THE pitching thread [Archive]

XFactor

07-23-2005, 02:10 PM

Long Toss = Helps, especially in the pre-season and occasionally during the season.

Weighted balls, and even more generically overloading OR undloading = I don't see the benefit and the negatives outweigh them anyway.

Pushing off the rubber = Even some who think then do it don't and some that think they don't, do. I think this one is individual to the pitcher.

Long toss helps a pitcher build up intensity before going onto a mound for the pre game throwing, but it in no way helps build velocity for pitching, control, or stamina.

Weighted balls have been around for over 30 years. If they honestly worked then everyone in the Majors would be using them. They aren't, and for good reason. If all of these competing activities worked...long toss, weighted balls, weight training or endless drills then baseball pitching would have improved markedly over the past decade or so in performance and reducing the risk of injuries.

I see no evidence that performance is going up and injuries are going down.

All you have to do is ask yourself if you are seeing more successful pitchers being developed every year using current baseball coaching practice principles. Are they? No...

And there is only 1 successful major league person that I am aware of that drops down and pushes off the rubber and thats Roger Clemens. Now I wouldn't teach anyone else to do that. That is his style and it works for him, but what is to say that it will work for some 6'8 240 pound kid. What you want to do is load up your weight on your back leg, then pretend that some small kid is pushing your back hip, which will in turn make you lead with your front hip. You want to lead with your front hip. (If you lead with your shoulder then that is whats called rushing, you won't get a good weight transfer). Then once you've landed on your braced front leg, and your throwing, you want your foot to "squish the bug" and peel off the rubber. You want your back foot/toe to be in contact with the ground through ball release, otherwise it's like throwing to a moving target.

"In order to do the "push" kids would get down low collapsing their back legs or just drive forward with their front shoulder - both velocity and energy killers. So there would be less velocity and more stress on the arm.

There has always been a better way so that the pitcher created more energy to go into the pitch while producing a longer stride.

Getting off the back leg from the push by the "little man" requires getting the weight over a firm posting leg and staying tall only for an instant because once the pitcher feels his weight fully loaded over his bacl leg he can move off of it leading with his front hip.

All you have to do is feel a connection between the back leg and the back hip. Then when the little man pushes you off quickly the leg does not collapse. If you stay over the back leg too long it can collapse.

But the key is to start shifting the weight earlier just as the leg starts down out of balance and depending on your wind-up some major league pitchers start shifting their weight before their leg reaches its highest point. Remember they have better control of their body than a youth or high school pitcher.

This is not going to be quite as easy for a LL pitcher but get them started early and you will find that they can do it as well. In fact, it will feel even more natural to them to shift their weight earlier than later.

If you can explain it to them in this way they can create a picture of what you want them to do. You can show them Matt Kinney and let them see how he leads with his front hip and how he starts off his back hip as his leg starts down.

As they get stronger they will be able to do it better and more under control.

The sole focus must be on the front hip leading (and the front elbow) as they move toward the target. Forget about the front leg and foot. That is what is getting some in trouble.

Just drive the front hip straight ahead. The hip will deposit the foot on the line. You can make adjustments from there." -Dick Mills

WonderMonkey

07-23-2005, 02:37 PM

How did I know Dick Mills would be brought into this. I would have put $5 on it.

Anyway..... I've got a tourney game to go to and will give some thoughts later.

DarterBall

07-23-2005, 08:50 PM

Long toss helps a pitcher build up intensity before going onto a mound for the pre game throwing, but it in no way helps build velocity for pitching, control, or stamina.

Not true, young Luke. How can an exercise increase arm strength and not build velocity? Anybody who tells you that long toss does not strengthen the arm is just plain wrong.

I see no evidence that performance is going up and injuries are going down.

All you have to do is ask yourself if you are seeing more successful pitchers being developed every year using current baseball coaching practice principles. Are they? No...

I'll take this one, as well. So, you don't think more successful pitchers are being developed? It's actually an argument that anyone would be hard pressed to win. You know why? Expansion. There are WAY more players in the major leagues now than 45 years ago. Would you believe there used to be only 16 teams? Do the math. I believe that's half as many players. THEREFOR, it was harder to make the big leagues. If you were to take the top 400 players in major league baseball, they might just compare favorably to the 400 that were playing in 1960. Okay, that's one argument......

Here's another...

Before 1948, HALF OF THE MOST TALENTED PLAYERS COULDN'T PLAY! They weren't allowed to. Today's players are the best of the best, not half.

I think it's too hard to argue if they are or aren't better now.

And there is only 1 successful major league person......... deposit the foot on the line. You can make adjustments from there." -Dick Mills

X, it does my heart good to see a young man so passionate about the game. You are a bit misguided, however. I wouldn't profess Dick Mills as the end all and be all of pitching "gurus". He has some good drills and some of his fundamental stuff is good, but the question remains, if he were so good, why couldn't his son throw strikes?

WonderMonkey

07-23-2005, 09:42 PM

I feel long-toss is a great exercise to strengthen and increase velocity. That, coupled with mechanics to take advantage of the strength produces some extra velocity. This is one of those things that I go along with the vast majority of pitching coaches that use long toss for that purpose. Now if you happen to be at or about your upper limit, long toss will help keep you there.

And after a while I just stopped reading Dick Mills. The drill are good as stated above but some things I just don't believe.

XFactor

07-23-2005, 11:18 PM

Not true, young Luke. How can an exercise increase arm strength and not build velocity? Anybody who tells you that long toss does not strengthen the arm is just plain wrong.

Oh really? So velocity comes from the arm then? Go out in the outfield and with both feet on the ground, throw the ball. Now go get a running start and throw the ball. Which will go farther, faster, I believe it'd be the one with more momentum. It's all about mechanics, then timing (which is rythem). Now see this is fun, because we can debate all this stuff. There is a difference between throwing long toss and throwing on the mound. A big one.

You know, this past fall/winter I pitched tuesday, friday, and sunday. Probably around 100 pitches each time. (Started in late october, ended in mid march) My velocity was a constant 83-85 MPH and my control was veryyy veryyy good. I also found out that when I did long toss, I could throw a lot harder and a lot farther... hmmm, how cool is that eh? Maybe I can make a case for throwing off the mound will make you a better long tosser then right?

I'll take this one, as well. So, you don't think more successful pitchers are being developed? It's actually an argument that anyone would be hard pressed to win. You know why? Expansion. There are WAY more players in the major leagues now than 45 years ago. Would you believe there used to be only 16 teams? Do the math. I believe that's half as many players. THEREFOR, it was harder to make the big leagues. If you were to take the top 400 players in major league baseball, they might just compare favorably to the 400 that were playing in 1960. Okay, that's one argument......

Here's another...

Before 1948, HALF OF THE MOST TALENTED PLAYERS COULDN'T PLAY! They weren't allowed to. Today's players are the best of the best, not half.

I think it's too hard to argue if they are or aren't better now.

Yeah it's something to argue, and I don't really care how many people are getting better or worse.. all I know is I'm getting better and frankly thats all I care about

X, it does my heart good to see a young man so passionate about the game. You are a bit misguided, however. I wouldn't profess Dick Mills as the end all and be all of pitching "gurus". He has some good drills and some of his fundamental stuff is good, but the question remains, if he were so good, why couldn't his son throw strikes?

I'm pretty sure I didn't profess him as knowing everything. And if his son couldn't throw strikes... how did he make it up to AAA Rochester and sign a contract that was over a million dollars (I forget the exact amount, but it was over a million). What you may or may not know... an injury took his son out of baseball, hes trying to recover from it but I don't know if he is going to give baseball another try.. I know I would.

DYK over 80% of minor league pitchers go through at least one surgery involving their pitching arm. You want to know why? Bad mechanics... sure some are freak accidents but most are from bad mechanics... so, go figure..

WonderMonkey

07-24-2005, 08:09 AM

I would say that anybody that gets to AA or above is pretty darn good. Single A isn't so special but the AA and certainly AAA gets a few bows from me.

WonderMonkey

07-24-2005, 08:13 AM

DarterBall

07-24-2005, 08:21 AM

Oh really? So velocity comes from the arm then? Go out in the outfield and with both feet on the ground, throw the ball. Now go get a running start and throw the ball. Which will go farther, faster, I believe it'd be the one with more momentum. It's all about mechanics, then timing (which is rythem). Now see this is fun, because we can debate all this stuff. There is a difference between throwing long toss and throwing on the mound. A big one.

Your argument doesn't address the issue. Your example doesn't bring in the factor of arm strength. You are ABSOLULTELY correct that you would throw harder with more momentum. If two young men of equal arm strength threw and one threw from dead stop and one threw with the momentum of a running start, the one with a running start would throw farther. But if two players threw with the same MOMENTUM, and one had more arm strength then he would also throw farther, right? What does that prove? Nothing, because BOTH are factors in throwing harder. Lots of the things you have said in this whole debate are correct. I don't know, though, if you have a good idea of the big picture of how all of these things work together. Timing, rhythm and mechanics are VITAL to improving your fastball, just as you said. Throwing as much as you did off the mound will improve your arm strength, so yes, IT WOULD MAKE YOU A BETTER LONG TOSSER. But that helps to prove my point. If you want to throw harder, you have to do it by THROWING.
Long toss WILL improve your arm strength. I won't argue that with you any more.

I'm pretty sure I didn't profess him as knowing everything. And if his son couldn't throw strikes... how did he make it up to AAA Rochester and sign a contract that was over a million dollars (I forget the exact amount, but it was over a million). What you may or may not know... an injury took his son out of baseball, hes trying to recover from it but I don't know if he is going to give baseball another try.. I know I would.

DYK over 80% of minor league pitchers go through at least one surgery involving their pitching arm. You want to know why? Bad mechanics... sure some are freak accidents but most are from bad mechanics... so, go figure..

Ryan Mills was 27 last year when he pitched his final year in pro ball. What that means is, if he had an injury, it didn't keep him out of the big leagues. The chances of him making it were slim already. Did he have a problem throwing strikes? He averaged 5+ BB per 9 innings over his minor league career. How he made AAA Rochester? I have no idea. His career record was 17-40 with a 5.79 ERA. Did he have an an injury caused by bad mechanics? That would be ironic since his Pops makes his living teaching mechanics.

XFactor

07-24-2005, 12:42 PM

Yes that would define irony right there..
How he made it to AAA? Who knows... but he did get a huge million+ dollar contract.... Sure he didn't succeed in the majors and what not but... hes a millionaire.
You are 100000000000% correct on if you want to get better at throwing, you throw more.. just like if you want to get better at hitting you hit more.

My friend doesn't push off the rubber, and next year he'll be drafted out of high school barring he doesn't get injured. I don't... I don't know anyone who teaches to push off the rubber anymore... not even the stupid pitching instructers anymore ^_^ No offense to them

E.Banks#14

07-24-2005, 12:50 PM

"Define irony: a bunch of idiots dancing around on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash." - Steve Buscemi in Con Air (Sweet Home Alabama plays in the background.)

XFactor

07-24-2005, 12:58 PM

Thats nice but please stay on topic ;\

With that said, yeah I had the same thing running through my head when I was talking about irony

E.Banks#14

07-24-2005, 01:12 PM

I too know no one that pushes off the rubber.

DarterBall

07-24-2005, 01:51 PM

Yes that would define irony right there..
How he made it to AAA? Who knows... but he did get a huge million+ dollar contract... all from listening to his dad. Sure he didn't succeed in the majors and what not but... hes a millionaire.
You are 100000000000% correct on if you want to get better at throwing, you throw more.. just like if you want to get better at hitting you hit more.

My friend doesn't push off the rubber, and next year he'll be drafted out of high school barring he doesn't get injured. I don't... I don't know anyone who teaches to push off the rubber anymore... not even the stupid pitching instructers anymore ^_^ No offense to them

I couldn't agree more on pushing off the rubber. Some can do it, but it takes tremendous athleticism. Clemens does it, as you said. In the previous era, Tom Seaver was the epitome of "drop and drive". I teach a controlled fall from the balance point.

DarterBall

07-24-2005, 02:01 PM

Who knows... but he did get a huge million+ dollar contract... all from listening to his dad. Sure he didn't succeed in the majors and what not but... hes a millionaire.

Two points to make and I'm done with the Ryan Mills thing. One is, if you're 6'3" or more, left handed, and throw 93+, you are going to be a millionaire. It doesn't matter if you can hit the right side of a barn. Now, with that being said, Mills was a tremendous prospect and recovered from an AWFUL injury at Arizona State. He was struck in the face with a line drive, in his first collegiate start, I think. And maybe his dad had a BIG impact. The problem with listening to gurus is you have to have some knowledge of the mechanics yourself. Maybe when he got away from dad, he had problems. As you said, who knows.

Second point - Don't judge people by how much money they've gotten for any certain thing. Baseball, like life, is not fair. Some VERY talented young men have not made big money, or even been drafted, for that matter. Except for a small percentage of people who have EVER played it, baseball is a game that will break your heart. Only a select few get to choose when to stop playing it. The rest of us end up heartbroken. We still love it. Some of us choose to coach just so we can stay in the game, keep wearing the uniform, and hopefully help others attain their dreams. Most of us in the game could make LOTS more money elsewhere. There's nothing like the thrill, though, of putting on new home whites, listening to the National Anthem and then watching the first pitch of a new season. It makes you feel like you'll live forever.

TwelveGage

07-25-2005, 01:03 AM

I agree completely with those that said Long Toss helps the pitcher. How could it not? What if those two people, of equal arm strength were throwing from the same point. The one from a stand still let his ball go at the perfect release point, and the player from a run let go too late and throws his into the dirt? Alot goes into throwing a ball, and how could arm strength not be attributed to it? Long Toss DOES build arm strength, it did for me. The key to pitching hard AND effective is combining that arm strength with solid mechanics, which is probably a leading factor in your "not as many good pitchers" debate. Too many pitchers want to just throw hard, and forget about mechanics.

wogdoggy

07-25-2005, 07:39 AM

This study may prove benificial to some in regards to the value of weighted baseballs in developing arm strength. The University of Hawaii did a study that involved 45 highschool pitchers and 180 university pitchers. Three workouts a week over a 10 week period were used. The specifics minus distance were used. The control group used only a standard 5oz ball. The second group used a standard 5oz and heavy 6oz ball for five weeks and then used a standard 5oz and light 4oz ball for te second five weeks. The third group trained with a standard, heavy and light ball simultaneously through the 10 week period.
Each workout consisted of 66 pitches. The control using only standard balls. The second group threw 11 standard, 44 heavy, 11 standard the first five weeks and then 11 standard, 44 light, 11 standard. The third group threw 11 standard, 22 heavy, 22 light, 11 standard. At the end of the 10 week session the first group showed no improvement in velocity while both the second and third groups showed 6 to 8 percent increases in velocity.
It was also noted that while throwing heavier balls only,the result was an increase in strength but a draw back was the fine tuning of the nervous system to coordinate a strong but slow movement.
By incorporating the light weight balls the quicker than usual arm movement taught the players nervous systems to recruit muscular activity very quickly. The concept behind throwing heavy first and then light is based on developing shoulder strength before moving into the quicker than usual phase of the arms motion.

