Looking back on 2005, 20 years from now...

[Astro]

What will be the most remembered event of the 2005 season, while the season is not over yet there have been many big events already. From Rafael Palmeiro getting busted for steroids, to the impressive rookie debuts of many players, 2005 has been a roller-coaster ride for many fans... Here are just a few things to consider:


Rafael Palmeiro's 10-Game Suspension for testing positive for steroids
Yankee's struggles with a payroll over 200 million
Impressive rookie debuts by future stars such as Felix Hernandez, Zach Duke, Justin Verlander, Huston Street and many more
The large amount of players that are still testing positive for steroids, including one minor leaguer who has tested positive 3 times already
Baltimore Orioles' impressive first half, staying in 1st over 2 teams with payrolls over 400 million combined
Lack of deadline deals that could mean the doormats are actually keeping their good players, leading to more competitive balance
The horrible showing of the Kansas City Royals and Colorado Rockies
The great story of the Montreal Expos moving to Washington and staying in 1st a good part of the season


There are many more, feel free to add some yourself... I'm going to try and stay on a positive note and hope that this year's rookie batch will produce many superstars... instead of the obvious choice of Raffy

[BristolBoy]

I get the feeling this'll go down as the official Year 1 of The Removal Of Steroids From Baseball years.

[abolishthedh]

You are correct, Astro, we need to be positive about this year and the riddance of steroids. I think its a very positive thing for users to be 'outed' by their health problems and/or their raw numbers. Here are 6 players who I think have been outed:

1. Jim Thome-- (back problems which are very similar to Canseco's)
2. Mike Lowell-- 6 homers and 51 BI in 350+ at bats?
3. Lance Berkman
4. Adrian Beltre
5. Brian Giles
6. Todd Helton

If these guys were users like I think they've been, then let them crash and burn. Its a very positive thing because it sets an example, especially when we fans take the time to point it out. Teenagers will be less likely to do the same. :)

[sschirmer]

I can't imagine Berkman and Helton were juicing, but what do I know?

[BoofBonser26]

I HOPE that Roger Clemen's season goes down as (one of) the best in modern baseball, but I don't know if he'll get enough wins for people to bother to look at it in 20 years. Do you realize if he had any run support it's not that absurd of a possibility for him to have 20 wins already? :eek:

[rudy]

I can't imagine Berkman and Helton were juicing, but what do I know?

I was thinking the same thing about Berkman. He just seems like a guy who wouldn't do roids.

I think the whole steroid issue will be remembered the most about this year, and I don't think anything else will even be a close second. And it shouldn't. Lots of rookies emerge each year, although admittedly there are a lot this year who are doing amazing, and people have good years, exceptional ones, almost every year.....but things like teh whole steroid issue don't come about very often, and as such, it will probably be what is remembered most.

[wamby]

I predict that by 2025, the Major League Players Association will have been sued by several former players who will be suffering very serious health problems due to steroid use. They will sue the PA for being slow in agreeing to steroid testing and thus not protecting its membership.

[buckthis]

I was thinking the same thing about Berkman. He just seems like a guy who wouldn't do roids.How many here figured Alex Sanchez used?

I'm not singling you out, Rudy, but to believe that a certain player would not do steroids is just that, a belief. And your belief is probably based on the same thing we all base our beliefs on about who's dirty and who's clean: common public perception ( unless you happen to know the guy ). There is no way knowing who used and who did not except for test results.

Because of the general public's perception of things, if someone mentioned Griffey, most fans would say "no way". Same with Pujols. But then there are other players who would get "yeah, positively he's using" if their names came up. All because of a reputation or perception.

Rudy, you said Berkman "just seems like a guy who wouldn't do 'roids". So I take that to mean you are going on (perceived) personality and not on physical appearance or 2005 perfromance.

[Blackout]

How many here figured Alex Sanchez used?

I'm not singling you out, Rudy, but to believe that a certain player would not do steroids is just that, a belief. And your belief is probably based on the same thing we all base our beliefs on about who's dirty and who's clean: common public perception ( unless you happen to know the guy ). There is no way knowing who used and who did not except for test results.

Because of the general public's perception of things, if someone mentioned Griffey, most fans would say "no way". Same with Pujols. But then there are other players who would get "yeah, positively he's using" if their names came up. All because of a reputation or perception.

Rudy, you said Berkman "just seems like a guy who wouldn't do 'roids". So I take that to mean you are going on (perceived) personality and not on physical appearance or 2005 perfromance.

how many here know who the hell Alex Sanchez was?

[rudy]

How many here figured Alex Sanchez used?

I'm not singling you out, Rudy, but to believe that a certain player would not do steroids is just that, a belief. And your belief is probably based on the same thing we all base our beliefs on about who's dirty and who's clean: common public perception ( unless you happen to know the guy ). There is no way knowing who used and who did not except for test results.

