Who are the very best 5-tool players of 2005?

[Mattingly]

The 5 tools are:

1. Hit for power
2. Hit for average
3. Can steal bases
4. Can play defense well
5. Has a strong arm

They're the total players in baseball who aren't just DH types of sluggers with no glove, or slick-fielding, no-hit types. They can do everything and do it all. If they've got good overall baserunning skills, in addition to the thefts, that's definitely a bonus.

So far, I'm thinking Vladimir Guerrero and Alex Rodriguez. Any others?

Thx. :)

[Perseas]

Jeff Francoer

[Imapotato]

Vlad Guerrero and Albert Pujos

Alex? C'mon Mattingly!!!

He is not the best baserunner (I bet 90% of his steals are those what do you call it defensive something or other), not as good defensively as he is touted and his normal BA is just above .300 and is going down

He can hit for power at an above average rate of contact, and doesn't walk 120 plus times, which I like, but he K's 125 plus...which isn't as good as Pujos and his less then 70

[Mattingly]

Okay then, he has 4 tools. (SHEESH) :p

*Meets Mr Taterhead by the elevator and bonks him upside the noggin once* :D :gt

[Imapotato]

You and your Yankee bias :P


See, I didn't mention Abreu...who many tout as 5 tool

I am sure Mr. Abreu has all 5 tools, he just doesn't care to use 3 of them

[SoxSon]

You and your Yankee bias :P


See, I didn't mention Abreu...who many tout as 5 tool

I am sure Mr. Abreu has all 5 tools, he just doesn't care to use 3 of them

Speaking of the Phillies, though, what about Chase Utley? He seeme to have all 5 of these tools (though I can't watch him enough to speak on the strength of his arm, I guess).

[RuthMayBond]

I don't know about these guys' defense & arm, but what do you think of

Brian Roberts
Grady Sizemore
Alfonso Soriano
Jason Bay
Derrek Lee
David Wright

[SoxSon]

Also, how about Carl Crawford? Morgan Ensberg (not a lot of basestealing, but a little)?

[Mattingly]

Speaking of Derrek Lee:

Albert Pujols

Both 1Bman have excellent defense in the glove. I'm not sure about their arm, but other than the occasional 3-6-3 or throwing home on a squeeze, I'm not sure that a 1Bman needs a gun. Also not a position where one needs acrobatics to play, unlike SS, 2B, 3B.

[SoxSon]

Jeff Francoer

Francoeur has only stolen one base this season.

[Zito75]

Jeff Francoer

I like him a lot- But can he steal?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Francoeur has only stolen one base this season.

Has he drawn a walk yet?

[darkplague17]

Yeah, it was an IBB...

Alex? C'mon Mattingly!!!

He is not the best baserunner (I bet 90% of his steals are those what do you call it defensive something or other), not as good defensively as he is touted and his normal BA is just above .300 and is going down

He can hit for power at an above average rate of contact, and doesn't walk 120 plus times, which I like, but he K's 125 plus...which isn't as good as Pujos and his less then 70

You must be kidding. I had to read your post twice to make sure you weren't. A-rod is the ultimate 5 tool player. Which member of the 40-40 club didn't take steroids? Right now, he's 319/418/602 (is .319 ba above average enough for you??) And remember, his natural position is a SS, where he's great defensively. A good defensive 1b (Pujols) is meaningless; the difference between the best 1b and worst 1b in the league is maybe 4 runs a year (I laugh out loud when people say Pujols is great defensively, because he's playing FIRST BASE, which is just a joke) For SS, it's maybe 40 runs a year. And A-rod's arm is an absolute gun... Remember, he just moved to 3b, and he's been playing the position fantastic the past few months. And the K's don't matter. It really doesn't matter how you make the outs, it matters how many outs you make.

Keep this in mind. At the age of 30, A-rod has more hits than Rose did, mroe homers than Aaron did, and more stolen bases than Henderson did. Let's see Pujols try play any other defensive position besides 1B, or steal 40 bases in a year. When was the last time a shortstop or 3b could be considered the best offensive player in the game?? Honus Wagner, 100 years ago, maybe?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Yeah, it was an IBB...



You must be kidding. I had to read your post twice to make sure you weren't. A-rod is the ultimate 5 tool player. Which member of the 40-40 club didn't take steroids? Right now, he's 319/418/602 (is .319 ba above average enough for you??) And remember, his natural position is a SS, where he's great defensively. A good defensive 1b (Pujols) is meaningless; the difference between the best 1b and worst 1b in the league is maybe 4 runs a year (I laugh out loud when people say Pujols is great defensively, because he's playing FIRST BASE, which is just a joke) For SS, it's maybe 40 runs a year. And A-rod's arm is an absolute gun... Remember, he just moved to 3b, and he's been playing the position fantastic the past few months. And the K's don't matter. It really doesn't matter how you make the outs, it matters how many outs you make.

