Token playing time for weaker players in youth ball

[Ursa Major]

In a recent thread, Jake Patterson noted by way of passing that he'd written a book called How To Coach Little League: A Short Easy To Follow Guide On How To Begin Your Little League Coaching Career, available in book or downloadable format from booklocker.com. I don't know Jake and I haven't read (and am not here to pimp) this book, although the excerpt from another Jake Patterson book on coaching basketball makes it appear as though he's got some outstanding ideas. (If you want to see the excerpt, go to the booklocker.com site and select the "Sports" category, and Jake's two books should come up.)

While scanning his basketball book, I came across an included article Jake wrote about coaches giving token playing time to arguably lesser players. I have never seen anything written on that specific subject and it was absolutely brilliant! I literally had tears in my eyes because I've seen exactly what you describe over and over again. Coaches either are (or pretend to be) totally clueless about the impact of such playing decisions on the kids. Any boy or girl above the age of 9 knows when he is being patronized -- being treated as though it's a chore to have to put him or her on the field to meet leagues' minimum playing time rules.

In my son's 11-12 year old league, the weaker kids almost always get stuck playing nothing but the outfield (even in practice), and it becomes a vicious cycle because they can't be good infielders without having the opportunity to work at it. Two almost quit even though the team was on a run that led to the championship. I finally had to implore my son's coach, "Hey, if you're not going to play the younger kids beyond the minimum, at least go to them once a week and give them an encouraging word and let them know they're a big contributor to the team."

Ironically, the kids ultimately reacted in a "well, I'll show that guy" attitude. It was a wonderful experience in the semifinal game when the four 12 year olds tanked and the team fell behind 6 to 1. All of a sudden, each and every one of the seven 11-year olds, who he'd always disdained as weak hitters, came through with big plays and hits, including my son's strike from right field to nail a runner at the plate, a first-ever home run from another kid, and a key RBI ground out from a kid who'd been zoning out because of serious family problems. They won 11-8 and then, with that burst of confidence permeating the team, won the championship game 15 - 0.

I raise the issue because I think baseball's biggest fans are adults who played, and developed a love for it, in a youth league, and I hate to see this potential appreciation for the game soured because of such coaching. And I don't think you need to risk the team's chances of winning by including lesser players. For example, one of my son's great coaches the previous two years would put weaker players at third base when the bottom of the opponent's lineup was due up, as they were not very likely to pull the ball anyway. Just the experience of warming up with the regular infielders before the inning started was a treat to them.

Anyway, I invite Jake and others to weigh in on this issue. How as a coach do you handle it? How as a player or parent do you address such a coach?

[Jake Patterson]

Hi Ursa,
I somehow missed this and found it surfing the web. Thanks for your kind words.

We have all experienced this phenomenom. I have two sons, each at the extreme opposites of the scale, i.e. one who always started and the other that only recieved Token Playtime. The affect that it has had on my sons has help to shaped who they became as adults. I have given this topic considerable thought and have considered it as a possible dissertation for my Doctorate. The interesting part of the problem is not what it is - it's why it happens.

If anyone would like to view or use the article for your youth leagues contact me at pattersonsports@yahoo.com

I have developed self guide measures to insure that I do not fall victim to my own observations.
What we do as coaches is age dependent. How you treat players on a Minor League team is different than what we would do at the high school or college level, although the lesson here is "..if we have one person who does not feel they are part of the team, then you do not have a team."

At the high school level I spend a great deal of time establishing roles. During the beginning of the season I let the players establish what it is they see their role as. Most players see their talents for what they are and I usually do not have a problem with the majority of the team. As the season progresses I establish quantitative goals for the players so they can determine for themselves if they qualify for the role they desire.

Also in the book is a chart I developed, oddly enough with Stump Merrill (That's a story in itself). It has been a guide for me for many years.

I tried to cut and paste it here but it wouldn't format correctly.
If anyone wants a copy send me an email.

Jake

[pgibbons]

I have two sons, each at the extreme opposites of the scale, i.e. one who always started and the other that only recieved Token Playtime. The affect that it has had on my sons has help to shaped who they became as adults.

Jake, could you tell us a little more about what effect you feel it's had on your sons - or on people in general? I think the topic is an interesting one.

BTW, I read your article and thought it was excellent as well.

[Ursa Major]

If anyone wants to read Jake's article but is too lazy to search it out in the "coaching basketball" book at booklocker.com, I can forward a copy of it in .pdf format -- so long as it's okay with Jake, of course. I did send a copy to one of our youth league directors, who's excited about it and promised to push to see that it's included in the coaching curriculum. I think it is significant that it's a player's mom whom I felt more comfortable broaching the subject with, as I think that guys who grew up in the rigid meritocracy of sports leagues are more likely to think that it's the natural order of things for stars to get all the playing time.

In chatting with her I was reminded of our experience where our sons were on a 7 and 8 year old team together. Her son was quite good and, being left-handed, played first base virtually every inning. My son and several other "weaker" players who were brand new to the game, never played a single inning in the infield all season long.... in coach pitch ball! Being new to the league, I kind of accepted this but in retrospect realize that I should have ripped the coach a new one. And, of course, he's still in the league and still hyperventilating in his coaching, and his kids are so tense that they invariably break down in clutch situations.

The answer to this of course has to be in the management of the league that both selects the coaches and sets the policies. But, I'll bet your league is like mine, and the administrators and coaches are invariably the parents of the stronger kids, so they aren't as likely to see the problem. And other parents, like I was facing the zealous coach of the pee-wee team, don't want to be viewed as whiners.

[pgibbons]

Anyone ever read John T Reed's book on youth baseball coaching? It's very good and touches on a lot of the issues we're discussing here.

Reed pulls no punches and has a writing style that's very 'in your face'. People either love him or hate him. But you can decide for yourself by reading some of his free articles about baseball coaching here:

http://www.johntreed.com/bbarticles.html

http://www.johntreed.com/YBCerrata.html

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, could you tell us a little more about what effect you feel it's had on your sons - or on people in general? I think the topic is an interesting one.

BTW, I read your article and thought it was excellent as well.

Again, thanks for your kind words....

I have been at coaching long enough to watch those I've coached initially age into adulthood, many having children of their own. As I mentioned above, a full study could be dedicated to this topic. When looking at the affects sports has had on those I've coached I have found that they may fall into several major categories. The three obvious ones being;
1. Athletics has had a positive influence on who the individual becomes.
2. Athletics has had a negative influence on who the individual becomes.
3. Athletics has not substantially influenced who the individual becomes.
(Again this would require substantial work to properly articulate and identify the above)

I feel that in many cases individual players are affected by all three categories simultaniously to varying degrees. My oldest, a quite, less talented player was the Token kid. It killed me to see coaches put him in as an after thought and this eventually had a powerfull impact on his self-confidence as an adult, something he struggles with to this day. On the other hand it had a positive impact in that he learned early in life that he had to work harder than others in order to be successfull. (In basketball when looking for a pass we tell the players, "Don't just be open - be seen.")

My other son was very talented and is the antithesis of his brother. He tries to get through life on good looks and talent and is now finding in college, this won't cut it.

I am not a believer in the "keep no score" mentality. I believe there is alot children can learn from athletics. Winning AND losing teaches us much. Children can be an active, important part of the team without being the stars. How we treat those players and how we help them see themselves as athletes is what's important.

[Jake Patterson]

[QUOTE=pgibbons]Anyone ever read John T Reed's book on youth baseball coaching? It's very good and touches on a lot of the issues we're discussing here.

