aaron foresees bonds breaking hr record

[west coast orange and black]

aaron on bonds: (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/10/27/SPGKLFEO431.DTL&type=printable) "Records are made to be broken, and I want you to understand that. Barry has been a tremendously gifted player. We can't sit here and accuse him of anything. He hasn't been found guilty of nothing. We talk about it and talk about it, and that's all I can say."
- john shea, sf chronicle staff writer, thursday, 27 october 2005

[kdiddy63]

That's what I have been saying. I think he did the roids, but has he ever got caught? No. So, until then, I say he has never taken steroids.

[runningshoes]

What did you expect Aaron to say?

Bonds is cheating me out of my record? The guy has more class than that.

[west coast orange and black]

^^^"we can't sit here and accuse him of anything."

hank aaron's tone has changed a bit from when he said this:

"first, since I played the game myself, i know that you can't put something in your body to make you hit a fastball, changeup or curveball. the only person who can do that is the good lord. but, at that age (40), you have to ask: did [bonds] accomplish all of this by rejuvenating his strength from day to day with those substances?... drugs won't help you hit the ball. but can they make you recuperate consistently enough to hit the kind of home runs that these guys are hitting? let me say this. any way you look at it, it's wrong."
-terrence moore, atlanta journal-constitution, 5 dec 2004


although aaron positioned himself in the form of a question, there is no mistaking that he - relying on alleged leaked federal grand jury testimony - thought bonds to be guilty of taking steroids.

[runningshoes]

That's what I have been saying. I think he did the roids, but has he ever got caught? No. So, until then, I say he has never taken steroids.

God, please tell me you're not a teacher.

[west coast orange and black]

^^^???

what is your contention?

[runningshoes]

^^^???

what is your contention?

Because it's scary that someone with that attitiude would be allowed to infect the minds of childern.

It's ok to do it, just don't get caught.

[kdiddy63]

What do you have against teachers? Hey, OJ didn't get caught. Lance Armstrong didn't get caught.

Speaking of steroids- I heard a rumor that an Outfielder from one of the AL playoff teams had a positive steroid test. He is now going through the appeals process, and supposedly, it is going to be released in the next few weeks.

[skeletor]

What do you have against teachers? Hey, OJ didn't get caught. Lance Armstrong didn't get caught.

Speaking of steroids- I heard a rumor that an Outfielder from one of the AL playoff teams had a positive steroid test. He is now going through the appeals process, and supposedly, it is going to be released in the next few weeks.

what does OJ have in common with Armstrong ? OJ is supposed to be a murderer....depending on what you think..Armstrong did roids..or said
the french..who are chomping at the bit, that an ' american ' has been
whumping euro butt on the tour, the past seven yrs...so to save face,
the froggies are suggesting that Armstrong did...something...

as for Bonds and whether or not..hard to say..the line is drawn by many fans..and the public...again, draw yer own conclusions....
:rolleyes:

[runningshoes]

What do you have against teachers?

I got nothing against teachers. Kids hear that kind of stuff and they think it's ok to do it, as long as they don't get caught.

[west coast orange and black]

63 did not post that it is ok to take steroids illegally. he posted his opinion of whether or not bonds - an individual - did or did not.
the two are nowhere near the same thing and ought not ever be swirled together.

............................

many teachers have "values" and beliefs that are passed on, or "infect" those they do instruct. besides, many teachers do not teach children.
why single out teachers?

[runningshoes]

Doesn't have to be a teacher neccesarily..could be anyone who influences morality in the impressionable.

Let me rephrase it.

I hope you're not in a position to display that attitude to children on a regular basis.

Better?

[west coast orange and black]

neither simpson, armstong nor bonds have been found guilty of wrongdoing in a criminal court (simpson guilty in civil court), yet many think them to be guilty of crimes.

i think that most americans have moved on past the simpson case, most of the french are not champing at the bit about armstrong (they love that he lives there half-time and speaks french fluently and promotes the sport) and most of those who presume that bonds llegally used banned substances do so without restricting their decision to the facts of the matter.

human emotion plays a large part in the three stories.

[west coast orange and black]

nothin' wrong in my book with someone not prejudging.

[west coast orange and black]

nothin' wrong in my book with someone not prejudging, which is what interpret 63's post to mean.

[runningshoes]

neither simpson, armstong nor bonds have been found guilty of wrongdoing in a criminal court (simpson guilty in civil court), yet many think them to be guilty of crimes.

i think that most americans have moved on past the simpson case, most of the french are not champing at the bit about armstrong (they love that he lives there half-time and speaks french fluently and promotes the sport) and most of those who presume that bonds llegally used banned substances do so without restricting their decision to the facts of the matter.

human emotion plays a large part in the three stories.

No offense, but I don't live my life in either denial or with my eyes closed to the obvious. I don't need others to let me know when something is a fact or not.

[west coast orange and black]

^^^ that is terrific, but that is not what this is about.

[runningshoes]

nothin' wrong in my book with someone not prejudging, which is what interpret 63's post to mean.

I think it's a little vague. Open to interpretation. He doesn't say whether it's wrong or right. Maybe he can expand on it a little.

[kdiddy63]

I don't think i have to let you know what my feelings are on steroids. That does not make a difference. All that I am saying is that according to law, Bonds has not yet been tried and/or suspended for using steroids. There was a grand jury leak, but since then, I have heard nothing. And that grand jury leak sounds a lot like the CIA leak in the news. It is against the law.

But, my point was that Bonds has NOT been found guilty of using steroids, so I am holding a main opinion that he has not taken any steroid. I still have my doubts. All signs seemingly indicate that he took the roids. However, just like all over America, 53, you are innocent until proven guilty. I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching kids the foundation of the legal system in America.

[west coast orange and black]

I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching kids the foundation of the legal system in America.

bravo.

[runningshoes]

ah..what's the use. It just dawned on me, you're both Ginats fans.

Yeah, I know..what's that got to do with it? :hp :D

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Hiding behind the "he's never been caught" idea is weak. Bonds is calculating, smart, and very careful about everything. Including what goes into his body, which is why his "I thought it was flaxseed oil" claim is very lame. There's no way he would put himself in position to be caught.

Theres too much on the line. He has the money and resources to avoid being caught. The only way he'd ever be caught is if he stepped up to the plate carrying a banner that said "I took steroids!" on it. Even then, most Bonds supporters still wouldn't believe it. They'd say that he was being blackmailed to carry the sign, or that the media is somehow out to get him. For us willing to use our brains, eyeballs, and ears, he's already carrying that sign up there, its just invisible.

His leaked testimony, the fact he wears #25 (yes, there's something to that), his physical appearance, his number increase at such a late age, his mistress' claims, his diversion attempts whenever questioned about it... it all adds up.

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: Hiding behind the "he's never been caught" idea is weak.
simply, there are those who honor our legal system and those who do not.

Bonds is calculating, smart, and very careful about everything. Including what goes into his body, which is why his "I thought it was flaxseed oil" claim is very lame. There's no way he would put himself in position to be caught. Theres too much on the line.
so, bonds is "smart" and "calculating". i guess palmeiro is uh, "not smart" and had nothing "on the line"... except the honor of being inducted into the hall of fame.
bonds is careful about what goes into his body, though, i think yer right. which apparently is why he has employed top nutritionistsand trainers over the years... and has relied upon their expertise and listened to 'em.

He has the money and resources to avoid being caught.
no amount of money circumvents the testing. it could be that whatever bonds has used has not been included in the 2003-2006 baseball agreement substance test list. i dunno.

...Even then, most Bonds supporters still wouldn't believe it. They'd say that he was being blackmailed to carry the sign, or that the media is somehow out to get him. For us willing to use our brains, eyeballs, and ears, he's already carrying that sign up there, its just invisible.
can't speak for "bonds supporters, but i find your comments condescending; you speak as though you are very familiar with me and my ethics and principles.
i do hafta give it to you, though, being able to see an invisible sign.

His leaked testimony, the fact he wears #25 (yes, there's something to that), his physical appearance, his number increase at such a late age, his mistress' claims, his diversion attempts whenever questioned about it... it all adds up.
there is nothing from the alleged federal grand jury testimony that has been revealed publicly that would make a jury reasonably conclude that bonds used banned substances. you must be using different standards.

"bonds' jersey made me do it" is pretty far out there, man, you must admit.

bonds did get bigger and heavier, you are correct. quite an indictment.

the claims of bonds' mistress are what, again? i am sitting down and have time, so please explain them.

"the media are out to get bonds" - i do not buy that. now, when it comes to the federal prosecutors, that's a much different story.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I was not directly typing to you, sorry to disappoint you. Sorry if you were offended.

Bonds' mistress had a lot to say, but from what I understand she also had a book coming out or something. So Bonds supporters can use that fact to discredit her. Much like most people discredited Canseco's book because he wanted to make money. We shouldn't look past what first hand people allege just because there's money to be made.

She just said he told her about him using steroids. And that he exhibited all the signs. The shrinking nads, back acne, unusually aggressive behavior, all that good stuff. Can't remember word for word it was awhile back.

West Coast, that invisible sign is there for you to see also, you just choose not to.
Don't hide behind the "legal system" nonsense either. Free of flaws it is not.

Money and resources will go a long way in keeping you clean. The newest, next best undetectable substance costs money. Resources; knowing the right people to get you inside information. Maybe he was tipped when he would be tested, or you know what, maybe it didn't matter since he always had undetectable stuff.

Do you think Hank will follow Bonds from game to game when his record goes down. What will he be thinking behind his fake clap and smile if Bonds breaks it? Does a person like Hank deserve for his record to be disrespected like that? Do you care about any of this? :D

[west coast orange and black]

Bonds' mistress had a lot to say, but from what I understand she also had a book coming out or something. So Bonds supporters can use that fact to discredit her. Much like most people discredited Canseco's book because he wanted to make money. We shouldn't look past what first hand people allege just because there's money to be made.

kimberly bell allegedly -- under a grant of full immunity from prosecution --testified to the federal grand jury that prior to spring training in 2000, bonds, while discussing his elbow injury, told her that he used steroids.

no matter if there is an actual book or not, the feds did not put much stock in her information. when bell revealed that she had taped hundreds of telephone messages from bonds the feds became highly suspicious of bell's motives and true knowledge.

another reason that bell's revelations were held as suspect is that she said that bonds took steroids orally. this goes contary to the "clear" and "the cream" topical substances that bonds is alleged to have used.

West Coast, that invisible sign is there for you to see also, you just choose not to.
Don't hide behind the "legal system" nonsense either. Free of flaws it is not.

when it comes to a person's name and career i do not assume much.

Money and resources will go a long way in keeping you clean. The newest, next best undetectable substance costs money. Resources; knowing the right people to get you inside information. Maybe he was tipped when he would be tested, or you know what, maybe it didn't matter since he always had undetectable stuff.

so the matter-of-fact is whittled to "maybe". yer goin' the wrong way, sultan.

