Jeff Kent

[CTaka]

Only watched Kent regularly during his days as a Giant, but I think his defense is under-rated. He had a strong arm for a 2B, which added to his value as a cutoff man. His range factor during his years in SF was 12% above league average (and is nearly 11% better than league average for his career) and he was solid in turning the double play.

Offensively, I think he's already done enough to qualify. His career OPS+ of 126 is higher than other 2B HOFers such as Gehringer (124), Frisch (111), Schoendienst (93), Evers (106), McPhee (106), Sandberg (114), Fox (94), Lazzeri (121), Doerr (115), and Herman (112). I may have missed someone, but at first glance, the only 2B's in the Hall that have a higher career OPS+ than Kent is Hornsby (175), Lajoie (150), Collins (141) and Morgan (132); and those four (in some order) are generally considered to be the four best of all time. Granted, his career number will likely further decline as he continues to play as he is in the twilight of his career, but he'd also have an LQ advantage over all the others named (to various degrees) in any head-to-head comparison.

Kent may not be a first ballot guy, but I certainly see him getting inducted at some point and I think he would deserve that honor.

[DoubleX]

What are peoples' thoughts on Jeff Kents chances? He already has the record for most career homeruns by a 2B, and he'll likely finish his career in the 350-400 homerun range; he has an MVP award; and 7 100+ RBI seasons, tied for the most by a 2B.

He obviously is one of the most productive 2B in history, but how much of that has been a product of the Juiced Era? I kind of think that in any era, 350 homeruns by a secondbasemen is impressive.

[dgarza]

He has a good chance, but he'll probably have to have 2-3 more good years to be safe.

Yes, he does have 300+ HRs, but playing in his era hurts what that looks like. He was only in the top 10 in his league for HRs once, and never in the top 5. His RBI numbers actually look better than his HR numbers.

[julusnc]

I agee that he has a shot.The next 3-5 years of stats are what shall seal the deal of his hall induction.

[DoubleX]

Yes, he does have 300+ HRs, but playing in his era hurts what that looks like. He was only in the top 10 in his league for HRs once, and never in the top 5. His RBI numbers actually look better than his HR numbers.

How many 2B in history have regularly appeared in the top 10 in homeruns? Joe Gordon? Ryne Sandberg? Anyone else? It's just not a position with a whole lot of emphasis on power. The fact that it took only 280 or so homeruns by a player in the juiced era to set the 2B record shows just how unimportant power at 2B has been.

[dgarza]

At this point I see him as an 80-85% HOFer, if that makes any sense to anybody.

[DoubleX]

I think of Sandberg as a much superior player to Kent. Sandberg will most likely get in this year or next, but the fact that he's struggled so much doesn't bode well for Kent, especially since his one claim to fame, home runs, might be seen as tainted by the Juiced era.

[dgarza]

How many 2B in history have regularly appeared in the top 10 in homeruns? Joe Gordon? Ryne Sandberg? Anyone else? Maybe Morgan, Lazzeri, Boone, ....

Whitaker also only made the top 10 once

i was putting 300 HRs into juiced context...SSs aren't supposed to hit HRs either...

[dgarza]

If Kent hit 100 HR less, but played in a different era, he might have a slightly better chance, not that he has a bad chance now.

That fact that his numbers look a lot better once he hit SF makes him look uneven as a player also.

[Brad Harris]

Don't forget the man beat Barry Bonds out for an MVP Award!

Likely Hall of Fame material.

[mac195]

I'd put Kent's chances in the 40-50% range. Obviously he'll get a lot of consideration, but many voters will discount his big RBI years somewhat, because he had Bonds on base in front of him. Kent was a late bloomer, and has played in only 1777 games. Also, he isn't known as a great fielder, so he'll be getting in mostly on his bat. He'll need 3 more decent-to-good years to move into the Sandberg/Biggio/Larkin range. At this point I don't know how Kent can rate ahead of guys like Trammell and Whitaker, who haven't gotten many votes.

[Gonzo]

I'd say he has a 75-80% percent chance. Now a days though, I think most players are judged by the number of home runs he hits.

[ElHalo]

How many 2B in history have regularly appeared in the top 10 in homeruns? Joe Gordon? Ryne Sandberg? Anyone else?

I believe this is everybody who did it more than once, though I could be missing a couple:

Rogers Hornsby (14 times)
Joe Gordon (9)
Nap Lajoie (9)
Bobby Doerr (7)
Ryne Sandberg (5)
Tony Lazerri (4)
Ross Barnes (3)
Charlie Gehringer (3)
Joe Morgan (3)
Bret Boone (2)
Bobby Grich (2)
Alfonso Soriano (2)

Kent is the third best second baseman of his era (after Biggio and Alomar). That's ok, but there's nothing about him that strikes me as particularly impressive, and his rapport with the press certainly won't do him any favors. He seems like a no to me.

[ElHalo]

Another thing:

It seems to me like these guys are mortal locks to make the HoF (counting only active guys with at least ten years in):

Ivan Rodriguez
Mike Piazza
Raphael Palmeiro
Roberto Alomar
Craig Biggio
Derek Jeter
Alex Rodriguez
Barry Bonds
Manny Ramirez
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Sammy Sosa
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mariano Rivera

With a few more guys who are very likely to make it. That seems like an awful lot of active players to be making the Hall of Fame. If we start adding in more peripheral guys, like Kent, it will make it the "Hall of Great 1990's Players." I don't know how good of an idea that is.

[DoubleX]

Another thing:

It seems to me like these guys are mortal locks to make the HoF (counting only active guys with at least ten years in):

Ivan Rodriguez
Mike Piazza
Raphael Palmeiro
Roberto Alomar
Craig Biggio
Derek Jeter
Alex Rodriguez
Barry Bonds
Manny Ramirez
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Sammy Sosa
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mariano Rivera

With a few more guys who are very likely to make it. That seems like an awful lot of active players to be making the Hall of Fame. If we start adding in more peripheral guys, like Kent, it will make it the "Hall of Great 1990's Players." I don't know how good of an idea that is.

That's an excellent point; how much is too much? Your list didn't even include guys like Glavine, Bagwell, and Thomas (I'm particulary shocked that you of all people didn't include Thomas :)).

Also, when will Joe Gordon get his due? 9 times in the top 10? Wow. That's impressive for a secondbasemen.

[ElHalo]

Also, when will Joe Gordon get his due? 9 times in the top 10? Wow. That's impressive for a secondbasemen.

Especially for a guy considered to be on the short list for best defensive 2Bman of all time.

As to Glavine, Thomas, and Bagwell, I considered putting all three on, but I just don't see Glavine as a slam dunk HoF'er (in all honesty, he would be in any other era, but comparing him to Clemens, Johnson, Pedro, and Maddux is just tough on him), people have been tough on Thomas of late for his DH'ing and injury history, so as great as he is, I'd call him a 95% chance rather than a 100% chance right now... and if Thomas isn't on the list, there's no way I can put Bagwell there.

[csh19792001]

How many 2B in history have regularly appeared in the top 10 in homeruns? Joe Gordon? Ryne Sandberg? Anyone else? It's just not a position with a whole lot of emphasis on power. The fact that it took only 280 or so homeruns by a player in the juiced era to set the 2B record shows just how unimportant power at 2B has been.

Arguably the two greatest second baseman in history were power hitters. Hornsby was in the top 10 in homeruns 14 times, leading twice. Lajoie was in the top 10 nine times, leading once. Lajoie's career OPS+ is 150, Hornsby 175.

[santotohof]

I hope Kent gets in(after Ryno).He has been a run producing machine

[DoubleX]

Arguably the two greatest second baseman in history were power hitters. Hornsby was in the top 10 in homeruns 14 times, leading twice. Lajoie was in the top 10 nine times, leading once. Lajoie's career OPS+ is 150, Hornsby 175.

I was kind of omitting Lajoie from this discussion on account of playing during the dead ball era. Homeruns can't really be put in the same context.

[csh19792001]

I was kind of omitting Lajoie from this discussion on account of playing during the dead ball era. Homeruns can't really be put in the same context.

I suppose you are right- but I was thinking that top 10 is top 10, and slugging is slugging. Both were premier sluggers and second baseman.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Is Jeft Kent a HoFer?

[Bleacherbee]

If he retired today, without question, no

[Bleacherbee]

I don't like the "no" option.

Where's, "no, he's a solid player and an asset to any team, but not HOF-worthy"

[714 on beer and dogs]

He certainly deserves it now and is doing nothing but adding to it so far this year. He tackles Hornsbys,Lazzerris and Rynos records. I hope he asks Keith Hernandez, who tried his best to sabotage his early career ,to give the speech

[mac195]

He could be... if he can put in two or three more good seasons. His big power numbers will be rightly discounted somewhat, due to the era he has played in. And he'll be competing with Alomar and Biggio for the voters attention.

[RuthMayBond]

If he retired today, without question, noHe's arguably worse than Grich and Doyle, yet he's arguably better than Doerr, Lazzeri, and Gordon (who's not in the Hall but some swear should be)

[Bleacherbee]

He tackles Hornsbys records.


Do you mean Rogers Hornsby???

[RuthMayBond]

Do you mean Rogers Hornsby???It has to be. Hornsby led his league in OPS+ twelve years, didn't you know Kent "tackled" that record? :laugh :laugh :laugh

[tonjes]

i voted without a doubt. kent is simply one of the best offensive second baseball of all time. if that's not worth something, i don't know what is anymore.

[Bleacherbee]

i voted without a doubt. kent is simply one of the best offensive second baseball of all time. if that's not worth something, i don't know what is anymore.


Yes, yes, very well substatiated when Rogers Hornsby has more RBI, hits, higher batting average, higher slugging percentage, higher OBP, higher OPS, etc etc...

[Bleacherbee]

It has to be. Hornsby led his league in OPS+ twelve years, didn't you know Kent "tackled" that record? :laugh :laugh :laugh

Well, Jeff Kent is only a couple of points behind on career BA...

Oh wait, I was comparing his OBP to Hornsby's BA

My bad ;)

[Dudeman]

After the comments he made about Babe Ruth and steroids I just think Jeff Kent is mentally handicapped.

Also what happened to have Houston disown him? Strange!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

He could be... if he can put in two or three more good seasons. His big power numbers will be rightly discounted somewhat, due to the era he has played in. And he'll be competing with Alomar and Biggio for the voters attention.

