Kennard Street Park in Cleveland

[runningshoes]

When Bill Phillips took the field at Kennard Street Park in Cleveland, Ohio in May 1879, he not only made baseball history, the 22-year-old made Canadian history as well. Phillips, a native of St. John, New Brunswick, was the first Canadian play along side U. S. players in the America’s fledgling pastime.


Does anyone have or know anything about the old Kennard Street Park in Cleveland where the Blues played from 1879 to the mid 1880's? I'm doing rsearch for a book I'm writing and anything at all would be a big help. :hp

[cnp3]

When Bill Phillips took the field at Kennard Street Park in Cleveland, Ohio in May 1879, he not only made baseball history, the 22-year-old made Canadian history as well. Phillips, a native of St. John, New Brunswick, was the first Canadian play along side U. S. players in the America’s fledgling pastime.


Does anyone have or know anything about the old Kennard Street Park in Cleveland where the Blues played from 1879 to the mid 1880's? I'm doing rsearch for a book I'm writing and anything at all would be a big help. :hp
This is an old thread to drudge up for my first post, eh?

I've been looking into it a bit.

So, first we have to figure out where the heck Kennard Street Park is.

You have to figure Kennard Street is a good place to start - here's a map from 1890's Cleveland

http://www.cnp3.com/images/kennard1.JPG

Kennard street is the orange line. Just Northeast of the north end of Kennard Street is a item labeled "Base Ball Grounds" Seems likely that's the ticket - although the purple box is big enough for baseball parks in any of those city blocks. There's currently a baseball field at a rec center where i have the pink box - but no maps of the time have anything but streets there, and I think it's unlikely that the field was there

The thing that makes me unsure of that "Base Ball Grounds" is it's size - for reference on this map - I've traced where some of Cleveland's major fields are - The red box is Jacobs Field - the Green box is Quicken Loans Arena (Gund Arena) and the Brown box is where old League Park stood. That yellow Box around "Base Ball Grounds" is huge - and part of what makes me curious about how big the parcel of land can actually be for Kennard Street Park is this tidbit from Baseball Library's chronology (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/chronology/byyear.php?year=1880) -

Aug 10 - Larry Corcoran's one-hitter beats the Grays‚ 5-1‚ Bradley doubling over the RF wall in the 8th for the only Providence hit. Chicago's Lake Front Park‚ Buffalo's Riverside Park‚ and Cleveland's Kennard Street Park all have ground rules call for only two bases on hits over certain portions of the outfield fences.

Anyway - The next picture is the google image of where "base ball grounds" was -

http://www.cnp3.com/images/kennard2.JPG

The nifty looking building is the headquarters of Applied Industrial Technologies (www.applied.com) and the rest of the neighborhood is light industrial/residential.

This is not currently Cleveland's safest neighborhood

The next picture is the purple box - those 6 city blocks I think big enough for a field.

http://www.cnp3.com/images/kennard3.JPG

There is an area south of Kennard Street that is a railyard.

If you're interested in looking around there on google or something - bear in mind that street names have changed to the following

Kennard Street - East 46th Street
Case Avenue - East 40th Street
Sterling Avenue - East 30th street
Hayward Avenue - East 36th Street
Garden Street - Central Avenue

Hope this helps - I wonder what you've found out about it? Am I even looking in the right place?

[JamesWest]

If Perry St. is the present day E. 24th St, then it looks like the yellow box is adjacent to the present day Cleveland State University. In the purple box, it looks like Sibley Ave is now Carnegie, which is a major east-west artery.

In 1879, I think that Willson Street (now E. 55th) was Cleveland's eastern border, with Newburgh on Cleveland's east. The city of Newburgh no longer exists.

The prurple box is just north of the Outhwaite Housing projects, East Tech High School and the I-490 interchange, which I believe are all cotained in the magenta box. It is not the safest neighborhood in Cleveland.

Since the Brown box is the location of League Park, I think the Kennard Street Grounds could have been squeezed into the purple box, maybe in it's upper right corner.

In John Stark Bellamy's books about Cleveland, it sounds as if the area around Payne avenue was mostly vacant lots at the trun of the last century. That's close enough to indicate that the yellow may have been a park that had sandlot fields or maybe a small amusemsnt park (Maybe Luna Park?)

[JamesWest]

A few years ago, I was looking at the Cleveland Press from the era when my grandfathers were born (1912-1915) and came across a team called the Cleveland Spiders who were playing in 1912 or 1913 (maybe both) in the United States League, which I believe was an embyonic version of the Federal League. This version of the Spiders may have played at Kennard Park, if it still existed. I don't remember any reference to them playing at League Park.

