Would you support it

[tonypug]

If a womans baseball league started, would you go to games? Professional womans softball has struggled, would baseball fare better. It's taken awhile, but the WNBA has started to do better. Would MLB have to help, like the NBA is doing with the WNBA?

[Knick9]

For sure I would, of course the majority of female players would play small ball, but I'd enjoy it definately. Now here comes probably the hard part... how do you schedule the games for "WMLB"/"AAGPBL2" if we are assuming that the female teams play where the men play also? Doubleheader for some? Hopefully that would be sorted out.

Yeah, I believed if women played hardball it would be more fun. A true test with a baseball. ;)

Now, just don't form a rivalry between the New York Yankettes and the Boston Pink Sox. :laugh

[Benetto00]

I mainly watch Baseball games for the excitment of denfensive plays. I am sorry girls but No Way. :ughh


Hey Knick9, it's an insult to a Dodger fan you like the Giants. Pick one or the other man, thats a joke. :evil

[CuriousBoston]

That's women, not girls. In the greater Boston area, I think a women's team would do very well. When WMLB is founded, I'm sure the Red Sox organization would start a team that would do very well.

[tonypug]

That's women, not girls. In the greater Boston area, I think a women's team would do very well. When WMLB is founded, I'm sure the Red Sox organnization would start a team that would do very well.
Thats the problem, to be successful it would have to have the support of MLB. I 'm not sure if Bud and the boys would give that support.

[CuriousBoston]

Since I voted in a poll that Selig was the worst thing in baseball... Let's assume, fantasize, that people come to their senses, and Selig ends up in jail. Then someone with INTEGRITY, AND A LOVE OF BASEBALL, could be in charge. I nominate a committee consisting of the Baseball Fever Mods.

[pads4ever]

THAT is exactly what I said before in another thread. The Commissioner could be the Commissioner.......petition anyone?

[sandlot]

I say to hell with MLB. What have they done for women in baseball? And besides pick up great players out of a number impoverished banana republics, what have they done -- I mean really done -- over the decades to better the lives of people in the places off which they've made a ton of money? Believe me, as basketballer Yao Ming has already learned painfully, when the time comes in the not-too-distant future that professional players start arriving from China, you can bet your bottom renminbi that MLB will start learning the true meaning of "payback." In the meantime, if women want to play pro ball, they should just do it and love it. When MLP's troglodyte management begins to smell a dollar, you can be sure they'll come around. And if they don't, well, just "Play Ball!" I'll be there. To see why, please look at my post elsewhere on this site about the woman who struck out Ted Williams.

[zman]

Sure. I used to watch alot of PGA and LPGA events. I see a difference in physical strength between the men and women but not so much in actual skills. I think watching Annika Sorenstam is just as exciting as watching Tiger Woods. It took many years for the LPGA to attain the high quality of play you see today and I imagine the same would be true for baseball.

[zman]

When WMLB is founded, I'm sure the Red Sox organnization would start a team that would do very well.

Oh! Implying that the Yankees organization wouldn't? Let the rivalry begin! :D

[JACKIE42]

If a womans baseball league started, would you go to games? Professional womans softball has struggled, would baseball fare better. It's taken awhile, but the WNBA has started to do better. Would MLB have to help, like the NBA is doing with the WNBA?

Only if there were a team named, the Brooklyn Dodgerettes.

[spooliegirl]

:) absolutely. if they played real baseball in real uniforms not mini skirts.

[west coast orange and black]

I say to hell with MLB. What have they done for women in baseball?...i second, sandlot.
this is exactly what i was gonna post. you totally stole my thunder.

i would support and watch here in the san francisco bay area -- as long as the league is not the wnl or wal.
women's sports do not need to hang onto the shirttails of men's sports.

"lady bulldogs" and "lady dons" is just horrible. as is the "women's national basketball association."
why does pro basketball have the "nba" for men and the "wnba" for women?

the "w" is a subtle yet very real reminder that women are continually put second/behind/below.

[bluezebra]

i second, sandlot.
this is exactly what i was gonna post. you totally stole my thunder.

i would support and watch here in the san francisco bay area -- as long as the league is not the wnl or wal.
women's sports do not need to hang onto the shirttails of men's sports.

"lady bulldogs" and "lady dons" is just horrible. as is the "women's national basketball association."
why does pro basketball have the "nba" for men and the "wnba" for women?

the "w" is a subtle yet very real reminder that women are continually put second/behind/below.

What utter paranoia. The league is called the WNBA, because the NBA underwrites them. Unfortunately, women's pro sports cannot support themselves. Just look at the "crowds". Many high schools draw more. The average "fan" compares the women's game with the men's in ALL sports. If people would just accept the women's game for what it is, and not make these ridiculous comparisons, the women might stand a chance.

Bob

[soflacrushplayer]

Hi Everyone! I'm new to Baseball Fever.

As a player on a women's baseball team here in South Florida, I would definitely participate in and support it. We're making arrangements to play in the Women's World Series 5 at Disney in October.

I'm a graphic designer and I even created a WMLB logo. If you put it next to the MLB logo, it will look like she is pitching to him. I tried to upload it, I hope I did it right.

Kim

[tonypug]

Hi Everyone! I'm new to Baseball Fever.

As a player on a women's baseball team here in South Florida, I would definitely participate in and support it. We're making arrangements to play in the Women's World Series 5 at Disney in October.

I'm a graphic designer and I even created a WMLB logo. If you put it next to the MLB logo, it will look like she is pitching to him. I tried to upload it, I hope I did it right.

Kim

Welcome Kim,It's good to hear from a woman currently playing. What type of league do you play in? Do you think there are enough women playing competitive ball to form a league?

[soflacrushplayer]

Welcome Kim,It's good to hear from a woman currently playing. What type of league do you play in? Do you think there are enough women playing competitive ball to form a league?

Thanks for the welcome. Right now, we are not in a league. We practice for tournaments. Plans have begun to form a league for next year. There is another women's team in Ocala, but it's too far to travel to play on a regular basis.

I think there is enough women to form a league. There are alot of teams around the country and Canada.

[west coast orange and black]

What utter paranoia. The league is called the WNBA, because the NBA underwrites them. Unfortunately, women's pro sports cannot support themselves. Just look at the "crowds". Many high schools draw more. The average "fan" compares the women's game with the men's in ALL sports. If people would just accept the women's game for what it is, and not make these ridiculous comparisons, the women might stand a chance.

Bobmy point is not whether or not the women's league can make it on its own without being underwritten. and it is not about comparing the women's game with the men's. to the contrary, the wnba does the comparing by labeling themselves as "women's" league... while the men's league does no such thing.
will we ever have an environment where no such distinction must be present?
and if that's too much to ask, then how 'bout if just every once in a while it's "bobcats" for the women and "guy bobcats" or "male bobcats" or whatever for the men?
why must it always be the women who must have an added label? a special distinction? that is my point.
i do not suffer from a pychotic disorder. i do not have delusions of persecution. i just wonder why it's the women who are put behind the men.

[tonypug]

The cable college sports are showing alot o womans sports. In order to get TV dollars an affiliation with MLB would be necessary. The reason the Wnba has gotten a real chance on TV is their affiliation with the NBA It may not be right, but it is necessary in order to get exposure.

[Bluesteve32]

They show a fair amout of womens beach volleyball, don't they? ;)

[JACKIE42]

They show a fair amout of womens beach volleyball, don't they? ;)

I don't think a womens baseball team would wear those outfits. ;)

[Knick9]

Uh-oh, you fellow gentlemen are gonna get it! :laugh

Anyway, would scheduling of WMLB games be a problem? And how big of a problem would it be? I hope that it won't be but wierder things have happened. I'd assume that the women play along side with the men in the same ballpark but then the scheduling questions would come into play.

Any other ideas about how this could get started?

[Bluesteve32]

I don't think a womens baseball team would wear those outfits. ;)

True.

If a women's baseball league did form, how many would have to convert from softball? Secondly, MLB must be involved, like the WNBA is involved with the NBA, and start with no more that 8 teams, two divisions (east and west) and spread them throughout the country. New York, LA, Chicago, St Louis, SF-Oak, Atl, Dal or Houston, Boston, Phily, DC-Balt would all be possibilities.

Possibly play in domes or warm weather during the off season (winter) if you don't want to use major or minor league venues during the season. I don't think the MLB ballparks would work as most would be too big, at this point in time. Just posssibilities.

[soflacrushplayer]

True.

If a women's baseball league did form, how many would have to convert from softball?

A lot of women who play baseball now converted from softball. I still play softball. So conversion wouldn't be such a big deal.