However, most of the career has been played in pitcher's parks, Shea Stadium, Candlestick Park, SBC Park and now Dodger Stadium...

[Honus Wagner Rules]

It has to be. Hornsby led his league in OPS+ twelve years, didn't you know Kent "tackled" that record? :laugh :laugh :laugh

Please don't get me started on Rogers "I uninate in the shower" Hornsby! :grouchy

[BoSox Rule]

Yes, he is. He's played in some of the hardest offensive parks his entire career, and he's a 2B.
WARP
Eddie Collins 172.2
Nap Lajoie 161.7
Joe Morgan 158.2
Rogers Hornsby 150.1
Charlie Gehringer 125.9
Rod Carew 111.3
Frankie Frisch 110.7
Ryne Sandberg 110.5
Bobby Doerr 99.3
Billy Herman 96.7
Bid McPhee 93.0
Bill Mazeroski 89.7
Red Schoendienst 85.2
Jeff Kent 85.0
Nellie Fox 84.8
Jackie Robinson 83.8
Tony Lazzeri 75.7
Johnny Evers 63.9

WARP/162
Rogers Hornsby 10.8
Nap Lajoie 10.6
Eddie Collins 9.9
Jackie Robinson 9.8
Joe Morgan 9.6
Charlie Gehringer 8.8
Bobby Doerr 8.6
Ryne Sandberg 8.3
Billy Herman 8.2
Frankie Frisch 7.8
Jeff Kent 7.8
Rod Carew 7.3
Bid McPhee 7.1
Tony Lazzeri 7.0
Bill Mazeroski 6.7
Red Schoendienst 6.2
Nellie Fox 5.8
Johnny Evers 5.8

[RuthMayBond]

Please don't get me started on Rogers "I uninate in the shower" Hornsby! :grouchyYou should see what happens to Kent when he "washes his car" :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Yes, he is. He's played in some of the hardest offensive parks his entire career, and he's a 2B.
WARP
Eddie Collins 172.2
Nap Lajoie 161.7
Joe Morgan 158.2
Rogers Hornsby 150.1
Charlie Gehringer 125.9
Rod Carew 111.3
Frankie Frisch 110.7
Ryne Sandberg 110.5
Bobby Doerr 99.3
Billy Herman 96.7
Bid McPhee 93.0
Bill Mazeroski 89.7
Red Schoendienst 85.2
Jeff Kent 85.0
Nellie Fox 84.8
Jackie Robinson 83.8
Tony Lazzeri 75.7
Johnny Evers 63.9

WARP/162
Rogers Hornsby 10.8
Nap Lajoie 10.6
Eddie Collins 9.9
Jackie Robinson 9.8
Joe Morgan 9.6
Charlie Gehringer 8.8
Bobby Doerr 8.6
Ryne Sandberg 8.3
Billy Herman 8.2
Frankie Frisch 7.8
Jeff Kent 7.8
Rod Carew 7.3
Bid McPhee 7.1
Tony Lazzeri 7.0
Bill Mazeroski 6.7
Red Schoendienst 6.2
Nellie Fox 5.8
Johnny Evers 5.8

Wow! I didn't realize that Kent stacked up that well against the great second basemen. It looks like he's already about the 9th-13th best second baseman of all time.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

You should see what happens to Kent when he "washes his car" :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :D :D :D :D

[julusnc]

Comparing Jeff Kent to Rogers Hornsby in any fashion is plain crazy.I just heard Rajah turn over in his grave.

Jeff Kent will get strong consideration if he has about three more quality seasons before his career ends.

[ElHalo]

Please don't get me started on Rogers "I uninate in the shower" Hornsby! :grouchy

What don't you like about my favorite all time star player, Rajah? Other than his personality, I mean.

[west coast orange and black]

i went with " maybe", because kent is shy of the hof watermark as of now. (and i do not see him attaining it.)
but kent a "hack"? no way.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

What don't you like about my favorite all time star player, Rajah? Other than his personality, I mean.

I have nothing personal against him. He's a grade-A, no-doubts-about-it first ballot class HoFer and one of the greatest second basemen of all time (#3 in my book, I'd rather have Morgan or Collins). IMHO he is a overrated in the sense that people consider him the greatesd RH hitter and one of the top-5 greatest players of all time. I happen to disagree with that. But that's a debate for another day. Of course comparing Kent to Hornsby is pretty silly...

I will say that Hornsby at his peak was probably a little better than Little Joe and Collins...

[tonjes]

Yes, yes, very well substatiated when Rogers Hornsby has more RBI, hits, higher batting average, higher slugging percentage, higher OBP, higher OPS, etc etc...that's why i said one of the best, and not the best. i don't believe he is the best. rogers hornsby was a jackass anyways, so why are you so defensive?

[ElHalo]

I do rank Hornsby as the fourth greatest position player of all time, behind Ruth, Cobb, and Mays. I used to rank him behind Wagner as well, but some discussion here has caused me to drop Honus a few slots. That he's the greatest RH hitter of all time seems to me to be pretty unquestionable, but that is a different argument.

[mac195]

Wow! I didn't realize that Kent stacked up that well against the great second basemen. It looks like he's already about the 9th-13th best second baseman of all time.

But Grich, Whitaker, Alomar and Biggio were not included in the WARP list. They all rank ahead of Kent.

[Bleacherbee]

that's why i said one of the best, and not the best. i don't believe he is the best. rogers hornsby was a jackass anyways, so why are you so defensive?


You must completely forgive me tonjes, I was in a pre-defensive mood as a result of the "tackles Hornsby's records" comment earlier in the thread, and completely missed the "one of" part of your post. Totally my bad.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I wonder how the HoF voters will view Kent? He doesn't have the breath of baseball skills like Alomar and Biggio. However, he has lots of HRs and RBIs to sell to the voters and the HoF voters really like HRs and RBIs. A couple more 25-30 HR and 100+ RBI seasons and I think he'll have a relative easy time getting elected...

[714 on beer and dogs]

Am I mistaken or didn't Kent break a long standing RBI record held by Hornsby?I never compared the two overall I simply pointed out that he had indeed tackled a record , a record based on long term performance, of RAJAHS

[tonjes]

You must completely forgive me tonjes, I was in a pre-defensive mood as a result of the "tackles Hornsby's records" comment earlier in the thread, and completely missed the "one of" part of your post. Totally my bad. :laugh not a problem at all. it happens.

[Cougar]

The Hornsby record Kent broken was kind of a gimmicky one: most 100-RBI seasons by a second baseman. Hornsby had 5; Kent has 7 and counting. Even granting that RBI are team-dependent, though, that's pretty impressive.

Kent also has the all time record for HR by a second baseman, and he has over 300 overall -- outstanding for a middle infielder. He's likely to have over 500 doubles before he's through, and may approach 600. He'll break 2000 hits this year. His career BA is a very respectable .290. He's won an MVP.

Points about both adjusting for era (negatively) and parks (positively) are well taken. He's not really a good enough fielder or a bad enough one to affect the calculus much, other than it's useful to a team to be able to have a middle-of-the-order slugger that can competently man 2b. Baserunning similarly is not really important either way.

Kent doesn't have to be Rogers Hornsby to make the HOF. At some point the weight of his offensive output has to tip the scales.

Character -- Kent's got a reputation as a horse's ass, and he's an accident waiting to happen every time he talks to the media. But, he's no Rogers Hornsby here either. It's a demerit, but not a serious one.

I think he should be in.

[Ursa Major]

I gotta agree that the guy's a pain, although no one ever accused him of being a cancer while he was with the Giants (my team). And, his disdain for Bonds is becoming more understandable given recent events.

Still, he's one of the few legitimate clean-up hitting second baseman in the history of baseball, and he's probably a peer of Sandberg with a glove. Not great range, but solid and he turned the double-play as well as anybody, particularly in that the Giants went through a number of second basemen while he was there.

He's batting .342 right now with six homers :lookitup (which extrapolates out to over forty for the whole season). Since he turned 37 in March and seems to stay healthy given his age, I'd say he's gotta a decent chance for 400 home runs. And, it was not all that long ago that 400 homers was a sure ticket to Cooperstown unless your name was Dave Kingman. (Now, Palmeiro's cheapened the 500 homer club.)

I think he gets in in a weak year. And don't talk about Sandy Alomar or Craig Biggio has HOF'ers. Just don't have the impact Kent does.

[Bleacherbee]

(Now, Palmeiro's cheapened the 500 homer club.) .

What is that supposed to mean?

[leecemark]

--I think he means Palmerio is the least awe inspiring player to join the club. I would agree with that, but Raffy is clearly a deserving Hall of Famer and his getting 500 doesn't lessen it as an express ticket to Cooperstown. Had Mcgriff achieved it that probably would have caused a little hand wringing and somebody from the current inflated, steroid cloulded era could perhaps get 500 and still be found wanting. Palmerio doesn't devalue the club for me. As the worst memeber of the 500 club, he is better than the worst member of the 3,000 hit or 300 win clubs.
--The part of Ursa post that seems more questionable to me is the statement that Kent's defense was similar to Sandberg's. Ryno was a perrenial (sp?) Gold Glover. Kent is average at best and probably a little below. Calling him better than Alomar (I assume he meant Roberto, not Sandy) and Biggio was also a reach IMO. They are both clear cut hall of famers in my book, while Kent is still working on his resume. He can probably make the cut, but he is unlikely to pass Alomar and/or Biggio in the all time rankings.

[plask_stirlac]

The Hornsby record Kent broken was kind of a gimmicky one: most 100-RBI seasons by a second baseman. Hornsby had 5; Kent has 7 and counting. Even granting that RBI are team-dependent, though, that's pretty impressive.

Kent also has the all time record for HR by a second baseman, and he has over 300 overall -- outstanding for a middle infielder. He's likely to have over 500 doubles before he's through, and may approach 600. He'll break 2000 hits this year. His career BA is a very respectable .290. He's won an MVP.


Good post. Hornsby's better by far, but Kent isn't a joke compared to him.

Kent isn't done yet. That would be pretty impressive if he has a great season this year in Dodger Stadium half the time, and SBC years ago.