[Ubiquitous]

According to Green Cathedrals the second the google map reveals the location of Kennard Park. In the lower right hand corner with 46th street on the left, Carnegie on the north, and cedar ave in the south. Or basically the purple box on the old time map.

[runningshoes]

Wow,

This was the very first thread I started when I joined BBF.

I didn't think it would ever see the light of day again.

Thanks for the great info, guys.

[RuthMayBond]

The city of Newburgh no longer exists.There is a Newburgh Heights

<In John Stark Bellamy's books about Cleveland>

We worked for the same organization

[Ubiquitous]

Speaking of Newburgh, that area actually had a ballpark. Originally called Beyerle's Park. This might very well of been the park used by USL in 1912 at which point it was called Washington Park.

I have no idea when it was last used, the last reference for it was in 1930.

[RuthMayBond]

Speaking of Newburgh, that area actually had a ballpark. Originally called Beyerle's Park. This might very well of been the park used by USL in 1912 at which point it was called Washington Park.
.THAT's the one I think that had 150,000 attendance at a game once :eek:

[Ubiquitous]

Doubt it since the reports have it as a small stadium. Secondly in all of its history only one "major league" game was played there. An American Association game in 1888 or so. I think it was mostly used for minor league teams or for town teams. The negro leagues used it every so often in the 20's though, and about 1927 is the last we hear of it in terms upper levels of baseball.

[RuthMayBond]

Speaking of Newburgh, that area actually had a ballpark. Originally called Beyerle's Park. This might very well of been the park used by USL in 1912 at which point it was called Washington Park.

I have no idea when it was last used, the last reference for it was in 1930.My info says Beyerle Park was in Geauga Lake (even closer to my house) so it has nothing to do with present-day Newburgh Heights.
As to my other goof, the ~150,000 attendance was a municipal league game at Cleveland's Brookside Stadium on 9/20/1914.

[JamesWest]

There is a Newburgh Heights



Newburgh was a separate entity. At one point in the 19th century, Newburgh was the largest city in Cuyahoga County.

[JamesWest]

THAT's the one I think that had 150,000 attendance at a game once :eek:

That game was at Brookside Park.

[JamesWest]

Speaking of Newburgh, that area actually had a ballpark. Originally called Beyerle's Park. This might very well of been the park used by USL in 1912 at which point it was called Washington Park.

I have no idea when it was last used, the last reference for it was in 1930.

There was also a ballpark in Collinwood where the Naps played some Sunday games. This was before Collinwood was incorporated into Cleveland. I think that Newburgh was completely incorporated into Cleveland and broken up into suburbs by 1912.

Do you have a street location for Beyerle's Park?

[RuthMayBond]

That game was at Brookside Park.Like in post 11?

[JamesWest]

THAT's the one I think that had 150,000 attendance at a game once :eek:

That single game nearly outdrew the Naps entire 1914 season.

[JamesWest]

Like in post 11?

I don't believe that there was ever a place called Brookside Stadium.

[RuthMayBond]

I don't believe that there was ever a place called Brookside Stadium.I gotta get better sources :(

[JamesWest]

According to Green Cathedrals the second the google map reveals the location of Kennard Park. In the lower right hand corner with 46th street on the left, Carnegie on the north, and cedar ave in the south. Or basically the purple box on the old time map.

If that's the case, then the location of that ballpark wasn't far from the majority of Cleveland's Torso Murders.

I haven't been by that area in a while, but I think part of that land is taken up by the City Mission now. That's a pretty blighted area.

[Ubiquitous]

There was also a ballpark in Collinwood where the Naps played some Sunday games. This was before Collinwood was incorporated into Cleveland. I think that Newburgh was completely incorporated into Cleveland and broken up into suburbs by 1912.

Do you have a street location for Beyerle's Park?


The book claims it was in Newburgh Heights.

Leftfield (SE) Sykora Street, Third Base (NE) Independence RD (running from NW to SE) and Hugo Ave (running SW to NE), Home Plate (N) Beyerle st, First Base (NW) Hugo Brick Plant, Right Field (SW) just outside of Cleveland city limits.

[JamesWest]

The book claims it was in Newburgh Heights.

