To people who say long toss doesen't relate to velocity

[chisox2k5]

Pick up the latest issue of collegiate baseball (the cover story is umpires being background checked). Look through the magazine and look for the article at how 300ft long toss relates to 90mph velocity.

Cant wait to hear responses, maybe hearing it from an expert will set you guys straight...

[XFactor]

And then Sean comes to the rescue. Mwhahahha (White Sox suck)
Anyways, this is what Dick Mills had to say about the article in question:

"September 06, 2005

I recently read an article titled "If 300' Long Toss Equates To 90 MPH, Why Do Pitchers Throw 84?

This article appeared in the most recent edition of Collegiate Baseball magazine, Friday Sept. 2, 2005. The author of the article is Ron Wolforth, a self-professed baseball pitching velocity coach, and owner of a baseball pitching school in Houston, Texas.

I know Ron and I know him to be a good person...however he is completely misinformed in his knowledge of sports science training principles which govern how better performance is achieved in all of sports, including baseball pitching.

He is also misguided on the issue of how to produce more pitching velocity. There is no proof that long toss has any benefit to improving pitching velocity.

Many high school and college coaches will tell you that it seems to work for some but not for others. If it was a valuable training tool it would work for all. But it only "seems" to work for growing and developing pitchers.

The idea of this article is that if a pitcher has the capability of throwing the ball a very long distance, such as 300 feet then he should also be able to transfer that long toss ability to pitching from the mound with above average velocity such as 90 mph.

Wolforth goes on to advocate long toss without providing any evidence as to why long toss is valuable. Why is there no evidence? Because it does not exist and never will exist because long toss only seems to work for growing and developing pitchers - usually just high school or early college late developers. It has no value in improving pitching velocity for fully developed pitchers such as college or professional pitchers who have stopped growing.

Articles such as this, on the value of long toss or weighted baseballs or weight room training in improving pitching velocity are all based on only the beliefs of the authors of those articles.

The article begins with a hypothical pitching student asking Ron Wolforth a basic question. "Coach Worforth, you tell us that if you can throw a baseball 300 feet that equates to 90 mph. Yet, I throw it over 300 feet, and my velocity is 84-85 mph. What's my problem?"

Wolforth's answer is nothing more than mumbo-jumbo using an explanation about intent, goal clarification, and neuromuscular efficiency.

Now let me answer that hypothetical question for all the high school or college pitchers or interested coaches who wonder why long toss is not working as promised by the long toss advocate baseball coaches. It is simple and it is clear and it is irrefutable. Long toss does not convert to velocity from the mound because it does not comply with the sports science principle - the Principle of Specificity.

This simply means that long toss and pitching are two completly different activities or skills and the pitcher's body fully understands this. It also means that one activity does not transfer to another one. Wolforth even admits in the article that "The primary reason some young men can throw it over 320 feet in their long toss and not be able to top 85 mph to a batter and catcher is because they (and their bodies) view the two throws as completely different."

Wolforth could have summed up the rest of this article by saying that long toss does not work because it does not follow the Principle of Specificity because the body does view both activities as completely different and unique. He answered the question correctly but does not listen to himself but goes on with more mumbo-jumbo.

So the bottom line is that long toss does not work or transfer to off the mound pitching because Wolforth is correct - the body fully understands that they are two completely different types of throwing. It is not any more the same than throwing a javelin is the same just because the javelin is being thrown using a run up preparation like a crow-hop in long toss.

In fact, the only thing about long toss and pitching that are the same is the baseball. Nothing else is the same. If pitchers were able to crow-hop from the rubber into landing then that would be one thing that would be the same but even if that were so, long toss and pitching from a mound have a completely different release angle because long toss throws must be launched from a higher release position because the ball is going up not down toward the catcher's mitt. So if pitchers were allowed to crow-hop from the mound long toss would still not be valuable because the release position is different.

It is clear that Ron Wolforth or all the long toss advocates do not understand that pitching from the mound is a defined skill of throwing a baseball from a set distance, moving the body from one leg to the other from a stationary position while trying to hit a specific target.

So it is clear that long toss violates the Principle of Specificity which says you must perform the activity in practice if you expect to perform it in a game. Apparently, Ron Wolforth either is not aware of this sports science principle which has been governing sports for at least the last 50 years, or he believes he can rewrite it because he is not aware that the only pitchers that improve their velocity from long toss are growing and developing pitchers. This does not mean it works. It simply means that ignorance is creating improper conclusions.

Wolforth also mentions a story about a professional outfielder who has a 95 mph arm, has struggled to the point with hitting that he is going to be released and the organization says "Wait a minute. Let's make him a pitcher." So he jogs in from right field and low and behold somewhere between right field and the bump (mound), he loses 7-10 mph. How's that possible? Answer: Different rules and different goals. Bottom line, we want to take the energy, elasticity and athleticism involved in that 320 feet throw and condense it into 60 feet 6 inches."

My answer is you can't expect that outfielder to throw 90 mph anymore than you can expect a pitcher to be inserted in the lineup as the three hole hitter and be successful. Each requires a different skill. The reason that the outfielder can not throw 95 mph from the mound is simply because he has not learned the mechanical skill of doing it. It is not about his arm or his ability to throw using a crow hop from the outfield. He simply does not understand how to throw from a stationary position using good posture, shifting his weight properly at the correct time while moving downhill from one leg to the other. Is it possible for him to learn that? Maybe. But maybe not good enough to throw 90 or 95 mph. He may only achieve 85 mph no matter what he does or how hard he practices.

Again, pitching is not about arm strength it is about arm speed. Arm speed must be developed by using efficient mechanics throwing down hill from the mound practicing that a lot of the time. There is no other way to develop that skill - throwing from the mound.

If long toss was valuable for pitchers then it should certainly be valuable for outfielders. Why not just take all "weak armed" outfielders who now must play left field and by putting them on a long toss program turn them into "rocket armed" right-fielders. It doesn't work that way. So if it does not work for outfielders how on earth can it work for pitchers?

We also know based on a study done by the American Sports Medicine Institute in Birmingham that long tossing beyond 180 ft. adds stress to the throwing elbow. That study was posted in my previous article The Causes And Cures Of Most Baseball Pitching Problems, Auguest 14, 2005 on this blog.

Why might long toss be more stressful. It could very well be that the pitcher is not able to get the advanatage of gravity that he has while moving downhill from the mound so he must work harder using his arm. That is why throwing on flat ground is actually more stressful than throwing from the mound despite the beliefs by some pitching gurus and recommended by many misinformed coaches or instructors.