Do you think Hank will follow Bonds from game to game when his record goes down. What will he be thinking behind his fake clap and smile if Bonds breaks it? Does a person like Hank deserve for his record to be disrespected like that? Do you care about any of this?

i do not get the whole following around thing. maris' family, f'rinstance - just plain silly, as if they are the show. i guess it just follows much of today's sports culture, like the announcers who think that they are why we tune in.

if aaron does clap and it is fake then what kind of person is aaron? he oughtta just do things his way. so if he makes a comment it oughtta be sincere.

not sure what you mean by "a person like hank", i do not know how well you know him and what he did during his career; not sure what you mean by "disrespected".

what is the "something" regarding "the fact [that] he wears #25"?

I was not directly typing to you, sorry to disappoint you. Sorry if you were offended.

by typing "West Coast, that invisible sign is there for you to see also, you just choose not to", you did include me in your previous post, so you did directly type to me. but understand that i am not offended.

West Coast, that invisible sign is there for you to see also, you just choose not to.
Don't hide behind the "legal system" nonsense either. Free of flaws it is not.

when it comes to a person's name and career i do not assume much.

what is the "something" regarding "the fact [that] he wears #25"?

"do you care about any of this?", you ask. well, you (magnificently, and i have applauded you for it) post about the bambino's exploits and achievements and use quotations from the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s so you must care about babe ruth.

i have read and heard more about bonds and the investigation than most and circumstances and indeed started to post here at bb-f because of the misinformation and assumptions that were and are still spread.
i happen to love baseball and i happen to care about the sport very much. but i care more about truth wherever it happens to be.
you castigate bonds fans for "not seeing" or realizing "the truth".
i challenge you to put aside how you feel about bonds and take in the known facts, then conclude.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

what does OJ have in common with Armstrong ? OJ is supposed to be a murderer....depending on what you think..Armstrong did roids..or said
the french..who are chomping at the bit, that an ' american ' has been
whumping euro butt on the tour, the past seven yrs...so to save face,
the froggies are suggesting that Armstrong did...something...

as for Bonds and whether or not..hard to say..the line is drawn by many fans..and the public...again, draw yer own conclusions....
:rolleyes:

Lance is not "accused" off taking steroids. He's "accused" of taking EPO, a drug that increases the red blood cells in a person.

[RobertHConner]

Money and resources will go a long way in keeping you clean. The newest, next best undetectable substance costs money. Resources; knowing the right people to get you inside information. Maybe he was tipped when he would be tested, or you know what, maybe it didn't matter since he always had undetectable stuff.

Do you think Hank will follow Bonds from game to game when his record goes down. What will he be thinking behind his fake clap and smile if Bonds breaks it? Does a person like Hank deserve for his record to be disrespected like that? Do you care about any of this? :D

So, the way you've worked this out is pretty clever. Bonds has no chance to've been clean. You've got it worked out where there's no evidence necessary & no one defending him in public is telling the truth. By the way, Palmeiro was making millions and millions of dollars as well...was he not privy to the rockin' undetectables?

I don't know know what Bonds did or didn't do, and neither do you. I know that he broke no existing baseball rules. I know that he passed at least four tests in the last two seasons. I know that his "mistress" appeared on Geraldo with a free pass from that master journalist:laugh , no hard questions. She's promoting a book. Why does Bonds suddenly not have the money & resources to stop this woman that he has a relationship with? You can't have it both ways. She said he wouldn't pay up to shut her up. The more reputable media has done virtually nothing with Geraldo's story...why not? I know that absolutely no one wants to investigate Tom House's contention that steroids were rampant in the late-60's & 70's. I know that there is virtually no other reason for the 1973 Braves putting up the HR totals they did (more on that in a minute). So yes, the press is out to get Bonds. Obviously he shoulders a good bit of the blame for that himself. I'm not sure what the reference about his jersey number implies...seems normal for Barry to wear father Bobby's numerals.

Bonds is under attack at this level because he is set to pass Ruth & Aaron. It's that simple. There are certainly signs that warrant suspicion, I've never denied that & I will never say that Bonds did not take anything he shouldn't have. I don't know what he puts in his body. I do know that Sammy Sosa, who actually proved he had no problem cheating (cork), gets it all glossed over. Why? I believe it's because he's not a sufficient threat to nostalgic history. He isn't going to pass 600, leaving Mays, Ruth, Aaron, and-like it or not- Bonds safe. Sosa's physical attributes, as well as McGwire's, are more convincingly chemically enhanced than Bonds. Most of the suspected players shrunk considerably since testing began...Bonds, much to ESPN's consternation, has remained physically consistant. I don't know that a man Barry's age can't get that big. I know that his workout routine has been newsworthy since the early 1990's. GQ magazine covered it in 1993. The press commented on it as early as 1990. Ellis Burks, who had retired & had nothing to lose or gain by giving his opinion on the matter, said that he has never had a teammate who worked as hard as Bonds. Can you gain that much mass with Creatine & other legal supplements, all the while working out as hard as Jerry Rice in the off-season? I don't see why not. Why did the fans keep their indignant mouths shut when Lenny Dykstra, McGwire, Canseco & Caminiti were so blatantly deformed in the early to mid-90's?

I suspect Bonds probably did take something to speed up his recovery from his 1999 injury. I can't fault a player fror wanting to get back on the field at any cost. I can't say it's really right either. I've never been in that position. If you told, in private, most people that they could increase their yearly salary by 50-300% by taking something shady what percentage of the Bonds-hunters do you think would do it? By the way, would it be all right if we had Congress take a break from War & politics to confiscate or put asteriks on the degrees of any one who used speed in their college days to cram for a test? And when is California going to have an emergency vote to replace Arnold as Governor? Without steroids he isn't Mr. Universe. If he's not Mr. Universe then he is not cast as Conan the Barbarian or The Terminator? Without his Hollywood career he is NEVER elected Governor of one of the largest states in the Union. We should also either remove from the Hall of Fame or spray paint asteriks all over the exhibits of Gaylord Perry, Whitey Ford, Yogi Berra (he knew what Ford was doing & didn't rat him out), Mickey Mantle (he exhibited too many signs of steroid use & he himself believed that was what made him better when he was seriously ill as a teenager), Don Drysdale, any members of the 1951 Giants who participated in the elaborate sign-stealing scheme (that's Durocher, Mays & Irvin), also we must remove Bob Feller for supplying his World Series champion Indians with a Gun-scope from the USS Alabama to steal signs (out from that infraction are Lou Boudreau, Larry Doby, plus Bob Lemon & Satchel Paige-pitchers who might not have used the signs). Well, you get the idea. Oh, I almost forgot. How come no one wants to go after Pete Rose. He was built like a small compact car by the late-70's. Go compare him in the 1980's to the Rose of the 60's. There's also a Greg Anderson-like smoking gun in the Rose case...do you remember why he was ratted out in the first place. It was because his gym-rat buddies were facing felony charges on steroid distribution. Rose had a motive in Cobb's record. Why was the obvious ignored for Charlie Hustle? Does he deserve the hits record? We're also pretty sure that Cobb & Tris Speaker were involved with game-fixing. String 'em up. If that ain't enough then maybe I ought to remind you that Speaker was reportedly a K-K-Klansman. Oh yeah, don't forget Fred Lynn. He hit 39 HR in 1979. This total came a year his after his previous career-high of 22 HR. His highest total after hitting 39 was 25. His explaination...why, he discovered the miracle of Nautilus of course. Lynn ha d a one-year 77.3% increase in HR, Bonds' 2000-2001 increase was 48.9%. Andre Dawson won the 1987 NL MVP after hitting 49 HR. The Hawks next highest HR total is 32...that's a 53.1% increase. And what about Roger Maris you inquire? I'll tell you. His 61 HR in 1961 was a 56.4% increase over his 39 in 1960, the next highest total of his career. Hell, Bonds wasn't even the biggest increase amongst the 40+ HR guys of 2001. That distinction belongs to Luis Gonzalez, his 57 HR representing an 83.9% increase over his 2nd best total of 31 in 2000. Remember what everyone said about ol' Gonzo..."He's so skinny we know he can't be doing 'roids, ha ha ha.". The image gets a bit murky now that we know more about Winstrol, but still Luis gets nary a negative mention in the press. By the by, Adrian Beltre hit 48 in 2004. Next best total...23 in 2003- that's a jump of 108.6% percent, but of course there were those that thought he was less suspicious than Bonds and should have won the MVP. Richard Hidalgo & George Bell also posted bigger differences in percentage increase from 2nd highest to highest HR totals. Which brings us back to Davey Johnson, Brady Anderson, Hammerin' Hank & Tom House.

Here we go...stick with me for a few more painful moments here. Davey Johnson hit 43 HR for the 1973 Braves. His next best was 18 in 1971. His high was a 138.9% increase over his #2 season. That's the highest differential for any 40 HR player in MLB history. The 3rd biggest differential belongs to Brady Anderson, who hit 50 in 1996. Anderson next highest total was 24 in 1999 (108.3% increase). Guess who managed the Orioles (Anderson's team)in 1996...it was Davey Johnson! Also playing for the 1973 Braves was Darrell Evans. He hit 41 HR in 1973. His previous best was 19 in 1972. He would never even hit the 30 HR mark until he clubbed exactly 30 w/ the 1983 Tigers. He hit 40 in 1985 & 34 in 1987. He never hit more than 29 HR in any other season. Aaron swatted 40 HR in 1973. He hit 20 the following year in just 8 fewer games (52 fewer AB). Nothing unusual about Aaron hitting 40 HR, except that his HR/AB ratio of 9.8 was the best of his career!!! His next best, 10.5, came just 2 years earlier at the not so young age of 37. So his two best ratios came at ages 37 & 39. Maybe that has something to do with him not calling Bonds out. Maybe Tom House threw out his comments to remind his holier than thou compatriots of their own era's flaws. Tom House appeared in 52 games for the 1973 Braves. All of this begs the question, are we so sure that the stars of the 60's & 70's were clean as a whistle? I don't think the evidence points in that direction at all.

It also seems ridiculous to say that Giants fans think Bonds is absolutely innocent just because we're fans of the team. There are guys on pretty much every team who give cause for suspicion. But suspecting and presenting as fact are two very different things. IMO, Roger Clemens looks just as guilty as Bonds, if not more so. Randy Johnson & Jason Schmidt & countless middle relievers have lost considerable velocity since testing began in earnest. I say that as a huge Jason Schmidt fan. There could certainly be another reason for the drop off. Everyone seems more than willing to blame Johnson's inconsistancy and lack of speed on anything but the big S. Don't tell me the press & public & Congress aren't playing favorites. Your head would have to be as deep in the sand as anyone who proclaimed that they know beyond the shadow of a doubt that Bonds is innocent.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

So, the way you've worked this out is pretty clever.

No, the way BONDS worked it out is pretty clever. Its got some people pretending they don't see what is right in front of them.

I agree with you about the other players. Many get a free pass and they shouldn't. Perhaps it has something to do with Bonds' threat to the record books, and perhaps it has something to do with him being an all-time jerk.

During the '98 HR race, people bought into Sammy and the smile. His being such a "good" guy. Thats a bunch of BS. He was a total prick behind closed doors, then smiled widely once the cameras were on.

Many pitchers as well get a free pass. The whole thing is just a mess.

[Dravecky43]

The whole thing is just a mess.

I believe that comment wins for "understatement of the year."

By the way, nice schpiel (sp?), RHC. Very interesting.