:clapping :lookitup

WonderMonkey

07-25-2005, 04:29 PM

Before I let my son do the heavier/weighted ball thing I'd have to have someone who has instructed in it for a while help me out. I can see the benifits in theory but of course theory doesn't always equate to practice.

I pushed off the rubber. Not a drop and drive but right at the end of the "fall" I would give a nudge. I'm sure that's not what we are talking about though.

WonderMonkey

07-25-2005, 04:31 PM

Two points to make and I'm done with the Ryan Mills thing. One is, if you're 6'3" or more, left handed, and throw 93+, you are going to be a millionaire. It doesn't matter if you can hit the right side of a barn.

Not true. The minors are littered with people that throw 93 or so that didn't sign for much and don't make much more. Hell personally I threw 93 and only made it to Single A with just a small signing bonus. More are out there like that.

DarterBall

07-25-2005, 06:17 PM

Not true. The minors are littered with people that throw 93 or so that didn't sign for much and don't make much more. Hell personally I threw 93 and only made it to Single A with just a small signing bonus. More are out there like that.

Are you left handed? Read the whole thing. Six three or above, 93 or above. LEFT HANDED. The MAJOR LEAGUES are not littered with guys like this. I know the minors aren't. The majority of guys who claim to throw 90+ don't. At least not consistantly.

XFactor

07-25-2005, 06:36 PM

I'm left handed ^_^ Aren't I the lucky one eh?

DarterBall

07-25-2005, 09:06 PM

Over 6'3"?

XFactor

07-25-2005, 09:52 PM

Nawww, I'm 5'11

TannerLorenz

07-26-2005, 02:21 AM

Oh really? So velocity comes from the arm then? Go out in the outfield and with both feet on the ground, throw the ball. Now go get a running start and throw the ball. Which will go farther, faster, I believe it'd be the one with more momentum. It's all about mechanics, then timing (which is rythem). Now see this is fun, because we can debate all this stuff. There is a difference between throwing long toss and throwing on the mound. A big one.

You know, this past fall/winter I pitched tuesday, friday, and sunday. Probably around 100 pitches each time. (Started in late october, ended in mid march) My velocity was a constant 83-85 MPH and my control was veryyy veryyy good. I also found out that when I did long toss, I could throw a lot harder and a lot farther... hmmm, how cool is that eh? Maybe I can make a case for throwing off the mound will make you a better long tosser then right?

Yeah it's something to argue, and I don't really care how many people are getting better or worse.. all I know is I'm getting better and frankly thats all I care about

I'm pretty sure I didn't profess him as knowing everything. And if his son couldn't throw strikes... how did he make it up to AAA Rochester and sign a contract that was over a million dollars (I forget the exact amount, but it was over a million). What you may or may not know... an injury took his son out of baseball, hes trying to recover from it but I don't know if he is going to give baseball another try.. I know I would.

DYK over 80% of minor league pitchers go through at least one surgery involving their pitching arm. You want to know why? Bad mechanics... sure some are freak accidents but most are from bad mechanics... so, go figure.. haha u make me laugh man, ight first ur right, mechanics make a difference, but what ur sayin is that if u have good mechanics u will throw hard, thats like sayin a weak 10 year old with perfect mechanics wil throw heat, not true, second, long toss streches ur arm out before games, leading to more velocity, third weighted balls make the ball lighter and easier to throw off speed pitches and add mph to ur fastball, and mlb playas use them, im out

TannerLorenz

07-26-2005, 02:27 AM

wogdoggy

07-26-2005, 05:34 AM

wonder monkey ,,,is it really a push or is it just weight pivoting on the ball of your rear leg..it feels like a push but is it?

WonderMonkey

07-26-2005, 08:26 AM

wonder monkey ,,,is it really a push or is it just weight pivoting on the ball of your rear leg..it feels like a push but is it?

Not sure. I'd have to video it and watch. I feel as if I give a slight nudge but it may not be. As I am old and decrepit now I'm afraid if I try to pitch for real I'd snap something in half.

WonderMonkey

07-26-2005, 08:29 AM

Are you left handed? Read the whole thing. Six three or above, 93 or above. LEFT HANDED. The MAJOR LEAGUES are not littered with guys like this. I know the minors aren't. The majority of guys who claim to throw 90+ don't. At least not consistantly.

Ahh... my apologies. I'm a stinking righty.

Ursa Major

08-02-2005, 07:32 PM

It probably isn't much of a push, if any. According to a book I've got on pitching by former MLB pitching coach Bob Cluck:

To the naked eye, it seems that pitchers push off the rubber with their back foot. This apparent observation formed the basis for pitching instruction for decades. But mechanics guru Lyle Olsen, former head baseball coach at San Diego State University, effectively disproved this long-held theory with the aid of high speed film in 1971. A pitcher's rear leg bends at an angle that remains constant until the ball is released. If there were a push, the leg would straighten or extend. The truth is that the violent rotation of the hips and trunk "pulls" the back foot off the rubber. When you try to push off the rubber, it simply causes you to rush the delivery and throw uphill.

chisox2k5

08-02-2005, 09:38 PM

THE BOTTOM LINE ON PITCHING IS:

1) Good mechanics
2) Core strength
3) Leg strength
4) Arm strength
5) Mental Approach
6) Dedication
7) Genetics

Its that simple

chisox2k5

08-02-2005, 09:40 PM

sschirmer

08-03-2005, 02:34 PM

yea im 6'6, 210 lbs., and i throw 88 mph and have a sick slider and curveball, right handed, my mechanics are perfect, my dad told me them and he played mlb ball and the best mechanics are have a high leg kick, put weight on ur back leg, shift ur weight as ur pushing off as hard as u can and throw out in front of u body, and follow through

First of all, oh forget it, I don't even know where to start with this post.

I can only speak from personal experience, but a weighted ball helped me tremendously in getting over my first rotator cuff tear. Actually, it was my only actual rotator cuff tear, as my second injury was a labral tear, and the one that finally got me to hang up my spikes this past fall was three cartilage tears in my left shoulder, so I do know a little about the injuries pitching can cause. While the weighted ball did help with my initial recovery, I do believe that continuous use of it also contributed do my later injuries. Rather ironic, I know. I've found long toss to be nothing but positive. My Orthapedist agrees, for whatever that's worth.

XFactor

08-03-2005, 04:34 PM

First of all, oh forget it, I don't even know where to start with this post.

I can only speak from personal experience, but a weighted ball helped me tremendously in getting over my first rotator cuff tear. Actually, it was my only actual rotator cuff tear, as my second injury was a labral tear, and the one that finally got me to hang up my spikes this past fall was three cartilage tears in my left shoulder, so I do know a little about the injuries pitching can cause. While the weighted ball did help with my initial recovery, I do believe that continuous use of it also contributed do my later injuries. Rather ironic, I know. I've found long toss to be nothing but positive. My Othapedist agrees, for whatever that's worth.

You know it's funny. I saw the quote of the day for brainy dictionary (the place where I looked up the word Orthopedist) and this is what it is. "There are lies, damned lies and statistics." - Mark Twain

Orthopedist (n.) One who prevents, cures, or remedies deformities, esp. in children.

Yes, cause you know he knows about baseball... I mean he has the science to back it up... I'm sure. Just the other day my dentist advised me to not throw off the mound and to throw flat ground and I should hold my breath in before I pitch... wow he knows everything *swoons*. Anyways, yeah... that is ironic that something you used because you thought it would help you actually ended the rest of your career. That just sucks. Even people who think they have good mechanics... doesn't necessarily mean they do. I mean, over... OVER 80% of the pitchers in the minors have had at least ONE (1) major arm surgery. That, my friends, is way too high. And thats from following all the hype that a lot of people spew out with little to no proof.
Something then, HAS GOT TO CHANGE. Or, you can continue to believe what you wish... there isn't much more I can do to convince you peeps ;\

sschirmer

08-03-2005, 04:45 PM

I'm not saying that it ended it for me. As I said earlier, I will admit that it helped me in the beginning, at a time when my arm had such pain I never thought I'd be able to pitch competetively again anyway. Who knows, I guess it was just a give and take.

DarterBall

08-03-2005, 07:40 PM

OVER 80% of the pitchers in the minors have had at least ONE (1) major arm surgery. That, my friends, is way too high. And thats from following all the hype that a lot of people spew out with little to no proof.
Something then, HAS GOT TO CHANGE. Or, you can continue to believe what you wish... there isn't much more I can do to convince you peeps ;\

Boy, you said a mouthful there. I would LOVE to see statistics on how many arm injuries there have been SINCE the five man rotation AND the 100 pitch count. It's my contention that most of our injuries are because kids/men don't throw enough.

chisox2k5

08-03-2005, 10:53 PM

XFactor

08-04-2005, 02:08 AM

Boy, you said a mouthful there. I would LOVE to see statistics on how many arm injuries there have been SINCE the five man rotation AND the 100 pitch count. It's my contention that most of our injuries are because kids/men don't throw enough.

I was told those stats from a retired Major League scout. And those are the most recent stats (he told me them this december). So... yeah. Take it as you will

mobile eggroll

08-04-2005, 01:37 PM

there is a difference in terminology when u say the words velocity, arm strength, and stamina.

velocity: how hard you throw

arm strength: how strong your arm is, (ie how much you can lift)

stamina: maintaining the same over a period or distance of time

arm strength does not correlate to velocity, i have seen many pitchers who have sinew-like arms and skinny as heck that throw harder then guys that workout regularly, example 2 pitchers on my high school team, 5'11 140 lb lefty throws 88-90, the 5'10 180 righty (_who si muscular in the arms an works out) throws 83-86. the lefty is lazy and never works out yet still manages to throw hard due to mechanics, the righty continually works out an both have about the same mechanics.

what i am trying to get at is that long toss does not improve velocity, the velocity is what you bring with you to a game, you may seem like you are throwing faster after improving your mechanics or throwing long toss but all mechanics and long toss did was bring out the extra speed you had, you didn't simpy develop more speed.

i've talked to 3 different pitching coachs, my high school coach, my rival high school coach, and dave lyan (sp?) at usc, and they said they can teach a guy mechanics, they can teach a guy a curveball, they can teach control, but they can't teach velocity. velocity is your unique thing and you either have it or you dont, good mechanics simply bring out the velocity in you. and for that reason i think that long toss probably helps more with your stamina then your actual throwing velocity

chisox2k5

08-04-2005, 08:18 PM

and for that reason i think that long toss probably helps more with your stamina then your actual throwing velocity

The more you long toss the farther you can throw the ball. The farther you throw the ball the faster you are throwing the ball (assuming same trajectories).

echy88

08-04-2005, 08:53 PM

As someone said earlier long toss does not add velocity to your throws. It does not make you suddenly throw harder. It just stretches your arm out so it can use its power efficiently.

XFactor

08-04-2005, 11:51 PM

The more you long toss the farther you can throw the ball. The farther you throw the ball the faster you are throwing the ball (assuming same trajectories).

Long toss is used for 2 reasons: arm strength and mechanics. It helps your arm strength in obvious ways, and it helps replicate the natural throwing motion.

Long toss is used to help build up intensity before you go on the mound to pitch, or to "keep the arm in shape" (so atrophy doesn't occur). It does not in no way help your velocity. As I said before, I threw off a mound 3 times a week (Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday) from late October - Mid March and when I finally started doing long toss, I found out I can throw harder and farther during long toss. So should I start telling people if they wanna be better at long tossing to throw off a mound

Okay listen. A NFL QB... does he take a football and see how far and long he throws it, and does he do that continuousley to "build more control and velocity" on his throws? No... so why would it be any different for a pitcher?

And long toss doesn't help pitching mechanics. They are 2 very seperate things... what are you smoking kiddo? T_T

chisox2k5

08-05-2005, 12:17 AM

Long toss is used to help build up intensity before you go on the mound to pitch, or to "keep the arm in shape" (so atrophy doesn't occur). It does not in no way help your velocity. As I said before, I threw off a mound 3 times a week (Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday) from late October - Mid March and when I finally started doing long toss, I found out I can throw harder and farther during long toss. So should I start telling people if they wanna be better at long tossing to throw off a mound

Okay listen. A NFL QB... does he take a football and see how far and long he throws it, and does he do that continuousley to "build more control and velocity" on his throws? No... so why would it be any different for a pitcher?

And long toss doesn't help pitching mechanics. They are 2 very seperate things... what are you smoking kiddo? T_T

First off throwing off a mound from October to Mid-March isnt smart. Throwing off a mound breaks down your mechanics and is more detrimental to your arm then throwing off flat ground.

Second you said it yourself, when you came back you could throw harder and farther. Long tossing will allow you to throw longer, which means you are throwing harder (if you say anything otherwise you are contradicting yourself), and when you get on a mound you will be throwing looser and easier. Your arm isnt going to know how fast it can go unless you take it to the limit in long toss. And throwing at maximum strength on flat ground will not wear your arm down like it will on the mound.

Third, long tossing helps to develope consistency and replicate the throwing motion.

Yes it is used to build up intensity before a game, but it is also valuable in other areas.

Long tossing does increase arm strength and arm speed, period... I dont know of ANYONE who says otherwise.

--------------------------

http://www.jaegersports.com/offseason.html

Long Toss and Pitchers
Because mechanics, release point and arm speed are such a major part of pitching we use our Long Toss program to work on these areas. More specifically, pitchers will be in a mechanically sound position on every throw. As pitchers learn how to stretch out (distance) correctly they will learn the importance of staying relaxed in their balance point. As pitchers learn how to pull down “through their stretch”, they will learn how to create a consistent release point without decelerating. This is the key to developing a consistent release point and generating arm speed. The consistency of a release point becomes even more crucial when we move on to our next drill, Grips and Rotation. This is because the consistency of off-speed pitches being in the zone are based on the ability to “finish” through your release point, and not decelerating.

Long Toss is based on two key principles - throwing through a “stretch” and staying mechanically sound. This will serve four major purposes: 1) Health - stretch and strengthen the smaller muscles of the arm, 2) Velocity -establish arm speed and finish, 3) Accuracy - develop a consistent release point, 4) Rhythm - sound and more fluid throwing mechanics.