Leftfield (SE) Sykora Street, Third Base (NE) Independence RD (running from NW to SE) and Hugo Ave (running SW to NE), Home Plate (N) Beyerle st, First Base (NW) Hugo Brick Plant, Right Field (SW) just outside of Cleveland city limits.

Independence Rd runs thriugh the Slavic Village section of Cleveland into Newbugh Hts and IIRC there is a small park around there. Those other streets don't ring a bell, though.

If one of those streets is now Harvard Ave, the ballpark may have been near what is now the Alcoa plant.

[Ubiquitous]

That game was at Brookside Park.


According to this book the October 10, 1915 game at Brookside park was the highest attended baseball game in America at 100,000 people. Though 2 other baseball games topped it, one in Australia and one in Berlin.

The Cleveland game was a semipro national semi-final between Omaha Panhandlers and Cleveland White Auto.

[JamesWest]

According to this book the October 10, 1915 game at Brookside park was the highest attended baseball game in America at 100,000 people. Though 2 other baseball games topped it, one in Australia and one in Berlin.

The Cleveland game was a semipro national semi-final between Omaha Panhandlers and Cleveland White Auto.

The Elgin Restaraunt at the corner of Pearl and Memphis, near Brookside Park was decorated with a picture of that game. When I first saw it as a kid, it looked like there was about a half million people there.

[Ubiquitous]

That game reminds of something in Chicago. The all-time attendance record at Soldier Field in Chicago was set in the late 30's. Do you by whom? It was set by a bunch of fans that came out to see two rival catholic high school football teams player each other.

You look around the web and I believe they list a Notre Dame game as the highest, so perhaps it wasn't but from what I have heard from people at that game there was well over 100,000 people there to see a high school football game.

[JamesWest]

The Brookside Park game is kind of mind-boggling in one other respect. At that time, that area of Cleveland wasn't easily accesible form the mosre populous east side. I believe that in that period there was only one major bridge (the infamous Centrel Viaduct) connecting the east side and west side of Cleveland. Brookside Park is located in the most southern section of the west side. It now contains the Cleveland zoo, and is near where the Drew Carey Show took place (in the Old Brooklyn section of Cleveland). In 1915, many of those people who went to that game probably had quite a difficult commute to and from the game.

[RuthMayBond]

Newburgh was a separate entity. At one point in the 19th century, Newburgh was the largest city in Cuyahoga County.If Newburgh was in Cuyahoga County, it had nothing to do with anything in Geauga Lake unless that area changed tremendously

[RuthMayBond]

Brookside Park is located in the most southern section of the west side. It now contains the Cleveland zooI used to work right by there until my company built a new building

[cnp3]

If Newburgh was in Cuyahoga County, it had nothing to do with anything in Geauga Lake unless that area changed tremendously
Newburgh's borders were roughly... the Cuyahoga river to the west, to Lee Road on the East, to Carnegie (northeast) and Shaker (northwest) to the north and roughly 480 to the south. It would have been a stretch to head east to Geauga for sure!

[cnp3]

The book claims it was in Newburgh Heights.

Leftfield (SE) Sykora Street, Third Base (NE) Independence RD (running from NW to SE) and Hugo Ave (running SW to NE), Home Plate (N) Beyerle st, First Base (NW) Hugo Brick Plant, Right Field (SW) just outside of Cleveland city limits.
Every one of these roads still exists and Sykora/Independence/Hugo/Beyerle form a city block still to this day

http://www.cnp3.com/maps/beyerle.JPG

[Ubiquitous]

If those are still the same streets in the same place that is one weirdly shaped field. They must of moved those roads slightly. If third base is at the corner of Hugo and Independence at home plate is on Beyerle st, it is awfully hard for Sykora to be left field and for it to still make sense.

Perhaps if Beyerle was north of Independence and not south it would make sense but I can't see how it makes sense as it is now.

[cnp3]

Here's my 1892 map

http://www.cnp3.com/maps/beyerle2.JPG

And a 1908 map

http://www.cnp3.com/maps/beyerle3.JPG

[Ubiquitous]

Well that just throws me further for a loop. Right field is just out of city limits they say. Beyerle which is home plate has several streets between it and third base at Hugo and Independence and I still can't figure out how sykora would be LF.

It has to be a typo on the books part. Beyerle is not north of any of the roads that it claims it should be.

[Ubiquitous]

I found a reference to Beyerle Park in which it mentions a street railway system on Wilson AVe that ran from Scovill to Beyerle Park. That was put in place in 1883.

