10/3/51 attendance: how can this be right?

[polo54]

The official attendance is usually given as 34,320 in box scores, books, documentaries, etc.
Assuming the Polo Grounds held about 55,000,
I've seen countless pictures and film footage of that game from every angle imaginable and have yet to find any empty seats!

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

The official attendance is usually given as 34,320 in box scores, books, documentaries, etc.
Assuming the Polo Grounds held about 55,000,
I've seen countless pictures and film footage of that game from every angle imaginable and have yet to find any empty seats!

Hello the polo grounds did hold 55,000. i have read that the weather on that day was not good that probally afected the attendance. Donald

[GIANT]

The 34,000 number I believe is correct. It was an overcast day. I do not believe it rained prior to the game. They eventually turned the lights on during the game. Nonetheless, the crowd was disappointing. A 13 1/2 game lead dissipated and one game decides it all. Two heated rivals vying for the National League pennant. Maglie versus Newcombe a great matchup. Ralph Branca told me that he has met more people who have him they were there that day. Perhaps they were but some of them were disguised as empty seats.

[Shotgun Shuba]

I have always thought that was very weak attendance for such an important game. It is a sad fact that many old NY baseball fans can't accept that their misty, idealized love affairs with their ball clubs did not begin until they said they were going to leave. You can curse me and insult me all you want, but I am right and that's what makes you even angrier. The Giants and Dodgers left from the arrogance of NY and the feeling that they were entitled to teams they supported from their living rooms.

[donzblock]

I have always thought that was very weak attendance for such an important game. It is a sad fact that many old NY baseball fans can't accept that their misty, idealized love affairs with their ball clubs did not begin until they said they were going to leave. You can curse me and insult me all you want, but I am right and that's what makes you even angrier. The Giants and Dodgers left from the arrogance of NY and the feeling that they were entitled to teams they supported from their living rooms.
Yes, Shotgun, you are right. You are right about everything. Curse you? Why would anybody curse you, Shotgun, when it is so obvious that you are right? Yes, it was the arrogance of the Giant and Dodger fans that caused their teams to leave. It was not O'Malley's greed or Stoneham's dipsomaniacal density; it was arrogance, the New York Giant fan's arrogance and the Brooklyn Dodger fan's arrogance. Why couldn't we see this simple truth before? Clearly, it takes a prophet to reveal life's obvious but simple truths, but now that Shotgun Shuba has arrived on the scene, we have our prophet. Now that I know the truth, I am never going to be angry again. In fact, as I write these words, I feel a deep serenity creeping into my bones, a profound and pervasive serenity that only great truths can confer. I can now accept what happened to the New York Giants and the Brooklyn Dodgers. It was a punishment for the fans' sins in an epic morality play that swept from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Verily we have sinned, and the gods have punished us for our arrogance by relocating our children into the promised lands of the saintly Franciscans and the blessed Angels. Let us give thanks to the powers that be for bestowing upon us (while we are still capable of reading) this remarkable seer, Saint Shuba, who has succeeded at last in bringing together the two coasts in what has to be called a Shotgun wedding.

[Shotgun Shuba]

Then my work is done. Peace to you my child and especially the wisdom you so clearly lack.

[donzblock]

Then my work is done. Peace to you my child and especially the wisdom you so clearly lack.
Nay, sir, for it can no longer be said that wisdom is lacking if thy work be done. If thy work be done, then wisdom is now present; but if the wisdom is clearly still lacking, then, o great one, thou must remain and patiently continue thy great teachings until the great wisdom that is so clearly radiating from thine every pore doth illuminate thy pupils who have striveneth so mightily to keepeth up with thine august and saintly self. For verily, kind sir, how canst there be peace if there beith no wisdom?

[DODGER DEB]

As I recall, in those days, there was always an "official attendance" and an "actual attendance"......the difference being that the "official attendance" was the "paid attendance", while the "actual attendance" included all the free tickets given out for that game.

c.

[shlevine42]

I have always thought that was very weak attendance for such an important game. It is a sad fact that many old NY baseball fans can't accept that their misty, idealized love affairs with their ball clubs did not begin until they said they were going to leave. You can curse me and insult me all you want, but I am right and that's what makes you even angrier. The Giants and Dodgers left from the arrogance of NY and the feeling that they were entitled to teams they supported from their living rooms.

Saint or not, every time you open your mouth, you put your foot in it a little deeper.

And talk about arrogance! Where the hell does a kid of 30 – who was born AFTER the Dodgers left Brooklyn – come off telling those of us who DID live the experience exactly when our love affair with the team began?

Not only are you wrong, Mr. Shuba, you’re LOUD wrong!

More important, you’re out of your depth here, sonny. So instead of trying to palm off your half-baked theories about Brooklyn fans’ loyalties, you need to study your history.

And you might begin by reading many of the threads on the Brooklyn Forum, written by fans old enough to have actually experienced the Dodger era in Brooklyn and who actually DO know what they’re talking about.

[Shotgun Shuba]

Nay, sir, for it can no longer be said that wisdom is lacking if thy work be done. If thy work be done, then wisdom is now present; but if the wisdom is clearly still lacking, then, o great one, thou must remain and patiently continue thy great teachings until the great wisdom that is so clearly radiating from thine every pore doth illuminate thy pupils who have striveneth so mightily to keepeth up with thine august and saintly self. For verily, kind sir, how canneth there be peace if there beith no wisdom?


Stop begging, "poet", I will not, nay, cannot return to the land of bitterness and venom. There will be no Return of the King. If you seek true knowledge you may seek me out.

"It is, the people say, the boastfulness of brigandage, but surely not the WAY."
Lao Tzu

[Shotgun Shuba]

Mr Levine, you take a strange delight in contradicting and challenging me. You are older than me, I admit that. Does the scholar of today have no right to examine and theorize on ancient Rome? Does a resident of Charleston in 1864 know more about the Civil War than a modern historian? True depth and understanding comes with time. You may spout hatred and insults, I will not battle you. I respect experience and do not wish to argue with you. I believe that pure emotion does not tell the whole story of the move, if you must cast me as monster to make you feel better that is your choice. I would think you would want people who love the Brooklyn Dodgers to not feel that every older Brooklyn fan is hostile. Your generation will not last forever and we will have to tell our children that there once was a Golden Era of baseball and the BROOKLYN Dodgers led the way. I offer you the Olive Branch and have full faith you are a mensh and we can get along.

