Mike Epstein [Archive] - Baseball Fever

Ursa Major

09-27-2005, 11:31 PM

Wogdoggy said: ALL i can say is get your kid to learn the rotational method.Another great website to try is batspeed.com. spend the money on an instructional hitting video using rotational theories.

I'm starting to think that the rotational system would work well for my son. I went back and looked at a video of the best hit he had last year, and realized that by happenstance that's pretty much what he was doing. I've seen other, older kids doing it and didn't have a name for it but was amazed how much power the could generate with a short stroke.

I've looked at Epstein and Batspeed.com -- both look good, but Epstein seems a bit absolute, insisting that you have to select to go exclusively with one system or the other -- rotational or linear.

Someone who seems less doctrinaire/absolute about choosing between the two systems is Mike Schmidt, whose book seems to be pretty well praised. It can be found at:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0963460927/103-7169299-4326235?v=glance

Wogdoggy, you seem to talk a fair amount of sense on these boards. Any particular video you think would be worth the $20 or so it would cost?

wogdoggy

09-28-2005, 05:40 AM

I would start with batspeed.com video.the reason i like this one is its more intriguing for a kid from 9 to 14 then epstein's .batspeed.com has some easy drills the kids can work on by themselves.They also have a message board at the sight where the devoloper will answer questions that you have about the video etc.That is a nice add on too.For all the money you spend on this and that during a season,I guarantee you this will be the best money you spend. :waving

Ursa Major

10-04-2005, 03:07 AM

Wogdoggy said: I would start with batspeed.com video.the reason i like this one is its more intriguing for a kid from 9 to 14 then epstein's .batspeed.com has some easy drills the kids can work on by themselves.They also have a message board at the sight where the devoloper will answer questions that you have about the video etc.That is a nice add on too.For all the money you spend on this and that during a season,I guarantee you this will be the best money you spendWogdoggy, exactly what kind of experience did you have with this video? How old and how experienced was the kid you used it with? What kind of problems/deficiencies did he start with and how were they corrected? What kind of results did you get? I am tempted to get the video...

wogdoggy

10-04-2005, 05:43 AM

He had a slow swing and made half A$$ attempts at hitting the ball,This is a mechanics video ,it shows the difference between rotational style and linear style.It has two kids in it where they show drills with a heavy bag.The instructor shows different styles of rotation,he mimmicks Sosa,Bonds McGuire,Sheff,Etc Etc ans shows how no matter whta these guys do before the swing they all end up in the same spot.When my one boy was "keyed "in last year he would hit pull shot line drives to left field.This type of swing promotes line drive pull hitting like you see with bonds, big mac and more recently Abreu.Did you see how many HOME RUNS he PULLED at the derby this year? THATS the PERFECT rotational swing.Go to the website and scroll thru the different areas.:coffee by the way Both my kids improved dramatically ,11 yr old and 14 yr old.The 11 yr old at 65 lbs playing travel with more physically mature kids led his teams in batting for the 1st three quarters of the season and then he dropped off considerably when grandpa starting taking him golfing.1 month after the season his eyesight was corrected from a -2.50 to - 3.25.I dont know ???? But i think the golf swing made him stiifen and straighten his bottom hand on loading which cheated him from power,,I Know the eyesight did'nt help either.The 14 yr old has blasted balls over the fence this year and has hit some awesome balls.The KID,,,, He thinks he's Albert Pujols,I broke the news to him and told him he was too polish.lol.

Ursa Major

10-05-2005, 12:21 AM

Hey, you're a prince for getting back to me so soon on it. I think I'll go ahead and bite the bullet and spend the $39 for the DVD. Did you buy the swing analysis as well?

I'd never really paid much attention to Abreu, but looked around to see if I could get a good luck at his swing. I finally found an MLB clip of most of his 41 homers at the All-Star HR Derby, and I see what you mean about his rotational mechanics. They really are impressive. And, his swing is really consistent, time after time. You can view the streaming clip at:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/all_star/y2005/hr_derby.jsp

jacslee

11-09-2005, 08:44 PM

But does abrue swing like that in a game????????.........big difference when you are telling someone what to pitch you and how you swing, than when your facing Roger Clemens and he's pitching you what HE wants to pitch you....yes I will agree that the swing needs to remain the same....but to err is human, and as a human(and baseball player) you WILL adjust your swing at EVERY AT BAT..depending the on the pitches your seeing.....NO Swing IS perfect!!!!, but the 1500 players in baseball all have a perfect swing(and how many different styles do you see in those 1500)!!!!...(keep the the mechanics to the basics but DONT TEACH 1 STYLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)....If you disagree then please tell me when was the last time you were at bat in a major league game!!!!!!!!!!!(btw did you strike out or hit into a DP???)

Just remember NO quarterback was signed to a mutli-million dollar deal for completing 30% of his PASSES!!!!!!!!

wogdoggy

11-10-2005, 05:31 AM

you put the MOE in moron...IF you disagree when was the last time you even got the FRIES right.Wake up kid.:laugh

jbooth

11-10-2005, 08:40 AM

Hey, you're a prince for getting back to me so soon on it. I think I'll go ahead and bite the bullet and spend the $39 for the DVD. Did you buy the swing analysis as well?

Videos are good, but the fact is; you can't really learn just from a video. If you don't understand the underlying philosophy, or facts of what is being taught, you might not actually emulate what is being taught. You need an instructor to watch you and correct you as you learn.

Neuro scientists have learned that it takes 200-300 correct repitions to learn complex physical movements to the point that you just do them unconciously. And, that applies to learning from scratch. If you have already learned a movement like the swing, and then try to make changes; it takes 1,500 to 3,000 correct repititions to re-program the brain. If you don't have somebody watching you swing, and you do it wrong, you are just inserting a different incorrect program.

You need to video your son often, as you try to change and compare what he is doing, to what you see on the video. It also helps to know WHY you are supposed to do something, and what the pitfalls are if you do it differently.

wogdoggy

11-10-2005, 10:27 AM

jbooth

11-10-2005, 10:40 AM

Based upon your statements as to what you understood from reading Epstein's website, I can tell you that you don't understand what he is saying.

Tony Gwynn has no idea how a swing actually works either,

Anybody can own a training center,and believe me there are tons of people affiliated with training centers that dont know diddley either,,,but i always wonder about a guy that bad raps others,especially tried and true players like tony gwynn haveing NO IDEA at all...but yet of course you do.You know the best ,nyman mankin and epstein and the worst lau and hudgkins...apparently dave did it with smoke and mirrors for 10 yrs,,,I dont care for daves stuff either but he does have some great stuff too...there is no absolute.

wondering why you didnt stay with the epstein instruction for your clinic? did it have the name recognition you thought? not enuf referrals for the 5 grand? You owning a hitting clinic give you absolutely no instant credibilty anybody with a few thousand to invest can open one...get off the high horse and realize you put your pants on one leg at a time too.

You're entitled to your opinion. I gave mine. I clearly stated that I was giving my OPINION. Mine is based upon extensive, thorough, objective study of the beliefs of each of the people I mentioned. I also, stated that it was MY OPINION, not that I know it all. What is your position based upon? I also stated exactly why I'm not with Mike anymore.

I also, suggested that people study all of the people I named and make their OWN judgment. I just gave MY analysis to throw into their decision process. I didn't tell them mine was the end all, that's what Nyman thinks of himself, not me. You obviously can't comprehend what you read.

Are you a Gwynn fan? Is that the reason for the hostile response? Gwynn could DO IT, but it doesn't mean he can teach it. He actually believes that the body sequence of a swing is; hands, shoulders and hips. Exactly the opposite of what it really is and that can be proven, or you can just take Ted Williams' word over Gwynn's. Ted was much better than Gwynn.

Yeah, anybody can open a training center, but I happen to put a lot of work into learning what is best, and the best way to teach it, and my students are having a lot of success.

Ursa Major

11-10-2005, 12:44 PM

Boys, boys, boys! You're two of my favorite guys on this site, and I hate to see you go at it. Now, Wogdoggy, I don't think there's any call to jump on JB by saying, "Anyone can open a training site." Fact is, I'd rather listen to someone who's got a 'brick and mortar' business that relies on local word of mouth than a guy with an internet site and a video who relies on promotional gimmickry. So apologize and go back and play nice, and maybe we can talk about the merits of the various systems and web sites, which is what the original post was about, right?

Looking over all the opinions JB uttered in the last few posts, I can't really find much to disagree with about any of them, even where he accuses me of now knowing what I'm talking about. Back on September 21st, when I was talking about my first impressions of Epstein's site, I said, "As near as I can tell, the differences from more conventional hitting are that the hands start lower and closer to the body than usual, and the hitter lets his hips propel that hands forward and lead to a slight upswing and high finish to match the plane of the incoming ball." In hindsight, I realize that I did miss the main points of Epstein's system by a mile. See, that's when I asked you smart guys for advice, bought the batspeed.com video and love it (as does my son), and I'm almost a smart guy too.

I think a starting point for any comparison of the systems is assessing the target audience. On rotational hitting, I think Jack Mankin's BatSpeed.com is focused more on younger (8-12) kids, and it sorta tops out at the experienced kids. Epstein doesn't have nearly as much free info on his site or in his forums, so I can't be sure, but it sounds as though he gives a lot more detail that would be of assistance to the 14+ age bracket. BatSpeed, by contrast, seems to leave out a lot that you need to pick up elsewhere (usually on the site) -- e.g., the ideal grip and how to hit pitches in various locations.

This gets to your best point among many good ones JB, which is that videos can get you only so far. I view the Batspeed video and others that I've bought and books I've read as a starting point for my own observations and successful experience. I think what has drawn me to being a rotational adherent recently is not just that I'm picking and choosing arbitrarily from success stories, but that the system as taught by Mankin and, apparently, Epstein makes sense to me. Just like you may not know as much as your doctor, but if what he or she is telling you sounds like gobbledygook made up on the fly to try to convince you of their opinions, it's time to get a new doctor.

BTW, JB I went to the web site for your First Pick Training Club. I was amazed to see that we're almost neighbors! (I'm just across the Richmond Bridge in Berkeley, and I have a cousin who lives in Novato (but their family sport is tennis, not baseball.) I think the fact that you can in one session have a tubby, fiftyish woman reporter with a bad dye job hitting line drives in high heels ought to be the greatest testimony to your system! It was hard to tell much about the hitting due to the age range of the kids shown (and that kid in the "Club" video was dropping his hands before he launched :eek: ), but I really liked the pitching motion you had all the kids doing. (Although, what is a kid who looks like he's 8 doing pitching from the stretch; do any leagues in that age bracket allow leadoffs, or is that just a teaching technique to isolate the later part of the motion?) My son has a strong arm, but he tends to shorten up on his leg raise (or corkscrew the leg back towards second) and not get that nice reach back ('scapular loading', if you will) that your kids have, so a lot of his pitches tend to go low and outside to righties. He's got a semi-pro pitching coach to work with on that, cuz gawd knows he won't listen to me.

wogdoggy

11-10-2005, 01:27 PM

it seems to me he just came across as a know it all,gwynn dont know crap,this guy has a big ego this guy is linear this guy is that and i own this and i know that...thats all,,just a lil too much.to just dismiss hugkins is ridicoulous,,yeah he is somewhat linear but if you look at his stuff some of its good too..like the way he holds the bat.etc...so you can find some great stuff in everbodys stuff if you look hard enough,,,thats all.:confused:

west coast orange and black

11-11-2005, 06:13 PM

"did you strike out or hit into a DP?"