[RuthMayBond]

he's probably a peer of Sandberg with a glove. Not great range, but solid and he turned the double-play as well as anybody,

And don't talk about Sandy Alomar or Craig Biggio has HOF'ers. Just don't have the impact Kent does.Hmm
Kent, 1x Assist king, deserved probably no Gold Gloves, 0x Field% king, 3x Error king, 1.07 Range Factor+

Sandberg, 7x Assist king, deserved at least four Gold Gloves, 4x Field% king, 1.14 Range Factor+

Kent also doesn't have the AB that ROBERTO and Biggio do either

[714 on beer and dogs]

Good post. Hornsby's better by far, but Kent isn't a joke compared to him.

Kent isn't done yet. That would be pretty impressive if he has a great season this year in Dodger Stadium half the time, and SBC years ago.Thank you for seeing my point. He has in fact broken a multi season RBI record of Rajahs and has in fact broken Rynos all time HR record. That adds up to a remarkable player in any era and as a second sacker he is certainly worthy of praise and I find some responses insulting

[Cougar]

The Hornsby record Kent broken was kind of a gimmicky one: most 100-RBI seasons by a second baseman. Hornsby had 5; Kent has 7 and counting. Even granting that RBI are team-dependent, though, that's pretty impressive.

Correction here -- Charlie Gehringer also has seven 100-RBI seasons as a second baseman.

I think Kent broke Hornsby's National League record.

There's an inverse relationship between the number of qualifiers needed to explain a record and the record's impressiveness. This is a decent example of that.

[ElHalo]

When Kent breaks Rajah's all time major league record for leading a league in BA, OBP, SLG, and OPS in the same season (7 times) or Rajah's National League record for OPS titles (11), then we can start to talk about Kent in the same breath as Rajah.

Jeff, by the way, has led in those categories a combined no times. Matter of fact, he's never finished in the top 5 in any of them.

[Cougar]

I think everyone agrees that Kent's no Hornsby.

[Brad Harris]

I'm codifying this one...

Cougar's Law: "There's an inverse relationship between the number of qualifiers needed to explain a record and the record's impressiveness."

:laugh :laugh :laugh

[RuthMayBond]

I'm codifying this one...

Cougar's Law: "There's an inverse relationship between the number of qualifiers needed to explain a record and the record's impressiveness."

:laugh :laugh :laughGreat, so my softball team record for having the most non-intentional bases on balls in twi-night double headers by left-handed-throwing, right-handed hitting outfielder-first basemen-catchers over forty years old isn't that impressive :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

[Brad Harris]

Great, so my softball team record for having the most non-intentional bases on balls in twi-night double headers by left-handed-throwing, right-handed hitting outfielder-first basemen-catchers over forty years old isn't that impressive :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

Damn that Cougar...he's as bad as Murphy! :laugh

[DoubleX]

The notion that a 2B has to be favorably comparable to Rogers Hornsby to make the Hall is ridiculous. Offensively, I don't think any other 2B is in his league, but there are still plenty of players worthy in their own right who have made the Hall or will make the Hall as a 2B.

Anyway, since we're on the topic, where does Kent rank in everyones all-time 2B rankings? Here's mine:

1) Eddie Collins - Hornsby's great, but for some reason, I'd rather have Collins on my team.
2) Rogers Hornsby
3) Joe Morgan
4) Napoleon Lajoie
5) Jackie Robinson - I bump him up a few spots in my rankings because of what he meant in the grand scheme of things.
6) Ryne Sandberg - I think far too many people don't realize just how all around excellent he was. On a given day, I could have him as high as 4th on my rankings.
7) Charlie Gehringer
8) Roberto Alomar
9) Craig Biggio
10) Jeff Kent - Makes the top 10 only because of being the all-time homerun leader at the position (and counting). Don't know if that's saying much given his era though.
11) Lou Whittaker
12) Frankie Frisch
13) Bobby Grich
14) Joe Gordon
15) Bobby Doerr
16) Tony Lazzeri

*) Rod Carew - I'm usually inclined to rank him as a 2B, but today I see him more as a 1B, so I've left him out. Normally, he'd be somewhere between 7-10.

[Brad Harris]

I can say with confidence that he's in my top twenty, but not in my top ten. To be more specific, I'd have to put some time into it. *sigh* (One more thing.) :laugh

As far as "contemporaries" go, I've got Sandberg, Alomar and Biggio all ahead of him. I would think I'd put Kent over Whitaker, but not over Grich.

Off-topic, anyone besides me upset that Chuck Knoblauch's career didn't have a second-half as great as his first?

[RuthMayBond]

Damn that Cougar...he's as bad as Murphy! :laughHuh? right over my head

[RuthMayBond]

The notion that a 2B has to be favorably comparable to Rogers Hornsby to make the Hall is ridiculous. Offensively, I don't think any other 2B is in his league, but there are still plenty of players worthy in their own right who have made the Hall or will make the Hall as a 2B.

Anyway, since we're on the topic, where does Kent rank in everyones all-time 2B rankings? Here's mine:

6) Ryne Sandberg - I think far too many people don't realize just how all around excellent he was. On a given day, I could have him as high as 4th on my rankings.
7) Charlie Gehringer
8) Roberto Alomar
9) Craig Biggio
10) Jeff Kent - Makes the top 10 only because of being the all-time homerun leader at the position (and counting). Don't know if that's saying much given his era though.
11) Lou Whittaker
12) Frankie Frisch
13) Bobby Grich
14) Joe Gordon
15) Bobby Doerr
16) Tony Lazzeri

*) Rod Carew - I'm usually inclined to rank him as a 2B, but today I see him more as a 1B, so I've left him out. Normally, he'd be somewhere between 7-10.Sanberg's OPS+ is only 114. What about Larry Doyle? Grich seems kinda low

[RuthMayBond]

I can say with confidence that he's in my top twenty, but not in my top ten. To be more specific, I'd have to put some time into it. *sigh* (One more thing.) :laugh

As far as "contemporaries" go, I've got Sandberg, Alomar and Biggio all ahead of him. I would think I'd put Kent over Whitaker, but not over Grich.

Off-topic, anyone besides me upset that Chuck Knoblauch's career didn't have a second-half as great as his first?That's pretty much where I have Kent for now. I would have been upset about Knoblauch except that some of his decline was spent with the Yankee$ :laugh :dance :laugh

[leecemark]

--I don't know where to put Carew on the 2B list. As a player I rank him over all but the top 6. As a secondbaseman I'm not so sure.
1. Morgan
2. Collins
3. Hornsby
4. Lajoie
--gap
5. Gehringer
6. Robinson
? Carew
7. Frisch
8. Sandberg
9. Biggio
10. Alomar
--this is as low as I'd go with Carew so I'll skip 11.
12. Gordon
13. Grich
14. Whitaker
15. Kent
--Doyle was probably better in his own time than Kent in his, but not by enough to make up for difference in league quality.
Rounding out the top 25; Randolph, Lazzeri, McPhee, Barnes, McAuliffe, Evers, Doerr, Fox, Herman. Knoblauch isn't the first and he won't be the last player to fizzle mid-career. I never had any attachment to him and he did fizzle for the Yankees so no not upset at all. Once upon a time I thought it was arguable which of Alomar, Knoblauch and Carlos Baerga would turn out best. Guess that worked itself out pretty clearly.

P.S. Seems odd that two Hall of Fame 2B's end up outside my top 25, but there are several others between the top 25 and Maz and Red IMO (Lopes, Childs, Myer, Pratt, maybe Avila).

[Cougar]

I'm codifying this one...

Cougar's Law: "There's an inverse relationship between the number of qualifiers needed to explain a record and the record's impressiveness."

:laugh :laugh :laugh

Aw shucks. :laugh

[ADunn44]

all i know is Joe Morgan is better than Jeff Kent



Morgan was a fast lil' guy


o, and no, Kent doesn't deserve HoF, IMO

[DoubleX]

I think Kent's chances really hinge on how he finishes it up. He really seems like one of those guys who has snuck up on us and whom we have to really consider.

He's playing well this year, and say he hangs on for four more seasons (including this one) and plays reasonable well for the next couple, he could very well approach 375-400 homeruns. That's a ridiculous amount for a 2Bman in any era, by far the most of all-time at the position, and probably too much to leave him out of the Hall for too long. He could also surpass 1500 RBI and approach 2500 hits (that's probably much less likely), with a respectable career BA.

[714 on beer and dogs]

Jeez too many clutch players get overlooked by the numerologists

[RuthMayBond]

Jeez too many clutch players get overlooked by the numerologistsAnd how do we know a player is clutch?

[Bleacherbee]

And how do we know a player is clutch?

Come on, its a quantifiable statistic ;)

[moviegeekjan]

Impossible to quantify "clutch" when there's no agree on exaclty what "clutch" means

[nolanryan5714]

And don't talk about Sandy Alomar or Craig Biggio has HOF'ers. Just don't have the impact Kent does.
Oh, give me a break! :rolleyes:
Biggio has more than enough credentials.

Kent, maybe...as mentioned in this thread before, with 2 or 3 more good seasons.
Even if he were still an Astro, I'd say this.

[baseball79]

I don't think he makes the cut. He just doesn't compare with Hall of Fame Second Basemen. He doesn't have enough great seasons.

[westsidegrounds]

Well, the average HOFer has 27 black ink points. JK has, um, not any.

Even Maz has 2 BI points!

And Maz got seven gold gloves, which for a second baseman is a significant accomplishment. JK, on the other hand, has a grand total of zero GGs.

The only possible argument for Kent is that he's a better hitter than Maz, and Maz is in, therefore ....

Do we really want everybody who hit better than Bill Mazeroski in the HOF?

[leecemark]

--Maz is in strictly for his glove. Kent would be in primarily for his bat. The better comparison would be to Tony Lazzeri, who was kind of an early version of Kent.

[westsidegrounds]

--Maz is in strictly for his glove. Kent would be in primarily for his bat. The better comparison would be to Tony Lazzeri, who was kind of an early version of Kent.

A guy who never lead the league in any significant offensive category doesn't get in for his bat far's I'm concerned. Lazzeri at least had 91 gray ink points - well below HOF average - which is significantly more than Kent's 64.

If you let Jeff Kent in, who you gonna keep out??????????