Reed pulls no punches .....QUOTE]

While Reed has a lot of good things to say in his articles he makes a classic mistake that many of us fall victim to. He usues the term, or concept youth athletics too losely. There is a big difference between coaching 7 year olds and 14 year olds. I believe in rotating new players through positions when they are young. Children develop at such different rates it is impossible to effectively pigeon-hole them without ramifications. The right fielder you have today in Minor League may be your star shortstop in high school in a few years.

[wogdoggy]

i agree the dork of today can be the stud of mannana.but platooning kids doesnt work either. know what kind of coach you have ahead of time.the older kids get it seems the more important it is to win.

[Jake Patterson]

i agree the dork of today can be the stud of mannana.but platooning kids doesnt work either. know what kind of coach you have ahead of time.the older kids get it seems the more important it is to win.

I wouldn't call them dorks - just under developed or unskilled.

[Ursa Major]

Pete, thanks for the link to the Reed articles. I can see how they're controversial, but I tend to agree with about 70% of his ideas. My philosophy on coaching -- borrow from the best but don't be afraid to discard what doesn't work. The only coach whose philosophies I have yet to find fault with ... at least yet ... is Jake Patterson. :) :clapping

Reed doesn't really address the tokenism aspects in his articles, as he is focused more on strategies for winning, rather than just giving kids a good experience. (I applaud his obsession with safety, though) Still, since you address it, I think it's worth bringing up his terrific coaching mistakes article. While I disagree with a few points, the mistakes that I think he best focuses on are (and remember that these are mistakes -- things you should not do):

* Wasting practice time on activities where one player gets an occasional repetition while the rest of the team stands around in small groups chatting.
* Failing to hold a parent meeting at which you explain your policies on position assignments, batting order, playing time, and so forth.
* Destroying player confidence by telling them all the things they are doing “wrong.”
* Trying to control runners at all times rather than letting them make their own, faster, and often better decisions.
* Practicing two-throw, double-force double plays.
* Giving prestigious positions out on the basis of nepotism rather than ability and team need.
* Failing to emphasize baserunning, which is by far the most coachable aspect of baseball.
* Failure to teach players where to go when the ball is not hit to them and failure to insist that they go there. Pitchers and outfielders, especially, tend to go “off duty” whenever a ball is hit somewhere other than to them.
* Letting players do “AT&T” tags (“Reach out and touch someone”) instead of putting the tag on the ground next to the base.
* Letting catchers take off their mask/helmet to throw to a base to stop a steal.

I take a little bit of issue with his insistence that players don't need to get much batting practice or instruction after the season starts. First, it may not accurately describe his situation. Knowing the area in which he coaches -- a lily-white, high income suburb of San Francisco, I'm guessing that at least 60 percent of his players sneak off with their dads to the numerous batting cages in that area. Many probably get paid coaching on the side and their dads are pretty zealous about teaching them, so they probably reach Reed's level with acceptably good swings in place.

I think there is room for working on the mechanics of kids' swings. To be sure, you should pretty much figure that kids aren't going to change their swings much once the season starts. But, going into preseason, you can do some triage to try to correct some egregious errors, which of course are more likely to exist with kids who haven't had the benefit of learning from coaches or zealous dads. And, I think the more kids swing with some good instruction (to a point), the more likely the are to reach the kind of epiphany that Reed describes elsewhere, where the kid just feels something right that has worked its way into his swing, and the kid manages to replicate it. Again, you can't be working on sixteen different issues at that point.

What is implicit in his article is a point that is well made elsewhere -- don't try to correct a kid's swing during a game, fer hevvinsakes.

Ursa Major
ex-"Dork" :ughh

[pgibbons]

Ursa Major, I agree with you on the whole batting practice thing. And you're right about the area that Reed lives in - Tony LaRussa is one of his neighbors so I wouldn't be surprised that plenty of kids in that area are either getting regular batting practice, or have their own cages.

About tokenism and what Jake Patterson had mentioned - the difference in coaching at different age levels. Reed may not have addressed it very well in his articles, but he does address this issue quite a bit in his books. He tells stories about how some coaches don't give the quiet, low-key kids a chance. He felt his own son was unfairly discriminated against because of his quiet demeanor. But he eventually blossomed and went on to play football at Columbia.

I don't want to sound like I'm shilling for Reed though. I figured those that like Jake's writing would appreciate Reeds as well. Although Reed is much different from Jake Patterson, I feel they both have a unique voice and are willing to talk about some of the psychological and political issues in youth sports that most 'coaching' books won't touch with a ten foot pole.

[Jake Patterson]

Pete and Ursa,
The new edition of How to Coach Little League was published last week. I would like to send you both a POD copy in exchange for your feedback. The book is still technically weak with regards to baseball skills because I felt there are hundreds of other books out there covering those areas. My primary intent was to reach new coaches and discuss the not too often talked about topics such token playtime, difficult parents, planning, winning versus teaching, etc...

If you are interested send me your address at pattersonsports@yahoo.com

I would welcome anyone else's input on the new edition, just send me your address.

He who dares to teach must never cease to learn!

[Jake Patterson]

It took me a while but I think I figured out how to get the following attached.... lets see. Click on the following:

4686

I developed this over a tuna sandwich with Stump Merrill, but like I said earlier - that's a story in itself.

[digglahhh]

I would like to share some of my experiences here.

First off all, I have a brother five years younger than myself. A divorce and the timing of other events led to the fact that my father, who was very knowledgable about the game, was able to prepare me a lot better than he was able to prepare and help my brother.

As such, I excelled in youth baseball while my brother didn't. Our levels of passion for the game are far apart. He is a fan, but not nearly like me, and without my influence and the closeness of our relationship, his engagement would dwindle even further.

Regarding giving playing time. I've done some coaching and will only say this. It is unfair to the entirety of the team to not give yourself the best chance to win. This does not mean you have to stick your worst players on your bench, but be more aware of situations. I took it upon myself to learn as much as I could about the other teams so that I knew what "quality concessions" I could make and when to make them, while minimally hurting the team.

Additionally, its corny to say but although you can't coach talent, the window to making your kids smart, aware and responsible in their on field decisions is wide open. Ironically, it is often some of the weaker kids who make fewer mental mistakes as they aren't disillusioned with their abilities to make plays they have no business trying in the first place. You cant change natural talent, but you can always minimize mistakes.

[wogdoggy]

Regarding giving playing time. I've done some coaching and will only say this. It is unfair to the entirety of the team to not give yourself the best chance to win. This does not mean you have to stick your worst players on your bench, but be more aware of situations. I took it upon myself to learn as much as I could about the other teams so that I knew what "quality concessions" I could make and when to make them, while minimally hurting the team

It all depends on what your coaching.rec ball vs travel ball.Kids hate to loose so trying to win isnt such a bad thing.At age 12 kids are learning the REALITIES of life.Just juggling the batting order around gives them a little taste of it.You will find kids and parents want to win,and they want to win more then you think.We had 3 travel teams for age 11 in our park district,the two that had losing records are no longer together.They are attempting to take the talent from the two teams and try to make a better team.WHY? :crazy Parents and KIDS dont want to travel from town to town losing.Just put a kid in a position where hes out of place and say your DEVOLOPING him and see what the other parents say.Especially in a tournament.Remember these people pay around 800 a year to play youth travel.They want to win.so all in all you have to know what the attitude is b4 you start.

[Jake Patterson]

Regarding giving playing time... It is unfair to the entirety of the team to not give yourself the best chance to win.