Keep this in mind. At the age of 30, A-rod has more hits than Rose did, mroe homers than Aaron did, and more stolen bases than Henderson did. Let's see Pujols try play any other defensive position besides 1B, or steal 40 bases in a year. When was the last time a shortstop or 3b could be considered the best offensive player in the game?? Honus Wagner, 100 years ago, maybe?

I think you mean runs scored and not stolen bases, right? Through age 30 Rickey had 871 SB. As of today A-Rod a "little" less than 871 SBs. :laugh He has 217, or 654 less than Rickey.

Through age 30 Rickey had 1171 runs and A-Rod already has 1210 runs as of today. Wow. A-Rod can potentially break the all-time record is HRs, RBI, runs, total bases, and perhaps the doubles record.

[RuthMayBond]

When was the last time a shortstop or 3b could be considered the best offensive player in the game?? Honus Wagner, 100 years ago, maybe?Caminiti in 1996 :D

[rockin500]

francouer just walked unintentionally for the first time this afternoon. of course, prior hasnt had much control today, so i guess i shouldnt be shocked. :rolleyes:

[laxplayer81217]

David Wright has power, average, good mobility, great defense, and a decent arm, so my vote is for him

[Astro]

A good defensive 1b (Pujols) is meaningless

Really?

You can have fun playing Frank Thomas at 1b

[SoxSon]

Really?

You can have fun playing Frank Thomas at 1b


Good point, Astro.
The Sox feel the difference between Millar at first and Olerud, that's for sure.

[SoxSon]

You must be kidding. I had to read your post twice to make sure you weren't. A-rod is the ultimate 5 tool player.


I agree, darkplague17...like Mattingly, the first two that came to my mind were Guerrero and ARod.

[Astro]

Bobby Abreu is the best in my mind

With A-Rod and Vlady coming in at #2 and #3, they just dont steal enough bases to be considered the best in my mind

[cklennon]

Francoeur can steal and has a few times (once? a few? don't really know off the top of my head) but the reason he hasn't gotten more steals is mostly due to the fact that he usually hits low in the Braves lineup and therefore the guys behind him are hardly "RBI" guys so stealing a 5,6 or 7-spot hitter is usually a pretty aggressive move, and Bobby Cox is usually pretty conservative when it comes to baserunning unless we're talking about Furcal...

He is a great 5-tool player IMO. He has great speed and eventually that will translate into SB in my opinion but you can see his speed in the many times he's advanced from 1st to 3rd on outfield singles, 1st to Home on gappers, etc. He's a very quick player.

[Francoeurstein]

Carlos Beltran DUH!!!!

[SoxSon]

Carlos Beltran DUH!!!!


You can't call .267 at this point in the season "hitting for average." Last year was even worse, I think (without looking it up).

[SoxSon]

Bobby Abreu is the best in my mind

With A-Rod and Vlady coming in at #2 and #3, they just dont steal enough bases to be considered the best in my mind

You know, you might be right. Abreu has never gotten the respect he deserves, that's for sure.

[Astro]

Francoeur can steal and has a few times (once? a few? don't really know off the top of my head) but the reason he hasn't gotten more steals is mostly due to the fact that he usually hits low in the Braves lineup and therefore the guys behind him are hardly "RBI" guys so stealing a 5,6 or 7-spot hitter is usually a pretty aggressive move, and Bobby Cox is usually pretty conservative when it comes to baserunning unless we're talking about Furcal...

He is a great 5-tool player IMO. He has great speed and eventually that will translate into SB in my opinion but you can see his speed in the many times he's advanced from 1st to 3rd on outfield singles, 1st to Home on gappers, etc. He's a very quick player.

BIAS ALERT! BIAS ALERT!

Francoeur has been in the majors a month or so and your saying he is one of the best 5-tool players in the majors?