"you put the MOE in moron"

"Anybody can own a training center... there are tons of people affiliated with training centers that dont know diddley either"

are things cool here, now?

hit-it-hard

11-12-2005, 10:55 AM

Videos are good, but the fact is; you can't really learn just from a video. If you don't understand the underlying philosophy, or facts of what is being taught, you might not actually emulate what is being taught. You need an instructor to watch you and correct you as you learn.

Neuro scientists have learned that it takes 200-300 correct repitions to learn complex physical movements to the point that you just do them unconciously. And, that applies to learning from scratch. If you have already learned a movement like the swing, and then try to make changes; it takes 1,500 to 3,000 correct repititions to re-program the brain. If you don't have somebody watching you swing, and you do it wrong, you are just inserting a different incorrect program.

You need to video your son often, as you try to change and compare what he is doing, to what you see on the video. It also helps to know WHY you are supposed to do something, and what the pitfalls are if you do it differently.

Great post Jim.

hit-it-hard

ElCaminoSS

11-12-2005, 12:30 PM

you guys are hurting my brain with your long posts, me no think good:laugh

ElCaminoSS

11-12-2005, 12:33 PM

I not an expert by any means, but one thing I have really learned over the years is that what works best for me is for me to understand the details of elite hitting as well as possible. And then figure out how to teach them to each kid based on their age, learning ability, etc
No argument here

Ursa Major

11-12-2005, 07:09 PM

HIH said: He simply won't put up with the folks who state something as fact without evidence or with bad science behind their evidence - which is something very different than thinking he believes he knows exactly how the bat should be swung.Well, the problem with this attitude is that, while you may not be able to prove a theory without exhaustive research, you may be able to disprove an existing one with contrary, real-world experience. Yet, Nyman seems to disdainfully disagree with even the possibility that his conclusions could be overstated when someone does so.

A classic example is that recently JBooth built a cute little contraption to illustrate, not prove, that there may be some benefit to using the top hand to start the bathead moving, which is a real world issue for weak, scrawny kids. Nyman spent his post dismissing the simplicity of the contraption, without addressing the real world points the contraption demonstrated. When I followed up asking if, even though top hand movement might not do much to generate speed, was there anything wrong or risky about using it to start the swing, everyone went silent.

The big red flag for me with Nyman is that he does not know the limits of his expertise. Discerning folks like you and me can recognize that there is a lot of good that you can take out of the date he generates without necessarily buying into everything he concludes. I deal with and hire experts all the time and have to constantly make sure they are not offering opinions beyond their area of expertise, just as I have to make sure I advise people for whom I work what the limits of my specialized skills are and when they (or I) have to hire an expert to help when the problems extend beyond what I can do. While I haven't seen Paul's CD, he doesn't seem to pay much attention to the fact that kids' shoulders and hands aren't pins around which rectangles perfectly spin, and they go into instruction with a host of pre-prgrammed physical impulses based on bad baseball coaching, or soccer instincts, or dancing, or any number of prior physical acts.

One of the things that is wonderful about the site is the swing review thread. What a wonderfully helpful notion, and the participating coaches are so giving of their time. I think it's valid because most of the advice is consistent with each other, and the coaches seem to work to reconcile their perceptions and will alter them when "errors" are spotted. Then again, it may be they've all bought into the same malarkey. Still, the ratio of good advice to crapola is far higher than on any site I've ever seen, this one included. Paul's interventions are limited and he introduces just so much of the physical theory that seems to apply to a particular point at issue in a thread.

I can't say I understand (or fully agree with) everything on the posts but, after thinking about it, have come to agree with your point that it is better to learn the elite wisdom and scale it back to the level appropriate to the hitters you're working with. (As contrasted with learning just enough to get by coaching, without understanding why you're giving a particular piece of advice.) Thanks for making the point so well -- the best learned lessons are often, like that one, points that are so valid that you wonder why you weren't able to put them together in your head yourself.

I agree with Jim's point on repetitions -- the old "muscle memory" issue. My son has had coaches who talk about muscle memory and overcoming old habits, and then they never run drills (or instruct kids to do drills at home) to develop the right muscle memory. They just yell once at practice "Step to the pitcher" or "Don't drop your hands" and think they've done their jobs. I'll be sure to quote it to the kids -- "One of the most esteemed coaches in the San Francisco Area says that all you kids who've been swinging wrong -- and that's all of you -- have to go home and do these "maintain the box" drills 3,000 times in front of a mirror to stop you're flailing. And do your homework too." :crazy

You raise a good point

hit-it-hard

11-12-2005, 07:44 PM

The primary reason for my posts were from a lessons learned point-of-view:

Originally while I learned everything I could from multiple folks, I somewhat boycotted Nyman because of his obnoxiousness. And looking back, all it did was set my learning and my kid's hitting back - and maybe save me getting my ego bruised a few times. And I see this same thing happen regularly with others who just don't want to put up with his personality. I really don't blame folks for not wanting to deal with him - I'm just trying to get them to think a little about who they're really hurting by not listening to him.

As for the THT post from Jim and your followup post, this is really a prototypical Nyman example. He is convinced his simulations clearly explain that THT is a) unnecesary and b) likely to be harmful. And he has done his homework on this subject - he spent an incredible amount of time looking into it as Jack would never back off of THT - so I tend to believe he is correct. (That and the fact that when I tried to add THT to my kid's swing, the result was a huge increase in disconnection.) Once he has truly convinced himself - which takes significant due diligence - it generally takes someone making an incredibly strong case for him to become interested in it again. (Again, not saying his handling is correct...)

hit-it-hard

Ursa Major

11-13-2005, 02:08 AM

I'm not worried about my ego being bruised, and if I was worried about dealing with obnoxious people, I wouldn't live where I do (Berkeley, CA!). I expressly go into my discussions there by saying, "I'm sorta new to this high end stuff and here is my perception, so what am I missing?" I think people generally, and Nyman's acolytes particularly, are happy to spread the word to an informed newbie, as long as the newbie isn't trying to either throw out terms he obviously doesn't understand or is trying to make arguments that defy experience or data. I think folks will forgive you saying, "Well, the data says that but I have trouble teaching that to kids in the real world," but won't forgive saying without substantiation that some technique makes more sense from a physics-model point of view.
As for the THT post from Jim and your followup post, this is really a prototypical Nyman example. He is convinced his simulations clearly explain that THT is a) unnecesary and b) likely to be harmful. And he has done his homework on this subject - he spent an incredible amount of time looking into it as Jack would never back off of THT - so I tend to believe he is correct.Actually, I think Jack has backed of THT now, but the Nyman crowd still insists on fighting the battle as the "THT" term was used some time ago.

I went back to Batspeed.com and researched "THT" and found a Mankin post with a clip from one of his videos, in which he says about THT: "... just help that bat along... add torque at initiation to complement what the bat wants to do.... add a little force in that same direction to kinda help it along." This obviously refers only to hand action at the very initiation of the swing and not to some later point, and doesn't call for anything close to the violence of the "fishhook" or "bottom hand torque" hand action near the contact point.
The post is at: http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/23938.html, and you can download the video clip from that post. Yet, some Nymoids are still arguing that Mankin is calling for THT just before contact.

I can see how a conscious, vigorous top hand move can throw off an effort to stay "in plane" with the swing. But the problem is that, as you say, they don't want to re-visit it even to see if there might be some small morsel of helpful information from the original concept. Dismissing "THT" doesn't get back to what I view to be the essential question: do you help kids with certain age/skill/strength characteristics get the bat moving and into an acceptable swing plane by doing something consciously with the top hand? If so, what kinds of kids? How should you teach it? As I mentioned, I've had no response to my much more limited inquiry.

jbooth

11-13-2005, 08:02 AM

Dismissing "THT" doesn't get back to what I view to be the essential question: do you help kids with certain age/skill/strength characteristics get the bat moving and into an acceptable swing plane by doing something consciously with the top hand?

IMO, NO, absolutely not! Teach them the best/correct way to do it, don't put band-aids on a problem. Cure it.

Yes, they are weak in the arms and the core, but they need to learn early that the body swings the bat, NOT the arms and hands.

You need to teach them the principles of leverage and use of force. The bat weighs less than 2 pounds, the muscles in your legs, torso and shoulders are designed to move body parts that are MUCH heavier than 2 pounds. Your wrists and forearms aren't designed to move as much weight. Therefore, learn to connect the bat to your body (make it part of the body that the big muscles move) and use the big muscles to rotate the whole unit (body with bat attached.)

They absolutely MUST learn to rotate the body and to start the rotation with the lower body. After I explain the details, I just tell them to turn their feet/hips and then the front shoulder and PULL the bat with the front arm.

If you emphasize that the whole front side from the ground up, is pulling the bat around, they begin to stop pushing the bat at the ball and get more batspeed. It's like playing a game of tug-o-war with the bat being the rope, and you are trying to pull the catcher to the pitcher. You have to use your whole body and shift all the weight around the front foot.

The fence drill helps them learn to rotate and pull, versus throw the head and push the handle.

hit-it-hard

11-13-2005, 01:05 PM

I can see how a conscious, vigorous top hand move can throw off an effort to stay "in plane" with the swing. But the problem is that, as you say, they don't want to re-visit it even to see if there might be some small morsel of helpful information from the original concept. Dismissing "THT" doesn't get back to what I view to be the essential question: do you help kids with certain age/skill/strength characteristics get the bat moving and into an acceptable swing plane by doing something consciously with the top hand? If so, what kinds of kids? How should you teach it? As I mentioned, I've had no response to my much more limited inquiry.

I can't speak for them, however, I believe the concern is not a swing plane issue. It is a disconnection issue. It is difficult to stop kids from using their arms. Applying any pressure on the bat to get it started via the arms is going to cause the bat and the arms to move at faster rate than the body - which is by definition disconnection.

hit-it-hard

hit-it-hard

11-13-2005, 01:08 PM

Btw, one other person who is not mentioned enough in these conversations is Jim Dixon. If you can find a copy of his out of print book "The Exceptional Athlete" (1990), grab it and consume the contents. It has some problems in different areas, but his basic description of how to use the center to swing/throw filled in a lot of gaps of my knowledge.

hit-it-hard

Ursa Major

11-14-2005, 01:01 AM

IMO, NO, absolutely not! Teach them the best/correct way to do it, don't put band-aids on a problem. Cure it.Uh, but, then why even investigate the possibility of top hand benefits with your experimental contraption?

HitNHard seems to address the possible risks when he states:

I can't speak for them, however, I believe the concern is not a swing plane issue. It is a disconnection issue. It is difficult to stop kids from using their arms. Applying any pressure on the bat to get it started via the arms is going to cause the bat and the arms to move at faster rate than the body - which is by definition disconnection.