I believe we are on the same page. Study after study has shown that a vast majority of those who play sports up to the high school level would much rather play and lose than not play and win. At the Little League level I believe the number exceeds 90%.

Any one who puts on a uniform, picks up a glove doesn't do so to lose, regardless of their talent level. The problem is how do you balance the need to win and the need to participate. The chart I offered above suggests that the ratio varies depending upon the athletes age and the type of league in which you participate.

[wogdoggy]

again that chart is fine for rec ball.the chart means didley when you are dealing with parents and kids that want to compete and win.when game time comes its time to win,you can instruct and show during practice and practice games.

[Jake Patterson]

again that chart is fine for rec ball.the chart means didley when you are dealing with parents and kids that want to compete and win.when game time comes its time to win,you can instruct and show during practice and practice games.

Again its age and league type dependent. Regardless of the situation there will always be parents that want to win at all costs. That's the poinbt of the chart. Ther are situations where that is not appropriate, no matter how bad you want to win.

[Ursa Major]

Digg, excellent points all. To be sure, a weaker kid doesn't want to be known as a charity case, but I think if as a coach you let the kids know ahead of time about what the rules are as far as allocating playing time, they'll understand why weaker kids get in. Of course, it depends on age level and skill disparities as well.

I like your point about scouting the opposition and finding opportunities to play "developing" kids at appropriate points, say, by giving a slower pitcher an opportunity to pitch against the bottom of the other team's order. One of my favorite coaches (in a 9-10 year old league) would put a weaker fielder in at third base in an inning when our fastest pitcher was pitching to righthanders. Batters rarely got around on him well enough to pull, and I don't think it cost us a run all year. The kids' fielding percentage there was maybe 50 percent on the few occasions that the ball came over there, but it still took more hits to bring 'em around. And the boys' were excited and got to warm up with the rest of the infielders. Well worth the risk, IMHO.

Wogdoggy said, "again that chart is fine for rec ball.the chart means didley when you are dealing with parents and kids that want to compete and win.when game time comes its time to win,you can instruct and show during practice and practice games."True, in travel ball the kids -- even the 11 year olds -- probably move up to level 2 on the chart. That's a different animal. Still, all the parents in that milieu are expecting big things for their kids, and will really resent the investment if their kid isn't playing at all. And, you can only learn so much in practices. In fact, in some ways, the goal of travel ball is less about winning than it is about development and exposure of the individual players; I'll bet more travel ball parents know their kids' batting average than do those in "rec ball".

I think you need to have the guts to say to the "win only" parents (who I'll bet are not the ones whose kids aren't playing much)
-- (a) every kid and every parent on this team has an investment in it and an equal right for their kid to develop, and
-- (b) a team that has a bunch of kids glued to the bench (i) is a candidate for internal chemistry problems that will affect their chances of winning, (ii) because of injuries or schedule conflicts could be hampered when we need these other kids to be ready to step in, and (iii) risks the safety of the "every inning" kids, including your superstar, who instead should sit and rest every once in awhile. (It's amazing how coaches are sometimes more concerned about a kid's safety than the kid's own Dad.)

And, I will buy you a copy of Jake Patterson's book at such time as you have the courage to present any parent with a reason (c): "Because I think that part of my responsibility is to develop these players as people and their ability to work together as a team and to accept life's inevitable losses is more important to that development than your desire to have another trophy to put on the mantle." ;)

And, for any kind of team, you have to be wary of confusing the noise generated by the most vociferous parents with the views of all the parents. I (and presumably other parents of equally young and weaker players) didn't complain to our coach about our sons' lack of playing time last season in large part because we didn't want to seem to be stereotypic whiners. That didn't mean we were happy, 'cuz we weren't.

Jake, thanks for your offer about the book. I'll email you separately about it to both the address above and your hotmail account.

Ursa

[pgibbons]

Have there been any studies on the effect that the "win-at-all-cost" philosphy has on a child's psychological development?

[Jake Patterson]

Have there been any studies on the effect that the "win-at-all-cost" philosphy has on a child's psychological development?

Pete, there have been many studies performed with none supporting that a "win at all cost mentality" is good for anyone. The damage a "win at all costs" mentality has on a child can be closely compared to that of a child developing with over bearing and psychologically abusive parents.:grouchy

Fred Engh, President of the National Alliance of Youth Sports says, "Winning at all costs is probably the ugliest thing we can teach children, yet we have many, many people - parents and coaches - who do that today."

An article I found on the Net that further explains this is:

Good Sports: Raising a Young Athlete
By Sheila King, Exercise Physiologist at UCLA - Program Director of the American College of Sports Medicine

We've seen them on TV and the local playing fields: overbearing parents so over-involved in their children's sports that they undermine growth and performance. Consider the plight of 17-year-old Australian tennis sensation Jelena Dokic. Not only did officials eject her father from a Wimbledon warm-up tournament for shouting at officials, but he was also arrested "for his own safety" after he laid down in traffic and jumped on the hood of a car.

Want to hear an even sadder story? Gymnast Dominique Moceanu became an Olympic gold medallist at the ripe old age of 14, while ignoring a painful four-inch stress fracture in her left leg. "Who is looking out for this child?" ESPN sportswriter Mark Kreidler wondered at the time. At 17, Moceanu asked a judge to declare her a legal adult so that she could free herself from her parents (former gymnasts who had nursed gold-medal dreams for Dominique since her birth). After a very public battle, she won the right to choose her own coaches, control her own money and lead her own life.

Let's not kid ourselves, parental interference isn't just found at the level of the professional athlete. In recent years, police had to break up a fistfight between coaches and parents at a Little League game for 10-year-olds; one father was accused of beating another parent to death after a dispute at their sons' hockey practice. Such violence is "epidemic" and is turning off many young athletes, says Fred Engh, president of the National Alliance for Youth Sports and author of Why Johnny Hates Sports. In fact, approximately 73 percent of children who compete in organized sports quit by age 13. Many drop out because they say the pressure from coaches and parents simply takes all the fun out of playing and competing.

So how can we keep our kids motivated and help them achieve their sports goals without burning them out? We need to shift the emphasis from competition and winning to fun and play, whether we've got a budding Mia Hamm or Michael Jordan on our hands or a kid who's happy playing intramural ball. We need to let our children take the lead in defining their sports commitments. Our job as parents is to help set healthy limits and reasonable expectations. While there are no recipes for creating star athletes, we can nurture elite talent and promote healthy exercise habits in young people.

a.. Parents, take a chill pill. Lose the attitude of winning at all costs. Many children do not enjoy organized sports because coaches and parents put too much pressure on winning. Moms and dads with Olympic dreams must not lose sight of the long-term reality. Fewer than 1 percent of the children participating in organized sports today will qualify for any type of athletic scholarship in college and an even smaller number of those will go on to professional sports or the Olympics, according to the National Center for Educational Statistics. Coaches and parents who instill a life-long love of fitness and sports are the real winners.

b.. Choose the right coach. Providing good coaching can help children develop the skills and abilities they need to excel and succeed in sports. The best coaches are positive and offer lots of encouragement, emphasizing both skill development and good sportsmanship. They are organized and set limits for both players and parents. They do not chastise or punish players for making mistakes. Instead, they praise the effort and emphasize fun, not winning at all costs. Most youth league coaches are volunteers and have not had professional training but that doesn't mean you have to put up with a verbally abusive coach or one who arrives late and doesn't organize practices. If you end up with one, try to move your child to another team as soon as possible. If you can't get a transfer, discuss your concerns with the coach in a private, non-threatening conversation.