[west coast orange and black]

so, bonds is the master of the universe, and has it all worked out.
it is time, then, to put "if you do not like the system then change the system" into works.

the thing about sosa and pitchers and "other players" getting a free pass -- is this a call for action against these additional players? the ones who have been mighty vocal about bonds have not expressed the same outrage about players known to have used banned substances. this is possibly emotion overshadowing actual fact. or maybe it is simply that they have a disdain for bonds and the banned substance story is a convenient outlet.

whichever, johnny roulette has got it correct: hypocrisy.

i communicate with many people about the bonds/banned substances issue and have yet to come across anyone pretending that he does not see what is right in front of him. actually, most of them know more about the situation than most because they are willing to look at things factually rather than with emotion steering the way.

[kdiddy63]

Hey at least Sammy can't play his damn music in the locker room. Thank you Kerry Wood.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

i communicate with many people about the bonds/banned substances issue and have yet to come across anyone pretending that he does not see what is right in front of him. actually, most of them know more about the situation than most because they are willing to look at things factually rather than with emotion steering the way.

I must say, that over the past couple of years, many Bonds supporters have at least come to grips with reality. Its pretty refreshing. At first they wanted no part of it; denial, denial, denial. I credit them for the turnaround, its tough in that situation, especially when you admire someone so much for their play.

There are still many who hide behind the "he's never been caught" idea. Thats fine, because its true. Although nothing is as simple as that, and I suspect even they know that.

[west coast orange and black]

i do not understand why my words were quoted re "bonds supporters"; "grips of reality"; "denial, denial, denial". i began discussing the bonds thing with lots of people even before the federal grand jury convened in san francisco... as have a number of those with whom i speak about the issue.

[west coast orange and black]

curious minds still wanna know how the wearing of #25 is an indictment of bonds using banned substances.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

curious minds still wanna know how the wearing of #25 is an indictment of bonds using banned substances.

Never said it was an indictment of Bonds. Sort of a quirky coincidence is all. Look how many steroid users have worn the number 25. Maybe its like a secret club that only they knew or somethin', ya know. Who knows. Hang on, Oliver Stone is calling, I have to take this..... :D

[west coast orange and black]

did he telephone you in 1993?

[iPod]

Never said it was an indictment of Bonds. Sort of a quirky coincidence is all. Look how many steroid users have worn the number 25. Maybe its like a secret club that only they knew or somethin', ya know. Who knows. Hang on, Oliver Stone is calling, I have to take this..... :D

He chose #25 because his father wore it.

[west coast orange and black]

if "pursue" must include tendering a k, then i can use "indictment" re this:

"His leaked testimony, the fact he wears #25 (yes, there's something to that), his physical appearance, his number increase at such a late age, his mistress' claims, his diversion attempts whenever questioned about it...
it all adds up."

[Sultan_1895-1948]

if "pursue" must include tendering a k, then i can use "indictment" re this:

"His leaked testimony, the fact he wears #25 (yes, there's something to that), his physical appearance, his number increase at such a late age, his mistress' claims, his diversion attempts whenever questioned about it...
it all adds up."

Theres nothing untrue about all of that, except for the #25 thing perhaps. All that should make any able minded person suspicious. If it doesn't, then maybe a re-evaluation of bias should be considered.

[west coast orange and black]

Sultan_1895-1948: Theres nothing untrue about [bonds' leaked testimony, his physical appearance, his number increase at such a late age, his mistress' claims, his diversion attempts whenever questioned about it]. All that should make any able minded person suspicious. If it doesn't, then maybe a re-evaluation of bias should be considered.

bonds is bigger today than he was in his rookie season. and yes, he is bigger today than he was five seasons ago. but not answering questions from reporters means what, other than he did not answer them? what does bonds or anyone else owe reporters?

look, you do not know that there is "nothing untrue" about the federal grand jury testimony when you have not read it.
kimberly bell's claims have thus far not been corroborated nor acted upon by any authorities. what could be the reasons? what do you think of a person secretly taping more than 200 telephone messages, as is her claim? what could be that person's true motive?

rather than include more back-handed insults, many "able-minded" persons have suspicions as to whether or not bonds used banned substances but do not declare positively that bonds used. maybe it is simply a case of opinion overiding fact, but a re-evaluation of bias should be considered, indeed, when making claims that can not be substantiated.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sultan_1895-1948: Theres nothing untrue about [bonds' leaked testimony, his physical appearance, his number increase at such a late age, his mistress' claims, his diversion attempts whenever questioned about it]. All that should make any able minded person suspicious. If it doesn't, then maybe a re-evaluation of bias should be considered.

bonds is bigger today than he was in his rookie season. and yes, he is bigger today than he was five seasons ago. but not answering questions from reporters means what, other than he did not answer them? what does bonds or anyone else owe reporters?

look, you do not know that there is "nothing untrue" about the federal grand jury testimony when you have not read it.
kimberly bell's claims have thus far not been corroborated nor acted upon by any authorities. what could be the reasons? what do you think of a person secretly taping more than 200 telephone messages, as is her claim? what could be that person's true motive?

rather than include more back-handed insults, many "able-minded" persons have suspicions as to whether or not bonds used banned substances but do not declare positively that bonds used. maybe it is simply a case of opinion overiding fact, but a re-evaluation of bias should be considered, indeed, when making claims that can not be substantiated.

His appearance, his unusual performance, his known relations to certain people, his attitude toward the subject which screams guilt... it should all make you at least raise an eyebrow. If it doesn't, and you hide behind the "nothing has been proven" shield, well then; bias is over-riding logic.

[west coast orange and black]

^^^ i have suspicions of literally hundreds of players. bonds is included in that group. perhaps you have missed some of my posts along the way.

bonds' physical appearance has nothing to do with my suspicions, though. nor does his "attitude". this would be heading in the wrong direction - like the "#25 theory".

you continue to use the wording: "you hide behind the 'nothing has been proven' shield". i do not know why.
i am not hiding. more importantly, your suggestion that one of our most basic tenants of law need not be applied to everyone (or is it just bonds?) is bad news, at best.

in the end, you will never change my mind. just accept this as fact.
my position even before the story broke in the chronicle is: "i do not know whether bonds used banned substances." and if my position does change it will be because of facts. not supposition. not innuendo. not what jersey number he happens to wear. facts.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

^^^ i have suspicions of literally hundreds of players. bonds is included in that group. perhaps you have missed some of my posts along the way.

bonds' physical appearance has nothing to do with my suspicions, though. nor does his "attitude". this would be heading in the wrong direction - like the "#25 theory".

you continue to use the wording: "you hide behind the 'nothing has been proven' shield". i do not know why.
i am not hiding. more importantly, your suggestion that one of our most basic tenants of law need not be applied to everyone (or is it just bonds?) is bad news, at best.

in the end, you will never change my mind. just accept this as fact.
my position even before the story broke in the chronicle is: "i do not know whether bonds used banned substances." and if my position does change it will be because of facts. not supposition. not innuendo. not what jersey number he happens to wear. facts.

Get off the jersey number thing, that was typed tongue in cheek. Who's trying to convince anyone of anything? Not me. You're too far gone to see the truth, why try? The fact is you DO hide behind that shield, claiming that all things are pure speculation, and any accusations have no merit. Why, because Bonds hasn't come out and admitted it? Don't hold your breath for that one. The reason he won't ever admit it, is because he knows there are people like you out there, who refuse to use common sense in determining which way to lean. Thats sad.

[runningshoes]

more importantly, your suggestion that one of our most basic tenants of law need not be applied to everyone (or is it just bonds?) is bad news, at best.

I wonder what the jury in the OJ civil trial was thinking when they awarded all that money to Brown family.

What did they call that, again? He was responsible for Nicole and Ron's deaths.

How could that be? He was aquitted.

Could they possibly have thought the blinds will now be pulled up and we'll let a light shine in?

In contrast to the criminal trial, wasn't the civil trial largely ignored by the media.

Maybe a few people need stop reading the newspaper for awhile.

You can all keep watching television; those guys couldn't coax monkeys to live in trees if thier lives depended on it.

[west coast orange and black]

i have not ever claimed that the circumstances surrounding bonds are pure speculation and have no merit. what i have said repeatedly is that i do not know whether bonds used banned substances or not.

why do you continue to direct a condescending tone towards me? write to bonds directly at his web site and tell him how you feel. you continually include either name-calling or demeaning language solely because of my position regarding persons who have not been found to have used. why is this?

you said that i "refuse to use common sense in determining which way to lean", ignoring that i wrote that i have my suspicions. clearly, nothing short of me stating that bonds illegally used banned substances will please you.

'fess up now, 714 in 8399: do you actually believe that the reason bonds has not admitted to substance abuse is "because of people like [me] out there"?

thanx, though, for clearing up the #25 jersey thing. you went from "the fact he wears #25 (yes, there's something to that)" to "Theres nothing untrue about all of that, except for the #25 thing perhaps". your inclusion of "perhaps" belied the position that your comments were made tongue-in-cheek.

[runningshoes]

I'm not pointing a finger at you because I know the jury is still out for you, I was just using what you said as an example of American Justice. There are those out there who really believe, for the wrong reasons, he didn't do it.

Common sense dictates to me what I believe.

I suspect, and I could be wrong, you're hoping against hopes that he didn't, but I suspect you probably believe he did.

The ones who say he didn't do it because he didn't get caught, or in OJ's case, wasn't convicted. There's where I have a problem

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I have to be honest. I'd prefer that Bonds NOT break Aaron's record. I feel this way because if he did, it wouldn't be a joyful occasion. Instead of a great celebration, there would be too much turmoil, and accusations, and negative press about Bonds' steroid issues and pressure put on Aaron to comment on Bonds' steriod issues. It just wouldn't be any fun. And I'm a huge Bonds fan.

[runningshoes]

I have to be honest. I'd prefer that Bonds NOT break Aaron's record. I feel this way because if he did, it wouldn't be a joyful occasion. Instead of a great celebration, there would be too much turmoil, and accusations, and negative press about Bonds' steroid issues and pressure put on Aaron to comment on Bonds' steriod issues. It just wouldn't be any fun. And I'm a huge Bonds fan.

I'm right there with you. If it happens, I'll just hang my head.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

i have not ever claimed that the circumstances surrounding bonds are pure speculation and have no merit. what i have said repeatedly is that i do not know whether bonds used banned substances or not.

why do you continue to direct a condescending tone towards me? write to bonds directly at his web site and tell him how you feel. you continually include either name-calling or demeaning language solely because of my position regarding persons who have not been found to have used. why is this?

you said that i "refuse to use common sense in determining which way to lean", ignoring that i wrote that i have my suspicions. clearly, nothing short of me stating that bonds illegally used banned substances will please you.

'fess up now, 714 in 8399: do you actually believe that the reason bonds has not admitted to substance abuse is "because of people like [me] out there"?

thanx, though, for clearing up the #25 jersey thing. you went from "the fact he wears #25 (yes, there's something to that)" to "Theres nothing untrue about all of that, except for the #25 thing perhaps". your inclusion of "perhaps" belied the position that your comments were made tongue-in-cheek.

The #25 thing was said tongue in cheek at first. I was assuming upon first read, that you would have understood that. So its my fault for not putting a smiley or something after my original comment. I did though, in my follow up, say something about Oliver Stone, so you should have figured from that, that I was semi-kidding. I had to continously back off of it, because you were taking it as factual evidence, which I never intended to present it as.