[GIANT]

I have always thought that was very weak attendance for such an important game. It is a sad fact that many old NY baseball fans can't accept that their misty, idealized love affairs with their ball clubs did not begin until they said they were going to leave. You can curse me and insult me all you want, but I am right and that's what makes you even angrier. The Giants and Dodgers left from the arrogance of NY and the feeling that they were entitled to teams they supported from their living rooms.

You certainly are entitled to your opinion, however, the love of the Giant fans and Dodger fans for their teams was real not contrived. The Giants and Dodgers left New York because Horace Stoneham and Walter O'Malley were attempting to maximize profits. They had that legal right as owners of their teams. They both wanted new ball parks. You should be aware both the Giants and Dodgers were televising their home games in New York. In fact, the Dodgers were also televising some select road games. Obviously, Messrs. Stoneham and O'Malley were making $$$ from the rights fees, which might have offset their claims of declining attendance. This is purely speculative given that no one other that Stoneham, O'Malley and their minions saw the contracts. They had no legal obligation to divulge their earnings other than to their shareholders.

They both were aware that with an anti trust exemption bestowed on baseball by the U. S. Supreme Court that they had legal precedent to move their franchises on their side. Philadelphia lost the A's, St. Louis the Browns and Boston the Braves all with a five year span. In fact, in 1957, the U. S. Supreme Court reaffirmed the Court's original ruling on the the anti-trust exemption by a 6-3 vote. Coinincidentally, that was the last year the Dodgers and Giants played in New York. The fans felt betrayed, which from an emotional standpoint they were. They were hardly arrogant unless love of their teams is considered arrogance. Giant fans as opposed to Dodger fans at least have the satisfaction that while O'Malley profited from the move Stoneham died a slow death at Candlestick Park.

[Shotgun Shuba]

Giant, thank you first of all for always acting with civility and respect. I think that many Giant fans loved their team, I don't question that. I think Harlem was a tough sell in the 50's and I do not think their actual fan base shrunk from 1947 to 1957. I do think a fan in Westport CT. would rather watch his Giants from home rather than schlep all the way to the city. That is my point and the all important FACT. No city can support three baseball teams. NY could not afford to build AT LEAST 2 ballparks. The Yankees clearly would have cried foul and then there is 3 ballparks. The ideal situation: Giants in Yonkers or Westchester, Yankees stay in Bronx, Dodgers in Rockaway, Roosevelt, Coney Island or Elmont. I think a combination ballpark and racetrack would have been a gold mine. I think NY ball fans were apathetic, I'm sorry. You could write libraries of books on why they left. There is no Darth Vader here guys, I'm sorry. It's way too complicated for that.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

Giant, thank you first of all for always acting with civility and respect. I think that many Giant fans loved their team, I don't question that. I think Harlem was a tough sell in the 50's and I do not think their actual fan base shrunk from 1947 to 1957. I do think a fan in Westport CT. would rather watch his Giants from home rather than schlep all the way to the city. That is my point and the all important FACT. No city can support three baseball teams. NY could not afford to build AT LEAST 2 ballparks. The Yankees clearly would have cried foul and then there is 3 ballparks. The ideal situation: Giants in Yonkers or Westchester, Yankees stay in Bronx, Dodgers in Rockaway, Roosevelt, Coney Island or Elmont. I think a combination ballpark and racetrack would have been a goldmine. I think NY ball fans were apathetic, I'm sorry. You could write libraries of books on why they left. There is no Darth Vader here guys, I'm sorry. It's way too complicated for that.

Hello i still would have liked to have seen the new york giants stay at a renovated polo grounds. they could have renovated the ballpark like what happened to yankee stadium in the 1970,s.

[GIANT]

Giant, thank you first of all for always acting with civility and respect. I think that many Giant fans loved their team, I don't question that. I think Harlem was a tough sell in the 50's and I do not think their actual fan base shrunk from 1947 to 1957. I do think a fan in Westport CT. would rather watch his Giants from home rather than schlep all the way to the city. That is my point and the all important FACT. No city can support three baseball teams. NY could not afford to build AT LEAST 2 ballparks. The Yankees clearly would have cried foul and then there is 3 ballparks. The ideal situation: Giants in Yonkers or Westchester, Yankees stay in Bronx, Dodgers in Rockaway, Roosevelt, Coney Island or Elmont. I think a combination ballpark and racetrack would have been a goldmine. I think NY ballfans were apathetic, I'm sorry. You could write libraries of books on why they left. There is no Darth Vader here guys, I'm sorry. It's way too complicated for that.

I think this is valid point. Television changed the game and the way it was presented. The fans living in the suburbs took advantage of the accessability of the games on television. Stoneham and O'Malley cried about declining attendance but they might have provided the mechanism for the decline by televising home games -for $$$.

[Shotgun Shuba]

I think this is valid point. Television changed the game and the way it was presented. The fans living in the suburbs took advantage of the accessability of the games on television. Stoneham and O'Malley cried about declining attendance but they might have provided the mechanism for the decline by televising home games -for $$$.


That's a whole other can of worms. You would think that TV would be the ultimate promotion of your product. But, if I can get the product without getting mugged or having my window "washed" by some thug, I guess I will stay home. You cannot be a Luddite though and say, "we will not televise our games unless we sell out." The problem in NY was that the fans constantly had to come "in" from CT, LI, NJ, and Upstate. The centralized urban population of 1930 was not there. The move to SF was a disaster(maybe) for reasons others might speculate on. LA is 40 suburbs in search of a city and thus it thrived. O'Malley was not wrong and had Nassau County given him the farm He would have stayed(maybe). I don't know.