Apparently the value in long toss is that is you become a better long tosser however, as a pitcher you gain no skill that can help you perform better as a pitcher and you also add more stress to your arm. Not only do you waste considerable valuable time which could have been used to perfect the many skills required for pitching but you get closer to an arm injury.

Does this sound like a valuable activity for pitching?

Ron Wolforth also believes that pitchers need to have athleticism in order to throw with above average velocity. Why? After all pitching is a skill activity much more than an athletic activity. Pitching requires no more athleticism than does golf. Both are complex two-phase motor skills that require proper mechanics in order to reach a degree of success. Many golfers, even professionals who were not successful in other athletic sports are able to reach a high degree of success as golfers. This also goes for the weekend golfer.

After all pitchers only need to learn how to move from a stationary postion while shifting their weight from one leg to the other while learning how to position their arms properly. That skill can be learned. It certainly does not mean that everyone can throw 90 mph but pitchers can reach a degree of success by practicing the skill of pitching. And the absolute best way to gain that skill is to practice that skill while throwing from the mound, not by practicing on flat ground, not by practicing long toss, not by lifting weights to get stronger or not by throwing weighted baseballs.

I know of several high school pitchers who have improved their velocity by 10-13 mph in less than a year without doing long toss or lifting weights or throwing weighted baseballs. They improved their velocity by growing and developing. They gained natural strength as all pitchers do from growth and development.

The question begs to be answered by Ron Wolforth of how pitchers in the past, the large majority of which never long tossed or lifted weights...and yet they threw with above average velocity. Prior to the 80's long toss was not a popular activity for pitchers and yet thousands of pitchers at all levels were able to achieve above average velocity by just throwing from the mound. Or how is it that Little League pitchers at the ages of 10, 11 or 12 are able to reach velocities of 70 mph which is the equivilent of 90 mph since most do not long toss to any degree.

A baseball coach should be able to explain exactly how practicing one action benefits the performance of another completely different action to justify that long toss is a valuable practice activity for pitchers. This article has failed in doing that.

Articles such as this about pitching velocity by doing long toss or throwing weighted baseballs or doing weight training are all designed to hype some coach who would have you think he knows something others do not know about velocity improvement. This is unfortunate because thousands of high school and college pitchers are looking for straight answers that can be backed up with evidence or at least an explanation using sports science training principles or biomechanics. This article uses nothing more than mumbo-jumbo and does nothing to elevate the status of the author in terms of his knowledge of pitching performance improvement. He is taking pitchers down a blind alley.

Why doesn't the author of the article reveal how he came to these conclusions or developed these beliefs. In that regard he has nothing of value to give the reader. We can only conclude then that these are his beliefs about the value of long toss.

What the reader of that article does not realize is that he will get no improvement in his pitching by doing long toss. His long toss might get better. He might be able to improve his skill of long distance throwing and increase his distance substantially. However, that ability will not transfer to mound velocity no matter what the intention of the pitcher is.

Ron Wolforth may be a great long toss instructor. However, does he know how to help pitchers improve their throwing from a mound which is the only place where it truly counts. Time will tell.

This article will hurt far more pitchers than it will help. It clearly gives the impression that long toss is a "holy grail" for improving velocity. I know that not be to true and so don't thousands of high school and college pitchers who have tried it.

Unfortunately, in a baseball magazine you expect to get information designed to instruct not destruct a pitcher's ability to perform to his best. The one thing that all pitchers can never get back is wasted time...the single biggest asset they have if they want to reach their full potential.

I believe more baseball coaches must begin to step up to the plate and provide some proof that can be substantiated rather than expecting us to use blind faith in what they have to say. Their experience is not evidence it is belief.

As parents and players you must force those who hype the value of certain activities, such as long toss, pitching drills, weighted baseballs or weight training to explain their value using evidence.

Dick Mills" - Dick Mills

[chisox2k5]

And once again I can say that I wouldn't pay 2 cents to read any **** that comes out of Dick Mills' mouth.

[XFactor]

Well, that's your problem. Anyone who wants to become a halfway decent pitcher and wants to understand why they can throw 300 feet but not 90 MPH should read it. Anyone coach should read it to better understand pitching.

[YankeesCatcher]

I only play long toss because it's cool to see girls walk by and go. "Oh my god! They're throwing so far! They're so good!"

[K2 Master]

I'm almost 15 and I find that long toss has improved my velocity to a certain extent. I think the key to velocity is great mechanics and what Dick Mills said, to practice throwing off a mound would be more beneficial

[Ursa Major]

I think where Dick Mills went "off the reservation" is when he decided to try to rely on "scientific principles" to support his theories. For a battered old pitching coach to turn layman scientist, well, violates the Principle of Specificity a lot more than does turning an outfielder into a pitcher.

What Mills does is to violate rules of logic. Yes, if you do nothing but long toss, it will only marginally improve your pitching, just like if you do nothing but play pepper your hitting won't improve much. It's part of a comprehensive program to work different parts of the pitching musculature, Dude.

Now, I'm intrigued by Yankee Catcher's post. Assuming that he's still 11 (and how long has he had that moniker), as is my son, how many 11 year olds worry about impressing girls? :p

[XFactor]

I think where Dick Mills went "off the reservation" is when he decided to try to rely on "scientific principles" to support his theories. For a battered old pitching coach to turn layman scientist, well, violates the Principle of Specificity a lot more than does turning an outfielder into a pitcher.

Okay, so it's bad to be backed up by science? It's not proven that long toss helps improve velocity. Nolan Ryan didn't long toss when he first entered the league and he threw over 100 MPH. With everyone long tossing, shouldn't everyone have at least, AT LEAST an above average arm? If long toss worked for pitchers then it obviously would work for outfielders right? Yet if it did then they would have every weak armed OF in the Majors long toss (IE. Shannon Stewart, almost all of the Bo Sox OF, etc...)

My high school "coaches" *gag* took one of the hardest throwing OF's on the team and tried to have him pitch. He only threw 76 MPH... it doesn't translate. Just because you can throw 300 feet in long toss doesn't mean you can throw 90 MPH on the mound.

What Mills does is to violate rules of logic. Yes, if you do nothing but long toss, it will only marginally improve your pitching, just like if you do nothing but play pepper your hitting won't improve much. It's part of a comprehensive program to work different parts of the pitching musculature, Dude.