------------------------
http://theacc.collegesports.com/sports/m-basebl/spec-rel/033105aae.html

The last thing is long toss. I believe the best way to improve arm strength is to get on a throwing program. This consists of progressively throwing as hard as you can for further and further distances. Over time the arm will get stronger.

-------------------------
http://www.usoc.org/12219_12315.htm

"The best exercise to increase your arm's strength is to play long toss with a partner. This doesn't mean to throw the ball as high as you can. It simply means to throw it as long (length) as you can by keeping the baseball on a line and not letting it hit the ground. I try to play long toss about three times a week."
-Kurt Ainsworth

----------------------
http://www.thesportscoach.com/preview/baseball/peterson_longtoss.cfm

"The primary goal of this long tossing program is to increase arm strength. We believe that will increase velocity as well as provide a maintenance program for the arm to help reduce possible injuries. Pitchers should also develop a better sense of rhythm and balance."
Rick Peterson

XFactor

08-05-2005, 02:37 AM

First off throwing off a mound from October to Mid-March isnt smart. Throwing off a mound breaks down your mechanics and is more detrimental to your arm then throwing off flat ground.

Second you said it yourself, when you came back you could throw harder and farther. Long tossing will allow you to throw longer, which means you are throwing harder (if you say anything otherwise you are contradicting yourself), and when you get on a mound you will be throwing looser and easier. Your arm isnt going to know how fast it can go unless you take it to the limit in long toss. And throwing at maximum strength on flat ground will not wear your arm down like it will on the mound.

I'll save this one for later... listen I know your a white sox fan and this is hard to understand... but I'll get back to you on this as I'm going to sleep soon.

Third, long tossing helps to develope consistency and replicate the throwing motion.

Yes it is used to build up intensity before a game, but it is also valuable in other areas.

Long tossing does increase arm strength and arm speed, period... I dont know of ANYONE who says otherwise.

--------------------------

http://www.jaegersports.com/offseason.html

Long Toss and Pitchers
Because mechanics, release point and arm speed are such a major part of pitching we use our Long Toss program to work on these areas. More specifically, pitchers will be in a mechanically sound position on every throw. As pitchers learn how to stretch out (distance) correctly they will learn the importance of staying relaxed in their balance point. As pitchers learn how to pull down “through their stretch”, they will learn how to create a consistent release point without decelerating. This is the key to developing a consistent release point and generating arm speed. The consistency of a release point becomes even more crucial when we move on to our next drill, Grips and Rotation. This is because the consistency of off-speed pitches being in the zone are based on the ability to “finish” through your release point, and not decelerating.

Long Toss is based on two key principles - throwing through a “stretch” and staying mechanically sound. This will serve four major purposes: 1) Health - stretch and strengthen the smaller muscles of the arm, 2) Velocity -establish arm speed and finish, 3) Accuracy - develop a consistent release point, 4) Rhythm - sound and more fluid throwing mechanics.

------------------------
http://theacc.collegesports.com/sports/m-basebl/spec-rel/033105aae.html

The last thing is long toss. I believe the best way to improve arm strength is to get on a throwing program. This consists of progressively throwing as hard as you can for further and further distances. Over time the arm will get stronger.

-------------------------
http://www.usoc.org/12219_12315.htm

"The best exercise to increase your arm's strength is to play long toss with a partner. This doesn't mean to throw the ball as high as you can. It simply means to throw it as long (length) as you can by keeping the baseball on a line and not letting it hit the ground. I try to play long toss about three times a week."
-Kurt Ainsworth

----------------------
http://www.thesportscoach.com/preview/baseball/peterson_longtoss.cfm

"The primary goal of this long tossing program is to increase arm strength. We believe that will increase velocity as well as provide a maintenance program for the arm to help reduce possible injuries. Pitchers should also develop a better sense of rhythm and balance."
Rick Peterson

"The primary goal of this long tossing program is to increase arm strength. We believe that will increase velocity as well as provide a maintenance program for the arm to help reduce possible injuries.

"The last thing is long toss. I believe the best way to improve arm strength is to get on a throwing program."

Notice anything? How about the word believe in them? Show me something that has ACTUALLY BEEN PROVEN. Then I will believe you.
People BELIEVED the Earth was flat. Well I think they were proved wrong now weren't they?

echy88

08-05-2005, 07:51 AM

As someone said earlier long toss does not add velocity to your throws. It does not make you suddenly throw harder. It just stretches your arm out so it can use its power efficiently.

Long toss does not make you throw harder/ add velocity. It simply stretches out your arm so you can use all of your arm when throwing. If you longtoss everyday for a month, you won't be adding 5 mph to your fastball. It just lets you throw as hard as you can before pitching.

chisox2k5

08-05-2005, 11:17 AM

I'll save this one for later... listen I know your a white sox fan and this is hard to understand... but I'll get back to you on this as I'm going to sleep soon.

"The primary goal of this long tossing program is to increase arm strength. We believe that will increase velocity as well as provide a maintenance program for the arm to help reduce possible injuries.

"The last thing is long toss. I believe the best way to improve arm strength is to get on a throwing program."

Notice anything? How about the word believe in them? Show me something that has ACTUALLY BEEN PROVEN. Then I will believe you.
People BELIEVED the Earth was flat. Well I think they were proved wrong now weren't they?

You havent quoted major leaguers supporting your claims, lol.

I'm not going to argue with you, its pointless arguing with someone who is so stubborn that they cant admit that they are wrong. And someone who says 'GG GL HF', watches Dragon Ball Z, cartoons and is into anime at the age of 18 needs to grow up.

Have fun watching cartoon network kid.

XFactor

08-05-2005, 03:05 PM

Why would I need to quote a major leaguer? Just because someone is a major leaguer, doesn't mean they know everything. Even if they were a career .300 hitter, does not mean they know everything, just means they'd know how to hit a baseball, not that they'd know how to teach how to do it correctly.

Who cares if I watch anime? What does that have to do with anything that we are currently discussing?

"Originally Posted by chisox2k5
First off throwing off a mound from October to Mid-March isnt smart. Throwing off a mound breaks down your mechanics and is more detrimental to your arm then throwing off flat ground. "

Okay, if throwing off a mound broke down your mechanics... then how the heck would you get better at pitching if you can't even pitch off a mound? It's like telling someone to become a better skater that they shouldn't skate... I mean come on here... common sense por favor. And no, as long as you throw with good mechanics, IT IS NOT BAD FOR YOUR ARM! I've never had to taken 1 advil or ice my shoulder once sense I revamped my mechanics in October. NOT ONCE! I Feel 0 pain when I pitched, where before I'd take an advil or two before a game!
Throwing off flat ground makes no sense... Do you pitch from flat ground during a game? No... THEN WHY PRACTICE SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T DO DURING A GAME?!

"Second you said it yourself, when you came back you could throw harder and farther. Long tossing will allow you to throw longer, which means you are throwing harder (if you say anything otherwise you are contradicting yourself), and when you get on a mound you will be throwing looser and easier. Your arm isnt going to know how fast it can go unless you take it to the limit in long toss. And throwing at maximum strength on flat ground will not wear your arm down like it will on the mound."

I said after I was done throwing from late October to mid March. The first time I did long toss, I could throw farther and a lot harder then the year before. So thus would I not be able to make a claim that throwing from a mound can improve your long tossing skills? I mean if you say long toss helps translate to the mound, could I say all my mound work can translate to long toss?

ccbsball12

08-05-2005, 06:09 PM

ok, i decided to throw in my 2 cent on pitching from hearing this debate

xfactor hit the mechanics right on the ball, loading on the backside and correctly transferring your weight, now ive found that this theory is good for most shorter pitchers (5' 9"-6'0"), somone that displays the loading theory is roger clemens and he is the best pitcher in this era and top 3 ever (yes ever, no doubt, if your 43 and can still throw consistent 93 mph fastball and have a 0.41 era on the road please speak up) i switched to loading theory and went from 72 to 85 mph on my fastball, and became the ace of my varsity high school baseball team and im only 5' 8" 155 lbs. (of course i got matured and grew in a year) why not use all your body parts, legs, core, and arm together, it just makes sense

other people dont like the loading theory and prefer the 'stay tall and fall' mechanics, but that is usually only found it tall pitchers (6' 4" +) im not really familier with the 'stay tall and fall' but some are

long toss can increase your arm strentgh which may or may not contribute to a faster fastball, but the secret behind long toss i keeping the ball no more than 10 to 15 feet above the ground, justin verlander 2004 #2 overall pick throws 97 mph (can hit triple digits) and he used to throw the length of a football field for long toss and his family would form a relay back to justin

i dont like weighted balls, they just ask for arm injuries, and mess up mechanics b/c when you throw a weighted ball you will get tired earlier and easier, when you get tired your body has to comromise and messes up your mechanics, but there is a story behind billy wagner and throwing stones

so those are my 2 cents take it as you want

echy88

08-05-2005, 07:02 PM

Weighted balls are bad for your arm. It may add strength after an injury but it will never make your arm "better". It simply builds more arm strength, but it is killing your arm in the process.

XFactor

08-05-2005, 09:52 PM

chisox2k5

08-05-2005, 10:24 PM

long toss can increase your arm strentgh which may or may not contribute to a faster fastball, but the secret behind long toss i keeping the ball no more than 10 to 15 feet above the ground, justin verlander 2004 #2 overall pick throws 97 mph (can hit triple digits) and he used to throw the length of a football field for long toss and his family would form a relay back to justin

I remember reading that about Verlander on baseballamerica. Did you see his debut against the Indians? 97-100 on pretty much every fastball.

chisox2k5

08-05-2005, 10:26 PM

I'd like to quote someone... someone who actually knows what they are talking about (not saying echy or ccb doesn't, I'm saying that chisox doesn't)

"There is one thing I would like to clarify to alot of people that have a misunderstanding about driving off the mound. There is a huge difference between dipping down and bending your knee and driving off the rubber and forcefully driving off with your hip in an explosive manner. I think alot of people don't know or see the difference and therfore are not realizing there potential. They get hung up on the termanology and don't understand that it is necessary to drive off forcefully with your hip to get your throwing motion going and not just fall off the mound." - Pat Moore

You don't want to just load up and "fall off" the mound... you want to load up and lead with your front him and I think Pat says it best

I agree with everything you and Moore said, except for me not knowing what Im talking about lol (and I apologize for personal insults I get pissed about alot of stuff ;o). What Ive seen is alot of people (for lack of better terminology) start the actual throw when their front leg hits the ground. What people need to realize is that the power generation starts when the leg goes down. Thats when you start to rip with your front side and use the power of your hips.

chisox2k5

08-05-2005, 10:34 PM

haha u make me laugh man, ight first ur right, mechanics make a difference, but what ur sayin is that if u have good mechanics u will throw hard, thats like sayin a weak 10 year old with perfect mechanics wil throw heat, not true, second, long toss streches ur arm out before games, leading to more velocity, third weighted balls make the ball lighter and easier to throw off speed pitches and add mph to ur fastball, and mlb playas use them, im out

Good mechanics help you transfer power more effeciently that is generated from your lower body and core muscles. Unless you have a golden arm you need good mechanics. Weighted balls dont make the ball lighter, they make it feel lighter. Long toss helps get your arm used to going faster, which will translate to more velocity (not overnight)

Edit- woops thats an old post lol....

mobile eggroll

08-06-2005, 07:22 PM

uigh rememeber there is a big difference between arm strength and velocity. vladimar gurreuro (sp?) has incredible arm strength, able to shotgun the ball into home plate from right field but he doesn't have great arm strength (the ability to repeat that same throw over and over). i will continue to say that while long toss builds up arm strength, that in no way shape or form correlates to more velocity at all. you say that in long toss you quicken your throwing motion? why not just quicken your throwing motion from 60-80-100 ft away instead of 150+? you still would get the same results regardless. there are easier and more effective ways to build up arm strength and mechanics that are a lot safer on the arm then long toss, yet its usefulness should not be forgotten in pregame warmups.

again

velocity: how hard you throw on a level plane (does not relate to distance)

arm strength: how strong your arm is, repeating the throwing motion for a set time on a consistent basis

endurance: maintaining the same over a period or distance of time

chisox2k5

08-06-2005, 07:50 PM

\
again

velocity: how hard you throw on a level plane (does not relate to distance)

Either thats a typo or your just kidding, because velocity does correlate to distance. Thats like saying you can throw a ball straight up in the air at 50 mph and it will go just as for as if you throw it 150 mph. Simple physics here, if you shoot a bullet from a gun (parallell to the ground) and drop a bullet from the same height at the same time they are going to hit the ground at the same time. Same goes for throwing, if you throw a ball on a level plane and drop a ball from the same height they are going to land at the same time, but what determines how FAR it goes is velocity.

Why do you think artillery pieces shoot shells out at such great speeds? Because the shells need that great speed to travel that far of a distance, and once they reach a critical speed they are no longer able to maintain level flight and drop to the ground. Same thing in baseball.

So if you are able to gain throwing distance by long tossing, then you ARE gaining velocity assuming the ball is thrown at the same angle. If one ball is launched at 50 mph at 45 degrees and the other one is launched at the same angle at 150 mph which one is going to go farther. Its that simple. Or think of it this way, 2 balls are both thrown at the same angle, one goes 100 feet the other goes 200, which one is thrown harder. If its not velocity that makes one ball go farther then PLEASE tell me (besides spin, wind, magic, etc) what it is.

Stop giving out bad advice.

XFactor

08-06-2005, 08:50 PM

Well, this is Dick Mill's view on it

"Is There Any Value In Long Toss?
As most of you know I am not a believer in using long toss for the reasons that most pitchers and coaches endorse its use which is for building arm strength for velocity, stretching the arm out or reducing the risk of injury. It has no value in any of those areas especially since pitching velocity is not an arm strength activity, you do not want to stretch out the shoulder anymore because too much flexibility increases the risk of injury and actually has been proven to reduce velocity and long toss has not been proven to reduce injury any more than pitching from the mound will.

These are all just more "belief based" reasons that advocates use backed up by no positive evidence just anecdote.

Actually long toss and throwing off the mound are such dissimilar activities that they will not compete with each other to the point where long toss could create problems when pitchers finally do go to the mound.

So the bottom line is that long toss, although done by the majority of pitchers at the high school, college and pro levels...will not aid in increasing pitching performance. It's all one "big belief" system whose value could only be from the placebo effect.

If long toss worked it should also work for outfielders. This means that all outfielders...especially left-fielders who normally have the weakest arms of all outfield postions...could easily build arm strength and more distance just by long tossing. That has not worked for helping to convert weak throwing left-fielders to strong throwing right-fielders. So if it doesn't work for outfielders (or infielders) why on earth should it work for pitchers!!