Because of the general public's perception of things, if someone mentioned Griffey, most fans would say "no way". Same with Pujols. But then there are other players who would get "yeah, positively he's using" if their names came up. All because of a reputation or perception.

Rudy, you said Berkman "just seems like a guy who wouldn't do 'roids". So I take that to mean you are going on (perceived) personality and not on physical appearance or 2005 perfromance.

You're absolutley right. I base my assumption on nothing other than how I perceive him to be. I don't contend to base it on anything else, nor did I mean to give the impression that I was. Lance just seems like a guy who is all natural; just goes out there and has fun, and loves playing the game. A guy who would wear his cowboy boots while playing if he could. A guy who is just good at what he does, and wouldn't need, or want, to take steroids. At least that's how I've always perceived him, and I guess thats why I have this opinion of him.

You are also right about Griffey---I don't think he has used them either. And again, probably for some of the same reasons as Berkman, aside from the cowboy boots.

But ya, it is just a belief, and I'm fully aware of that. That's why I'm not calling someone wrong for accusing him of using steroids; rather I'm just stating my opinion that I don't think he does....

[Steve Jeltz]

In 2025, nobody will care about what happened in baseball in 2005 because baseball will be what soccer used to be in this country. A sport with very few fans.

[NickG]

In 2025, nobody will care about what happened in baseball in 2005 because baseball will be what soccer used to be in this country. A sport with very few fans.

Justify this.

[wamby]

In 2025, nobody will care about what happened in baseball in 2005 because baseball will be what soccer used to be in this country. A sport with very few fans.

I agree with this. The game is one work stoppage away from irrelevency. Also, by 2025 the most hard-core fans will be guys in their 60s and 70s. To attract younger fans, the game will have to make major changes like adding some extreeme elements of some kind and probably have a post-season closer to the NBA than what it has now. If it stays the same as it is right now (which is an inferior product compared to 30 years ago) very few kids today will follow it in the future. I think the majority of kids who are forced to play youth baseball by their parents will drop the game as soon as they can. I think the same will happen with kids who actually like to play the game, but are turned off by crazy ultr-competitive parents.

The professionalism of todays athletes stink. I shudder to think how it will be twenty years from now.

[Astro]

I think the majority of kids who are forced to play youth baseball by their parents will drop the game as soon as they can. I think the same will happen with kids who actually like to play the game, but are turned off by crazy ultr-competitive parents.

The professionalism of todays athletes stink. I shudder to think how it will be twenty years from now.

My solution to you then is to stop watching baseball now... Sure there are some extremly competitive parents that push their kids to succeed bout that only makes up about 5% of the parents, it just seems like more due to news stories on one psycho parents

Also, do you not know that pretty much EVERY high school has a baseball team, and around 90% of all colleges have a team... your inference is implying that people go from little league to the minors, high schoolers and college students are able to make their own choices on if they want to play baseball or not

You shouldnt buy into everything you see on TV, most parents dont force their kids into playing something they dont want to, nor do high school and college students go work out, condition and try out for a team just to please mommy and daddy

And who can blame half the athletes about not liking the media, when all the media does is follow them around and wait for them to mess up ONCE then plaster it everywhere and convince feeble-minded fans that they're the villain

To Steve: Like soccer used to be? When has soccer ever been a big sport in the US


The point is baseball will always be a big sport, because people want to watch sports and during the summer what else is there to watch?

[Vidor]

Y'all can spare us the prophecies of doom, please, which we've heard for decades, and which never come true.

What I'll look back on is the Cardinals finally winning their tenth World Championship.

[Steve Jeltz]

To Steve: Like soccer used to be? When has soccer ever been a big sport in the US




I see more kids, from say age 7 on up playing soccer than baseball in neighborhood parks. The baseball fields are vacant and are only used for organized little league baseball. I never see any pickup baseball games anymore.

[runningshoes]

I predict that by 2025, the Major League Players Association will have been sued by several former players who will be suffering very serious health problems due to steroid use. They will sue the PA for being slow in agreeing to steroid testing and thus not protecting its membership.

The stupid protecting the stupid from themselves..interesting.

[runningshoes]

how many here know who the hell Alex Sanchez was?


You'd be surprised what and who we know and what and who we don't know.

In 25 years, we're going to be taking a real hard look at who were actually the best players of this era and in the near future atheletes are going to have to start impressing us again..not only in thier performance, but in the way they treat fans as well. I walked away in '94 and I can do it again. There are more important things in life than watching a bunch of over oversized, steroid packed cry-babies throw a ball. My son throws a ball and when he does it, he smiles at me.

