Think about this: Are Papi and Manny the best 1-2 punch since Gehrig and Ruth?

[Senor Octobre]

Time will tell I guess, but if these guys play together in for the next 3-5 years and put up 30+ dingers, 100+ ribbies, 30+doubles, high batting averages, etc, year in year out I think they're a serious threat. Maybe if they win another world series or two. Obviously not as great as Gehrig/Ruth, but the best since maybe?. I guess I've overlooked Mays and McCovey.

[leecemark]

--Mays/McCovey, Mathews/Aaron, Simmons/Foxx, Gehrig/DiMaggio, Martinez/Griffey (or Griffey/Rodriguez or any combination of the 3), Mantle/Maris in the short run or Mantle/Berra over a longer one. Probably at least several more if I thought about it some. I doubt they are/will be amoung the top 20 combos in history.

[MudvilleMike]

I think Papi and Pokey Reese are the best 1-2 punch of alltime. Papi and anyone :)

Seriously, Papi and Manny are about as good as it gets offensively.

[yes to bert & al!]

does mantle & maris say something?
how about canseco and mcgwire?

[FlashGordon]

how about canseco and mcgwire?If you like your athletes juiced, then why not?

[ElHalo]

If you like your athletes juiced, then why not?

Well, if you're a David Ortiz fan...

[VTSoxFan]

Well, if you're a David Ortiz fan...

Ooooh, EH... thin ice, thin ice...

David Ortiz cheerfully made his contribution to the tests, saying "There'll find nothin' in me but rice and beans."

[ElHalo]

Ooooh, EH... thin ice, thin ice...


Didn't mean to step on any toes.

Manny Ramirez is easily one of my favorite players in baseball, and I'd never say an unkind word about him. Something just strikes me as very, very fishy about Ortiz, though.

[efin98]

Ooooh, EH... thin ice, thin ice...

David Ortiz cheerfully made his contribution to the tests, saying "There'll find nothin' in me but rice and beans."

That the same Ortiz who also accused the test of being racist???

[Boston Boxer]

you guys are nuts to think Papi is juiced. Look at the bash brothers and then look at Papi. The bash brothers are built like Arnold and Papi is built like the dude on my softball team. Are you the same people who think Helton was on the juice? ludacrous

[BoSox Rule]

Ortiz never got bigger. He and Ron Jackson did a lot of work. Ortiz could never turn on the inside fastball. Now that he can...

Take other things into consideration other than a spike in his numbers, please :rolleyes:

[efin98]

Ortiz never got bigger. He and Ron Jackson did a lot of work. Ortiz could never turn on the inside fastball. Now that he can...

He was also injured while in Minnisota and hasn't missed many games due to health yet in Boston if at all. He also moved to a more hitter friendly park as well...

Take other things into consideration other than a spike in his numbers, please :rolleyes:

A victim of the era but he also had a foot in mouth moment brought about the possibilities when he complained about the tests. No one would have considered a link until he made the complaint...

[SoxSon]

Didn't mean to step on any toes.

Manny Ramirez is easily one of my favorite players in baseball, and I'd never say an unkind word about him. Something just strikes me as very, very fishy about Ortiz, though.


I know a lot of people say that you can just tell with guys.
I can just tell that Ortiz isn't on anything. He has perfected one swing for power, and I agree with BoSox...Jackson helped him immensely, by Ortiz's own admission.

[Biggerin]

I'm pretty convinced the only illegal substance you'd find in Manny's urine is a popular herbal remedy that will remain unnamed (occasional brain lapses in the outfield and basepaths, things that happened 5 minutes ago don't bother him because he seems to forget it ever happened, His zen-like approach to the batting box... fits the profile.)

Ortiz was tested and passed. I don't know about Manny.

As to the original question, I don't think there's any real way to absolutely say for sure, but I can tell you for sure that I'm not complaining.

[Biggerin]

A victim of the era but he also had a foot in mouth moment brought about the possibilities when he complained about the tests. No one would have considered a link until he made the complaint...


Ortiz has made that complaint about everything to do with spanish speaking players and the media as well, and he has a very valid point. The only steroids-related complaint that made me go "hmmm" was Nomar's back in the beginning of the whole thing.

[HDH]

They are the best 3-4 in the game today. Of all-time is always going to spark debate. Here's some other BoSox Reps.

Williams-Foxx
Rice-Lynn
Garciaparra-Vaughn

[MudvilleMike]

Something just strikes me as very, very fishy about Ortiz, though.

There are steroids that can make a player ultra-clutch? Interesting, Mr. Science.