I would not even suggest using long toss as a warm-up tool on game day because you are really just wasting your time. The quicker you get on the mound the faster your mind and body are tuned into the rhythm and tempo of your delivery. Why not just warm-up there?

So does long toss have any value? Maybe it does. How about just having fun throwing! If you want to throw longer then by all means have fun doing it but do it in the correct context.

Also remember that long toss is a full body activity so you can also use it as part of your overall conditioning program.

Just don't use it instead of throwing from the mound.

If you are going to put energy into doing long toss think about how much better a pitcher you would be if you put that energy into throwing from the mound with a purpose.

With every long toss throw you lose the opportunity to become a better pitcher who job is to develop better mechanics, focus on the task of pitching and to hit the glove with all your pitches.

Dick" - Dick Mills

This one person I work with believes it helps keep them arm staying in shape, which I agree with. He said you shouldn't throw a day before a start and that you should long toss within 2 days of pitching. He says that will keep the arm in good shape and it will improve velocity... I don't believe the "improve velocity" part though. If that were true I wouldn't be seeing 18 year old kids throwing in the mid 70's. I'd be seeing them throw in the upper 80's.
What is going to improve your velocity is good mechanics and good tempo (everying in sync, not too slow or too fast)

chisox2k5

08-06-2005, 10:15 PM

This one person I work with believes it helps keep them arm staying in shape, which I agree with. He said you shouldn't throw a day before a start and that you should long toss within 2 days of pitching. He says that will keep the arm in good shape and it will improve velocity... I don't believe the "improve velocity" part though. If that were true I wouldn't be seeing 18 year old kids throwing in the mid 70's. I'd be seeing them throw in the upper 80's.
What is going to improve your velocity is good mechanics and good tempo (everying in sync, not too slow or too fast)

To put it kindly Mills doesent have the best reputation. I think you can see why by that article. I go to tons of games and in EVERY game the pitchers get in some long toss before they goto the pen. Even outfielders and infielders do. Pitchers on their off days do it. His reasoning that 'Well it doesent work for infielders' is just bad. He is saying because not everyone has a rocket arm it doesent work. Well lets face it Mr Mills... some people are put at 2B for a reason, they cant throw good. What do you think would happen to Mills business if he came out and said 'Long toss is good for you, but it doesent work for everyone because some peoples baseball ability is limited by genetics' his business would go down. If Mills is so right about everything like he claims then he would be the pitching coach for a professional team. His whole business is based on false hopes of adding 5-7 mph in a month or whatever crap he says.

The whole thing is the more you throw, the stronger your arm will become, the harder you will throw. I think we both agree that distance and velocity are related, so if long tossing the right way allows you to throw farther(which it does) then that means it is helping you gain velocity. True, you could probably gain velocity by throwing off the mound too, but throwing off the mound is more stressful on your arm. Why do you think when I went to a Cubs Marlins game last season Prior throwing off flat ground to a catcher and a few days later Zambrano. Why do players start off flat ground for spring training... why not just jump onto the mound right away. Its more stressful on your arm.

mobile eggroll

08-06-2005, 10:32 PM

i give up on this thread since you are adamant that arm strength relates to velocity ( which only maybe one or 2 people here agree with).

example problem (distances an speeds arent real)

i could have a ball shoot out of a cannon parallel to the ground at 80 miles an hour and have it go 80 ft before it started losing its velocity and finally falls at 100 ft . yet i could shoot out of the same cannon and have the ball go 80 mph again except at a 30 degree angle and i guarentee the ball will go past that first marker of 115 feet. so same speed yet 2 different results.

also they throw off flat ground so they dont have to worry about leg mechanics and so they can simply focus on how they throw the ball with their arm.

your being a hypocrite by saying all this, because if wat your saying is true then you can get the same results throwing throwing from 60 ft away as hard as u can on a level plane. long toss is just an exagerrated version of that except the only effect i can see is showing off (or looking like an idiot if you have poor aim and can't hit your target)

for the last time : there is no relation between arm strength and velocity!!!

oh and btw come back to me in 10 years after you've jacked up your arm and then tell me about giving bad advice, because i do not appreciate being attacked in that manner, especially by a 2bit know-it-all.

chisox2k5

08-06-2005, 11:06 PM

i could have a ball shoot out of a cannon parallel to the ground at 80 miles an hour and have it go 80 ft before it started losing its velocity

.

That just shows how much you know. As soon as the ball is released, or shot out of a cannon it begins to lose velocity. Not after 80 feet.

And when I was speaking I was speaking in terms of constant angles... lmao.

If you want to say that strength doesent equal velocity, lets use the cannon thing. The cannons powder or propellant is similar to your mechanics and arm strength, its what makes the shell or ball go fast. If your saying strength doesent correlate to velocity then your saying that you dont need the amount of propellant that they use to shoot the shells as far and as fast as they do. The propellant represents power (power = strength and speed) that you can generate with your body, AND your arm.

So by your reasoning I could shoot an object just as far with 1lb of propellant as I could with .1 lb. Hmmm, something doesent make sense here.

Power is what makes the ball go fast. If you want a physics definition, power is defined as the rate at which work (throwing the ball) is done. To throw the ball hard, you need to accelerate quickly, you cant do that without good arm strength.

And you still havent answered my question about if 2 balls are fired, one at 50 mph one at 100 at the SAME angle, which one will go farther.

I never said that "strength is the only thing that relates to velocity." I said power is. Power=speed and strength. So if you increase strength then you have more power. Its that simple.

chisox2k5

08-06-2005, 11:25 PM

Plyometric Bench Press Training for More Strength & Power

By Kenny Croxdale, BA, CSCS and Tom Morris MS, CSCS

Any questions about this article can be emailed to: KennyCrox@aol.com

Reprinted with the permission of the author and Mike Lambert - Powerlifting USA Magazine - May/02. Powerlifting USA subscriptions are $31.95 a year for 12 issues - Call 1-800-448-7693 to order.

Powerlifters are beginning to learn that speed development is fundamental to increasing the amount of weight lifted. Many powerlifters find speed training difficult to accept because of the low resistances often utilized. The typical individual will ask themselves "How can I increase my max by lifting lighter weights more explosively?" This article will review some of the research regarding the importance of speed training for power development and how speed training can be used to increase an individual's 1RM on the bench press.

First let's define what power is. Power is equal to force multiplied by distance divided by time.

Power = Force x Distance/Time

Since the terms force and strength are often used interchangeably and distance divided by time is the same thing as speed, power can more simply be defined as strength multiplied by speed. Therefore,

Strength x Speed = POWER.

Since strength and speed are components of power, increasing one while neglecting the other limits total power development. Unfortunately, many players focus on strength because they are familiar with this traditional and well-established mode of training. Because strength and speed have a multiplicative impact on power, athletes can make greater gains if they develop both components. For example, if an arbitrary strength score for an athlete was 2, and the athlete's arbitrary speed score also was 2, the hypothetical power rating would be:

2 x 2 = 4

Doubling strength without altering speed would double power:

4 x 2 = 8

If the same athlete made only a 50 percent gain in strength and an equal gain
in speed, the power rating would be:

3 x 3 = 9" (Brittenham, 1997)

I deleted the rest of the article, if you want me to post the rest just ask.

Maybe listening to PROFESSIONALS say the SAME THING will change your mind

XFactor

08-07-2005, 01:35 AM

echy88

08-07-2005, 08:31 AM

When it comes down to it mechanics and control are most important. I'm not saying you can get by with a 60 mph fastball in the pros, I'm just saying that these two elements come first. X-factor was right in saying that a person without mechanics couldn't throw a strike if there life depended on it at times. People need to stop caring about velocity at some point and focus on throwing the batter off balance/ having better control.

ccbsball12

08-07-2005, 08:54 AM

yes location is more important than speed but you still need speed....good example of someone who doesnt have much speed but has great loaction is Greg Maddux

heres another story, during the 2000 big-ten playoffs (i think) a pitcher from penn state topped out at 75 mph, but was able to throw a 3-hit shutout against Michigan, why?? cus he was able to locate the ball where he wanted it

echy88

08-07-2005, 11:33 AM

Yes thats what I meant. You can't just have a 75 mph fastball though. I'm sure he had decent off speed stuff to fool hitters. You still need to have some speed regardless of your other pitches. You can't throw 60 mph and get by in the pros, unless you are strictly a knuckleballer.

chisox2k5

08-07-2005, 01:24 PM

You can have all the strength and power in the world but if you don't have good mechanics and good timming, it won't result in anything. I don't care if every pro on earth told me to throw a watermellon before every start. If it isn't proven, WHY SHOULD I DO IT?! You say to do this and do that but it's all belief based BS, it isn't proven. I don't know about you but I don't see any of the IF or OF doing long toss before the game... maybe it's a White Sox thing..

Everything you say you said is going to get you more velocity. So kiddo, how hard do you throw? Who cares if a pitcher can throw 88 MPH.. if he can't hit the broad side of the barn no one will want him. Well everyone is working on spending hours of long toss, stupid drills, weight lifting, and less time on mechanics, their control will get more and more poor

86-88 and topped at 91 lol. Partial D2 scholarship.

I agree with you about good mechanics and timing. Good mechanics and timing helps you gain arm speed. No it isnt just a White Sox thing. Get there 3 hours before the game and youll see guys stretching their arms out. I dont understand why you are talking to me like I said something bad about mechanics, if anything mechanics are the most important thing.

Im done with this thread, you guys can do whatever you want to, but in the end youll still be that same high school pitcher throwing 80 mph and whining about politics in baseball when you dont play when the truth is you just blow.

XFactor

08-07-2005, 04:04 PM

chisox2k5

08-07-2005, 05:23 PM

Yeah... I just suck. I mean, a left handed pitcher throwing 83-87 MPH just sucks... I mean that is just terrible.

I mean this year (after high school ball) I had an ERA under 1... over 30 strike outs. I ended up with a .476 batting average, I mean thats just terrible... what ever shall I do

30 strikeouts is nothing lol... yeah Minnesota high school baseball must be high caliber like Florida.

"Story #3, this year. Tryouts... from monday-thursday we have tryouts.. I did pretty damn well in them, obviously (so I get to be benched on JV the whole year). "

You sound like a stud, being benched on JV the whole year.

When you get invited to play at the area code games, then talk to me bro.

XFactor

08-07-2005, 06:21 PM

I think I already stated that the Varsity coach had it out for me. And yes I did do pretty damn well in them, yet I still get benched because the coach knows nothing. I believe I've stated that fact as well.

mobile eggroll

08-07-2005, 06:24 PM

do us all a favor and pull your conceited head outta your ass please? becasue apparntly we aren't in your area code games (which dont mean **** in the first place) 86-88 groundball pitcher.

chisox2k5

08-07-2005, 08:36 PM

do us all a favor and pull your conceited head outta your ass please? becasue apparntly we aren't in your area code games (which dont mean **** in the first place) 86-88 groundball pitcher.

86-88 with a $7,000 scholarship

area code games dont mean ****? LOL!!!!

ccbsball12

08-08-2005, 06:13 AM

yeah thats lke saying 'im the best baseball player on my corner'

and high school ball is way harder than legion, also not sure if you guys have played Pennsylvania ball but theres a lot of talent and great coaches in my area, im from the PA Mid-Penn confrence (which is best in state)

im not trying to say our teams are the calibure of Naples (CA.) but we are pretty damn good for starting the season in below freezing weather

chisox2k5

08-08-2005, 09:36 AM

mobile eggroll

08-08-2005, 01:11 PM

86-88 with 7k to a d-2....wow i'm impressed. not

reminds me of the 90% of the rest of the average pitchers in the US.

ps. i love cali ball :dance

chisox2k5

08-08-2005, 01:34 PM

86-88 with 7k to a d-2....wow i'm impressed. not

reminds me of the 90% of the rest of the average pitchers in the US.

ps. i love cali ball :dance

Some of the southern D2 schools are better than most of the northern D1 schools. Even southern NAIA schools are better than some of the northern D1 schools. And BTW thats 86-88 coming off shoulder surgery (HS coach threw me WAY WAY WAY too much, I admit I should have said that I'm not gonna go out there every day, true), so if I add 1mph every year (should be able to add more considering I'm coming off surgery, and people have told me that I am very projectable) thats 90-92 topps at 96.

ccbsball12

08-08-2005, 07:08 PM

yeah a lot of the junior colleges in the south are way better than the northern colleges

mobile eggroll

08-09-2005, 09:24 AM

i'll take west coast ball anyday :D

XFactor

08-15-2005, 03:16 PM

A study by the American Sports Medicine Institute on the difference between flat ground throwing and long toss was done. What it showed was the there was actually more elbow stress during long toss throws of 180 feet and many long toss advocates encourage much longer throws in order to "air out" the arm apparently to build more strength.

Flat-Ground Throwing

While pitchers throw from a mound, all other players throw from flat ground. To identify differences between these throws, 27 college pitchers were tested throwing from flat ground (60, 120, 180 ft) and pitching from a mound (60.5 ft). The crow-hop technique (similar to an outfielder's throwing motion) was used for all flat ground throws. At the instant of foot contact, a shorter stride and less shoulder external rotation were present when throwing from flat ground. At ball release, the trunk was most upright during long-distance (120 and 180 ft) throws. Deceleration forces in the shoulder and elbow after ball release were lowest during long-distance throws. This may help explain why non-pitchers experience less overuse throwing injuries than pitchers. However, elbow varus torque was greatest during 180' throwing, implying that the lower incidence of elbow injury in non-pitchers is probably due to other factors, such as number of throws, intensity of throws, and type of throws (e.g., fastball, curveball). Copyright 2000, American Sports Medicine Institute, October 05, 2004.

Yeah... long toss throwing doesn't reduce injury..
I was helping out for 15 and under try outs. The coaches wanted the kids to long toss, stretch it out as long as possible...he also said it would reduce their arm injuries and their arms wouldn't hurt as much.
Just thought I'd pass by some of the information

YankeesCatcher

08-22-2005, 04:21 AM

Sorry to hyjack this thread...

I'm new to pitching and there's a few things I'd like to know.

1. What are the basic kinds of balks I can commit?
2. Can I do something like, raise my leg like I'm going to throw to home, then put it down and look over at the runner without being balked?

That's it.