c.. Stress success. Be sure your children are playing at the appropriate level for age and skill development. Nothing can be more discouraging to children than playing over their heads. Confidence is key — especially for girls, who more often express lower perceptions of physical competence than boys. Emphasize effort over result. By the same token, nothing can be more frustrating than playing below your potential. If your children are highly skilled, make sure they're challenged on the field or on the court. If they're playing above their peer level, find groups that meet their needs. Like the child who's always the last one picked when teams are being chosen, a child with the potential to be an elite athlete deserves special attention and consideration. There are plenty of resources out there; it's up to you to take full advantage of them.

d.. Avoid instant replays. Don't rehash every detail of the game with your child. Over-analyzing play can take the fun out of it. And focusing only on mistakes can backfire: Some kids will do anything to avoid making another mistake, including not doing anything at all. Children need to develop their instincts and learn to trust them. They don't need to dwell on every misstep. Let the coach provide feedback during practice when children can readily make changes.

e.. Introduce competition at the optimal time. Some children are ready for competition at an early age. But from a developmental standpoint, competition is best introduced in adolescence when children are more comfortable testing themselves against others. Most pre-adolescents do not enjoy the competitive nature of sports. The emphasis in this age group should be on fun, movement variety, social and skill development.

f.. Whose sport is it anyway? Children have to have the desire within themselves to compete and excel at sports. Parents cannot force children to succeed as athletes. The best approach is to expose kids to a variety of sports. Then let them choose the sport. Examine your personal motives for wanting your child to compete. If you are trying to live vicariously through your child, reassess what your child wants and needs and put those desires ahead of your own.

g.. Be a good sport on the sidelines. Remove all obscenities from your vocabulary. Never let your child hear you criticizing the coach or other players. Let your child know it's not the end of the world if they lose an important game. It could be their most important lesson. Parents who shout obscenities and criticisms embarrass children and squelch their desires. Keep the sideline comments positive and encouraging. Refrain from blaming umpires and referees for "bad" calls. Teach your children that such judgments are part of the game and must be overcome. Realize that most of the referees and umpires are volunteers who provide a service for your children.

h.. Keep sports in perspective. Help children learn to balance sports in their lives. Richard Williams, father and coach of tennis stars Venus and Serena Williams, says that he stresses school, religion and then tennis. Keeping children well rounded will provide them with the confidence and skills to respond to the ups and downs in life.

Parents do have an important role to play in helping support and encourage star athletes. Tiger Woods, the Williams sisters and Cal Ripken Jr. are all examples of athletes whose parents helped them develop a love of their sport and maintained healthy relationships. While your kids may never become pro athletes or Olympic stars, you can guide them to a lifelong enjoyment of sports and physical activity. Then no matter what the score of their games, they'll be winners!

I will investigate to see if there are any prospective studies available.

Go to the Net and plug in "Winning at all Costs, children" I got 6,000,000 hits.
It's a big issue to everyone except those that do not undertsand that they are the problem.

[wogdoggy]

Its not win at all costs its win when the game is being played.What do you guys expect a coach to teach during game time? Do you shout out instructions during their piano recital.Is "INSTRUCTING " lil johnny to keep his elbow up while the pitchers throwing teaching him anything? You want to teach the kids something? then SHUT UP once during game time .let them throw the ball where they think it should be thrown.Let them play the game and learn by their mistakes.Yeah win at all costs means in travel to put the players where they desreve to be when they deserve to be there.There is no favortism.The best kids play where they DESERVE to play.IS that win at all costs.What you teach a kid yelling out instructions in a game is more detrimental than good.Thats what practice is for.and if you dont have enough practice maybe you should play less games and practice more.

[pgibbons]

Jake, thanks for that article and the search tip. I'm going to read more on the topic.

[Jake Patterson]

Its not win at all costs its win when the game is being played.What do you guys expect a coach to teach during game time?

Hey Wog,
Not sure who this is directed to... but here's some other thoughts...
I also advicate, "Practice belongs to the coach and the games to the players." I agree during the game is not the best place to teach sports based skills, but there are many other lessons to be learned. Like I said earlier, no one puts on a uniform or glove to lose. The "desire" and intent to win goes without saying.

[wogdoggy]

jake we are on the same page here.I like to let the kids play their game.

[Ranger Joe]

Jake--in your last post you said "...practice belongs to the coaches, but the game belongs to the players." I think that should be engraved in big, bold letters inside every little league dugout in America. We see way, way too many coaches (and parents) who micromanage every aspect of the game, and does that help the team win? No. The game becomes a burden to the players. Now, sometimes in the course of a game, a little reminder may be needed, but while the kid is up to bat is not the time to do it. There is plenty of time between innings to tell a player what he needs to correct, and it can be done in such a way that nobody else hears. And sometimes parents are just as guilty as the coaches. We had a player last season (I coach 9 and 10-year-olds) whose dad could be overbearing. During one game he struck out with the tying run on second. As he was walking back to the dugout, his dad roared "Doggone it, son, HIT THE BALL!" The kid turned toward the bleachers and through tears said "I'm trying, Dad!" It broke my heart for him and really drove home for me what some of the kids are going through. It's a sad, sad thing when a kid can't have fun playing baseball.

[Ursa Major]

"...practice belongs to the coaches, but the game belongs to the players." Excellent phrase... and as noted, kids will start looking over their shoulders if they think the coaches or parents will jump on them after every miscue. I think if you explain to kids why they make certain decisions, it will come a bit more naturally to them. Also, I like the idea of having the shortstop and centerfielders being "mini-coaches" assigned to do what coaches usually do -- call out game situations and what to look for before the pitch. (E.g., "man at first -- look for the force!")

I was torn when my son was an 9-year old and deathly afraid of hitting. His fear wasn't so much about getting hit by the ball, but he just sorta froze up and usually only swung with two strikes, and only hit one ball fair all season. I could tell with 100% accuracy when he stepped up to the plate and had his hands down by his waist that he was not going to swing regardless of where the pitch was. I would occasionally bark out something to fire him up -- "go attack this one", or something -- but it didn't help much, if at all. We would do everything we could during practice to build up his confidence, but up to the plate he would go and.... freeze. As with a lot of things, it just took time and good fortune. Early in his next season, the other team ran out of pitchers and put a tiny kid up who just lobbed the ball up. My son had time to go through his mental checklist of excuses for not swinging and, when it floated in front of him, he swung and hit a shot that handcuffed the third baseman. After that, he was alright against almost all pitching. Still, while he was in that phase, it was frustrating to see him walk up and know his only chance of getting on base was drawing a walk. It's tantalizing for a parent in a situation because there's the thought that it's not instruction that you're giving, but just a bit of fire. In hindsight, I realize that it was all futile to try to push him at the plate. At least it's better than the aging assistant coach the team had, who would stand at the edge of the dugout and bark after at least half of the team's swing-throughs, "To hit the ball you've gotta see the ball!" (What did that mean?)

My one other, perhaps better excuse for coaching from the sidelines was last season. I've described in my original post in this thread my son's strike from right field to nail a runner at the plate to prevent the other team from extending its lead to 7-1, and our team eventually came back and won. At the time, I was coincidentally standing down the right field line chatting with another parent when the single came out to my son. Under normal circumstances, my son would have just flipped the ball to the second baseman, and the run would have scored. But, I knew two things (and yes, this all did go through my mind in a flash). First, the runner on second (his old teammate) wasn't too fast, and second, his old coach was the third base coach and would test my son's arm, which hadn't been all that strong the previous year. So, I just screeched, "Throw it home!" -- overriding the second baseman who had no clue where the play was -- and out of instinct or fear my son made the best throw of his life. Game and season saved. (Later, my son admitted he would not have thrown home if I hadn't yelled to him.)