[bake mcbride]

Look, Ruth and Gehrig were together for a very long time, and as leecemark mentioned earlier, tandems like Mays & McCovey, Aaron and Mathews, Foxx & Simmons, et al, were together and prolific for longer periods of time. I don't think you'd get too much criticism if you said Manny is a Hall of Famer, but Papi is not, although he's played like one the past two years, he started hitting this well at 27 in 2003, which may be too late to accumulate the numbers necessary for a DH to get in. I mean, let's face it, Ortiz is a monster, but his body doesn't suggest to me that he'll be able to dominate into his late thirties and maybe until he's forty. And let's not forget, Edgar is almost universally shot down for consideration as a DH so, there's that.

However, if these two can continue to do what they've been doing for another four of five years, I think they're right in the aforementioned company, but this much is certain, they're the most deadly one-two punch the game has seen in quite some time. Remember when Albert Belle signed with the ChiSox years ago and everyone thought he and Frank Thomas were going to do the Ruth/Gehrig thing but it never really materialized as expected? Well, Manny and Papi have done it, and man is it fun to watch.

[EvanAparra]

Well, if you're a David Ortiz fan...

Sour grapes.

I dont know how I fished this out, but I was just very surprised that after 2 years someone would compare these two to Ruth and Gehrig.

[DoubleX]

I think Manny and Ortiz's four year run has to be up there, though I'm sure there are some others though that could challenge Manny and Ortiz as best 1-2 punch since Ruth and Gehrig.

[The Kid]

Manny Ramirez is easily one of my favorite players in baseball, and I'd never say an unkind word about him. Something just strikes me as very, very fishy about Ortiz, though.

What is fishy about him, Elhalo? Is it the way he kills the Yankees on a regular basis? That's called talent, my friend. Talent, rice, and beans.

[hellborn]

Ortiz never got bigger. He and Ron Jackson did a lot of work. Ortiz could never turn on the inside fastball. Now that he can...

Take other things into consideration other than a spike in his numbers, please :rolleyes:
Ortiz claimed that the coaches in Minny encouraged him to concentrate on contact and hitting the ball the other way, even on inside stuff...to fight it off more than turning on it, so as to be less vulnerable to outside pitches. David was quite bitter about this treatment.
I think that Papa Jack came up with a slightly better approach, don't you?

[ChrisLDuncan]

What is fishy about him, Elhalo? Is it the way he kills the Yankees on a regular basis? That's called talent, my friend. Talent, rice, and beans.

Where was that "talent" back in Minnesota? He was just average there...I just don't think Ortiz is the hitter that Manny is. I think Manny made Ortiz, and I don't think there's much that can change my mind. I think he's good, but to be mentioning him amongst the greatest hitters ever is a reach in my mind.

Also the Bash Brothers were a great one/two punch.

[EvanAparra]

Where was that "talent" back in Minnesota? He was just average there...I just don't think Ortiz is the hitter that Manny is. I think Manny made Ortiz, and I don't think there's much that can change my mind. I think he's good, but to be mentioning him amongst the greatest hitters ever is a reach in my mind.

Also the Bash Brothers were a great one/two punch.

You should do a little more reading up on the subject -- only a couple posts ago. Ortiz wasn't allowed to hit in Minnesota the way he hits now. They wanted him to move runners over, to hit the ball the other way, to hit sac flies... or as Ortiz put it "they wanted me to hit like a b****."

I don't think Ortiz is better than Manny, but I mean really, how does one player MAKE another like that? Especially someone like Manny Ramirez. I'm surprised Manny can tie his own shoelaces, much less 'make' one of the best hitters in baseball over the last 5 years.

[Williamsburg2599]

Something just strikes me as very, very fishy about Ortiz, though.
Here's a comparison of Ortiz's swing in 2002 and 2004. As you can see, its gotten a lot better. He was trying to be a contact hitter with the Twins, but the Red Sox hitting coach (I forget his name..., he left this year) turned him around. At least I hope that's how it is:http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=9&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[ChrisLDuncan]

You should do a little more reading up on the subject -- only a couple posts ago. Ortiz wasn't allowed to hit in Minnesota the way he hits now. They wanted him to move runners over, to hit the ball the other way, to hit sac flies... or as Ortiz put it "they wanted me to hit like a b****."

I don't think Ortiz is better than Manny, but I mean really, how does one player MAKE another like that? Especially someone like Manny Ramirez. I'm surprised Manny can tie his own shoelaces, much less 'make' one of the best hitters in baseball over the last 5 years.

Well I know he changed his approach entirely, so now he's basically a pull hitter. However I think without Manny he doesn't put up the numbers he does now

[EvanAparra]

However I think without Manny he doesn't put up the numbers he does now

That's the same thing as saying 'without protection, he doesnt put up the numbers he does now.' Of course not. Everyone's numbers are going to fall if you take away their protection, that's a facet of the game, not the player.

[DoubleX]

Ortiz claimed that the coaches in Minny encouraged him to concentrate on contact and hitting the ball the other way, even on inside stuff...to fight it off more than turning on it, so as to be less vulnerable to outside pitches. David was quite bitter about this treatment.
I think that Papa Jack came up with a slightly better approach, don't you?