[calhalo]

If a women's baseball league did form, how many would have to convert from softball? Secondly, MLB must be involved, like the WNBA is involved with the NBA, and start with no more that 8 teams, two divisions (east and west) and spread them throughout the country. New York, LA, Chicago, St Louis, SF-Oak, Atl, Dal or Houston, Boston, Phily, DC-Balt would all be possibilities.

Possibly play in domes or warm weather during the off season (winter) if you don't want to use major or minor league venues during the season. I don't think the MLB ballparks would work as most would be too big, at this point in time. Just posssibilities.

I would think the startup league would have to be more close knit than sprawling. Maybe a throwback to the old PCL (LA Angels, HWD Stars, SF Seals..etc...but avoid the Portland Beavers :D ) or the original womens league to generate more natural rivalries. Use minor league or high quality amateur parks on the West Coast where the weather is almost always nice.

Personally I dont think womens baseball would work. Softball is unique enough to be its own entity, but female baseball would be redundant with all the minor/independent league baseball around.

[Bluesteve32]

Frankly, I tend to concur. It would seem a natrual to make a women's high caliber professional softball league, but I really don't see a lot of fans coming out to make it profitable, sorry to say.

[calhalo]

Frankly, I tend to concur. It would seem a natrual to make a women's high caliber professional softball league, but I really don't see a lot of fans coming out to make it profitable, sorry to say.
No kidding considering theres already one right now and the sports biggest star Jennie Finch is playing in it. The problem there I see is that they play in hand-me-down fields and the franchises are all over the country for such a small/young league. Judging by the relative hotness of the College WS Softball chicks (who could turn pro if there was money in it), I think it could work if the league was better controlled and promoted.

As for women and baseball....I think Ichiro-like slaphitting good fielding women could make it in the bigs. The social, locker-room thing is a whole different matter though. Also, might need some type of elite academy or new Silver Bullets team to train potential women candidates to compete with guys.

[west coast orange and black]

...In order to get TV dollars an affiliation with MLB would be necessary...absolutely, tony. you are right about the necessity of television.
and in the end, it comes down to money.

[tonypug]

absolutely, tony. you are right about the necessity of television.
and in the end, it comes down to money.
If MLB supported professional softball they would have a much better chance for success. The softball college world series has done much better since ESPN started televising it. There is an absolute need for exposure, there is also a need for deep pockets, Any startup league in any sport is going to lose money at first, and that is where MLB comes in. Mlb teams control most of the ballparks both in the majors and minor leagues. Minor league parks such as the ones in Brooklyn and Staten Island for instance would be good venues for WMLB teams. It really could work, but it would take a lot of time and money.

[tonypug]

A lot of women who play baseball now converted from softball. I still play softball. So conversion wouldn't be such a big deal.
The toughest conversion would be in pitching. All the other positions, you basically do the same things just with a different size ball. Having enough quality pitching might be a problem.

[Knick9]

I don't consider softball a true challenge for women, though I'm not against them playing it. Why do women have to be limited to softball? Women playing hardball is what I'd see more. As for the pitching, the women don't have to change their windup, that's fine, but overhanded would be good, too.

The first years of WMLB would be like any rebuilding year for any MLB club, but in time the hardball talent would be polished. Pitching overhanded can be adjustable, plus I wouldn't worry about Steroids.

[VTSoxFan]

...Judging by the relative hotness of the College WS Softball chicks (who could turn pro if there was money in it), I think it could work if the league was better controlled and promoted.

Did I just read this, on this enlightened board? Please tell me I'm taking this out of context, but is the gist of this an idea that women's pro ball (baseball or softball) could only get by if the "chicks" are "hot"? What in the name of Annabel Lee has that to do with their athletic skills and talent?

Good grief. How medieval.

[tonypug]

Did I just read this, on this enlightened board? Please tell me I'm taking this out of context, but is the gist of this an idea that women's pro ball (baseball or softball) could only get by if the "chicks" are "hot"? What in the name of Annabel Lee has that to do with their athletic skills and talent?

Good grief. How medieval.
That's just one persons opinion.

[calhalo]

Did I just read this, on this enlightened board? Please tell me I'm taking this out of context, but is the gist of this an idea that women's pro ball (baseball or softball) could only get by if the "chicks" are "hot"? What in the name of Annabel Lee has that to do with their athletic skills and talent?

Good grief. How medieval.
I'd have to dismiss most of that as a holier-than-thou hatchet job, but it does raise oppurtunities to expand upon some things.

Nowhere did I indicate talent was superfluous in a womens league. My example was the College World Series. If your sport can be populated by higher educated, attractive players, at the highest competetive levels....how is that not something you'd factor in publicizing a startup league?
Guys who would not normally follow the sport would if they took 'special interest' in some of the players. Is this no different than the 'Jeters a hottie' teenyboppers or how womens tennis has benefited from Kournikova and Sharapova?

More to the point:
If we can concede that mens baseball is the highest caliber of play available, what will sell a womens league if it wont be on comparable level?

The WNBA is a unique case. The inability to dunk might be a detraction, but basketball purists would enjoy it because the womens game is more fundamentally sound (virtually all the players are college grads) and the ball moves around the key more quickly. Theres a market for it that is not relgated to "its womens basketball".

But what is the baseball equivalent?
What can womens baseball bring that the MLB currently lacks, excluding gender?

Its why I think Softball would work but baseball wouldnt. Jenny Finch mowing down major leaguers in TWIB with the windmill seems like ideal publicity. Finding the 60ft 6in overhand equivalent of that, and enough of them to populate a league, and at some point a womens league becomes redundant.

[tonypug]

I'd have to dismiss most of that as a holier-than-thou hatchet job, but it does raise oppurtunities to expand upon some things.

Nowhere did I indicate talent was superfluous in a womens league. My example was the College World Series. If your sport can be populated by higher educated, attractive players, at the highest competetive levels....how is that not something you'd factor in publicizing a startup league?
Guys who would not normally follow the sport would if they took 'special interest' in some of the players. Is this no different than the 'Jeters a hottie' teenyboppers or how womens tennis has benefited from Kournikova and Sharapova?

More to the point:
If we can concede that mens baseball is the highest caliber of play available, what will sell a womens league if it wont be on comparable level?

The WNBA is a unique case. The inability to dunk might be a detraction, but basketball purists would enjoy it because the womens game is more fundamentally sound (virtually all the players are college grads) and the ball moves around the key more quickly. Theres a market for it that is not relgated to "its womens basketball".

But what is the baseball equivalent?
What can womens baseball bring that the MLB currently lacks, excluding gender?

Its why I think Softball would work but baseball wouldnt. Jenny Finch mowing down major leaguers in TWIB with the windmill seems like ideal publicity. Finding the 60ft 6in overhand equivalent of that, and enough of them to populate a league, and at some point a womens league becomes redundant.
Womens baseball would also be a different game. You would't see the pletora of home runs you see in MLB. Therefore the running game, bunting, and steressing defense would be the name of the womens game. There is room for both genders in baseball, you just have to be open minded.

[calhalo]

Womens baseball would also be a different game. You would't see the pletora of home runs you see in MLB. Therefore the running game, bunting, and steressing defense would be the name of the womens game. There is room for both genders in baseball, you just have to be open minded.
I would be open to it, (I've tried to keep track of womens baseball developments since I got into baseball) but I doubt a league based upon smallball would have mass appeal when there an alternative. The Babe proved that point. And that is my overall point. Its not male chauvinism*...its the fact I honestly dont see a market for it that I do for softball. High caliber softball usually plays like smallball with low scores and situational hitting (since they cant steal).

* Now that I read it, that other post may be construed as sexist. 'Chick' is my default term for college-aged females who are to old to be called girls and too young to be called women (which has a gray haired connotation). Experience has shown me this hits the middle ground perfectly. :cool:

[VTSoxFan]

I certainly didn't mean to come across as 'holier than thou.' I was rather taken aback by the (unintentional) chauvinistic connotation of the equating of the success of a women's league with, among other things, the "relative hotness of the chicks" participating.

As a woman I do watch baseball with an eye to another aspect of the game that I assume most guys don't pay attention to -- yes, I often do admire the view -- but I don't talk about it on BBF because most of the members here are guys and wouldn't appreciate it, and it also has nothing whatever to do with my appreciation of The Game itself. I can appreciate Randy Johnson's pitching (well, last season, anyway :rolleyes: ) despite the fact that he's uglier than a hedge fence in the moonlight. I appreciate Jason Varitek's play as well as his physiognomy. I love Baseball, despite the "relative hotness of the guys" who play. It's The Game that matters, and if the play is good, they could all look like Errol Flynn or like Lon Chaney. It wouldn't matter to me. Unfortunately, I can see why such a totally irrelevant aspect of women's baseball might make or break a new league. :(

Incidentally, women's tennis was popular in the days of Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova -- neither one exactly pinup material.