[leecemark]

--Lazzeri also only had to be 10th in an 8 team regional league to get his grey ink. Kent has to be amoung the 10 best in a 16 team league made up of the best players on the planet. I'd take Kent over Lazzeri any day. On the other hand, Lazzeri isn't exactly the standard of excellence I'd like to see for the Hall.

[The Splendid Splinter]

A guy who never lead the league in any significant offensive category doesn't get in for his bat far's I'm concerned. Lazzeri at least had 91 gray ink points - well below HOF average - which is significantly more than Kent's 64.

If you let Jeff Kent in, who you gonna keep out??????????



Kinda hard to lead in the offensive category when the HR leader is like low 50s high 40s and 10th would be 40 HRs... How many 2B are there in the history to have 40 or more HR in a season? then in RBIs 10th place is probably 120 or higher I imagine.. again hard for a 2B to do... Just wondering?? How would Lazzeri do in grey ink points in this era?

It is going to be hard to keep out the 2B who has the most HR in his position... And he'll probably increase that margin every year

most HRs for a 2B
.289 career average
1200+ RBIs
1000+ Runs
only thing that hurts him is hits... he is almost at 2000 right now
and he just turn 37 so give him 2 or 3 more seasons after this year...
you're looking at probably 350 HRs or more (for a 2B)
and he'll probably have 500 doubles (isnt that a milestone for HOF, just like 500 HRs and 3000 Hits???) when he is done


he is on track for the HOF

[Cougar]

A guy who never lead the league in any significant offensive category doesn't get in for his bat far's I'm concerned. Lazzeri at least had 91 gray ink points - well below HOF average - which is significantly more than Kent's 64.

If you let Jeff Kent in, who you gonna keep out??????????

I'd contend that 64 gray ink points in a 16-team league is more impressive than 91 in an 8-team league with no blacks allowed.

Who will I keep out? The next slugging second baseman with an average (but not bad) glove that doesn't have 300 HR and counting.

[RuthMayBond]

Well, the average HOFer has 27 black ink points. JK has, um, not any.

Even Maz has 2 BI points!Let's see, Maz batted eighth, before the pitcher? Hmm. Would you want to discuss grey ink?

[westsidegrounds]

The inflated HR totals of Kent's era more than make up for the "advantage" Lazzeri (who BTW doesn't belong in the HOF) had in playing in an 8-team league.

Ryne Sandberg seems to have done a pretty good job of keeping up with the rest of the guys, even playing in the modern huge big NL with its plethora of outstandingly talented :laugh :laugh :laugh players.

[Cougar]

Are people hitting twice as many HR as they did in Lazzeri's day? I don't think the difference is that great.

It's an empirical question...I don't know -- if someone wants to research it, please do; I can't just this minute.

(And that's not even factoring in the fact that Lazzeri didn't have to hit against Satchel Paige, etc.)

[PopTop]

... and he's probably a peer of Sandberg with a glove. Not great range, but solid and he turned the double-play as well as anybody, particularly in that the Giants went through a number of second basemen while he was there. ........ Sandy Alomar or Craig Biggio has HOF'ers. Just don't have the impact Kent does.Oh my! I can't even believe such statements. Kent is nowhere near being a "peer of Sandberg" on defense! And while Sandy Alomar SR might have been a decent 2B, Sandy Alomar Jr was not. Perhaps you mean Robby Alomar. Kent was very, very, very lazy on defense in his two years with Houston.

I agree with some of the other posts, about Kent being HOF caliber as far as offense goes. But he doesn't hold a candle to either Robby Alomar or Craig Biggio when it comes to being a complete second baseman.

[antihipster]

No doubt Kent is not much of a fielder, but his batting in the historically low quality hitting of this position ought to make Kent a hall of famer.

[714 on beer and dogs]

It seems to me that several posters have Ty Cobb egos and don't respect Al Kaline players. Baseball is a wonderful game and it was such long before microsoft software. Thousands of talented people have played this game and to own career records at a position speaks rather highly of a players long term ability. Some cocksure posters should remember that the 69 Mets kicked the Orioles asses and I bet there is not grey ,black or purple numbers that would allow that. the game is played on the field not the abacus and noone lies a know it all

[westsidegrounds]

Al Kaline was approximately a bajillion times (unofficial figure) better than Kent.

[whatswailing]

Jeff Kent belongs in the HOF in my mind. Do we always have to bring up the inflated era of home runs and all that babble. Jeff Kent belongs, he's a great clutch hitter and he's always been a HOF guy in my mind. Even when he was with the Giants and killing my team I knew that he was a great player. He deserves to have his place in Cooperstown.

[ElHalo]

Are people hitting twice as many HR as they did in Lazzeri's day? I don't think the difference is that great.


In Lazzeri's best HR season, 1927, when he finished third (or 26, when he also finished third, but I'll use 27), the AL hit 439 HR's, or .712 a game (In 26, it was only 424 HR's). In Kent's best HR season, 2002, the NL hit 2595 HR's, or 2.002 a game. So, actually, it's closer to three times as many home runs than twice as many home runs.

[Cougar]

OK, this is the best anti-Kent argument I've seen. (Although I'd like to see career data.)

I compared Lazzeri's HR/PA rate to Kent's; Tony's was 2.4%, Kent's 4.1% (though 2004). Given the league ratios, Lazzeri's is much more impressive (especially when you consider Lazzeri was a RH hitter in pre-renovation Yankee Stadium).

There should be a discount factor for era -- the level of play in the 20's and 30's was not as high as it is now, especially considering segregation, etc. But even so, two things are true:

1. Those complaining about Lazzeri's HOF status should be making apologies.

2. Kent's case doesn't look as good historically as it did.

I still think Kent is a HOFer -- I just don't think you keep a guy who's likely (given 2 more good seasons) to have 350 HR, 500 doubles, and 2200 hits out. But I'm less confident than I was before.

I'm starting to think of Vern Stephens as a comp -- a slugging middle infielder with a poor fielding reputation (worse than merited) who had bad relationships with fans, press, and many teammates. Despite several spectacular offensive seasons, Stephens never got a single HOF vote.

[RobertHConner]

the growing case for Kent...

MLB record HR for 2B

tied w/ Hornsby for most 30 HR seasons (3) [Rogers did play in an era when even his contemporaries referred to that post-1919 baseball as a 'jackrabbit ball'

consecutive 100-RBI seasons as 2B (6)

most RBI in 4-year span by player whose primary position was 2B, 475, 1997-2000

sacrifice flies by second baseman, season, 13 in 2001 (t-5 others)

neither Hornsby or Kent were defensive stars...I've come across quote after quote saying that Rogers couldn't go back on a pop fly worth a flip. No one is saying Kent is the best ever. I believe I would choose Nap Lajoie, Hornsby & Frankie Frisch ahead of Kent. Choosing Joe Morgan, Sandberg & Alomar would depend on my team's needs (if it's defense & speed Kent is eliminated--power & RBI, then he's in). I believe he made a mistake going to LA-he likely won't see the postsreason again.

Let's be realistic about this. Hornsby is the greatest offensive 2nd baseman of all time. He did not exhibit legendary speed or defense. Kent is not nearly the hitter he was, but you DO NOT have to be the best ever--you simply have to put up huge numbers, or very good ones for a long time. Kent's not there yet, but he's getting there. I don't think he'll be anywhere near a 1st ballot HOF'er, but I believe he'll get in if he strings together 2 or 3 more seasons with 85-100 RBI & 22-30 HR. He has been a part postseason runs with 3 different organizations.

He might be a jerk, doesn't appear to've been a great teammate in New York, San Francisco (Bonds was actually standing up for David Bell when he bounced Kent off the dugout wall) or Houston, but it's an insult to disregard his production by calling him a hack.

[mac195]

Choosing Joe Morgan, Sandberg & Alomar would depend on my team's needs

Morgan belongs in the Hornsby/Collins/Lajoie group, not the Sandberg/Alomar/Kent class. He writes a lot of goofy stuff in his column, but as a player he was an all-time great. Kent isn't even close to his level.

[leecemark]

--Morgan is the the top tier of 2B's with Hornsby, Collins and Lajoie, but Kent is not in the 2nd tier up with Alomar, Biggio, Sandberg, etc. I'd define that 2nd tier as guys who are no brainers for the Hall, but outside the argument for best evert at the position. He is more in the third tier with guys like Doerr and Lazzeri (in the hall) and Gordon, Grich, Whitaker (not, but should be). He is better than many of the 4th tier 2B's who are in the Hall, but probably shouldn't be.

[714 on beer and dogs]

You must completely forgive me tonjes, I was in a pre-defensive mood as a result of the "tackles Hornsby's records" comment earlier in the thread, and completely missed the "one of" part of your post. Totally my bad.Read and comprehend. I said he has tackled records of Hornsby, Sandberg and of course of everyones favorite 257 lifetime hitter Morgan. I never said he was the best just one of them Too many post as if the HOF should have 25 members - a starting 8, 5 man staff-,6 relievers and a stellar bench

[Captain Cold Nose]

Read and comprehend. I said he has tackled records of Hornsby, Sandberg and of course of everyones favorite 257 lifetime hitter Morgan. I never said he was the best just one of them Too many post as if the HOF should have 25 members - a starting 8, 5 man staff-,6 relievers and a stellar bench
You're 14 points too low for Morgan.

[714 on beer and dogs]

Brooks gets overwhelming sometimes!

[efin98]

How many people at other positions get the same kind of scrutiny that Kent is getting here? I mean come on, it's obvious he isn't going to get in on his glove alone. You can argue all you want about him compared to the great fielding 2nd basemen but his glove isn't what will put him on the ballot- his bat does. His numbers don't lie, he has done well enough offensively on a consistant basis to put him ahead of other members of the hall. That's a sure lock on the hall of fame. Whether he is a first balloter or not is the real issue...I doubt he gets in on the first ballot but he does get in evenually.

[mac195]

Kent has been a good hitter, but he's not even close to being one of the ten best offensive players of his generation. If he gets in, it will be because he had both a good bat and a very good glove, good enough that he could hold down a starting 2B job in MLB for many years.

[efin98]

Kent has been a good hitter, but he's not even close to being one of the ten best offensive players of his generation. If he gets in, it will be because he had both a good bat and a very good glove, good enough that he could hold down a starting 2B job in MLB for many years.