[E.Banks#14]

I must be the last of a dying breed. I'm 14, and I try to play as many pickup games of baseball every summer as I can. If we've only got 4 people, we'll play a doubles derby. If there's just 2 of us, we'll fungo to each other.

I am going the opposite way most people say sports are going. I played soccer since I was five until I was twelve. I played my first season of baseball when I was 13 (I'm still mad at my mom for not signing me up for baseball earlier. (Don't think that I'm really bad either, because I've been the best fielder on every one of my teams)). I love baseball, and in my neighborhood, baseball totally dominates soccer.

Most of the time, we can put together a 3 on 3 game. Pitcher, Left Center, and Right Center. We play pitcher's hand since we don't have enough for a 1B.

I can't imagine summer without baseball.

[runningshoes]

I can't imagine summer without baseball.

And you'll never have to, don't worry about it. You should start teachings your virtues to those around you. The future of baseball in your hands.

[AutographCollector]

I see more kids, from say age 7 on up playing soccer than baseball in neighborhood parks. The baseball fields are vacant and are only used for organized little league baseball. I never see any pickup baseball games anymore.
What part of the country do you live in? No man's land? I see "pick up games" all the time on my way to work every day at 2:30p.m. The ball fields are jammed with kids playing the game.



I can't imagine summer without baseball.
Smart kid. :clapping

[wamby]

The stupid protecting the stupid from themselves..interesting.

I think it will be similar to liflelong cigarette smokers who sue tobacco companys.

[wamby]

What part of the country do you live in? No man's land? I see "pick up games" all the time on my way to work every day at 2:30p.m. The ball fields are jammed with kids playing the game.



Smart kid. :clapping

I haven't seen any kids playing pickup games this summer in either Alabama or Ohio.

[AutographCollector]

I haven't seen any kids playing pickup games this summer in either Alabama or Ohio.
Then I suppose that it depends on whether or not the kids are interested in playing or not. ;)

My son at the age of 4 yrs old loves to play catch with me at the park when I get him on my visitation weekends.

[wamby]

My solution to you then is to stop watching baseball now... Sure there are some extremly competitive parents that push their kids to succeed bout that only makes up about 5% of the parents, it just seems like more due to news stories on one psycho parents

Also, do you not know that pretty much EVERY high school has a baseball team, and around 90% of all colleges have a team... your inference is implying that people go from little league to the minors, high schoolers and college students are able to make their own choices on if they want to play baseball or not

You shouldnt buy into everything you see on TV, most parents dont force their kids into playing something they dont want to, nor do high school and college students go work out, condition and try out for a team just to please mommy and daddy

And who can blame half the athletes about not liking the media, when all the media does is follow them around and wait for them to mess up ONCE then plaster it everywhere and convince feeble-minded fans that they're the villain

To Steve: Like soccer used to be? When has soccer ever been a big sport in the US


The point is baseball will always be a big sport, because people want to watch sports and during the summer what else is there to watch?

I'm going by what I see both in my community and among my friends etc. I don't see many kids who really like baseball unless they are playing it on some video game system,

As far as the media, I didn't mention them and I don't care about how the media chacterizes certain players. I don't like the unprofessionalism shown by a great many players today.

I haven't gone to a game since April of 2003 and I can't really say I miss it. After the 1981 strike, I didn't return to a ballpark until 1985.

Baseball's best days are behind it. It has a great history but it wouldn't surprise me in 20 years if MLB has achieved NHL status.

[Steve Jeltz]

Justify this.

Gladly.

The majority of the hardcore baseball fans today are ages 40 on up. While there are certainly younger fans of baseball, they do not match the number of young fans for the NFL and the NBA. In twenty years, today's older fans will have passed on and the middle age fans that are still around in 2025, will be in the minority.

Another point I would like to add is that the majority of today's children, if given the choice between playing baseball, basketball or football would choose to play football or basketball before baseball. When was the last time you saw an unorganized pickup baseball game played by kids? You see pickup basketball and football games today, but never baseball being played, at least in the towns of where I haved lived over the years. The diamonds in parks are unused, with the exception of little league. The majority of youths today find baseball to be slow and boring. They want speed and constant action, which baseball does not provide.

Perhaps the soccer reference was a stretch, but I see kids today playing unorganized soccer more and more than in past years. Soccer is slowly gaining popularity in this country, at least among kids. I find that unusual because soccer is extremely boring. Whether they grow up and become soccer fans is another question, but I know what I have seen over the past 15 years.

Baseball, at least in the U.S., by 2025 will be akin to the NHL. But baseball will continue prosper in Japan and the Carribean countries, so baseball will not die. I certainly hope my prediction is wrong and baseball has a strong resurgence, but the steroid scandal has put baseball in its worst light since the Black Sox debacle. And I do not see a Babe Ruth right now coming to save the game.