Your logic for why he doesn't steal is also lacking, there would be MORE reason to attempt to steal 2nd if players who dont rack up many RBIs are behind him, for the simple fact of trying to manufacture runs

Which would you do:
Attempt to steal 2nd with the 7th hitter at bat, so if he singles he can maybe score from 2nd

Or

Attempt to steal 2nd with the #3 hitter up, the heart of the lineup, where chances are they'll be able to move him over ATLEAST, if not drive him in from 1st

Since 2002 Francouer has stolen no more than 14 bases in one season (2003 he was 14 of 20)

Not to mention the odds of him keeping his average above .320 or so are slim, since he goes up there hacking at everything... (he had a total of 67 walks in 1081 minor league atbats coming into this season)

I'm not sure of his arm, if it is good or not, his defense is solid but he doesnt steal enough bases to be considered a 5-tool player, and I doubt he'll hit better than .310 or .320 routinely in the majors

[Francoeurstein]

A couple years ago he batted lead-off with 7- steals and a 310. or somethign like that average. That what I call the 5 tools.

[darkplague17]

Really?

You can have fun playing Frank Thomas at 1b

It is, because the best defensive 1b in the league compared to the worse will save you less than 5 runs the entire year, which is nothing. I would put Pujols as a 3 tool player. I don't think he has a good arm, but even if he does it's not important, because he's playing first base. Let's see how versatile Pujols really is and move him to SS or 3B... Any player, even David Ortiz, can make a good 1B. Even Frank Thomas, if he worked on it, but he doesn't, because he can DH.

Yeah, you're right Honus Wagner, I do mean runs scored, not stolen bases. Sorry for that mistake. I wonder if A-rod can join Bonds in the 500-500 club.

Good point, Astro.
The Sox feel the difference between Millar at first and Olerud, that's for sure.

That move was also made on a large part due to Millar's offense (or lack thereof). If he was still being great offensively, they wouldn't have cared about his defense. Once again, I'm going to reiterate that the runs saved from defense on 1B are minimal compared to the runs gained on offense by a 1B.

I was just shocked that someone would think A-rod is not a 5 tool player (in history, he may be the best 5 tool player ever) but Pujols or Lee is...

[Francoeurstein]

My Bad 70 stolen bases :grouchy

[SoxSon]

That move was also made on a large part due to Millar's offense (or lack thereof). If he was still being great offensively, they wouldn't have cared about his defense.

Millar has always been a streaky hitter, so I disagree. Last season, we put Doug M. at first for defensive help, particularly late in games; this year, we put in Olerud. Olerud has been getting more and more playing time because he has shown both hitting and defense, but we initially brought him on board for a defensive replacement at 1st more than anything else. That's why the bulk of his playing time originally came late in games, relieving Millar.



Once again, I'm going to reiterate that the runs saved from defense on 1B are minimal compared to the runs gained on offense by a 1B.


Well, it's a theory, and definitely one I've heard several times before. Clearly, 1st isn't the "premier" defensive position. The debate is easily settled, I guess, by getting a guy who can hit and field. :D

[Honus Wagner Rules]

When was the last time a shortstop or 3b could be considered the best offensive player in the game?? Honus Wagner, 100 years ago, maybe?

Michael Jack Schmidt...

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I was just shocked that someone would think A-rod is not a 5 tool player (in history, he may be the best 5 tool player ever) but Pujols or Lee is...

The best 5-tool player ever? :eek: Where's Bill Burgess to defend Ty Cobb!!! :D

[The Splendid Splinter]

The best 5-tool player ever? :eek: Where's Bill Burgess to defend Ty Cobb!!! :D


haha that's good. I could include a couple player that were better overall (5 tools) over A Rod right now... Cobb, Mays, Wagner, even Bonds (without his last 4 years) come in mind. But when it is all said and done for A Rod and his career, he has the potential to be the best overall player ever.

[Reed Johnson]

and more stolen bases than Henderson did.

This guy sure knows his stuff! :clapping

[Astro]

A couple years ago he batted lead-off with 7- steals and a 310. or somethign like that average. That what I call the 5 tools.

Who are you talking about?

[flash143817]

I don't know about these guys' defense & arm, but what do you think of

Brian Roberts
Grady Sizemore
Alfonso Soriano
Jason Bay
Derrek Lee
David Wright

Roberts is a 2B, so I doubt he has the arm, and his power is a fluke this year. Sizemore is a poor man's 5 tool guy, as his power is average. Soriano is a horrible defender. I can't speak for Bay's defensive ability, but his other numbers are good 5 tool (14 for 14 steals!). Lee is outstanding offensively this year, but I find it hard to give him arm points playing 1B. I'd call him a 4 tool guy. And I only know about Wright's offensive skills, which are very good.

[flash143817]

haha that's good. I could include a couple player that were better overall (5 tools) over A Rod right now... Cobb, Mays, Wagner, even Bonds (without his last 4 years) come in mind. But when it is all said and done for A Rod and his career, he has the potential to be the best overall player ever.