[calhalo]

Time to be a downer...the list of defunct womens leagues:

Baseball:
All American Girls Professional Baseball League (1943-1954)

Basketball:
American Basketball League (1996-1998)
Womens Basketball Associatoin (1993-1995)
Women's American Basketball Association (1984)
Women's Basketball League (1978-1981)

Softball:
Women's Professional Softball League (1997-2001)
International Women's Professional Softball Association (1976-1980)

Soccer:
Women's United Soccer Association (2001-2003)

Volleyball:
United States Volleyball League (2002)
National Volleyball Association (1996-1998)
Professional Volleyball League (1996-1997)
Major League Volleyball (1987-1989)
International Volleyball Association (coed) (1975-1979)
Tennis (co-ed):
World Team Tennis (1974-1978)

Football:
Women's Football Association (2002-2003)
American Football Women's League (2002)
Women's Affiliated Football Conference (2002)
Women's Spring Football League (2002)
Women's American Football League (2001)
-------------
The AAGPBL was the longest lived and probably the best organized before it became decentralized. But the teams were only in the midwest. This goes back to my earlier suggestion that a startup league would have to be confined to a geographic region (old PCL), prove its business model, then expand.

Incidentally, women's tennis was popular in the days of Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova -- neither one exactly pinup material.
Annika Sorenstam IS the LPGA, and shes not a looker. But f Michelle Wie grows up to be babely, and starts cleaning up in PGA events....thats the best of both worlds.

As a woman I do watch baseball with an eye to another aspect of the game that I assume most guys don't pay attention to -- yes, I often do admire the view -- but I don't talk about it on BBF because most of the members here are guys and wouldn't appreciate it, and it also has nothing whatever to do with my appreciation of The Game itself. I can appreciate Randy Johnson's pitching (well, last season, anyway ) despite the fact that he's uglier than a hedge fence in the moonlight. I appreciate Jason Varitek's play as well as his physiognomy. I love Baseball, despite the "relative hotness of the guys" who play. It's The Game that matters, and if the play is good, they could all look like Errol Flynn or like Lon Chaney.
This does bring up my earlier post when I asked:
"If we can concede that mens baseball is the highest caliber of play available, what will sell a womens league if it wont be on (a) comparable level?"

..since you're using an all-time player like Randy Johnson instead of some lower level stiff as an example.

There will always be a double-standard here. If a women breaks DiMaggios streak or hits .400 in the female league, the impact will be dimished because it wasnt against the 'top players'. Just like the majority of MLB fans couldnt really care about Sadaharu Oh's 868 hrs. Or if Ichiro's pro baseball hits were all added up to 3,000...but he only had 1,800 MLB hits. But eventually just like Japanese players, the standout female players would naturally matriculate into the MLB.....unless the commish voids (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/2005/050402.htm) their contracts.

[tonypug]

Calhalo, you could make the same size list for failed mens leagues. Every new league starts off on uncertain ground. It needs exposure and enough money to stay operating while it takes hold. Most of the failed sports leagues went under because of under funding. In this day and age you need a major corporate sponser, for womens baseball, that would be MLB. I myself don't think it would be redundant,the womans game would be played differently. The point is if the financing could be found, it would be up to the general public whether it lasts, and thats really all anyone is asking.

[CuriousBoston]

was ripped to bits for pointing out that sexism is very real, still exists, is a major factor in women's sports. It is a major factor in women's lives. Any male that does not believe this has not sat down with an adult woman, had a serious talk.

My examples of what I experienced were dismissed as comparing myself to a professional ball player, I was dismissed as having a chip on my shoulder. I do not believe there was another woman posting in the thread. One person did post he showed part of the thread to his girlfriend, and her reaction was very negative.

Posting a list of failed female sports organizations proves nothing. They could have failed due to the same reasons as male dominated organizations fail, or maybe there were not enough "chicks".

[west coast orange and black]

Its not obvious if there is no history of success here.totally different areas.

the action of watching televised sports stands alone, without care to the outcome of the game or of even the league itself.

[CuriousBoston]

Its not obvious if there is no history of success here.

Time to be a downer...the list of defunct womens leagues:

Baseball:
All American Girls Professional Baseball League (1943-1954)

Basketball:
American Basketball League (1996-1998)
Womens Basketball Associatoin (1993-1995)
Women's American Basketball Association (1984)
Women's Basketball League (1978-1981)

Softball:
Women's Professional Softball League (1997-2001)
International Women's Professional Softball Association (1976-1980)

Soccer:
Women's United Soccer Association (2001-2003)

Volleyball:
United States Volleyball League (2002)
National Volleyball Association (1996-1998)
Professional Volleyball League (1996-1997)
Major League Volleyball (1987-1989)
International Volleyball Association (coed) (1975-1979)
Tennis (co-ed):
World Team Tennis (1974-1978)

Football:
Women's Football Association (2002-2003)
American Football Women's League (2002)
Women's Affiliated Football Conference (2002)
Women's Spring Football League (2002)
Women's American Football League (2001)
-------------
The AAGPBL was the longest lived and probably the best organized before it became decentralized. But the teams were only in the midwest. This goes back to my earlier suggestion that a startup league would have to be confined to a geographic region (old PCL), prove its business model, then expand.


Annika Sorenstam IS the LPGA, and shes not a looker. But f Michelle Wie grows up to be babely, and starts cleaning up in PGA events....thats the best of both worlds.


This does bring up my earlier post when I asked:
"If we can concede that mens baseball is the highest caliber of play available, what will sell a womens league if it wont be on (a) comparable level?"

..since you're using an all-time player like Randy Johnson instead of some lower level stiff as an example.

There will always be a double-standard here. If a women breaks DiMaggios streak or hits .400 in the female league, the impact will be dimished because it wasnt against the 'top players'. Just like the majority of MLB fans couldnt really care about Sadaharu Oh's 868 hrs. Or if Ichiro's pro baseball hits were all added up to 3,000...but he only had 1,800 MLB hits. But eventually just like Japanese players, the standout female players would naturally matriculate into the MLB.....unless the commish voids (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/2005/050402.htm) their contracts.

She's using RJ as an example of an *UGLY* male. That's it.

[CuriousBoston]

For sure I would, of course the majority of female players would play small ball, but I'd enjoy it definately. Now here comes probably the hard part... how do you schedule the games for "WMLB"/"AAGPBL2" if we are assuming that the female teams play where the men play also? Doubleheader for some? Hopefully that would be sorted out.

Yeah, I believed if women played hardball it would be more fun. A true test with a baseball. ;)

Now, just don't form a rivalry between the New York Yankettes and the Boston Pink Sox. :laugh

A "true test with a baseball. Wink" Condescending.

Cutsey names. Laugh.

How can this topic be discussed seriously with someone who has this mindset? In the Gender thread, I was told to get the chip off my shoulder, here Vt has been told to get off her high horse.

If the males here are not willing to accept the opnions and life experiences of adult females that love baseball..

[CuriousBoston]

I mainly watch Baseball games for the excitment of denfensive plays. I am sorry girls but No Way. :ughh


"Girls" can't play defensive baseball? I could list a few instances the past week where a male player couldn't hang onto a ball he caught. Or didn't go back far enough, the ball went over his head. Or a Philly play where the shortstop crossed in front of the second baseman, so no play could be made. Or more than once, a ball dropping among three players, or two players crashing heads.

So, is this a function of physically ability, training, or thinking?

Gotta rest my typing fingers....I haven't reached "babely" yet. Gheesh...

[CuriousBoston]

my point is not whether or not the women's league can make it on its own without being underwritten. and it is not about comparing the women's game with the men's. to the contrary, the wnba does the comparing by labeling themselves as "women's" league... while the men's league does no such thing.
will we ever have an environment where no such distinction must be present?
and if that's too much to ask, then how 'bout if just every once in a while it's "bobcats" for the women and "guy bobcats" or "male bobcats" or whatever for the men?
why must it always be the women who must have an added label? a special distinction? that is my point.
i do not suffer from a pychotic disorder. i do not have delusions of persecution. i just wonder why it's the women who are put behind the men.

Well said. Exactly.

[calhalo]

Calhalo, you could make the same size list for failed mens leagues.
Of course I could, but what can be gained by listing an XFL or a USFL when the NFL has about a century of history behind it? Clearly mens football can succeed. Same thing with Baseball and Basketball.