Funny, it's the swing plane issue that is giving me second thoughts about trying even minimal top hand pressure. Now, as to the "applying pressure" will lead to what "is by definition disconnection." I'm not talking about pressing the hands forward, but flicking the hands backward; don't think they're then moving at a faster rate than the body.

hit-it-hard

11-14-2005, 07:15 AM

The body natually does things with the hands. That's why it's such a struggle to get kids to use the body rather than the arms. In my experience, any suggestion to use the arms leads to bad things. There's so much work to do to get the kid rotating well and connected, leave the other stuff alone, IMO.

And remember that the only thing rear arm can do to a swing is screw it up (stolen from Steve E. on h-m.org).

hit-it-hard

jbooth

11-14-2005, 01:11 PM

Uh, but, then why even investigate the possibility of top hand benefits with your experimental contraption?

The purpose of the contraption was to show kids;

1. That the front shoulder, front elbow, hands, and back shoulder form a box similar to the contraption.
2. The box can move the bat all by itself, therefore, you don't need to do anything with the hands and/or arms to make the bat move.

However, video analysis of the contraption in use, made evident the fact that, although the box CAN move the bat all by itself, the bathead won't get to the proper contact point without some hand/arm action, or SOMETHING being added to the movement.

I don't believe that you need an early hand action to get the bat to proper contact, I think it is a natural "squeezing" (for lack of a better word) as the bathead approaches contact that gets the bathead through in time. IMO, it is simply a natural action that happens as the forces from the bat start to uncock the wrists. To tell you the truth, I'm still trying to find out what the hands do, but I think it is a non-teach. The hands will do what they need to, IF, everything else is correct.

Ursa Major

11-14-2005, 04:32 PM

JBooth said: The purpose of the contraption was to show kids;
1. That the front shoulder, front elbow, hands, and back shoulder form a box similar to the contraption.
2. The box can move the bat all by itself, therefore, you don't need to do anything with the hands and/or arms to make the bat move.
Need input on an experiment for top-hand-torqueAh, well, then you fooled me and, perhaps, a few other folks, both by titling that thread "Need input on an experiment for top-hand-torque" and stating early on in the first post, "My conclusion is this; a small amount of force must be applied early in order to help the head move toward the ground...."

That's why I thought you were assessing early top hand torque.

HitnHard said: The body natually does things with the hands. That's why it's such a struggle to get kids to use the body rather than the arms. In my experience, any suggestion to use the arms leads to bad things. There's so much work to do to get the kid rotating well and connected, leave the other stuff alone, IMO.
And remember that the only thing rear arm can do to a swing is screw it up (stolen from Steve E. on h-m.org).Wow, that's the clearest explanation of ever heard about just about anything relating to teaching swing mechanics to kids. By contrast, I'm involved in a new tussle with the power posters on Nyman about the advantages of the fence drill as demonstrated by Jim. Everyone is down on it because it ultimately will prevent kids from having a perfect, elite swing. I can't get 'em to focus on kids who don't practice much and have to unlearn their old linear flails. They just can't get past their models of the perfect swing to understand that teaching sometimes occurs in small steps to get the kids to the next level, and you might have to introduce intermediate compromise techniques to wipe the old techniques out of their muscle memory before they can move on.

jbooth

11-14-2005, 08:35 PM

Ah, well, then you fooled me and, perhaps, a few other folks, both by titling that thread "Need input on an experiment for top-hand-torque" and stating early on in the first post, "My conclusion is this; a small amount of force must be applied early in order to help the head move toward the ground...."

That's why I thought you were assessing early top hand torque.

Yes, I did say that, and that's what I concluded, but I realize that was wrong. In the clip of my swing you see that I was doing that and it isn't what the pros do and it isn't necessary. I stopped doing it and the swing still works. I honestly don't know, and I don't think anybody does (including Nyman and Adair and Mankin) how to tell someone what to do with the hands. As the other poster stated, just don't think about them unless you are actually using them, then think about NOT.

Ursa Major

11-14-2005, 09:01 PM

Yes, I did say that, and that's what I concluded, but I realize that was wrong. In the clip of my swing you see that I was doing that and it isn't what the pros do and it isn't necessary. I stopped doing it and the swing still works. I honestly don't know, and I don't think anybody does (including Nyman and Adair and Mankin) how to tell someone what to do with the hands. As the other poster stated, just don't think about them unless you are actually using them, then think about NOT.Well, we know that stud hitters like you don't need the help moving the bathead. The question on my mind is whether it might help kids who need a boost getting the bathead moving. What is your experience in teaching kids in your little Marin County All-Stars factory?

Yankeesfan1234

11-14-2005, 10:22 PM

well............

jbooth

11-14-2005, 11:02 PM

Well, we know that stud hitters like you don't need the help moving the bathead. The question on my mind is whether it might help kids who need a boost getting the bathead moving. What is your experience in teaching kids in your little Marin County All-Stars factory?

If they use their hands to start the bathead, I stick their hands in scalding hot water. Just kidding!:)

Seriously, I just force them to do whatever drill I can think of, switch around between tee, fence, and machine. I strap the bat to their shoulder, and make them practice just turning their shoulders.

I emphasize turning the hips and we work on drills that isolate just that movement. Epstein's 1-2-3drill or also called "numbers" drill. I then just tell them to concentrate very hard on turning the hips and front shoulder. PULL THE BAT, don't push it.

I also, state to them about 85,000 times per lesson, "forget that the bat has a fat head, move the KNOB, pull on the knob, pull the knob using your shoulders. PULL THE KNOB!!, PULL THE KNOB. Pretend you don't have a right arm. PULL THE KNOB."

It takes strength to try and move the bathead from a leverage point at the handle. NOBODY is that strong. Move/manipulate the handle.

Lee Trevino used to teach golfers the same thing. He said, "Swing the handle, not the clubhead." It is even more important to do that with a bat, because it is MUCH heavier than a golf club, especially at the head.

Ursa Major

11-15-2005, 10:45 AM

"Need input on an experiment for top-hand-torque" and stating early on in the first post, "My conclusion is this; a small amount of force must be applied early in order to help the head move toward the ground...."
That's why I thought you were assessing early top hand torque.
JB replied: Yes, I did say that, and that's what I concluded, but I realize that was wrong.You've been teaching kids baseball for twenty years, and in the past three days you've changed your mind about use of the top hand? :) How can I be one of your disciples -- part of Booth's Brigade -- if I can't keep up with your teaching? Maybe I'd better go back to Hudgens, eh? Why does everything I post end with a question mark?
Seriously, I just force them to do whatever drill I can think of, switch around between tee, fence, and machine. I strap the bat to their shoulder, and make them practice just turning their shoulders.I like your thinking. I think part of my dispute with the Nymanoids over the fence drill -- trying to finish the fight that you started, thank you very much -- is that they seem to have very little sense of pedogological devices. Switching among drills to avoid boredom, trying different drills or explanations until you stumble across something that clicks with a particular kid, using a temporary drill to kill a bad habit and jettisoning the new drill before it creates a new bad habit.

I like your thinking. I may bite the bullet and drag Aaron over there for paid lessons even if it is a serious shlep. Especially since your example of posting your swing inspired me to try to record mine.... Eeeeeeewwwww! It's ugly. Certainly not fit to be an example for anyone over the age of 8.

And thanks for the Trevino quote -- possibly the first thing I've heard from him that's more useful than amusing. I'm stealing it along with the rest of your post for use in my coaching.

I strap the bat to their shoulder, and make them practice just turning their shoulders.It's funny, I was reaching into the shelf in my closet yesterday and saw the sling I'd been given when I separated my shoulder skiing five years ago, and I wondered, would this make a good teaching device? Then, for the heck of it, I googled "arm sling" and discovered not only can we get slings for about $10 each at wholesale, but the have slings/immobilizers that in essence is a little bib combined with a wrist/forearm strap, both with velcro all over them to keep the wrist connected to the waist to immobilize the shoulder.

Then, lightning struck! What if you have a similar device, but have the "body" part of the device not so much a bib but a shoulder piece -- sort of half a shoulder pad without the pad. Put velcro there and on the wrist piece, which goes on the bottom hand. Batter in practice grabs bat and goes back to launch position, affixing wrist piece to shoulder piece. He launches his or her swing. Wait for it now ..... ! Only if the shoulder turn generates enough force will the wrist piece come free of the shoulder piece for the batter to complete the swing. Even if the batter has the strength to pull the pieces apart anyway, it will serve as a "reminder" to wait as long as possible before flailing the hands. Here's what I have in mind:

http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/DisconnectionDestroyer.JPG

We'll call it the Disconnection Destroyer and market it for $59.99, plus $8.95 for shipping and handling (making another $5 on that). We'll make millions, Jimmy-boy, millions!

Whew.... okay .... sorry about that. Too much Peet's. :coffee Anyway, I thought you might find the concept an amusing addition to your day. You're welcome.

U "TMTOHFH"* M

(*=Too Much Time on His F%&#@ Hands)

jbooth

11-15-2005, 11:10 AM

You've been teaching kids baseball for twenty years, and in the past three days you've changed your mind about use of the top hand? :) How can I be one of your disciples -- part of Booth's Brigade -- if I can't keep up with your teaching? Maybe I'd better go back to Hudgens, eh? Why does everything I post end with a question mark?

If you only knew how much I hate being proven wrong, that wouldn't be funny. However, I am not one of those people who won't admit to being wrong once the facts are obvious. I learn from the mistake and try to never be wrong again. I MUST attain perfection! :)

I like your thinking. I think part of my dispute with the Nymanoids over the fence drill -- trying to finish the fight that you started, thank you very much -- is that they seem to have very little sense of pedogological devices. Switching among drills to avoid boredom, trying different drills or explanations until you stumble across something that clicks with a particular kid, using a temporary drill to kill a bad habit and jettisoning the new drill before it creates a new bad habit.

I agree. I have about 100 different words, phrases, motions that I use on each student. I keep rattling them off until one makes the light bulb go off in the students head. Human communication is something I find facinating. How one word can me different things to different people. You have to communicate, which is something Nyman and most of his buddies can't do. They can't see the forest for the trees.

I really would like you to come over and see my place. I have some gadgets you might find interesting, and I am definitely interested in your Disconnection Destroyer.
[/QUOTE]

hit-it-hard

11-15-2005, 11:44 AM

Wow, that's the clearest explanation of ever heard about just about anything relating to teaching swing mechanics to kids. By contrast, I'm involved in a new tussle with the power posters on Nyman about the advantages of the fence drill as demonstrated by Jim. Everyone is down on it because it ultimately will prevent kids from having a perfect, elite swing. I can't get 'em to focus on kids who don't practice much and have to unlearn their old linear flails. They just can't get past their models of the perfect swing to understand that teaching sometimes occurs in small steps to get the kids to the next level, and you might have to introduce intermediate compromise techniques to wipe the old techniques out of their muscle memory before they can move on.