Thanks in advance.

mobile eggroll

08-22-2005, 08:46 AM

ruling on balks:
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when_ (a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery; If a left-handed or right-handed pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick off play. (b) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw; (c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base; Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk. A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion "wheels" and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk. (d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play; (e) The pitcher makes an illegal pitch; A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter's box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted. (f) The pitcher delivers the ball to the batter while he is not facing the batter; (g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate; (h) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game; (i) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher's plate or while off the plate, he feints a pitch; (j) The pitcher, after coming to a legal pitching position, removes one hand from the ball other than in an actual pitch, or in throwing to a base; (k) The pitcher, while touching his plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball; (l) The pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher's box; (m)The pitcher delivers the pitch from Set Position without coming to a stop. PENALTY: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk. APPROVED RULING: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a base or to home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk. APPROVED RULING: A runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing and who is called out on appeal shall be considered as having advanced one base for the purpose of this rule. Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner. If there is doubt in the umpire's mind, the "intent" of the pitcher should govern. However, certain specifics should be borne in mind: (a) Straddling the pitcher's rubber without the ball is to be interpreted as intent to deceive and ruled a balk. (b) With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base.

basically any intent to decieve the runner is considered a balk

XFactor

08-22-2005, 03:12 PM

Well.. if your left handed (and a runner is on first) you can lift up your leg and plant it at a 45º angle to first and throw. Now, when your throwing with a runner on, when you lift up your foot, if it moves back and it passes the rubber, you HAVE TO THROW HOME. (Unless of course you throwing to 2nd)
You should just throw with a slide step with runners on... it's not that hard. But when your pitching, try not to be too predictable (I'm talking about with runners on). A good person will time you, like (Okay, hes coming to the set... 1001 1002 1003, he throws) and if you do that everytime... people will steal on you. So mix it up... It's funny to be throwing home and the runner on first or second is running back to the bag, lol...

YankeesCatcher

08-23-2005, 03:17 AM

No, what I meant was just like, pretend to throw home, then stop and just look at the runner, not throw or anything but just look.

XFactor

08-23-2005, 02:26 PM

Once you come to the set and you start to move home, YOU CAN'T STOP! Otherwise it's a balk.

Now you can be on the mound and take your foot off the rubber and look at the runner. Or take your foot off and throw. When your looking in for the sign you can throw over without coming to the set.

But no, you can't pretend to throw home and just stop. If it looks like your going to go home but you don't... it'll be a balk

Hope that helps... it's much easier to show you what can and can't be allowed in person.. but yeah

Dravecky43

08-23-2005, 02:39 PM

I was glancing through all of the pages of this thread and noticed some stuff about 6'3" lefties throwing 93 making millions and all of that. I haven't had a chance to read anything else on the thread. I need some help

Rather, my younger bro needs some help. He is starting his Junior year of HS and hasn't played baseball since 5th grade (he was into fencing for awhile) but now wants to play ball again. He is 6'4" and growing, about 190. Oh, yeah, he's a lefty.

A little background on his velocity: The summer before his frosh HS year (9th grade for those of you who went 10-12 for HS), we went to our local pro ball team's game. He did the speed pitch, which had him at 75-77 on flat ground (the gun was pretty accurate). He recently told me that he thinks doing fencing helped his velocity, but he hasn't done that consistenly in a few years and he only threw about 50 MPH at a Giants game this summer.

SO now he wants to play again, but he basically needs a complete redo of everything: mechanics, pitches, etc. What could I do to help him with all of this. Of course, I think the HS team would take him no matter how hard he threw because he is tall and lefty and try to work with him. Does that sound right?

THanks in advance for the help!

esanchez

09-22-2005, 06:52 PM

Many HS teams would take him, but only if he has moderately good stuff. If he can reach the plate 10/10 and throw a strike at least 7/10, they can probably do something with him, especially since he is a lefty. Possibly a starter or spot-lefty specialist, but these roles aren't very important in HS (very rarely do you find a closer or LRP, etc. in HS). Tell him to go for it...if you have a JV team, he might find a comfortable spot there, always with the possibility of advancement.

YankeesCatcher

09-24-2005, 02:49 AM

Just to kick this thread off again, I want to start a little debate over motions.

I find that kicking my right leg off the rubber as I let go of the pitch - though exhausting, is much better for my accuracy and speed.

XFactor

09-24-2005, 09:42 AM

It can't though, sorry ;\
What you want to do when your throwing the ball, is to keep your back foot in contact with the ground as much as possible (even if it's just the top of your shoe) because it provides more stability. (Fun fact, Nolan Ryan would do this and go through a lot of shoes this way.) When your foot leaves the ground, it's like throwing to a moving target.

Now if it works for you, thats good. Pero(but), once your lead foot (right foot if your left handed, left foot if your right handed) touches the ground... THERE IS NOTHING you can do to get more velocity... it's all about getting the energy you created up until that point to get from your legs up through your trunk and out your arm. So if your kicking your right leg after ball release, it doesn't add any more velocity. Once you let go of the ball, I don't care if you go and do a backflip, it still won't add more velocity to it.

YankeesCatcher

09-24-2005, 10:26 AM

Actually, I'd do a front flip.

esanchez

09-24-2005, 06:30 PM

My back leg does something uniqe that coaches hate: it toe-slides to the right. In fact, it goes completely off the rubber about two feet to the right. Pitching coaches shook their head because it absolutely destroys velocity (not to mention my cleats - I went through 3 pairs that season). Fundamental pitching means a toe-pivot on your back foot until the release, and then your foot should follow your arm until it is parallel to your lead-off foot in the fielding position.

In terms of leg-kicks, I always worked from the stretch. With no runners on, I would bend my leg up underneath me and levy it out in front (the double-kick). With runners on, I had no kick, I just picked up my lead-off foot and forced it forward. It extended my step to make up for the velocity, but was hard to pick up from behind the mound.

YankeesCatcher

09-24-2005, 09:30 PM

Sometimes what I do is I just lift my left leg, slam it down, kick off the rubber and spin my right leg in front of my body as I release the pitch.

I can just see my dad pulling his hair out in frustaration when I do that :o

XFactor

09-25-2005, 01:43 PM

With runners on, I had no kick, I just picked up my lead-off foot and forced it forward.

Just to let all you MLB pitchers to be, you want to lead with your front hip, not the foot. I'm just saying, thats all...

And Yankee, do you have any video tape of yourself pitching? I wanna see your pitching style

YankeesCatcher

09-26-2005, 03:16 AM

No, I don't.

I do intend to take a few innings on tape when the season starts. So I can study it later. So maybe then.

And Sean, have you ever had to pitch into extra innings just because your team never scores :p ? I hate that.

XFactor

09-26-2005, 05:14 PM

Nope, never.. although I've only been pitching for a little over 3 years, so ;\

YankeesCatcher

09-27-2005, 02:37 AM

I had that pleasure in my fifth ever start.

We play 6 innings, I threw a shutout, allowing 3 baserunners, one hit and two walks. Problem was, my team didn't score either :p

Into extra innings, first time up the first two grounded out, then popped up to me. Anyway, my time didn't score again.

Inning number 9, as I try to drop a changeup on the outside corner the ball slips out of my hand and I find the ball to be right over the middle.

You can guess what happens next....The ball was hit somewhere between the Earth and the Moon.

Needless to say I was yelled at for serving up a homerun.

madmmac

10-08-2005, 03:48 AM

YankeeC, you must not be playing in a Little League sanctioned league and have coaches who know nothing about youth pitching.

6 innings and you are done.....no questions asked.

YankeesCatcher

10-08-2005, 08:12 AM

Yeah man, that's true... I go "Hey coach, how are my mechanics?" With a puzzled look on his face, he goes "What are those?"

And man...I felt like Harvey Haddox that game.

XFactor

10-08-2005, 03:35 PM

Maybe you should move away then :P

Joelder

10-08-2005, 04:19 PM

YankeesCatcher

10-08-2005, 08:09 PM

Maybe you should move away then :P

To Mexico to avoid all my autograph seekers? Yeah, sure.

You pay.

XFactor

10-10-2005, 01:34 PM

I'm trying to learn on how to throw a change-up. I place the ball on my palms ?what do I do do i release it like a fastball except with all fingers on it?If I'm right,then thats how I throw it but how do I know it works I see do ball like a fastball doing nuttin:confused:

There is many change up grips that you can try, just find the one that feels most comfortable for you. Then you throw it just like a fastball, same arm speed, same mechanics. A good change up will be at LEAST 8-10 MPH slower than your fastball. A great change up will dive down (IE. Santana) and be more than 10 MPH off your fastball

HammeRDrop

10-10-2005, 06:19 PM

There is many change up grips that you can try, just find the one that feels most comfortable for you. Then you throw it just like a fastball, same arm speed, same mechanics. A good change up will be at LEAST 8-10 MPH slower than your fastball. A great change up will dive down (IE. Santana) and be more than 10 MPH off your fastball

Basically when your looking to throw a good change, you have to find a grip that you can throw the ball really hard with, but accurately. Noah Lowry throws his chage up with his middle and ring finger, but he curls up his middle finger like a knuckleball which takes off a good bit of velocity. Another great example is Gagne, arguably the best change in baseball. He hold the change-up with his middle and ring finger (Like Lowry) but spreads them out far like he's gripping a splitter.

Its just something you have to tinker with, it'll come.

johmilucky

10-11-2005, 03:11 PM

my curveball wont break, i was wandering if anybody could help me

HammeRDrop

10-11-2005, 07:31 PM

my curveball wont break, i was wandering if anybody could help me

How old are you?

johmilucky

10-12-2005, 08:03 AM

i am 16ys old

Andrea

10-14-2005, 06:11 AM

YankeesCatcher

10-14-2005, 07:01 AM

ozzyman527

10-14-2005, 12:23 PM

I think the mound is to make life a nightmare for the pitcher actually. I mean, if you think about it, throwing from flat ground is easier. Since you're level with the target. On the mound you have to calculate how to get the pitch right while you're elevated.

Oh yeah, not to mention the fact that you have to get the pitch over....

The mound makes it so much easier, it helps you get the ball down, it gets you to a velocity with less stress on your arm, and you can use your legs a lot more on a mound.

XFactor

10-14-2005, 02:03 PM

Got a question..what exactly are the mound's effects on the ball?
I saw an increasing of speed on the mound, and some control problems off it.
On the mound, curveballs drop more too.
Is that right, or the mound is used just to help the pitcher accuracy?

The mound does increase the speed of your pitches. It's easier on your arm pitching from the mound then it is from flat ground.

Pitching from the mound > Pitching from flat ground

YankeesCatcher

10-14-2005, 08:29 PM

Xfactor,

I read earlier that it's much less stressful to throw the ball from flat ground. In a book called Randy Johnson's Power Pitching.

XFactor

10-14-2005, 11:40 PM

Ursa Major

10-15-2005, 12:03 AM

YankeesC, a frequently (although not universally) taught theory of pitching is that you should imagine that you are "falling off the mound" toward your target, to help you take full advantage of centrifugal force and gravity. Utilizing this principle, your mechanics are in fact aided by a mound, because you're falling more. I agree that throwing from a mound is tough to get used to, particular for someone like you who plays so many innings at other positions. But it's worth developing a knack for it.

YankeesCatcher

10-15-2005, 12:14 AM

My league works like this:

A ( Machine pitch, I didn't play, so I don't know.)
AA ( other team pitches, if the other team's pitcher walks 5 straight their coach walks out and starts pitching. Flat ground pitching with rubber)
AAA ( Same thing as AA, except the coach dosen't bail you out, still no mound and flat ground pitching with a rubber)
Majors (Plastic mound)

Sultan_1895-1948

10-15-2005, 12:33 AM

Anyone who has ever pitched knows that its about timing. The slightest adjustment can mean correcting a problem. Whether its Rob Nen's "toe tap" to keep his arm behind his body, or whether its John Rocker double tapping his glove. It all matters.

Throwing from the mound, and throwing from flat ground are two completely different motions timing wise. The mound allows you to push off and extend your lead leg further. On the mound, your lead leg doesn't stop at level ground, it continues forward and down because of the slope, increasing the bodies torque resulting in maximum velocity. Of course, everything else must be in order, but everything being equal, the mound provides more velocity, not to mention pitch angle advantages.

Andrea

10-15-2005, 05:31 AM

And has it ever explained why throwing from flat ground would actually have less stress on your arm then it would from throwing from a mound?

Edited: The ground reaction forces are received by the legs. How many pitchers actually suffer bad leg injuries from throwing off of a mound? If anything, throwing off of a mound would be easier on the upper body and the arm because of the assistance offered by gravity. That would make it "easier" and less stressful to achieve a higher velocity. The forces on the ball would be - pitcher impulse + gravitational force component - as opposed to only pitcher impulse on flat ground with no assistance from gravity (or the increased forces from the lower body instead of just the trunk and arm)."

This simply means that flat ground throwing does not get assistance from the lower body and gravity so there is actually more stress. The arm has to work harder.
Exactly what i ever though about mound. Gravity helps my pitches, the ball "falls" into the catcher's glove...it's a nice feeling seeing tha ball falling in the glove without efforts.
Also, when i pitch off the mound, i feel that the releasing movement is interrupted by the ground, you can't "fall", i touch too early the ground when i still have to complete my body rotation.
In fact, I think that Randy Johnson (as YankeesCatcher said) can pitch at same speed on flat ground cause his rotation is lateral (sidearm). A 3/4 or overhand pitcher needs to discharge his violent body snap down, and the mound helps those pitchers in doing it.

XFactor

10-15-2005, 03:46 PM

~CAUTION~ Long read, you may want to take this with you on the toilet

"September 15, 2005
Flat Ground Throwing Did Not Work For Randy Johnson - And The Secret To Velocity
All About Pitching...Since 1995

One of our clients, Walter Foote emailed this article to me this morning. Thanks, Walter.

“Randy Johnson continues to throw off a bullpen mound in between starts. Johnson did it again yesterday for the fifth time in preparation for tomorrow night's start in Toronto. If the past four starts, all of which came after a full bullpen session, are any indication the activity works, Johnson will be doing it for a while. In his last four starts Johnson is 3-0 with a 1.27 ERA. Overall, Johnson is 14-8 with a 3.91 ERA in 30 starts. Before Johnson prepped for a start by throwing off flat ground. “

The comments I will make that you are about to read contains the secret to boosting velocity at all levels that not one coach or instructor in 100 understands. Most professional pitchers or pitching coaches do not know this and neither do most high school or college coaches.

What does this article about Randy Johnson say about "specificity of training" or improving performance by practicing what you are expected to do in a game. Why would Randy Johnson believe that flat ground throwing was the same as throwing from the mound? Could it be that he has followed the erroneous premise from another pitching gure that states that "flat ground throwng is less stressful that throwing from the mound?" The opposite is actually true since on flat ground you do not have the benefit of gravity working for you.

Maybe in the not too distant future baseball will figure out that neither long toss nor weight room training has much value for improving your overall pitching performance. After about four weeks of weight training the additional strength you gain cannot be used since the only resistance a pitcher is trying to overcome is a 5 oz. baseball. So where is the value in that? You may want to question your coach or instructor about that.