[Vidor]

I certainly hope my prediction is wrong

This is one of the biggest BS things I see on message boards. People who make predictions don't hope they're wrong, otherwise they wouldn't make them. People want to be right.

And the notion that baseball will be akin to the NHL in twenty years is totally ridiculous.

[Imapotato]

I must be the last of a dying breed. I'm 14, and I try to play as many pickup games of baseball every summer as I can. If we've only got 4 people, we'll play a doubles derby. If there's just 2 of us, we'll fungo to each other.

I am going the opposite way most people say sports are going. I played soccer since I was five until I was twelve. I played my first season of baseball when I was 13 (I'm still mad at my mom for not signing me up for baseball earlier. (Don't think that I'm really bad either, because I've been the best fielder on every one of my teams)). I love baseball, and in my neighborhood, baseball totally dominates soccer.

Most of the time, we can put together a 3 on 3 game. Pitcher, Left Center, and Right Center. We play pitcher's hand since we don't have enough for a 1B.

I can't imagine summer without baseball.

That's sad

4 people??

We use to have a bench in pickup games, at least 25 kids in the neighborhood would show up...how times have changed

[E.Banks#14]

Were they all the same age as you?

I don't think there are even 25 guys within my age group (1 year under, 1 over) in my neighborhood.

[Astro]

Gladly.

The majority of the hardcore baseball fans today are ages 40 on up. While there are certainly younger fans of baseball, they do not match the number of young fans for the NFL and the NBA. In twenty years, today's older fans will have passed on and the middle age fans that are still around in 2025, will be in the minority.

Another point I would like to add is that the majority of today's children, if given the choice between playing baseball, basketball or football would choose to play football or basketball before baseball. When was the last time you saw an unorganized pickup baseball game played by kids? You see pickup basketball and football games today, but never baseball being played, at least in the towns of where I haved lived over the years. The diamonds in parks are unused, with the exception of little league. The majority of youths today find baseball to be slow and boring. They want speed and constant action, which baseball does not provide.

Perhaps the soccer reference was a stretch, but I see kids today playing unorganized soccer more and more than in past years. Soccer is slowly gaining popularity in this country, at least among kids. I find that unusual because soccer is extremely boring. Whether they grow up and become soccer fans is another question, but I know what I have seen over the past 15 years.

Baseball, at least in the U.S., by 2025 will be akin to the NHL. But baseball will continue prosper in Japan and the Carribean countries, so baseball will not die. I certainly hope my prediction is wrong and baseball has a strong resurgence, but the steroid scandal has put baseball in its worst light since the Black Sox debacle. And I do not see a Babe Ruth right now coming to save the game.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how ill-witted and clueless they may or may not be... you use pick up games as a example of kids not liking baseball, well for a pickup game in baseball you need A GREAT DEAL MORE people than basketball or football requires, that is the main reason... you leave out the fact that almost every high school has a team for varsity and junior varsity, most have freshman teams too... so thats about 60 or 70 kids playing baseball for one school...

On steroids: I do not know anyone who has stopped watch baseball due to the steroid scandal

It seems to me like your more interested in soccer than baseball, maybe you should try a soccer site instead (soccer-fever.com?), baseball will always be a top sport due to soccer will never be big in the US, and people will always want to watch sports so when no other sports are being played during the summer, baseball will continue to bring in viewers...

Not to mention at this time in 20 years the World Cup of Baseball (or whatever its official name is) will be well underway and should feature some great competition

Just wondering, Steve, were you one of those people who went and bought 600 gallons of water and canned food for Y2K?

[Astro]

That's sad

4 people??

We use to have a bench in pickup games, at least 25 kids in the neighborhood would show up...how times have changed

You live in New York, when you break it down into a ratio of kids per square mile around the same age, it probably isnt far off from you

[runningshoes]

Another point I would like to add is that the majority of today's children, if given the choice between playing baseball, basketball or football would choose to play football or basketball before baseball.


Kids look for the instant gratification they get from football and basketball; the violence of a hard hit, or a basket scored every 15 seonds. They don't get it from baseball. We love the game because in order to play it, you must be patient and if you're succeful 30 per cent of time, you're a great player. Success in baseball is beating the odds, and for most kids the odds are to high.

[NickG]

For what it's worth, I find soccer at its highest levels to be a far more interesting sport than football or basketball, because of the strategy involved, the pace of the up and down the field action (much faster than its reputation - see the second leg of Chelsea v. Barcelona in the Champions League last year).

But that's beside the point - I find the idea that baseball could be as "popular as soccer" as has been suggested in this thread to be pretty useless as anything other than hyperbole. The fact is that baseball is, in no small sense, America's game. I mean, sure, more people watch football on a game by game basis, but football is only played once a week, and Americans will watch baseball during the week, if nothing else.