Every new league starts off on uncertain ground. It needs exposure and enough money to stay operating while it takes hold. Most of the failed sports leagues went under because of under funding. In this day and age you need a major corporate sponser, for womens baseball, that would be MLB.
That would follow the WNBA business model, so theres a point of reference. I could see it work if you could closely tie in existing rivalries and fanbases together. Dodger fans would root for the LA female team against the Frisco team and vice versa. ML stadiums could be used on off-days. But if its a hands-off relationship with the MLB ('yeah, we subsidize it but distance ourselves from it'), I could see it going nowhere.

I myself don't think it would be redundant,the womans game would be played differently.
What do you think it would look like?
There is the potential to softballize it (like the early AAGPBL) by shrinking the field, aluminum bats, ball sizes....but theres other questions.
Will the pitching quality stink and there will be hit parades?
How large a pitching rotation/playing schedule?
Will it be smallball?
Juiced balls for HRs?
Stadium size and (therefore) atmosphere?
Centralized league with trades made for parity? Free agency?

If it follows the WNBA, 'parent club' model...team names?

Lady Dodgers, Lady Nationals
or goofynamers, Crushers, Attackers,
or PCL/asexual LA Angels, SEA Pilots, HWD Stars

She's using RJ as an example of an *UGLY* male. That's it.
The example reinforced the point I was making.

[VTSoxFan]

The point I was making is that the physical appearance of the players should be totally irrelevant. The comeliness or homeliness of the players is completely beside the point and shouldn't even be part of the equation. There's no way I would ever say that the success or failure of a men's sport is dependent in part on how "hot" the players are, because, really, if you think about it, it really doesn't make any sense. If a woman comes onto BBF and makes comments about how hot this guy looks in his tight uniform... wouldn't the guys here all roll their eyes in disgust? So when the tables are turned, why are we women said to be acting "holier-than-thou" for reacting in the same manner?

If you want, I'll use a "lower level stiff" as an example of a less-than-perfect-looking player I can appreciate. I can admire the defensive skill of Kevin Youkilis. No Adonis, he, but a good player. Do I turn my back on him because he has a chin like a cowcatcher?

See? It should be irrelevant. It is irrelevant. It's skill that matters -- not looks.

The question remains -- could the average guy appreciate the skill of a woman baseball player if she could match Youkilis play for play, but looked like him, with a prominent chin, close-set eyes and a tree-trunk of a body? (Now I have a mental picture of Youk in drag and it's really too much!)

[CuriousBoston]

Now that I have your attention. VtSox and I love baseball. MLB baseball. Minor leagues, pickup games, any games. Now, we are also Red Sox fans. (Stay with me here.) It is *illegal* for us, our nieces, any female we know, to play professional baseball. Female umpires are run out of town before they ever get a chance. She and I have watched this all our lives, FOR LONGER THAN 86 YEARS FEMALES HAVE BEEN WATCHING THIS!

Now, she typed calmly, picture all females in MLB, from players, to umpires, to owners, to scouts, etc. Picture that it was illegal for males to play professional baseball. Picture that technically, female umpires are allowed, but not *really* allowed. Picture loving the sport as 98% of us here do. Then picture being told you are on a "high horse", or have a "chip on your shoulder" when you post REALITY.

We cannot express years of life experience in a post. We cannot explain the feeling you get as you are growing up, and realize you will never, ever, see a female playing MLB. Or you learn the stories of a few female umpires.

Most of you are making an effort. Surely you can understand when it takes a few posts to make the "it doesn't matter what they look like" point clear?

Babely? Babely? You want females to play on a professional level, be babely, and, I suppose, be virgins, too. C'mon, "babely". Post "like a man".

This thread is almost as bad as watching he-who-shall-not-be-named walking away from Pedro.

[SoxSon]

Why "girls" gymnastics? If you are watching 99% of performances on tv, you are watching men and women. Semantics is not petty. Words have meaning. Words reveal a mindset. How can this topic be discussed when a person has it in their mind that female gymnasts are girls because of their appearance.


CB: You know me, and I wouldn't dare start something with you! :p
But (and forgive my ignorance about gymnastics)...isn't it "girls" who are performing? I mean, literally, "girls"? I thought the average age was around 14?

[calhalo]

Babely? Babely? You want females to play on a professional level, be babely, and, I suppose, be virgins, too. C'mon, "babely". Post "like a man".

When I originally posted this, I hadnt yet judged the tenor of the board. I assumed people would take it with a bit of levity at the least, and at the most concede that it has always been a relevant point. That idealistic people (admirably well populated in this topic thread) would rather ignore it dosent make it irrelevant. Its why I think most of the female leagues have folded. No marketing plan, and too much faith that the product would sell itself. In some way or another, everything needs to be marketed effectively to the masses.

Aesthetic presentation in sports is not exclusively sexist. Its no different from the 'no-hair' rules by the Reds, Dodgers, and now only(?) the Yankees. Looks and presentation has always mattered. Since the womens league would be brand new, it would matter more in the beginning than it would once its established. You can't put the cart before the horse when developing a fanbase.

Pointing out male chauvinism exists, and therefore would need to be placated in some way to create a successful womans league....does not make me a chauvinist. 'The Yankettes'....yeah, thats not my cup of tea.

And no, I dont want virgins in the league. I want the sluttiest sluts in the history of slutdom. None more sluttier, and the ultimate in slutosity.

The question remains -- could the average guy appreciate the skill of a woman baseball player if she could match Youkilis play for play, but looked like him, with a prominent chin, close-set eyes and a tree-trunk of a body? (Now I have a mental picture of Youk in drag and it's really too much!)

Lets put it in non-Youkilis, Angelcentric ways:

Ugly woman player hits like Vlad = yes
Ugly woman player hits like Erstad = yes
Ugly woman player hits like DaVanon = iffy

Hot woman player hits like Vlad = yes
Hot woman player hits like Erstad = yes
Hot woman player hits like DaVanon = yes...but only play in blowouts
Hot woman player hits like a corpse = yes...but only play as a defensive sub.

Thats my best approximation of 'the average guy'.


(I have no mental picture of a corpse in an Angels uniform trying to hit.....yet....






....oh...there it is......


it was more humourous than I thought. The arms snap off mid-swing.)

[CuriousBoston]

CB: You know me, and I wouldn't dare start something with you! :p
But (and forgive my ignorance about gymnastics)...isn't it "girls" who are performing? I mean, literally, "girls"? I thought the average age was around 14?

We are talking Olympic gymnastics, right? We are talking men and women. We are talking about people who spend 18 hour days perfecting themselves in their sport. It's called WOMEN'S GYMNASTICS. MENS GYMNASTICS.

You call the males men, without question. But it's girls, without question. Fourteen year olds can make babies. The average age is going down. Now, don't anyone give me c*** about these women not having enough body fat to make babies.

[CuriousBoston]

When I originally posted this, I hadnt yet judged the tenor of the board. I assumed people would take it with a bit of levity at the least, and at the most concede that it has always been a relevant point. That idealistic people (admirably well populated in this topic thread) would rather ignore it dosent make it irrelevant. Its why I think most of the female leagues have folded. No marketing plan, and too much faith that the product would sell itself. In some way or another, everything needs to be marketed effectively to the masses.

Aesthetic presentation in sports is not exclusively sexist. Its no different from the 'no-hair' rules by the Reds, Dodgers, and now only(?) the Yankees. Looks and presentation has always mattered. Since the womens league would be brand new, it would matter more in the beginning than it would once its established. You can't put the cart before the horse when developing a fanbase.

Pointing out male chauvinism exists, and therefore would need to be placated in some way to create a successful womans league....does not make me a chauvinist. 'The Yankettes'....yeah, thats not my cup of tea.

And no, I dont want virgins in the league. I want the sluttiest sluts in the history of slutdom. None more sluttier, and the ultimate in slutosity.



Lets put it in non-Youkilis, Angelcentric ways:

Ugly woman player hits like Vlad = yes
Ugly woman player hits like Erstad = yes
Ugly woman player hits like DaVanon = iffy

Hot woman player hits like Vlad = yes
Hot woman player hits like Erstad = yes
Hot woman player hits like DaVanon = yes...but only play in blowouts
Hot woman player hits like a corpse = yes...but only play as a defensive sub.

Thats my best approximation of 'the average guy'.


(I have no mental picture of a corpse in an Angels uniform trying to hit.....yet....






....oh...there it is......


it was more humourous than I thought. The arms snap off mid-swing.)

Annie, you take this one. The boy from Paw that is legally blind in one eye is shaking off Tek. Here: (handing over brickbat) you're gonna need this...