So, now that Coach Jake has lost all respect for me.... Ah, I've gotta redeem myself by finding a life lesson in all this. I think part of what we should have taught the outfielders in the first instance is to go ahead and try to make the play if there's a reasonable chance. At worst, the pitcher can cut the ball off and try to nail the hitter if he tries to take second on the throw. Where coaches tell kids to always just throw to the cutoff man, they eliminate the fun aspect of outfield play, which is usually a dreary place in most youth leagues.

[Ursa Major]

During one game he struck out with the tying run on second. As he was walking back to the dugout, his dad roared "Doggone it, son, HIT THE BALL!" The kid turned toward the bleachers and through tears said "I'm trying, Dad!" It broke my heart for him and really drove home for me what some of the kids are going through.This hits a question discussed recently about the responsibility coaches have to control the behavior of parents. Obviously, you can't control what the parents do to the kids at home, but that kind of outburst does affect both their performance in the game and the team's whole disposition.

I think the coaches are entitled to take that kind of Dad aside privately and say that such outbursts are not acceptable. Maybe one solution would be to suggest that the Dad leave his seat and watch his kid bat while standing on the sideline. If the kid does well, he can lead the cheering; if not and the Dad can't control his frustration enough to give the kid reassurance, he should just turn and take a couple of steps down the foul line until he gets it under control.

I see the need to control parents in the way they deal with umpiring. Our league uses older players as umps, and has really started to make the point that, "Look, parents, you save money on league fees because we use kids as umpires, so part of your deal is that you can't yell at them when they give you less than professional results. If you can't live with that, go find another league." One team in our league last year had a cadre of four dads who sat in the stands and chortled derisively whenever the home plate umpire made a close call against their team, as though to say, "What was this kid smoking before coming to the game?" Their coaches never said a thing about it to the parents, even though the league has always had a rule that coaches and parents are forbidden from arguing ball-strike calls. That's very wearing on a kid umpire (and I know, as I once was one myself).

All this does get back, albeit obliquely, to the tokenism issue -- at least to the "win at all costs" attitude at some levels. There's a lesson there -- if the game's so close that an umpire's call changes the game -- then the outcome really isn't that crucial in determining who's better, because if it wasn't the bad call it might have been some other equally random element that decided the game, like a bad patch of dirt that cause a bad hop. So, if you play hard and play the other team close, don't hang your head if the bounce (or the call) goes against you. It certainly doesn't make you any less successful a ballplayer or a kid.

But, everything the coaches or parents do to reinforce in the kid that it's the outcome of the at-bat or the game that matters undermines the thrill that a kid feels from simply improving his skills. I've rarely found an at-bat where you can't say to the kid when he comes back, "Good at-bat! You looked good doing [X]; but dang that last pitch was a tough one. You'll get your pitch next time up" (... even if the "[x]" he looked good doing was simply pumping the bat while waiting for the pitcher to start his windup).

[Ranger Joe]

As it turned out, the dad in that game came over to the dugout after the game and apologized to his son, hugged him, and then apologized to the other coaches and myself. He was very contrite and promised that we would not hear any further outbursts from him for the remainder of the season. He lived up to his promise, even to the point of getting up and walking away rather than screaming.

This leads me to another question--is it worse to deal with parents who care too much or parents who don't seem to care at all? I'm sure every little league coach feels at times like nothing more than a babysitter. We've had parents (and I'm sure you have too) who drop the kids off at practices or games, pick them up when it's over, and never get out of the minivan. I've gone whole seasons and never even met some parents. Voice mails and e-mails go unanswered, and I wonder if the parents are at all interested in their kids's activities or if they just need little Johnny out of the house for a few hours a week.

[tadlock11]

You guys have a great discussion going on here and I would like to chime in :p
A lot of it hits home as I have 10U and 7U players/sons. They both get really frustrated with me at the house as we do lots of drills i.e. soft toss, playing catch for points, etc. Sometimes I make them head out just because I can't stand seeing them inside watching cartoons on a nice day and our backyard is set up for several stations. They are both very successful in their respective age groups, last year my oldest was one of the best catchers in his league (and I'm not a very biased person). He would nearly be glowing after games and EVERYONE, even fans/parents from opposing teams would approach him about how good he did. I've tried to explain that's were the practice pays off. I ask if he had fun? Sure he did. Do you think John Doe had fun, striking out 3 times and committing an error every time a ball was hit to him? Probably not. So yes, I want my boys to have fun, but I think that with their (competitive) personalities, they need the not so fun drills off the field to be successful and have fun on the field. With the help of another "internet" coach (Lambin), I have learned to back off and let the boys be boys. I enjoy coaching when can, but my job doesn't allow me the time off to be a head coach, so I generally hook up with coaches and assist. Coach Pattersons saying "...practice belongs to the coaches, but the game belongs to the players." is very good. Game time is not the time to be working on the fundamentals or correcting flaws. In my case, I may notice a player(s) doing something incorrectly at the plate. If it isn't something I can blurt out to turn the lights on, then it will be noted for working on in practice.
Sorry for rambling on, this is one of my first posts here on this forum and it looks like there are quite a few here to learn from.
:clapping

[wogdoggy]

Coach Bruce is right about that for sure,but have you noticed how baseball coaches can be the most arrogant sob's in the world? I would have guessed football coaches had baseball beat but sometimes I wonder.Every year at some tournament and or game,I we get a nice compliment from either another coach or an umpire"hey you got a really nice team there or something to that effect" .that makes it worthwhile for me.

[Jake Patterson]

This leads me to another question--is it worse to deal with parents who care too much or parents who don't seem to care at all?

Ranger - I attached a section from my book on parents. I had to take all the graphics out in order for it to fit here.

4691

Let me know what you think.....

[Jake Patterson]

So, now that Coach Jake has lost all respect for me....

Ursa... All of us are guilty of what you described above. Short story - I was coaching at the local town school while my son attended and played for a local private school. I went to a few of his games and watched several of his practices and quickly found the coach had no idea what the hell he was doing. He wasn't qualified to coach Minor League never mind high school. I was resoilved not to say anything as it wasn't my team. During a particularly frustrating game I found myself ready to blow! Right before I said something my wife grabbed my hand and quietly said, "Honey relax. Unless you're willing to get involved, keep your opinions to yourself." The next season the school had a new head coach.... me.

[Ursa Major]

Tadlock said: They both get really frustrated with me at the house as we do lots of drills i.e. soft toss, playing catch for points, etc. Sometimes I make them head out just because I can't stand seeing them inside watching cartoons on a nice day and our backyard is set up for several stations.Tadlock, thanks for chiming in. It's tough when kids say they want to do well in baseball, but when you ask 'em to pay their dues, they'd rather play computer games or, god forbid, read ... a .... book. (Gasp... I'm so ashamed.)

One of the benefits of baseball for kids is this. Most kids in our area pretty much have their life grooved -- they pretty much get the toys they want, in today's smaller families they get the attention we had to share with multiple siblings, schools are more proactive in protecting 'em from bullies, etc. So, there isn't so much that gets really need that they know they have to work for. Sports in general and baseball in particular (because it rewards work more and raw athleticism less) provide a carrot for kids to strive for. So, I try to use it as a means to remind my kid -- "Okay, you say you want to make the all-star team, but are you willing to put in some work for it? And see that kid who's smaller than you but makes the all-stars every year? He's out on the field five days a week working with his dad and brother."