[shlevine42]

Mr Levine, you take a strange delight in contradicting and challenging me. You are older than me, I admit that. Does the scholar of today have no right to examine and theorize on ancient Rome? Does a resident of Charleston in 1864 know more about the Civil War than a modern historian? True depth and understanding comes with time. You may spout hatred and insults, I will not battle you. I respect experience and do not wish to argue with you. I believe that pure emotion does not tell the whole story of the move, if you must cast me as monster to make you feel better that is your choice. I would think you would want people who love the Brooklyn Dodgers to not feel that every older Brooklyn fan is hostile. Your generation will not last forever and we will have to tell our children that there once was a Golden Era of baseball and the BROOKLYN Dodgers led the way. I offer you the Olive Branch and have full faith you are a mensh and we can get along.

I take delight in contradicting and challenging statements that I disagree with…statements that are offered up as “truths” by unqualified observers and without supporting evidence. Such challenges are not strange at all; they're what this Forum is all about.

Scholars certainly have the right to theorize on past events, but you presume to have special insight into the minds and hearts of Brooklyn fans, and that, my friend, is beyond the scope of your scholarship.

What you see as “hostility” is a reaction to the arrogance of your statements and intense disagreement with your presumptions, which I might be willing to consider if they weren’t bathed in the blinding glare of your own certainty.

[polo54]

Not to beat a dead horse (for the umpteenth time,) but here goes:
REGARDLESS OF ATTENDANCE OR ANYTHING ELSE...
the Dodgers belong to Brooklyn, the Giants belong to Manhattan. Los Angeles
never deserved the Dodgers; San Francisco never deserved the Giants.
They were stolen from New York by greedy, evil scumbag owners + politicians.
Okay--now that that's out of the way....

Getting back to the point in question, there's no debating the fact that the Giants-Dodgers pennant race + the subsequent playoff series held the attention of New York like nothing else before or since.
The city lived + breathed Dodgers-Giants even when there wasn't a pennant race. It was in the very air of the city.
The epic, almost unbelievable drama + tension of the '51 playoff still resonates to this day. Any New York national league fan (which is almost redundant) then alive, could tell you exactly where he or she was when Thomson hit the HR. It was a life-event.
But, even with the iffy weather, television/radio + the fact that it was a working day, I am surprised by the attendance. And I know that a lot of Brooklyn fans came to the Polo Grounds that day.

[Shotgun Shuba]

Mr. Levine, I am sorry you feel that way. I have nothing more to say other than I pity you. I hope your real life is not full of such hatred and discord. Some people don't understand peacefulness and must search for conflict wherever they can find it. Their life can certainly be a lesson to the wise to avoid their ways and head toward true humanity. The olive branch is not always accepted and some are not enlightened enough to see what is right before their eyes. I seek to avoid their vitriol and yet they follow me. The first thing I am Certain of is that you are no gentleman and I will let you stew in your own juices. The second is that I will enjoy a Dodger game tonight in the comfort of a loving family and know I wil never be a person like you.

[64Cards]

Umm...back to the point, 20K empty seats at a game that is going to decide the pennant between the games most bitter rivals? I made a point in an earlier thread, that MLB was having some serious attendance problems, at least compared to what the teams were drawing right after WW2, through the remainder of the decade. And this just wasn't limited to the Dodgers or Giants, but virtually every MLB franchise's attendance at the gate was way off from where they had been a few years earlier. I'm sure there was still the great interest in bb, cause the NFL was really that big yet, the NHL was a cult sport, limited to only 4 US cities and the NBA was really a minor league at that time. But for some reason Americans were finding other things to do than go to the ballpark. :noidea

[shlevine42]

Mr. Levine, I am sorry you feel that way. I have nothing more to say other than I pity you. I hope your real life is not full of such hatred and discord. Some people don't understand peacefulness and must search for conflict wherever they can find it. Their life can certainly be a lesson to the wise to avoid their ways and head toward true humanity. The olive branch is not always accepted and some are not enlightened enough to see what is right before their eyes. I seek to avoid their vitriol and yet they follow me. The first thing I am Certain of is that you are no gentleman and I will let you stew in your own juices. The second is that I will enjoy a Dodger game tonight in the comfort of a loving family and know I wil never be a person like you.

Your latest post is almost as offensive as your earlier effort to admonish Dodger fans about living in the past.

Instead of responding to my specific criticism of your posts – which were echoed by at least three other Forum members -- you deliver yet another sanctimonious lecture – this one about life and peacefulness and humanity.

But I suppose it’s easier to do that than to acknowledge that your statements about the motives of Dodger fans were misguided and uninformed, and your conclusions lacked any credibility.

And of course you probably still don’t understand why I won’t be joining you in enjoying a Dodger game.

Back to the original question of this thread: I believe Dodger Deb has put her finger on a plausible explanation for the "low" attendance at the game in question. "Actual" attendance -- including free passes, service personnel, etc. -- was often significantly greater than "paid" attendance. And for such a crucial game, that gap was most certainly greater than usual.

[polo54]

Yes, your reference to Dodger Deb's point about 'paid attendance' is what I was getting at (or at least implying) earlier. I just don't believe that there were 20,000 empty seats as was stated on ESPN 'Battle Lines,' which was an otherwise excellent program.
Deb must be correct--at big events in those days, many complimentary
tickets were given out. It certainly wasn't due to any lack of interest.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Apathy is very "L.A.," not Brooklyn.

[wamby]

I have the Gordon McClendon broadcast of this game and he makes it sound like it was a full house. He also noted the overcast weather. Maybe the attendance was down because the game was played on a Wednesday afternoon.

It might have been like an old Cleveland Stadium crowd, the higher up seats that were obstructed may have had less fans sitting in them, especially in the lower deck.

[donzblock]

Stop begging, "poet", I will not, nay, cannot return to the land of bitterness and venom. There will be no Return of the King. If you seek true knowledge you may seek me out.