This article which supports the sports science principle of specificity - which baseball does not normally follow - should also serve to contradict what Braves pitching coach Leo Mazzone has encouraged pitchers to do in between starts for years and years - just play catch in the outfield. That will neither develop better pitchers, or get them fit to pitch in a game or reduce the risk of injury. It is virtually useless and a waste of time unless you enjoy the pure fun of playing catch.

If you believe that Leo Mazzone's method works then why? How will throwing at much less than game intensity help to serve or train a pitcher to be ready to throw at game intensity? It cannot. And yet people continue to believe this.

Pitchers at the high school, college and pro levels should always be asking the question: Why am I spending time doing this activity and will this make me a better and more skilled pitcher and if so why? That question is especially important during the offseason since most pitchers at all these levels are not spending time trying to improve their skill but rather are working on building strength...most of which they will never get to use. Or doing foolish drills which do not transfer to the mound when pitching and only serve to make a pitcher more mechanical rather than smooth.

Pitchers are made in the offseason but not in the weight room and certainly not by doing long toss since pitching is not about arm strength and is not a strength activity. It is about developing arm speed and you can only gain that through building more efficient mechanics since the forces of the body are what deliver the arm. The arm is virtually along for the ride.

From the time the pitcher lands until ball release there is virtually little muscle activity going on in the pitcher's arm. That was proven in an EMG study by famed orthopedic Dr. Frank Jobe back in 1983. They put electrodes on the pitcher's arm and discovered that their wasn't much muscle activity going on. In other words, muscle contraction is not what drives the arm into acceleration. It is stored elastic energy that comes from the body's forces prior to accelerating the arm. This also means that there is not much a pitcher can do to develop more power once the front foot lands.

The important thing then for more velocity is to practice getting to a good landing position with the arm cocked, extended back and ready. The forces of the body will do the rest...not the arm.

In fact, if a pitcher tries to increase his arm speed by focusing on moving his arm faster he will only serve to actually slow it down. You do not want to focus on one aspect of the delivery. What you do want to focus on is making sure that the first movement toward the plate is explosive. That will have the biggest impact for improving velocity more than any single thing a pitcher can do. Of course the pitcher should continuously work on improving his timing which is how to pass off the energy efficiently from one part to the next.

I just gave all high school and college pitchers and minor league pitchers the real and only secret to velocity if there is one.

If high school and college pitchers are not working on perfecting their mechanics (without wasting time doing drills) then how can they expect to perform better come Spring! It will not happen from doing more strength training since pitching is a skill activity where pitchers are graded on their ability to get hitters out...not on how much weight they can squat or bench press or on how far they can long toss.

The offseason is approaching. It is the time when pitchers can either take a step forward and get better or waste time.

If you want to know how to get better then take a look around and see what the large majority of other pitchers are spending their time doing or listen to what most coaches or instructors are advising pitchers to do and then - you do the opposite.

If you want to be mediocre then follow the crowd.

Dick " - Dick Mills

XFactor

11-25-2005, 05:14 PM

~!BUMP!~ For all you pitchers to be out there

andrew45845

12-04-2005, 08:55 PM

hey im lookin for some advice....im 15, 6 foot around 185-190lbs i throw left handed and i throw around 82-85mph......how can i improve my velocity to 90+mph? thanks

wogdoggy

12-07-2005, 12:17 PM

theathleticpitcher.com

:clapping

Coach45

12-08-2005, 12:31 PM

Hey guys, a simple question: if the arm and shoulder girdle doesn't do anything why do they sustain damage? Come on, give it an intellectual shot.

RottenGazebo

12-08-2005, 01:21 PM

Does anybody have a great pitcher's work-out?

Coach45

12-08-2005, 02:01 PM

Does anybody have a great pitcher's work-out?

Yes. How old are you and how hard are you willing to work?

chisox2k5

12-08-2005, 02:22 PM

Hey guys, a simple question: if the arm and shoulder girdle doesn't do anything why do they sustain damage? Come on, give it an intellectual shot.

What do you mean by "ARM"

Coach45

12-08-2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach45
Hey guys, a simple question: if the arm and shoulder girdle doesn't do anything why do they sustain damage? Come on, give it an intellectual shot.

Chisox says:
What do you mean by "ARM"

Interesting question, but in general I mean "ARM." To keep from getting technical let's say anything from the shoulder down. I assume you have heard of elbow injuries and I further assume that if I asked you to show me your arm you could do it. (Not intending to poke fun at you if are missing one.) Generally speaking most people consider the elbow as part of the arm but certainly not the whole beast.

Now, give a shot at answering the original question.

chisox2k5

12-08-2005, 03:14 PM

chisox2k5

12-08-2005, 03:26 PM

(or do you want the obvious answer: poor mechanics, poor strength, overuse)

Coach45

12-08-2005, 03:55 PM

chisox2k5

12-08-2005, 04:08 PM

Chisox,

Taking care of business: I will ignore your earlier response. However, if you were my son and said this to an adult you would have a hard time sitting down for a while. And yes I've got sons. If you want to know, one of them was drafted as a pitcher. So wise up a little bit and think, like I'm asking you to. I've studied this a bunch. Enough said.

You would be in ICU before you knew what happend.

What makes you think that any or all of these cause the arm to break down?

They can put stress on the arm

If your answer is mechanics, what specific mechanical flaw or flaws causes the problem.

The list of mechanical flaws goes on and on and on. No not all of them cause stress, but for example, I know from personal experience when my front side opens up too soon it puts massive stress on my elbow. (unless there is some sort of neuro crap or the pain is radiating)

How do you go about finding what they are? How do you know what a mechanical flaw is? If the answer is strength, how do you know when you are strong enough?

Tape. Experimentation. I'm of the opinion that you are never strong enough, you should always be working to get stronger.

If the answer is overuse, how do you know when it's time to stop throwing?

I would say abilities varies from person to person, and it is up to each person to know when they are pushing it. I would say that using the pitchers velocity as a gauge to where he is. I think that strength relates to endurance, so the stronger you are the longer you can go. You cant just say 'well hes thrown 125 pitches hes done' because theres too many variables. But I think you can tell based off fb velocity.

I will say though, with younger kids they dont know what their tolerances are. I'm proof, I threw almost every day in HS, I had shoulder surgery more than a year ago but I just dont have any pop... career might be over.

RottenGazebo

12-08-2005, 04:11 PM

Yes. How old are you and how hard are you willing to work?I'm 13, and I'll do what ever it takes to get into good shape.

Coach45

12-08-2005, 04:32 PM

You would be in ICU before you knew what happend.[QUOTE]

Ever been in battle son? Didn't think so. I don't need to keep this going, so I'll give you one more shot. You might stop and think that someone is trying to help you.

[QUOTE=chisox2k5]The list of mechanical flaws goes on and on and on. No not all of them cause stress, but for example, I know from personal experience when my front side opens up too soon it puts massive stress on my elbow. (unless there is some sort of neuro crap or the pain is radiating)[QUOTE]

Have you considered that there might be another way to keep from putting 'massive stress' on your elbow that trying to stay closed?

[QUOTE=chisox2k5] Tape. Experimentation. I'm of the opinion that you are never strong enough, you should always be working to get stronger.[QUOTE]

I agree that you should always be working to become stronger. Do you take time off between throwing sessions? If so, do you realize that muscles begin to lose strength within 48 hours of the last time you used them intensely? With pitching, what can you actually see on videotape. Have you looked at video of yourself throwing? With pitching, what can you actually see on videotape? Do you see the arm move a little bit at a time or do you just see a blur.

[QUOTE=chisox2k5] I would say abilities varies from person to person, and it is up to each person to know when they are pushing it. I would say that using the pitchers velocity as a gauge to where he is. I think that strength relates to endurance, so the stronger you are the longer you can go. You cant just say 'well hes thrown 125 pitches hes done' because theres too many variables. But I think you can tell based off fb velocity.

Have you ever known a pitcher who says, 'coach, take me out, I'm pushing it? You state that you don't think pitch counts work. So how much velocity do you think a pitcher should lose before he is relieved?

chisox2k5

12-08-2005, 04:42 PM

I agree that you should always be working to become stronger. Do you take time off between throwing sessions? If so, do you realize that muscles begin to lose strength within 48 hours of the last time you used them intensely?

Yep

With pitching, what can you actually see on videotape. Have you looked at video of yourself throwing? With pitching, what can you actually see on videotape? Do you see the arm move a little bit at a time or do you just see a blur.

Little bit at a time, I don't get good forearm layback (recorded with a digital cam at high FPS tho)

1)Have you ever known a pitcher who says, 'coach, take me out, I'm pushing it? 2)You state that you don't think pitch counts work. So how much velocity do you think a pitcher should lose before he is relieved?

1)True, but if you dont want to hurt yourself...

2)Right

3)I couldnt give a specific number, because I'm not qualified to and I'm not going to pretend that I am.

Coach45

12-08-2005, 05:03 PM

Coach wrote:
With pitching, what can you actually see on videotape? Have you looked at video of yourself throwing? With pitching, what can you actually see on videotape? Do you see the arm move a little bit at a time or do you just see a blur?

Chisox replied:
Little bit at a time, I don't get good forearm layback (recorded with a digital cam at high FPS tho)

What kind of a camera and how many frames per second? Is the imagery translated by software, or are you seeing actual frames recorded. Do you understand what will happen if you get 'good forearm layback?' Do you think this is a good idea or a bad one? What are the consequences?

Coach wrote:
So how much velocity do you think a pitcher should lose before he is relieved?

Chisox replied:
I couldnt give a specific number, because I'm not qualified to and I'm not going to pretend that I am.

Who do you think is qualified to determine this, and how should they be trained in order to be qualified? Do you think your coach is qualified, and why.
__________________

chisox2k5

12-08-2005, 05:10 PM

Coach45

12-08-2005, 06:22 PM

Dont know for sure what kind of camera. I looked at it by playing the tape through the camera onto the tv, I didnt put it on a computer. I cant answer the questions on the camera because I dont know the answer.

Forearm layback: well yeah, if you look at vids of all the pros, they all have good layback, so I would have to say it is a good idea, if not essential to throw hard. Dont know the consequences.

Someone who has been around the player, who knows him. Who knows how he tires and where he normally is velocity wise, knows his workout etc. I dont think you can be 'trained' I think the knowledge gained has to be through experience and exposure to the game and the players who are under your control.

Regarding the camera, if it didn't cost a whole bunch it's not high speed. I suspect you were able to see your 'forearm layback' only once or twice out of a lot of tape. Is this true? In the same pitching delivery where you could see this, what could you see in the frames on either side of the layback? These are the frames that tell you what your arm actually did.

I've seen high speed film (not video), at 500 frames-per-second, although of a different type of pitching mechanic than you use. High speed film of the type of mechanics you throw with (like big league guys you see on TV or at the park if you're fortunate enough) looks different. When you 'forearm layback,' the ball actually accelerates backward (toward second base) and downward. The bounce that this causes, along with turning your forearm over, is what ultimately ruptures the UCL. That is, causes the need for Tommy John surgery. Before this surgery was devised guys careers were simply finished.

That's not a good thing. Since you have not either thrown enough, or thrown hard enough, you still have the UCL intact.

If you want to know more we can continue this discussion. We can talk about what kind of training it takes to know how to fix this problem and others. Like you wrote earlier, there is a long list of mechanical problems. Some do damage and some do not. Now you know the cause of one mechanical problem. I can also tell you a way I believe will fix it. It's different than anything you have ever seen.

RottenGazebo

12-08-2005, 06:36 PM

So Coach45, can you help me?

Coach45

12-08-2005, 06:53 PM

So Coach45, can you help me?

So sorry to have missed your earlier message. My apologies. After I eat dinner I'll get back to you.

Posted a bit later:

RG...I thought I could get back to this after I had supper. Because of family obligations I can't take more time with this tonight. I am sorry.

In the meantime, here are other questions which will help me provide an appropriate answer.

1. How well do you compete with other kids your age? How do you rate yourself?
2. Are you on a competitive team or do you play recreational ball?
3. How big is your dad and did he play ball? (Size is not everything!)
4. How big are you (height, weight) and how does your size compare to your teammates?
5. When you say you are willing to work hard, what does this look like to you?
6. Are you a good student?
7. Will working hard on a sport make it tough for you to do well in school?
8. How badly do you want to play baseball at a high level?
9. Is there another sport you enjoy just as much as baseball?
10. Do you have a coach or someone who can at least watch you train?

I can help provide answers to training questions, but you really need help from an adult to sort some of the other stuff out.

Another suggestion: You are online with an adult. This is not necessarily as safe place and you need to be careful who you trust. Please show all of this to your parents. If we get very deep into this I will insist that I communicate with them.

RottenGazebo

12-09-2005, 07:08 AM

Ok Coach45, first off. I just wanted a work-out. I don't want you to come over my house or anything. So really, it's not that big of a deal. And here are your answers.

1. I am very competitive. On a scale from 1-10 I would say 7.5.
2. I just play on a local summer league. But I want to try out for school.
3. My dad is 5'9". He played, and he was very good. He only played through HS.
4. I'm about 5'4" 140 lbs. I am shorter than most of the other kids.
5. I don't really know.
6. Yes
7. No, but the snow will.
8. incredibly bad
9. Yes, football. But I don't play it organized. However, I want to play in HS.
10. no

XFactor

12-22-2005, 02:05 PM

Well I was down in Arizona for a week, working out and visiting my grandparents. A person I worked out with, showed me a website from Tennessee Orthopaedic Clinic about the throwing shoulder. I'll type it out for y'all.

THE THROWING SHOULDER
"As spring and summer roll around, baseball and softball fields become full of atheletes from all ages. "Americ'as pastime" brings on a whole new list of potential injuries due to the simple act of throwing a baseball or softball.
The mechanism of throwing places extreme stresses on the shoulder in all phases of the throwing cycle from the wind-up to the follow-thru. This can lead to several different types of injuries to the shoulder from tendonitis to more severe injuries such as rotator cuff tears or instability.
The most common cause of shoulder pain during this time is tendonities of the rotator cuff. This is caused from overstressing these muscles while throwing. THis is not limited to just pitches but can affect all players at all levels. Lack of proper warm-up, insufficient rest periods, and improper mechanics are the main causes. Treatment includes decreasing the inflammation, resting the rotator cuff and a proper stretching and strengthening program to prevent reinjury.
The most severe injuries are usually of sudden onset. Examples include rotator cuff tears or ligament/labral injuries leading to instabillity. The tendon or labral attachment can be overloaded to its breaking point which may require surgery.
Prevention of these injuries is the key to a successful season. Proper warm up, a structured training program and adequate rest periods can decrease the chance of limiting your season with any of these injuries. Early detection with treatment will prevent a minor injury from becoming a more severe problem. Sharp pain or prolonged soireness with throwing are the first signs and should be evaluated as soon as possible. Contant us at Tennessee Orthopedic Clinic to be evaluated by one of our sports medicine specialists if you or any of your players have any sort of should problems." - Micahel Casey, M.D."