Bonds has got to be the best 5 tool guy ever. Although Babe Ruth could be considered - average, power, arm, defense (considered outstanding at positioning himself), and pitching. It isn't the traditional 5 tools, but he has 5 outstanding tools.

[RuthMayBond]

Roberts is a 2B, so I doubt he has the arm, and his power is a fluke this year.How's he gonna take the flip from the SS and throw to 1st? And the thread is talking about THIS year.

<Soriano is a horrible defender.>

Until THIS year

[darkplague17]

This guy sure knows his stuff!

Once again dude, it was a mistake. So A-rod's just better than all the other all-time leaders at age 30 in HRs, rbi, hits, and runs scored.

Bonds has got to be the best 5 tool guy ever.

He could be, but how good is his arm?

To avoid further controversy, here's my point: to say Pujols or Lee is a 5 tool player (which is a joke, because they're first basemen) and A-rod is not, is itself a joke

And about Mike Schmidt and Ken Caminit, I wasn't alive during Mike's prime, so I don't know who was the best at his time. But about Ken, Bonds was always the better player offensively.

[leecemark]

--Schmidt lead the league in OPS+ 6 times in 7 years between 1980 and 86. Safe to say he was the best hitter around. That type of dominance is Cobb and Ruth material, although they did it a little longer and separated a little more.

[The Big C]

Firstly, its called Defensive Indifference for the guy who was drawing a blank. To my knowledge bases taken via Defensive Indifference are not credited to a player's steals total, so all of A-Rod's steals are indeed actually steals.

As for Pujols, his natural position is not 1B, it is 3B. I don't know how good he is over there, but that's where they had him before they got Rolen. (somebody might do well to check this for sure, but I am nearly positive). Also, he played LF a year or two ago, atleast for part of the season. But I would say he has 4 tools at best, and 3 at worst because I am unsure about the quality of his arm, and I don't consider him to be very fast.

[darkplague17]

They had to move him over because of injuries to his elbow. I doubt Pujols could make a good 3B or LF, let alone a good SS. And his throwing arm isn't that strong. But he does have a much more important tool than throwing arm or defense - walking.

[The Big C]

In most cases I would hardly consider walking a tool, let alone a more important tool than defense. But in Pujols' case I guess I am inclined to agree with you.

[rainout]

Pujols is great but he is downright slow and his defense doesn't really impress me. I can't find fault with it, it's just ordinary firstbasemanship. That's not why he's famous.

[flash143817]

I personally consider walking to be a tool, and an extremely valuable one. A good hitter should be swinging at good pitches and making the pitcher pay if he can't throw them. I usually look for "6 tool guys" because most 5 tool guys don't walk much. So I think Bonds might be the only 6 tool player in MLB history. Maybe Mickey Mantle the other, although his tools deteriorated more quickly.

[nolanryan5714]

Anyone who thinks it is Carlos Beltran has been listening to the media WAY too much...for about 10 months now. :crazy

[laxplayer81217]

david wright word

[STLCards2]

Let's see Pujols try play any other defensive position besides 1B,

I did actually. In fact he played a pretty good 3rd base for two seasons, and an average LF for one season. He wasn't great, but he didn't hurt the team at 3rd or Left either. In case you didn't notice, Pujols has made the All-Star game at 3 different position in only five seasons.


I wouldn't call Pujols a 5-tool player either, but who cares. I would take a guy who is great at any 3 of the tools than somebody who is just good at 5. I know Pujols is no David Wright or anything. :D

I wouldn't call Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, or Stan Musial 5-tool players.

[rsuriyop]

No love for Miguel Tejada?

[Mattingly]

No love for Miguel Tejada?
Sounds like a solid name. State your case as to why he's about the best. Not doubting him one bit. Just want to hear it in your own words. :)

[rsuriyop]

Sounds like a solid name. State your case as to why he's about the best. Not doubting him one bit. Just want to hear it in your own words. :)

I'm not trying to state unequivocally that Tejada is the very best five-tool talent around (after all, the title of the thread is who are the best as opposed to who is the best), just that his name certainly deserves to be thrown in alongside the other names already mentioned above.

That said, I'll be fair and admit that he actually possess four of the five tools necessary to be the complete package. While he could hit for power and average, as well as field and throw, his attempt to steal more bases has been lagging behind these past few years (though he still possesses a 73% success rate, which is pretty good)...

Anyhow, I don't think there's any doubt that Tejada has at least a better balance of skill than someone like Pujols.