[calhalo]

Annie, you take this one. The boy from Paw that is legally blind in one eye is shaking off Tek. Here: (handing over brickbat) you're gonna need this...
Cute.








...not really. More like smarmy.


.....and DaVanon just hit a HR in a blowout against Seattle. :laugh

[VTSoxFan]

CH, doncha see, by saying that you'd watch a "hot" woman play badly, you are proving my point? This is disregarding skill in favor of physical appearance. That's not appreciating the sport -- and that's what this thread was ostensibly about.

The skill of the players, and skill ALONE should be the deciding factor in whether or not a sport is worth watching. I wouldn't care if a guy looked like Brad Pitt, or Will Smith, or Adonis -- if he played badly, then he wouldn't be worth the boos we'd shower him with. I want to see guys who can play well, and if he looks like Eddie Guardado, then so be it. More power to him.

Using CB's analogy, suppose you were forbidden from participating in a sport at the professional level; your sons were discouraged from participating in it as children, and it would be unthinkable for you to be attached to the sport you love except in an impersonal office job. Say, you'd be allowed to be your favorite team's lawyer, but that's as close as you could get. Any ambitions you might have to take part in a game, even at fantasy camp, would be met with snickers, guffaws and crude jokes about your masculinity and lack thereof. Think about going to the ballpark, and watching BP, and wanting so badly to get out there on the grass and play the game...out of the question. Don't even think about it. Even if you could play... you can't.

Then what, pray tell, would you feel if the fans of the game you love relented a little, and said "sure, I wouldn't mind guys playing, but only if they're studly." "I wouldn't mind seeing an ugly guy play, but only if he hits .375." "I could watch a great-looking guy play, even if he was really bad."

Not only is this denigrating to the players, this is denigrating to the Game itself. Placing skill secondary to appearance... *shakes head* I can't make it any clearer than this, and if you can't see it... well, then, I'm sorry for you.

[VTSoxFan]

CB, I certainly don't mean to contradict you -- and I'm not, really. But in regard to the female gymnasts, the pixie-shaped ones with muscles like a horse -- yes, they are technically mature women, but in many cases, their exercise regimens and stringent diets, which have been forced upon them in some cases since the age of 2 or 3, disrupt the hormonal processes in their bodies so that a lot of them really don't reach physical puberty until they are 15 or 16 years old. So technically they are still "girls" while participating in a "women's" sporting event.

Gynmastics, like ballet, may look graceful, but is really quite brutal.

[CuriousBoston]

CB, I certainly don't mean to contradict you -- and I'm not, really. But in regard to the female gymnasts, the pixie-shaped ones with muscles like a horse -- yes, they are technically mature women, but in many cases, their exercise regimens and stringent diets, which have been forced upon them in some cases since the age of 2 or 3, disrupt the hormonal processes in their bodies so that a lot of them really don't reach physical puberty until they are 15 or 16 years old. So technically they are still "girls" while participating in a "women's" sporting event.

Gynmastics, like ballet, may look graceful, but is really quite brutal.

Yes, that's true. Soxson would get it, but I am truly puzzled by the lack of understanding, even the lack of *effort* to understand. Hmmm. Sign up for fantasy camp using only first initial? Email Steinberg about a fantasy camp for females? Start a scholarship fund for females for umpire school?

Or lay in a supply of inflatable and brickbats?

Guys are going to laugh at the above. I agree with you; and doubt even 10% partially understand what we tried to explain.

[VTSoxFan]

Upon re-reading the recent posts in this thread, I see that one level, CH, you do get what we're driving at. You know what we mean, and call it idealism. Well, then, maybe I'm an idealist.

I also see your point that this is far from ideal world; otherwise there wouldn't be the "need" for a women's sport to be "marketed" like a lite beer in order to draw in the kind of guys who only watching for the jiggle factor. It's a very sad commentary on gender relations, isn't it?

There's the gulf between the two: men's sports are promoted for the sake of the sports. Women's sports are promoted in part with an eye toward the attractiveness of the players -- and that is what's wrong.

The Yankees' ban on facial hair isn't the same thing at all; such rules are based on the whims of the owners, and are not used as a promotional tool. Doesn't anyone else just cringe when reading the original rules of appearance and behavior for the AAGBBL? :eek: Imposing such appalling and condescending strictures on men would be unthinkable. Of course such strict rules could never be imposed on women now, but there would still be that undertone of "you'd better be a looker if you want to make it."

CB-- Sure, give Steinberg a jingle, let him know that there are a lot of women serious about The Game, and not just because we enjoy the view. Would I like to see if I could really play a carom off The Monster, or see if I can really throw the ball farther than Johnny Damon? If I could afford to go, I think it'd be great -- as long as things weren't watered down. I've even got my own mitt! The Red Sox organization has been an enlightened member of the community under the new ownership; no reason why they shouldn't bring enlightenment to women's baseball as well. Who knows? It might turn things in the right direction.

[tonypug]

I think with any new league, there is an initial curiosity factor, which will draw peoples attention. After that wears off, if the game is played with skill a number of people will continue to follow that sport. That is the fan base that has to be built on. The XFL was nothing but exploitation, and drew huge numbers at first, then fell flat on it's face. Womens professional baseball would have to be developed, and would I believe be successful but it will take time. Would some watch just for the sex factor, yes, but that is inevitable, sad but inevitable. At the same time true fans would also be cultivated. The key ingredients are money and time, and the money would buy the time.

[calhalo]

CH, doncha see, by saying that you'd watch a "hot" woman play badly, you are proving my point? This is disregarding skill in favor of physical appearance. That's not appreciating the sport -- and that's what this thread was ostensibly about.
The initial curiosity phase is where you do 'The Hot Chick On Your Local Team' selling campaign. If 10 guys watch only to see the supermodel-looking star player pitch, lets say 5 will be impressed and become a fan of the league. But if the same 10 guys had no idea there was anything to attract them to yet another brand of baseball...say 4 had enough curiosity factor to see if there were 'hot chicks', and only one of those remained a fan....the numbers (dont) add up fror success.

Basically what I'm saying is, to hell with the ideals until you have a stable league where you can then promote those ideals. When I used the phrase 'dont put the cart before the horse', I thought I was being clear enough. Once the league was established, you wont need the 'sex sells' campaign.

And who says you have to be "disregarding skill in favor of physical appearance"?
http://www.rbgc.net/teamusa.jpg
If the top caliber softball players in the country are this 'aesthetically agreeable', image wont be a problem in a womens league. The question is.....will the league be sold initially to accentuate this? You seem against this, whereas I view it as short-term crap for long term benefits. Pioneers rarely have it easy. The only thing I see with your concern is if its up to an attractive or an unshapely woman with equal ability and personality for the last utility spot.
The Yankees' ban on facial hair isn't the same thing at all; such rules are based on the whims of the owners, and are not used as a promotional tool.
Of course its the same thing. And since those whims last(ed) the entire length of their ownerships, thats not very whim-like. I'd call it an image marketing strategy (by old-fashioned geezers).

[soflacrushplayer]

Sign up for fantasy camp using only first initial? Email Steinberg about a fantasy camp for females?

Why would we need a separate fantasy camp for us?

I attended the Marlins fantasy camp with four other women this past January and two of us even took home awards. I won the Best Personality/Best Hustle award, and the other woman won the Gold Glove award. We weren't treated like we were fragile little things. And it damn sure didn't matter what we looked like. As soon as the other 40 guys saw that we brought our "A" game, they knew they had to step it up.

[Lil_D-backs_fan]

I am new to this topic but after reading what all you ladies have to say I find myself in agreement with Calhola. Some really good points are made and the argument is a good one. Really in the long run we would have to start a females baseball team with the "Hot chick" idea in no way am I saying that you have to be hot to play but it would help the game out in the early stages. In the movie Gena Davis is not ugly and if you recall almost all the women cast for the movie had the "hot chick" idea going for them. Look I would watch a Ladies baseball team just like I watch the WNBA but we as women know that its a hard world out there and its not men that we fight with. We are up against other women. We need to find a way to work together and make a real difference in the baseball community.

[tonypug]

I am new to this topic but after reading what all you ladies have to say I find myself in agreement with Calhola. Some really good points are made and the argument is a good one. Really in the long run we would have to start a females baseball team with the "Hot chick" idea in no way am I saying that you have to be hot to play but it would help the game out in the early stages. In the movie Gena Davis is not ugly and if you recall almost all the women cast for the movie had the "hot chick" idea going for them. Look I would watch a Ladies baseball team just like I watch the WNBA but we as women know that its a hard world out there and its not men that we fight with. We are up against other women. We need to find a way to work together and make a real difference in the baseball community.
I would think in any large group of women athletes, there are going to be some good looking women. Of course that wouldn't hurt the marketing of the league. I just don't think a womens league should be marketed strictly on sex appeal.