G.I.R.D. is a Dirty Word!
"The overhead throwing motion is a complex interaction between many idfferent parts of the body. Considering the complexity of motion, early sport participation (most leagues start at 5 years old), and growing sport populatiry (an estimated 9 million participants in the U.S.) shoulder and elbow injuries are common.
Starting from the ground, there are many links to the chain of motion which produces throwing force. The motion begins with a strong push off the ground, using force generated by the hiips and thighs, carrying upward through the midsection to the shoulder girdle and out through the arm to the hand. Therefore there are many possible points of breakdown, each one affection the next. Therefore the root of shoulder or elbow pain is not always obvious.
There are many ocmmon biomechanical alterations seen in the overhead throwing population such as inadequate core stability, decreased upper or lower extremity flexibility, or muscle imbalance. However, one alteration is quite prevalent and well researched. Many studies have confirmed a relationship between posteriorcapsular tightness and shoulder and elbow pain. G.I.R.D. (stands for glenohumeral internal rotation deficit) is a difference in internal rotation range of motion between an individual's throwing and non-throwing shoulders. Comparison of athletes with a history of injury versus healthy players revealed that those with a G.I.R.D. dof greater than 20% had a higher risk of injury. The good news is G.I.R.D. is correctable. Data showed that a disproportionate G.I.R.D. can be eliminated with appropriate stretching activities with most athletes returning to papin free throwing. Many participants also reported a feelling of increased throwing effectiveness after the deficit are reduced.
A comprehensive biomechanical evaluation specific to the overhead athlete, culminating in prescription of a customized exercise program will minimize risk of injury and prevalence of activity limiting pain while ultimately enhancing performance. For more information please contact Adam Kerley at TOC Physical Therapy, 865-560-8550 or Champion Sports Training, 865-454-2876" - By Adam Kerley PT, ATC, CSCS

The stretch they talked about is called the "sleeper" stretch. What you do is go on a flat surface and lay down on one side, lets say the left side. You'd take your left arm and put it at a 90º angle, then move your arm down towards the ground until it can go anymore, then hold it there for 30 seconds, do that 3 sets of 30 secondstimes a day for both arms and that will help if your experiencing elbow pain. The Minnesota Twins use this stretch for their pitchers, and many times when people hurt their elbows and may need Tommy John Surgery, then can do this stretch instead and it's much better then taking the surgery.

I found a website, who both describe what the stretch does, why you'd need it and what the stretch looks like (incase you need visuals)

http://www.impactbaseball.com/non-subs/nsubs_cspc_006.htm

Coach45

12-22-2005, 07:52 PM

I looked at this online article. The author is listed as a licensed physical therapist and carries athletic training certifications. Whoever licensed him needs to hold him accountable for his mis-statements.

Without dredging into the details of the article, when I saw the following statement the author lost all credibility:

"Tightness of the posterior capsule (back of the shoulder) causes the humeral head (head of the shoulder bone) to move forward excessively during lifting, overhead lifts, and throwing."

From this statement alone you must seriously weigh whether or not Mr. Tyson knows what he is talking about. There is no shoulder bone. The shoulder joint is comprised of the interface between two bones, the Humerus and the Scapula (laymen's term: shoulder blade). The head of the Humerus is the end of the upper arm bone (the Humerus) that articulates with the Scapula. The shoulder joint is also stabilized at a fixed distance from the Sternum by the Clavicle (collarbone).

XFactor

12-22-2005, 09:43 PM

Well, still
"The fifth and final area that needs to be flexible in the pitcher is the posterior capsule of the shoulder. The posterior capsule is in the back on your shoulder. To see if you have any tightness, place both hands behind your back as high as possible. Your hands should be able to reach up equally behind your back. More than a “fist” distance between your hands would indicate decreased flexibility and the need to stretch.
If the shoulder cannot rotate inward efficiently then the elbow must do extra work to position the hand properly at ball release. I often will find pitchers with elbow problems who have tightness in the back of their shoulders. To stretch the back of your shoulder perform the “Sleeper stretch” which is described below." - found at http://www.impactbaseball.com/non-subs/nsubs_cspc_006.htm by Alan Tyson
It's true if you have tightness, you'll need to stretch it out because it could cause you major elbow problems (ie. TJ surgery).
The person I worked out with said he couldn't feel the tips of his fingers for over 50 years, and after doing this stretch for 5 months he has some feeling in them again. I found that interesting

Coach45

12-23-2005, 06:10 AM

It's true if you have tightness, you'll need to stretch it out because it could cause you major elbow problems (ie. TJ surgery).
The person I worked out with said he couldn't feel the tips of his fingers for over 50 years, and after doing this stretch for 5 months he has some feeling in them again. I found that interesting

You made a pretty broad statement that 'it is true', to paraphrase, if you have tightness in your shoulder it will cause major elbow problems. I disagree. Your assertion is absolutely not true. If the shoulder is 'tight' it it because muscles are contracted, which is the body's response toward protecting damaged tissue (i.e. ligaments of the shoulder capsule). If muscles are contracted because they are protecting other tissue and you 'stretch' them you are likely to cause serious damage to the tissue the contracted muscles were trying to protect in the first place.

Go to the CDC or NIH websites. What are researchers now saying about stretching? One of the biggest conclusions is that stretching leads to joint instability when used in conjuction with athletic training. In order to prepare muscles and tissues for strenuous athletic activity it is more important to increase blood flow to the tissues involved.

Pithcers require Tommy John surgery when they rupture one of the ligaments (the UCL) that holds the Unla bone (in the forearm) to the upper arm bone (Humerus). If this ligament is not repaired they will never throw again, with any velocity. The mechanical act that ruptures the UCL has nothing to do with the shoulder, other than the fact that the Humerus is maximally, outwardly rotated (external rotation) when it happens. This should tell you that if a pitcher has shoulder discomfort the liklihood of him applying enough force to the elbow to rupture the UCL is minimal. Not the other way around.

The example you cite is interesting. For someone to have a condition for five decades where they cannot feel their fingertips is serious. From what you wrote it sounds like fingertips of both hands have no sensation. There is major disruption in the nerves that supply both arms. Did this person seek medical advice? Without specific medical details neither you nor this person can substantiate a claim like this. There are too many variables. Regardless, do you think it's wise to use an anecdote like this to bouy up broad application of any particular exercise for pitchers?

XFactor

12-23-2005, 01:21 PM

I'd say use the stretch only if you have to. The person I worked with down in Arizona is the one who showed me the website, I don't know much about it.
He only had numbness in 1 hand. He use to bang his arms against a wall before football games until they went numb so he could hit people without any pain.

"If the shoulder cannot rotate inward efficiently then the elbow must do extra work to position the hand properly at ball release." That is if there is a problem with the shoulder, the elbow will take the extra work

"In order to prepare muscles and tissues for strenuous athletic activity it is more important to increase blood flow to the tissues involved."
Duh, obviously, I didn't say stretch your shoulder out before you pitch and you'll be ready to go. A dynamic warm up is a lot better.

"You made a pretty broad statement that 'it is true', to paraphrase, if you have tightness in your shoulder it will cause major elbow problems. "
I believe I said it could, not it will.

XFactor

12-23-2005, 02:08 PM

BrantleyF

12-23-2005, 02:43 PM

hiddengem

12-23-2005, 03:00 PM

Aight man, I agree with the statement on saying that mechanics are essential while also size and age to make the ball go faster. But the statement made about weighted balls isn't entirely true. Weighted Balls are used in physical therapy for slow throwing to bring a torn muscle back to normal shape. If a player were to abuse the use of a weighted ball by trying to throw it at a fast speed, the player would strain his arm by putting to much pressure on the rotator cuff. Weighted balls help in a controlled environment, but don't always add speed or make the ball that much lighter.
You think that it works the same as if using a weight on a bat, when in fact a weighted bat wont cause torn muscles because the trunk is able to deal with that amount of pressure more than the arm.

I can completely understand your position on this, because after all this is very different from the pitching approach over the past 50yrs. BUT...what if you were to see this type of training work? What if, when doing it properly it not only didn't hurt the arm but actually helped? I believe it is happening, and I have no reason not to belive that.

Just because you have been conditioned to think a certain way because thats all you've ever known, doesn't mean its the ONLY way. The fact of the matter is, Tommy John surgeries are about as common these days as a runny nose.

Coach45

12-23-2005, 06:20 PM

"When the book comes out - The Science And Art Of Baseball Pitching - you will get another education - probably the equivilant of a masters degree in pitching...maybe even a Ph.D and it will all be backed up with research which is all referenced. " - Dick Mills

Because this is taken from some particular context it's a little hard to know what is meant, or what you intend for it to mean. However, earning a master's degree or PhD in ANY subject requires a whole lot more than simply reading (let alone understanding) a book. I will look forward to seeing what kind of research is referenced. Many studies exist that have appeared in non-refereed journals. Do you understand what implications this has?

I put as much time and effort into investigating Mr. Mills as I did Dr. Marshall before we ever made the decision to visit Marshall in Zephyrhills. Based on my findings I rejected Mills' teaching out of hand. Have you investigated what Dick Mills teaches? Are you aware that his son was a highly rated pro prospect, and that he blew out his arm? Please tell me why you think what he teaches is superior. Please be specific, otherwise you damage your credibility.

Mr. Mills seriously damaged his credibility with me when I looked at his web site, ordered free materials and find "Boston Red Sox Major League Pitcher" splashed all over them...then I check with baseball-reference.com and find he threw less than 4 innings in the bigs and lasted all of a week. I do not consider that experience to be real major league experience in a real world sense and am leery of anyone who makes exaggerated claims. If he makes them in one place he is likely to make them in others. My opinion.

I am personally much more impressed by and interested in someone that won the Cy Young (at 5'8" tall), threw every single day for over three decades without injuring his arm, and has a PhD that means something. That man is Dr. Mike Marshall.

Coach45

12-26-2005, 09:49 PM

But the statement made about weighted balls isn't entirely true. Weighted Balls are used in physical therapy for slow throwing to bring a torn muscle back to normal shape. If a player were to abuse the use of a weighted ball by trying to throw it at a fast speed, the player would strain his arm by putting to much pressure on the rotator cuff. Weighted balls help in a controlled environment, but don't always add speed or make the ball that much lighter.

I'm unsure what weighted ball statement you are referring to. I agree that if a pitcher with conventional, traditional mechanics throws weighted balls he is more likely to injure his arm or shoulder if he attempts to throw them hard.

However, the young man I train is currently throwing an eight pound iron ball with the identical mechanic he throws the baseball. At full intensity. A minimum of 48 repetitions per day, every single day. He can do this because he uses his arm and body differently than what you are used to seeing pitchers do. It works extremely well and his arm/shoulder never hurts.

XFactor

12-27-2005, 12:39 AM

I'm curious what you did to refine your mechanics. What exactly does your new throwing regimen entail? How often do you throw? Are you dedicated about keeping to your plan?

My son trains in Florida and the young man I train throws indoors here in Colorado. Two weeks ago it was -6 degrees when I met him at 6:30 in the morning but it's not usually that cold.

Well you see, it all started way back when... I played baseball K-3, then I stopped playing and didn't start it back up until I was in 9th grade, and about 5'6 230 some pounds. Yeah, no one really knew much about pitching mechanics. I met someone who thought they knew, but my arm was always sore and it hurt a lil in the shoulder and in the elbow and I looked like a darn robot.
Then I met someone by the name of Joe Janitske, who helped me refine them. I didn't have my arm in a good cocked position pointing towards 2nd base, my elbow dropped when I was throwing, stuff like that. So I just worked and worked at it and now my only problem is I kinda step towards 1st base when I throw (I'm LHP) and that is cutting a good 5 MPH or so from my pitches. But when I was down in Arizona I worked on it and things were going good.. AND PAIN FREE! Mwhahaha

Since I got back I haven't thrown much, because of the Holidays and family is over and all that good stuff, but I plan on going either later today or tomorrow and starting a 3 times a week pitching program. And yeah, I'm dedicated to my plan.

Jake Patterson

12-27-2005, 08:59 AM

However, earning a master's degree or PhD in ANY subject requires a whole lot more than simply reading (let alone understanding) a book. I will look forward to seeing what kind of research is referenced. Many studies exist that have appeared in non-refereed journals. Do you understand what implications this has?

I am personally much more impressed by and interested in someone that won the Cy Young (at 5'8" tall), threw every single day for over three decades without injuring his arm, and has a PhD that means something. That man is Dr. Mike Marshall.

I have a B.S. and an M.Ed. and am matriculating into a Doctorate program. Beleive me a doctorate is a lot more involved than reading even 50 books. The particular program I am involved with includes 24 subjects at $1900.00 per course ($45,600.00) approximately 100 books plus countless hours of research and of course, residencies, a dissertation and a Doctoral project. Total cost approximately $100,000.00 and 3-4 years of time.

While I am not sure I agree (or disagree) with Coach45 (or Dr. Marshall) yet, they are willing to back up their position with science, or at least an attempt to conduct ligitimate research. Having these discussions without providing hard, sound, scientifically supported information make them cantankerous.

Those of us who coach should be willing to learn. I think we all know that there is "teaching" out there that simply does not work. I have been talking with Little League International and the Little League Eastern Regional Headquarters and the bottom line is there is really no damage free, consistant training being conducted at any level. And in the Little League's case, other than the Al and Al program (A program I have not either seen nor ever heard of) they offer little, especially at the league specific level. The problem we have in high school ball is two-fold, we have players that have been groomed by those that are not trained themselves or they have been influenced by antiquated methods that are prone to damage. There has to be a better way...

My message... I have been watching this thread and looking and reading everything you guys are providing. After twenty years of coaching and 40 years in the game, I now understand how little I know. If we keep the debate civil we might just all learn something worth while....

Ursa Major

12-27-2005, 10:17 AM

XFactor, thanks for weighing in with your experiences in pitching. We old folks trying to teach pitching sometimes don't have the perspective from motivated kids trying to learn.

Anyway, I looked at the trainer's web site with the "sleeper stretch" you mentioned, and don't get it. Here's the picture of the stretch you referenced:
http://www.impactbaseball.com/images/csps_pic53.JPGNow, as I understand the drill, you're supposed to "position your opposite hand around the wrist and gently push the wrist and forearm down towards the table", like this guy is doing. But, gravity already is pushing the wrist and forearm down; where's the tension? What am I missing?

hiddengem

12-27-2005, 01:55 PM

Coach45

12-27-2005, 07:02 PM

While I am not sure I agree (or disagree) with Coach45 (or Dr. Marshall) yet, they are willing to back up their position with science, or at least an attempt to conduct ligitimate research. Having these discussions without providing hard, sound, scientifically supported information make them cantankerous.