"It is, the people say, the boastfulness of brigandage, but surely not the WAY."
Lao Tzu
In sooth, saintly sir, doth I seek true knowledge, and convinced am I that thou alone can supply it. Wouldst thou be kind enough to unearth the bedrock of thy assertion that the Giant and Dodger fans were puffed up with "arrogance" and "entitlement," deadly sins that compelled the good Sir Walter and the Philosopher King Horace to rebuke said fans by relocating the franchises? Though I feel in my bones that what thou hast said is true, feeling will not convinceth others when I commenceth my preaching. Only knowledge will doeth that, and for that precious commodity I humbly beseecheth thee.

[Shotgun Shuba]

I have explained this many times, like 5 posts ago, but here goes:

1) Suburbians were staying away from the city ballparks. Giant attendance was awful, Dodger attendance was good but could have been better in a new stadium.
2) Just watching games at home in those days did not support the club. There were no cable deals.
3) I think,(MY OPINION) both groups of fans felt that they could just wait for new ballparks and come back then. I did not poll every fan, nor have you.
4) Cities such as SF and LA were very motivated to steal teams, while NY dithered. So if you want to read my statements as city officials being arrogant, you may.
5) In my Russ Hodges book I have mentioned here before,Hodges relates the huge crowds that came for the Giant and Dodger homecoming games in 1962. He wonders why the teams were so much more popular as enemies rather than friends. This is a first hand account from a man who saw every Giant game so he must be reliable.

I always thought they announced crowds higher than they really are. Such as tickets purchased rather than full seats. Maybe it was different then.
As we have seen it was probably many factors that led to the poor attendance that day. Was Ebbetts Field sold out for their game(s)?, I don't know.

[donzblock]

Stop begging, "poet", I will not, nay, cannot return to the land of bitterness and venom. There will be no Return of the King. If you seek true knowledge you may seek me out.

"It is, the people say, the boastfulness of brigandage, but surely not the WAY."
Lao Tzu

Baseball fans in Castro's Cuba
Interrupt their Missa Luba
When they hear the little popgun
Set off by the saintly Shuba.

Fans of every nation--goom-bah,
Bobo, Lobo, and Lumumba,
Piston fans in Detroit's Cobo--
Love to dance to Shuba's rhumba,

Love to squeeze the tiny tube o'
Toothpaste that is Shotgun Shubo.

(With apologies to John Updike.)

[shlevine42]

For the record: Game 1 of the '51 playoff, on a Monday afternoon and sheduled on short notice, drew 30,707 at Ebbets Field -- nearly a full house.

Game 2 at the Polo Grounds drew 38,609. Rain interrupted play for 41 minutes in the sixth inning.

For Game 3, rain clouds from the previous day hung over the city, and almost certainly held the paid attendance to 34,320. As noted previously, there were undoubtedly thousands more who got in on free passes to boost the total attendance closer to the Polo Grounds' capacity.

And as anyone who was in New York that day can attest, apathy and complacency were nowhere to be found.

[DODGER DEB]

For the record: Game 1 of the '51 playoff, on a Monday afternoon and sheduled on short notice, drew 30,707 at Ebbets Field -- nearly a full house.

Game 2 at the Polo Grounds drew 38,609. Rain interrupted play for 41 minutes in the sixth inning.

For Game 3, rain clouds from the previous day hung over the city, and almost certainly held the paid attendance to 34,320. As noted previously, there were undoubtedly thousands more who got in on free passes to boost the total attendance closer to the Polo Grounds' capacity.

And as anyone who was in New York that day can attest, apathy and complacency were nowhere to be found.



I do NOT remember seeing a photo of any of these games where the ballpark was not FULL. Granted there might have been a few empty seats, but not to the naked eye of the camera. Photos would prove my point.

NYC...and BROOKLYN was brimming with excitement for those three games. All eyes and ears were focused on the outcome. For someone, who was not there, to claim that apathy and complacency were all around us, clearly shows that he does NOT know anything about the BROOKLYN DODGER FAN, the NY GIANT FAN....or for that matter that time and place in NYC Baseball history. It's just that simple!

c.

[Gotham]

Shouldn't Shotgun be on the Dodger site. He sure has a lot of opinions.

It does seem that there were few seats to be had that day. Who caught that HR anyway? Is the ball in the Hall o' Fame?

[westsidegrounds]

All the pictures I've seen make it look like a pretty full house.


But in reality there were only a couple hundred people there.

And one photographer. See, what happened was the photographer kept moving people around wherever he was going to point his camera, so the PG would look sold out. This was part of a plot between Horace and O'Malley to make people think tickets for the subsequent WS would be unobtainable too, so they wouldn't even try to buy any, thereby allowing the two plotters to move the teams.

The reason there were only a couple hundred people there was that Horace got drunk and ordered the ticket-takers to only admit fans named "Joe", "Elmer", "Blanche", or "Wanda".

A guy told me this once, so it must be true.

[donzblock]

Shouldn't Shotgun be on the Dodger site. He sure has a lot of opinions.

It does seem that there were few seats to be had that day. Who caught that HR anyway? Is the ball in the Hall o' Fame?
I don't know who caught it, but I bought it, and that ball isn't going to the Hall. It's going to be destroyed at the 50th Reunion Anniversary in October.

[Gotham]

Are you serious? Please elaborate.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

Are you serious? Please elaborate.

He is joking. the ball was caught by a young black boy and they say that he ran away after that. nobody has seen the ball since then. i heard BOB COSTAS say that a while back on a radio show. :lookitup :rolleyes:

[donzblock]

He is joking. the ball was caught by a young black boy and they say that he ran away after that. nobody has seen the ball since then. i heard BOB COSTAS say that a while back on a radio show. :lookitup :rolleyes:
Yes, that young African American sold me the ball. The world will see it for the final time when we destroy it.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

Yes, that young African American sold me the ball. The world will see it for the final time when we destroy it.
You are full of it :evil :rolleyes:

[Gotham]

Wow. I would never destroy that ball. I'll give you two dollars for it, American.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

Wow. I would never destroy that ball. I'll give you two dollars for it, American.
Dont pay no attention to him, he does not have the baseball. he is pulling everyones leg on this one. :rolleyes:

[GIANT]

All the pictures I've seen make it look like a pretty full house.



