuality you don't have a clue.

You haven't tried to teach me or anybody on this sight anything. All you have done and do is attack others ways of thinking because you have been brainwashed into thinking you have it figured out. Grow a spine and form your own opinions.

[wogdoggy]

oh for why dont you just sign on as mark H?

[Ohfor]

Ohfor...you really need to check yourself...If I were you I would be completely embarrassed of myself.
You have completely convinced me and probably many other people that are nothing but a spinless follower that wants nothing more than for somebody to think you know what you are talking about.

I see you lurking around the "other" hitting website. But you are too scared to write anything. Your afraid you might embarrass yourself because in all actuality you don't have a clue.

You haven't tried to teach me or anybody on this sight anything. All you have done and do is attack others ways of thinking because you have been brainwashed into thinking you have it figured out. Grow a spine and form your own opinions.

The topic is not me.

The topic is the video clip.

[hiddengem]

The topic is not me.

The topic is the video clip.

Who cares about the video clip. You have no idea what they are doing in the clip or why they are doing it. All you know is that its something you have never seen before, and since you know everything it must be wrong.

Until you have actually researched and gone through a program with Marshall, how can you badger him and say what he does doesn't have any merit? That just tells me that you are insecure with what you believe, because you can't actually allow yourself to look at a different perspective and have to admit you might learn somthing new.

This whole talk about Using hands in hitting...I'm doing my research by asking people that have been there and done that. Bonds, Gwynn, Gaetti,ect. If they tell me its not important I'll listen, not to somebody that looks a video and then makes a claim.

[Coach45]

The topic is not me.

The topic is the video clip.

Ohfor, I'll bite one last time. What is it you want to know, specifically, about the outdated clip of guys working on Marshall's drills? I covered quite a lot of territory the last time if you go back and read it again. Ask about something, anything, specific that I didnt cover and I will provide you a detailed answer.

Come on, ask an intelligent question.

[wogdoggy]

Mark H or ofor posts on other boards as well? whenever he gets backed into a corner instead of answering he says is that how they do it in frame by frame video clips,theen in his lil arrogant way tells the other posters to KEEP READING.he is so caught up in nyman its a joke.NYMAN? who is nyman and woolforth a guy with a medicine ball and backtraining exercises that have been used since the russians have been dominating olympic weightlifting.he is definately trying to compensate for something,but i will leave that up to your imagination.:gt :p

[Ohfor]

All I asked was....

Coach

Please ID this.....

http://www.SETPRO.com/PPV/marshall2a.wmv

I'm sure the others would like to know what the hell it is.



And you went off on me. I've reread your post. Lots about me. Nothing about what they're doing.

[pgibbons]

No doubt, those exercises look weird. However, it looks like they're a demonstration of some particular movement and are taken out of context. Every baseball training video I own has exercises in it that, when taken out of context, look odd.

[Coach45]

All I asked was....

And you went off on me. I've reread your post. Lots about me. Nothing about what they're doing.

Ohfor, questions typically have question marks behind them. Are you ever going to ask me a question? I am waiting eagerly to answer, I hope, at least one. What do you want to know about the video?

[hiddengem]

Mark H or ofor posts on other boards as well? whenever he gets backed into a corner instead of answering he says is that how they do it in frame by frame video clips,theen in his lil arrogant way tells the other posters to KEEP READING.he is so caught up in nyman its a joke.NYMAN? who is nyman and woolforth a guy with a medicine ball and backtraining exercises that have been used since the russians have been dominating olympic weightlifting.he is definately trying to compensate for something,but i will leave that up to your imagination.:gt :p

This is absolutely hilarious to me. I'm over this guy.

[Ursa Major]

Coach, thanks for the further information on that clip. It's good to know that Marshall's not currently teaching that way. But still, it would be nice if he had some sample clips available to show others what he's doing now. Mankin does for hitting on his site; I don't think Nyman does, but he does supply some amazing skeletal reconstruction videos that are useful in their own way.