Ok, I will "fess up." Let me clear it up. I don't think Bonds will, or would, ever come out and admit ANYTHING because there's too much on the line now. He's already gotten away with it, and although he's already indicted himself by becoming so gargoyle-ish and by putting up numbers that aren't "humanly" possible at that age, there is no proof.

Would you expect a bank robber who got away with it, to turn himself and all the money into police after suddenly gaining a moral bone? His immoral behavior is what made him do it in the first place, so why expect otherwise later on?

The fact is, right or wrong, that there are people like you out there, who refuse to take in what it presented before you. Just because there's no photo with a needle sticking out of his butt (which some would claim someone jammed into him unknowingly), or a picture of him rubbing the clear on, evidence is plenty. From Sheffield, to Balco, to his appearance, to his numbers at that age, to his mistress, to his attitude about the whole thing....how could you just stand behind the "there's no actual proof" wall? I just don't get it. And no, I'm not trying to "convince" you of anything. Like I said before, why try, but it doesn't hurt to just step back from being bias either way and form an educated opinion.

[west coast orange and black]

you continue to believe that everyone must agree to and use what your own personal standards are. i find it ironic that when you write this: "The fact is, right or wrong, that there are people like you out there, who refuse to take in what it presented before you." and this: "Like I said before, why try, but it doesn't hurt to just step back from being bias either way and form an educated opinion.", it is more about you than about me.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

No, I actually stated that rather clearly. You're not un-biased, and thats fine. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Done deal.

[bondsgirrrl]

Because it's scary that someone with that attitiude would be allowed to infect the minds of childern.

It's ok to do it, just don't get caught.I dont think that was his meesage. I think he is saying innocent till proven guilty. And that is something that is taught everywhere.

[wogdoggy]

His appearance, his unusual performance, his known relations to certain people, his attitude toward the subject which screams guilt... it should all make you at least raise an eyebrow. If it doesn't, and you hide behind the "nothing has been proven" shield, well then; bias is over-riding logic

Get off the jersey number thing, that was typed tongue in cheek. Who's trying to convince anyone of anything? Not me. You're too far gone to see the truth, why try? The fact is you DO hide behind that shield, claiming that all things are pure speculation, and any accusations have no merit. Why, because Bonds hasn't come out and admitted it? Don't hold your breath for that one. The reason he won't ever admit it, is because he knows there are people like you out there, who refuse to use common sense in determining which way to lean. Thats sad.


You got it man.:) :) :) :) :laugh VERY VERY SAD!

[RobertHConner]

1) I notice, and not for the first time on thise site, that the strange power surge among the 1973 Braves was completely ignored. I guess they only count as blinders if Bonds is involved.

2) People keep saying that nobody gets stronger at the tail end of their playing days.
Ted Williams had his best AB/HR ratio (100 game minimum) of his career at age 41...1960-29 HR-10.7 AB/HR...4.1 above career avg.
Hank Aaron had his best at age 39...1973-40 HR-9.8 AB/HR...6.6 better than career average
Carlton Fisk had best ratio (76 games) at age 40...1988-19 HR-13.3 AB/HR... 10 full AB above career average
Johnny Mize: best ratio at age 37 (90 games)...1950-25 HR-11.0...6.9 better than career avg.
Paul Molitor: best ratio at age 36...1993-22 HR-28.9...17.4 above career avg.
Cal Ripken: top AB/HR ratio at age 38 (86 games...1999-18 HR-18.4...8.4 above career ratio
Darrell Evans: topped out at age 40...1985-40 HR-12.6...9.1 above career avg (is it a coincidence that his other 40 HR season came when he was with Aaron & Davey Johnson in '73, the year a 39-year old Hammer hit 'em out at a greater rate than at any other point in his career?)

that last bit doesn't do anything to exonerate Bonds, I'm not interested in doing that-he could very well be guilty, but it points out the stupidity of claiming that the players from the 60's & 70's weren't up to anything in the chemical enhancement field. To state, as pure fact, that Bonds cheated is wrong. That would be an opinion-something I have absolutely no problem with. To state as fact that Aaron was forthright in his pursuit of Ruth is also wrong. He may have done it honestly, but the 1971 & 1973 power surges, especially the team surge in '73, coupled with the claims of Tom House (who is not trying to sell a book about the subject and did not name names) make it laughable that Bonds should receive absolute condemnation, while the shadows of doubt concerning the 70's are completely ignored. Conversely, it would be wrong to state beyond the shadow of a doubt that Bonds didn't do anything. We can only suspect & opine. Bud Selig said that no records should be erased (I don't agree with Goofy too terribly often, but I do on this subject--you have to be awfully sure before you eradicate a man's career). One of his reasons for this was that it would open the door to a long dark hallway that should remain closed. Look, he was a personal friend of Aaron's. I can't say specifically what he is referring to, but that sounded rather cryptic and knowing to me. Aaron has a teammate who says performance enhancers ran rampant at that time. With the exception Andy Van Slyke (who admits that he doesn't know it to be an irrefutable fact), I haven't heard any of Bonds' former teammates accuse him of much more than being a pain in the butt (even that's been refuted by guys like Todd Benzinger). I digress.

I'd like to hear some response to the 1973 Braves, Tom House, Pete Rose (behavior/late career physique) questions and/or charges. Either acknowledge the hypocrisy or open the damn door all the way, once & for all. Ted Williams could very well have been treated for steroids in Korea when he was laid up for a month and a half. Mantle actually told friends that steroids were responsible for his bulking up while in the hospital during a prolonged stay as a teenager. If he thought that steroids had healed him & made him stronger, what would have stopped him from taking them years later as a player?

Hank Aaron made a little wish early in 1974 that is 48 HR away from to pass exactly as he wished it would...Henry Aaron, Spring Training 1974: "Believe me, I'll be pulling for him. And I hope they give him as much hell as they have me.". Aaron still 1 HR shy of Ruth had been asked about the possibility of his upcoming record someday falling. I think Bonds will have the record by the end of this season, early May '07 at the latest. If he doesn't, he doesn't. If he does it I believe he will have earned it. I don't see an overwhelming movement to remove Perry, Ford or Drysdale from the HOF. Where's the indignation about Norm Cash's career season in which he admits to having cheated (cork). Don't tell me personality doesn't play a large part in who is held responsible and who we look the other way for.

One last thing, O.J. Simpson & a double murder is a wildly inappropriate analogy. Murder & spousal abuse...cheating at baseball...hmmmmm:noidea

[west coast orange and black]

rch: ...it would open the door to a long dark hallway that should remain closed.

agreed, rch. i don't even wanna go there.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Wow, I'd never heard of any stories about Aaron possibly being on PEDs before. :eek:

[west coast orange and black]

if 6 hofers are to believed, wags, lots of guys used on a regular basis.

[RobertHConner]

if 6 hofers are to believed, wags, lots of guys used on a regular basis.

I missed those details...who are the 6?

[JoeFriday]

RobertHConner Said:
"I'd like to hear some response to the 1973 Braves, Tom House, Pete Rose (behavior/late career physique) questions and/or charges. Either acknowledge the hypocrisy or open the damn door all the way, once & for all. Ted Williams could very well have been treated for steroids in Korea when he was laid up for a month and a half. Mantle actually told friends that steroids were responsible for his bulking up while in the hospital during a prolonged stay as a teenager. If he thought that steroids had healed him & made him stronger, what would have stopped him from taking them years later as a player?"


I find your statements grossly misinformed at best and borderline libel at worst. I do not recall any ailment that would require Ted Williams to use Anabolic Steroids. The only things that I'm aware that Ted suffered from in Korea was and inner ear problem and pneumonia. I have never ever heard Mantle's quote and unless there are some links provided I'm going to chaulk up as outright fiction. And The final nail in the coffin to both of these statements is that The First Anabolic Steroids created in the US were discovered by Ciba and Dr. John Zigler in 1956 and first marketed in 1958.

Also for what its worth Tom House retracted his accusation that Steroids were widespread, and He not only is selling Books but selling books on the importants of upper body strength and selling products that claim to add 5mph to your fastball. As far as I'm concerned he's a snake oil salesman and looking to not only cahs in on the publicity surrounding steroids but try to discredit them in an effort to drum up his own cottage industry.

[RobertHConner]

Steroids were created well before they were on the market here. The Army used them to put mass back on starvation victims and other sick individuals who had suffered drastic weight loss. Just because you yourself are uninformed does not make my comments slanderous. I am not at home right now, but I will give you the title & author of the Mantle bio (I believe it was called the Last American Hero) tomorrow (Saturday). I never said Williams & Mantle did anything, just that according to the rules today's atheletes are subjected to they are not beyond the scope of possibility. The argument has been spewed forth that no one gets better at hitting for power as they age. This is not true in the case of either Williams or Aaron. By the way, Williams hadn't hit his best HR/AB ratio until after you say the US had steroid access. I don't know what anyone who hasn't been caught outright did or did not do. Sick servicemen could easily been exposed to steroids by the Korean war. Long-term pneumonia will cause a person to lose a considerable amount of weight. That is a fact.

I don't believe I used the word Anabolic. I could be wrong, but I don't recall that being part of the argument.

[RobertHConner]

1935 Testosterone is first synthesized by Butenandt and Ruzicka who earn a nobel prize in chemistry for the accomplishment.
World War II German soldiers are said to be given testosterone to increase their performance on the battlefield.
1940s Testosterone is first introduced into the sporting arena.
1952 Russian olympic team performs extremely well at its first games in Helsinki. Accusations are made of steroid use, especially by the wrestling team.
1953 The first anabolic steroid '19-nortestosterone' is synthesized. It has three to five times the muscle building effects of testosterone.
1954 At the world weightlifting championships in Vienaa, a Soviet Union coach informs U.S. coach Dr. John Ziegler that the Soviet team was using testosterone. On returning home, Dr. Ziegler began using testosterone with his weightlifters.
1950s - 1970s Steroid use spreads as more and more athletes begin using in order to compete against those who are allegedly already doing so.
1975 Steroid use is banned by the International Olympic Committee.

this comes directly from http://www.erowid.org/pharms/steroids/steroids_timeline.php

You have accused me of slander, libel, delusion and/or ignorance. The evidence seems to insinuate something else entirely.

Atheletes were using this crap in the 50's. Some Military folks would have known about it earlier. Tom House has certainly written books on pitching. I guess I should have specified that he was not publishing a Jose Canseco-type novel. He has not written a tell-all book. I assumed that it would be understood that I was referring to a steroid/Bouton/Canseco book. You've still found no logical explaination for the surge in the 1973 Braves....but thanks for the vicious, blind defense. This generation is not the first to experiment with 'better living through chemistry'. The NFL & Wrestling, not to mention bodybuilders, knew about this stuff in the 1960's & '70's. Why would baseball be immune? How is Pete Rose's connection with a steroid distribution ring in the 80's so much less incriminating than Bonds' connection to Balco?

[RobertHConner]

*BTW/ damn House to hell for trying to discredit steroids!!:laugh

[RobertHConner]

I find your statements grossly misinformed at best and borderline libel at worst. I do not recall any ailment that would require Ted Williams to use Anabolic Steroids. The only things that I'm aware that Ted suffered from in Korea was and inner ear problem and pneumonia. I have never ever heard Mantle's quote and unless there are some links provided I'm going to chaulk up as outright fiction. And The final nail in the coffin to both of these statements is that The First Anabolic Steroids created in the US were discovered by Ciba and Dr. John Zigler in 1956 and first marketed in 1958.