To give credit where it's due, I pretty much got this directly from the h-m.org forums. That and Steve E (who posts there as setpro24).

hit-it-hard

hit-it-hard

11-15-2005, 11:50 AM

Yes, I did say that, and that's what I concluded, but I realize that was wrong.

The sign of an excellent coach... ability to admit a mistake and grow.

Ursa Major

11-15-2005, 01:01 PM

But, Jim, look at these five frames of your demo swing posted on the other forums (in low resolution so you don't have to worry about being recognized on the street). Look at the beginning of the swing. You are the poster child for top hand torque!
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/jimnov1305.gif
The sign of an excellent coach... ability to admit a mistake and grow.Hey, I'm cringing myself at advice I posted five days ago. I know I'm still learning. At least is important is realizing, as Jim does, that you need to be flexible with each kid to see what works. Maybe something you saw awhile back and disgarded may help with a kid.

Of lesser importance is the ability to take a bit of teasing. I've been going non-stop after Jim for a couple of days. At least I'm nicer than Teacherman, Dave S, and the like on Nyman's forums.

Another issue is what I call triage -- recognizing that with a lot of kids, the extent of their flaws and lack of commitment will limit you to correcting only one or two defects. Back in Spring 2004, I videotaped batting practice for my son's (9-10 year old) team and gave the coach a disk with each kids most representative ten or fifteen swings compressed. Then, I created a form for "grading" each kid's grip, stance, launch, etc. and added suggestions. He looked through them all and laughed and said, "This is great for older kids, but I can't fix all these things for all these kids. I'm just trying to keep 'em from backing out of the box!" An important lesson to be learned. Of course, most kids that year learned absolutely nothing about hitting.

Jim, I got your private message and will respond there. Thanks.

jbooth

11-15-2005, 02:18 PM

But, Jim, look at these five frames of your demo swing posted on the other forums (in low resolution so you don't have to worry about being recognized on the street). Look at the beginning of the swing. You are the poster child for top hand torque!

Now you're playing dirty like a lawyer. You left out the fact that in my own posting analyzing my swing, I stated that one GLARING error that I needed to fix was that early bathead movement. If any use of the hands does occur to help the bat move, it shouldn't happen THAT early. It's moving before my shoulders move. Even when I suggested that maybe some force needed to be applied I didn't mean like THAT.

Hey, I thought you were in my corner? Now, you're trying to make me look bad. :)

Ursa Major

11-15-2005, 04:16 PM

Now you're playing dirty like a lawyer.Hey, I may be rude and insulting, but now you're really getting nasty. You can expect the process servers outside your door by mid-day tomorrow.
Hey, I thought you were in my corner? Now, you're trying to make me look bad. If I'd wanted to make you look bad, I would have posted it on hitting-mechanics.org. As it is, I'm sure it's only the three of us who are watching this thread any more.

pgibbons

11-15-2005, 04:29 PM

I would recommed using an open mind and study Epstein, Nyman, and Mankin's stuff, then watch slow motion videos of MLB hitters and see if you see what these people see.

Question to anyone - of the guys mentioned above, if you only had $50 to spend, who/what video would you spend it on?

Yankeesfan1234

11-15-2005, 04:54 PM

If they use their hands to start the bathead, I stick their hands in scalding hot water. Just kidding!:)

Seriously, I just force them to do whatever drill I can think of, switch around between tee, fence, and machine. I strap the bat to their shoulder, and make them practice just turning their shoulders.

I emphasize turning the hips and we work on drills that isolate just that movement. Epstein's 1-2-3drill or also called "numbers" drill. I then just tell them to concentrate very hard on turning the hips and front shoulder. PULL THE BAT, don't push it.

I also, state to them about 85,000 times per lesson, "forget that the bat has a fat head, move the KNOB, pull on the knob, pull the knob using your shoulders. PULL THE KNOB!!, PULL THE KNOB. Pretend you don't have a right arm. PULL THE KNOB."

It takes strength to try and move the bathead from a leverage point at the handle. NOBODY is that strong. Move/manipulate the handle.

Lee Trevino used to teach golfers the same thing. He said, "Swing the handle, not the clubhead." It is even more important to do that with a bat, because it is MUCH heavier than a golf club, especially at the head.

my hitting coach had me do that drill but it was called a-b-c drill

hit-it-hard

11-15-2005, 07:04 PM

I think part of my dispute with the Nymanoids over the fence drill -- trying to finish the fight that you started, thank you very much -- is that they seem to have very little sense of pedogological devices. Switching among drills to avoid boredom, trying different drills or explanations until you stumble across something that clicks with a particular kid, using a temporary drill to kill a bad habit and jettisoning the new drill before it creates a new bad habit.

First, I don't think you're giving the "Nymanoids" enough credit. There are a number of different drills available - but not freely available. Some are discussed on the Setpro pay-for-view forums and Steve E. (setpro24) has an incredible number of them. These are proprietary drills from each and folks are asked not to reveal for free. (Understandably to me as it's how both Nyman and Steve make a living.) So the h-m.org group spends a lot of time giving "hints" about what to do, etc. without telling you a specific drill though.

If you want the shortcut to instructing this stuff, call Steve E and bring him to your house. IMO, it'll be the best money you ever spent on learning about hitting. I have no relationship with him other than the fact I brought him up to work with a group and had incredible results.

I agree. I have about 100 different words, phrases, motions that I use on each student. I keep rattling them off until one makes the light bulb go off in the students head. Human communication is something I find facinating. How one word can me different things to different people.

Two parts to teaching a skill. One is to understand the skill well enough that you can really teach it. Know what is really happening. Be able to recognize problems. The other is to be able to teach it. Having a toolkit to use to fix problems, etc.

I don't the Nyman group's goal is really to teach a student with the info h-m.org. I think they are trying to help the adult/parent/coach who is then going to try to teach a student. So they are primarily interested in part 1 (understanding the swing) rather than part 2 (instruction).

hit-it-hard

11-15-2005, 07:25 PM

Question to anyone - of the guys mentioned above, if you only had $50 to spend, who/what video would you spend it on?

Well Nyman is let out by the $50 limit. His CD is $250 - if he's even still offering it. (I've not figured out his business model yet... he is very difficult to purchase things from.) But the info in it is not even approached by the others. Is it worth 5 or 10X the cost? IMO, yes.

Another alternative is to bring Steve E to you. Steve knows Setpro concepts better than anyone except Nyman and has an incredible ability to teach/communicate. If you have a team or group, the price will be quite reasonable... though more than $50. Your price per hour will be a better deal than any local instructor you could find though as he will simply teach until everyone else drops. If you're asking for the best info and best value for your money this is it.

You could do worse than getting an Epstein or Mankin DVD/tape. But personally I'd save my money and get the correct info. Saves you money in the long run as your search $$$ is no longer needed.

jbooth

11-15-2005, 07:33 PM

my hitting coach had me do that drill but it was called a-b-c drill

A trend I've noticed nowadays, is this;

With all the high-technology that allows accurate study of athletic movements, many more people are studying and developing training methods. That is a GOOD thing. The BAD thing is; everybody seems to have the need to give their own name to the exact same drill that 10 other guys are doing. And, their own names for parts of the swing, or cues to use.

We now have 10 names for ONE drill. 10 names for each fundamental movement in the swing. And so on. It's just confusing everybody.

Then whats REALLY BAD is when the same name is used for two DIFFERENT movements. Such as "bat lag", it represents two completely different things depending on whether you are talking to Mike Epstein or Paul Nyman.

And finally, a statement used by many people, but understood or perceived differently. Such as "keep your hands back." No wonder chaos abounds.

pgibbons

11-15-2005, 08:39 PM

Thank you for the info.

Well Nyman is let out by the $50 limit. His CD is $250 - if he's even still offering it. (I've not figured out his business model yet... he is very difficult to purchase things from.)

I also heard from some others that the Nyman CD is excellent. I tried contacting Nyman multiple times to get it, but never received a response. I've tried to find it on eBay as well, but it looks like I'm outta luck with that CD.

Another alternative is to bring Steve E to you.

I don't know who Steve E is. Does he work for Nyman at his training center in CT? If so, I'm not that far away and would be willing to go there for a one-on-one session with him. Any idea how much that would cost?

jbooth

11-15-2005, 09:20 PM

Thank you for the info.

I also heard from some others that the Nyman CD is excellent. I tried contacting Nyman multiple times to get it, but never received a response. I've tried to find it on eBay as well, but it looks like I'm outta luck with that CD.

I don't know who Steve E is. Does he work for Nyman at his training center in CT? If so, I'm not that far away and would be willing to go there for a one-on-one session with him. Any idea how much that would cost?

I don't think Nyman has a business. He's a total geek who probably lives in a shack somewhere surrounded by pizza boxes. He just kicked me off his site again, just because I asked a question he didn't like.

hit-it-hard

11-15-2005, 09:23 PM

I don't know who Steve E is. Does he work for Nyman at his training center in CT? If so, I'm not that far away and would be willing to go there for a one-on-one session with him. Any idea how much that would cost?

Well I talked about him like he was well known, didn't I? :noidea

Steve Englishbey - he goes by the name of setpro24 on hitting-mechanics.org. Email at setpro25@yahoo.com. Give him a little time to respond as he's in demand and frequently traveling.

He is based in Houston but travels all over the country teaching hitting. He's the operational side of Nyman's stuff if you will (though they're not actually in biz together). Has incredible teaching methods and has come up with dozens of unique drills to teach Setpro/Nyman concepts. He was a 1st-round draft pick of the Astros in early 70's, gave it all up after never getting past AAA, and then got back into it when his son wanted to play.

I don't want to gush but there is no one I could give a higher recommendation to. But don't go by me - search h-m.org and eteamz baseball/fastpitch forums for his name and you'll find a number of folks who have brought him in and their experience.

Talk to him about his fees. If you can get a group to bring him in, it will be reasonably priced per person. And it's fairly easy to get a group to help you out if needed by posting on one of the above sites. He'll let you video tape sessions, so you'll have something to use as a guide from there out.

hit-it-hard

11-15-2005, 09:32 PM

He just kicked me off his site again, just because I asked a question he didn't like.

Too bad, looked like there's some very good info exchanged in your threads.

Ursa Major

11-16-2005, 01:55 AM

Question to anyone - of the guys mentioned above, if you only had $50 to spend, who/what video would you spend it on?I've only seen the Mankin DVD; I was willing to go $40 for that, rather than $169 for the Epstein system, based on recommendations I'd received. It's pretty basic and leaves a lot of gaps (like the grip), but it's a pretty good entre into rotational hitting for young hitters. If you zealously follow up the info available from Mankin's site (batspeed.com) and its forums and look at Nyman's, you'll have a pretty good idea of what to fill in and what ideas of Mankin you might want to think twice about.

The major determining issues are (1) the age and skill level of the player, and (2) how much money and effort you want to put into improving you or the kid you're guiding, as the case may be. For most youngsters, just getting down what Mankin tells you will make a huge difference, but he's not going to get your kid a Division 1 scholarship. For that you'll need real coaching.