My theory right now is that baseball is stronger than it has ever been. The internationalization of the game means that there are better players than ever before, and the players are bigger, stronger, and faster (and not all on steroids, despite doom-and-gloom projections from people who have either ratings or money to gain from those projections). Competitive balance is better than it has ever been, once again despite complaints to the contrary. Both of these problems can be better than it is, and the game will only be stronger as a result.

[Steve Jeltz]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how ill-witted and clueless they may or may not be... you use pick up games as a example of kids not liking baseball, well for a pickup game in baseball you need A GREAT DEAL MORE people than basketball or football requires, that is the main reason... you leave out the fact that almost every high school has a team for varsity and junior varsity, most have freshman teams too... so thats about 60 or 70 kids playing baseball for one school...

On steroids: I do not know anyone who has stopped watch baseball due to the steroid scandal

It seems to me like your more interested in soccer than baseball, maybe you should try a soccer site instead (soccer-fever.com?), baseball will always be a top sport due to soccer will never be big in the US, and people will always want to watch sports so when no other sports are being played during the summer, baseball will continue to bring in viewers...

Not to mention at this time in 20 years the World Cup of Baseball (or whatever its official name is) will be well underway and should feature some great competition

Just wondering, Steve, were you one of those people who went and bought 600 gallons of water and canned food for Y2K?

Astro, you can disagree with my opinions all you want, but don't call me clueless and ill-witted just because I don't have the same opinion as you do. I never called you or anybody else who disagrees with me names.

[abolishthedh]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how ill-witted and clueless they may or may not be... you use pick up games as a example of kids not liking baseball, well for a pickup game in baseball you need A GREAT DEAL MORE people than basketball or football requires, that is the main reason... you leave out the fact that almost every high school has a team for varsity and junior varsity, most have freshman teams too... so thats about 60 or 70 kids playing baseball for one school...

On steroids: I do not know anyone who has stopped watch baseball due to the steroid scandal

It seems to me like your more interested in soccer than baseball, maybe you should try a soccer site instead (soccer-fever.com?), baseball will always be a top sport due to soccer will never be big in the US, and people will always want to watch sports so when no other sports are being played during the summer, baseball will continue to bring in viewers...

Not to mention at this time in 20 years the World Cup of Baseball (or whatever its official name is) will be well underway and should feature some great competition

Just wondering, Steve, were you one of those people who went and bought 600 gallons of water and canned food for Y2K?

Steve Jeltz has a major point here, Astro, for 2 very big reasons. One at a time.

1. In my childhood, we played pickup games on an empty lot which we wore into a playable diamond. The games were usually 4 on 4, and only sometimes as much as 5 on 5. We did NOT need full lineups, because we played with a wiffleball bat and a tennis ball. The reduced number of players and the limited equipment were well matched, AND WE WERE AT LEAST PLAYING A FACSIMILE OF THE GAME WITH NEARLY THE SAME RULES AS REAL BASEBALL.

The point is that as I grew up I noticed empty well manicured fields, fields which we would have drooled to play upon, with hardly a cleatmark in Spring or summer! Gorgeous fields, and empty. Our field had been downhill to first and second, then uphill from second to third and then to home. A cow pasture for left field and a scary old lady's backyard for right field. A ball hit into either 'field' was foul and two fouls became a strikeout. We didn't care about 95 degree heat, and we used our bikes as backstops. And we played 3-4 times a week.

Today's kids don't want to play on the very best fields money can buy, and WHY? Maybe because they don't want the structure of all these parents around, and coaches to instruct on correct technique? I couldn't wait to play just to see if I could imitate Tony Perez' batting stance, and today there are videos which dictate that all hitters must have the same mechanics. That very fact takes the FUN out of the game, the experimentation out of the game, and the sense of discovery for the athletes. Summer 'play' ends up like school, with more structure (the very structure that summer play is meant to forget).

We played pickup games on sandlots to avoid our chores, as a way to rebel. Today a kid rebels by saying "Ah, do I have to go to practice? Its too hot!"

So, to conclude point #1, are kids playing unsupervised pickup games in YOUR neighborhood without the structure just for the fun of the game?!!? After 25-30 years of looking around, I bet not.

2. We know about this point, so I won't argue it long. The second major threat to baseball's future (especially 20 or so years from now) is the price of everything involved with it. If your underemployed inlaw can't take his kids to the game because he just can't afford it, and those kids would rather spend their summers on skateboards, then of course it threatens the game's future!

SJ is correct in the spirit of his post, soccor analogies or not.

[Astro]

Today a kid rebels by saying "Ah, do I have to go to practice? Its too hot!"

Wow, after reading this part of your post I didn't bother reading the rest...