That's very interesting. A long time ago, there was a discussion on here in the history forum about whether Ted Williams would have been an even better hitter if he wasn't so stubborn and tried to go the other way sometimes. When you see a team put a big defensive shift on to play the pull, of course people wonder why not go the other way. But in that thread, I argued that perhaps trying to go the other way would take Ted out of his natural game. From experience (albeit on nothing close to a professional level), trying to go the other way is not always easy and it can really throw off a player's swing. If a player is just a natural pull hitter and is very good at it, might as well let them do what they do best instead of trying to tinker with their swing and their head. That might have been Ortiz's problem in Minnesota, especially given what you said, whereas in Boston, he was allowed to just swing away and do what comes natural.

Another factor for his enormous boost in Boston could be health. I believe he had some injury troubles in Minnesota, whereas he's been very healthy for Boston.

[hellborn]

That's very interesting. A long time ago, there was a discussion on here in the history forum about whether Ted Williams would have been an even better hitter if he wasn't so stubborn and tried to go the other way sometimes. When you see a team put a big defensive shift on to play the pull, of course people wonder why not go the other way. But in that thread, I argued that perhaps trying to go the other way would take Ted out of his natural game. From experience (albeit on nothing close to a professional level), trying to go the other way is not always easy and it can really throw off a player's swing. If a player is just a natural pull hitter and is very good at it, might as well let them do what they do best instead of trying to tinker with their swing and their head. That might have been Ortiz's problem in Minnesota, especially given what you said, whereas in Boston, he was allowed to just swing away and do what comes natural.

Another factor for his enormous boost in Boston could be health. I believe he had some injury troubles in Minnesota, whereas he's been very healthy for Boston.
Ted has written that it was, at least initially, very difficult for him to hit the other way. I also believe that he attributed part of his amazing success in 1957 to switching to heavier bats earlier in the year as an experiment, which he found allowed him to hit the other way with more success. After getting the defenses to spread out for him a little bit by hitting to all fields for a while, he switched back to his usual bat weight and mixed them up again with his standard pulling.
BTW, Papi does show outstanding power to LC, but he apparently almost never hits the ball on the ground that way, allowing teams to use the funky defenses. His HRs off Washburn and Gordon in the '04 playoffs were both shots over the Monster, one of them off the Volvo billboard. I wonder if they were trying to get him to hit the ball on the ground the other way in Minny, to take advantage of his blinding speed for easy singles??

[DoubleX]

BTW, Papi does show outstanding power to LC, but he apparently almost never hits the ball on the ground that way, allowing teams to use the funky defenses. His HRs off Washburn and Gordon in the '04 playoffs were both shots over the Monster, one of them off the Volvo billboard. I wonder if they were trying to get him to hit the ball on the ground the other way in Minny, to take advantage of his blinding speed for easy singles??

Giambi is very similar. Their power to LC might have to do with timing on that pitch (being late) and the nature of their swings (uppercuts?).

[PhilWings24]

He was also injured while in Minnisota and hasn't missed many games due to health yet in Boston if at all. He also moved to a more hitter friendly park as well...

this is true, but i will never stop my campaign to explain that boston is-overall- a bad hitter's park for lefties, or at least power-lefties. over the last 4 years it has had the worst power numbers for left handed batters of any park in the majors.

i am at least minorly suspicious of any slugger in baseball being a cheater, at this point, so i'm not gonna say there's no way papi has. but his character is not that of a cheater, neither is the pgrogression of his form/career. so i'd be barely short of stunned if he cheated. but like i said, i'm at least minorly suspicious of every slugger in baseball. that includes pujols, manny, papi, a-rod, andruw jones, everybody.

[PhilWings24]

BTW, Papi does show outstanding power to LC, but he apparently almost never hits the ball on the ground that way, allowing teams to use the funky defenses. His HRs off Washburn and Gordon in the '04 playoffs were both shots over the Monster, one of them off the Volvo billboard. I wonder if they were trying to get him to hit the ball on the ground the other way in Minny, to take advantage of his blinding speed for easy singles??

i've heard him say they were constantly pressuring him to become a line-drive hitter to all fields during his entire tenure in minnesota. he's said that he is very grateful to the red sox for letting him hit the way he feels most comfortable.

[DoubleX]

i am at least minorly suspicious of any slugger in baseball being a cheater, at this point, so i'm not gonna say there's no way papi has. but his character is not that of a cheater, neither is the pgrogression of his form/career. so i'd be barely short of stunned if he cheated. but like i said, i'm at least minorly suspicious of every slugger in baseball. that includes pujols, manny, papi, a-rod, andruw jones, everybody.

Why stop at sluggers? Look at the players that have been caught - lots of pitchers and some speedster type players. Other than Palmeiro, the players caught really haven't been sluggers. Everyone is suspect, IMO.