[SoxSon]

Really in the long run we would have to start a females baseball team with the "Hot chick" idea in no way am I saying that you have to be hot to play but it would help the game out in the early stages.

Well, I'm going to go against my own gender here...(and, apparently, one woman as well). :eek:

I think it is the false expectation by too many men that woman automatically equal sex on some level that is the problem. The fact that the "hot chick" idea might "help the league in the early stages" is the male audience's problem and fault, not the players', and I can see no benefit in the long run from the players and/or the league promoting "looks" on any level, purposely or not.
I think the main reason that female players' looks might unfortunately help gain attention to the league at first is because too many guys have grown to expect the effort.

[DownUnderDodger]

Annika Sorenstam IS the LPGA, and shes not a looker. But f Michelle Wie grows up to be babely, and starts cleaning up in PGA events....thats the best of both worlds.

Annika Sorenstam is LPGA the same as Tiger Woods was PGA a couple of years ago. She has won a few tournaments this year and is undoubtedly the best, however the future of women's golf could not look rosier, with the likes of youngsters Paula Creamer, Lorena Ochoa, Brittany Lang, Natalie Gulbis, to name a few coming to the fore.

A couple of people have said that the extent of TV coverage has a large bearing on the popularity of a sport at the highest level. If the sport gets a lot of media support it will succeed, if it does not it will struggle. From what I see from afar, College sport (basketball, football) is very popular because a) it is highly supported by the college fraternity itself, and b) it is gets lots of media/TV coverage. It also seems to have lots of financial backing! For female baseball to succeed at such a level it will need lots of media/TV coverage and lots of financial backing. Is that coverage/backing viable?

Watching American Sports stations ESPN & Fox, I have never seen Women's baseball, nor softball on TV, even though the inaugural World Softball Cup has just concluded, with Japan winning in a huge upset, beating USA 3-1 in the final and Australia gaining bronze beating China 7-1. The World Softball Cup received 3 small paragraphs in our paper, and purely because Australia got bronze! Women's Basketball and Golf get reasonable coverage on ESPN & Fox and that exposure gets the sponsors and hence strengthens the level of the sport!

[brewcrew82]

I would most definately watch a womens baseball league if one was to be created, I love watching softball but there is something abut baseball that I love even more...I would think that for a womens major league to get off the ground initially it would have to go under the banner of MLB, simply because Major League Baseball has the money to be able to pump into the sport during its infancy (face it, whether its mens or womens sports, no league has sold out a boat load of games in its inception, and the first couple of years are usually a struggle on the limited finances of a league) and market the league to the general public.

Whilst I'm on my rant I'll get into the touchy subject of looks etc, from a marketing standpoint they'll be beneficial for a league to market its "hottest" looking players (even male oriented sports to garner interest from female fans by advertising their better looking athletes) to garner a more widespread appeal. Ultimately, its the quality of he play that would spell success or failure for the league. The looks of the players would get the audience but the quality of the play will keep the fans coming through the turnstyles/ turning on their TV's.

[YankeesCatcher]

I don't think a womens baseball team would wear those outfits. ;)

It'd be insanely awesome if they did :p

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

I would love to see a womens league. If the focus were put on to defense and moving runners over, I would watch every game i could. It would be like an entire league of the Marlins of 03'. I would love to see a gane where Home Runs dont rule all, and the average score is below 7-5. They could also start off on the right foot on the steroids issue and avoid that kind of contreversy alltogether.

[tonypug]

With all this steroid stuff putting a cloud over MLB, might it not be the time for them to take the heat off itself and possibly start generating interest in a womens baseball league. Seems to me they could use some good publicity for a change.

[echy88]

I can't say I would. There is already a lot of baseball to keep up with, this would just make more to have to follow.

[sandlot]

... in regard to the female gymnasts, the pixie-shaped ones with muscles like a horse -- yes, they are technically mature women, but in many cases, their exercise regimens and stringent diets, which have been forced upon them in some cases since the age of 2 or 3, disrupt the hormonal processes in their bodies so that a lot of them really don't reach physical puberty until they are 15 or 16 years old. So technically they are still "girls" while participating in a "women's" sporting event. Gynmastics, like ballet, may look graceful, but is really quite brutal. Excuse a personal note, but as author of the first article published anywhere (that I know of) calling into question the precocious-pixie cult that had taken over what once truly was women's gymnastics, I can't let this topic go by. These pixies are not technically mature women -- sadly. They are, as you go on to suggest, actually kids who've been pushed to accomplish technical feats prematurely. Brutal is one description of what's being done to them, and the training regime is indeed brutal, but it's more complicated: On one hand, it's deliberate infantilization; on the other, it's the promotion of unnaturally early development. Achieving the latter results in the former. You either have girls (by any definition) being developed way beyond their bodies' years, or you have young women whose hormonal development is stunted by excessive training to achieve a certain "look" irrespective of the long-term damage to the athlete herself. Why is this done? To pander to judges' predipositions. Nadya's pigtails looked cute when she was a precocious girl, but were a ridiculous, outgrown trademark when she inevitably aged and grew into a damaged victim of what she'd been used to create (btw, can anyone explain why taking male hormones for performance enhancement is wrong, but deliberately preventing the development of female hormones for image-enhancement in an aesthetically judged sport is right?). What's at work here -- and it's the link to baseball -- is the underlying aesthetic, the image. Promoting babe-ball over baseball is an easy marketing path to take, but it's one from which the sport and the athletes might never recover. Besides, tastes differ. My grandmother thought Lou Pinella was handsome, and my mother adored Mo Vaughn. Go figure.

[BristolBoy]

Just got round to looking through this thread.

Personally, I prefer watching women's sports on the whole over men's - the games are always played in the true spirit they should be, their actual skills usually far outclass the men and the competition is a lot closer. The one I don't watch (no matter how I've tried) is women's soccer - it just isn't right. I can't put my finger on why, but it just doesn't work for some reason.

As for the whole appearance thing, I just got told I have a Ricky Williams (Dolphins HB? I don't know, I don't watch football much) beard. How happy am I? :ughh

But I digress - as long as the unis aren't deliberately skintight and pink with glittery bits, it won't make a difference. Frankly, the change of pace from homerun fest to slap hitting and small ball would be a welcome one.

[bondsgirrrl]

Hey Knick9, it's an insult to a Dodger fan you like the Giants. Pick one or the other man, thats a joke. :evilreverse that and ditto it, lol

[nutmeagh]

:cool: Women's pro baseball...what a concept!

Would you want all female officials?
Food for thought!

[tonypug]

:cool: Women's pro baseball...what a concept!

Would you want all female officials?
Food for thought!
It would be important to have qualifief officials, regardless of their gender. But perhaps this would encourage more women into becoming umpires, and that would be a good thing.

[metsfan28]

I can't say I would. There is already a lot of baseball to keep up with, this would just make more to have to follow.

i agree why make even more baseball to follow MLBin itself and sometimes minor league baseball why make a womans professional baseball league perhaps thats a bit to much

[tonypug]

i agree why make even more baseball to follow MLBin itself and sometimes minor league baseball why make a womans professional baseball league perhaps thats a bit to much
I wouldn't expect a womans league to appeal to everyone. It would initially draw fans who are curious, but would create its own fan base. It would also draw some MLB fans like myself who like baseball. If someone tried to start another major league, that would be too much. I believe a womans professional league would stand on its own merits.

[Bill Burgess]

Could a woman's pro baseball league make it. I think it would depend. I have long believed that if 1-3 cable channels were devoted to woman's sports, that would be a big step forward. Why?

Because it would be easy to find on the tube. And if it were scheduled to air in an intelligent way, (not in competition with ML games), it could be done. Could be finessed.

We definitely have enough woman's sports to carry 3 24/7 cable channels.
Basketball, track, cross country, soccer, volleyball, gymnastics, ice skating, softball, field hockey, lacrosse, body building, weight-lifting. And at all levels. All it takes is investment, some corporate sponsorships, intelligent coverage.

It could be done. It could be very successfully finessed.

Bill Burgess

[tonypug]

Could a woman's pro baseball league make it. I think it would depend. I have long believed that if 1-3 cable channels were devoted to woman's sports, that would be a big step forward. Why?

Because it would be easy to find on the tube. And if it were scheduled to air in an intelligent way, (not in competition with ML games), it could be done. Could be finessed.