I've seen a lot of Englishbey's posts and I'm not as impressed with him as I am some of the others. Also seems to be of the "you'd better be a serious hitter willing to fine-tune your swing down to the minutest detail, or you're doomed to damnation and a job as a greeter at Wal-Mart."
I don't think Nyman has a business. He's a total geek who probably lives in a shack somewhere surrounded by pizza boxes. He just kicked me off his site again, just because I asked a question he didn't like.That's not going to get you invited back on. And it wasn't that he didn't like your question; he didn't like the fact that you kept insisting that he answer it with words rather than posting video clips and saying "see, this is what slotting isn't" without explaining himself. And your rationale for pestering him was that you were trying to honor his request to help him be more articulate in his posts. You really thought he wanted that kind of assistance, Jim? You must be the sort of fellow who, when his wife says, "Do these pants make me look fat?", actually tries to answer the question.

hit-it-hard

11-16-2005, 07:47 AM

I've seen a lot of Englishbey's posts and I'm not as impressed with him as I am some of the others. Also seems to be of the "you'd better be a serious hitter willing to fine-tune your swing down to the minutest detail, or you're doomed to damnation and a job as a greeter at Wal-Mart."

I wouldn't base bringing Steve in on his posts. Check out eteamz & h-m.org reviews of his effectiveness when he works directly with players. Send an email to someone who brought him in and ask what they thought. I didn't get what he was saying in his posts (or even on the phone) before I worked with him either. He really does not think he can teach his "stuff" over the Intenet (and after seeing it I agree), so he does not spend nearly as much time as others trying to teach through the forum. Also, his posts have a lot more meaning to me now that I have an understanding of where he and Paul are coming from.

Your second statement is interesting. Although he spends a lot of time with serious players, I don't get that sense from his posts at all. I do think that he believes and ofter restates there are a few key things that if done wrong will cause problems later down the line and that those down the line problems simply cannot be fixed until the earlier item is fixed (both later in that particular swing and later as you face better pitching). So when people get off on "yeah but what if I try such and such...", he often responds that until you fix some basic things (your load or your mechanism to adjust posture, etc.) everything else is just a band-aid which may or may not improve things. Maybe that's what you're talking about?

We had kids from age 8 to 16 with him. Interest levels varied. Understanding of mechanics varied drastically. He adjusted his teaching so that every single kid came away with a better hitter and had a clear understanding of what to work on after the weekend.

Ursa Major

11-16-2005, 10:35 PM

HIH, you've certainly had more experience than I with Steve. I've gone back to look through some of his posts at h-m-org and, to be honest, didn't see the characteristics I attributed to him. He responded to one of my criticisms about the way people were attacking Mankin by blaming it on flames of Nyman originally posted on batspeed.com, which I thought to be a silly reason to disparage Mankin. But, as to his actual posts, he was a bit arcane and not particularly smooth, but he was not snooty in the few posts I found. So, I withdraw my comments about him; I was tired and careless and too caught up in my own prose. Especially given the assaults on Jim in those forums, I don't want to be guilty of in personam attacks here.

I'll keep a closer eye out for his posts and take away from them what learning I can. Thanks for cluing me in to his values.

hit-it-hard

11-16-2005, 11:39 PM

But, as to his actual posts, he was a bit arcane and not particularly smooth, but he was not snooty in the few posts I found.

I think arcane is a good choice of words. And intentional on his part - he makes his living instructing this stuff and he truly believes he needs to do it one-on-one (vs. selling it on the Internet) to be effective. Once you've seen his stuff, his posts reinforce a lot of concepts, but you won't "get it" from a Steve E post.

On the other hand, you almost certainly will "get it" if you can work with him in person - and you will get it quicker than with any other person/system from my experience.

Especially given the assaults on Jim in those forums, I don't want to be guilty of in personam attacks here.

The thing to remember is h-m.org is not your typical forum. Rather than a democracy or anarchy rule, h-m is an autocracy pure and simple.

Questions and requests for improvements are usually responded to fairly well.

Questioning the knowledge being espoused, inability to see/accept the knowledge, demanding/expecting further or better explanations, etc. are not.

A lot of folks assume/want it to be a place where everyone can give an opinion and shoot the breeze about their theories. But that's just not what it is. (IMO, there are plenty of those... no need for another anyways.)

And while there are definite & obvious drawbacks to restricting open discussions, I think it's also the reason why it's the place with the best info available on hitting. Paul doesn't allow the endless discussions of "yeah I know someone said X didn't work, but I was thinking the other day that maybe it did" go on that take place on the other sites. He digs into an area, uses the members feedback/questions to make himself look at it thoroughly, and then moves on to the next question to be answered.

Which takes me back to my original point way back in one of my first posts in this thread - the forum has issues, but I'm willing to put up with it to do the best thing for my kid.

jbooth

11-17-2005, 09:45 AM

He digs into an area, uses the members feedback/questions to make himself look at it thoroughly, and then moves on to the next question to be answered.

Yeah, and then he makes his pronouncement that HE has figured out what is right, and now the rest of you better not debate it with me, or I'll lock you out.

Which takes me back to my original point way back in one of my first posts in this thread - the forum has issues, but I'm willing to put up with it to do the best thing for my kid.

You're assuming he is the best. He doesn't have all the answers and he doesn't understand what Epstein means.

I don't have all the answers either, but I'm the type of person who strives to understand what one person is espousing, then double check it with some analysis of my own, then compare it to what I have understood from some others who have researched it, and make my own conclusions.

The most prominent objective researchers are Mankin, Epstein and Nyman. In doing my own research, combined with striving to understand what each of them has concluded, I have concluded that each of them has some flaws in their conclusions, and each of them has the same conclusions on most of the parts of the swing, although it may not appear to be so, at first glance.

I don't know exactly how the perfect swing is produced, but I do have a gift for understanding other peoples analysis and then taking what I think are the important parts and TEACHING it to someone.

You're right that Nyman's forum is unlike any other. It's a place for him to maintain his ego by having only "yes men" and disciples on the forum. And a place where he can feel powerful, and control others because he probably can't in any other aspect of his life. Saddam Hussein was kind of like that. Kiss my butt and worship me as the all-knowing and powerful leader, or I'll end your life. If you don't worship Nyman on his site, he ends your ability to post or even READ his forum.

You may be willing to put up with that in order to read his site, but I'm not. I'm not going to kiss his butt and take everything he says as gospel. I know enough about the swing to produce excellent hitters without having to go back onto Nyman's forum. What I do doesn't affect him, and what he believes or does, doesn't affect me or my business, so I'll just stay off of his forum.

I agree with the statement that you posted regarding Steve E. It is impossible to teach the swing over the internet. You need to be in person with the student. So, it is foolish of me to get into discussions about the swing, or try to answer questions even on open forums like this one. My bad, I won't do it anymore. Come to my facility if you want to learn to hit.

wogdoggy

11-17-2005, 10:50 AM

You could do worse than getting an Epstein or Mankin DVD/tape. But personally I'd save my money and get the correct info. Saves you money in the long run as your search $$$ is no longer needed.

any color i want? save money get the correct info...lol...used car sales

hit-it-hard

11-17-2005, 12:30 PM

any color i want? save money get the correct info...lol...used car sales

You always have such intelligent posts. :laugh

I've noticed the used car sales is a reference is one you make a lot. Anyone who thinks promotes a system that doesn't agree with your belief system gets that label. Never any reason to back it up except some sarcastic one-liner.

So why don't help us poor uninformed folks out and tell us why Mankin is the way to go. Really explain it. Describe the difference in Mankin and Nyman and Epstein for us? Tell us what is "rotational hitting" in your opinion? Educate us. I'm open to new ideas. I want to learn.

jbooth

11-17-2005, 01:13 PM

You always have such intelligent posts. :laugh

I've noticed the used car sales is a reference is one you make a lot. Anyone who thinks promotes a system that doesn't agree with your belief system gets that label. Never any reason to back it up except some sarcastic one-liner.

So why don't help us poor uninformed folks out and tell us why Mankin is the way to go. Really explain it. Describe the difference in Mankin and Nyman and Epstein for us? Tell us what is "rotational hitting" in your opinion? Educate us. I'm open to new ideas. I want to learn.

You didn't reply directly to me, but I'll offer MY OPINION.

Mankin, Nyman and Epstein are all very close, if not exactly on the same page, in regard to general philosophy and the fundamentals. Where they begin to separate is when you get to highly advanced nuances. As an objective outside analyzer of each of their teachings, it is MY OPINION, due to a gift of understanding LANGUAGE and communication, that many times (not always) they are describing the same thing, only using different words and phrases, to try and communicate it to the student. A person could easily misunderstand what any one of them is saying, and not get the point.

Epstein is not a scientist and he doesn't speak in absolutes like Nyman the engineer, and having been an athlete, he sometimes unintentionally leaves out some items that he assumes you would know, or that he takes for granted, that everybody would do a certain thing, without having to be taught it. Nyman, on the other hand, dots every "I" and crosses every "T" to the point of absurdity and his tendency is to criticize anybody who doesn't do that. Nyman is hung up on the physics, and Epstein focuses on how to show you how to hit. Epstein teaches players how to play, Nyman teaches other engineers the physics of the swing, IMO. Mankin does a bit of both.

You won't ruin a player using any of their products. If you want to ruin a hitter's chances of making it to a high level, buy Dave Hudgens' stuff or Tony Gwynn's, or Charlie Lau's or Dusty Baker's. That's MY OPINION.

My opinion is based upon what I believe is my own fairly thorough study of the swing, and objective analysis of many other teacher's beliefs, and I've tried different methods myself (my swing), and I've taught different methods and I can tell you that the students that I taught the Hudgens method, didn't do very well, and the ones that I've taught my method (which is my own combination of elements from myself, Epstein, Nyman and Mankin), have been incredibly successful.

wogdoggy

11-17-2005, 01:17 PM

I've noticed the used car sales is a reference is one you make a lot. Anyone who thinks promotes a system that doesn't agree with your belief system gets that label. Never any reason to back it up except some sarcastic one-liner.

So why don't help us poor uninformed folks out and tell us why Mankin is the way to go. Really explain it. Describe the difference in Mankin and Nyman and Epstein for us? Tell us what is "rotational hitting" in

you like sarcasm? good!,,cause i can smell rotten miles away and nyman is rotten and so are his trolls,,and you know how you can tell? read between the lines.no need to explain myself to you,,you seem a little bitter.or maybe your just part of the cult..either way you aint worth it.ill take mine in red,that is of course if you can deliver,,rumor is set pro never does.lol:dance :waving :laugh but personally id save money and get the real deal..THAT ONE RULES...

hit-it-hard

11-17-2005, 02:01 PM

You didn't reply directly to me, but I'll offer MY OPINION.

Mankin, Nyman and Epstein are all very close, if not exactly on the same page, in regard to general philosophy and the fundamentals. Where they begin to separate is when you get to highly advanced nuances. As an objective outside analyzer of each of their teachings, it is MY OPINION, due to a gift of understanding LANGUAGE and communication, that many times (not always) they are describing the same thing, only using different words and phrases, to try and communicate it to the student. A person could easily misunderstand what any one of them is saying, and not get the point.