[-Kyle-]

Think about this, what are we gonna do when they both leave? Whenever they are both in this lineup we are gurranted not to be a terrible offensive team.

[Dogdaze]

Think about this, what are we gonna do when they both leave? Whenever they are both in this lineup we are gurranted not to be a terrible offensive team.

Well cross that bridge when we come to it. I think Manny will continue to be Manny wanting a trade etc. Will that ever happen? Who knows. Papi will be with us for as long as we want him.

I think Wily Mo Pena will be a slugger for the future (hopefully they don't trade him) and who knows maybe we will develop another slugger in the future. Plus theres the possibilty for free agent sluggers, Andrew Jones will be a free agent next year!

But for now we have probably the best one-two punch (slugger-wise) in the Major leagues. And for that I'm thankful!

[The Kid]

Well I know he changed his approach entirely, so now he's basically a pull hitter.

Not entirely. If you have watched closely last season, you can see that he has actually been driving the ball to left much more often, and has even gotten a walk-off from beating the shift some time in what I think was July.
He hit it right to were the shortstop should have been and won the game. Ortiz is not the pull hitter most belive him to be.

[cosmo34]

Not entirely. If you have watched closely last season, you can see that he has actually been driving the ball to left much more often, and has even gotten a walk-off from beating the shift some time in what I think was July.
He hit it right to were the shortstop should have been and won the game. Ortiz is not the pull hitter most belive him to be.

Exactly. I remember him talking about how Ron helped him go the other way when needed, and pull the ball when needed. It helped him rely on him hitting the ball where it was pitched, instead of directly trying to go one way or the other. (IE Minnesota)

[RichardLikeWhoa]

Didn't mean to step on any toes.

Manny Ramirez is easily one of my favorite players in baseball, and I'd never say an unkind word about him. Something just strikes me as very, very fishy about Ortiz, though.


HAHAHAH, you are joking...right?

[SoxSon]

HAHAHAH, you are joking...right?


I wanted to write a quick note to make sure some of you know you're responding to posts from the summer of 2005, so the likelihood of a response is probably slim. Wasn't sure if everyone was aware of that. :)

[jeterMVP]

maris/mantle

A-rod/griffey weren't to bad either

[Charger567]

maris/mantle

A-rod/griffey weren't to bad either


Maris, IMO is really overrated. He only had one season where he had more than 150 hits, the year he hit 61. If you are going to stand up for him and say he's a power hitter, the guy had less than 300 home runs. He was also a career .260 hitter.

Mantle was great, but it wasn't such a great combo with Maris.

A-Rod and Griffey were great, but I would still take Manny/Ortiz.

[DoubleX]

Maris, IMO is really overrated. He only had one season where he had more than 150 hits, the year he hit 61. If you are going to stand up for him and say he's a power hitter, the guy had less than 300 home runs. He was also a career .260 hitter.

Mantle was great, but it wasn't such a great combo with Maris.

A-Rod and Griffey were great, but I would still take Manny/Ortiz.

Maris in '60 and '61 put up an OPS+ of 161 and 167, winning the MVP both years. Ortiz, by comparison, has put up a 161 and 164 the past two years, which represents his two best years, so it's not very different than Maris at his best (and actually slightly behind Maris). Ortiz has strung together four consecutive years better than any of Maris' best four consecutive years as Maris struggled through injuries after '62, but at his best, Maris was every much the hitter Ortiz is and didn't need the DH to do it.

You also realize that Maris was a .260 hitter when the adjusted league average was .257? Ortiz is a .283 hitter, but with a significantly higher adjusted league average of .274. In a .274 world, Maris would be a .277. hitter. In a .257 world, Ortiz would be a .265 hitter. Not much difference really between the two here. Maris' number also factors in his decline, which not only came during a period when Maris was injured, but also came during one of the worst offensive eras ever, so making a judgment here based on raw BA is very misleading.

In terms of power, Maris had a 122 adjusted slugging, while Ortiz is at 126 but again, this doesn't factor in Ortiz's decline, which is still yet to come (albeit, probably after a few more years of escalation). So again, not much difference here.

And then you have to figure the other side of the combination. Manny is an terrific hitter, among the very best of his generation, but for as good as Manny has been, which is tremendous, Mantle was better. So given that Mantle > Ramirez, and Maris = Ortiz at best, I think this goes to Mantle/Maris based on peak, but Ramirez and Ortiz on longevity.

EDIT: Longevity, even if it's just 4 years, has actually been what has set Ramirez and Ortiz apart from the other duoes in this conversation. Most of the other great duos weren't able to string together 4 strong consecutive years like Ramirez and Ortiz have, often due to injury. For example, Gehrig and DiMaggio didn't get there because of Gehrig's disease. Mantle and Maris didn't get there because both missed a great deal of time in 1963. Ken Griffey Jr and Edgar Martinez, while having several great seasons together, had their run interrupted by Martinez's injuries in the early 90s and Griffey's injury in 1995. Then there is Ted Williams and Jimmie Foxx in which Foxx was traded during their fourth season together. Albert Belle and Manny Ramirez and Jim Thome is another example, but Belle left the Indians before Ramirez or Thome could string together four consecutive really strong seasons. So it's actually been extremely rare for teammates to string together four consecutive offensive campaigns like Ramirez and Ortiz have. I'm going to think about it some more, but you might have to go back to Ruth and Gehrig to find another such example.