I had to go back and review the video to the end to realize that the audio was out of sync. I figured Marshall was off his rocker on some of his comments, praising kids for what obviously was some pretty horrendous looking throws.

Still, I'm curious as to how all that shoulder and arm snap -- that seems ill-supported by the body when compared to conventional throwing -- should be safer for the shoulder and elbow. The way the throwing side scapula has to load up and then come forward after the front shoulder has made most of its turn seems scary to me.

[XFactor]

"Why else do you think that Tom House, Dick Mills, Paul Nyman, Glenn Fleisig and all other baseball pitching coach wannabes decline invitations to debate the proper mechanics of baseball pitching with me?"

Well I don't know the guy, but from all the stuff I have read about him via this thread, he seems like it's either his way and all other ways are well... pathetic. That may be a reason why none of the other people want to discuss mechanics and what not about him.

[Jake Patterson]

As I have told several of you, I have been coaching for twenty years and have never felt good about the way we conventionally teach pitching. In trying to keep an open mind about new ideas I have spent considerable time reading Dr. Marshall's approach. His research seems sound and I agree with his analysis, especially as it applies to younger players. The question is Now What?

I sent a video clip of one of my better 2004 pitchers to C45 for analysis and he beat it up pretty good. I have been with this young man for a while. He is only 5'6", 135 lbs and became a Southeast New England All-Star (One of the best pitchers in a pretty good league - NEPSAA). I felt pretty good about getting him to that point without injuring him. Many of my former players have moved on to successful college careers and while I felt good about that I never felt good about the way I taught pitching.

Well back to the clip.... After C45 analyzed the clip I sat with my assistant coach, a physical thearapist and reveiwed C45's comments slide by slide. After going through the clip several times I now agree with him and feel my ability to create good pitchers without injury has been more due to luck than good sound mechanics. The question still begs, Now What?

I contacted Dr. Marshall and he has agreed to send my his new video upon completion.
If any one wants to see the clip I have... email me at pattersonsports@yahoo.com and I will send it. It will at least give us something to look at.

"He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn"

[Robeckert]

I have really enjoyed the passionate and the often-eloquent comments in this thread. The question: "Does Dick Mills really know what he is talking about"?... has grown to include most of the renowned on-line pitching instructors in the country. As most of these teachers have a program and therefore a following, we can understand, that strong opinions can be devoted to subjects’ like-
How best to train to avoid arm injury-
How best to increase velocity-
How best to approach the mental part of pitching-etc.

I think that Dick Mills is a very talented, strongly opinionated, stubborn instructor from the old school who should be listened to. His approach and program is not that radical. We have purchased his program of DVDs' and he has been wonderful in support. After viewing film of my son who is a 6'7" LHP HS senior, Dick called to discuss his potential and projectability. He was honest in his analysis. He never mentioned money or fees but showed himself to be a devoted instructor, who could articulate his passion and mastery on the subject of pitching. We have spoken in e-mail and on the phone several times, to better understand how to increase velocity. He did this with Joe (father) and Barry Zito. Barry, during his senior year in high school was throwing in the low 80's. Barry Zito credits Dick Mills with increasing his velocity to 90+ and Barry now regards Dick as having one of the best programs available. Dick knows how to watch film and look for breaks in the kinetic link. Dick Mill should not be taken with a grain of salt as Ursa Major suggests. Dick is the real deal. The funny thing about this thread is that I very often agree Ursa Major.

There are obviously thousands of details in this quest, but I imagine that 75 per-cent of the search for answers is found inside the player himself. Dads are just along for the ride and sometimes to guide. Its all good.

[Ursa Major]

Robeckert says: Dick Mill should not be taken with a grain of salt as Ursa Major suggests. Dick is the real deal. The funny thing about this thread is that I very often agree Ursa Major.

There are obviously thousands of details in this quest, but I imagine that 75 per-cent of the search for answers is found inside the player himself. Dads are just along for the ride and sometimes to guide. Its all good.Rob, I'm glad that you agree with me most of the time. And I'm more pleased that you had a good experience with Mills. I think he's unfairly pilloried for the injury to his son or for the brief duration of his MLB career. If the man can teach, the other issues are irrelevant.