He doesn't have to be the best hitter of his generation, just the best hitting at his position of his generation. His numbers stand on their own stacked up against the other greats at his position, just not as good against other major leaguers at other positions. Good enough for the hall eventually.

[Cougar]

He's a second baseman who hits like an All-Star corner OF or 1b.

That makes all the difference in the world. It expands the lineup of every team he plays for by having a dominant offensive presence at a defense-first position.

[westsidegrounds]

Oh come on! The guy's outstanding feat so far is that he was twice # 4 in the league in RBI.

But wait, I forgot - there's that big stack of Gold Gloves he's won ...

[RuthMayBond]

Oh come on! The guy's outstanding feat so far is that he was twice # 4 in the league in RBI.If you ignore 2nd in hits and total bases in '02, first in extra base hits in '02, the three Silver Sluggers, the MVP!

[rich]

I voted no but could you change the "he's a hack" part. It's a bit much.

[westsidegrounds]

If you ignore 2nd in hits and total bases in '02, first in extra base hits in '02, the three Silver Sluggers, the MVP!


I went with the two consecutive fourth-place finishes because it shows such a pettern of consistency. :laugh

Ryno has seven S-Sluggers, plus many other accomplishments. He's a Hall of Fame second baseman.

[Cougar]

I went with the two consecutive fourth-place finishes because it shows such a pettern of consistency. :laugh

Ryno has seven S-Sluggers, plus many other accomplishments. He's a Hall of Fame second baseman.

Nice. Let's just ignore information that's inconvenient to our argument. We don't want any cognitive dissonance, do we?

I agree Sandberg is a HOF second baseman. I even believe he's a better player than Kent. But his high number of Silver Sluggers is in part a reflection of the fact that there weren't many other very good hitting 2b in the NL in the 80's. Who was his competition? Manny Trillo, Johnny Ray, Steve Sax, Robby Thompson. Fine players, but they weren't exactly scaring anyone very much with the bat in their hands.

Kent lost out four times to Craig Biggio when he was really rolling. He lost out to monster seasons from Mark Loretta, Jose Vidro, Edgardo Alfonzo, and Eric Young -- and Vidro's looks fishy when you compare his season side-by-side with Kent's.

The 2b position is just much deeper with offensive talent these days.

[westsidegrounds]

Nice. Let's just ignore information that's inconvenient to our argument. We don't want any cognitive dissonance, do we?

I agree Sandberg is a HOF second baseman. I even believe he's a better player than Kent. But his high number of Silver Sluggers is in part a reflection of the fact that there weren't many other very good hitting 2b in the NL in the 80's. Who was his competition? Manny Trillo, Johnny Ray, Steve Sax, Robby Thompson. Fine players, but they weren't exactly scaring anyone very much with the bat in their hands.

Kent lost out four times to Craig Biggio when he was really rolling. He lost out to monster seasons from Mark Loretta, Jose Vidro, Edgardo Alfonzo, and Eric Young -- and Vidro's looks fishy when you compare his season side-by-side with Kent's.

The 2b position is just much deeper with offensive talent these days.

Oh freaking right I was all hunched over in terror lest someone discover Jeff Kent's amazing warehouse full of other accomplishments - the one first in EBH, the one second in hits, the one second in TB - gee the list goes on and freaking on, doesn't it. But you found me out you brilliant researcher you. I'm moitified.

Cripes.

But of course you're right, Sandberg was the only 2B of his time who could hit at all. Or field. Whereas, competing against guys like Loretta how could anybody accomplish more than JK has. Seriously, he'd be an ornament to the HOF. He wouldn't lower the standard at all.

[Cougar]

More sarcasm that willfully misses the main point. Sandberg and Kent both lost Silver Slugger titles to otherwise ordinary players who had career years (Sax-Loretta, Samuel-Alfonzo).

But Sandberg had no peer at 2b in the NL remotely near the caliber of Craig Biggio. That, I believe, is beyond dispute.

Kent is a cleanup hitting second baseman -- a very rare breed. His job on offense, essentially, is to drive in runs, and he does it exceedingly well. No second baseman since WWII has more RBI. No second baseman ever has more home runs. These are not empty accomplishments.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

More sarcasm that willfully misses the main point. Sandberg and Kent both lost Silver Slugger titles to otherwise ordinary players who had career years (Sax-Loretta, Samuel-Alfonzo).

But Sandberg had no peer at 2b in the NL remotely near the caliber of Craig Biggio. That, I believe, is beyond dispute.

Kent is a cleanup hitting second baseman -- a very rare breed. His job on offense, essentially, is to drive in runs, and he does it exceedingly well. No second baseman since WWII has more RBI. No second baseman ever has more home runs. These are not empty accomplishments.

Kent has lots of HRs and lots of RBI to offer the HoF voters. And the HoF voters historically love to see lots of HRs and lots of RBIs. I say Kent gets in at worst by his third try.

[westsidegrounds]

His job on offense, essentially, is to drive in runs, and he does it exceedingly well. No second baseman since WWII has more RBI. No second baseman ever has more home runs. These are not empty accomplishments.

1207 career RBI through the 2004 season. By the end of this year he'll be well up into Del Ennis/ Ruben Sierra territory. Impressive.

If he were a really good 2B, instead of a mediocre one, him being a 2B would be relevant.

[RuthMayBond]

1207 career RBI through the 2004 season. By the end of this year he'll be well up into Del Ennis/ Ruben Sierra territory. Impressive.At what position did you say these guys played?

<If he were a really good 2B, instead of a mediocre one, him being a 2B would be relevant.>

If he were a really mediocre 2B, LOTS of 2B would be hitting much better than him :D

[westsidegrounds]

OK so the whole argument for him is that although he isn't an outstanding hitter, or an outstanding fielder, for a mediocre 2B he's a pretty good hitter.

Well fine. I guess everybody has their own image of what the HOF is for.

[Big_Mac]

as much as i hate kent, i think he deserves to be in HOF. But if it coems down to biggio and kent, i pick biggio

[jclinansmith]

IMHO...If Kent is HoF worthy then I guess Bonds gets a HUGE assist and a second nomination after he is already in. Kents best years by far happened alongside Bonds in the same lineup. Thats no mere coincidence....Take Bonds out and its safe to assume you could rely on his Bonds-less numbers and all of the sudden...Kents definatly not HoF material.
Do we know what kind of numbers he would put up not batting alongside the greatest power hitter this side of Ruth? No, we do not..we can only look at his bond-less years to derive any type of conclusion. However we can, beyond any shadow of a doubt, conclude that Bonds made a big difference in this guys numbers during the "meat" of his career.

On that alone, I just cant see Kent being HoF material.

[jclinansmith]

On that note...Im sitting here contemplating what kind of numbers Ryno would have put up in Kents place in the SF lineup. That surely would have been something to see.

[714 on beer and dogs]

For a couple years Andre Dawson was Bonds and that was pre Andro. Kent has put the numbers on the board, I can not understand the blind love for Joe Morgan , who had 5 marvelous years hitting behind Rose and Griffey and in front of May, Bench, Perez, Foster and the disdain for Jeff Kent. The guy has done his job on a HOF level

[714 on beer and dogs]

Kent, with the injury ravaged Dodgers is , as usual, on a top ten RBI pace. Hey the guy delivers, why the dislike?

[DoubleX]

I know a lot of people don't like the guy (myself included), but I think he's made a good Hall of Fame case for himself. He is the all-time leader in homeruns at the position (albeit in an era of offense), but he just keeps plugging away year after year, even though he's now in his late 30s. His OPS+ of 126 is also very impressive for a 2Bman.

[RuthMayBond]

I've got him about 14th best career all-around 2B (13th if you don't count Carew). Even with a mediocre year he should move up another slot. He's making a good case.

[Naliamegod]

I use to be against him, but now I relize that my stance was hypocritical and I cannot argue how he is not a Hall of Famer.

[Dontworry]

I use to be against him, but now I relize that my stance was hypocritical and I cannot argue how he is not a Hall of Famer.

I think he should get in, Multiple 30+ winshare seasons, a very good offensive career when taking his position into account.

Here's an article written about kent and his MONSTER seasons he had during his prime, which ranked among the best for a 2b ever.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/bp/1429830.html

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I've got him about 14th best career all-around 2B (13th if you don't count Carew). Even with a mediocre year he should move up another slot. He's making a good case.

That seems rather low for Kent at this point of his career doesn't it? :confused:

[RuthMayBond]

That seems rather low for Kent at this point of his career doesn't it? :confused:Where do you have him? (who's above and below?)

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I know a lot of people don't like the guy (myself included), but I think he's made a good Hall of Fame case for himself. He is the all-time leader in homeruns at the position (albeit in an era of offense), but he just keeps plugging away year after year, even though he's now in his late 30s. His OPS+ of 126 is also very impressive for a 2Bman.
We had a great thread about Kent about eight months ago.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=27374

[RuthMayBond]

We had a great thread about Kent about eight months ago.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=27374
Look at WARP in that thread's post 15

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Where do you have him? (who's above and below?)

I have him around 10th. I think from 6-12 is pretty close. Tomorrow I may have Kent 12th. :D

1. Morgan
2. Collins
3. Hornsby
4. Robinson
5. Gehringer
6. Biggio
7. Alomar
8. Nap Lajoie
9. Sandberg
10. Kent
11. Frisch
12. Doyle

[KCGHOST]

I am somewhat ambivalent about Kent's career. His HR total screams HoF for a 2B, but this was done during a very homer happy period, with bad pitching, a miniscule strike zone, and new band box size parks. Defensively he is not a disaster, but that is about it. His somewhat of a late start did hamper someof his counting numbers. I would like to see him do some serious padding the next couple three years.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Look at WARP in that thread's post 15
Post #15 is dated 4/22/05. How much has Kent climbed the list given his 2005 season?

2005: .289/.377/.512, 29 HR, 105 RBI, 100 R, 36 doubles, 136 OPS+

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I am somewhat ambivalent about Kent's career. His HR total screams HoF for a 2B, but this was done during a very homer happy period, with bad pitching, a miniscule strike zone, and new band box size parks. Defensively he is not a disaster, but that is about it. His somewhat of a late start did hamper someof his counting numbers. I would like to see him do some serious padding the next couple three years.
I think this is exaggerated a bit. Can't we say the same thing about Rogers Hornsby? The 1920s-30s was a very extreme offensive era. Regardless of that Hornsby was a GREAT hitter. Kent has played almost his entire career in very good pitcher's parks; Shea Stadium, Candlestick Park, Pac Bell, and Dodger Stadium. Obviously, Kent is not in Hornsby's class a hitter but that's not the standard to judge him by. He does fall short of league leading performances, though.