[DoubleX]

I was wrong, Ramirez and Ortiz do not really stand out due to longevity as much as I thought they did, and they aren't even the best this decade (that honor goes to Albert Pujols and Jim Edmonds). I've dug up 25 other duos dating back to the beginning of the lively ball era; 22 of which played together almost entirely healthy for at least 4 years (same amount as Ramirez and Ortiz) and were just about as good or better than Ramirez and Ortiz have been as measured by combined average OPS+ during their four years together. The other three are duos that played together for just three years, but were pretty darn impressive for those three years. I've probably missed some three year duos because I wasn't really looking for that, so please feel free to add if you can think of any.

Here are the 25 duos and their combined average OPS+. I've listed them by length of consecutive peak and healthy years together and I tried to list the better hitter first. Also keep in mind the that longer a duo is together, the more difficult it is to sustain production (and thus Ramirez/Ortiz do not look as impressive as some of these other combinations).

Three Year Duos
Ted Williams/Jimmie Foxx (Red Sox, 1939-1941): 172 Average OPS+
Mickey Mantle/Roger Maris (Yankees, 1960-1962): 170 Average OPS+
Lou Gehrig/Joe DiMaggio (Yankees, 1936-1938): 156 Average OPS+

Four Year Duos
Rogers Hornsby/Jim Bottomley (Cardinals, 1923-1926): 163 Average OPS+
Joe DiMaggio/Charlie Keller (Yankees, 1939-1942): 162 Average OPS+
Johnny Mize/Joe Medwick (Cardinals, 1936-1939): 162 Average OPS+
Manny Ramirez/David Ortiz (Red Sox, 2003-2006): 156 Average OPS+
Edgar Martinez/Ken Griffey Jr (Mariners, 1996-1999): 155 Average OPS+
Frank Robinson/Boog Powell (Orioles, 1968-1971): 151 Average OPS+
Joe DiMaggio/Bill Dickey (Yankees, 1936-1939): 150 Average OPS+

Five Year Duos
Albert Pujols/Jim Edmonds (Cardinals, 2001-2005): 163 Average OPS+
Jimmie Foxx/Al Simmons (Athletics, 1928-1932): 161 Average OPS+
Harry Heilmann/Ty Cobb (Tigers, 1921-1925): 160 Average OPS+
Mickey Mantle/Yogi Berra (Yankees, 1952-1956): 153 Average OPS+
Edgar Martinez/Alex Rodriguez (Mariners, 1996-2000): 151 Average OPS+
Larry Doby/Al Rosen (Indians, 1950-1954): 150 Average OPS+

Six Year Duos
Manny Ramirez/Jim Thome (Indians, 1995-2000): 154 Average OPS+
Jimmie Foxx/Mickey Cochrane (Athletics, 1928-1933): 154 Average OPS+

Seven Year Duos
Willie McCovey/Willie Mays (Giants, 1965-1971): 160 Average OPS+
Willie Mays/Orlando Cepeda (Giants, 1958-1964): 153 Average OPS+
Roberto Clemente/Willie Stargell (Pirates, 1966-1972): 153 Average OPS+

Eight Year Duos
Harmon Killebrew/Tony Oliva (Twins, 1964-1971): 148 Average OPS+
Mel Ott/Bill Terry (Giants, 1928-1935): 148 Average OPS+

Nine Year Duos
Babe Ruth/Lou Gehrig (Yankees, 1926-1934): 196 Average OPS+
Hank Aaron/Eddie Mathews (Braves, 1955-1963): 157 Average OPS+

Given this info, I'd almost definitely rank the following duos ahead of Ramirez/Ortiz:

Babe Ruth/Lou Gehrig
Hank Aaron/Eddie Mathews
Willie McCovey/Willie Mays
Albert Pujols/Jim Edmonds
Jimmie Foxx/Al Simmons
Manny Ramirez/Jim Thome
Willie Mays/Orlando Cepeda
Roberto Clemente/Willie Stargell
Ted Williams/Jimmie Foxx
Mickey Mantle/Roger Maris

It would then be very close with these duos:

Joe DiMaggio/Charlie Keller
Johnny Mize/Joe Medwick
Rogers Hornsby/Jim Bottomley
Harry Heilmann/Ty Cobb
Harmon Killebrew/Tony Oliva
Mel Ott/Bill Terry
Joe DiMaggio/Lou Gehrig
Edgar Martinez/Ken Griffey Jr

And I would definitely have Ortiz/Ramirez ahead of these duos:

Jimmie Foxx/Mickey Cochrane
Mickey Mantle/Yogi Berra
Edgar Martinez/Alex Rodriguez
Larry Doby/Al Rosen
Frank Robinson/Boog Powell
Joe DiMaggio/Bill Dickey

So of the 24 pairs I identified, I'm thinking that Ramirez/Ortiz, based on their four years together, are ranked somewhere between 11th and 19th.