And what part of the pitching musculature do you think needs work? What should people be trying to improve for the pitching musculature

PS. I've liked girls every since I was in pre school, just some people don't like girls until they are 11...12...or never @_@

[Ursa Major]

XFactor said: Okay, so it's bad to be backed up by science? It's not proven that long toss helps improve velocity. Nolan Ryan didn't long toss when he first entered the league and he threw over 100 MPH. With everyone long tossing, shouldn't everyone have at least, AT LEAST an above average arm? If long toss worked for pitchers then it obviously would work for outfielders right? Yet if it did then they would have every weak armed OF in the Majors long toss (IE. Shannon Stewart, almost all of the Bo Sox OF, etc...)
X, history tells us that bad science is worse than no science. Mills' explanations for the scientific principles he adheres to display that he doesn't know how to discriminate between substantiable scientific research and junk science. I'd rather he went back to the old days where he relied on his observations.

Let's parse the rest of your argument. The issue isn't whether every good pitcher has thrown long toss, but whether a specific kid may benefit by long tossing. Maybe Ryan wouldn't have, or maybe he would have thrown 103 MPH by long tossing.

As for your assertion that "With everyone long tossing, shouldn't everyone have at least, AT LEAST an above average arm?" No, if everyone does the same drill, half will have above average arms and half will be below. The whole universe of throwers may throw farther than the identical group without long tossing, but your argument doesn't address that. As far as having weak armed outfielders throw long toss, well, we don't know if they do, but that doesn't address whether it will help pitching velocity, or even whether long toss has helped them improve from pathetically weak to just weak.

The logical flaw in you or Mills dismissing long tossing out of hand is that it assumes that the decision to long toss or not is a binary one -- you either do it exclusively and do nothing else, or you do not do it at all. How about trying it and assessing your speed improvement (if any) after a regimen of doing it. If it works, fine. If it doesn't, consider dropping it.

What I know is that my 11 year old son on the suggestion of a successful college pitcher and semi-pro pitching coach had taken it up, and his arm strength has increased and his pitches are faster with less effort (and thus with greater accuracy). Also, by doing the drill with the crow-hop suggested by the coach, it develops muscle memory to keep his hips closed longer. Would the improvement have come with a different drill? Maybe, but I don't know what that drill might be, so I'll continue with this one along with other drills he and I are comfortable with. If it didn't work, we'd drop it. I don't care if long tossing did or did not help Nolan Ryan or your outfielder friend. (And there are many physiological and psychological reasons that strong armed kids can't translate that strength into fast pitches on the mound.) All I care about is if it helps this kid and his teammates. I don't have to name the muscle groups that are worked by long tossing; I just put my Joe Torre autograph mitt on my hand and see how fast the ball gets to me from my kid's hand after a couple weeks of long tossing.

[XFactor]

"As for your assertion that "With everyone long tossing, shouldn't everyone have at least, AT LEAST an above average arm?" No, if everyone does the same drill, half will have above average arms and half will be below."

I'm just pointing out that if long toss DOES work, it would have to work for everyone else. It doesn't just decide to skip one person, improve 3 other people, then not improve someone else. If long toss did work it would improve everyone's arm who have tried it. The reason why your son is throwing harder could be because of any number of things, it just so happens your doing long toss now.
I'm not against long toss, I'm just saying it won't increase your velocity.
Do you know how fast your son throws? I'm just curious, and good luck with you and your son though. I hope he has a great future ahead of him

[YankeesCatcher]

What I do is a month before the season starts I run from flag pole to flag pole 45 times on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. And on the weekend drag someone out to long toss with me.

[chisox2k5]

"As for your assertion that "With everyone long tossing, shouldn't everyone have at least, AT LEAST an above average arm?" No, if everyone does the same drill, half will have above average arms and half will be below."

I'm just pointing out that if long toss DOES work, it would have to work for everyone else.

Uhhh no............. implying that if something works for one person it will work for everyone else is a ignorant blanket statement.

I'm not even going to bother responding to these dumb comments anymore.

[XFactor]

No, listen KID. Your saying long toss works. If it works it'd have to work for EVERYONE. There is no other way around it. In science, if they want to prove something, and 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 it worked, they wouldn't be able to prove anything because that 1 time it didn't work. It has to work all the time for you to say "Yes it works to gain velocity." It'd have to be 1,000,000 out of 1,000,000

[YankeesCatcher]

Such arguements....

I mean, long toss is fun! Who cares if you throw faster or not? Speed is the THIRD most important pitching key in the majors. Look at Tom Glavine or Greg Maddux, they don't throw like maniacs, but they paint corners and get by very addiquatly indeed.

[Ursa Major]

XFactor said: No, listen KID. Your saying long toss works. If it works it'd have to work for EVERYONE. There is no other way around it. In science, if they want to prove something, and 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 it worked, they wouldn't be able to prove anything because that 1 time it didn't work. It has to work all the time for you to say "Yes it works to gain velocity." It'd have to be 1,000,000 out of 1,000,000Well, I assume the capitalization of the word "kid" is intended to disparage YC due to his youth. I think that's inappropriate.

And, no, it doesn't have to work a million times out of a million. Ballplayers aren't paramecia or fruit flies. Bodies may differ.

Look, we're not trying to win a bar bet here. You're trying to raise the standard that the proponents of long toss have to clear so you can say you "won" the argument. That misses the point of the forum. As I said, the sole point is whether it seems to help enough people to make it worthwhile for others to try it to see if it works for them.

Let's go back to your science analogy. If you have a fatal illness and I said that I have an antidote that works 999,999 times out of a million dosages and has no side effects, would you refuse to take it because it isn't scientifically proven because it screwed up in that one time in a million?

As for my son, it's hard to say how fast he throws because are only timing device is a Sharper Image laser ball that measures elapsed time and converts it to a speed depending on distance. So, like my funky home scale, it may not measure accurately in absolute terms, but its fine for measuring differences with one person over time. Since starting formal long tossing a couple of months ago, he's probably gone from an average of 50-51 MPH to an average of 54 MPH. Also, I think his consistency has improved because he keeps his front side closed better. Whether he would have the same improvement if he just practiced pitching on a mound is hard to say.

[XFactor]

Well, I assume the capitalization of the word "kid" is intended to disparage YC due to his youth. I think that's inappropriate.

No... why would you think that? I'm obviously replying to the WhiteSox person... duh...

And, no, it doesn't have to work a million times out of a million. Ballplayers aren't paramecia or fruit flies. Bodies may differ.