The reason there were only a couple hundred people there was that Horace got drunk and ordered the ticket-takers to only admit fans named "Joe", "Elmer", "Blanche", or "Wanda".

A guy told me this once, so it must be true.

Knowing Stoneham's reputation and depending on which guy told you it seems plausible. The standing joke amongst Giant fans in the lower box seats by home plate at the Polo Grounds was to entice the beer vendor with "There is a nip in the air tonight." The vendor would reply; "It won't last long Horace will drink it." Toots Shor a personal friend of Horace had a smirk on his face when he heard it one night.

[DODGER DEB]

I don't know who caught it, but I bought it, and that ball isn't going to the Hall. It's going to be destroyed at the 50th Reunion Anniversary in October.


The Professor is absolutely right!

You will have to attend OUR 2005 Grand Celebration to see that ball destroyed!

c.

[Dodger Deb, too!]

As I recall, in those days, there was always an "official attendance" and an "actual attendance"......the difference being that the "official attendance" was the "paid attendance", while the "actual attendance" included all the free tickets given out for that game.

c.

Yes, Deb, correct. The ball park was always full. We know because you and I and many others were part of the "actual" attendance, not the "paid" attendance.

m.

[GIANT]

[QUOTE=Dodger Deb, too!]Yes, Deb, correct. The ball park was always full. We know because you and I and many others were part of the "actual" attendance, not the "paid" attendance.

Somehow I don't think $toneham and O'$Malley were interested in "actual" attendance.

[DODGER DEB]

[QUOTE=Dodger Deb, too!]Yes, Deb, correct. The ball park was always full. We know because you and I and many others were part of the "actual" attendance, not the "paid" attendance.

Somehow I don't think $toneham and O'$Malley were interested in "actual" attendance.

You are absolutely right, GIANT. However, the question we were attempting to answer (or explain) at the beginning of this thread was the fact that the attendance figure for the 3rd game of the '51 playoffs at the PG was around 34,000, and yet all photos of that day show the PG almost full to capacity. I simply offered the "paid" vs "actual" as an explanation.

c.

[dreifort]

let your own eyes judge the photos:

October 3rd, 1951 (a Wednesday)
Bobby Thomson rounding third heading home after "shot".

[dreifort]

prior to start of game on October 3rd, press photographer set up for this shot of some unlucky Brooklyn Dodger fans getting heckled by Giant fans.

[dreifort]

photo from the previous day, October, 2nd... as Jackie Robinson is congratulated after hiting a HR in the first inning.

[dreifort]

photo of Giant fans in bleacher seating on October 3rd

[dreifort]

Willie Mays showing photo of Thomson's "shot"

[GIANT]

[QUOTE=dreifort]let your own eyes judge the photos:

The photos are great but the view might be a bit more panoramic.

[DODGER DEB]

Those photos are all telling......just as I remember it!

To the naked eye, one can hardly see an empty seat.

Thanks, dreifort!

c.

[GIANT]

Those photos are all telling......just as I remember it!

To the naked eye, one can hardly see an empty seat.

Thanks, dreifort!

True as to the naked eye. However, whether you used the paid attendance number alone or paid number with the freebies the number is still considerably less than the capacity at the Polo Grounds, which was 55,000. An evidentiary showing to substantiate the claim there were no empty seats, if shown, would mean that the attendance number recorded for the game was incorrect. Although the photos are nice, a panonramic view would be better but it too might not be conclusive. I don't believe the naked eye or a remembrance are sufficient to disprove the official number listed for the game.

[dreifort]

didn't kids always find a way to sneak in? ;)

[GIANT]

Sure but not 20,000 of them.

[donzblock]

Sure but not 20,000 of them.
Maybe only 19,000. That day was a school day.

[Dodger Deb, too!]

Maybe only 19,000. That day was a school day.

I think it was 19,001, professor! But close enough.

m.

[musial6]

Sorry for joining the discussion so late, but I was there that day (I played hooky from my job on Wall Street). The stands were not even remotely filled. My guess is that there were AT LEAST twenty thousand empty seats.

[musial6]

I should clarify. At the START of the game, the stands were conspicuously free of fans. As the game progressed, more and more arrived. Remember, in those days, if you appeared at the gate by the sixth inning or so, you usually got in free (subject to seat availability). I believe everyone in the city was listening to the game that day and as the drama intensified, hundreds, maybe even thousands, arrived late, some very late.

[StanTheMan]

Where were you sitting, Musial? Just curious.... what a great game to have attended!!

[musial6]

Where were you sitting, Musial? Just curious.... what a great game to have attended!!

I was in the upper deck down the right field line. That was my customary perch at the PG. It was a good place to get free balls during BP.

P.S.

I saw Stan play many times at the PG and EF, including his last appearance at the PG on August 8, 1963. The Mets honored him that night. He pinch hit, walked, and was taken out for a pinch runner (Gary Kolb). Stan then trotted out to the clubhouse in CF to a standing ovation. He was the GREATEST.

[StanTheMan]

I saw Stan play many times at the PG and EF........... He was the GREATEST.


No, he was THE MAN. :D Many people still don't know that it was Dodgers fans who gave him that nickname (Musial hit over .370 in his career at Ebbets Field) and during a particulary torrid stretch early in his career, as he came to bat, there was a murmur in the crowd. As hte late Bob Broeg, legendary writer for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch told the story, he asked fans about that murmur in the crowd. "Here comes the man," they were saying. Broeg asked "here comes THAT man?" implying that some fans might not have known who Musial was (he had already won MVP's and batting titles by then) and Broeg was shocked that. "No," the reply came.... "Here comes THE man. It stuck.

Thanks for the reply.... I suppose that settles it. The game started with less than a full Polo Grounds. As the gates were thrown open, people filled in the remaining seats. What a great day to go down to the ballpark and catch the last few innings!!!