[DoubleX]

We had a great thread about Kent about eight months ago.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=27374

I remember, and a I had a few posts in that thread too. I can't believe the 2B list I made in that thread. My lists are always changing, but I have no idea what I was thinking then. Oh well, never hurts to revisit subjects, especially since we have another seasons in the books with which to consider Kent.

[DoubleX]

I have a very difficult time ranking Kent. I feel like Top 10 is too high, but anywhere much lower than that is too low. Regardless of era, he's one of the greatest offensive forces ever from 2B, but it's hard to estimate how far that carries him when you're usually looking for a more complete player at 2B.

My rankings today are:

1) Rogers Hornsby
2) Joe Morgan
3) Eddie Collins
4) Napoleon Lajoie
5) Jackie Robinson
6) Ryne Sandberg
7) Charlie Gehringer
8) Rod Carew
9) Craig Biggio
10) Roberto Alomar
11) Jeff Kent
12) Joe Gordon
13) Bobby Grich
14) Lou Whitaker
15) Frankie Frisch
16) Billy Herman
17) Tony Lazzeri
18) Larry Doyle
19) Bobby Doerr
20) Buddy Myer
21) Willie Randolph
22) Nellie Fox
23) Del Pratt
24) Red Schoendienst
25) Dick McAuliffe
26) Bill Mazeroski
27) Johnny Evers
28) Chuck Knoblauch
29) Billy Goodman
30) Bobby Avila

[digglahhh]

Kent is one of those guys who tests your own standards for HOF credibility.

If you are a firm top 15 at each position go automatically guy, then you can't deny Kent.

If you are more of a domination within your era/position isn't too important guy, he doesn't look so good.

I have trouble giving him the full credit of being 2B, because he is pretty bad.

Incidentally I think if you support Kent, you really just about have to support Larkin as well. They are the same type of case, not dominating overall numbers, but big totals in relation to their position, Kent being the more potent hitter, Larkin being the more well rounded player.

[Tigerfan1974]

Jeff Kent has chances???

[538280]

I think Jeff's whole case is reliant on the positional hitting adjustment. If you are one of those people who think's 2B's offensive numbers should be adjusted upward because of the low offensive level for the league's 2B, then he probably belongs in. If not, then he doesn't. I support those adjustments, so I have to support him, although I hate the man.

[DoubleX]

Jeff Kent has chances???

Much moreso than Mickey Lolich. :p

[DoubleX]

I think Jeff's whole case is reliant on the positional hitting adjustment. If you are one of those people who think's 2B's offensive numbers should be adjusted upward because of the low offensive level for the league's 2B, then he probably belongs in. If not, then he doesn't. I support those adjustments, so I have to support him, although I hate the man.

Funny, didn't you use the exact opposite argument against Chipper Jones? That Chipper should not benefit from the positional adjustment at 3B despite his monster 141 OPS+? If you support the adjustments and support Kent, despite his defensive inefficiencies at 2B, I can't see how you can't support Jones (or at least rank him higher than you do at 3B, which was 18th, I believe).

[Tigerfan1974]

Much moreso than Mickey Lolich. :p

Far fewer 2d basemen than pitchers to which to be compared!

And as some like to quote, no 'magic' numbers for 2d basemen.
"Most" 2d basemen don't have to worry about the power numbers and just hit for average.
The measure, I think, is fielding. Kent does not jump to my mind as an outstanding fielding 2d baseman.
Much to my dismay, I would have to take Robbie Alomar over Kent, and I don't like Alomar.

[DoubleX]

Far fewer 2d basemen than pitchers to which to be compared!

And as some like to quote, no 'magic' numbers for 2d basemen.
"Most" 2d basemen don't have to worry about the power numbers and just hit for average.
The measure, I think, is fielding. Kent does not jump to my mind as an outstanding fielding 2d baseman.
Much to my dismay, I would have to take Robbie Alomar over Kent, and I don't like Alomar.

I'd take Alomar over Kent as well, but that doesn't change the fact that with the bat, Kent has done things as a 2Bman that only Rogers Hornsby surpasses. That has to count for quite a bit.

[Tigerfan1974]

I'd take Alomar over Kent as well, but that doesn't change the fact that with the bat, Kent has done things as a 2Bman that only Rogers Hornsby surpasses. That has to count for quite a bit.

It should, but when I think of other 2d base HoFers; Hornsby, Robinson, Morgan, Lajoie, Sandberg, Carew; I just don't see Kent (or Alomar) in that group!

There are those in the 2d base group that do not belong; i.e. Mazeroski, and Kent doesn't either.

[DoubleX]

It should, but when I think of other 2d base HoFers; Hornsby, Robinson, Morgan, Lajoie, Sandberg, Carew; I just don't see Kent (or Alomar) in that group!

There are those in the 2d base group that do not belong; i.e. Mazeroski, and Kent doesn't either.

That's true, and you could probably add Charlie Gehringer to that group. To some, the Hall should just be limited to the very best, but in practice it has opened its doors to less exclusive group, and I think Kent will retire within that larger group.

Btw, what do you think of Craig Biggio? He and Alomar are pretty even in my book, with Biggio perhaps pulling slightly away now due to longevity.

[Tigerfan1974]

That's true, and you could probably add Charlie Gehringer to that group. To some, the Hall should just be limited to the very best, but in practice it has opened its doors to less exclusive group, and I think Kent will retire within that larger group.

Btw, what do you think of Craig Biggio? He and Alomar are pretty even in my book, with Biggio perhaps pulling slightly away now due to longevity.

(I was avoiding Gehringer so I am not ALWAYS throwing out Tiger names! :crazy )

I like Biggio, especially with his dedication to stay with the Astros.
Isn't he playing the outfield now though?

Of course, Yount made the switch from middle infield to outfield.

[DoubleX]

(I was avoiding Gehringer so I am not ALWAYS throwing out Tiger names! :crazy )

I like Biggio, especially with his dedication to stay with the Astros.
Isn't he playing the outfield now though?

Of course, Yount made the switch from middle infield to outfield.

Biggio played OF for two years while Kent was there, but moved back to 2B last year and had a pretty nice year, especially considering his age.

You shouldn't leave Gehringer out in fear of hometown bias, he legitimately belongs on that list. Now if you said Lou Whitaker as being among the very very best at 2B, then you might be accused of hometown bias :). (By the way, I'm a big Whitaker fan, and think he's at least a borsderline Hall candidate, which is a lot more credit than he receives, but he below Alomar and Biggio, IMO, and now probably Kent too).

[Tigerfan1974]

Biggio played OF for two years while Kent was there, but moved back to 2B last year and had a pretty nice year, especially considering his age.

You shouldn't leave Gehringer out in fear of hometown bias, he legitimately belongs on that list. Now if you said Lou Whitaker as being among the very very best at 2B, then you might be accused of hometown bias :). (By the way, I'm a big Whitaker fan, and think he's at least a borsderline Hall candidate, which is a lot more credit than he receives, but he below Alomar and Biggio, IMO, and now probably Kent too).

I agree Whitaker is borderline, at best. His longevity is one of many pluses.
Sadly, he has already fallen off the BBWAA ballot. I was kind of hoping he might ride on Trammell's coattail, if you will, and they could go in together someday. One of the best tandem's ever, IMO (bias included I think.)

[538280]

Funny, didn't you use the exact opposite argument against Chipper Jones? That Chipper should not benefit from the positional adjustment at 3B despite his monster 141 OPS+? If you support the adjustments and support Kent, despite his defensive inefficiencies at 2B, I can't see how you can't support Jones (or at least rank him higher than you do at 3B, which was 18th, I believe).

In modern baseball way past the spectrum jump there's a big difference for me in the positional adjustment between 2B and 3B. 2B has become an extreme defensive positoin, 3B is an offensive position.

[DoubleX]

In modern baseball way past the spectrum jump there's a big difference for me in the positional adjustment between 2B and 3B. 2B has become an extreme defensive positoin, 3B is an offensive position.

So isn't that even more reason to support Jones, considering he provides offense from 3B that can only really compare to Schmidt and Mathews?

[DoubleX]

I agree Whitaker is borderline, at best. His longevity is one of many pluses.
Sadly, he has already fallen off the BBWAA ballot. I was kind of hoping he might ride on Trammell's coattail, if you will, and they could go in together someday. One of the best tandem's ever, IMO (bias included I think.)

I definitely think Trammell should be in, but it's not looking good for him to be elected by the writers.

[538280]

So isn't that even more reason to support Jones, considering he provides offense from 3B that can only really compare to Schmidt and Mathews?

I don't think you're understanding. There has been a spectrum jump in major league baseball. Before about 1940, third base was considered a defensive position where defense is valued over offense much like second base is today. Second base was considered an offensive position much like third base is today. Past 1940, second base became the defensive position and third became the offensive position.

This hurts Jones in two ways. First, his offensive performance is very good but you need to consider that he played at a time when the average 3B was pretty good offensively. Frank Baker is a much more valuable offensive player because the 3B in his time weren't very good hitters. This is the same sort of logic I used on the Jeter/Larkin issue. Many people mentioned how shortstop has become stronger offensively over the past few years, and thus my chart about how much better Larkin's OPS was than the average SS in his time was unfair. My opinion on that is that when it's harder to find a great hitting player at a position, it makes those great hitters at that position all the more valuable. There have been lots of other great hitting 3B in Jones' era, in guys like Baker, Collins, and Groh's era there were very few great hitting 3B, just like there are few great hitting 2B today.

It also hurts him in fielding value. Because the bunt was much more important in early baseball, it was more important to have a good fielder at third base, and thus the 3B's fielding value was higher. In the modern era when the bunt isn't nearly as important, 3B isn't as important a defensive position and the thrid basemen of the time have less fielding value. Jones is a horrible fielder from 3B as it is, and compared with some of the great fielding early 3B like Groh and Collins, that's a huge deficit to overcome.

[digglahhh]

My opinion on that is that when it's harder to find a great hitting player at a position, it makes those great hitters at that position all the more valuable.