Those of us who coach should be willing to learn. I think we all know that there is "teaching" out there that simply does not work. I have been talking with Little League International and the Little League Eastern Regional Headquarters and the bottom line is there is really no damage free, consistant training being conducted at any level. And in the Little League's case, other than the Al and Al program (A program I have not either seen nor ever heard of) they offer little, especially at the league specific level. The problem we have in high school ball is two-fold, we have players that have been groomed by those that are not trained themselves or they have been influenced by antiquated methods that are prone to damage. There has to be a better way...

My message... I have been watching this thread and looking and reading everything you guys are providing. After twenty years of coaching and 40 years in the game, I now understand how little I know. If we keep the debate civil we might just all learn something worth while....

JP, this is very well said. The shoes we stand in are similar. Two-plus years ago when I started seriously wrestling with these issues, pitching in particular, I quickly found that, even having pitched in college, 'what I thought I knew,' did not amount to much and did not stack up well against science and truth.

Earlier you asked 'WHAT NOW?' One solution I have considered is starting a completely independent league for 8-13 year olds that would stress fundamentals and fun. (As a six-year old pitcher I remember looking out into the oufield and noticing I had no outfielders. The were sitting on top of a concrete outhouse watching the game. Bored out of their socks because no one ever hit the ball into the outfield.) Forty-five minutes of training, then games. Who cares if there are two shortstops or two second basemen? Everyone bats each inning. Everyone gets a chance to pitch. Every game. The players will keep score and we'll do everything we can to keep adults out of it. Probably I would have catchers call balls and strikes.

I suspect that those interested in more serious, advanced training will make it known. IF it works, and IF it catches on, it addresses the high-school problems, injury problems, and more. Some of the toughest parts will be training qualified coaches and enduring the character assasination that seems sure to follow.

My dad, who passed away on Christmas eve a year ago, was a phenomenol educator. He believed that the finest teachers with advanced degrees should be working with the youngest children. I think he was correct. Interestingly, I had an almost identical conversation with Dr. Marshall while in Florida about a year ago.

Jake Patterson

12-28-2005, 10:09 AM

I did receive Dr. Marshall's 2004 tape and will review this week. Also received the Chicago Tribune article on Mark Prior and will be conducting further research on his pitching method. The article claims that Prior is one of the first "...whose technique was significantly shaped in the labartory." With a 41 and 23 record and a 3.24 ERA he may be someone to further examine. Again my angle on all this is developing (or uncovering) a damage free method of teaching young players.

wogdoggy

12-28-2005, 10:43 AM

there is a link on e teamz but i cant just cut and paste it but try this.You will need real player

http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/boards/baseball/message.cfm?id=1477270

pgibbons

12-28-2005, 10:54 AM

Excellent interview. Thank you for that link wogdoggy.

Jake Patterson

12-28-2005, 05:20 PM

I found this on a website called Can't Stop The Bleeding http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/index.php?p=4258

Found it interesting....

"If Marshall has a problem, then it’s that he knows too much, if you ask me.

“If Prior would take the time to relearn a few things about his pitching motion, I believe he could be an incredible pitcher,” Marshall said. “He should have started the day after last season ended and worked his tail off to correct the flaws that have caused him to unnecessarily stress his arm to a point that it cannot withstand. The problem isn’t complicated, but it takes hard work to rectify it. I’d work his (butt) off.”

The thing is, as long as Prior puts his faith in the theories of former pitcher Tom House and Cubs pitching coach Larry Rothschild, Marshall is convinced that he won’t come close to his potential.
“Ask either one of them what the four muscles are that comprise the rotator cuff, and he wouldn’t have a clue,” Marshall said. “How the heck can you teach anything when you don’t know the muscles that are involved? They sure as heck don’t know how to apply Newton’s first, second and third laws to the pitching motion. They don’t know Isaac Newton from the Fig Newton.”

Jake Patterson

12-28-2005, 05:26 PM

there is a link on e teamz but i cant just cut and paste it but try this.You will need real player

http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/boards/baseball/message.cfm?id=1477270

GREAT INTERVIEW! Thanks Wogdoggy....

Jake Patterson

12-28-2005, 05:50 PM

XFactor

01-27-2006, 11:27 PM

The first 8 paragraphs of Dick Mills latest blog entry (1/26/06)

"The Science And Art Of Baseball Pitching - A Coachs' Handbook Of Scientific Pitching will soon be released...a 608 page volume with over 500 scientific references. The Table of Contents is 13 pages long, which can be viewed right now on this blog.

I believe that up to this date in baseball history that this manual to be released will be considered the definitive reference on how to improve baseball pitching performance since there are no other scientific reference books on baseball pitching that I have found. The reason I say this and so so humbly, is because all other books on baseball pitching previously written, three of my own included, contain mostly only the beliefs and experiences of the authors.

If there are some books out there on baseball pitching with references that cover in depth many of the topics which we cover I would like to know about them.

I have admitted many times to once being a "belief based" instructor until early 2004 when I realized, from consulting with sports scientists, that proven sports science principles do not support many of the activities that baseball coaches advocate such as pitching drills, long toss, weighted baseballs, flat ground throwing or the idea that baseball pitching requires a lot of strength training.

In all due respect, Tom Seaver's book - The Art Of Baseball Pitching did contain 20 references. But since the early 80's I have seen little referencing of popular topics regarding baseball pitching improvement or performance by any authors. Few coaches are providing proof of why we should follow their recommendations. Until they provide evidence instead of just personal experience we should take their recommendations with extreme caution.

Most of those beliefs on pitching, by some very experienced baseball coaches or instructors have never been held to scienctific scrutiny. We then are supposed to believe what they believe. But why should we?

Our intent in this book is to finally reveal the truth about pitching performanace which is backed up with a volume of evidence.

The question that should always be asked of baseball coaches in regard to improving pitching performance is: How do you know what you know? The resounding answer would be because of their experience or what they learned that was passed down from one coach to another. " - Dick Mills

Jake Patterson

01-28-2006, 08:31 AM

X, do you have a blog site? I Googled Dick Mills and couldn't find the above....

XFactor

01-28-2006, 09:23 PM

I'll give you the link to Dick Mills blog.

Here it is: http://pitchingrebel.typepad.com/

Jake Patterson

01-29-2006, 09:14 AM

I'll give you the link to Dick Mills blog.

Here it is: http://pitchingrebel.typepad.com/

Thanks for the info.

Jake Patterson

01-29-2006, 10:27 AM

Does anone know if Dick Mills' book, The Science and Art of Baseball Pitching out yet??

XFactor

01-30-2006, 07:29 PM

"I just wanted to update you on the status of the book printing.

I received two perfect bound copies of the book from my printer on Friday. I overnighted one copy to my coauthor. We spoke on the phone yesterday regarding a couple of minor design changes to the front and back cover. Those changes will be completed tomorrow at which point I will sign off to start the first limited run of 500.

The changes should be at the printer by Wed and hopefully by the end of next week they will be bound and ready to ship.

Until you see a book at its completion and hold it you cannot understand the impact. This is a massive book; the largest I have ever held. I have many books on sports science, which I have paid upwards of $100 for which are also quite large.

It is 3 lbs 11 oz and 1 7/8" thick. This is not a book about pitching. It is a pitching reference book. You can read the Table of Contents and the book Preface by clicking on the link below.

Thanks for your patience.

Dick" - Dick Mills

http://www.pitching.com/page_selector.php?page=purchase

SSJChar

02-10-2006, 05:17 PM

im just starting to get into baseball and i want to get decent at being a pitcher, decent as in not even A, but better than joe schmoe. i havn't really even started pitching yet, so i dont even really have the basics down. I'm pretty interested in submarine pitching since its so unique and can be tricky to hit the first few times up at bat. should i first get good at an orthodox overhand pitch first, or can i learn submarine from the getgo? are there any dissadvantages to the submarine style pitch? byung-hyun kim can get into the 90s with his fastball, so speed doesn't seem to be an issue. is accuracy an issue with this style?
oh ya, I'm 22 so I'm not really young, and my physic is decently small, 5'8".

XFactor

02-10-2006, 05:39 PM

He can? Last time I remember he was in the upper 80's. But have you ever saw him pitch? He sucks! He isn't even in the Majors anymore is he? I should hope not...

Anyways.. it puts so much stress on your arm (more so then regular over hand 3/4 style or w/e pitching) that you'd be lucky to pitch like that until your 30... not many people can.

I would highly recommend that you do not pitch side arm, but if you wish to do so I can't stop you.

SSJChar

02-10-2006, 08:10 PM

hehe ya when i saw him on tv last season he was pretty inconsistant, thats why i was thinking perhaps accuracy was a problem, or if it was just him. good thing i asked about that style, i didnt know it was so stressful on the arm. i guess ill just go with a normal pitch.

XFactor

02-11-2006, 11:25 AM

Yeah, pitching is stressful, period. No matter what style you use, it's just some are more so than others. As long as you use correct mechanics (good timing, rythem, all that good stuff) you decrease the stress on your arm, but there is still some stress.

And when your working on what pitches to throw, I'd suggest going with a fastball (2 and 4 seam) and a change up. Those are relatively easy to learn and down right deadly when you master them.

Riverdog

02-11-2006, 04:50 PM

I didn't make it to the minors (close but not there) but friends did. Lots of guys in AAA are in the mid 90's. A buddy was throwing mid 90's with great stuff and a decent curve ball. He was unhittable in high school and did real well his first two years in the minors. When he hit AAA he found that a 95 mph fastball didn't get by any hitters at that level. He learned to throw a change up and got an invite up but blew his arm and is now selling used cars.
By the way, we coach and we use weighted balls in the bullpen but only on a limited basis. The players get the first 10 - 15 throws with the weighted ball from in front of the mound. It seems to loosen them up pretty good.
I also believe in the long toss improving velocity but if not coached properly it will just increase arm length and length of time on the DL.

XFactor

02-11-2006, 06:47 PM

Well at least you said "I also believe" instead of "I know it improves"
But yeah... mid 90's will only take you so far, you need a change in speeds and obviously good location and movement is a + too

tominct

02-11-2006, 07:19 PM

If you get to the Eteamz site listed above you will also find the following, Pretty interesting. Back to my old question, Now What?

Chris O'Leary wrote:
I have posted a breakdown of Mark Prior's motion to my web site...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_MarkPrior.pdf

Some things to pay attention to are...

1. Frame 22.1: Prior has his upper arms level with his shoulders (if not slightly above) and his forearms hanging down. This will cause him to experience a worse-than-average Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce and probably contributes to his worse-than average elbow problems. Cardinals prospect Anthony Reyes does the same thing and will probably experience the same problems.

2. Frame 40.1: This shows why some people say that Prior short-arms the ball. He first extends his arms (frame 11.1) and then flexes his elbow to bring the ball near his ear. The ball then flies around in a horizontal loops that places a lot of strain on his elbow.

3. If you want to see how Prior's forearm loops, start at frame 40.1 and then scroll down.

4. Regarding Dr. Marshall's comments about Prior's arm going backwards while his elbow is starting forward, see frame 62.1. He has started turning his shoulders in this frame.

Here we go again! Now Mark Prior doesn't have good mechanics? Doesn't Curt Shilling have similar arm action? Roger Clemens? The list is fairly long of pitchers whose mechanics are similar. I read some of the article referenced, and once Mike Marshall (who is a PH.d doctor, not a medical one BTW! I think this is a significant distinction) says "he's an idiot" he loses me completely. I don't listen to a-holes! Again, one person with ALL the answers. I have one of Tom House's books, and I have found it quite informative. that fact of the matter is is some pitchers get hurt, others don't. Simple as that.

Now, I have read many knocks on Dick Mills on in this thread. Is he again an authority? I once thought so, but then again, i though Hudgens was too, and I was universally ridiculed for that(even though I KNOW I learned a lot of good things from him...perhaps that speaks to me prior knowledge, so be it).

Tom

tominct

02-11-2006, 08:26 PM

Who is Chris O'Leary?

tominct

02-11-2006, 08:31 PM

ABOUT CHRIS O'LEARY

I am an internationally recognized author, speaker, and consultant in the areas of innovation, marketing, and new product development.

My consulting clients have included the Boeing Chairman's Innovation Initiative and the Boeing Leadership Center. I frequently speaks about the relationship between pain, change, and innovation to students in entrepreneurship, new product development, and marketing classes in the MBA programs of Washington University in St. Louis, St. Louis University, and the University of Missouri.

I have also served as a judge for Washington University's Olin Cup competition and has held seminars on elevator pitches and other subjects.

My writings have been featured on Garage.com and MarketingProfs.com.

I was a key member of the team that designed and built SalesLogix, the leading middle-market CRM system. SalesLogix grew from $0 to $100 million in annual sales in just 5 years and was sold to The Sage Group in 2001 for $263 million.

I have also worked for a number of other startups including Heuris and Tsunami Research.

Earlier in his career, I was a consultant for Cambridge Technology Partners, Ernst & Young, and Andersen Consulting.

Over the past few years, I have also become something of an expert in the area of baseball pitching.

Apparently has a double-jointed shoulder too, if not, he couldn't pat himself on the back with such regularity!

XFactor

02-28-2006, 09:39 PM

Hi everyone. Just a little update about Dick Mills new book.

"Books Are Shipping Out Today

The books arrived today from the printer. They are shipping out today.

They look absolutely awesome. Lots of positive comments. Even the bookbinder, the largest here in Phoenix was blown away by the size and weight.

They are shrink wrapped.

For those who ordered you are about to be enlightened finally with evideince that will dispel all the current pitching myths and the beliefs that have stopped thousands of pitchers from ever reaching their full potential.

99% of baseballs coaches at all levels have never read or heard of most of what is in this book under all the subject matter that is covered.

Our intention is to force baseball coaches to begin providing only evidence based information instead of all the faulty beliefs that are out there right now at all levels...including mechanics instruction, strength and conditioning as well as the psychology of pitching...all being taught as we speak at all 30 big league camps by those who are considered to be the best in the business.

The information contained in this book will put you at a knowledge level far and above those who are currently coaching baseball...at all levels.

This book will not only allow you to always be armed with good questions for coaches but with the scientific references to back up your answers.

You will now know how to evaluate any instructor to see if he is worth paying for, on whether a baseball clinic is worth it or not and finally to decide on which college program makes sense.

Enjoy.

Dick"

It should be very interesting to read and I encourage anyone who wants to become better informed with pitching to go out and buy it.