This practice was still in effect as late as the 1980's in St. Louis. My uncle went down to Busch Stadium late during game 5 of the 1985 NLCS, got in for free, and three or so innings later, Ozzie Smith hit what may be the most improbably Home Run in the history of MLB.

[Gotham]

Some great baseball town, not sold out for the NLCS? Disgraceful. You could fill Shea or The Stadium 3 times over for a game of that magnitude.

No, he was THE MAN. :D Many people still don't know that it was Dodgers fans who gave him that nickname (Musial hit over .370 in his career at Ebbets Field) and during a particulary torrid stretch early in his career, as he came to bat, there was a murmur in the crowd. As hte late Bob Broeg, legendary writer for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch told the story, he asked fans about that murmur in the crowd. "Here comes the man," they were saying. Broeg asked "here comes THAT man?" implying that some fans might not have known who Musial was (he had already won MVP's and batting titles by then) and Broeg was shocked that. "No," the reply came.... "Here comes THE man. It stuck.

Thanks for the reply.... I suppose that settles it. The game started with less than a full Polo Grounds. As the gates were thrown open, people filled in the remaining seats. What a great day to go down to the ballpark and catch the last few innings!!!

This practice was still in effect as late as the 1980's in St. Louis. My uncle went down to Busch Stadium late during game 5 of the 1985 NLCS, got in for free, and three or so innings later, Ozzie Smith hit what may be the most improbably Home Run in the history of MLB.

[Elvis]

I should clarify. At the START of the game, the stands were conspicuously free of fans. As the game progressed, more and more arrived. Remember, in those days, if you appeared at the gate by the sixth inning or so, you usually got in free (subject to seat availability). I believe everyone in the city was listening to the game that day and as the drama intensified, hundreds, maybe even thousands, arrived late, some very late.


Hmm, and they keep harping about fans in L.A. arriving late. Very Interesting...

Interesting=hypocritical that is. :D

[wamby]

If you listen to the McClendon broacast, he sounds surprtsed by the offical attendance and says that it looks like there must have been a people getting in for free.

For a non-scheduled work/school day that probably had next to nothing in advance sales and threatening weather to boot, I don't think this is a bad attendance figure.

[Krell]

Let me add my two (and quite belated) sense. When the Giants and Dodgers left NY, the fans were heartbroken. I remember it well. O'Malley, especially, was the object of much derision and ridicule, and there was some justice in feeling that way about him. He was an opportunist. But the game was/is also a business, sad to say. What I also remember was that attendance indeed had declined, and I must agree with Shotgun Shuba in his posts. Though my father and I were Giant fans, we lived in at the very southern end of Brooklyn and mostly got no further than Ebbetts Field to see a game. The fans may have loved their Dodgers but they did not fully express it by going to the ballpark. I remember often getting up from our seats and sitting almost anywhere we wanted. And it was pretty much the same for the Polo Ground Giants. Television, no doubt, played a part in the decline. But I think the fans also began taking the teams for granted. Whatever the case may have been, the fan's played no small role in the teams leaving for greener pastures. Simply loving and passionately rooting just wasn't enough. That's how I remember it.

[LouGehrig]

Your memories may be accurate but your interpretation may be incomplete. The fans did not play a role in the teams' leaving.

O'Malley did it out of greed while Stoneham was simply used since two teams were needed on the west coast.

The above is a simplistic sentence, but there are sufficient threads and posts to make a simplistic statement complex and to support the position.

[Brownie31]

Your memories may be accurate but your interpretation may be incomplete. The fans did not play a role in the teams' leaving.

O'Malley did it out of greed while Stoneham was simply used since two teams were needed on the west coast.

The above is a simplistic sentence, but there are sufficient threads and posts to make a simplistic statement complex and to support the position.

Some say, especially Bill Veeck in "The Hustler's Handbook", that
Stoneham used O'Malley more than the other way around. It is
a fact that Stoneham had the earliest plans to move, albeit to
Minneapolis, and that O'Malley became the villian in the piece
and drew everyone's ire.

Brownie31

[soberdennis]

The official attendance is usually given as 34,320 in box scores, books, documentaries, etc.
Assuming the Polo Grounds held about 55,000,
I've seen countless pictures and film footage of that game from every angle imaginable and have yet to find any empty seats!
Of course you'll probably find 550,000 who claim they were there that day. Some of whom weren't even born yet.

[EbtsFldGuy]

Saint or not, every time you open your mouth, you put your foot in it a little deeper.

And talk about arrogance! Where the hell does a kid of 30 – who was born AFTER the Dodgers left Brooklyn – come off telling those of us who DID live the experience exactly when our love affair with the team began?

Not only are you wrong, Mr. Shuba, you’re LOUD wrong!

More important, you’re out of your depth here, sonny. So instead of trying to palm off your half-baked theories about Brooklyn fans’ loyalties, you need to study your history.

And you might begin by reading many of the threads on the Brooklyn Forum, written by fans old enough to have actually experienced the Dodger era in Brooklyn and who actually DO know what they’re talking about.

Ah, the wonder of another unifying post by old SH.

[wamby]

Some great baseball town, not sold out for the NLCS? Disgraceful. You could fill Shea or The Stadium 3 times over for a game of that magnitude.

There was no NLCS in 1951.

[rcl986@aol.com]

One thing everyone seems to forget is that that the year was 1951 not 2006. The game itself was an unscheduled DAY game being played on a WORKDAY. There was a different work ethic in those days. In 1951 many people were docked a days pay for not going to work and for most that was money they simply could not afford to lose. Most parents (especially Mothers) refused to let their kids skip school for a ball game, even a playoff game. Add to that the weather for that day. It was a damp, overcast, threatening nasty fall day. A day that most folks preferred to spend indoors listening to the game on radio or if you were lucky, watching it on TV. I do however subscribe to the theory that people may have shown up in the later innings when they saw the weather would hold. But, I have no reason to dispute the official paid attendance being anything more than what was announced. If I remember correctly, in those days the official paid attendance was announced around the 7th inning which means the figures were collected earlier. In any case, that game showcased the most memorable moment in baseball history, something Giants fans will cherish forever.