This is the type of statement that shows that you are unable to distinguish value from greatness.

A crop of great SS came along with Jeter, during Larkin's time there were very few, an overrated (albeit still awesome) Ripken, and Smith who's claim to fame is defense. There is nothing either player can do about that and is independent from their individual skills.

Sure those AS appearances were impressive for Larkin, but without looking anything up- name some NL shortstops from Larkin's era other than Smith. The difficulty of that task alone speaks to the lack of offensive talent at that position during Larkin's time.

[DoubleX]

I don't think you're understanding. There has been a spectrum jump in major league baseball. Before about 1940, third base was considered a defensive position where defense is valued over offense much like second base is today. Second base was considered an offensive position much like third base is today. Past 1940, second base became the defensive position and third became the offensive position.

This hurts Jones in two ways. First, his offensive performance is very good but you need to consider that he played at a time when the average 3B was pretty good offensively. Frank Baker is a much more valuable offensive player because the 3B in his time weren't very good hitters. This is the same sort of logic I used on the Jeter/Larkin issue. Many people mentioned how shortstop has become stronger offensively over the past few years, and thus my chart about how much better Larkin's OPS was than the average SS in his time was unfair. My opinion on that is that when it's harder to find a great hitting player at a position, it makes those great hitters at that position all the more valuable. There have been lots of other great hitting 3B in Jones' era, in guys like Baker, Collins, and Groh's era there were very few great hitting 3B, just like there are few great hitting 2B today.

It also hurts him in fielding value. Because the bunt was much more important in early baseball, it was more important to have a good fielder at third base, and thus the 3B's fielding value was higher. In the modern era when the bunt isn't nearly as important, 3B isn't as important a defensive position and the thrid basemen of the time have less fielding value. Jones is a horrible fielder from 3B as it is, and compared with some of the great fielding early 3B like Groh and Collins, that's a huge deficit to overcome.

Even considering that there has been better hitting from 3B in the past 60 years, only two 3Bman during that time have been as good from an offensive standpoint as Chipper Jones has been. I don't think you're quite grasping just how good of a hitter Jones is, especially in the context of 3B, regardless of any spectrum shift. I'll tell you this much, I'd take Chipper Jones to play 3B over Sal Bando anyday. :)

[csh19792001]

This is the type of statement that shows that you are unable to distinguish value from greatness.


And until he comes to understand the distinction, there will be many an impasse here, not just with him, but with the others who cannot discern between the two.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Kent is struggling now from a recent beaning. He may be playing through vision problems, and his career may be nearing an end if he can't shake this.

Kent is another Don Sutton Syndrome case; he's got numbers that clearly put him in the HOF as a middle infielder, but he's not thought of as a great player. Unlike many guys who are DSS afflicted, Kent has won a major award (2000 NL MVP) and has racked up single season stats that, for his position, are at the top of his position. In addition, Kent has played in pitcher's parks for just about all of his career.

Kent's defense is overly criticized. He isn't Ryne Sandberg, but he's been able to stay at second, and the fact that managers have chosen him to stay at second, rather than move him leftward on the defensive spectrum, indicates that he can still handle the position.

Kent has also been part of winning teams. He's played in the WS, and he was a key part of the 2004 Astro surge to the postseason, after a ragged start. His personality isn't what you'd like in a brother in law, but he's hardly a "clubhouse cancer".

On what basis would you deny Kent the HOF? That there are better 2B outside the Hall? In Kent's case, that's not valid, because 2B has the largest gray area of any position in HOF voting. Mazeroski is in, Frank White is not. Billy Herman is in; Buddy Myer is not. Bobby Doerr is in, Joe Gordon is not. And so on. That he doesn't have 500 HRs? That a .500 slugging pct. isn't enough?

Kent's a HOFer in quality. And he'll be enshrined someday.

[538280]

I honestly don't really get the argument against Kent. It seems to be "I can't rely on a positional adjustment to get someone in the HOF." I just think that's an absurd argument. Probably more than half of the 2Bmen in the HOF wouldn't be in if we held all positions to the same offensive standards. Also, there are a ton of 1B/corner OFers who would be automatic HOFers if we gave all positions the same hitting standards, but in reality have not been inducted and in some cases have received little support (guys like Bob Johnson and Albert Belle).

So, I just don't get how you can reject the positional adjustment in Kent's case. Think about it-who would be in the HOF among 2Bmen if we held 2Bmen to offensive stadards of a 1Bman? Probably five-Morgan, Collins, Hornsby, Nap Lajoie and Jackie Robinson, and Robinson wouldn't be in either if not for his intangible contributions. Frankie Frisch, a player who is considered to be a no questions asked HOFer, has a 110 OPS+. Do you think he'd get in with that if he was a 1Bman? No way. Joe Judge, who receives no HOF support (nor should he), was at 114 in a career of about the same length.

So, I think to reject the positional adjustment is absurd, and it goes against everything logical pretty much.

[digglahhh]

Chris,

Without positional adjustment Kent probably struggled to be a top 20 player in the league almost every year of his career.

I understand your argument, but what I basically said is that being tops at your position throughout some of your career is not, in and of itself a reason for induction, IMO.

I don't disparage anybody who supports him, but I'm on the fence at best.

And again, I don't support "positional adjustments" per se. Ranking should be composed of defensive and offensive value. A 2B gets more defensive value than a 1B, that's the adjustment right there. No need to adjust the offensive numbers on top of that and double credit middle infielders.

[RuthMayBond]

On what basis would you deny Kent the HOF? That there are better 2B outside the Hall? In Kent's case, that's not valid,Grich AND Whitaker and possibly Randolph, although it looks as though Kent's career will pass Randolph's very soon

[Fuzzy Bear]

Grich AND Whitaker and possibly Randolph, although it looks as though Kent's career will pass Randolph's very soon

I would also include Joe Gordon as being better than Kent. Larry Doyle and Del Pratt may, or may not have been better than Kent. I rate Kent ahead of Randolph and Buddy Myer.

The reason the "ahead of Kent in line" isn't valid is because of the huge gray area HOF electors have created at second base. At third, the HOF has been incredibly stingy, at shortstop, the HOF has been kind of generous, but at second base you have an extraordinary number of guys in with corresponding talent not in.

Billy Herman is in, Buddy Myer is not.

Bill Mazeroski is in, Frank White is not.

Nellie Fox is in, Willie Randolph is not.

Bobby Doerr is in, Joe Gordon is not.

Then, too, there are a huge number of inexplicable rejections. Lou Whitaker, one and done??? Ryne Sandberg, not a 1st or 2nd ballot pick??? Joe Gordon, an MVP, not in??? Bobby Grich???

That there are better 2B than Kent outside the HOF is almost irrelevant because there are a roughly equal number of inferior players at 2B who are in.

[Dodgerfan1]

I am not running a poll here, nor am I, in any way, touting this guy for HOF consideration. At least, not at this point in his career. His numbers are pretty impressive, especially for a second baseman. Yeah, the guy's got a bit of a personality problem. He grates some people the wrong way, and yeah, the dude lied about how he injured himself a few years back that caused a bit of a stir. But the guy comes up clutch fairly frequently and he's beginning to approach elite numbers for a middle infielder. His lifetime fielding percentage is .979. He's never been a blur on the basepaths.

So what do you all think?

[Dodgerfan1]

post deleted by author

[brett]

Although I don't particularly like RBI for evaluation, by the time a second baseman has accumulated 1500 RBI, he's pretty much in. He needs 2 decent years to get that "lock". His value puts him very close if not in right now.


I am not running a poll here, nor am I, in any way, touting this guy for HOF consideration. At least, not at this point in his career. His numbers are pretty impressive, especially for a second baseman. Yeah, the guy's got a bit of a personality problem. He grates some people the wrong way, and yeah, the dude lied about how he injured himself a few years back that caused a bit of a stir. But the guy comes up clutch fairly frequently and he's beginning to approach elite numbers for a middle infielder. His lifetime fielding percentage is .979. He's never been a blur on the basepaths.

So what do you all think?

[Fuzzy Bear]

I think Kent SHOULD go in. He's in the decline phase of his career, but his BA, OBP, and power stats are excellent for a 2B. His defense has been overly criticized; he's a good 2B. He's won an MVP. He's played for winning teams and been a key part of that winning.

Kent holds the record for most HRs by a second baseman. He's at 345 HRs. He came back to hit .292 this year with an OBP above his career norms; he's been patient at the plate. One wonders what he has left in the tank, but he has a nine year run that is flat out impressive for a second baseman.

Kent's big obstacle to the Hall is that people don't think of him as a HOFer; he's got Don Sutton syndrome. His second biggest obstacle is that slugging second baseman, as a group, have done poorly in HOF balloting; there are many deserving candidates better than Kent that are NOT in (Bobby Grich, Joe Gordon, and Lou Whitaker are all outside the HOF). On the other hand, many INFERIOR second baseman are in the HOF (Red Schoendienst, Bill Mazeroski, Billy Herman, Tony Lazzeri). Second base has the biggest gray area of any position in HOF balloting, so this does not augur well for Kent.

If Kent could get to 400 HRs and stay at 2B, he's improve his chances a whole lot. I don't think he'll get there at this point, but he's hardly dead in the water. He's a deserving candidate and he has my endorsement.

[Wee Willie]

I think he would fall short if his career ended now. Offensively, he's had several very good seasons for a 2B, and his career OPS+ of 126 is also very good for a 2B. But....

He has only been mediocre defensively. No Gold Gloves, and I've never heard him being mentioned among the better NL fielding 2nd basemen. His stats indicate he's either average or slightly below average.

Also, he's just barely over 2000 games. If he can maintain an OPS+ above 120 through about 2400 games, then he would probably have the offensive credentials.

Kent isn't going to earn many points for intangibles, either. He's never really been a team leader and has alienated teammates on occasion.

The door hasn't closed on him, but he still has some work to do.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I think he would fall short if his career ended now. Offensively, he's had several very good seasons for a 2B, and his career OPS+ of 126 is also very good for a 2B. But....

He has only been mediocre defensively. No Gold Gloves, and I've never heard him being mentioned among the better NL fielding 2nd basemen. His stats indicate he's either average or slightly below average.