Look, we're not trying to win a bar bet here. You're trying to raise the standard that the proponents of long toss have to clear so you can say you "won" the argument. That misses the point of the forum. As I said, the sole point is whether it seems to help enough people to make it worthwhile for others to try it to see if it works for them.

Let's go back to your science analogy. If you have a fatal illness and I said that I have an antidote that works 999,999 times out of a million dosages and has no side effects, would you refuse to take it because it isn't scientifically proven because it screwed up in that one time in a million?

Lets not act stupid here... That is a whole different thing. I would take it, but who is to say someone wouldn't just because it failed that 1 time?
What I'm saying is long toss doesn't add velocity. I'm not saying don't long toss. It has it's purposes... it just won't add velocity for a pitcher.
You people say long toss helps. Your son is 11 years old, there are so many different factors that to say that only long toss helped him would be just idiocy (I know you said that your not saying long toss is the only thing that helped him, which is good.)
If you say long toss helps, it should... but for everyone. What your son should be doing is:
1) Throwing from the mound at game intensity (bullpens) with emphasis on good mechanics and hitting his spots (IE. low and away, high and away, up and in, low and in)
2) Now he is only 11, if he really has the drive to get better then go ahead and do number 1, but if it's just a chance for him to enjoy playing with his friends, then who cares.. let him have fun (still emphasis good mechanics) but his focus shouldn't be just baseball. Friends, other sports, school obviously... but yeah..

The people who say long toss helps, but not for everyone.. it's like some math major saying "Well 4+5 = 9, usually.. but sometimes it's -4)
Using the correct pitching mechanics, refining them, getting the correct timing and rhythem down, and doing that repeatidily in bullpens will increase velocity. And a pitcher wants to work on mechanics and timing during his bullpen sessions, not in a game.

As for my son, it's hard to say how fast he throws because are only timing device is a Sharper Image laser ball that measures elapsed time and converts it to a speed depending on distance. So, like my funky home scale, it may not measure accurately in absolute terms, but its fine for measuring differences with one person over time. Since starting formal long tossing a couple of months ago, he's probably gone from an average of 50-51 MPH to an average of 54 MPH. Also, I think his consistency has improved because he keeps his front side closed better. Whether he would have the same improvement if he just practiced pitching on a mound is hard to say.

So who is teaching him pitching mechanics? Or is he just throwing?

And a few questions for you (Note I know what it means, I just want to make sure you do, and others as well.. because some people have different ideas and yeah): What does it mean to keep the front side closed. How do you get better consistency, be more accurate when you pitch?

[YankeesCatcher]

Mechanics are for chumps, just throw the ball.....

[Ursa Major]

XFactor:
1. I assume that your use of the term "KID" related to Yankee Catcher, because he identifies himself as an 11 year old. Nothing in ChiSox2K5's post seemed to call for a response of "KID". Oh well, never mind.

2. You people say long toss helps. Your son is 11 years old, there are so many different factors that to say that only long toss helped him would be just idiocy (I know you said that your not saying long toss is the only thing that helped him, which is good.) If you say long toss helps, it should... but for everyone. Here's where we have a problem. Yes, it's difficult to isolate any one factor that relates to his improvement. But the logical extension of saying we can't prove any one drill or factor improves velocity is to give up on every drill. At some point, we all have to use our experience in watching hundreds of kids play and practice baseball and come to judgments as to what may help. After five years of coaching in two different leagues, I can say kids whose arm strength improves slightly from generic practice seem to throw harder after we start regular long toss. To be honest, I can only say that I notice this in about a third of the cases, because I don't go through rigorous testing. But, backed up by other coaches I respect, I say let's try it for just about everyone. If they don't improve, we can drop it.

Why might it not work for everyone? Some are already so strong and fast they need to work on mechanics more. Some are still trying to get basic throwing mechanics down and trying to throw too hard and too long will just throw them off, so to speak. That does not negate the value of it for others. So, kids are different from math problems; sometimes 4 + 5 does equal 10. And, it's all cost/benefit analysis: if there's no cost to try, why not do so and see if there's a benefit.

3. What your son should be doing is:
1) Throwing from the mound at game intensity (bullpens) with emphasis on good mechanics and hitting his spots (IE. low and away, high and away, up and in, low and in) That is one thing he should be doing. The problem with relying solely on pitching from the mound is that kids get caught up on accuracy and landing properly that they don't learn to rear back and just throw hard.

4. What does it mean to keep the front side closed. How do you get better consistency, be more accurate when you pitch? The way his pitching coach teaches long toss is to have the kids crowhop with the plant leg coming behind the landing leg. This helps train the hip to not fly open until after the front foot plants. More accuracy comes from the fact that the greater arm strength allows him to throw his best speed with less effort or "distortion" (a term borrowed from a tennis pro friend of mine). The less you have to grunt to achieve the necessary velocity, the more likely you are to consistently hit your spots.

[XFactor]

Quote:
What does it mean to keep the front side closed. How do you get better consistency, be more accurate when you pitch?

The way his pitching coach teaches long toss is to have the kids crowhop with the plant leg coming behind the landing leg. This helps train the hip to not fly open until after the front foot plants. More accuracy comes from the fact that the greater arm strength allows him to throw his best speed with less effort or "distortion" (a term borrowed from a tennis pro friend of mine). The less you have to grunt to achieve the necessary velocity, the more likely you are to consistently hit your spots.

You still didn't answer what it meant to keep the front side closed. Unless your saying you want the hip to stay closed until after the front foot plants. Which is almost correct but not quite. When your pitching, you want your front foot to open up towards home plate at the last possible second. Why? Because you want to be closed for as long as possible before opening your hips... it helps transfer the elastic energy from the legs up through the arm. There is little to nothing you can do to get velocity after your lead foot touches the ground. So once that foot touches the ground, if his hips are still closed, he is losing velocity, and a good chunk of it too

Edited: And more accuracy comes from the repitive use of good mechanics used off a pitching mound. I'm not 100% against flat ground throwing. With a young player sometimes you want to go over some things before they get up to speed on the mound. But for the more developed players (the ones with good mechanics).. there is 100% no need to pitch on flat ground

[Ursa Major]

XFactor said:Unless your saying you want the hip to stay closed until after the front foot plants. Which is almost correct but not quite. When your pitching, you want your front foot to open up towards home plate at the last possible second.

I agree that you want to open the front foot at the last possible second.