[flash143817]

I wouldn't call Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, or Stan Musial 5-tool players.

Babe Ruth was a 5 tool player: average, power, arm, defense (great at positioning according to his peers), and pitching. The only tool he didn't have was speed but he still had over 100 steals in his career and multiple double-digit steal seasons.

[AcesDJD]

I'm not a Yankees fan at all, but Derek Jeter has to mentioned as a five tool player. Not that he's an all time great at everything, but he's pretty close.

[darkplague17]

Yeah, except for the hit for power, play defense well, and have a strong arm tools.

[Biggerin]

Manny Ramirez:

Average- His .286 BA is a little low this year, but he's .310 (I think) for his career.

Power- His 33 HRs are good for second place in the AL

Arm- His 13 assists lead the majors

Fielding- Spent more than half of the season with only one error

Speed- Has not been caught even ONCE ALL YEAR! that's 100%! He accomplished this feat with just a hair under 2 SB for the season. Impressive, I say.

So there you have it. All defensive and base running statistics are completely useless.

[AcesDJD]

Yeah, except for the hit for power, play defense well, and have a strong arm tools.


Jeter has decent power...not in today's context, but he's one I'll give credit for not being on steroids until I hear otherwise. His arm is pretty strong, I watch enough Yankees Sox games to know that. He may not have the strongest arm in the history of the game, but I don't know how much you expect out of a good shortstop.

[ElHalo]

Yeah, except for the hit for power, play defense well, and have a strong arm tools.

Jeter has a phenomenally strong arm. The others I'll leave alone.

[plask_stirlac]

Pujols has 11 SB and 1 CS. I don't think he's Gathright, but that's a better percentage anyway! DiMaggio's high, though in an era bad for this particular tool in stat form, was 6 SB, BTW.

Pujols and Lee are 4-tool, but I have no idea about arm strength. I guess we can just comp that one.

[RuthMayBond]

Manny Ramirez:

Fielding- Spent more than half of the season with only one error

Speed- Has not been caught even ONCE ALL YEAR! that's 100%! He accomplished this feat with just a hair under 2 SB for the season. Impressive, I say.

So there you have it. All defensive and base running statistics are completely useless.Not useless ,just this "evaluation" :laugh :laugh

[darkplague17]

Jeter has a phenomenally strong arm.

He has a good arm, above average, but nothing phenomenal.

Pujols and Lee are 4-tool, but I have no idea about arm strength. I guess we can just comp that one.

Once again, they're first basemen. If they could play another position in the field well, they would. But they can't -- thats why they're first basemen.

[SoxSon]

Not useless ,just this "evaluation" :laugh :laugh

I think he realizes that, RMB. ;) :D

[Zito75]

Jason Bay. The kid can play D, run, hit, hit for power... He's been overlooked for quite some time, and IMO, is probably the most underrated player in the Majors right now. Oh yeah, almost forgot... He's 16-0 on steal attempts this year, so he's smart too... ;)

[darkplague17]

Albert Pujols has an FRAA (fielding runs above average) of 1 run. That means that if you replace Pujols -- a gold-glove caliber defensive 1B -- with an average one, it will cost your team 1 run the entire season. In 2005, he's gathered 1.4 fielding win shares, ranking him as the 11th best 1B in the majors. In contrast, the 11th best 2B has 2.8, 11th best SS has 4.7, 11th best 3B has 3.2, 11th best catcher has 4.5, and 11th best OFer has 4.0.

Please people, enough with giving Pujols credit for his defense. He's a great hitter who walks a lot -- but that's it. I'm not saying the other tools (defense, strong arm) are nearly as important as hitting for power and average (or walking), but that doesn't change the fact he doesn't have them. Just keep in mind, before you rank Pujols as a good five tool player, he's a first baseman.

[Utter Chaos]

OK...well I have done a little researching
Some of the old ones were

Sosa -- Bonds -- Sheffield

Here are 3 or 4 tool players:crossfingers:
Prince Fielder -- i guess more speed, unsure about fielding, pretty fast though
Magglio Ordonez -- if anything some speed and maybe a drop of fielding
Edgar Rentirea -- a little more power/fielding
Matt Holliday -- i think he's a good fielder
Todd Helton -- more speed (lost some pop)
Tori Hunter -- especially fielding
Hanley Rameriz -- needs a little more power