But, how much is pushing for other reasons that we dads won't admit to? And moms, bless 'em, will think we're rationalizing when we drag kids out to throw or take some swings. Now, Mom is willing to lean on a kid to practice his piano twice a week; after all, you've invested money in those lessons. But, push the kid to go out and practice his pitching motion, and Mom crosses her arms and gives you one of those "you're living your dreams through your son, aren't you?" looks. :rolleyes: But, hey, if you want to teach kids to strive to reach a goal, any goal -- well, you know they're not going to willingly sacrifice to raise their B+ average in math to an A-. Maybe they're going to have to learn that lesson doing something that really matters to them.

And you've got to be careful because, if kids sense that it's a need that you have, they'll use it as a bargaining chip. You know, "Okay, Dad, I'll go to the batting cages with you if we can get a double scoop cone on the way back." What'n'ell is that? When I was a kid, I would have crawled through a mile of broken glass to go to a batting cage!

But, it's tough to just let them blow off practicing and waste their dreams out of immaturity. My son has a teammate with whom he's played for the last three seasons. He's a lefty, and from the first time I saw him pitch to his Dad as an 8 year old, I could tell he was kissed by the gods with an arm and a musculature to be a pitcher. And he says he wants to be a pitcher at higher levels. At least once a month during the off season I've exchanged an email with his dad and, when I finish, I say, "Hey, my son would love to work on his catching; give us a call if your son wants to throw a few." And, according to the dad, the kid says he's not interested, and he in fact hasn't picked up a ball since July. The dad brought in a semi-pro pitching coach to work with him, and the kid insisted on doing things his way, wasting the dad's money and driving the coach bananas. What do you do with a kid like that? Sigh.

Jake, I love your chart about the parents. One thing I love about anything I read is when I see something (1) that, for some reason, no one else has picked up on, and (2) resonates with the truth. Everything I see from you gives me that experience. Ahhh, on that chart, I'm definitely in the (self-adjudged) "expert" category, although I never interrupt the coach in front of the kids. My rule is that I'll offer suggestions via Email, but I tell the coach that he never has to acknowledge or respond to my Emails; I don't want them ever to groan when they see an incoming Email from me, "Damn, now I'll have to spend 20 minutes explaining to the guy why I'd rather not do it his way." And, I appreciate your advice to coaches that maybe these guys have something to offer. One thing I always do is to make sure that, when I'm helping out by drilling kids, to give them no advice unless I know the manager has cleared it first.

Your point that, "Avoid talking to the parents about playing time and position assignments" is a nice sentiment, but parents are going to want to talk about it, so it conflicts with the next point about being open to talking to parents. I think the key here is to let all the parents know at the outset, (1) you believe in giving kids who are willing to work and the basic skills try at least one "new" position [so the parents will already know it's part of your agenda], but you won't let a kid play a position where he'll only be frustrated (say, third base if he doesn't have the arm to make the throws), and (2) you'll try to balance playing time but parents should understand every inning given to their kid is taking time away from some other kid. I think what's frustrating for parents is when it seems the coach has simply forgotten their kid exists or wants to try a certain position. As you say, trying to ignore those parents will only reinforce their belief that you're ignoring and are prejudiced against their kid.

One way to deal with this is to let the parents know that you have a well-thought out plan to develop your kid at a particular position. My son's one "good" coach a couple of years ago dealt with my son's desire to pitch this way. He said, "You're not too fast, put you have good control, so I want to wait for a situation where there are some power hitters up who will be a bit fooled by your speed." And, at a couple of games, he said, "I'll try to work you in during the [X] inning, if it works out." When my son did not get the call, he explained why circumstances didn't work out. Finally, he did bring my son in and... he stunk. Couldn't find the plate. Took him out after two walks and my son was clearly laboring. My son never asked to pitch again, but he was satisfied he got a fair shot, and was determined to improve enough to be a solid pitcher, which he now is. Some of all this planning may have been BS, but my son felt he was a part of "the plan", and he and I were satisfied he was treated fairly.

On the other hand, I think your rule has particular application with respect to parents arguing that their kid should be moved up in the batting order. This is basically an ego thing. Again, it's a zero sum issue -- someone moves up only at the expense of someone moving down. Again, if you explain at the outset that there are a lot of reasons that kids are assembled the way they are -- ability to make contact, take pitches, run the bases, etc. One of our more valuable kids ("CJ") last year batted dead last. But, our leadoff hitter was very fast and had a lot of pop, so you didn't want him to be coming up all the time with either no one on or a slow runner ahead of him. So, we put CJ up last and he got on about a third of the time, but he was quick and smart on the basepaths, so he scored a lot more than the kids who batted no. 6 or 7 and had weaker hitters behind them who stranded them a lot.

Ranger, you raise a wonderful point about parents who don't get involved with their kids. I mean, we were in two championship games this year in my son's two leagues, and the other teams had parents for only half the kids at those games! At the regular season games it was ridiculous how few parents attended. I guess you can guilt-trip the parents into coming, but if they're that distant from their kids, they aren't going to care what you think. Maybe you can suggest that the kids invite a friend or two to the game, and you can make a point of making the friend a mini-VIP, saying hello or making a strategy comment to 'em every inning or two. At least that way, the kid feels like a hero to someone.

[wogdoggy]

"Honey relax. Unless you're willing to get involved, keep your opinions to yourself." The next season the school had a new head coach.... me.



I take it you didn't keep quiet..lol.At least you didn't have to remove her hingernails from your forearms.

[Jake Patterson]

Your point that, "Avoid talking to the parents about playing time and position assignments" is a nice sentiment, but parents are going to want to talk about it, so it conflicts with the next point about being open to talking to parents. I think the key here is to let all the parents know at the outset, (1) you believe in giving kids who are willing to work and the basic skills try at least one "new" position [so the parents will already know it's part of your agenda], but you won't let a kid play a position where he'll only be frustrated (say, third base if he doesn't have the arm to make the throws), and (2) you'll try to balance playing time but parents should understand every inning given to their kid is taking time away from some other kid. I think what's frustrating for parents is when it seems the coach has simply forgotten their kid exists or wants to try a certain position. As you say, trying to ignore those parents will only reinforce their belief that you're ignoring and are prejudiced against their kid.

Hi U.M.,
Agree.... but .... one way I approach this is to say to the parents that I will not talk about play time with them because it's unfair to the children whose playtime would be affected. I wouldn't talk about your child with other parenst, so it's unfair to talk to you about playtime that affects others without them being part of the discussion.

What I will do is always answer the question, "Hey coach what do I need to do to get more playtime."

[Ursa Major]

Agree.... but .... one way I approach this is to say to the parents that I will not talk about play time with them because it's unfair to the children whose playtime would be affected. I wouldn't talk about your child with other parenst, so it's unfair to talk to you about playtime that affects others without them being part of the discussion. I think I'd approach it in the first meeting with parents this way. "If I give your child more playing time because you've come and lobbied me, than every other kid will feel he needs to come and plead with me to defend his own right to playing time. What I will do is explain why I've decided to do what I have and what your kid can do to increase his playing time."
What I will do is always answer the question, "Hey coach what do I need to do to get more playtime."This raises two points. First, I think any kid 11 and over should be old enough to be talking to the coaches directly about these issues rather than having Dad raise it, and the coaches must be very respectful to kids who do so (so long as they do it at an appropriate time). I think that's part of the learning process of youth sports. (Contrast this with one of my favorite Casey Stengel quotes, who purportedly told a player he was releasing, "Son, we'd love to keep you, but we're trying to win a pennant here.")