There is little to nothing you can do to get velocity after your lead foot touches the ground. So once that foot touches the ground, if his hips are still closed, he is losing velocity, and a good chunk of it tooHere's where we disagree. My sources -- for example Bob Cluck, pitching coach of the Tigers, and Rick Ellis of TheCompletePitcher.com ("It’s here – after the front foot is firmly planted – that a pitcher finally rotates his trunk all the way through.") that say you open the hips after the foot strikes. In fact, the trunk in a way pivots around the front leg to give the snap. That's what I mean by keeping the front side closed. Do you have some coaching sources that advise to the contrary? (I'm not trying to be a wisea$s; I'm open to the best learning out there.)
And more accuracy comes from the repitive use of good mechanics used off a pitching mound. I'm not 100% against flat ground throwing. With a young player sometimes you want to go over some things before they get up to speed on the mound. But for the more developed players (the ones with good mechanics).. there is 100% no need to pitch on flat groundWell, flat ground throwing to achieve accuracy is a whole lot different than long toss to gain strength and speed. I agree that for developed players flat ground pitching may throw them off. My son is still eleven and has only pitched in four games, so he's still trying to develop his motion.

[wogdoggy]

you have real pitching COACHES on pro teams advocating long toss.Does dicky have some good ideas ?YES. Long toss is a great way to build arm speed and correct certain flaws.You must stay on top of the ball to throw straight or you'll really notice it on long toss.Long tossing with a changeup grip also devolops your change up like no other drill.Mills hasnt produced much of anything lately.Did his kid ever get tio the show? or was some team just stupid enough to give him a big sign on?

[Ursa Major]

Wogdoggy said: Long tossing with a changeup grip also devolops your change up like no other drill.Mills hasnt produced much of anything lately.Hey, that's a good idea. I'm trying to get my son to work on his changeup grip, but it's frustrating and not much fun. I'll try that.
Mills hasnt produced much of anything lately.Did his kid ever get tio the show? or was some team just stupid enough to give him a big sign on?Apparently his son had an arm injury. I think people try to make too much of his son's successes or lack thereof in determining the merits of his ideas. I don't think that's fair or helpful. I know a number of successful people and athletes whose kids either can't or won't follow in their parents' footsteps. (Look at DiMaggio's son!) Mills' system may have been great and took the kid farther than he otherwise would have gone, or it could have ruined the next Roger Clemens. Who's to say?

[wogdoggy]

not saying mills system sucks,he has some good stuff in that 3 hr video if you can stay awake...he CERTAINLY isnt the only guru in the game..I will continue to long toss with my kids,because I KNOW it had alot to do with building arm strength.I would throw 16 inch waterlogged softballs as far as I could or footballs.Tom house's stuff is pretty good.

[XFactor]

Go ahead and use weighted balls... you'll just destroy your arm.. I could care less if you don't want to listen to me.

"Here's where we disagree. My sources -- for example Bob Cluck, pitching coach of the Tigers, and Rick Ellis of TheCompletePitcher.com ("It’s here – after the front foot is firmly planted – that a pitcher finally rotates his trunk all the way through.") that say you open the hips after the foot strikes. In fact, the trunk in a way pivots around the front leg to give the snap. That's what I mean by keeping the front side closed. Do you have some coaching sources that advise to the contrary? (I'm not trying to be a wisea$s; I'm open to the best learning out there.)"

Yes but rotation starts as soon as the foot touches the ground. It's hard to show you what I mean on here. But I'll try. You know your striding out, closed, at the last possible second you open up your hips and your foot lands, but your trunk will still be rotating through and over your braced front leg. What I was saying is that you can't gain any more velocity once the foot lands. Everything up until the foot plants is as much velocity your going to get, you'll then transfer it up and through your trunk which will deliver your arm like a whip.

Hope that answers your questions

[wogdoggy]

Go ahead and use weighted balls... you'll just destroy your arm.. I could care less if you don't want to listen to me.


what is the MAGIC weight? gee if i'm a baseball player I should nevere ever pick up a football cause that weighs more than a baseball and i may hurt my arm....god forbid I throw a 16 inch clincher around i'll blow out my baseball arm,,,hey i better think twice about bowling.

[jgiles]

www.baseballideas.blogspot.com

[XFactor]

Go ahead and use weighted balls... you'll just destroy your arm.. I could care less if you don't want to listen to me.


what is the MAGIC weight? gee if i'm a baseball player I should nevere ever pick up a football cause that weighs more than a baseball and i may hurt my arm....god forbid I throw a 16 inch clincher around i'll blow out my baseball arm,,,hey i better think twice about bowling.

I'm not saying your going to pop something just because you throw a 10 oz baseball. What I'm saying is that you will throw off the nerves in your arm (I don't know the correct terminology) when you throw a 10 oz ball, then try and throw a 5 oz ball... it will screw up your mechanics and WILL INCREASE the chance, the chance of getting injured. Can you throw weighted balls and not get injured? Yes... but your chances of injury is much greater.

[wogdoggy]

This study may prove benificial to some in regards to the value of weighted baseballs in developing arm strength. The University of Hawaii did a study that involved 45 highschool pitchers and 180 university pitchers. Three workouts a week over a 10 week period were used. The specifics minus distance were used. The control group used only a standard 5oz ball. The second group used a standard 5oz and heavy 6oz ball for five weeks and then used a standard 5oz and light 4oz ball for te second five weeks. The third group trained with a standard, heavy and light ball simultaneously through the 10 week period.
Each workout consisted of 66 pitches. The control using only standard balls. The second group threw 11 standard, 44 heavy, 11 standard the first five weeks and then 11 standard, 44 light, 11 standard. The third group threw 11 standard, 22 heavy, 22 light, 11 standard. At the end of the 10 week session the first group showed no improvement in velocity while both the second and third groups showed 6 to 8 percent increases in velocity.
It was also noted that while throwing heavier balls only,the result was an increase in strength but a draw back was the fine tuning of the nervous system to coordinate a strong but slow movement.
By incorporating the light weight balls the quicker than usual arm movement taught the players nervous systems to recruit muscular activity very quickly. The concept behind throwing heavy first and then light is based on developing shoulder strength before moving into the quicker than usual phase of the arms motion.