[abolishthedh]

Complacency is a real problem. The desire to play has to be greater than the adverse conditions around the idea of playing. In many parts of Latin America (Venezuela, Dom Republic, Cuba) ballplayers are risking their safety just to play. Here in the U.S., in the inner city, pickup basketball games show the same spirit. However, over baseball, American kids complain about the weather and the fact that they practice too often. Or that the coach isn't putting them in the game. If a kid really wants to play, he/she will play without the structure. We'll always have ballplayers and MLB, but will we recognize MLB when we watch it?

[plask_stirlac]

Here are 6 players who I think have been outed:

1. Jim Thome-- (back problems which are very similar to Canseco's)
2. Mike Lowell-- 6 homers and 51 BI in 350+ at bats?
3. Lance Berkman
4. Adrian Beltre
5. Brian Giles
6. Todd Helton


Wow! Maybe Berkman and Beltre were on them. That's it, the rest is overkill.

And I wasn't reminded of the XFL, etc. in any recent postseason. They're still big deals. Attendance is massive all year and then the playoffs get people talking. Baseball will thrive in 2025. It has tradition, love for stats and love for everything besides stats by players and fans.

[Astro]

Complacency is a real problem. The desire to play has to be greater than the adverse conditions around the idea of playing. In many parts of Latin America (Venezuela, Dom Republic, Cuba) ballplayers are risking their safety just to play. Here in the U.S., in the inner city, pickup basketball games show the same spirit. However, over baseball, American kids complain about the weather and the fact that they practice too often. Or that the coach isn't putting them in the game. If a kid really wants to play, he/she will play without the structure. We'll always have ballplayers and MLB, but will we recognize MLB when we watch it?

Sounds to me like your a cranky old man who wants to overgeneralize a few kids who complain about too much practice or the weather, saying the masses feel this way

Which is the same reason I stopped reading your post before this one

[plask_stirlac]

We'll remmeber the horrible Rockies? They're on pace to lose about 100, but so what? We don't think about the 2002 Brewers very much.

Now, the Royals... but the 1989 Tigers are pretty forgotten for example, they lost 109.

[holyroman]

You are correct, Astro, we need to be positive about this year and the riddance of steroids. I think its a very positive thing for users to be 'outed' by their health problems and/or their raw numbers. Here are 6 players who I think have been outed:

1. Jim Thome-- (back problems which are very similar to Canseco's)
2. Mike Lowell-- 6 homers and 51 BI in 350+ at bats?
3. Lance Berkman
4. Adrian Beltre
5. Brian Giles
6. Todd Helton

If these guys were users like I think they've been, then let them crash and burn. Its a very positive thing because it sets an example, especially when we fans take the time to point it out. Teenagers will be less likely to do the same. :)

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE kidding is injuring your knee in a flag football game at a church related to steroids (idiotic maybe) and he's putting up pretty good numbers for a guy who was out the first two months of the year.

come on , how about scott rolen that guy was garbage this year before he went down and look at the size of him. that is a guy that is a out of proportion!! your list sux with berkman in it i'm not the only one here who thinks he doesn't belong

[holyroman]

now i see there is a reason you stopped expounding on berkman.... you couldn't make a case.
there is no reason to throw a guys name out there like that.

[Imapotato]

I agree with this. The game is one work stoppage away from irrelevency. Also, by 2025 the most hard-core fans will be guys in their 60s and 70s. To attract younger fans, the game will have to make major changes like adding some extreeme elements of some kind and probably have a post-season closer to the NBA than what it has now. If it stays the same as it is right now (which is an inferior product compared to 30 years ago) very few kids today will follow it in the future. I think the majority of kids who are forced to play youth baseball by their parents will drop the game as soon as they can. I think the same will happen with kids who actually like to play the game, but are turned off by crazy ultr-competitive parents.

The professionalism of todays athletes stink. I shudder to think how it will be twenty years from now.


I disagree

I think baseball is TRYING extreme elements trying to be like other sports, and that is why they are losing the fans and potential players that love the slower, chess like quality of baseball...how it should be played IAW with the rules and guidlines

Trying to make baseball something it is not, will be its downfall

Basketball, Football hasn't changed all that much, sure they have rule changes but the main elements of the game have remained the same...Marino and Manning are comparable. Julius Irving and LeBron James are comparable.

Andre Dawson and Gary Sheffield...nope..

[Astro]

Basketball, Football hasn't changed all that much, sure they have rule changes but the main elements of the game have remained the same...Marino and Manning are comparable. Julius Irving and LeBron James are comparable.

Basketball adding the 3 point line isnt a major change?
Football has totally changed gears from running almost every play to passing most than running...