Epstein is not a scientist and he doesn't speak in absolutes like Nyman the engineer, and having been an athlete, he sometimes unintentionally leaves out some items that he assumes you would know, or that he takes for granted, that everybody would do a certain thing, without having to be taught it. Nyman, on the other hand, dots every "I" and crosses every "T" to the point of absurdity and his tendency is to criticize anybody who doesn't do that. Nyman is hung up on the physics, and Epstein focuses on how to show you how to hit. Epstein teaches players how to play, Nyman teaches other engineers the physics of the swing, IMO. Mankin does a bit of both.

You won't ruin a player using any of their products. If you want to ruin a hitter's chances of making it to a high level, buy Dave Hudgens' stuff or Tony Gwynn's, or Charlie Lau's or Dusty Baker's. That's MY OPINION.

My opinion is based upon what I believe is my own fairly thorough study of the swing, and objective analysis of many other teacher's beliefs, and I've tried different methods myself (my swing), and I've taught different methods and I can tell you that the students that I taught the Hudgens method, didn't do very well, and the ones that I've taught my method (which is my own combination of elements from myself, Epstein, Nyman and Mankin), have been incredibly successful.

Good post Jim. I pretty much agree with you. Again, I think Nyman is the closest and I disagree a little that all the differences are in highly advanced nuances - though I agree that many are - I think I get where you're coming from. For example, I really don't think Epstein's drop-and-tilt is at all the same as, or as efficient as, Nyman's tilt-and-rotate around the spine. May be my bad, but I really don't think Epstein teaches the same thing there. Also, I think the initial loading is different enough to impact the swing.

But I think you can get a long way with Epstein or Nyman... and with Mankin too although I think he doesn't emphasize the major points enough that it ensures the normal dad doesn't get too bogged down in teaching THT/BHT and misses the forest (rotation, connection) for the trees.

hit-it-hard

11-17-2005, 02:06 PM

you like sarcasm? good!,,cause i can smell rotten miles away and nyman is rotten and so are his trolls,,and you know how you can tell? read between the lines.no need to explain myself to you,,you seem a little bitter.or maybe your just part of the cult..either way you aint worth it.ill take mine in red,that is of course if you can deliver,,rumor is set pro never does.lol but personally id save money and get the real deal..THAT ONE RULES...

That's what I figured. Same ol' uninformative response. Boy you really told me, didn't you. I'm guessing you can't explain any of the items I asked because you don't have a clue.

wogdoggy

11-17-2005, 05:35 PM

you know you stil havent said one informative thing yourself.another nyman groupie working a baseball board,give it a rest,spare us the drivel.100 bucks says you were never much of an athlete.YOU really havent a clue.:laugh :laugh :laugh

wogdoggy

11-17-2005, 05:40 PM

So why don't help us poor uninformed folks out and tell us why Mankin is the way to go. Really explain it. Describe the difference in Mankin and Nyman and Epstein for us? Tell us what is "rotational hitting" in your opinion? Educate us. I'm open to new ideas. I want to learn

lol.yeah you want to eventually tell us not to waste our money and go directly to nyman,,,can ya be a lil less obvious,,unless of course you are just bright enough to think we can talk swing mechanics in a chat room or how "scap" loading works,,or top hand torque,or bottom hand torque and disconnection..go to the nyman sight,you can all circle toghjether and form the you know what,,and yet another informative post about snakes in the grass.

pgibbons

11-17-2005, 08:09 PM

Thanks everyone for your opinions.

Reading different hitting "experts" web-sites and trying to figure out which one has the most accurate information is a lot of work. Since I have no chance of making the Majors, I think I'll just give up on the research and go swing a bat instead.

Ursa Major

11-17-2005, 11:58 PM

PGib, it's not that hard. Between JBooth on one side and HIH on the other, you have me in the middle with the straight scoop. :)

Here's the problem. You can get Star Wars III, with all it's special effects and umpty-ump hours bonus features for $14.99. But, the cheapest video that comes close to explaining rotational mechanics is Jack Mankin's amateurish "Final Arc" on batspeed.com for $39.95. And it has some holes in it.

Now, it depends on what you're hoping to achieve. Mankin is fine to get you started, and if you're willing to devote the time to get some of the details from his web site and Nyman's, you'll be ahead of about 95% of the hitters out there. It's hard to make a recommendation, because we don't know how old you are, how good you are, and how serious about the game you are. At the very least, I'd look through batspeed.com and Mankin's various essays to at least get a feel for how rotational hitting (or at least his interpretation of rotational hitting theories) fit what you want to achieve. Once you feel conversant with the general concepts and have tried them yourself with a batting tee and at a batting cage, you might want to lurk on Nyman's site and look at the forum where the resident experts analyze various amateurs' swings. They've probably broken down close to a hundred of them (including an unintentionally hilarious thread where -- as God is my witness -- they all sweat over the mechanics of a four year old girl). By doing so, you get a good picture of the differences between good swings and those with flaws.

But, as Jim says, you've got to have a pretty sharp BS detector, because many of them -- and especially Nyman -- clearly get so caught up with the physics that they lose sight of the fact that the techniques ultimately have to be applied by (usually) youngsters. And those with any skills are somehow afraid to cross or criticize Nyman when he strays into areas beyond his expertise for fear that they're going to be barred from picking up the next morsel of magic coming from Mt. Olympus.

It's too bad, in a way, as the site has incredibly talented people and with any sense Nyman could have his name as famous on hitting as Epstein, or as Dick Mills and Tom House are on pitching. And the charitable impulses of the crowd there in helping newbies and analyzing their swings are to be commended, although I suspect that most of their motivation is to one-up each other with the astuteness of their analyses.

I think I've sucked out of there whatever about 95% of the benefits that I can reasonably use in coaching my kids next season. There's a limit to what they can absorb in that amount of time. Any that need more advanced training will be given directions to Jim's training school.

And, it's a good thing that I have extracted what I can use, because I too have been banished this evening from Nyman's forums, without warning or explanation. My sin? I think it was simply announcing on three threads in one forum that Jim had been banished as a courtesy to people whose "conversations" with Jim had been interrupted. Oddly, that all happened a day-and-a-half ago without reaction from Nyman.

In fact, what may have been the final straw was my post this evening in response to a new but intelligent poster, who essentially said "All this kinesiology is meaningless to real players and doesn't help in the instructions, as it's too abstract to even guide hitters to the cues they can use to take advantage of the physics. Bye now, because I now I'm going to be banished." Everyone of course dumped on the guy. I noted that the guy had made one intelligently articulated point that I felt destroyed his whole thesis -- he'd said that maybe it made sense to discuss the ultimate physiological effects of swing mechanic ideas to make sure you didn't torque some poor kid into an injury. So, it may well be that my final "crime" was -- despite my ultimate castigation of the guy -- in suggesting that (a) there was a morsel of truth in his analysis that in fact supported h-m.org's work, and (b) the guy was articulate in his way of validating that work. The problem seems to be that the merits of anyone's ideas take lower precedence than the issue of whether he is a full-fledged supporter of all of Nyman's work. And that is why Nyman will only be Salieri, never Mozart.

Ursa Major

11-18-2005, 12:05 AM

Wogdoggy said: You know you stil havent said one informative thing yourself.another nyman groupie working a baseball board,give it a rest,spare us the drivel.100 bucks says you were never much of an athlete.YOU really havent a clue.Hey, guy, why are you being such a pain in the rear? I've always thought of you as a straight-up guy; after all, you're the one who directed me to rotational hitting in general and Mankin in particular. I think HIH knows what he's talking about and he seems to have the sense to know there are limits and qualifications to the expert advice on the Nyman boards. But you can't seriously dispute that the quality of analysis there is far better than on Batspeed.com or anyone else. Mankin seems to draw in the trolls and newbies, unfortunately. So, what's the benefit to you or any of us in talking nonsense, or making baseless personal attacks on other folks?

hit-it-hard

11-18-2005, 07:09 AM

pgibbons,

UM's 10:58 post was very good. :clapping Assuming you are somewhat new to this style of swing, I would recommend going with what he said. Start with either Epstein or Mankin (I would suggest Nyman too but I don't think he sells his CD any longer). Then once you have an understanding of what they're saying take a look at h-m.org, batspeed.com or even post here for more details.

If you choose Mankin (cheapest route), my suggestion would be to leave off the THT/BHT that he discusses. If you choose Epstein, consider looking at Nyman's site for his posture adjustments which is where I believe he has a better understanding of what good hitters do.

As UM says, you'll be far ahead of most hitters by going any of these routes.

jbooth

11-18-2005, 08:48 AM

Peter, UM's 10:58 post was very good. :clapping

If you choose Mankin (cheapest route), my suggestion would be to leave off the THT/BHT that he discusses. If you choose Epstein, consider looking at Nyman's site for his posture adjustments which is where I believe he has a better understanding of what good hitters do.

As UM says, you'll be far ahead of most hitters by going any of these routes.

Nyman's Posture adjustment is BS. MLB hitters do NOT move their head after they initiate the swing, unless they are fishing for a low outside pitch, or a low inside pitch, and not all of them do it even then. Nyman's analysis is totally flawed. He never played the dang game so he doesn't understand that you can't come to absolute conclusions based upon watching GAME swings. You can't watch homerun derby swings either. You need to watch their BP swings. That's where they are trying to swing with the best swing they can make.

Most MLB hitters stand fairly erect when they await the delivery of the pitch. They crouch down into their actual swing posture just about at release point. As they crouch, their head mostly drops down vertically. Nyman has misinterpreted this as being part of the swing and visually missed the fact that the movement is down vertically, as they crouch and set, not a tilt toward the plate.

Yes, in GAME swings, sometimes the head moves a bit more to change posture, but it happens most often when the hitter feels the need to get out of his BP swing in order to contact the ball he has decided to swing at. He will tilt the head more sometimes, on very low pitches. This is a reaction to the pitch, not a planned posture change. What they want to do is what Epstein teaches. They change the tilt of the shoulders and elbows to adjust, not the tilt of the spine. They may do both if they feel they must, to hit the pitch, but it isn't something they practice and put in their swing.

Likewise, Nyman is full of BS on elbow tuck. In order to keep the hands inside the ball, which all MLB hitters try to do, the elbow needs to stay close to the body. Now, that doesn't mean that you drop it early and stick it to the side while you rotate, it means that it stays near the body as it passes by the torso during the swing. Again, in BP it is fairly close to the side. In a game, it will touch the torso on inside pitches, and it will move a bit away from the body on outside pitches.

He's full of BS when he says the hips don't move significantly ahead of the shoulders. He says the whole body rotates all at once. That is the BIGGEST mistake of all of his errors in analysis. Every MLB hitter wants to get his hips going first. When you watch it in slow-motion it appears that everything starts together, but if you look closely you will see that when the hips are almost completely turned with the belly-button facing the pitcher, the shoulders are not turned all the way yet. That proves that the batter put muscle force into moving the hips before the shoulders. The whole body started to turn at the same instant but the hips are ahead of the shoulders which means the force went there first.