[hellborn]

I was wrong, Ramirez and Ortiz do not really stand out due to longevity as much as I thought they did, and they aren't even the best this decade (that honor goes to Albert Pujols and Jim Edmonds).
...
So of the 24 pairs I identified, I'm thinking that Ramirez/Ortiz, based on their four years together, are ranked somewhere between 11th and 18th.

Wow! Great work! This is really interesting and impressive!!!
:clapping

[DoubleX]

Wow! Great work! This is really interesting and impressive!!!
:clapping

Thanks. I've added one pair since last night - Rogers Hornsby and Jim Bottomley.

One thing that Ramirez/Ortiz have going for them over a number of the pairs is balance. A number of the pairs are really carried by just one player in the pair, whereas Ramirez and Ortiz are closer to even. Hornsby/Bottomley is a good example. Their combined average OPS+ was 163, but Bottomley's average during that span is just 140 and his personal high during that span was 154, so Hornsby is really the driving force in that combo. Though, that is something I tried to consider when I was thinking about which pairs I'd put ahead of Ramirez and Ortiz, and I'd still say I'd put at least about a dozen ahead of them.

[EvanAparra]

Even though its obvious they aren't the best since Ruth and Gehrig, that's still very good company to be in! :clapping

[Charger567]

Maris is very overrated in my eyes.. If it weren't for that one 61 HR season, he wouldn't be so hot. He never even came close to .300, and averaged about 110 hits a season..

[DoubleX]

Maris is very overrated in my eyes.. If it weren't for that one 61 HR season, he wouldn't be so hot. He never even came close to .300, and averaged about 110 hits a season..

I think Maris for his career is generally overrated and I don't understand those who call for him to be in the Hall. But for two seasons, he was truly a tremendous player, and was still a pretty good player for four seasons after that (and a couple before), but his raw statistics are hindered because he had to fight through injuries. A lot of people also think that the stress he endured in pursuing the record really affected him as a ballplayer after '61 as well. IMO, if not for the injuries and the reported stress that affected his play, I think his career and statistics would look a lot like Reggie Smith's, which is pretty good.

Also, Maris' 162 game averages, aren't that bad either, especially considering the era: .260, 30, 94.

[GiambiJuice]

Maris is very overrated in my eyes.. If it weren't for that one 61 HR season, he wouldn't be so hot. He never even came close to .300, and averaged about 110 hits a season..

OK, Red Sox fan.

[Williamsburg2599]

OK, Red Sox fan.
Stats don't pick sides, and they don't lie. Your telling me a .260 career average, 1,325 hits, 275 HRs and 851 RBIs are HOF numbers??? He had one great season, and about 4 or 5 above average ones.

[EvanAparra]

OK, Red Sox fan.

Has nothing to do with being a Red Sox fan, he is just plain overrated by anyone that thinks he is a HOFer. He had two amazing seasons. Another pretty good one in '63 and the rest were not hall of fame quality. You dont put a guy with 3 HOF seasons in the hall. Even Koufax had more than 3, and they were better pitching seasons than Maris' were hitting.

[EvanAparra]

Stats don't pick sides, and they don't lie. Your telling me a .260 career average, 1,325 hits, 275 HRs and 851 RBIs are HOF numbers??? He had one great season, and about 4 or 5 above average ones.
'60 and '61 were both equally good, IMO.

[DoubleX]

Stats don't pick sides, and they don't lie. Your telling me a .260 career average, 1,325 hits, 275 HRs and 851 RBIs are HOF numbers??? He had one great season, and about 4 or 5 above average ones.

He's no Hall of Famer, but he was great in both '60 and '61 and was a pretty good to good player in '58-'59 and '62-'64. Injuries limited his effectiveness, but other than hitting for average, he pretty much do everything else well during that 7 year stretch. He's not a Hall of Famer, but he's a far cry from being a one hit wonder. Again, his 162 averages of .260, 30, 94 are fairly impressive considering his era. I really think if not for injuries and the stress he was reported to have experienced from breaking the record in '61, his career would have looked a lot like Reggie Smith's - though that still wouldn't get Maris into the Hall, just close.

[GiambiJuice]

Has nothing to do with being a Red Sox fan, he is just plain overrated by anyone that thinks he is a HOFer. He had two amazing seasons. Another pretty good one in '63 and the rest were not hall of fame quality. You dont put a guy with 3 HOF seasons in the hall. Even Koufax had more than 3, and they were better pitching seasons than Maris' were hitting.