:dance :waving :gt

[XFactor]

You guys gotta remember the added weight of a weighted ball is not enough resistance to provide any physiological benefit since the pitching arm is dependent on stored elastic energy from pre-stretch of all the connective tissue and fast trunk rotation....not contractile forces of the arm muscles. Weighted balls won't work... I'm sorry to dissapoint you :(

[wogdoggy]

don't worry you won't disappoint me.lol.the beautiful thing about baseball is it takes all types.just like people.there are those who will open their minds and look at other ways ,techniques, etc and there are those who won't.Obviously there are people set in their own ways as well.I'd bet some even still teach linear mechanics? :laugh .Are weighted balls a cure all or recipe for speed? Not for some but definately can help others.


theathleticpitcher.com.

many PROS use weighted balls.
many pros use weights as well
many people use overload and underloading training

[XFactor]

And how many pros could be better if they stopped doing stupid things like weighted baseballs. Now the pros that do use weighted baseballs usually use them just to toss around for a minute before they go and actually use a baseball to throw around. They don't throw them off the mound, and if they do.. they are stupid.

You know some of the pros DON'T have the best mechanics, there are flaws that Mark Prior and Kerry Woods could correct to make their arm problems go away, but they don't know what they are.

Just because they are pro doesn't mean they know everything

[Ravenlord]

1. before surgery, i could max out at 93 MPH. however, i could barely hit a cut-off man when in left field. reason being that the mechanics between me pitching, and me throwing are radically different...mainly, i have no rubber to push off of.

2. weighted ball training is mostly counter productive. you'll grow stronger, but you change release point and arm speed with it. it's not an issue of strength here, it's an issue of muscle memory. it's a primitive form of neuro-programming. kind of like Pavlovian Conditioning.

3. the three most important things for velocity are mechanics, leg strength, and core strength. actual arm strength is nearly irrelavent. Don Gullett's one success was taking Pet Schourk (sp) and taking his fastball from 88 MPH, to 96 MPH with a slight mechanical change in his mid-section.

[wogdoggy]

Just because they are pro doesn't mean they know everything




OF COURSE THATS WHY WE HAVE YOU HERE....:D

[chisox2k5]

2. weighted ball training is mostly counter productive. you'll grow stronger, but you change release point and arm speed with it. it's not an issue of strength here, it's an issue of muscle memory. it's a primitive form of neuro-programming. kind of like Pavlovian Conditioning.


To your first point I was wondering when did you push off the rubber... I mean like when your front leg was descending or when? Do you mean making a conscious effort to do so?

Do you mean what most people think weighted ball training is, just throwing around a 8 oz ball instead of a 5 oz.

Because weighted ball programs are designed a specific way that most people don't follow, mostly throwing them into a net 10 feet away when location is irrelevant... you dont play catch with them, you dont throw offspeed, you dont throw hard etc etc.

Yeah throwing the heavier ball will slow your arm down but thats what the under weight ball is for (name 'over/under' training). Power = speed x strength, weighted ball training works both aspects of it.

I disagree to a certain extent on your 3rd point when you say that arm strength is nearly irrelevant. I've seen guys who can rip the out of the ball against high school hitters who can't even see the ball, and some of these guys had what you would call bad mechanics

[Bob Sacamento]

And how many pros could be better if they stopped doing stupid things like weighted baseballs. Now the pros that do use weighted baseballs usually use them just to toss around for a minute before they go and actually use a baseball to throw around. They don't throw them off the mound, and if they do.. they are stupid.

You know some of the pros DON'T have the best mechanics, there are flaws that Mark Prior and Kerry Woods could correct to make their arm problems go away, but they don't know what they are.

Just because they are pro doesn't mean they know everything
One's mechanics can definately increase your velocity, but as important as mechanics is, locating your pitches, hiding the ball and not tipping your pitches is up there as well as becoming a good pitcher.

Personally I wouldn't recommend using a weighted ball, but that's just me. Try videotaping your delivery and finding your motion flaws, do the shoulder muscle drills and stretches. If you can afford it find a good personal pitching coach, personally I had Roger Erickson (who blew his arm out at an early age due to overthrowing).

As for Prior and Wood, their motions are like day and night. Prior has flawless mechanics while Wood has one of the ugliest.

[Ravenlord]

To your first point I was wondering when did you push off the rubber... I mean like when your front leg was descending or when?when my front leg is at the apex of the lift, i start to bend my back leg at the knee to not quite a 90 degree angle. at that point i start to bring my front leg down towards the plate, and push off with the back leg (kind of like throwing a punch correctly). not sure how it'll work for you cause i'm lefthanded.

Do you mean making a conscious effort to do so?very conscious. otherwise it's my normal throwing motion...which if i do that through a windup, my muscles pop in my rib cage.

Do you mean what most people think weighted ball training is, just throwing around a 8 oz ball instead of a 5 oz.no. it's the program my high school used is the one that Astro's strengh and conditioning coach Gene Coleman set forth in his book (52 Week Baseball Training). the program is pretty much identical to how you described, but myself and a couple others couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with anything other than a four seamer after a couple weeks of it, so we scrapped it.

I disagree to a certain extent on your 3rd point when you say that arm strength is nearly irrelevant. I've seen guys who can rip the out of the ball against high school hitters who can't even see the ball, and some of these guys had what you would call bad mechanics
they have arm speed. you could take Michael Clark Duncan and he's probably going to top at 80. then you take all 170ish pounds of 6'2" Reds prospect Elizardo Ramirez, and he's up around 90. arm speed is the important part. not neccessarily strength.

Ty Howington was the Reds first round draft pick in 99. horrid mechanics, could thorw 98 MPH (in high school). but three shoulder surgeries later, he retired at the end of the year. just because you can throw hard doesn't always mean you should. this is a matter of opinion, but as far as i'm concerned,avoiding the injury is more important than effectiveness. you have to find the balance.

also, if you're wanting to get stronger (and you should be if you want success in the game), use static contraction. it's so radically better at developing slow and fast twitch musce fiber it's almost comical.

[XFactor]

What exactely is static contraction?

And for the person that pushes off the rubber, just make sure you lead with your front hip, otherwise your doing what people call rushing.

[Ravenlord]

static contraction is where you have the muscle contracted at a static weight. in other words, it's the progressive overload of a muscle within your strongest range of motion.

[MLB Bound 2008]

ok, ive just been browsing some of these posts off another link to this thread, some of you are foolish....long toss is for the simplest reason having to do with pitching has to do with stretching your arm out, and getting rid of all the bad stuff in your arm after you pitch, thats it! no velocity improvement, you get that by pitching and running and weight lifting, not long toss............and as for weighted balls.........they dont ruin your arm if you dont throw off your arm when you use them...