I don't say that I disagree with Mills, but I worry -- as someone who deals with experts and their limitations and lack of intellectual honesty all the time -- that Mills has belatedly jumped on pseudoscience to back up his theories without fully understanding the principles involved. That's just my BS detector trying to parse his analyses. It may be that he, like Nyman, knows his stuff but has trouble articulating it. What he has done for you, by contrast, appears to be fully within the scope of his realm of knowledge. Better to rely on him than me. As you say, the Dads have to be there with their own BS detector -- in my eyes, to be ready to call "whoa" when an instructor's wisdom appears to be overtaken by ego, monetary interest, or lack of intellectual heft.

[Robeckert]

Regarding the Dick Mill's pitching program
Ursa Major has written that:

"I think he's unfairly pilloried for the injury to his son or for the brief duration of his MLB career. If the man can teach, the other issues are irrelevant".

Again, I agree with you:

Dick Mill's son, Ryan was hit with a Herb Score come-backer while pitching the first game of his Freshman year in college ball. The line drive hit him in the face and broke his jaw which had to be wired shut for the rest of the season. Obviously no one can find fault in that other than to say, D-1 baseball might seriously consider using wood bats. Technology and metal bats have out-distanced 60'6".

Dick's "cup of coffee" in the Major Leagues while playing for the Red Sox should not be an issue at all. He is very open about this and does not pretend to have experienced an epiphany, or to have been given the keys to the city while out on the mound for Boston. It was a brief career and he should get a tip of the hat for making it to the show.

The real point is...Can Dick Mills Teach?

I have a very good friend who pitched for 18 years in Professional Baseball.
He won two World Series rings during that time. After he retired, he returned to baseball at the Little League level and would often appear very amused with the opinions of so many who pretended to know so much about the game. When I showed him Dick Mill's material he gave him a call and they talked for an hour. I think that both men came away with an appreciation for one another.
Dick Mills does know what he is talking about...and so does my friend who is now my son's HS pitching coach. He is very fortunate to have found the right coaching and the right program. Many talented players never do.

[wogdoggy]

Technology and metal bats have out-distanced 60'6".


And thats a whole other thread.Any parent especially those with pitchers hate hearing stories like that.:mad:

[BrantleyF]

I recently read about your concerns for dick mills' teaching methods. I personally have boughten the program and have to say that it works incredibly well...it's not so much based on scientific methods as it is the video taping of proper momentum from mechanics. I'm telling you that as a pitcher i gained 10 mph in two months with the program, mostly cause my mechanics were for ****, and can now throw the balls 87mph and still gaining. His system works, but it is expensive because he wants it limited for the most dedicated i think.

[Houston]

So what do we know about Marshall's system nearly 3 years later?

My son will be starting player pitch next year and he's shown an interest in pitching.

I know nothing about teaching pitching so I started to do some research on Steven Ellis, Dick Mills, and Mike Marshall. Who or what should I be looking at in 2009?

Pretty interesting thread here. What ever happened to C45's son?

[kylebee]

Wow, what a bump.

So what do we know about Marshall's system nearly 3 years later?

Nothing more, really. His students haven't had much success at the higher levels - Joe Williams got a cup of coffee in AA with the St. Louis Cardinals organization, but was let go fairly quickly after that.

Mike Farrenkopf is pitching at Incarnate Word, but hasn't put up good stats. Colin Carmody will allegedly be going there after he finishes his program in Marshall's camp.

I know nothing about teaching pitching so I started to do some research on Steven Ellis, Dick Mills, and Mike Marshall. Who or what should I be looking at in 2009?

A lot of stuff, IMO. Marshall, Steven Ellis, Chris O'Leary, Paul Reddick - the list goes on and on. You can check out a lot of people, and frankly, it can take a long time.

If you limit overuse of your son when he pitches, that's the best start you can have, IMO.

Pretty interesting thread here. What ever happened to C45's son?