[Ubiquitous]

Here is some more info

A newfound relative of mine shared some memories that he had
of this park as his parents and grandparents lived on Beyerle Road. It
was originally called Forest City Park and was down in the valley. Now,
the park that is up on higher land is known as Washington Park.

He mentioned that at the bottom of the ravine behind Beyerle Road, there
was Forest City Park. There was a huge lake down there where they had
boating, rollerskating, a ballroom for dancing, and a beer hall. He said
that they called it "Hooper's Pond" and that they used to catch bluegills
there. This was an amusement park owned by the Humphrey family until the
late 19th century. This family closed Forest City Park and they later
owned Euclid Beach Park. But the park existed until at least 1930, not
as a park, but as a dump. The city traded the land that was Forest City
Park to the Steel Mill. The Steel mill used it for dumping their slag or
gravel and the steel mill gave other land to the city for a park
(currently the land that is Washington Park on E. 49th in Newburgh Hts.)
There was a trolley that ran on E. 49th street and there was a
turnaround on Sykora Ave. That's how the people from further north came
to this park. There was also Rusty Creek which was located at the end of
Fleet Avenue. The canal was also down there and people would swim in it.
There is a history of the park available, probably written by John
Grabowski at the WRHS as far as my relative can remember.

[cnp3]

Here is some more info
Good stuff.

Washington park is indeed due south of that - and that faded green line in the second map is streetcar service. - if you look close you can see that there's a turnaround at Sykora and Beyerle

if you want to see that rand mcnally map i keep popping up, the entire thing is at this link (http://www.cnp3.com/maps/cleveland.jpg)

You can find rail maps at http://www.railsandtrails.com

[cnp3]

If you don't feel like looking and downloading map viewers - here's a 1924 map of the area that gives the best look at what you're talking about

http://www.cnp3.com/maps/washingtonpark.JPG

[JamesWest]

If those are still the same streets in the same place that is one weirdly shaped field. They must of moved those roads slightly. If third base is at the corner of Hugo and Independence at home plate is on Beyerle st, it is awfully hard for Sykora to be left field and for it to still make sense.

Perhaps if Beyerle was north of Independence and not south it would make sense but I can't see how it makes sense as it is now.

I can't visualize the field from the dimensions given. Maybe it was in that cloverleaf marked Beyerle on the 1892 map. That was in Newburgh Hts. The streets named in the book are in Cleveland. That's a neughborhood that looks like it was cut off from Slavic Village by I-77.

[Calif_Eagle]

To go back to the famous 1915 semi-pro game for a moment, there is also a famous picture of the game (alluded to above by Mr. West) & the large crowd surrounding it. I am wondering if this picture could somehow be fed into a computer, or at least the outline of all the shapes (people) in it. Then, if some type of software or other technique exists to provide an approximate count of the people at the game. (at least those in the picture) If so, then a fairly accurate estimated count could be obtained, with those areas behind the camera extrapolated. I have heard over the years many different estimates of that crowd's size & just wonder if modern science could answer, or at least come very close to saying how many people were there that day. Does anyone have some insight into this?

[Ubiquitous]

start counting . . . .
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/pan/6a29000/6a29400/6a29457r.jpg

[Ubiquitous]

AS for guessing, I guess you could probably do some rough back of the envelope calculations. Figure out the square footage of the area then divide by the square footage you think an average person would have taken up back in 1915. Sounds like a college study to me. Get a couple of frats together get them out on a hill see how much square footage X amount of college kids take up. Apply to what is known of the Brookside park area and presto you got yourself an estimate.

[Calif_Eagle]

Fantastic picture Ubiquitous! I havent seen it for years but growing up in Cleveland I did see it, I think the Press or PD once printed it when doing a retrospective piece on the game. You are surely correct in that you might get a quick and dirty crowd estimate with your technique. Cant help but believe there isnt a computer based way to do the same thing much faster. Maybe the CIA or NSA has the software to do it... :) Anyway, thanx again for a look at that shot... amazing crowd to be sure, especially for the day. The Indians had to be wondering what they could do to get a crowd like that lol

[Ubiquitous]

You could talk to a civil engineer he probably has the software. Though again you would have to give him the dimensions and layout of the park. All the satellites do is give a more exact size of the sprawl, and then the engineers plug in their formula. The satellites and the programs are not really couting each head, but doing an estimate using rather basic math. Like I said above if you have the dimensions practically any engineer prof or craftsmen can do it. Probably even your fire department since they ratios as well.