There are more errors in his analysis of what he sees, but I'll save those for later. Epstein could do better in his explanations of some things, but in most of them he is correct. He is flawed in his analysis of how the weight shifts during rotation, and he incorrectly emphasizes keeping the weight on the back foot. And, he believes that hitters tilt back a bit toward the back foot, which is incorrect. They are absolutely vertical.

Nyman criticizes Epstein's drills, but drills are meant to progam the brain with a "feeling" of the desired movement, so you exaggerate the movement in the drill. You don't make a game swing with the drill.

wogdoggy

11-18-2005, 09:01 AM

Captain Cold Nose

11-18-2005, 09:13 AM

Booth ,,,this sounds like the same troll Mark H on the other board.lol.Jim dont you know if you just look at the clips of major league hitters youd have all the answers.Nyman is a shmoe but his trolls are worse.:hp
wogdoggy, unless you have something to add besides insulting those who are actually contributing to this thread, please keep it to a pm with whom you disagree with and work it out there or state an opinion as to why the systems you don't approve of do not work. Personal attacks of other members are forbidden on this site.

hit-it-hard

11-18-2005, 09:16 AM

jbooth

11-18-2005, 11:07 AM

Jim,

My first comment would be that I think you're letting personal feelings about Nyman get in the way of an objective assessment. Just a few days back you said Nyman had it more correct than everyone else. Now he's kicked you off his board and he's wrong on almost every major detail. Understandable as he treated you poorly, but I'd just suggest not throwing the message out with the messenger.

I still think he has most of it right. In regard to stating the physics of the swing and why, what the good hitters do, create the best physics. Dr. Adair wrote a book on the physics, and he and Nyman are in synch. You can't argue scientific facts. My dispute, is that Nyman is flawed in his analysis of how the human body creates the forces that he has identified through science. Dr. Adair doesn't try to teach you baseball, or tell you how the good hitters swing, he just tells you the result of what their movements create according to the laws of physics. I didn't state my opinion on Nyman's site because he would have kicked me off in a heartbeat. I actually just lurked for quite awhile without posting so I could digest and analyze what he and others were stating. Then I couldn't resist posting (bad judgment). I like reading what others think, it's difficult for me not to participate, but participation gets you kicked out unless you kiss his butt.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on posture adjustments. When we switched from Epstein drop-and-tilt to Nyman's tilt-and-turn, we saw major improvements. So we showed it to the whole team. And the same thing happened there. Admittedly a small sample size but I also see it I view video. Maybe a limitation of what I can currently see but I don't think so. I would recommend anyone studying Epstein to look at both and video of hitters and make up their own mind.

As I said, posture adjustments DO occur, but don't you think it is possible that you just didn't completely understand Mike's method of adjusting to the pitch? I agree, that he doesn't explain that (and some other things) as well as he could.

From what I can I think the elbow tuck is more of a miscommunication between you and Paul than anything else. I didn't read the thread in enough detail but I don't think you two are as far off as either of you think.

ABSOLUTELY, I AGREE 100% The post that got me kicked off was simply an attempt by me, to get further clarification from him, so that I could verify the fact that we were on the same page. He misunderstood my intent and thought I was disagreeing with him and he kicked me out.

The hips leading the shoulders thing is a little like THT for me. It might be happening in a number of swings but it definitely isn't happening in others.

I don't mean to be rude, but it is not at all like that. Firing the hips first is a fundamental principle of swinging that has been around since before Babe Ruth. As a kid I read it in a book by Al Kaline, I read articles where MIckey Mantle talked about it. Willie Mays told Barry Bonds that he needed to get his hips going quicker, and Barry has attributed that to his increase in power. Ted Williams says it's THE most important thing in hitting; Babe Ruth thought so also, yet YOU think it is a debatable issue? And Paul (never played the game) Nyman thinks it doesn't happen. I don't know what clips you've been looking at, but I sure see the hips leading the way, and I know that the good hitters have that thought foremost in their minds, whether they actually accomplish it or not.

To me concentrating on it versus connection & rotation for beginning hitters is like trying to get the last 5% when you don't have the first 95%. The more important thing is Dixon's idea of moving from the middle and turning as a unit

I disagree. The sooner you can get a beginner to learn that he needs to use his legs for balance, and he needs to rotate from the ground up, the sooner he gets better. You can stay connected and rotate your shoulders all you want, but if you don't turn the hips first, you can't get the shoulders moving very well. Your hips ARE the MIDDLE! Muscles move BONES, there are no bones (other than the spine) between your hips and the bottom ribs. When you move your hips, the MIDDLE (as you call it) moves!

When the hips start to turn; the front external oblique muscles stretches; at a certain point of maximum stretch (because you hold the shoulder in), it pulls the front shoulder, then it contracts to accelerate the shoulders. The hips get the shoulders moving, that's why it APPEARS in clips, to look like they are turning to together. They ARE, but you don't start them at the same time. The hips get EVERYTHING going. Paul changed his view reluctantly and innocuosly after I pointed to clips of Barry Bonds' swing. He then did a simulation with 4 different weights on a rigid bar and on a string, and proved my contention, although he never mentioned that I had anything to do with it, or that I knew that without having to see a simulation. His 4 weights represented the hips, shoulders, hands and bathead. It shows that those objects, rotating in that sequence, produce the greatest velocity in the bathead. The energy transfers from one to the other unless you do something to block the flow.

Did Dixon ever play at all? Don't get me wrong. You don't have to have been an MLB player to be able to understand the swing and teach it, but it HELPS. It helps to have at least played at an above average amateur level. An above average amateur can do fine. I have a hard time believing that someone who NEVER played, or never played very well at an amateur level, can fully communicate how to swing.

Ursa Major

11-18-2005, 11:33 AM

I think that all three of you are right ... Jim I, HIH, and Jim II. ;) And HIH, thank you for your compliments. I agree that THT is just not worth the attention. BHT is just Nyman's fishhook, and I think buddy Jim here teaches it better than either of 'em. We had one kid who had a monster hitting year last year even with a horrible launch, because he "hooked" magnificently at the end of his swing and reached the outfield on about two-thirds of his at-bats.

Maybe my understanding of what Nyman is teaching is skewed because I discount some of what he says and attribute to him some of the adjustments actually put forward by him more experienced minions.

Posture. As far as the posture adjustments, I think what is being pushed is not an adjustment of the head angle but of the spine, so that the swing plane is perpendicular to the spine wherever possible. I'm not sure how HIH teaches it (and apparently successfully), but I believe it's Teacherman who basically said, "If it's low, stick your butt out to make the adjustment." Certainly some major leaguers find the time to do that successfully, although that may rely in part on the fact that they have the torso strength and butt size to swing hard in what otherwise could be an ungainly posture.

I agree there is a question about whether the hitter can pre-load his shoulder blades to adjust the angle of his spine and bat before he starts his launch. When people started to challenge Paul's assessment of it, you could sense he was starting to go into the "make it up as I go along" BS mode that I described in my email to you of last night. How can you adjust for the height of the pitch that early when you don't know if it's a straight change or a 12-to-6 curve ball? (I asked that question on the board but got bounced before anyone tried to answer. Hmmm, maybe that's why I was banned -- for noticing again that the emperor had no clothes.) But, I don't think it hurts for moderately talented kids to at least think along the line of swing plane = perpendicular to spine.

Elbow tuck. I agree with HIH that "the elbow tuck is more of a miscommunication between you and Paul than anything else." I think Nyman had decided you were a servant of Satan and was just trying to pile on with the others about your swing when he was engaging you about tucking, which explains why he wouldn't elaborate on your criticism. But it's fair to say you both agree that you can tuck near the end and, where necessary on inside pitches. But, I don't think in that thread Nyman was being clear enough for anyone either to say he was "wrong" or that anyone could be misled by his advice.

Timing of hips and shoulders. I'm a little confused here. Again, maybe I've just melded everyone's advice on the forum, but my recall is that it was agreed by Paul that hips have to lead and torso and shoulder motion has to be fused with but still caused by the hip turn, with the shoulders ultimately catching up with and moving past the hips. So, it may look like they're all moving together, but you want to think hips first to make sure the shoulders don't start up first. The hips will accelerate faster at first so that the hips get square to the pitcher before the chest, but this doesn't disprove that they should all be moving with some kind of linkage. Think of it like a slinky dangling straight down with a baseball affixed at the dangling end; if you rotate the slinky 180 degrees, the ball will start moving at the same time as your hand but more slowly because the slinky isn't rigid, but ultimately the ball will catch up and move more than the 180 degrees that your hand did.

JBooth said: Nyman criticizes Epstein's drills, but drills are meant to progam the brain with a "feeling" of the desired movement, so you exaggerate the movement in the drill. You don't make a game swing with the drill.Brother Jim has that right. And I think the Nymanoids who are on the board and who actually coach probably realize that, but are afraid to point that out. Silly me for thinking I was contributing to the threads by suggesting that drills have some purpose other than practicing the perfect swing every time.

One of the aspects of rotational hitting that I find attractive is that it conceptually is a simple and cohesive dynamic, so there aren't too many different drills necessary. To be sure, you may invent a few of Jim's exaggerated drills to overcome a specific issue, but it's basically just:
1. Stay connected and don't lead with your top elbow,
2. Drop your front heel and rotate from the hips through shoulders,
3. Mind the swing plane and adjust for inside/outside,
4. Keep your front elbow up,
5. Hook/BHT just before contact (or, as Jim suggests, squeeze the handle with the bottom hand's bottom three fingers),
6. Don't forget to touch 'em all on your way around the bases.

You probably only need one or two drills that focus on each of points 1,2,4 and 5.

UM

hit-it-hard

11-18-2005, 12:00 PM

...don't you think it is possible that you just didn't completely understand Mike's method of adjusting to the pit

First I think we're also in more agreement than you think. I just happen to be stressing specific areas where I think Nyman is more correct.

Definitely could be that I didn't understand Mike correctly - feel free to set me straight. What I see from Epstein hitters is poor adjustment to low pitches on a regular basis. Weathervaning rather than body tilt or tilted backwards where their momentum moves away from the ball rather than into it. I rarely see weathervaning being what good hitters do to reach a pitch at the knees. I do seem them tilt forward and then rotate into it (not back/laterally).

I don't mean to be rude, but it is not at all like that. Firing the hips first is a fundamental principle of swinging that has been around since before Babe Ruth.

I agree hips/middle are where the swing starts. I think the middle starts the rotation and (here's where we differ) everything turns with it as a unit. Letting the other elements torso, shoulders, arms lag behind is another form of disconnection. There will be some natural separation but its a no-teach to me as I've found teaching it causes problems. I don't think getting hips a certain amount ahead of torso/shoulders is nearly as important (the so-called X-factor) as staying connected. And my take from Epstein DVDs was the torque drill emphasized the difference in angles too much.

Btw, I don't think you're being rude. We're just discussing and trying to learn from each other.

Did Dixon ever play at all? Don't get me wrong. You don't have to have been an MLB player to be able to understand the swing and teach it, but it HELPS. It helps to have at least played at an above average amateur level. An above average amateur can do fine. I have a hard time believing that someone who NEVER played, or never played very well at an amateur level, can fully communicate how to swing.