The Mantle story comes from 1995's The Last Hero: The Life of Mickey Mantle by David Falkner (author of books on Jackie Robinson, Sadaharu Oh, Billy Martin, as well as a book on Joe Morgan that was written w/ Morgan). Simon & Schuster.
The story, pages 39-41: In 1947 Mantle suffered a kick to the shin during a football game. The injury led to osteomyelitis--a staph infection of the bone marrow. It did not heal and the following is an abbreviated excerpt from the book...

The only concern then, and for almost a year following, was whether or not Mickey would recover... (Mantle then began an unusually long stay in the hospital) Nick Ferguson was a regular visitor, too. And on his visits, he noticed that his friend was usually despondent. 'He was really sad, he was depressed. I think he was lonely because he had never been away from home before. ...The people he saw most of the time were doctors & nurses, and he wasn't getting any better & he didn't know what was happenning to him. He was scared & he didn't know what was going on.'
After futile treatments in Picher, Mantle was transferred to the Crippled Children's Hospital in Oklahoma City. Doctors told the family that Mickey's leg would have to be amputated. ...it was Lovell, though, who ultimately took charge & saved her son. Credit the discovery of penicillin, too, but she was the one who intervened on behalf of the gods.
'When they took him to the hospital in Picher, they began giving him shots of penicillin, but they didn't work,' said Max Mantle. 'Penicillin was new & they were giving him shots every 3 hours & I think he had to have 56 shots. And at that time, I don't think he weighed 115 pounds. Then they took him to Oklahoma City, and it was there that told him he was going to have to have his leg off. I don't know what his dad said, but his mom was the one who said no. His mom said there was no way in hell they were going to do that. ... And then after that, with all that penicillin, he had all these boils all over him, had boils on his arms & legs & even his eyes. And they disappeared. And I don't know if it was the penicillin, or any other medicine but then he started growing, he just grew, shot right up in less than a year and it was`all muscle. It had nothing to do with running & playing ball.'
The suddeness with which he grew may or may not have been significant. Growth spurts are obviously common at that age. What was not so common, however, was how quickly he bulked up. Nick Ferguson recalled the time & the dramatic change in his friend's physical appearance.
'Mutt used to drive Mickey back & forth from Oklahoma City, to the Children's Hospital,' he said. 'They'd leave him there for awhile & then take him back. Mick was like 130 when this started, and then he lost weight to where he may have been 100 pounds, I don't know, but then all that changed. I don't know what they were giving him. He thought maybe it was steroids, but I have no idea what it was, but he claimed that's what pumped him up to 160 pounds, he looked totaly different. I also think that that's maybe what caused him trouble in his later years. His muscles didn't develop naturally maybe, and it caused a lot of pulls and everything. It was just kinda unusual the way he grew like that in one year.'

The key to this passage is that Mickey told a friend of his that that was what he believed had bulked him up. Why would he suspect steroids if non one in baseball knew what the heck the were back then? This book came out in 1995, well before the steroid scandals in baseball even took hold. Dykstra was the only player who had really received negative attention at that point. The book is very good, not one of those blister jobs or, even worse, an empty hero-worship hack piece. It's a good read. Mantle also suffered the tendon & muscle problems generally associated with that sort of overuse. I make no statements of certainty. But if you want people to take the blinders off, then take those babies all the way off.

Ted Williams was hospitalized for 22 days early in his Korean tour. That doesn't mean much. But it does mean the possibility exists. Do the research on what our military was using & when to put weight on sickly gents abroad. The 22-day stint is covered in Leigh Montville's Ted Williams: The Biography of an American Hero.

[west coast orange and black]

it is very difficult for most of us, robert, to imagine our baseball heroes using substances to further their performance... or to just simply help them get out of bed.

the focus seems to be only on a very few select players of the current generation.

[JoeFriday]

Steroids were created well before they were on the market here. The Army used them to put mass back on starvation victims and other sick individuals who had suffered drastic weight loss. Just because you yourself are uninformed does not make my comments slanderous. I am not at home right now, but I will give you the title & author of the Mantle bio (I believe it was called the Last American Hero) tomorrow (Saturday). I never said Williams & Mantle did anything, just that according to the rules today's atheletes are subjected to they are not beyond the scope of possibility. The argument has been spewed forth that no one gets better at hitting for power as they age. This is not true in the case of either Williams or Aaron. By the way, Williams hadn't hit his best HR/AB ratio until after you say the US had steroid access. I don't know what anyone who hasn't been caught outright did or did not do. Sick servicemen could easily been exposed to steroids by the Korean war. Long-term pneumonia will cause a person to lose a considerable amount of weight. That is a fact.

I don't believe I used the word Anabolic. I could be wrong, but I don't recall that being part of the argument.

The fact that you discount the word Anabolic being part of the argument proves to me that you really do not have any idea what you are talking about. There are two basic types of steroidal substances, Catabolic and Anabolic. Anabolic steroids are the ones that do what you describe, provide tisue growth and even the ability to restore muscle mass and weight with little or no athletic activity. They are derived from altering synthetic testosterone to minimize androgenic (sexual traits) of the drug and maximize the Anabolic (Tissue building) traits. These substances are used today to treat cancer and HIV/Aids patients who suffer greatly from the wasting effects of these diseases. There are also used by Athletes to gain an athletic advantage in their respective sports.
Catabolic or cortico-steroids like cortisone actually have the opposite effect. These are substances which are basicly the body's anti inflamitory and by its nature actually breaks down muscle. If Williams and Mantle had "aledgedly" been given this type of Steroid it would have actually reduced their muscle mass where ever it was administered. This one of the many reasons why cortisone is used so sparingly even now.

It doesnt matter what sick servicement "could" have been exposed to. The bottom line is that Anabloics were not available in either of the situations you listed.

[JoeFriday]

1935 Testosterone is first synthesized by Butenandt and Ruzicka who earn a nobel prize in chemistry for the accomplishment.
World War II German soldiers are said to be given testosterone to increase their performance on the battlefield.
1940s Testosterone is first introduced into the sporting arena.
1952 Russian olympic team performs extremely well at its first games in Helsinki. Accusations are made of steroid use, especially by the wrestling team.
1953 The first anabolic steroid '19-nortestosterone' is synthesized. It has three to five times the muscle building effects of testosterone.
1954 At the world weightlifting championships in Vienaa, a Soviet Union coach informs U.S. coach Dr. John Ziegler that the Soviet team was using testosterone. On returning home, Dr. Ziegler began using testosterone with his weightlifters.
1950s - 1970s Steroid use spreads as more and more athletes begin using in order to compete against those who are allegedly already doing so.
1975 Steroid use is banned by the International Olympic Committee.

this comes directly from http://www.erowid.org/pharms/steroids/steroids_timeline.php

You have accused me of slander, libel, delusion and/or ignorance. The evidence seems to insinuate something else entirely.

Atheletes were using this crap in the 50's. Some Military folks would have known about it earlier. Tom House has certainly written books on pitching. I guess I should have specified that he was not publishing a Jose Canseco-type novel. He has not written a tell-all book. I assumed that it would be understood that I was referring to a steroid/Bouton/Canseco book. You've still found no logical explaination for the surge in the 1973 Braves....but thanks for the vicious, blind defense. This generation is not the first to experiment with 'better living through chemistry'. The NFL & Wrestling, not to mention bodybuilders, knew about this stuff in the 1960's & '70's. Why would baseball be immune? How is Pete Rose's connection with a steroid distribution ring in the 80's so much less incriminating than Bonds' connection to Balco?

The timeline that your using sites its sole refrence as www.steroidlaw.com. Did you even bother checking this source for validity. Everything I have ever come across has creditied Dr. Ziegler as the co-creator of Anabloics. The article from MS-NBC also states that as well.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5575696/
"This ended in 1955 when John Ziegler, physician for the U.S. weightlifting team, developed the first anabolic steroid."


I never mentioned anything about the 1973 braves nor did I have any issue with the use of Steroids in other sports. As far as the "power surge" for the Braves in 1973 goes its basicly three players who cause this teams HR total to be so high and of those players only one (Davey Johnson) was this performance unusually high. Leaving out the fact that Tom house retracted his statement on widespread steroid use, basicly making it and his opinion unreliable and worthless, is irresponcible and disingenuine. The fact that he has written books reguarding strenght and conditioning most definelty shows he has something to gain from this affair.

You have no proof that Athletes were "using this crap" in the 50's in reguards to Anabolic steroids. So until you come up with it please educate yourself.

[JoeFriday]

The Mantle story comes from 1995's The Last Hero: The Life of Mickey Mantle by David Falkner (author of books on Jackie Robinson, Sadaharu Oh, Billy Martin, as well as a book on Joe Morgan that was written w/ Morgan). Simon & Schuster.
The story, pages 39-41: In 1947 Mantle suffered a kick to the shin during a football game. The injury led to osteomyelitis--a staph infection of the bone marrow. It did not heal and the following is an abbreviated excerpt from the book...

The only concern then, and for almost a year following, was whether or not Mickey would recover... (Mantle then began an unusually long stay in the hospital) Nick Ferguson was a regular visitor, too. And on his visits, he noticed that his friend was usually despondent. 'He was really sad, he was depressed. I think he was lonely because he had never been away from home before. ...The people he saw most of the time were doctors & nurses, and he wasn't getting any better & he didn't know what was happenning to him. He was scared & he didn't know what was going on.'
After futile treatments in Picher, Mantle was transferred to the Crippled Children's Hospital in Oklahoma City. Doctors told the family that Mickey's leg would have to be amputated. ...it was Lovell, though, who ultimately took charge & saved her son. Credit the discovery of penicillin, too, but she was the one who intervened on behalf of the gods.
'When they took him to the hospital in Picher, they began giving him shots of penicillin, but they didn't work,' said Max Mantle. 'Penicillin was new & they were giving him shots every 3 hours & I think he had to have 56 shots. And at that time, I don't think he weighed 115 pounds. Then they took him to Oklahoma City, and it was there that told him he was going to have to have his leg off. I don't know what his dad said, but his mom was the one who said no. His mom said there was no way in hell they were going to do that. ... And then after that, with all that penicillin, he had all these boils all over him, had boils on his arms & legs & even his eyes. And they disappeared. And I don't know if it was the penicillin, or any other medicine but then he started growing, he just grew, shot right up in less than a year and it was`all muscle. It had nothing to do with running & playing ball.'
The suddeness with which he grew may or may not have been significant. Growth spurts are obviously common at that age. What was not so common, however, was how quickly he bulked up. Nick Ferguson recalled the time & the dramatic change in his friend's physical appearance.
'Mutt used to drive Mickey back & forth from Oklahoma City, to the Children's Hospital,' he said. 'They'd leave him there for awhile & then take him back. Mick was like 130 when this started, and then he lost weight to where he may have been 100 pounds, I don't know, but then all that changed. I don't know what they were giving him. He thought maybe it was steroids, but I have no idea what it was, but he claimed that's what pumped him up to 160 pounds, he looked totaly different. I also think that that's maybe what caused him trouble in his later years. His muscles didn't develop naturally maybe, and it caused a lot of pulls and everything. It was just kinda unusual the way he grew like that in one year.'