[Shotgun Shuba]

There was no NLCS in 1951.

That reference was to the St. Louis game quoted in the post. I will choose not to be flip with you. You must read the posts though before attempting to belittle others.

[wamby]

That reference was to the St. Louis game quoted in the post. I will choose not to be flip with you. You must read the posts though before attempting to belittle others.

I was merely pointing out a fact.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

There is a new book out on this great 1951 pennant race between brooklyn and the giants called

THE ECHOING GREEN by Joshua Prager
ISBN 0-375-42154-8
it has great photos and i help out with Mr Prager with his book. i am also in the book. this book is one that every baseball fan should read. its out today in your local book stores.

[Rome Colonel]

The Giants' best crowd in 1951 was for a Memorial Day double header against the Braves (46,490). On four other dates, including the second game of the playoff, they drew over 34,320, all against the Dodgers.

In their final regular season series (against the Braves, Saturday-Monday) the Giants drew a total attendance of only 35,758. This would seem to indicate that the low attendance for the final playoff game really wasn't that much of a fluke.

I was never in the Polo Grounds but I assume that there were many seats with obstructed views or situated more than 450 feet from home plate. Because of such limitations the realistic seating capacity probably was below 50,000 and possibly below 45,000.

During their last two World Series the Giants drew as follows:

51-3: 52,035
51-4: 49,010
51-5: 47,530
54-1: 52,751
54-2: 49,099

Clearly it was very hard to sell the last 10,000 seats under the most ideal circumstances. Figure in threatening weather and a Wednesday afternoon and you can understand why they didn't sell the next 10,000 on 10/3/51.

[DODGER DEB]

There is a new book out on this great 1951 pennant race between brooklyn and the giants called

THE ECHOING GREEN by Joshua Prager
ISBN 0-375-42154-8
it has great photos and i help out with Mr Prager with his book. i am also in the book. this book is one that every baseball fan should read. its out today in your local book stores.

If anyone is interested in reading it, the NY Times reviewed this new book last Sunday....

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/books/review/Thorn.t.html?_r=1&ref=review&oref=slogin

c.

[The Real McCoy]

Maybe only 19,000. That day was a school day.

Another element is the fact that attendance figures in those days were turnstile counts. Not too many corporate season tix were sold. Today, the attendance figures reflect tickets sold (on a single game and season basis) whether there are fannies in the seats or not. I've been in stadiums where attendance is annouced at 50M, but it's obvious that about 20M came dressed as empty seats.

That said, 19M seems a bit on the low side. My only other thought is that October 3, 1951 might have been the start of a Jewish holiday. As a lapsed altar boy, I'm not in much of a position to address the question and ask for help from my friend, shlevine.

[polo54]

A couple of years ago I listened to a radio broadcast of the game. The announcer (I think it was the Mutual Network) commented that the Dodger fans comprised some 25,000 and, being Dodger fans, were far louder
throughout the game (of course, that would change.)

So Giants fans were certainly in the minority.
Brooklyn fans were known for following their club for big away games: e.g., old Shibe Park was filled with Brooklynites for crucial '49 and '51 pennant race
matches. They would often outnumber Giants fans at the Polo Grounds, and Yankee fans at the Stadium for World Series games.

This is common in Europe for big soccer matches, where tens of thousands of fans will travel across the continent to support their team but practically unheard of in American sports. Dodger fans were something else.

As for the "work ethic" excuse proferred for the low turnout...lame. Come on, you mean to tell me that barely 10, 000 people couldn't show up to support their team at what was arguably the biggest game in their history?

Just a couple of footnotes:
the '51 Series PG attendance figures did include a lot of Yankee fans.
One reason dark lord O'Malley cited for needing a bigger ballpark was the ticket requests the Dodgers had to return in all those World series. Club officials estimated that they sent back 100, 000 requests per game (!) at Ebbetts Field. Source is Red Barber and the old Redhead woulda know'd.
Amazin'!

[Rome Colonel]

My only other thought is that October 3, 1951 might have been the start of a Jewish holiday.

Apparently Rosh Hashanah began on the evening of 9/30/51. I say "apparently" because I only found an anecdotal reference on-line; I could not find a table of dates. Since that holiday lasts two days it would have been over before 10/3. I think there are 10 days from the start of Rosh Hashanah to Yom Kippur, so that holiday would have been 10/9. Hopefully someone who's Jewish can confirm this.

[rcl986@aol.com]

As for the "work ethic" excuse proferred for the low turnout...lame. Come on, you mean to tell me that barely 10, 000 people couldn't show up to support their team at what was arguably the biggest game in their history?

[StanTheMan]

Some great baseball town, not sold out for the NLCS? Disgraceful. You could fill Shea or The Stadium 3 times over for a game of that magnitude.

I was in line for World Series tickets a few years ago, with an estimated 75,000 people, so St. Louis could also sell out any stadium on earth (except maybe the Maracana stadium in Brazil) several times over as well.

That's pretty idiotic, Gotham.... Of course the game in 85 was sold out.

People outside the park without tickets, who walked in when the gates were opened in about the 7th ot 8th inning, have to to go Standing Room areas. This has been the norm for tens of thousands of baseball games in the 20 century. (In case you don't know when the 20th century was, it was 1901 to 2000). Your beloved Yankees USED to do the same thing, as did the Mets.

Are you that shortsided, or lack baseball knowledge of anything outside the 5 boroughs or from before Derek Jeter?

I have slept on the sidewalk outside Busch Stadium three different times for World Series tickets. My father has done so six different times. All postseason games are sold out in St. Louis..... the city which THE PLAYERS IN MLB baseball voted as having THE BEST FANS IN BASEBALL....

Hey, I am biased towards my team and my hometown, as you obviously are. I'll take the players word for it. Cards fans are the best in baseball.