Mostly five tool players
Alfonso Soriano FIELDING? i prolly should have put him under 4 tool players
Grady Sizemore 100% power, speed, arm, FIELDING!, average
Carlos Lee not sure about fielding
Vladmir Guerreo -- what's bad about him?
Andruw Jones -- hes a good 5-tool
Alex Rodriguz -- hes pretty good
David Wright -- nice fielder, arm, speed, power, average nothing special -- just all average
Derrek Lee -- whats not good
Miguel Tjeada -- i guess speed?
Jason Bay -- underated
Bobby Abreu -- not mentioned enough!
Carlos Beltran -- the best 5-tool player
Jeff Francoeur -- that average is falling...didnt he go 0-6 in stolen bases last year
Derek Jeter -- hes a good pick -- maybe more pop
Albert Pujols -- more speed though, and everything else is good
Eric Chavez -- IDK, do you think so I didnt see anything bad
:reporter: Told you, i did research

[natsnsoxfan]

I'd say Chavez is borderline because of his AVG. hitting and his speed is what you might expect from a a 5 tool player.

5-Tool

Beltran-Ultimate 5-Tool player
Sizemore-Younger version of Beltran
A-Rod-Slightly slower version of Beltran
D. Lee-Capable of stealing 20 in a year, great fielder and hitter
Jose Reyes-Basically the same player as Sizemore except he plays SS instead of CF
JD Drew-Hes definately 5-tool when healthy, doesn't steal much but he has the speed to

4 1/2-Tool

Carl Crawford-Not quite enough pop to be considered a 5-tool player but great otherwise, will be soon
Hanley Ramirez-Same as Crawford except he could do with improving his fielding some too
Vlad-Not quite the speed to be considered 5-tool, I think

4-Tool

Ichiro-No pop but other than that hes great
Baldelli-Not much for AVG. but has been a good power hitter when healthy and has one of the strongest outfield arms I've ever seen
Eric Chavez-Not much for average hitting either but has been a good power hitter and we all know what he can do with the glove
Torii Hunter-His average hitting isn't great either, pretty much the same as Chavez with more speed and better power at a different position
Soriano-Can't field at all but great otherwise
Jeter-Not quite the pop and is only about average defensively
Michael Young-Not real fast....

Theres a ton more 4-tool but i thought that was a good time to stop

[Edgartohof]

Beltran - Has a .281 career BA - only topped .300 twice in his career, and never been top 10 in BA. Has decent power, but been in top 10 in HR's only once (same goes for doubles).

Sizemore- Could get there, but is a .284 hitter as well (he is 15-0 on the bases this year though).

A-Rod- .306 BA for career, a batting title, hitting .314 this year. A 40-40 season, stolen 20+ bases 8 times in his career (80% for his career), great power (4 HR titles - on his way for a 5th). He also is a 2 time GG winner at SS (was very good for a big guy) - not so good at 3B, but is coming back to form after a horrible season in the field last year.

D. Lee- .280 hitter, (though .335 in 2005 and hitting .394 this year so far!!!). Power leaves something lacking for a great player (except 2005), 162 game avg. of only 28 HR's. Isn't great on the bases, very few triples, and a 69% success rate when stealing.

Jose Reyes- Really only lacking some power, which he certainly could develop. Other than that, he's good!

JD Drew- .285 hitter, who has only hit 30 HR's once in his career - I don't think so (also only 4 SB's since 2005!)

4 1/2-Tool

Carl Crawford- Just not enough HR power - but if you can say Reyes is a 5 tooler, why not Crawford?

Hanley Ramirez- Yeah, add some power and work on the fielding, you got it right

Vlad- not fast enough, and not good enough on the bases - inconcistent (only 67% success rate on the bases)

[The Great Nom]

I'd probably include Wright. He's a 25-30 homer guy and will steal 20-25 bases(maybe more this year, he's already got 9 bags).

[natsnsoxfan]

Beltran - Has a .281 career BA - only topped .300 twice in his career, and never been top 10 in BA. Has decent power, but been in top 10 in HR's only once (same goes for doubles).

Sizemore- Could get there, but is a .284 hitter as well (he is 15-0 on the bases this year though).

A-Rod- .306 BA for career, a batting title, hitting .314 this year. A 40-40 season, stolen 20+ bases 8 times in his career (80% for his career), great power (4 HR titles - on his way for a 5th). He also is a 2 time GG winner at SS (was very good for a big guy) - not so good at 3B, but is coming back to form after a horrible season in the field last year.

D. Lee- .280 hitter, (though .335 in 2005 and hitting .394 this year so far!!!). Power leaves something lacking for a great player (except 2005), 162 game avg. of only 28 HR's. Isn't great on the bases, very few triples, and a 69% success rate when stealing.