The key to this passage is that Mickey told a friend of his that that was what he believed had bulked him up. Why would he suspect steroids if non one in baseball knew what the heck the were back then? This book came out in 1995, well before the steroid scandals in baseball even took hold. Dykstra was the only player who had really received negative attention at that point. The book is very good, not one of those blister jobs or, even worse, an empty hero-worship hack piece. It's a good read. Mantle also suffered the tendon & muscle problems generally associated with that sort of overuse. I make no statements of certainty. But if you want people to take the blinders off, then take those babies all the way off.

Ted Williams was hospitalized for 22 days early in his Korean tour. That doesn't mean much. But it does mean the possibility exists. Do the research on what our military was using & when to put weight on sickly gents abroad. The 22-day stint is covered in Leigh Montville's Ted Williams: The Biography of an American Hero.


Nothing in either one of these articles alludes to Anabloic steroid use by either one of these athletes. Its just blind speculation by yourself. Its also wrong because in 1947 when Mantle was in the hospital and in 1952 which is at the begining of Williams Korean Tour were again before Anabloics were created. And you jump to the conclusion that Anabolics could have helped Mantle when the much more likely conclusion is that a 16-17 year old could have not only recovered rapidly once the effects of the infection subsided but undergone a growth spurt that is common among boys of that age.

Not only that but your previous quote was the following "Mantle actually told friends that steroids were responsible for his bulking up while in the hospital during a prolonged stay as a teenager." NOWHERE in that article did a direct quote from Mickey Mantle attributing his recovery to Anabolic steroids.
Untill I see you reproduce that quote I will infact continue to accuse you of slander, libel, delusion and/or ignorance.

Debating and arguing facts are one thing. Making up quotes and defaming the reputation of former players with nothing more than blatant speculation at the very best is really very sad.

[RobertHConner]

Nothing in either one of these articles alludes to Anabloic steroid use by either one of these athletes. Its just blind speculation by yourself. Its also wrong because in 1947 when Mantle was in the hospital and in 1952 which is at the begining of Williams Korean Tour were again before Anabloics were created. And you jump to the conclusion that Anabolics could have helped Mantle when the much more likely conclusion is that a 16-17 year old could have not only recovered rapidly once the effects of the infection subsided but undergone a growth spurt that is common among boys of that age.

Not only that but your previous quote was the following "Mantle actually told friends that steroids were responsible for his bulking up while in the hospital during a prolonged stay as a teenager." NOWHERE in that article did a direct quote from Mickey Mantle attributing his recovery to Anabolic steroids.
Untill I see you reproduce that quote I will infact continue to accuse you of slander, libel, delusion and/or ignorance.

Debating and arguing facts are one thing. Making up quotes and defaming the reputation of former players with nothing more than blatant speculation at the very best is really very sad.

Mantle's friend, Nick Ferguson, is directly quoted inm that passage. He is quoted saying that Mantle told him that. Accuse whomever you like of ignorance, but you are the one who can't read a quote right in front of you. I'll be more than happy to look into military use of anabolic steroids. If you are right then I will certainly acknowledge my mistake. I didn't say that Williams used steroids. I said that Mantle told a friend he believed that was what he was given. Ferguson would have not had any reason to make that up that I can see. Steroids wasn't a storm cloud over baseball when that research for that book was being conducted.

[RobertHConner]

"Anabolic steroids can be traced back to as early as the 1930's, before the term steroid was even used. In the 1930's, a team of scientists was able to create a synthetic form of testosterone (a male hormone) to help treat men who were unable to produce enough of the hormone for normal growth, development & sexual functioning. Later, during World War II it was found that this artificial form of testosterone could be used to help malnourished soldiers gain weight & improve performance. After the war, athletes began to use steroids to enhance their performance in competition. ..."

that is from http://www.steroids-info.com/history.htm.

Enter Anabolic Steroids
The use of anabolic steroids by athletes is relatively new. Testosterone was first synthesized in the 1930's and was introduced into the sporting arena in the 1940's and 1950's.

When the Russian weight lifting team thanks, in part, to synthetic testosterone-walked off with a pile of medals at the 1952 Olympics, an American physician determined that U. S. competitors should have the same advantage.- from http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/ster01.htm

Those I just found, both supporting the timeline I have quoted and seriously challenging the bogus timeline that Joe Friday would have me believe. That being said, I'm going to bed. I'll be more than happy to continue tomorrow, including perusing the sites supplied by Mr. Friday. Seems strange that multiple sites support both of our positions so thoroughly.

[JoeFriday]

Mantle's friend, Nick Ferguson, is directly quoted inm that passage. He is quoted saying that Mantle told him that. Accuse whomever you like of ignorance, but you are the one who can't read a quote right in front of you. I'll be more than happy to look into military use of anabolic steroids. If you are right then I will certainly acknowledge my mistake. I didn't say that Williams used steroids. I said that Mantle told a friend he believed that was what he was given. Ferguson would have not had any reason to make that up that I can see. Steroids wasn't a storm cloud over baseball when that research for that book was being conducted.


Robert what it comes down to is it's second hand information. There is nothing there that is directly quoted from Mantle himself. Its a recolection of a conversation. And again like I have pointed out Its a incorrect assumption on the part of Nick Ferguson as well because the Anabloics were simply not around back then. You dismiss Andy Van Slykes comments on knowing Bonds was on Steroids without actually having seen him doing them, but you endorse a statement from a friend of Mickey Mantle as evidence that he may have done steroids when in the very same quote they state "I have no idea what it was". Did you know that Anabolic steroids administered during puberty can actually stunt a persons growth. Going on that evidence If a 16-17 year old Mantle had been given Anabolics he might never have grown into the 6' 200 lbs frame that allowed him to hit for such power. Its not fair to a player that isnt around to defend himself for you say something that adversely effects his name and then speculate what he might have done without doign any research into it.

And I know you didn't say Williams used steroids but you speculated that and again its an impossiblity based on availability. You didn't even provide a reason why he was in the hospital int he first place. I 'd highly doubt that it would be military procedure to give Anabloics to whoever showed up at a military hospital. And what about now? We could all speculate that an athlete gets steroids every time they see a doctor now adays. Just because its at least possible now doesn't make it anywhere near factual. This type of baseless speculation is worhtless and damages reputations needlessly.

I agree with you that there is a Steroid cloud that hangs over everyone in baseball now past and present. My point is that you have to be damn sure about your facts before you go speculationg about a player. You were trying to make a point that past players could have been using steroids. If you want to speculate about steroids in the history of baseball thats fine. I'd be moronic to say that no ballplayer had ever done them before House or Canseco. Hell If I had to put money on it I would say you were right about Rose. But you need to see the difference between drawing conclussions about players who have Admitted to their use or have overwhemng evidence regarding their use and speculation about those who have barely any credible evidence if any in their history.

[JoeFriday]

"Anabolic steroids can be traced back to as early as the 1930's, before the term steroid was even used. In the 1930's, a team of scientists was able to create a synthetic form of testosterone (a male hormone) to help treat men who were unable to produce enough of the hormone for normal growth, development & sexual functioning. Later, during World War II it was found that this artificial form of testosterone could be used to help malnourished soldiers gain weight & improve performance. After the war, athletes began to use steroids to enhance their performance in competition. ..."

that is from http://www.steroids-info.com/history.htm.

Enter Anabolic Steroids
The use of anabolic steroids by athletes is relatively new. Testosterone was first synthesized in the 1930's and was introduced into the sporting arena in the 1940's and 1950's.

When the Russian weight lifting team thanks, in part, to synthetic testosterone-walked off with a pile of medals at the 1952 Olympics, an American physician determined that U. S. competitors should have the same advantage.- from http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/ster01.htm

Those I just found, both supporting the timeline I have quoted and seriously challenging the bogus timeline that Joe Friday would have me believe. That being said, I'm going to bed. I'll be more than happy to continue tomorrow, including perusing the sites supplied by Mr. Friday. Seems strange that multiple sites support both of our positions so thoroughly.

Robert the two sites you just posted support my argument that Dr. Zigler and Ciba created the first Anabolic Steroid Dianabol in 1956 and later released it in 1958. My problem with your first timeline was the listing "1953 The first anabolic steroid '19-nortestosterone' is synthesized. It has three to five times the muscle building effects of testosterone."
As far as I'm aware of 19-nortestosterone is a steroid precursor or what some people call prohormones. These are not Anabolics and their effectiveness is in doubt at best.
My point was and still is that Anabolics were not available during the times when Mantle was hospitalized and Williams was in Korea.
In Will Carolls book the Juice he stresses the fact that neither the US nor the Solviets had Anabolics during the 1952 or 1956 olympics. The Solviets had rounded up groups of German scientists that had defected to Russia after the war. According to Dr. Zigler they still didn't have Anabolics in 1952 or in 1956 but were using testosterone extensively.

Its an area of information on the Web that is rife with misinformation and confusion. I have never found anything credible that predates the creation of Dianabol. And the difference between the effects of testosterone and Anabolics are so great that athletes today would rather take veterinary Anabolics than Testosterone. And I would be more than happy to look at any information you might find.

[RobertHConner]

My point was never whether or not Mantle was treated with steroids in 1947. The issue was that he appears to have been under that impression when he told-if Ferguson is being honest- his friend years later. The book does not contend that Mantle was using the term in 1947-48. My point has always been that Mantle thought something bulked him up and saved his health. If he told a friend that it was steroids, don't you have to wonder why he would have thought that. If his friend isn't lying outright, then by the time Mantle made the comment to him he would obviously hav been aware of the 'benefits" of steroids. Why else would he have thought that the doctorshad used that, thereby causing his accelerated buking up. If he believed steroids could do such a thing, what would have prevented a man known to have made more than a few unhealthy decisions from taking a substance that woud either a) give him more power, b) heal him, and/or C) help him to play through injuries. Ferguson's recollections would have been included in the book with or without the steroid element. The actual injury, hospital stay, and avoided amutation...not to mention his first prolonged separation from his family, would guaranteed the section was bookworthy whether or not steroids were mentioned. The fact that Max Mantle also recalls the transformation as abnormally extreme lends some credibility to Ferguson's assertion. Falkner did not make an issue of the steroid comment. I don't recall it coming up again in the book.

Adapted from the National Institutes of Health by HealthGate Editorial Staff

What are anabolic steroids?
Anabolic steroids are synthetic substances related to the male sex hormones (androgens). They promote the growth of skeletal muscle (anabolic effects) and the development of male sexual characteristics (androgenic effects), and also have some other effects. The proper term for these compounds is "anabolic-androgenic" steroids.