[64Cards]

Just for the hell of it, I checked the attendance figures for the 1962 NL playoffs, almost an identical situation as in 51, Giants came from behind to force a best of 3 playoff, except the franchises were now located on the left coast, playing in new ballparks. here's the numbers:

game 1, Candlestick Park, won by SF, drew 33K, about 10K under capacity

game 2, Dodger Stadium, won by LA, drew 25K, almost 30K EMPTY seats

game 3, Dodger Stadium, won by SF, drew 44K, better but still 10K empty seats

Draw your own conclusions.

[Rome Colonel]

Haven't time today to draw any conclusions, only enough to look up the numbers for the 1959 and 1946 playoff games:

1959 Game One at Milwaukee - 18,297
1959 Game Two at Los Angeles - 36,528

Both were day games (Monday, Tuesday) and my recollection is that the weather in Milwaukee was not the best. When the team moved to Atlanta in 1966 some people said that the attendance for the playoff game was the first indication that the Braves' long honeymoon with Milwaukee was over.

1946 Game One at St Louis - 26,012
1946 Game Two at Brooklyn - 31,437

These were played Tuesday and Thursday; presumably day games.

[GMONEY]

There is a new book out on this great 1951 pennant race between brooklyn and the giants called

THE ECHOING GREEN by Joshua Prager
ISBN 0-375-42154-8
it has great photos and i help out with Mr Prager with his book. i am also in the book. this book is one that every baseball fan should read. its out today in your local book stores.

Just finished reading reading this fascinating book. Pages 193-194 might answer the attendance questions. "The previous game (Game #1 at the PG's) had not sold out either. The Daily News and the NY Times putting forth the best guess as to why. "Assumed Sell-Out Cuts Size of Crowd" read a headline. Strangely this seems plausible. On September 28th, the Giants announced that they would accept no more applications for World Series Tickets and the next day, a headline in the New York Herald Tribune had screamed:"Giants have no tickets!! Series Oversubscribed." The fans, it seems, assumed the playoff games were sold out as well." Maybe the headlines were read quickly? It doesn't say, playoff games, but maybe many assumed. Thanks to Joshua Prager's book for the quotes.

Maybe the credo is true."Don't believe everything you read"

Other tidbits:
-September 27th, coin flip was held and the Dodgers chose to host 1st game while Giants would host next two at the PG's. By Bums chosing to host 1st game, that gave Giants chance to host next two.
-September 28th was a Friday and the teams were tied at that point in the standings.
-September 30th season ends in tie.
-October 1st, 1st Giant-Dodgers playoff game, Giants win 3-1
-October 2nd, Bums win
-October 3rd, Giants win series
GMONEY

[rcl986@aol.com]

As for the "work ethic" excuse proferred for the low turnout...lame. Come on, you mean to tell me that barely 10, 000 people couldn't show up to support their team at what was arguably the biggest game in their history?


Yeah........................that's exactly what I'm telling you. Also, judging from the fan reaction at the end of the game, I highly doubt that most of the fans at the game were Dodger fans as you seem to think. Having watched the actual TV broadcast of that game LIVE I can assure you that the vast majority of fans at the PG that day were rooting for the Giants. Thats not to say that the Dodgers didn't have a large contingent of supporters in attendance BUT they were not in the majority.

[EbtsFldGuy]

Yes, Shotgun, you are right. You are right about everything. Curse you? Why would anybody curse you, Shotgun, when it is so obvious that you are right? Yes, it was the arrogance of the Giant and Dodger fans that caused their teams to leave. It was not O'Malley's greed or Stoneham's dipsomaniacal density; it was arrogance, the New York Giant fan's arrogance and the Brooklyn Dodger fan's arrogance. Why couldn't we see this simple truth before? Clearly, it takes a prophet to reveal life's obvious but simple truths, but now that Shotgun Shuba has arrived on the scene, we have our prophet. Now that I know the truth, I am never going to be angry again. In fact, as I write these words, I feel a deep serenity creeping into my bones, a profound and pervasive serenity that only great truths can confer. I can now accept what happened to the New York Giants and the Brooklyn Dodgers. It was a punishment for the fans' sins in an epic morality play that swept from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Verily we have sinned, and the gods have punished us for our arrogance by relocating our children into the promised lands of the saintly Franciscans and the blessed Angels. Let us give thanks to the powers that be for bestowing upon us (while we are still capable of reading) this remarkable seer, Saint Shuba, who has succeeded at last in bringing together the two coasts in what has to be called a Shotgun wedding.

And some thought only the Pope had infallibility.

[mandrake]

1959 Game One at Milwaukee - 18,297
1959 Game Two at Los Angeles - 36,528

game 1, Candlestick Park, won by SF, drew 33K, about 10K under capacity

game 2, Dodger Stadium, won by LA, drew 25K, almost 30K EMPTY seats

game 3, Dodger Stadium, won by SF, drew 44K, better but still 10K empty seats

1946 Game One at St Louis - 26,012
1946 Game Two at Brooklyn - 31,437



Great info ! I too have attended some memorable games including 1986 WS game 6 and I have framed my stub!!! I have personally met hundreds of thousands who claim they were there too (HA)

As for St Louis fans, yes they are incredibly loyal. And they draw well now.
But look at the 1946 playoff above. Better yet, look at the 1944 WS that was an All St Louis affair for the only time. It was a flop, and was outdrawn by the LITTLE WS in Baltimore by a wide margin. That was the main reason that the Browns moved EAST(...most relocations had traditionaly been west.)

All of the playoffs relied on walk up sales on day of game (1946, 1951, 1962)
Boston nearly had a 1948 city series, but the Red Sox lost a one game playoff to the Indians 8-3. I don't have the attendance on that game, but it was held on Oct 4, 1948. When a team was forced to play a playoff, the team did not get a day off. When the Giants beat the Dodgers in '51, they were worn out and had to play the Yankees the next afternoon.

[JamesWest]

[QUOTE=mandrake]

I don't have the attendance on that game, but it was held on Oct 4, 1948. QUOTE]

The attendance was 33,957. Not bad for an unscheduled Monday afternoon game.