I don't have any clue if he played. And I don't care. I evaluate what players say, scientist say, grandma says, whomever... see if it makes sense and can be applied. Dixon had some real revelations on moving the middle and I'm going to use them. One problem with using the player as your model is who do you choose and how do you hande conflicting information? Players disagree about what they think they are doing. So then who do you choose? For instance, Englishbey played at AAA and says that knowing what Nyman teaches probably would have put him over the top. He played, so should you believe him? And Bonds, like many other players has made statements about taking his hands to the ball - most watching his swing would disagree that this is what he does. Not saying to avoid using their inputs as they can be very valuable, but not to discount everyone else.

Good dialog. Thanks for sticking with me.

Ursa Major

11-18-2005, 12:10 PM

Jim, I posted this last long post before seeing yours, so it obviously doesn't respond to yours. There's really nothing that I would take issue with, so I won't bore everyone by pretending to elaborate on your excellent analysis.
One question and one point:

You say -- "When the hips start to turn; the front external oblique muscles stretches; at a certain point of maximum stretch (because you hold the shoulder in), it pulls the front shoulder, then it contracts to accelerate the shoulders."

Well, Mr. "Why-don't-they-call-a-scapula-a-frickin'-shoulder-blade", could you be a little less technical for those of us with liberal arts degrees? I googled the term and it looks like it's the side waist/rib muscles. Right?

You then went on to say, "It shows that those objects, rotating in that sequence, produce the greatest velocity in the bathead. The energy transfers from one to the other unless you do something to block the flow." Yeah, that's what I was trying to say and sounds better than my slinky metphor.

jbooth

11-18-2005, 02:03 PM

Definitely could be that I didn't understand Mike correctly - feel free to set me straight. What I see from Epstein hitters is poor adjustment to low pitches on a regular basis. Weathervaning rather than body tilt or tilted backwards where their momentum moves away from the ball rather than into it. I rarely see weathervaning being what good hitters do to reach a pitch at the knees. I do seem them tilt forward and then rotate into it (not back/laterally).

Properly adjusting to low pitches, especially low and inside is very difficult. Mike teaches you to get your back shoulder down and your front elbow up. This is a good example of the fact that he was a player hurts him. He assumes you know that to get the back shoulder down and still be able to rotate, you have to tilt the spine a little bit also. You and others also misunderstand what he means by weathervaning. He was just trying to present a visual image of how the bat and elbows look when they move in the swing. The parts of a weather vane cannot move independently, they move together. That's what he means. The elbows move in synch. One mirrors the other. One goes down, and the other goes up, simultaneously. And, again he assumes that you are going to do it in synch with shoulder movement (stay connected.) You're not supposed to move one elbow independently of the other (as I did in my swing clip.)

I agree hips/middle are where the swing starts. I think the middle starts the rotation and (here's where we differ) everything turns with it as a unit.

No, the feet/legs, and hip flexors start the rotation which then pull the shoulders, then the torso muscles add force to the shoulder rotation to get them to catch up to the hips.

Letting the other elements torso, shoulders, arms lag behind is another form of disconnection.

No, it isn't. That's how you create the torque, or more proper if you are a Nymanite, torsion.

There will be some natural separation but its a no-teach to me as I've found teaching it causes problems. I don't think getting hips a certain amount ahead of torso/shoulders is nearly as important (the so-called X-factor) as staying connected. And my take from Epstein DVDs was the torque drill emphasized the difference in angles too much.

The separation isn't natural, it has to be created, and it is created by moving the hips first, to windup the spring that will unleash tremendous power in the connected box, which is the shoulders and arms. If you don't stretch the muscles in the side, you can't uncork the shoulders with as much power. The purpose of Epstein's "Torque drill", is to get you to feel the stretch in your side, and how it gives you tremendous ability to rotate Nyman's connected box. Again, it is a DRILL, to "FEEL" the muscle action. When you actually swing, you need to practice and figure out for yourself, how to stretch and contract quickly enough to catch up to a fastball. Bonds does it by setting an angle in his shoulders unequal to the line of his hips. Then, as soon as he moves his hips, the side muscle is immediately stretched, (if not already stretched before he even moves his hips.) That's why it looks like he's moving everything together. The instant he moves his hips, the stretched muscle in the side, pulls his shoulders. Then, that muscle contracts, and his shoulders accelerate like nobody else's, and try to catch up with the hips.

And Bonds, like many other players has made statements about taking his hands to the ball - most watching his swing would disagree that this is what he does.

That's right, he doesn't take his hands to the ball in a literal sense. This is another case where you need to understand baseball player language. Like Epstein, he is assuming you know what he really means. There are many sayings in baseball that make no sense literally (which confuses the heck out of Nyman). When he says he takes his hands to the ball, he really means that he moves them to the height of the pitch (that saying really means "move the hands to the height of the ball"), so that he can rotate the bat into the ball on the plane of the pitch. This is where Epstein and Nyman are both correct, but see different ways to do it. Nyman says Bonds gets his hands on plane by adjusting his spine tilt. Epstein says it's shoulder and elbow adjustment. None of them say to disconnect and actully move the hands toward the actual ball.

Most players have their butt out, and a steep tilted angle of their spine, by the time they drop their front heel down. They don't need to make much of a spine adjustment once they decide to swing, and any minute final adjustments are done by adjusting the elbow bend and angles.

I would guess that your players improved after you told them to tilt and swing, because they were too upright to begin with. I fix the problem by getting more initial tilt. Then they don't have to move the head when they swing.

Look at these frames in the sequence; top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right, and see how his hips obviously are racing ahead of the shoulders; also note how his head drops down veritically. Look at the light stand in the background above his head and note how the head goes down as he strides and squats, and there is very little change in his tilt that was pretty severe from the start:

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bonds4.jpg

Ursa Major

11-18-2005, 06:21 PM

Bonds does it by setting an angle in his shoulders unequal to the line of his hips. Then, as soon as he moves his hips, the side muscle is immediately stretched

Jim, does the "angle in his shoulders" refer to the counterrotation of the shoulders? As you know, the Nymanoids consistently condemn what they say is this aspect of Mike's program, asserting that back shoulder scap loading is better (i.e., pinching the shoulder blade back by, I presume, pushing back on the back shoulder). Is this a fair distinction? Do you teach counter rotation to your kids, or are you just allowing Bonds' exaggerated rotation to make the point that some hip/shoulder separation is good?

Part of the reason I mention the counterrotation, is that my old, linear self would teach kids to at least counter rotate hips, to get more snap and also just to get them more aggressive all the way around. I worry about too much turn in the shoulders during the preload, because at some point kids really have to twist their necks to get good their heads turned enough toward the pitcher to get good stereoscopic vision of the ball. (Remember hearing about Joe Pepitone getting a nose job because his Roman nose obscured his view of the pitcher?)

One of the attractions of rotational hitting to me is that, with it, the body should apply enough of the force so that kids don't need to counterrotate as much as before, making it easier for them to go straight to the ball (if you'll excuse the expression). If you look at the animated gif of your swing in Post #42, you'll see you don't counterrotate at all, and so you can start your swing when the ball is right on top of you. Then again, you're a strong guy and can generate plenty of force flat footed. So, for the moment I'm trying to see if "hiding the hands" is enough of a preload for my test subject, my 11 year old.

jbooth

11-18-2005, 07:56 PM

Jim, does the "angle in his shoulders" refer to the counterrotation of the shoulders?

Yes

As you know, the Nymanoids consistently condemn what they say is this aspect of Mike's program, asserting that back shoulder scap loading is better (i.e., pinching the shoulder blade back by, I presume, pushing back on the back shoulder). Is this a fair distinction?

They criticize Mike because they don't understand it. Of course you can't do a whole bunch of twisting while the ball is coming. Bond's has his body set so that his posture already has some of the torque created, he doesn't have to counterrotate much more to get a full stretch, and the hip turn sets the torque quickly because his shoulders are already partially counterrotated. He just fires his hips and within milleseconds he has created torque. The Nyman guys don't get it. You don't have to go through a big long movement to get the torque, but you MUST get it. You can't turn the hips and shoulders simultaneously and get as much power. Everybody scap loads, that is a matter of elbow and hand positioning. Bonds scap loads, AND creates torque, why do you think he hits it so far?

Part of the reason I mention the counterrotation, is that my old, linear self would teach kids to at least counter rotate hips, to get more snap and also just to get them more aggressive all the way around. I worry about too much turn in the shoulders during the preload, because at some point kids really have to twist their necks to get good their heads turned enough toward the pitcher to get good stereoscopic vision of the ball. (Remember hearing about Joe Pepitone getting a nose job because his Roman nose obscured his view of the pitcher?)

You don't have to preload very much if you do just like Bonds and many others. Just set the front shoulder in a bit as the pitch is released, then when you swing just fire the hips and the shoulders follow. That's all Bonds does.

One of the attractions of rotational hitting to me is that, with it, the body should apply enough of the force so that kids don't need to counterrotate as much as before, making it easier for them to go straight to the ball (if you'll excuse the expression). If you look at the animated gif of your swing in Post #42, you'll see you don't counterrotate at all, and so you can start your swing when the ball is right on top of you. Then again, you're a strong guy and can generate plenty of force flat footed. So, for the moment I'm trying to see if "hiding the hands" is enough of a preload for my test subject, my 11 year old.

Well, my swing has gone to heck, and those clips are not good examples, but yes, because my reflexes aren't what they were at 30 and my muscles don't fire as quickly, I try to set and fire as Bonds does. If I try to counter rotate, or even stride and swing, I'm late on 85mph pitches. I can catch up to 85+ if I just set the shoulder in, and fire the hips. The problem is; I've been working so much on my arm position/rotation that I forget to turn the hips first and I forgot to get my hands back (scap load), and then I have no power when I hit the ball even with the good box turn.

I've been working on my swing and it's looking and feeling better. Maybe I'll post a clip here.

hit-it-hard

11-19-2005, 12:10 AM

Properly adjusting to low pitches, especially low and inside is very difficult.

Interesting. I've had a very different experience with Nyman's tilt-and-turn. We've taught most of our team this posture in less than one season and the low ball is no longer an issue.

Mike teaches you to get your back shoulder down and your front elbow up. This is a good example of the fact that he was a player hurts him. He assumes you know that to get the back shoulder down and still be able to rotate, you have to tilt the spine a little bit also. You and others also misunderstand what he means by weathervaning.

Show me a clip of Mike's instruction where the spine is tilted over the plate to adjust for the low ball and I might buy your explanation and you a couple of beers. ;) I have 2 Epstein DVDs and a book and have never seen one. As far as I know his system doesn't teach you to tilt forward and rotate around your spine to hit the low pitch. From his book "the hitter must counteract the tilt of the pitch by tilting his body rearward so he can initially get on plane of the pitch". This is what he teaches and where he's wrong (IMO). He has momentum momentum moving in the wrong direction.

See the attached file to see Edmonds posture adjustment. Or see the Manny clip on h-m.org which Nyman post