Jose Reyes- Really only lacking some power, which he certainly could develop. Other than that, he's good!

JD Drew- .285 hitter, who has only hit 30 HR's once in his career - I don't think so (also only 4 SB's since 2005!)

4 1/2-Tool

Carl Crawford- Just not enough HR power - but if you can say Reyes is a 5 tooler, why not Crawford?

Hanley Ramirez- Yeah, add some power and work on the fielding, you got it right

Vlad- not fast enough, and not good enough on the bases - inconcistent (only 67% success rate on the bases)

Reyes is a better power hitter than Crawford, i was borderline on him but i left him out of 5 because although i think he does have the potential to have enough power to be considered 5 tool i don't think hes there yet but i think that Jose has shown enough of it to be considered there. I'll give you Drew i may have overestimated him a bit but i stand by my others. I just don't think you can deny how good all around Beltran and Sizemore are, they are almost mirror images of one another and i think that they are on that plateau of 5-tool players.

[flash143817]

In his younger days Vlad was a solid 5-tool player, but now he's really "only" a 3-tool player.

He has hitting for average, hitting for power, and arm.

His defense is really lacking and he shows poor range. Also, his speed is no longer what it once was when he was stealing 40 bases (part of the reason his defense has declined). He really looks like he's laboring when he is running.

[natsnsoxfan]

In his younger days Vlad was a solid 5-tool player, but now he's really "only" a 3-tool player.

He has hitting for average, hitting for power, and arm.

His defense is really lacking and he shows poor range. Also, his speed is no longer what it once was when he was stealing 40 bases (part of the reason his defense has declined). He really looks like he's laboring when he is running.

I kind of agree with the "laboring" thing but i don't think hes lost much defensively, although it may help if he lost some weight, he looks rather heavy.

[Mattingly]

I'm curious, this thread is about 2 years old and referred to 5-toolers back then. Are the recent comments about 2005 players or 2006-07 players? If the latter, I can make a separate thread about this, moving the newer replies there.

[Utter Chaos]

I was thtinking about putting Drew in there but he just doesnt have enough speed as a 5 tool player should. :thumbsdown: Even though he is pretty fast, he doesnt steal bases, which a 5 tool player should. He barley ever bats over .300, and a 5 tool player should be batting at least .305. They probably should be batting over .320

[Utter Chaos]

I was thtinking about putting Drew in there but he just doesnt have enough speed as a 5 tool player should. :thumbsdown: Even though he is pretty fast, he doesnt steal bases, which a 5 tool player should. He barley ever bats over .300, and a 5 tool player should be batting at least .305. They probably should be batting over .320 26 is a number in history -- believe in 6. ~That's the present~

[Utter Chaos]

:dismay: In his younger days Vlad was a solid 5-tool player, but now he's really "only" a 3-tool player.

He has hitting for average, hitting for power, and arm.

His defense is really lacking and he shows poor range. Also, his speed is no longer what it once was when he was stealing 40 bases (part of the reason his defense has declined). He really looks like he's laboring when he is running.
Vlad was not a constant base stealer He stole about 15 a year. He stole 37 one year and 40 another year. THe other ones were 15s and nothing higher than 20. And he's 6'3" and 235 pounds. Wat do you expect him to be, 200? He'd be a stick.

[Utter Chaos]

SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1996 Montreal Expos 9 27 2 5 0 0 1 1 8 0 3 0 0 .185 .296 .185
1997 Montreal Expos 90 325 44 98 22 2 11 40 157 19 39 3 4 .350 .483 .302
1998 Montreal Expos 159 623 108 202 37 7 38 109 367 42 95 11 9 .371 .589 .324
1999 Montreal Expos 160 610 102 193 37 5 42 131 366 55 62 14 7 .378 .600 .316
2000 Montreal Expos 154 571 101 197 28 11 44 123 379 58 74 9 10 .410 .664 .345
2001 Montreal Expos 159 599 107 184 45 4 34 108 339 60 88 37 16 .377 .566 .307
2002 Montreal Expos 161 614 106 206 37 2 39 111 364 84 70 40 20 .417 .593 .336
2003 Montreal Expos 112 394 71 130 20 3 25 79 231 63 53 9 5 .426 .586 .330
2004 Anaheim Angels 156 612 124 206 39 2 39 126 366 52 74 15 3 .391 .598 .337
2005 Los Angeles Angels 141 520 95 165 29 2 32 108 294 61 48 13 1 .394 .565 .317
2006 Los Angeles Angels 156 607 92 200 34 1 33 116 335 50 68 15 5 .382 .552 .329
2007 Los Angeles Angels 42 145 25 50 13 0 10 38 93 27 14 1 1 .452 .641 .345

Career Totals 1499 5647 977 1836 341 39 348 1090 3299 571 688 167 81 .391 .584 .325

[Utter Chaos]

sorry...those DID NOT come out good...but, you could probably match up the SB pretty good

[Utter Chaos]

WHAT ABOUT VERNON WELLS!
I can't believe i forgot about him! :blush:

[natsnsoxfan]

I think Vernon lacks the speed to be considered 5-tool. His career high in steals is 17, last year, but previously to that it was only 9, which he had done in 2002 and 2004.