[Jake Patterson]

Mechanics are for chumps, just throw the ball.....

You'll have a very short career if you really feel this way....

[Chris O'Leary]

Pick up the latest issue of collegiate baseball (the cover story is umpires being background checked). Look through the magazine and look for the article at how 300ft long toss relates to 90mph velocity.

Cant wait to hear responses, maybe hearing it from an expert will set you guys straight...

The problem is that pitchers throwing from a mound and anyone throwing long toss in the outfield can (and do) use two completely different sets of mechanics.

For one thing, outfielders can use the crow hop rhythm which allows them to convert rapid forward motion (e.g. running) into additional velocity.

[Ohfor]

The problem is that pitchers throwing from a mound and anyone throwing long toss in the outfield can (and do) use two completely different sets of mechanics.

For one thing, outfielders can use the crow hop rhythm which allows them to convert rapid forward motion (e.g. running) into additional velocity.

Warning....genius at work.

[MLB Bound 2008]

i know chris from letstalkpitching and it seems that he does know what hes talking about most times, and his injury prevention techniques do make sense, so dont be so quick to judge someone, hes just trying to be helpful

[Chris O'Leary]

Warning....genius at work.

Exactly what's wrong with this statement?

[MLB Bound 2008]

i jus find it a little negative

[Williamsburg2599]

I only play long toss because it's cool to see girls walk by and go. "Oh my god! They're throwing so far! They're so good!"
Chicks dig the longball:laugh

[johnad89]

Everything mentioned in that artcle is 100% fact. If you ask any physicist he will tell you that the velocity of an objet and the distance it travels are directly related. I can not emphasize that point enough.

There are many reasons why some pitchers can throw a ball 300 feet but cant translate that distance into mph on the mound.

a) 9 times out of 10 the pitcher long tossing takes a running start with a crow hop before throwing. Obviously he can't do this on the mound which gives him a clear disadvantage when converting the distance long tossing into mph. Here's a suggestion, try to give yourself as little running momentum as you can as if simulating actually being on the pitching mound. Than you can compare 300 feet long tossing to 90 mph.

b) Not every pitcher throws with perfect backspin. Consider a side armer for example; his ball has a tendency to sink or fade roughly 6 inches while pitching on the rubber. Imagine how signficantly his pitches will fade when dramatically increasing the distance. Make sure you throw with perfect back spin if you want to compare the distance you throw and your speed.

c) The wind factor also plays a greator role than is givin credit. It can either significantly carry or impede your throw. A ten mile per hour wind for example may not seem noticable but when you throw a ball a total distance of 300 feet it makes a HUGE difference. The lengthend distance and time in the air allows for the wind to influence the speed of the ball even greator than it nomally would when pitching on the mound. The wind factor makes it more difficult to accurately translate distance into mph.

The next time a pitcher throwing 85 mph complains about being able to throw 320 feet, simply suggest that he doesnt sprint for 10 yards before throwing. There is no doubt running momentum makes a difference on velocity. Why do you think Javelin throwers sprint before they throw? It makes them throw faster. Also tell him not to throw a two seam when he throws. He might as well throw a curveball before complaining about how the 90mph/300ft ratio is off. Finally make sure he throws with very littl wind if any.

[Baseball gLove]

Pick up the latest issue of collegiate baseball (the cover story is umpires being background checked). Look through the magazine and look for the article at how 300ft long toss relates to 90mph velocity.

Cant wait to hear responses, maybe hearing it from an expert will set you guys straight...

That 300 foot throw being equal to 90 mph is not a regular long toss, but a 300 foot throw made on a line. My son can throw over 320 feet, but only 220-230 feet on a line.

[Maxx]

Dick Mills doesn't know what he doesn't know when it comes to training......

[beisbolcrazy22]

I never thought it was a display of distance but how fast it covered that distance.
In the japanese baseball programs they all long toss and they have amazing arms in the outfield.

[Shake Zula]

I never thought it was a display of distance but how fast it covered that distance.
In the japanese baseball programs they all long toss and they have amazing arms in the outfield.

Yeah, look at Ichiro, seriously. Well he did use to be a pitcher before he was involved in an accident though

[korp]

Ok I'm not going to read your post because its very long and not worth my time. Throwing 90 is about creating torque just like in hitting the quicker your bat is the more power you have. Now I know people who throw 90s and high 80s and yes they can throw long distances with some ease .... but for those who don't maybe their bodies just physically won't allow them to throw 90s? hmm still gonna go with the genetics on this issue because hard work can only get you so far there still has to be the natural ability.

[Infinite]

I never thought it was a display of distance but how fast it covered that distance.
In the japanese baseball programs they all long toss and they have amazing arms in the outfield.
you have no idea how fanatical they are about long toss. but most of the players can throw long distances on a line with ease. this is a recreational competitive league.
we start camp in february i may video tape our practices if i ever remember my recorder.

[Go Cardinals]

I asked my physics teacher this one and she said that distance would directly relate to velocity.

[Robbie_L]

The amount of backspin on the ball also has a lot to do with it.

[brettthejet7]

I just wanted to say that as a coach I have been using Ron Wolforth's programs the last two years (long-toss, med-balls, weighted balls) and I have had 8 players throw over 90 that never had previously. One player went from 82 to 94 over a two year period and another went from 86 to 96. It also works for softer throwers as I had a kid go from 68 to 82 in one year.

[wogdoggy]

I just wanted to say that as a coach I have been using Ron Wolforth's programs the last two years (long-toss, med-balls, weighted balls) and I have had 8 players throw over 90 that never had previously. One player went from 82 to 94 over a two year period and another went from 86 to 96. It also works for softer throwers as I had a kid go from 68 to 82 in one year.

I have rons program as well on video if anyones interested let me know..There has been alot of controversey about rons program on this board,,its really hard to dispute the success he has had ,especially with kids that arent 6 foot 4 230..:twocents:

[gwynnfan]

http://www.baseball-articles.com/longtoss.html

[fastbal95]

I hope no one here thinks that I do not like long toss, because I do. I think its a great thing, its fun to do.

My question is though, how do we know that long toss is directly relating to increases in velocity? The guys who were in that article talked about long toss, but did their velocity go up after doing a long toss program, and was that the only thing they did?

As far as I know, Ron Wolforth only works with high school aged kids or younger, is that correct? If it is, then how do we know that his program is the contributing factor that is relating to increases in velocity? Im not saying it isnt, but just how do we know? How do we know that its just not the growth and development of the kids, getting older, bigger, and stronger.