[Imapotato]

running and passing yards haven't swung too much one way or another

Dillon recently ran for the most yards in one game...Jamal Lewis broke 2000 yards recently or set a record...I don't follow that much

and the 3 point line was way back when in B-ball, the basic concept of the game hasn't changed all that much from mid 70's or so to now

You look at 1990 in baseball to today...it's a different watered down strategy in baseball, that's only 15 years

[Astro]

26 years is way way back? But you compare baseball from 15 years ago to today?

[abolishthedh]

now i see there is a reason you stopped expounding on berkman.... you couldn't make a case.
there is no reason to throw a guys name out there like that.

I was also the first to tell my coworkers in 1996 that Clemens was a near lock for the Hall before he won 2 additional Cys with the Blue Jays in 1997 and 1998. Since then his ridiculous performance makes me wonder about him. I'll always question things, no matter where my stance might have been in the past.

Time will tell, stick around on this site, and in 20 years we'll know. ;)

[wamby]

[QUOTE=Vidor]This is one of the biggest BS things I see on message boards. People who make predictions don't hope they're wrong, otherwise they wouldn't make them. People want to be right.

I think you are wrong about this. Last year I predicted who be be elected President and I hoped I was wrong. I also made a prediction about the World Series and hoped I was wrong. Last night I predicted what kind of noght I would have at work and hoped I was rong. I have predicted where gas prices would go and hoped I was wrong. I could go on.

[Astro]

Now that the season is over and we're into 2006, do you think any views are different on how it may be looked at, from 4 months ago

[Dodger Green]

I find this doom and gloom stuff amusing. Every generation says this about the next generation: lazy kids, they don't care about the game, they don't play it like I used to.

I'm 20 years old, and live in Los Angeles, but grew up in a small community within LA - we stuck in our own neighborhood. My high school only had 150 kids, total. My junior year, we finally got a baseball team - we all loved it. Greatest thing, even though we went 0-18 our first year. My friends and brothers and I would play baseball every weekend - we usually had to play in our back yard since the fields at the park were always in use.

I became a baseball fan during the time of replacement players at the beginning of '95. Didn't bother me at all. I actually find that the strike aspect of sports is more damaging to older fans than younger ones, since we're sort of used to it. Strikes don't hurt younger fans, they hurt older ones who feel nostalgia to the past and who feel betrayed. It's hard for new fans to feel betrayed by something they don't have a huge attatchment to quite yet.

Baseball is doing better than it ever has in terms of popularity. Read up on the attendance figures of the 1950s - why do you think so many teams moved? People didn't show up, didn't care. The idea that there are less fans today is ludicrous and revisionist.

Baseball is doing fine, and will continue to do fine.

[BristolBoy]

I'm going by what I see both in my community and among my friends etc. I don't see many kids who really like baseball unless they are playing it on some video game system.Some of us have to make do with what we have. I would imagine in certain parts of the US (and let's not beat about the bush here, the vast majority of states are bigger than my entire country) baseball just isn't popular amongst the kids or people in general - to quote one of my favourite films, 'England to me is just like another big state that doesn't actually exist, like Canada, or North Dakota. I'm never going to North Dakota and I'm never going to England!'.

[BristolBoy]

Another point I would like to add is that the majority of today's children, if given the choice between playing baseball, basketball or football would choose to play football or basketball before baseball. When was the last time you saw an unorganized pickup baseball game played by kids? You see pickup basketball and football games today, but never baseball being played, at least in the towns of where I haved lived over the years. The diamonds in parks are unused, with the exception of little league. The majority of youths today find baseball to be slow and boring. They want speed and constant action, which baseball does not provide.

Perhaps the soccer reference was a stretch, but I see kids today playing unorganized soccer more and more than in past years. Soccer is slowly gaining popularity in this country, at least among kids. I find that unusual because soccer is extremely boring. Whether they grow up and become soccer fans is another question, but I know what I have seen over the past 15 years.If I may interject, the reason for (argh) soccer being played moreso than other sports is the sheer accessibility for kids. What do you need to play a game in the park? A ball, a minimum of 3 other players (realistically) and four things you can use for posts.

It's the same scenario with cricket here, kids really want to play it - but without two bats, a good 5 or so other people and something to substitute for wickets and a ball that will bounce properly on normal grass as opposed to a pitch, it's not going to happen. Like it or not, pickup baseball for kids isn't as feasible as a game of (argh again) soccer.

Case in point, at university last year, on the last day that our flat was all going to be together before going home for summer, we wanted to play a bit of (argh) soccer. We went to a local shop, paid £4.50 ($8? Something like that) for a ball because no one had one with them and spent a good 3-4 hours playing, laughing about the year we had and generally having fun. We're all cricket fans, but if we wanted to play cricket we would have had to have spent about £70 ($130? Something along those lines) and got about another 4 or 5 people involved, which defeated the object of it being an end of year get together for just us.