Also, i kind of noticed that people are considering this statistic, myself included, but that kind of made me think, are we talking 5-tool based on ability with some stats to back it up but not 100%, or 5-tool based on almost purely statistical evidence?

[digglahhh]

You guys are pretty harsh. Power isn't a "tool" for D. Lee because he only averages in the upper 20s per season?

You don't have to contest for league leadership in a category to have that ability as a "tool." You don't have to steal tons of bases, per se, to have speed.

[natsnsoxfan]

You guys are pretty harsh. Power isn't a "tool" for D. Lee because he only averages in the upper 20s per season?

You don't have to contest for league leadership in a category to have that ability as a "tool." You don't have to steal tons of bases, per se, to have speed.

Kind of what i was getting at before. It really depends on what you define as a tool. Is it statistical output or the ability to perform the feat consistently, regardless of whether or not you choose to.

[Edgartohof]

They may HAVE the 5 tools, but if they don't USE the tools, they are not 5 tool PLAYERS.

Being a 5-tool PLAYER kind of assumes that they actually USE the tools they have.

[digglahhh]

They may HAVE the 5 tools, but if they don't USE the tools, they are not 5 tool PLAYERS.

Being a 5-tool PLAYER kind of assumes that they actually USE the tools they have.

Vernon Wells uses his tool of speed to catch fly balls, but not necessarily to steal bases.

[utterchaos jr.]

Exactly...
Wells has great speed, and if you think about it he is faster than Pujols, who everyone has been considering a '5 tool player'

[utterchaos jr.]

I think Vernon lacks the speed to be considered 5-tool. His career high in steals is 17, last year, but previously to that it was only 9, which he had done in 2002 and 2004.

Also, i kind of noticed that people are considering this statistic, myself included, but that kind of made me think, are we talking 5-tool based on ability with some stats to back it up but not 100%, or 5-tool based on almost purely statistical evidence?

Stats are the only thing you have for some players
Sizemore hasn't been playing long enough for anybody to watch him and call him a "5 tool player"

Yet, basing him on skill is good too because...
sometimes, the NL has better pitchers than the AL or the AL has better ones
Also, if you are on the Royals, Sizemore will bat first
Compared to the yankees, where he could bat 5th or something that would give him less stats
it also counts on the manager to send him or not

[natsnsoxfan]

Stats are the only thing you have for some players
Sizemore hasn't been playing long enough for anybody to watch him and call him a "5 tool player"

Yet, basing him on skill is good too because...
sometimes, the NL has better pitchers than the AL or the AL has better ones
Also, if you are on the Royals, Sizemore will bat first
Compared to the yankees, where he could bat 5th or something that would give him less stats
it also counts on the manager to send him or not

That was kind of my point....

[Edgartohof]

In any case, being a 5-tool player doesn't automatically make you better than someone else (though it certainly can help).

There are other 3-tool and 4-toolers that are better than those with more "tools"

If one excells in a certain area, despite lacking in others, they still can be better than those players who are more well rounded.

[utterchaos jr.]

I know it was your point
I was kind of slim on the Idea but I read some of yours and backed it up
Base it some on skill because of some points like manager, line-up, team, league, age etc.

[joe_knowitall]

ARod, Carl Crawford, Vlad, Beltran, Berkman

[utterchaos jr.]

it get's carried away when people start saying Drew, or Berkman**
Sizemore, A-rod, Wright, Beltran, and Vlad are the best 5-tool players
Berkman and Drew have speed, but they don't even stel 10 a year
Sizemore, Wright, A-Rod, Vlad go 22 a year and Beltran will go 25
But, if you don't make it over 10 stolen bases in 162 games...speed is not a tool

[natsnsoxfan]

ARod, Carl Crawford, Vlad, Beltran, Berkman

Berkman? Are you kidding me? He has almost no speed and while he is a decent defender at 1st and in the OF he doesn't have much of an arm. I'd love to see you justify this.....