Second, this comes up at least as much with respect to where kids want to play. (In our Pony-affiliated league, kids are guaranteed a spot in the batting order at least three innings per game in the field, so the issue is more about not being stuck in the outfield than absolute innings.) Kids should be instructed to ask not, "Can I play second base next inning?", but rather, "What do I have to do to show you I can play there?"

This really does get back to the "tokenism" issue. If you challenge a kid to prove in practice that he can play X position and he works at it, when you put him out there, he'll be more ready and confident, and he'll feel like he's accomplished something by meeting your challenge. And, like my story above, even if he doesn't do well, he'll feel that he was treated fairly and will hopefully have the confidence that he can handle that position but just needs a little more game experience. By contrast, if he's thrown out there without this preparation and with the expectation that he'll fail, you end up the result eloquently described in the article.

[Jake Patterson]

I think I'd approach it in the first meeting with parents this way.

Good idea. Letting them know the expectations up front prevents considerable problems later. We address the problem of asking about play time during our preseason meeting.

[TonyK]

Our little league addressed this a few years ago at the minors level. Every player had to play two innings in the infield of every game. Some coaches tried to ignore it, but I did it for every game. There are two rules of thought for LL majors 10-12 level. Some coaches feel the 12-yr olds deserve to play entire games since they rode the bench as 10's or 11's. Other coaches would prefer to put the weakest players on the bench most of the games. It behooves a coach to keep track of how many innings every player has played so he/she can discuss it with a parent who has a concern.

It is important for the coaches to hold a parents only meeting at the first practice and also handout information as well. They can make it clear that should any situation come up, it is the coaches duty to discuss the matter with the umpire or other team, and not the parents. I was lucky to almost always get to work with good coaches and supportive parents.

[Jake Patterson]

Some coaches feel the 12-yr olds deserve to play entire games since they rode the bench as 10's or 11's. Other coaches would prefer to put the weakest players on the bench most of the games. .

There has to be a balance. The amount of playtime a player gets is, in part, is earned during practice. Also your starting line ups can be determined by the caliber of the opposition. If you play a weaker team start your weaker players.

It behooves a coach to keep track of how many innings every player has played so he/she can discuss it with a parent who has a concern..

Again, I have never talked about play time with a parent, as I feel it unfair to the player that would have to sit if their child played. I will however, always answer the question, "Coach what do I have to do to get more play time." I find this to be more fair and less problems with the parents.

It is important for the coaches to hold a parents only meeting at the first practice and also handout information as well. They can make it clear that should any situation come up, it is the coaches duty to discuss the matter with the umpire or other team, and not the parents. I was lucky to almost always get to work with good coaches and supportive parents.

Excellent idea. The work you put up front explaining your philosophies, rules, and roles saves huge amounts of problems during the year.

[Ursa Major]

Some coaches feel the 12-yr olds deserve to play entire games since they rode the bench as 10's or 11's.That's a problem facing my son's team this year, as the 12 year olds got all the big playing time last year with the since departed coaches. The returning kids will feel they've paid their dues, and might feel a little disgruntled that only now will "fairness" in playing time be instituted. Still, I don't think they need to play all seven innings of every game like last year's 12-year-olds to feel they've been treated fairly. Perhaps they deserve the benefit of the doubt early; if nothing else, the coach and justify greater playing time for the younger kids later in the season, saying that he needs to give them some experience for next year. And, often the issue isn't how much they play, but where. I like the idea of mandating how much infield team is required for kids to prevent them from spending the whole season in the outfield. Two innings per game is tough to enforce, but obviously wasn't (which is criminal -- you either have the rule or you don't), but maybe three innings every two games might give the coaches more flexibility.
It behooves a coach to keep track of how many innings every player has played so he/she can discuss it with a parent who has a concern..I'm sorry, but it sounds a little like documenting every tardy and absence of an employee to make a case for firing him or her. But it's probably not a bad point. If you can back up your statement that the parent's kids is playing more than Johnny and Billy, it doesn't sound like the kid is being singled out. Then again, that parent now has ammunition to draft the parents of Johnny and Billy to be his ally. :laugh Still, it might not hurt to have that data accessible.

Most coaches have their substitution plan printed out before they get to the ballpark, so they can save them on their computer with a different name for each game, so they can refer back to it, just making sure they keep a hard copy of the version they took to the game that has all the last-minute changes they made. It may be a good idea anyway if some other coach accuses them of not complying with playing time requirements.

And coaches should be prepared to make changes to playing time during the game. As Jake notes, if the opposition is weak or at the bottom of their order, it may be time to let your weaker players play more prominent positions -- like the pitcher who's slow but accurate. And, if the game is a blowout, it's a good day to rest your starting pitcher and catcher as the game winds down.

[tominct]

In chatting with her I was reminded of our experience where our sons were on a 7 and 8 year old team together. Her son was quite good and, being left-handed, played first base virtually every inning. My son and several other "weaker" players who were brand new to the game, never played a single inning in the infield all season long.... in coach pitch ball! Being new to the league, I kind of accepted this but in retrospect realize that I should have ripped the coach a new one. And, of course, he's still in the league and still hyperventilating in his coaching, and his kids are so tense that they invariably break down in clutch situations.

The answer to this of course has to be in the management of the league that both selects the coaches and sets the policies. But, I'll bet your league is like mine, and the administrators and coaches are invariably the parents of the stronger kids, so they aren't as likely to see the problem. And other parents, like I was facing the zealous coach of the pee-wee team, don't want to be viewed as whiners.

This sounds SO much like the situation in our coach pitch league. I began a thread about a ideal C-P league model, and have been gettign smoe nice feedback. One of my problems is that some of the guys involved are hell-bent on keeping the competitive nature of the league the primary focus. One gentleman rarely neglects to mention, in endorsing his own coaching ability, that his C-P team actually shut out another team! He actually thinks this makes him a superior coach! "The kids were so pumped!" he would say. IN fact, he played the same player at first base each inning, and he played the same five players in the infield each inning. "I can't put a kid in the infield who's going to get hurt," he would argue.

Contrarily, I coached a team composed primarily of 7 year olds and would show up at the field with a spreadsheet listing each player's name and the position each woudl play in each inning. I felt obligated to play all of my players in the infield and the outfield.

We had a skakeup this fall in terms of leaderhip, but the gentleman to which I referred earlier was our league's C-P commissioner last year, and is an "E-Board" member and highly resistant to any proposed changes in the system.

It stinks!

[Uncle Dak]

This sounds SO much like the situation in our coach pitch league. I began a thread about a ideal C-P league model, and have been gettign smoe nice feedback. One of my problems is that some of the guys involved are hell-bent on keeping the competitive nature of the league the primary focus. One gentleman rarely neglects to mention, in endorsing his own coaching ability, that his C-P team actually shut out another team! He actually thinks this makes him a superior coach! "The kids were so pumped!" he would say. IN fact, he played the same player at first base each inning, and he played the same five players in the infield each inning. "I can't put a kid in the infield who's going to get hurt," he would argue.

Contrarily, I coached a team composed primarily of 7 year olds and would show up at the field with a spreadsheet listing each player's name and the position each woudl play in each inning. I felt obligated to play all of my players in the infield and the outfield.