When you find somewhere that I wrote that Maris is a hall of famer, please let me know.

[EvanAparra]

When you find somewhere that I wrote that Maris is a hall of famer, please let me know.

When you find where I said you wrote he was a HOFer, let me know.

[SoxSon]

When you find somewhere that I wrote that Maris is a hall of famer, please let me know.


If you're going to come into the Red Sox forum, GiambiJuice (which I highly encourage), please remember your manners. "Ok, Red Sox fan" isn't an effort towards discussion; it's only an effort towards labeling, which isn't ok here.

[DoubleX]

If you're going to come into the Red Sox forum, GiambiJuice (which I highly encourage), please remember your manners. "Ok, Red Sox fan" isn't an effort towards discussion; it's only an effort towards labeling, which isn't ok here.

Ok, Red Sox fan.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :p

In all seriousness, Giambijuice, SoxSon is right. Please be more respectful in the Sox forum. You can find a lot of tremendous discussion in here, but it all begins with respect.

[SoxSon]

Ok, Red Sox fan.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :p



I was just waiting for it, basically. ;) :p

[GiambiJuice]

I apoligize if I came off as condescending or disrespectful.

I just think that Maris gets less respect than he should BECAUSE he broke the biggest record in sports (does that make any sense?) and the rest of his career didn't come close to matching his great peak.

Does anyone remember that he won the MVP in 1960 as well and that he was a tremendous defensive player?

He also made a game-saving play in Game 7 of the '62 World Series.

His great career was stalled due to injuries and by no means is he a hall of famer, but what he accomplished in 1961, against all odds and tremendous adversity should not be written off from our consciousness and disrespected just because some juiced up machines have since broken his record.

Once again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I respect the Red Sox and their fans and it's not like me to be that way. I just felt that one of my favorite players was getting trashed unfairly and I reacted.

[Sliding Billy]

I just think that Maris gets less respect than he should BECAUSE he broke the biggest record in sports (does that make any sense?) and the rest of his career didn't come close to matching his great peak.

I'm a Red Sox fan and, except that I'm withholding judgment on the juiced up machines, I agree with your post completely. Also, Maris wasn't a guy who was supposed to break Ruth's record, and the press wreaked its revenge afterwards.

[Charger567]

The "Ok, Redsox Fan" basically implied that my opinion on Maris was baised because he was on the Yankees. Which I found strange, because you even admit that he was overrated (or atleast shouldn't have been a HoF'er.)

[SoxSon]

I apoligize if I came off as condescending or disrespectful.

Once again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I respect the Red Sox and their fans and it's not like me to be that way. I just felt that one of my favorite players was getting trashed unfairly and I reacted.


Thanks, GiambiJuice. Very cool for you to post this.

[GiambiJuice]

The "Ok, Redsox Fan" basically implied that my opinion on Maris was baised because he was on the Yankees. Which I found strange, because you even admit that he was overrated (or atleast shouldn't have been a HoF'er.)

He's not in the Hall of Fame, and his name doesn't come up all that often unless people are talking about the home run record. To my knowledge he hasn't gotten much support for the Hall, and he's never mentioned together with the greats of his generation like Mays, Mantle, and Aaron. How is Roger Maris overrated?

[EvanAparra]

He's not in the Hall of Fame, and his name doesn't come up all that often unless people are talking about the home run record. To my knowledge he hasn't gotten much support for the Hall, and he's never mentioned together with the greats of his generation like Mays, Mantle, and Aaron. How is Roger Maris overrated?

Because he is mentioned very often as someone who should be in the hall.

[DoubleX]

He's not in the Hall of Fame, and his name doesn't come up all that often unless people are talking about the home run record. To my knowledge he hasn't gotten much support for the Hall, and he's never mentioned together with the greats of his generation like Mays, Mantle, and Aaron. How is Roger Maris overrated?

Maris actually received fairly decent support from the BBWAA for the Hall. He stayed on the ballot for 15 years and finished at 43.09%. Normally, a player with his kind of career would most likely have been bounced from the ballot from the start, but the support he received from the writers really shows how far '61 and his two MVPs went (of course, two MVPs probably won't help someone like Juan Gonzalez from mustering much support).

I also think Maris is one of those quirky players that tends to either be underrated or overrated. The underrating crowd thinks he was a one-hit wonder and all he had was '61 and wasn't a particularly good or skilled ballplayer outside of that. The overrating crowd believes that a couple of great years means that Maris had a great career and was a great player. The truth is probably much closer to the middle. Maris did have a couple of great years and several pretty good ones, and was legitimately a very talented player who was plagued by injuries and in his case, the misfortune of breaking Ruth's record. I really think that as a ballplayer, his abilities and potential were very similar to Reggie Smith, which is certainly good company, though still not quite Hall of Fame.