Anabolic steroids were developed in the late 1930s primarily to treat hypogonadism, a condition in which the testes do not produce sufficient testosterone for normal growth, development, and sexual functioning. The primary medical uses of these compounds are to treat delayed puberty, some types of impotence, and wasting of the body caused by HIV infection or other diseases. During the 1930s, scientists discovered that anabolic steroids could facilitate the growth of skeletal muscle in laboratory animals. This led to use of the compounds first by bodybuilders and weightlifters, and then by athletes in other sports. ,,,

What are the health consequences of steroid abuse?
Anabolic steroid abuse has been associated with a wide range of adverse side effects. Some are physically unattractive, such as acne and breast development in men. Others are life threatening, such as heart attacks and liver cancer. Most are reversible if the abuser stops taking the drugs, but some are permanent.--source: http://www.swedish.org/17944.cfm

Why is it that every site I come across is saying that Anabolic (official & unofficial) steroids existed a good ten to twenty years before you keep swearing that they did? They may have been sanctioned, patented, regulated or however you want to put it, but they were clearly around before then.

I'll be back momentarily. I'm going to go research this some more. I would also like to tone the personal aspect of this debate down. I have a strong tendency to come at someone with both guns blazing when I believe my integrity & honesty are under attack. I'm interested in all sides of this story. At the same time Russian weightlifters, wrestlers & the military had access to something suspiciously like steroids by the start of the Korean war. That has been well-documented. How many studies will it take to give you pause to reflect on the accuracy of these earlier dates. Mantle also had signs, both short term--chronic muscle & tendon pulls & tears--& long-term (liver cancer, moodiness, depression). Of course that doesn't seal the dealat all. My point early in this thread was to show the blind eye being turned to the exposure of earlier baseball generations to PEDs (still no one can justify the weird '73 Braves stats). This generartion is being discounted & crucified for circumstantial evidence. You're demanding a direct quote from someone who passed away before this maelstrom erupted as the only acceptible sign of proof. Why is the standardof proof down to innuendo, rumor, circumstantional & guilt by association for the 90's and beyond?

[RobertHConner]

My point was and still is that Anabolics were not available during the times when Mantle was hospitalized and Williams was in Korea.
In Will Carolls book the Juice he stresses the fact that neither the US nor the Solviets had Anabolics during the 1952 or 1956 olympics. The Solviets had rounded up groups of German scientists that had defected to Russia after the war. According to Dr. Zigler they still didn't have Anabolics in 1952 or in 1956 but were using testosterone extensively.

Doesn't it stand to reason that Zigler had a very serious ulterior motive to discredit those who might have developed anything before him. Is that not unlike Sammy Studabaker discrediting Henry Ford, claiming that he "beat him to it" 5 or 6 years later. History was at stake. I can certainly see a reason for Zigler to write off those who came earlier.

I'm apt to believe the many Medical essays & articles on the Web over one book and one Doctor whose date w/ history was being threatened. I suppose it's possible, though highly unlikely, that everyone else in the internet medical community is wrong & these two guys, a generation or two or three apart are right.

[JoeFriday]

My point was never whether or not Mantle was treated with steroids in 1947. The issue was that he appears to have been under that impression when he told-if Ferguson is being honest- his friend years later. The book does not contend that Mantle was using the term in 1947-48. My point has always been that Mantle thought something bulked him up and saved his health. If he told a friend that it was steroids, don't you have to wonder why he would have thought that. If his friend isn't lying outright, then by the time Mantle made the comment to him he would obviously hav been aware of the 'benefits" of steroids. Why else would he have thought that the doctorshad used that, thereby causing his accelerated buking up. If he believed steroids could do such a thing, what would have prevented a man known to have made more than a few unhealthy decisions from taking a substance that woud either a) give him more power, b) heal him, and/or C) help him to play through injuries. Ferguson's recollections would have been included in the book with or without the steroid element. The actual injury, hospital stay, and avoided amutation...not to mention his first prolonged separation from his family, would guaranteed the section was bookworthy whether or not steroids were mentioned. The fact that Max Mantle also recalls the transformation as abnormally extreme lends some credibility to Ferguson's assertion. Falkner did not make an issue of the steroid comment. I don't recall it coming up again in the book.

Adapted from the National Institutes of Health by HealthGate Editorial Staff

What are anabolic steroids?
Anabolic steroids are synthetic substances related to the male sex hormones (androgens). They promote the growth of skeletal muscle (anabolic effects) and the development of male sexual characteristics (androgenic effects), and also have some other effects. The proper term for these compounds is "anabolic-androgenic" steroids.

Anabolic steroids were developed in the late 1930s primarily to treat hypogonadism, a condition in which the testes do not produce sufficient testosterone for normal growth, development, and sexual functioning. The primary medical uses of these compounds are to treat delayed puberty, some types of impotence, and wasting of the body caused by HIV infection or other diseases. During the 1930s, scientists discovered that anabolic steroids could facilitate the growth of skeletal muscle in laboratory animals. This led to use of the compounds first by bodybuilders and weightlifters, and then by athletes in other sports. ,,,

What are the health consequences of steroid abuse?
Anabolic steroid abuse has been associated with a wide range of adverse side effects. Some are physically unattractive, such as acne and breast development in men. Others are life threatening, such as heart attacks and liver cancer. Most are reversible if the abuser stops taking the drugs, but some are permanent.--source: http://www.swedish.org/17944.cfm

Why is it that every site I come across is saying that Anabolic (official & unofficial) steroids existed a good ten to twenty years before you keep swearing that they did? They may have been sanctioned, patented, regulated or however you want to put it, but they were clearly around before then.

I'll be back momentarily. I'm going to go research this some more. I would also like to tone the personal aspect of this debate down. I have a strong tendency to come at someone with both guns blazing when I believe my integrity & honesty are under attack. I'm interested in all sides of this story. At the same time Russian weightlifters, wrestlers & the military had access to something suspiciously like steroids by the start of the Korean war. That has been well-documented. How many studies will it take to give you pause to reflect on the accuracy of these earlier dates. Mantle also had signs, both short term--chronic muscle & tendon pulls & tears--& long-term (liver cancer, moodiness, depression). Of course that doesn't seal the dealat all. My point early in this thread was to show the blind eye being turned to the exposure of earlier baseball generations to PEDs (still no one can justify the weird '73 Braves stats). This generartion is being discounted & crucified for circumstantial evidence. You're demanding a direct quote from someone who passed away before this maelstrom erupted as the only acceptible sign of proof. Why is the standardof proof down to innuendo, rumor, circumstantional & guilt by association for the 90's and beyond?

Robert most if not everyone of the points you make about Mantle can be explained away by something that is far more likely than him taking Steroids.
His well documented Alcohol Abuse could have accounted for everyone of his short term and long term health problems. And again I call into issue the credibility of the witnesses, not on a believeability issue, but on their commenting on medical effects of Mantle's treatment. Max Mantle is quoted as saying the Penicillin "didn't work" because they were injecting him so often. The problem with this is pencillin NEEDED to be injected this often because it cleared the body so fast back then. If he couldn't understand that what position is he or anyone else back then to speculate on possible steroid use?

As far as the sites you found I can say with a degree of certainty that they are describing Testosterone when they say Anabolic steroids were discovered in the 30's. Testosterone is still used today to treat hypogonadisum. Infact Anabolic Steroids are actually known today to cause hypogonadisum. Like I said before the net is rife with misinformation on this topic. Testosterone is even refered to in some circles as TNAS or The Natural Anabolic Steroid. Make no Mistake, sythetic Testosterone is not the same as Anabolic steroids as none of the androgenic (sex linked) effects are minimized in the least.

Here is another site that supports my claims. http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs/drugculture/drugorigins/anabolicsteroids
As I have said before Anabolics are sythetic testosterone that has maximized the Anabolic qualities while trying to eliminate the androgenic compounds thus redusing the sex linked side effects. If you read futher down on that sweadish site you will see that they mention androstenedione. You will recall that this is the famous Andro that McGwire used. That must be an older posting because that substance is now illegal. Andro its interesting to note that the white house did a study and found on its own has littel or no effect. But as the east germans in the late 50's-early 60's found out, when taken with anabolics, Andro actually temporarily boosts the effectiveness of the Anabolics.

[JoeFriday]

Doesn't it stand to reason that Zigler had a very serious ulterior motive to discredit those who might have developed anything before him. Is that not unlike Sammy Studabaker discrediting Henry Ford, claiming that he "beat him to it" 5 or 6 years later. History was at stake. I can certainly see a reason for Zigler to write off those who came earlier.

I'm apt to believe the many Medical essays & articles on the Web over one book and one Doctor whose date w/ history was being threatened. I suppose it's possible, though highly unlikely, that everyone else in the internet medical community is wrong & these two guys, a generation or two or three apart are right.


Robert thats a good point but its also known that Dr. Zeigler later widley regretted ever coming up with these substances because of all the harmful sideffects that they cause, side effects that either he was not aware of at the time or chose to ignore in his hunt for a substance that would put him over the top of his russian adversaries. When the Russians/East germans first developed Anabolics is not known exactly but it can be fairly safe to assume it was after the 1956 olympic games as they were still useing Testosterone in their athletes at the time. And I think that we can both agree, in the unlikely situation that such Russian substances existed, that Mantle nor Williams would have had access to any Solviet developed anabolics substances during the periods in question.

Here are a couple more links to support my assertations.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=cache:EVF1fLVlGooJ:www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/JSH/JSH1987/JSH1401/jsh1401g.pdf+%22dr.+john+ziegler%22
(end of page 7 begining of page 8)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=cache:1iEV7croVbAJ:www.medco-athletics.com/education/ErgogenicAids.pdf+%22dr.+john+ziegler%22
(page 2)

[runningshoes]

Steroids were first developed in the 1930's. Germans started experimenting with them on dogs and later on their own soldiers during the second world war.

Russian and European athletes started using them in the 1950's, most notably during the 1952 Olympics when the Russian weight lifting team took home a crap load of gold medals.

[RobertHConner]

I fully agree and appreciate that alcohol could and probably does explain much of what ailed Mantle. Having been a rather excessive drinker myself, I don't know that it would explain the chronic tendon and muscle issues. Drunks tend not to suffer that sort of injury as often has people who don't drink. The running joke is that drunks are made of rubber. Would alcohol abuse explain the leg troubles? I'm not an expert on that subject, just very expeienced in that particular field.

[JoeFriday]

I fully agree and appreciate that alcohol could and probably does explain much of what ailed Mantle. Having been a rather excessive drinker myself, I don't know that it would explain the chronic tendon and muscle issues. Drunks tend not to suffer that sort of injury as often has people who don't drink. The running joke is that drunks are made of rubber. Would alcohol abuse explain the leg troubles? I'm not an expert on that subject, just very expeienced in that particular field.

LOL Robert I'm glad to see your a fellow Alcohol expert. Honestly The most I heard about Booze causeing athletes problems was when my college rugby coach had a sports medicine expert explain to us some thing about Beer after games hurting recouperative processes. We were either drunk or hung over so we didn't pay much attention. But I assume that the constant state of dehydration and what not would have left Mantle in a state that would have been far more susceptable to injury. We might have to put in some long nights of "research" to verify those theories however.