We had a skakeup this fall in terms of leaderhip, but the gentleman to which I referred earlier was our league's C-P commissioner last year, and is an "E-Board" member and highly resistant to any proposed changes in the system.

It stinks!

Information on creating youth baseball leaques with equal opportunity for all youth can be found at PONY Baseball on the web: http://www.pony.org/home/default.asp

[Jake Patterson]

One of my problems is that some of the guys involved are hell-bent on keeping the competitive nature of the league the primary focus. One gentleman rarely neglects to mention, in endorsing his own coaching ability, that his C-P team actually shut out another team!

Tom, no matter how you slice and dice this - it's wrong! This is clearly an example of a coach living through the exploits and successes of his team. I would suggest the following. At a league meeting get on the agenda and encourage the league to identify the mission and specific goals of the league. To prevent a confrontational edge to the meeting you may want to use the "Feel, Felt, Found" method. Try something like,

"Look guys, I know how most of us feel about winning at this level. Other coaches I have been discussing this with throughout the country felt the same way. What they have found however, is limiting the instructional potential of the league by placing empahasis on winning will hurt our overall program as the middle and lower talent children just won't learn. Our job is not to win, it's to get the players ready for the next level. All the players."

Then I would suggest establishing specific goals (Rules) for each team to follow. Establish these rules at a brainstorming session. Have everyone throw their ideas out without evaluating the ideas. Once this begins the right things will come out. I would also encourage you to get a good representation of all points of view at the meeting.

Items such as (Just throwing these out):
1. Every player plays 4 out of 6 innings.
2. Every player plays every position once a week.
3. Every player bats at least 2 times per game.
4. Etc.
May be helpful

[bbjunkie]

It's amazing how coaches are sometimes more concerned about a kid's safety than the kid's own Dad.

Ursa

I'd like to chime in on this subject. Seems like every year I have one kid that I'm just afraid to put on the infield because I don't think his or her reflexes and coordination are up to the task. The first year I coached the LL majors I had a tall gangly kid who fit that description. I explained to his mother why he wasn't on the infield and she understood and agreed.

The kid really loved baseball and wanted to pitch in the worst way. The last game of the season was a blow-out one way or the other (funny how sometimes I don't remember those details) and I decided to let him pitch the last couple innings. Sure enough, he got a come backer that bounced off his skull. Fortunately it didn't do any more than raise a little bump, but since then I've trusted my instincts in these matters.

BTW, that kid went on to play BR 13-15 and his development caught up with his size and age, and he's become a pretty good player.

[tominct]

Forgive me in that I haven't educated myself about how to do all the technical things involved in properly quoting others.



And you've got to be careful because, if kids sense that it's a need that you have, they'll use it as a bargaining chip. You know, "Okay, Dad, I'll go to the batting cages with you if we can get a double scoop cone on the way back." What'n'ell is that? When I was a kid, I would have crawled through a mile of broken glass to go to a batting cage!

I actually recall spending $1.50 to take a buz ride to the cages and back, and three-town excursion that took over an hour each way, so that I could hit 5 times with the $1.50 I had left over!



And, according to the dad, the kid says he's not interested, and he in fact hasn't picked up a ball since July. The dad brought in a semi-pro pitching coach to work with him, and the kid insisted on doing things his way, wasting the dad's money and driving the coach bananas. What do you do with a kid like that? Sigh.

This is just another way the baseball gods weed out the pretenders from the contenders. One can have all the talen in the world, but that is only PART of the equation. Baseball isn't hoops, where one genetic trait can get you a free college education. Baseball takes work!

[Jake Patterson]

Baseball isn't hoops, where one genetic trait can get you a free college education. Baseball takes work!

Hmmm...Ok Tom..... I also coach basketball and just being tall (genetic trait) doesn't cut it anymore, it just gets you in the game.... I watched Andrea Buck from Stonington, CT last night. She is one of the topped ranked HS sophomores in the country. At 6'4" she handles the ball like a point guard and can shoot lights out. But... just because she's tall won't get her a look at UCONN.

Baseball is similar now... College scouts I speak with want all their ball players to be 6' 2" - 210lbs, and fast and that's before they look at the numbers.

Checked out UCONN's baseball roster. They currently have 34 players on their roster. The average height is 6' 1" and 196lbs (I believe there are 11- 6'3" or taller). Out of the 34 they only have 5 are smaller than 6' and no one shorter than 5' 9" and several of them may get cut. And as you know they do not have a baseball power house. If we look at the average D1 baseball program, you won't find too many 5' 7" 135lb players and I have seen many great small players at the HS level.

[Ursa Major]

Tom, to quote a passage, just paste it into your reply window, then "block" it (say, by dragging your cursor across it with your left mouse button down, or by left clicking at the beginning of the passage to be quoted and then clicking at the end of the passage while holding the SHIFT key down). Then, on the list of icons just above your window, click on the "Quote" icon that looks like this: http://baseball-fever.com/images/editor/quote.gif. That will put what you've marked into the quote box so it looks like this: One gentleman rarely neglects to mention, in endorsing his own coaching ability, that his C-P team actually shut out another team! He actually thinks this makes him a superior coach! "The kids were so pumped!" he would say. IN fact, he played the same player at first base each inning, and he played the same five players in the infield each inning. "I can't put a kid in the infield who's going to get hurt," he would argue.

Contrarily, I coached a team composed primarily of 7 year olds and would show up at the field with a spreadsheet listing each player's name and the position each woudl play in each inning. I felt obligated to play all of my players in the infield and the outfield.

We had a skakeup this fall in terms of leaderhip, but the gentleman to which I referred earlier was our league's C-P commissioner last year, and is an "E-Board" member and highly resistant to any proposed changes in the system.

It stinks!My son's coach was the same way in C-P, and the damnable thing is that I felt I would be a "whiner" if I complained about it. My son didn't play in the infield (except for catcher, which is worthless) all season. The crapola about kids getting hurt is just that: I assume the team uses some kind of soft-cover balls at the level. And, even if they don't, the ball isn't hit hard enough to do serious damage. Certainly, the risk of collisions is no big whoop; you ever watch 7 year olds play together? They're rough!

You've got two choices here. First, marshall some parents (particularly moms, who hate that attitude). You'd be surprised how willing they'd be to march on the "commissioner". Remember, parents who run those leagues by and large are the zealots who think their kids are budding MLB stars and who focus the leagues to make sure their kids get onto the All-Star teams, which suck money and attention away from the kids who aren't lucky enough to have their dads work their way into the league hierarchy. Don't let them run roughshod over you.

Second, most areas have several different leagues for kids that age, and some usually have a reputation for being less competition oriented than others. Pull your kid to the leagues where he can have fun, keep teaching him, and bring him back in when he's ready to kick their butts.

I know it would be frustrating, but you might think about running for the board yourself. Most leagues barely have enough candidates and very few people vote. If you round up a few parents and tell 'em what you've heard from him and intend to combat it, you'll get plenty of votes. Maybe even enough enraged parents to form a slate with you.
I actually recall spending $1.50 to take a buz ride to the cages and back, and three-town excursion that took over an hour each way, so that I could hit 5 times with the $1.50 I had left over! I hear you brother. I woulda done the same thing if there was a cage near us. I bet I never got to use a machine five times during my youth career. Then again, my best friend's dad would take us out every couple of weeks with a three or four balls and pitch to us as long as we wanted, with he and I shagging for the other. And this often was in the 100+ plus degree heat that my home town often enjoyed. He died suddenly about twenty years ago, and I never was able to go back and thank him for all he did for us. (My dad was never into sports...)