We definitely have enough woman's sports to carry 3 24/7 cable channels.
Basketball, track, cross country, soccer, volleyball, gymnastics, ice skating, softball, field hockey, lacrosse, body building, weight-lifting. And at all levels. All it takes is investment, some corporate sponsorships, intelligent coverage.

It could be done. It could be very successfully finessed.

Bill Burgess

Hey Bill its good to see you back over this way again. Fox started three regional stations that shows a lot of womans sports, CSTV also shows a lot of womans sports.It's tough for a new sports league to break into cable and the networks. Thats why I have said from the start, having MLB behind a womans league would speed up the process and gain instant access to media coverage. I think given the chance it would work.

[Bill Burgess]

Tony,

Good to chat with you again too old friend. I also agree that if ML baseball decided to get behind a cable channel, it could, if it chose to, carry a cable channel until the channel found the right programming, and filled it's time slots with the right sports selections until it could self-finance itself.

But baseball is a business. Looks at the bottom line. But the investment could be made to work, if enough of the right folks in the right positions had that as their goal.

People just like to watch women. I sure do, and for no particular reason. Just pleasant to watch women.

Bill Burgess

[BristolBoy]

I just got my first taste of American TV in a long time (we just got cable after a long time without it), and if Extreme Dodgeball - and oh how I wish I was making this up - can get on TV, then why wouldn't women's baseball?

[Knick9]

reverse that and ditto it, lol

Already discussed, ma'am. :rolleyes: I'm nuetral zone.

A good point made by BristolBoy, if Extreme Dodgeball can get made then why can't women's baseball? Is there any bias to this? Again, I would like to see WMLB for what it's worth.

[Iron Jaw]

Did I just read this, on this enlightened board? Please tell me I'm taking this out of context, but is the gist of this an idea that women's pro ball (baseball or softball) could only get by if the "chicks" are "hot"? What in the name of Annabel Lee has that to do with their athletic skills and talent?

Good grief. How medieval.

Unfortunately, his statement may have some truth to it. When I was in college, I was two-sport athlete (football and wrestling). I dated a girl on the volleyball team for a brief period. Her team was very good as they won the conference championship. But the attendence was terrible. I mean, volleyball is fun to play, but not too exciting to watch. Still, the way they were winning, the team should have received more support.

The scheduling was pretty bad too. No matter what sport you play it's pretty hard to get good attendence when the games are played on campus at 2 p.m.

During the conference tournament, all the teams from the league were playing in our gym. And the one that was given the most notice, and the most fans (male) attending was the absolute worst team in the league. While most of the teams wore normal shorts, the girls on that team wore skin-tights, pretty much low-cut spandex shorts. And of course, the guys were in the stands en masse when they played - despite the fact they stunk at volleyball. Our girls blew them away - but I think the guys were rooting for the skimpy-outfitted team, not the home team. Not me.....of course. :D My girl would have been pretty upset. :p

But then, in all fairness, we wore pretty skimpy singlets on the wrestling mats too. And our female attendence in the stands was greater than the male.

[tonypug]

Lets ask the question again, would you support a womans baseball league. Should High Schools and Colleges offer Womans Varsity Baseball as well as softball. In order to have enough talented players for a professional league, it would help to have High School and College programs. The question is are there enough young ladies who would play baseball over softball. I think it would be hard to play both.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

I would, but not for the game but for them!
That's men!:p :D

[sandlot]

The short answer is yes. When the day comes, as I hope it will, that a women's team in baseball gets as much attention as the US women's soccer team has, things will change. But for a league to be as successful as MLB would be a very long road to travel, just as it was for MLB itself. If I had to guess, I'd say the first female pro player would likely be an infielder who has some speed and is a good singles/doubles hitter for average. She'd get tested on hard slides, especially by one or two large jerks, and would need to be sturdy. Her first run from third on a play at home would be a breakthrough moment in the battle of the sexes. But in the end, none of that is important. Women playing the game as well as they can simply because they love it is what it should be all about -- just as it is for the vast majority of guys who can only dream about organized ball.

[chiefpaddy]

Womans soccer and basketball, both took a long time to evolve. The difference is women were playing both sports at the youth and high school levels and eventually at the college level. For womens baseball to take hold, there would have to be interest at the younger levels. I have done baseball camps for the 8-12 age group the last several years. There are always a number of girls at the camp. Some of them are very good, and all are eager to learn. Once they reach High School they are diverted into softball. A couple of players stayed with baseball and were competitive with the boys. Until there are leagues for these girls to continue playing baseball, womens leagues are just a dream. Softball and Baseball are very different in timing and skills. It is difficult to transition between the two.

[parcs1489]

I mainly watch Baseball games for the excitment of denfensive plays. I am sorry girls but No Way. :ughh
What makes you think defensive plays made by women athletes would be less impressive than by male athletes? If anything, offensive baseball would be less impressive.

[parcs1489]

Could a woman's pro baseball league make it. I think it would depend. I have long believed that if 1-3 cable channels were devoted to woman's sports, that would be a big step forward. Why?

Because it would be easy to find on the tube. And if it were scheduled to air in an intelligent way, (not in competition with ML games), it could be done. Could be finessed.

We definitely have enough woman's sports to carry 3 24/7 cable channels.
Basketball, track, cross country, soccer, volleyball, gymnastics, ice skating, softball, field hockey, lacrosse, body building, weight-lifting. And at all levels. All it takes is investment, some corporate sponsorships, intelligent coverage.

It could be done. It could be very successfully finessed.

Bill Burgess
Great point... a women's sports channel could definitely help market baseball. Also, in terms of timing broadcasts, perhaps we could return to the 'good ol' days' of afternoon baseball that the MLB has discarded.

[JeepingBaseball]

I'm new here but I stumble across this thread in a google search...

As a women who plays baseball herself, yes it is to be expected that I would support a women's professional baseball league.

It's all a matter of a public stereotype that we are constantly breaking down. I believe the day will come. And I do think it's sooner than later.

I think the biggest challange we have to get there is sponsors taking us seriously and giving us a fair shot. I think more awareness on the city level will help. Such as fund raisers, networking, a realistic plan, and so forth. It can be done. I'm sure of it. And I'm going to do whatever it is I can do to try to achieve that dream :)

Looking forward to getting to know those in this community :)
- Kimberly

[Captain Cold Nose]

I'm new here but I stumble across this thread in a google search...

As a women who plays baseball herself, yes it is to be expected that I would support a women's professional baseball league.

It's all a matter of a public stereotype that we are constantly breaking down. I believe the day will come. And I do think it's sooner than later.

I think the biggest challange we have to get there is sponsors taking us seriously and giving us a fair shot. I think more awareness on the city level will help. Such as fund raisers, networking, a realistic plan, and so forth. It can be done. I'm sure of it. And I'm going to do whatever it is I can do to try to achieve that dream :)

Looking forward to getting to know those in this community :)
- Kimberly

Welcome, Kimberly. Your experience and knowledge will be most beneficial here.

[JeepingBaseball]

Thank you for the welcome :)

As far as women's baseball, I can assure you we're making progress. California is a large league and strong support system out there. Colorado has long been established. New York, New Jersey, and Florida is growing and up and coming. Boston has several teams. Seattle has made huge strides. Philadelphia is starting to surface. There a league in the midwest states of Illionis, Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana that play each other.

There are leagues that travel all over the world. We failed on trying to get into the next summer olympics, but we'll keep trying.

Again, I really believe our goal can be achieved thru the city level. Get the city behind you, the public support, and a trial period to prove ourselves... we can do it :)

Keep in mind, women in baseball do not want to take over MLB. We want a league of our own in the same format of MLB. I think the schelduling of sharing the ballparks with MLB stadiums wont be as complicating as it sounds. I dont think WMLB would have as many teams as MLB does when it hits the ground running. So with a little creativity, it can be managed. Besides, the MLB stadiums will see a return effect.

[Bill Burgess]

We want a league of our own in the same format of MLB. I think the schelduling of sharing the ballparks with MLB stadiums won't be as complicating as it sounds. Besides, the MLB stadiums will see a return effect.

Once upon a time, MLB teams rented their stadiums to Negro League promoters when their own teams were on the road. Here is some material on how it used to be. The 3rd link is the most relevant to this discussion.


http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=445702&postcount=33

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=445703&postcount=34

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=445705&postcount=35

[brooklynboy]

Thank you for the welcome :)

As far as women's baseball, I can assure you we're making progress. California is a large league and strong support system out there. Colorado has long been established. New York, New Jersey, and Florida is growing and up and coming. Boston has several teams. Seattle has made huge strides. Philadelphia is starting to surface. There a league in the midwest states of Illionis, Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana that play each other.

There are leagues that travel all over the world. We failed on trying to get into the next summer olympics, but we'll keep trying.