Think back to when you were a youngster - were you organised enough to be able to get together enough people for a baseball game at the drop of a hat? Football (sorry, momentary slip of the tongue there, soccer - God I hate calling it that) simply provides an easier way to get together and play.

[EDIT] Just something I thought I'd add here - on New Year's Eve it snowed here, and due to the time of year, both myself and all my friends were back in Bristol. One phone call to one mate that consisted literally of 'Football in the snow, 5pm?' and then hanging the phone up was enough to get 8 of us, all in bad shape to play a game of (do I have to call it this this time?) soccer in snow, with freezing wind and temperature, rather than going out and getting drunk on New Year's Eve like every other student would have. Another qualifier to this - not a single one of us is fit, and the one guy who was came back from university built like a house. It doesn't matter, we wanted to play in the snow.

[plask_stirlac]

I see more kids, from say age 7 on up playing soccer than baseball in neighborhood parks. The baseball fields are vacant and are only used for organized little league baseball. I never see any pickup baseball games anymore.

But that's only the American players.

[Chisox73]

20 years from now,when I look back at 2005,this will be the main image from that season,at least for me.
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/2005/10/27/zuBAm6xR.jpg

[Texas Rangers]

I think the greatest achievement of the 2005 year was the Chicago White Sox breaking their curse. Who will be next??

[pacewon]

Yankee's struggles with a payroll over 200 million

Baltimore Orioles' impressive first half, staying in 1st over 2 teams with payrolls over 400 million combined[/list]


On point #1, the Yankees struggles lasted about 5 weeks when they started out 11-19. From that point to the end of the season, they had the best record in baseball. That's a 132-game span.

Point #2 is not very accurate at all.

As to the original question, I'll probably remember the individual seasons of A-Rod and Roger Clemens the most. A few decades from now they're both going to be legends, and both had phenomenal 2005 campaigns.

Of course, the Yankee fan in me won't let me forget the fact that the Red Sox blew a 4-game division lead with 3 weeks left to play, after hearing all about the Yankees 2004 choke for an entire year.

[holyroman]

i hope the astros break through this year. they will again have the best relief staff in the nl. An improving offense and a pretty damn good pitching staff if they can get the rocket back. then again they could suck.

[Astro]

On point #1, the Yankees struggles lasted about 5 weeks when they started out 11-19. From that point to the end of the season, they had the best record in baseball. That's a 132-game span.

Point #2 is not very accurate at all.

As to the original question, I'll probably remember the individual seasons of A-Rod and Roger Clemens the most. A few decades from now they're both going to be legends, and both had phenomenal 2005 campaigns.

Of course, the Yankee fan in me won't let me forget the fact that the Red Sox blew a 4-game division lead with 3 weeks left to play, after hearing all about the Yankees 2004 choke for an entire year.
Look at the date of that post, slick, and also if your trying to tell me the Yankees didnt struggle with pitching throughout the entire season, then you must be blind or just not very knowledgable

What isnt accurate about the 2nd one? The O's competed with the Yankees and Red Sox (whos combined pay roll before the season started was above 400 mil i do believe)

Does it really matter who blew what division lead? Neither the Yankees nor the Red Sox were near good enough to compete in the playoffs

[pacewon]

Look at the date of that post, slick, and also if your trying to tell me the Yankees didnt struggle with pitching throughout the entire season, then you must be blind or just not very knowledgable

What isnt accurate about the 2nd one? The O's competed with the Yankees and Red Sox (whos combined pay roll before the season started was above 400 mil i do believe)

Does it really matter who blew what division lead? Neither the Yankees nor the Red Sox were near good enough to compete in the playoffs

I guess I'm not very knowledgeable then, because I don't consider the Yankees pitching to have been "struggling" in the last two months of the season when Chacon and Small were outstanding, Wang returned, and Randy Johnson was filthy for the entire stretch run. This, of course, is all irrelevant anyway, since you only specified the Yankees struggles as "pitching" when I pointed out that they were the best team in baseball over a 130-game span beginning in early May.

There is no chance the Yankees and Red Sox payrolls combined to surpass $400 mil. The Yankees' payroll was $207M. The Red Sox were at $117M. 207 + 117 = 324. I have a link to an article confirming these figures if you'd like to see it. Perhaps you should be a bit more careful next time you want to throw around insults about people not being "very knowledgeable", especially when you're spitting out faulty information yourself that is so easy to shoot down.

As for your last little jab, an Astros fan's opinion isn't very relative to a Yankees fan who is stating what he will remember from 2005... I could say that whatever memories you will have of the Astros' World Series appearance are worthless because they got embarrassed there and likely won't be back for a long time, but what purpose would that serve?

[AstroBrit]

Lance Berkman's numbers down because of steroids? I thought it was because he tore an ACL playing flag football...