[JoeFriday]

OH and BTW i agree with you completely on the Subject of the current players being subjected to unfair scrutiny. I thinkt that you have to give most players the benifit of a doubt until the evidence either becomes overwhelming or specificly damning, or there is infact a admission of some kind. Thats why I find Tom House's statements so confounding and unreliable. Not only did he admit to something without any provocation or need but he then recants his assertation that anyone else did steroids but himself. BTW I have seen pictures of Tom House and nowhere does he ever look like he is the 230 lbs he claimed to achieve. He says that Steroids never helped his fastball but he peddles a video in which McGwire and Giambi's trainer are advertised to share their "workouts" and add 25% more power to your swing. It also claims that it will ad 5 mph to your Fastball. It all centers on addding strenght to your upperbody back arms abs etc.. but steroids don't help? The Hypocracy of it is just to much to ignore

[cavalier1968]

Bonds' mistress had a lot to say, but from what I understand she also had a book coming out or something. So Bonds supporters can use that fact to discredit her. Much like most people discredited Canseco's book because he wanted to make money. We shouldn't look past what first hand people allege just because there's money to be made.

kimberly bell allegedly -- under a grant of full immunity from prosecution --testified to the federal grand jury that prior to spring training in 2000, bonds, while discussing his elbow injury, told her that he used steroids.

no matter if there is an actual book or not, the feds did not put much stock in her information. when bell revealed that she had taped hundreds of telephone messages from bonds the feds became highly suspicious of bell's motives and true knowledge.

another reason that bell's revelations were held as suspect is that she said that bonds took steroids orally. this goes contary to the "clear" and "the cream" topical substances that bonds is alleged to have used.

West Coast, that invisible sign is there for you to see also, you just choose not to.
Don't hide behind the "legal system" nonsense either. Free of flaws it is not.

when it comes to a person's name and career i do not assume much.

Money and resources will go a long way in keeping you clean. The newest, next best undetectable substance costs money. Resources; knowing the right people to get you inside information. Maybe he was tipped when he would be tested, or you know what, maybe it didn't matter since he always had undetectable stuff.

so the matter-of-fact is whittled to "maybe". yer goin' the wrong way, sultan.

Do you think Hank will follow Bonds from game to game when his record goes down. What will he be thinking behind his fake clap and smile if Bonds breaks it? Does a person like Hank deserve for his record to be disrespected like that? Do you care about any of this?

i do not get the whole following around thing. maris' family, f'rinstance - just plain silly, as if they are the show. i guess it just follows much of today's sports culture, like the announcers who think that they are why we tune in.

if aaron does clap and it is fake then what kind of person is aaron? he oughtta just do things his way. so if he makes a comment it oughtta be sincere.

not sure what you mean by "a person like hank", i do not know how well you know him and what he did during his career; not sure what you mean by "disrespected".

what is the "something" regarding "the fact [that] he wears #25"?

I was not directly typing to you, sorry to disappoint you. Sorry if you were offended.

by typing "West Coast, that invisible sign is there for you to see also, you just choose not to", you did include me in your previous post, so you did directly type to me. but understand that i am not offended.

West Coast, that invisible sign is there for you to see also, you just choose not to.
Don't hide behind the "legal system" nonsense either. Free of flaws it is not.

when it comes to a person's name and career i do not assume much.

what is the "something" regarding "the fact [that] he wears #25"?

"do you care about any of this?", you ask. well, you (magnificently, and i have applauded you for it) post about the bambino's exploits and achievements and use quotations from the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s so you must care about babe ruth.

i have read and heard more about bonds and the investigation than most and circumstances and indeed started to post here at bb-f because of the misinformation and assumptions that were and are still spread.
i happen to love baseball and i happen to care about the sport very much. but i care more about truth wherever it happens to be.
you castigate bonds fans for "not seeing" or realizing "the truth".
i challenge you to put aside how you feel about bonds and take in the known facts, then conclude.

I guess we do know now...........His whole career is a sham!

CAv

[cavalier1968]

so, bonds is the master of the universe, and has it all worked out.
it is time, then, to put "if you do not like the system then change the system" into works.

the thing about sosa and pitchers and "other players" getting a free pass -- is this a call for action against these additional players? the ones who have been mighty vocal about bonds have not expressed the same outrage about players known to have used banned substances. this is possibly emotion overshadowing actual fact. or maybe it is simply that they have a disdain for bonds and the banned substance story is a convenient outlet.

whichever, johnny roulette has got it correct: hypocrisy.

i communicate with many people about the bonds/banned substances issue and have yet to come across anyone pretending that he does not see what is right in front of him. actually, most of them know more about the situation than most because they are willing to look at things factually rather than with emotion steering the way.

No emotions now......hes a steeeeroid junkie!

CAv

[cavalier1968]

1) I notice, and not for the first time on thise site, that the strange power surge among the 1973 Braves was completely ignored. I guess they only count as blinders if Bonds is involved.

2) People keep saying that nobody gets stronger at the tail end of their playing days.
Ted Williams had his best AB/HR ratio (100 game minimum) of his career at age 41...1960-29 HR-10.7 AB/HR...4.1 above career avg.
Hank Aaron had his best at age 39...1973-40 HR-9.8 AB/HR...6.6 better than career average
Carlton Fisk had best ratio (76 games) at age 40...1988-19 HR-13.3 AB/HR... 10 full AB above career average
Johnny Mize: best ratio at age 37 (90 games)...1950-25 HR-11.0...6.9 better than career avg.
Paul Molitor: best ratio at age 36...1993-22 HR-28.9...17.4 above career avg.
Cal Ripken: top AB/HR ratio at age 38 (86 games...1999-18 HR-18.4...8.4 above career ratio
Darrell Evans: topped out at age 40...1985-40 HR-12.6...9.1 above career avg (is it a coincidence that his other 40 HR season came when he was with Aaron & Davey Johnson in '73, the year a 39-year old Hammer hit 'em out at a greater rate than at any other point in his career?)

that last bit doesn't do anything to exonerate Bonds, I'm not interested in doing that-he could very well be guilty, but it points out the stupidity of claiming that the players from the 60's & 70's weren't up to anything in the chemical enhancement field. To state, as pure fact, that Bonds cheated is wrong. That would be an opinion-something I have absolutely no problem with. To state as fact that Aaron was forthright in his pursuit of Ruth is also wrong. He may have done it honestly, but the 1971 & 1973 power surges, especially the team surge in '73, coupled with the claims of Tom House (who is not trying to sell a book about the subject and did not name names) make it laughable that Bonds should receive absolute condemnation, while the shadows of doubt concerning the 70's are completely ignored. Conversely, it would be wrong to state beyond the shadow of a doubt that Bonds didn't do anything. We can only suspect & opine. Bud Selig said that no records should be erased (I don't agree with Goofy too terribly often, but I do on this subject--you have to be awfully sure before you eradicate a man's career). One of his reasons for this was that it would open the door to a long dark hallway that should remain closed. Look, he was a personal friend of Aaron's. I can't say specifically what he is referring to, but that sounded rather cryptic and knowing to me. Aaron has a teammate who says performance enhancers ran rampant at that time. With the exception Andy Van Slyke (who admits that he doesn't know it to be an irrefutable fact), I haven't heard any of Bonds' former teammates accuse him of much more than being a pain in the butt (even that's been refuted by guys like Todd Benzinger). I digress.

I'd like to hear some response to the 1973 Braves, Tom House, Pete Rose (behavior/late career physique) questions and/or charges. Either acknowledge the hypocrisy or open the damn door all the way, once & for all. Ted Williams could very well have been treated for steroids in Korea when he was laid up for a month and a half. Mantle actually told friends that steroids were responsible for his bulking up while in the hospital during a prolonged stay as a teenager. If he thought that steroids had healed him & made him stronger, what would have stopped him from taking them years later as a player?

Hank Aaron made a little wish early in 1974 that is 48 HR away from to pass exactly as he wished it would...Henry Aaron, Spring Training 1974: "Believe me, I'll be pulling for him. And I hope they give him as much hell as they have me.". Aaron still 1 HR shy of Ruth had been asked about the possibility of his upcoming record someday falling. I think Bonds will have the record by the end of this season, early May '07 at the latest. If he doesn't, he doesn't. If he does it I believe he will have earned it. I don't see an overwhelming movement to remove Perry, Ford or Drysdale from the HOF. Where's the indignation about Norm Cash's career season in which he admits to having cheated (cork). Don't tell me personality doesn't play a large part in who is held responsible and who we look the other way for.

One last thing, O.J. Simpson & a double murder is a wildly inappropriate analogy. Murder & spousal abuse...cheating at baseball...hmmmmm:noidea

25 steeroids a day will work wonders....he earned it!

Cav

[runningshoes]

No emotions now......hes a steeeeroid junkie!

I was thinking more along lones of sociopath.

not learning from experience
no sense of responsibility
inability to form meaningful relationships
inability to control impulses
lack of moral sense
chronically antisocial behavior
emotional immaturity
lack of guilt
self-centeredness

Sound like anyone you know? ;)

[west coast orange and black]

"a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing."

[runningshoes]

"a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing."

It can also be an enlightening thing.

I guess it all depends on how you look at it.

[west coast orange and black]

agreed.

i happen to think that to become more than just "enlightened", more than just a cursory amount of knowledge is needed. in the case of bonds and steroids, he has not admitted to using, he has not been named under oath by first-hand witnesses and he has not tested positive.

the strengths of the detailed report (the dark shadows book) are up-'til-now uncorroborated grand jury transcripts and unnamed sources. surely there can be a n appreciation for those, especially players, who either need more information to step from "bonds is innocent" or are sitting on the fence.

[runningshoes]

I agree in principle, but again, as was the whole argument months ago; it's like holding something in front of my face and trying to tell me it's not there.

I can't conceive of all this testimony being incorrect. I'm sure there are aspects of it that are erroneous and even wrong, but on the whole, I think it's correct.

I can't imagine SI going with this story without seeing first hand evidence.

Bonds is no slouch. I'm sure he can afford to sue the asses of the publishers if he could prove they are just going on a wing and a prayer.

[west coast orange and black]

I can't conceive of all this testimony being incorrect. I'm sure there are aspects of it that are erroneous and even wrong, but on the whole, I think it's correct.
agreed.

I can't imagine SI going with this story without seeing first hand evidence.
si reprinted excerpts.
then, over the weekend, the sf chronicle ran an adaption from the book. huh?

give us the story - the truth as best can be done - and let us decide.
it's just that, after years of work, very few key quotes from named sources. after years of work, very little new news.

[runningshoes]

But now they're saying they have the evidence to back the allegations up.

We'll just have to wait and see but I'm not expecting the evidence to be fabricated or unprovable.

Do you think the reporters are making this stuff up?

[west coast orange and black]

yes, the claim is indeed that they have the evidence to back their allegations.
it is just that the federal grand jury transcripts are sealed, so it is impossible to corroborate the text from the book.

also, much of the documents from the offices and homes of balco people can not be categorically identified absent unreasonable doubt.

do i think the reporters are making this stuff up? no.

but i do know that the entire story would be a much representation of the entire truth.

*excerpted* and *incomplete* transcripts. why?
*unnamed sources* of key passages. why?

the adaptation that appeared over the weekend, by the way, makes the reader believe that only one question was asked of bonds by the grand jury members themselves.
i know for a fact that that was not the case.

[runningshoes]

The only reason I can think of is because the sources don't want to be named..ala Deepthroat.

[runningshoes]

the adaptation that appeared over the weekend, by the way, makes the reader believe that only one question was asked of bonds by the grand jury members themselves.
i know for a fact that that was not the case.

No one ever accused editors of being smart. :D

[west coast orange and black]

^^ ^^ :clapping