Again, I really believe our goal can be achieved thru the city level. Get the city behind you, the public support, and a trial period to prove ourselves... we can do it :)

Keep in mind, women in baseball do not want to take over MLB. We want a league of our own in the same format of MLB. I think the schelduling of sharing the ballparks with MLB stadiums wont be as complicating as it sounds. I dont think WMLB would have as many teams as MLB does when it hits the ground running. So with a little creativity, it can be managed. Besides, the MLB stadiums will see a return effect.
Kimberly;
As a licensed women's soccer coach, I defy anybody to prove to me that women don't play as intense as their male counterparts..They sure listen and learn a lot better without an attitude...
That sed.....I don't see MLB endorsing a WMLB until it becomes a source of major income to them....Sadly, that's been the history of women's sports in this country..Remember the WUSA??? How bout the Silver Bullets??? WNBA? Alive only because of their parent ,NBA...
Personally, I much prefer watching a minor league game...Much cheaper, much more fun....I personally care more about the level of play rather than the sex of the player.....

Welcome to the board.........

[Guerrero Mad Man 2715]

What about a woman MLB player ecluding wars. Jennie Finch would probaly hold her own pretty well.

[JeepingBaseball]

Kimberly;
As a licensed women's soccer coach, I defy anybody to prove to me that women don't play as intense as their male counterparts..They sure listen and learn a lot better without an attitude...
That sed.....I don't see MLB endorsing a WMLB until it becomes a source of major income to them....Sadly, that's been the history of women's sports in this country..Remember the WUSA??? How bout the Silver Bullets??? WNBA? Alive only because of their parent ,NBA...
Personally, I much prefer watching a minor league game...Much cheaper, much more fun....I personally care more about the level of play rather than the sex of the player.....

Welcome to the board.........

MLB supporting WMLB only when it becomes a source of major income to them may be true from a political point of view. Yet we are not living in the 1940's. Women make up a large percentage of fans sitting in those seats all over America's stadiums, and not just for baseball alone. Sports in general is not exactly a male dominated pastime anymore. Look at tennis. Look at golf. Look at basketball. The US Women's Softball took home the gold to much fanfare.

The Silver Bullets. Great team. They made heads turn. Wonderful group of women. The played with raw passion. My hats off to them. They had a major sponsor, "Coors", and made them a very well known competive women's baseball team. They proved they could do it. They tested the bounderies against MLB players. Hall of Fame pitcher Phil Niekro was their manager. They were known as the only women's pro baseball team in the world at the time. THAT'S HUGE! Sadly, Coors dropped their sponsorship. My theory on that is that no one else stepped up to sponsor a team to compete against them. Perhaps if someone done that, we could be talking about something different today.

We can only grow one day at a time. The Silver Bullets were not a failed mission by any sense of the word. They paved a way for the future of women's baseball as wide as the Rockies Mountains. Instead of looking back and saying "Oh this sucks, it wont work, I quit"... alot of us are ready and able and willing to stand up and say "It's still a game we love, it's still a dream... the best we can do is continue to try"

I too like minor league. I'm a huge fan of the Brooklyn Cyclones. They have welcomed me on their fields, took the time to talk to me about baseball, even did workout drills with me. They are no different from us, we're no different from them... we all training and got on our eyes on the prize.... The Big Game.

We'll make it somehow. :D

[brooklynboy]

Anyone who believes that sports is still dominted by men obviously needs to come out of the sun:) ...However, it still accents a point....Women's tennis is about the only womens sport on prime time tv....Do we see WNBA games on the networks (cable networks don't count)? I lived close to Charlotte when the NCAA Womens Finals were held there. You could walk up to the Coliseum and buy second tier seats at game time..Try that at the men's tournament..lol..
Seriously, womens sports have come a very long way...Have you seen the woman's pro football league or the pro hockey league?? I think the american public vastly underestimates women's sports...I do not understand why but
history seems to show that...Perhaps this generation of women will prove history wrong.....

:waving

[Bill Burgess]

The Silver Bullets were not a failed mission by any sense of the word. They paved a way for the future of women's baseball as wide as the Rockies Mountains. Instead of looking back and saying "Oh this sucks, it wont work, I quit"... alot of us are ready and able and willing to stand up and say "It's still a game we love, it's still a dream... the best we can do is continue to try"

I too like minor league. I'm a huge fan of the Brooklyn Cyclones. They have welcomed me on their fields, took the time to talk to me about baseball, even did workout drills with me. They are no different from us, we're no different from them... we all training and got on our eyes on the prize.... The Big Game.

We'll make it somehow. :D

Thank you for bringing such wonderful, positive energy to the discussion. Your message is exactly what this conversation needs.

I will not be completely happy, until women are no longer excluded from the men's competition. No matter how few women would qualify for men's major league or minor league levels, they should be welcomed as any other competitor. And all that with a league of their own too. The concepts do not mutually exclude each other.

If 4 women are ever good enough to play at the ML level, that wouldn't "doom" the other women from establishing their own leagues, with their own devoted fans. At least that's what I think.

Bill Burgess

[tonypug]

JeepingBaseball welcome and thank you for bringing some fresh focus to this discussion.Getting womans baseball into the Olympics would certainly give a boost to the cause. I would also like to see it played at the high school and college level. I am surprised that some of the major corporations didn't jump in when Coors bowed out.

[JeepingBaseball]

Anyone who believes that sports is still dominted by men obviously needs to come out of the sun:) ...However, it still accents a point....Women's tennis is about the only womens sport on prime time tv....Do we see WNBA games on the networks (cable networks don't count)? I lived close to Charlotte when the NCAA Womens Finals were held there. You could walk up to the Coliseum and buy second tier seats at game time..Try that at the men's tournament..lol..


What can I say? Some people just aren't happy unless there is instant gratification. In my own personal opinon, I don't believe that is reality. It takes time, hard work, and a heck of alot of dedication. I could do the same as you Sir, sit here and focus on the history of women in sports instead of moving forward and trying new ideas for success. I choose the road less traveled. :D

[JeepingBaseball]

JeepingBaseball welcome and thank you for bringing some fresh focus to this discussion.Getting womans baseball into the Olympics would certainly give a boost to the cause. I would also like to see it played at the high school and college level. I am surprised that some of the major corporations didn't jump in when Coors bowed out.

Thank you :D I'm happy to be here :)

I think the reason why no one jumped on board after Coors bowed out is for the same reason WHY they bowed out. Coors took a chance and a risk. I believe they had the hope and every reason in the world to think that their competitors would join the game in corporate sponsorship. I think they wanted to see what would happen first. Say for example: If Miller Lite or Budweiser had sponsored a women's baseball team like the Silver Bullets somewhere else, I believe it would have been a classic rivarly. And from there, I think it would have grown. It's hard to say and speculate because no one else took a risk. It's a shame it didnt happen, but a valuable lesson was learned. We'll take that and apply it to the next chapter of the game with our fingers crossed. :D

[JeepingBaseball]

Thank you for bringing such wonderful, positive energy to the discussion. Your message is exactly what this conversation needs.

I will not be completely happy, until women are no longer excluded from the men's competition. No matter how few women would qualify for men's major league or minor league levels, they should be welcomed as any other competitor. And all that with a league of their own too. The concepts do not mutually exclude each other.

If 4 women are ever good enough to play at the ML level, that wouldn't "doom" the other women from establishing their own leagues, with their own devoted fans. At least that's what I think.

Bill Burgess

Thank you for those words! :D I couldn't agree with you more!

[tonypug]

Would it be more important to have a womans professional league be successfull, or have one or two exceptional woman players play in the majors with the men?Lets say it had to be one or the other , which would be more important.

[kramer_47]

I'm the father of 3 girls and I coached fast pitch softball for 20 years. I was always very impressed at how the girls performed, I coached girls from 7 years old up through the high school level, in fact my girls beat the boys in fastpitch softball at the 12-14 year old level. That being said I would support a league for the girls because as they get older the physical strength of the boys is just too much for the girls to handle. This isn't a knock on women I always told my girls they could be whatever they wanted to be if they worked hard enough.

[2007wschamps]

I would definitely support a Women's Baseball league. It has nothing to do with my gender (I am a female, by the way). I just don't feel that women get the respect that they deserve as far as athletics is concerned.

[tonypug]

I would definitely support a Women's Baseball league. It has nothing to do with my gender (I am a female, by the way). I just don't feel that women get the respect that they deserve as far as athletics is concerned.
Woman don't get enough respect for being athletes.If woman are given the opportunity to show what they can do, they will show their ability. They need the chance to play. By the way do you play baseball?