I actually think had Maris hit less than 50 homeruns in '61 and not had to deal with the stress of chasing Ruth and racing the chosen-boy Mantle, his career as a whole would have looked much better, but that he'd probably have received much less support for the Hall and be remembered much less fondly today.

[GiambiJuice]

Maris actually received fairly decent support from the BBWAA for the Hall. He stayed on the ballot for 15 years and finished at 43.09%. Normally, a player with his kind of career would most likely have been bounced from the ballot from the start, but the support he received from the writers really shows how far '61 and his two MVPs went (of course, two MVPs probably won't help someone like Juan Gonzalez from mustering much support).

I also think Maris is one of those quirky players that tends to either be underrated or overrated. The underrating crowd thinks he was a one-hit wonder and all he had was '61 and wasn't a particularly good or skilled ballplayer outside of that. The overrating crowd believes that a couple of great years means that Maris had a great career and was a great player. The truth is probably much closer to the middle. Maris did have a couple of great years and several pretty good ones, and was legitimately a very talented player who was plagued by injuries and in his case, the misfortune of breaking Ruth's record. I really think that as a ballplayer, his abilities and potential were very similar to Reggie Smith, which is certainly good company, though still not quite Hall of Fame.

I actually think had Maris hit less than 50 homeruns in '61 and not had to deal with the stress of chasing Ruth and racing the chosen-boy Mantle, his career as a whole would have looked much better, but that he'd probably have received much less support for the Hall and be remembered much less fondly today.

You've made some very good points and I agree with most of them.

Not to say that two wrongs make a right, does anyone here believe that Bill Mazeroski would have made the HOF if not for one swing of the bat in 1960? I know he was a tremendous defensive player, but there is NO WAY he woulda gotten in without that homerun. At least Maris had a historic season and not one historic hit.

Truth be told, there are players in the hall who are probably less deserving than Maris (Rizzuto is another one IMO). But that's not a reason to put him in. I just don't think he's been overrated. He didn't deserve to make it. But based on his accomplishments and other players who made it in, he did deserve SOME consideration.

[chudddds]

If you like your athletes juiced, then why not?


Or if you like your athletes that are all WHITE, Why not? !!!


Wonder what Ruth and Gehrig's numbers would have been with black opposing players ?!?!? Or any non-whites for that matter !!!

[EvanAparra]

Or if you like your athletes that are all WHITE, Why not? !!!


Wonder what Ruth and Gehrig's numbers would have been with black opposing players ?!?!? Or any non-whites for that matter !!!

Oh please, thats pretty ridiculous. Yeah, if 5% of the pitchers they were facing would have been black they would have totally sucked... :rolleyes:

[DoubleX]

Or if you like your athletes that are all WHITE, Why not? !!!


Wonder what Ruth and Gehrig's numbers would have been with black opposing players ?!?!? Or any non-whites for that matter !!!

I'm big on the argument that the accomplishments of all Major Leaguers prior to integration are diluted because they did not play against the best talent available. Would the stars of the day still be the same and look as good as they did if they competed against the minority talent? It's doubtful - look no further than the influx of African-American stars in the 1950s and 1960s - the equivalents of these players likely existed in the 1920s and 1930s, but unfortunately never got to see them in the Majors.

Nevertheless, the chances are, even in an integrated league, the cream would still rise to the top, and Ruth and Gehrig were the cream of the Major Leagues when they played. Their offensive production was just so far and away dominant in their time that even in an integrated league, they both still would almost definitely have been among the very best players of the time. Granted, they might not have stood out quite as much or looked quite as dominant, but they'd still be well up there. Ruth and Gehrig were just so good in the context of their time, that throwing in a small percentage of higher quality players into the league would likely not have that great of an effect on Ruth's and Gehrig's producton and status. What would have been more greatly affected would be the quality of the average Major Leaguer, which would have been improved if the league was integrated, and as a result, stars like Ruth and Gehrig would likely not deviate from the mean quite as much as they did because the mean would be a little higher. There would also be a different set of stars of the day as a lot of the second tier white stars would be more afterthoughts as some their star status would be occupied be superior African-American players. In this respect, I'm thinking of guys like Edd Roush, Pie Traynor, Jim Bottomley, Heinie Manush, Joe Sewell, Rabbit Maranville, Chuck Klein, Joe Medwick, Hack Wilson, Earl Averill, and the like. I think most of these guys would still be perceived as good players in an integrated, but perhaps not as much so as they were in their white only league. However, that too wouldn't much affect Ruth and Gehrig, because again, they were so far and above everyone else that even in an integrated league, they'd still likely be among the very best players in the game, and still likely by a large margin (though they'd probably share that distinction with guys like Oscar Charleston and Josh Gibson).

Also, on the converse, you could ask how Manny and Ortiz would fare in the much, much larger ballparks that were used back when Ruth and Gehrig played.