[RuthMayBond]

Fantastic picture Ubiquitous! I havent seen it for years but growing up in Cleveland I did see it, I think the Press or PD once printed it when doing a retrospective piece on the game. You are surely correct in that you might get a quick and dirty crowd estimate with your technique. Cant help but believe there isnt a computer based way to do the same thing much faster. Maybe the CIA or NSA has the software to do it... :) Anyway, thanx again for a look at that shot... amazing crowd to be sure, especially for the day. The Indians had to be wondering what they could do to get a crowd like that lolI'd like to thank Ubiq as well. The Tribe's ten cent beer didn't even draw that many :laugh

[elmer]

RF - 325'

CF - 430'

LF - 285'

Back Stop - 90'

Go To: http://cplorg.cdmhost.com/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/p4014coll24&CISOPTR=44&REC=2

Click on Plate no. 5 zoom in on light green patch in upper right corner

Another old park can be found here: http://cplorg.cdmhost.com/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/p4014coll24&CISOPTR=238&REC=1

click on plate #26

Tip: do not zoom too closely. It will require exiting and starting over. Once zoomed in there is no going back

[RoastedPeanut]

AS for guessing, I guess you could probably do some rough back of the envelope calculations. Figure out the square footage of the area then divide by the square footage you think an average person would have taken up back in 1915. Sounds like a college study to me. Get a couple of frats together get them out on a hill see how much square footage X amount of college kids take up. Apply to what is known of the Brookside park area and presto you got yourself an estimate.

Or you could just read the

Attendance: 118000

on the picture..

[EdTarbusz]

I found a reference to Beyerle Park in which it mentions a street railway system on Wilson AVe that ran from Scovill to Beyerle Park. That was put in place in 1883.

For what its worth, Willson Avenue is now known as East 55th St. In 1883, that was Cleveland's easternmost border.

[Ubiquitous]

Or you could just read the

Attendance: 118000

on the picture..

Which wouldn't answer the question I was attempting to answer.

[RoastedPeanut]

Which wouldn't answer the question I was attempting to answer.

Well.. If everybody occupies an area of four square feet, and you have at least four lengths to the field..

[Calif_Eagle]

Or you could just read the

Attendance: 118000

on the picture..

The attendance is clearly just an estimate, and I have read in the past that it may be wildly off. There is no real "stadium" in the picture and I am sure there were no turnstiles or actual tickets sold.

[Eyeshade]

I assume that the discussion is about "the photo" of the really, really big crowd at the amateur game with White Motors.
There was no attendance taken, most folks didn't have any kind of ticket and the field is in a natural amphithetear at Brookside Park, which is part of the Cleveland Metroparks system. Most folks agree(and most estimates say) that the crowd was in excess of 100k that day. I work at the zoo next door to the park and there is no doubt that the site could have held that many folks there and still could even though it is laid out differently now. Look at Google Earth and search under Cleveland Metroparks Zoo. The park/ballpark area is adjacent to the zoo. It is now called the "Brookside Event Site". Cleveland used to love it's amater ball, as did all of America.

[PurpleMustReign]

I'd like to thank Ubiq as well. The Tribe's ten cent beer didn't even draw that many :laugh


What I think is funny is the people on the right that are practically clinging to the steep hill to watch the game!

[RoastedPeanut]

I assume that the discussion is about "the photo" of the really, really big crowd at the amateur game with White Motors.
There was no attendance taken, most folks didn't have any kind of ticket and the field is in a natural amphithetear at Brookside Park, which is part of the Cleveland Metroparks system. Most folks agree(and most estimates say) that the crowd was in excess of 100k that day. I work at the zoo next door to the park and there is no doubt that the site could have held that many folks there and still could even though it is laid out differently now. Look at Google Earth and search under Cleveland Metroparks Zoo. The park/ballpark area is adjacent to the zoo. It is now called the "Brookside Event Site". Cleveland used to love it's amater ball, as did all of America.

Ya' know.. I've had clinical at metro on the other side of W 25th and I never realized that I was just that close to an old ballpark.. Odd.. I still want to take a trek out to League Park and do some panoramics..

[Eyeshade]

Yeah, just go during daylight hours and let us know when the long awaited renovation starts:clapping.
It's hard to imagine what Brookside looked like before I-71 was built, but it was truly a huge place to watch a ballgame, dwarfing old Municipal Stadium.

[chip]

Here are some other photos of Brookside Park.
The bottom three pics are from 1914, 1915 and 1922
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/telemudd/BrooksidePark1.jpg