Sadly, Coach45 has disappeared from the Internet and has dropped out of contact with several members who have been in touch with him over the past year or two. Many of us think that he was on to something, but allegedly (not fact) Pat had a poor tryout and just decided to give it up, which discouraged Coach45. A real shame.

EDIT: You might not know this - but Coach45 abandoned Marshall some time ago and started his own company; RPM Pitching was the name of it.

[CircleChange11]

I know personally many Major League and Minor League pitchers who are students of Tom House. Randy Johnson and Greg Maddox to name a few. I haven't talked to him in quite a while but I know he has quite a following.

Ryan Mills was genetically gifted out of college, tall and could throw average major league speed (91+) from the left side, and so he was drafted high and cashed in.

This correlation bothers me because it stinks of 'bias'.

Was Randy Johnson any LESS tall, left-handed, flame-throwing, or genetically gifted than Ryan Mills?

Of course not, I think we could all say that RJ was MUCH more than Mills, except them being equally "left-handed".

It doesn't always seem to clear how exactly House helped these guys improved or how he "worked with them" and at what point in their careers.

The biggest case that we know of is Prior ...

[Ursa Major]

My son will be starting player pitch next year and he's shown an interest in pitching.

I know nothing about teaching pitching so I started to do some research on Steven Ellis, Dick Mills, and Mike Marshall. Who or what should I be looking at in 2009?Houston, I assume that your son will be 8 or 9 next year. At this point, I don't think you need to adopt a particular pitching philosophy or guru. The most important thing for your son to do is to just learn to throw well. Depending on how well his natural throwing motion has developed, you may not need much formal coaching yet. The important thing is for him to be able to start his throwing motion with his shoulders pointed at the target and step with his hips closed -- doing crow-hop semi-long toss throws (think javelin throwers) is a good way to get that feel. The arm motion for normal throwing may or may not be something he can more or less develop naturally with sufficient throwing practice, but a good youth coach should have an idea of how to teach that, if you can't. At that point, let him start throwing -- on occasition -- over a plate at the regulation distance and work to see if he can throw strikes at least half the time.

One of the best instructors you can find at this age is an accomplished high school or college pitcher. They will usually have enough knowledge of sound mechanics to be able to teach as much as he needs. Just as important, guys at that age level are immensely cool, and kids will listen to them more than they will to you or any other adult. Ask around to the coaches in your son's league at the 8 through 12 age levels -- they'll usually have a lead on someone who will do this kind of teaching.

I personally like Steve Ellis' site. It's got a ton of helpful advice based on his own experiences and he's an engaging guy. And, of course, it's free.

[Blackhat]

Ursa says it very well. At that age concentrate on proper throwing and pitching will be ok. Keep playing catch with him and you'll see improvement.

There is lots of good info on Steve Ellis' site. http://www.thecompletepitcher.com.

I also really liked Dr. John Bagnozi's book, The Act of Pitching. He has a website at http://www.pitchingprofessor.com but I like his book better than the website (more info).

[Jake Patterson]

My journey here was very long and it included time at Dr. Marshall's camp.

As a father and coach I used pretty conventional methods to teach and my youngest son pitched well through HS (Southeast NE All-Star) and as an adult never having any arm issues.

I do believe Marshall has the baseball world thinking differently about pitching and I do believe his claims about no injuries. The problem I have always had was whether or not it would stand the ultimate tests at the highest levels and whether or not it's teachable by the average coach at any level.

Currently there are only a few people who I believe Doc would considered qualified to teach his methods. C45 DID have something that I thought was teachable and easily understood by the average coach and it DID make a difference. He had me and my coaching staff throwing pain free for the first time in 30 years and we were able to win our district championship three years in a row with no arm injuries with less than average sized pitchers/players. I attribute this - in part- to the way we taught throwing. These same players now as 18,19,20,21 year olds playing Legion and college have reverted to conventional throwing methods and several have serious arm issues...

With my own sons I was very conscious of overuse and we threw every day...

Hope this helps,
Jake