I guess what Im trying to get at is where is the control in all of these "experiments"? How do we know?

Thanks

[Baseball gLove]

Wow, there is Rudy Seanez using the word "Stretch."

[wogdoggy]

I hope no one here thinks that I do not like long toss, because I do. I think its a great thing, its fun to do.

My question is though, how do we know that long toss is directly relating to increases in velocity? The guys who were in that article talked about long toss, but did their velocity go up after doing a long toss program, and was that the only thing they did?

As far as I know, Ron Wolforth only works with high school aged kids or younger, is that correct? If it is, then how do we know that his program is the contributing factor that is relating to increases in velocity? Im not saying it isnt, but just how do we know? How do we know that its just not the growth and development of the kids, getting older, bigger, and stronger.

I guess what Im trying to get at is where is the control in all of these "experiments"? How do we know?

Thanks

You never really know BUT look at ALL the kids he has that throw 92 ..its very unusual to have that many averaged sized kids throwing a ball that hard..so ya gotta think something in there is working?:lightbulb:

[fastbal95]

I can understand where you are coming from, BUT, what do you mean by averaged size kids?

There are plenty of guys who are small in comparison by most ML pitchers or a "prototypical" pitcher, yet throw very hard.

I saw a guy from the Dominican, who was in the Yankees organization, was with the Staten Island Yankees at the time, who was about 5'7" 150 lbs pumpin 96. This was in 2004.

[caseyd123]

i know this is an old thread but something really bothers me about the anti-longtoss guys points. it seems like they are saying that kids rely on long tossing and that they NEVER pitch off the mound.

i dont think Jaeger or ANYONE would suggest just doing a long toss program and then going to see how you fare on the mound in a game. No, I see Jaeger and others programs as being a great way to get the arm ready for work. Long toss, then if you are a pitcher do a bullpen session. or if youre an infielder, take groundballs and work on your throws to first. or if youre an outfielder, take flyballs and work on hitting the cut.

i mean hell, i agree with the anti-longtoss guys that longtoss alone won't help a pitcher...duh

i just dont see why they think that because someone's doing longtoss that they NEVER bullpen/throw off a mound. can't the 2 work hand in hand?

this is confusing and a foolish argument that bothers me because I'm just a young ballplayer looking to do things the right way and all this does is set up a road block. am i making sense with this posT?

[Shake Zula]

I can understand where you are coming from, BUT, what do you mean by averaged size kids?

There are plenty of guys who are small in comparison by most ML pitchers or a "prototypical" pitcher, yet throw very hard.

I saw a guy from the Dominican, who was in the Yankees organization, was with the Staten Island Yankees at the time, who was about 5'7" 150 lbs pumpin 96. This was in 2004.
Out of curiosity, do you remember his name or... just a little bit of his name?

[caseyd123]

Out of curiosity, do you remember his name or... just a little bit of his name?



I'm a yankee fan and can almost guarantee he's talking about K-Ram...Edwar Ramirez

[StraightGrain11]

And how many pros could be better if they stopped doing stupid things like weighted baseballs. Now the pros that do use weighted baseballs usually use them just to toss around for a minute before they go and actually use a baseball to throw around. They don't throw them off the mound, and if they do.. they are stupid.
Sorry to chime in late, here, but statements like these really prove some people's ignorance (and arrogance).

They have multi-million dollar jobs (for a reason). They work in multi-million dollar facilities - the best of there kind (for a reason). They have MORE ACCESS to "the best" of everything ON A DAILY BASIS than 99.9% of "us" will EVER have - maybe they don't always have THE best, but they have the majority of the top 1% (it's actually probably less than that, even). The amount of knowledge and EXPERIENCE circulating at THAT level of the game is 2nd to none.

If, you are so knowledgable as to what could make them better, why are they not contacting you?


You know some of the pros DON'T have the best mechanics, there are flaws that Mark Prior and Kerry Woods could correct to make their arm problems go away, but they don't know what they are.

But you do? If you do, I am sure they would LOVE (more than ANYTHING) for you to inform them of it so that they may get their careers back underway and get back to All-Star caliber.


Just because they are pro doesn't mean they know everything

You're right, it doesn't. It just means they're better at what they do than everyone else.


Now the pros that do use weighted baseballs usually use them just to toss around for a minute before they go and actually use a baseball to throw around. They don't throw them off the mound, and if they do.. they are stupid.
....................
I'm not saying your going to pop something just because you throw a 10 oz baseball. What I'm saying is that you will throw off the nerves in your arm (I don't know the correct terminology) when you throw a 10 oz ball, then try and throw a 5 oz ball... it will screw up your mechanics and WILL INCREASE the chance, the chance of getting injured. Can you throw weighted balls and not get injured? Yes... but your chances of injury is much greater.

Have you ever seen a "wieghted-ball program"? I have. NOWHERE at ALL in it, does it EVER say ANYTHING about throwing a 10 oz ball and then going directly to throwing a 5 oz ball. You work you way up, and then you work your way back down. You are also specifically directed to never even "play catch" with a ball over 7 oz - let alone "throw off the mound" with one.

Training harder, and more intensely, to compete, and maintain your ability to compete, at the next level (whatever it may be) increases your chance of injury as much as it helps reduce it. Doing excercises, drills, or programs INCORRECTLY increases your chance of injury. Doing excercises, drills, or programs that are not "suitable for you" will increase your chance of injury. Using a weighted-ball [program], as a baseball player, CORRECTLY, will not increase your chance of injury anymore than swimming with hand-paddles, as a swimmer, will (yes, I swam competitively for 15 yrs).

As for warming-up with one, Mariano Rivera uses (NOT throws) a SHOT PUT to get his arm loose before ever throwing a single a ball when he gets ready to come into close. Now, I'm not saying he's right, or doing the best thing for his arm, but I do know he is considered by MANY to be the greatest closer of his time (if not ALL-time) - and he's been doing it CONSISTENTLY for many years. Any "arm problems"? Doesn't sound like someone I would want to emulate or who's footsteps I would like to follow in anytime soon...:rolleyes:

You may have good information. Dick may have given you insight to things that have helped you greatly. But "check yourself" before you go and start "knocking" the best.

[Shake Zula]

I'm a yankee fan and can almost guarantee he's talking about K-Ram...Edwar Ramirez
Edwar Ramirez wasn't in Yankee farm system in 2004... I don't think he throws 96mph either