Also, he's just barely over 2000 games. If he can maintain an OPS+ above 120 through about 2400 games, then he would probably have the offensive credentials.

Kent isn't going to earn many points for intangibles, either. He's never really been a team leader and has alienated teammates on occasion.

The door hasn't closed on him, but he still has some work to do.

Really, if he hasn't done it by now, he's not going to. I think he'll end up with 365-380 HRs max, with no more than ONE more good year.

By the standards of a middle infielder, what he's done SHOULD be enough. He's not won a Gold Glove, but he's stayed at the 2B position; he's not moved off it to 1B or OF. Plus, he's won an MVP award!!! And he leads his position in career HRs!!!

Barring an out of body experience with Carlton Fisk, Kent isn't going to last until age 45. He really needs to be evaluated on what he's done to date.

[Biggtone23]

He is a product of the era. Never, even during his MVP season, has a team said "hey dont let Jeff Kent beat you" I dont remember the questions off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure he would fail the Keltner list.

[Fuzzy Bear]

He is a product of the era. Never, even during his MVP season, has a team said "hey dont let Jeff Kent beat you" I dont remember the questions off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure he would fail the Keltner list.

Kent has been the best second baseman in the NL over a period of years. It's not been a long period, and he had competition, but his competition (Alomar and Biggio) are sure HOFers. There has been an excess of talent at 2B during Kent's career.

Kent has won an MVP award.

Kent leads his position in career HRs.

Most middle infielders with Kent's batting stats are in the HOF, although some aren't.

Kent has had nine straight All-Star caliber seasons with two different teams.

Kent's not an "inner circle" HOFer, but he belongs.

[leecemark]

--Kent should make the Hall and I think he eventually will. I don't expect it to be smooth sailing for him though.

[Lindseynelson]

I think Kent is a sure fire Hall Member.
He has put up numbers that have equalled or bettered RAJAHs in some cases.He has always delivered at bat and has been a solid fielder.
I hope he gets in .
I remember when Keith,prior to the divorce that left him tapped and suddenly media friendly, Hernandez tried to make Kents life miserable with the Mets.
Well guess what Kent has been as consistent a run producer as anyone in the game and on a personal note I admired him for telling St Barry to get his butt in gear

[Fuzzy Bear]

Kent is helping himself a lot this year. His stats are close to his career norms, and that's good for a late decline-phase season.

Kent is still playing 2B. This is good for Kent; a move to 1B will not help his HOF chances; he'll be remembered as a poor first baseman rather than a star second baseman.

Kent will be over 375 HRs and 1,500 RBIs if he plays another year, in all likelihood.

Kent is still not viewed by many as a HOFer, even though he's done many of the things a HOFer is supposed to do. This perception is not likely to be altered much more, as Kent is in his decline phase; he's not going to win another MVP award. I think Kent would be an odds-on favorite for the HOF if he were able to get to 400 HRs, but that's a long haul at this point in his career, and I don't think he'll get there.

[Cougar]

I believe Kent has signed to play in 2008.

[John Shoemaker]

IMO Jeff Kent is a Hall of Famer right now - but I think he may play several more years.

[natsnsoxfan]

Hes a lock IMO.

[jalbright]

I've merged some threads over the past years (the poll started about 2 years ago) on Kent. Please keep that in mind when referring to previous posts.

Jim Albright

[Cougar]

I've merged some threads over the past years (the poll started about 2 years ago) on Kent. Please keep that in mind when referring to previous posts.

Jim Albright

You missed the most recent thread, "Jeff Kent's Chances?"

[Honus Wagner Rules]

--Kent should make the Hall and I think he eventually will. I don't expect it to be smooth sailing for him though.

I'm with you leecemark. I'm not sure how the HoF voters will see Kent. But I suspect that they will focus on his 1,500+ RBI and perhaps 400+ HRs. Being the all time record holder for HRs and perhaps RBI among second basemen will carry a lot for weight in the voter's minds. His eight 100 RBI seasson will help as well. The HoF voters just love HRs and RBI's.

[jalbright]

You missed the most recent thread, "Jeff Kent's Chances?"

That explains why the one set of posts didn't show up. Thanks. The situation has now been rectified.

[Baseball Guru]

He obviously is one of the most productive 2B in history, but how much of that has been a product of the Juiced Era? I kind of think that in any era, 350 homeruns by a secondbasemen is impressive.

Not a big fan of his personally but I absolutely agree that it is a VERY impressive career by a 2B and he's definitely in IMO...

[penneyAA]

A lock a couple years ago

[plask_stirlac]

He's been on fire for 10 seasons. With over 2500 hits, I assume (at 2337), and maybe 400 HR like Cal, won't he get in? Top 30 in doubles.

Where do the hits rank for second basemen?

[RuthMayBond]

A lock a couple years agoThe last two years he's had OPS+ of 118 and 122. Pretty much the same as '03 and '04

[PVNICK]

I tend to agree with the people that put him in a class with Grich and Gordon and thus out. But I think the career triple crown numbers should get him especially since they will be the most by any second baseman.

As for the positional adjustment or lack thereof the numbers in baseball reference seem to indicate he was about average defensively. I have never heard him referred to as being more than that. If more complete numbers than I saw indicate that he was a bad second baseman then I cannot see how he should get the nbenefit of a positonal adjustment. But, and this is taking a leap of faith, if he has played the last 10-15 years for several teams and managers at 2B chances are he is not killing the teams there.

[plask_stirlac]

The last two years he's had OPS+ of 118 and 122. Pretty much the same as '03 and '04

I think he meant that's icing on the cake. Sorry if you meant that as well.

[RuthMayBond]

I think he meant that's icing on the cake. Sorry if you meant that as well.I'd think he should be in by now, but the grey ink guys won't like him

[Brad Harris]

Doesn't matter. Comparing Kent to Hall of Fame second basemen and the players at his position who are the leading candidates outside the Hall, Kent stacks up favorably. Top 25 all-time. He's deserving.

[RuthMayBond]

Doesn't matter. Comparing Kent to Hall of Fame second basemen and the players at his position who are the leading candidates outside the Hall, Kent stacks up favorably. Top 25 all-time. He's deserving.Top 25 of which?

[KCGHOST]

I have Alomar, Grich and Whitaker above Kent at this time. I would be hard pressed to vote for him without those guys going in first. I guess I should get over that as Grich and Whitaker have as much chance as I do with the voters.

[Brad Harris]

Top 25 of which?

Top 25 second basemen.

To my way of thinking, someone who is among the top 20-25 at his position needs a darn good reason to not be elected.

[Brad Harris]

I have Alomar, Grich and Whitaker above Kent at this time. I would be hard pressed to vote for him without those guys going in first.

While I agree with your queue, when Kent hits the BBWAA ballot, Alomar will already be in and Grich, Whitaker will not be on the ballot to compete for that vote. I understand the feeling that Bobby and Lou deserve it more - and I agree - but I can't see how that would prevent someone from supporting Kent's election.

If one were to say that Grich and Whitaker were better than Kent, but are not, themselves, Hall-worthy, that's one thing. They'd be unelected because they weren't worthy, but I don't understand why another deserving player should be penalized because a more deserving player isn't in yet. This doesn't appear to be an uncommon sentiment either. Understandable sentiment, yes. Rational voting mechanism? I'm skeptical.

Great mention of three very deserving players, Ghost. I'd add Biggio to that lot, too.

One name - and someone else I'd vote for - who keeps coming to mind whenever people mention Kent is Joe Gordon. How similar do you guys think their cases are?

[RuthMayBond]

Top 25 second basemen.

To my way of thinking, someone who is among the top 20-25 at his position needs a darn good reason to not be elected.Actually, top 25 is kinda pushing it, but I don't see Kent any lower (or much higher at this point) than the 13th best career for a 2B

[Walt Zink]

i have to admit, with kent i am on the fence. if he can manage to lift his totals above 2500 hits and 400 HRs? then that would do it for me.

and alomar? he's not a lock. what does everyone best know him for? ask the average fan who watches baseball with some regularity and they'll remember him spitting on an ump. that one incident is gonna hurt more than people think. if he does make it, it'll be pretty close, i think.

[Brad Harris]

and alomar? he's not a lock. what does everyone best know him for? ask the average fan who watches baseball with some regularity and they'll remember him spitting on an ump. that one incident is gonna hurt more than people think. if he does make it, it'll be pretty close, i think.

The "average" fan knows Yogi Berra more for his "Yogisms". The "average" fan knows Willie Mays more for "the Catch." The "average" fan knows Lou Gehrig more for the disease named for him. Much as I complain about the BBWAA being the primary guardians of the Hall of Fame, they do a better job than the "average" fan. The Hall is there to inform and educate people about baseball's past by honoring its legacy of great players. That implies that someone who knows more than the "average" fan is running the show. While that's certainly not true of certain individual voters, thank God the writers will remember Alomar for more than the Hirshbeck incident. They should. It's the kind of thing they're paid to do. While that episode legitimately plays into the "character" part of the Hall's voting guidelines, it's hard to imagine enough voters keeping Alomar out of the Hall for very long primarily because of one unfortunate memory tarnishing his otherwise stellar resume. Perhaps he's not a "lock" on the first ballot. But it's unlikely he'd be kept out for long.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I was thinking of Jeff Kent today. I was checking out his line on Baseball-Reference.com. Kent's really had two careers.

Through age 29 (757 G)
.269/.334/.455, 106 OPS+

After age 29 (1420 G)
.301/.373/.529, 133 OPS+

I really don't know what to make of it. :shrug:

[fenrir]

well he was on the same team with bonds for a long time...

[Chickazoola]

I was thinking of Jeff Kent today. I was checking out his line on Baseball-Reference.com. Kent's really had two careers.

Through age 29 (757 G)
.269/.334/.455, 106 OPS+

After age 29 (1420 G)
.301/.373/.529, 133 OPS+

I really don't know what to make of it. :shrug:

I think him not being a prototypical 2nd basemen made it difficult for organizations to know what to do with him. So he bounced around alot before getting a chance to play everyday.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

well he was on the same team with bonds for a long time...

True, but when he left the Giants he continued to be an excellent player.

[Brad Harris]

I was thinking of Jeff Kent today. I was checking out his line on Baseball-Reference.com. Kent's really had two careers.

Through age 29 (757 G)
.269/.334/.455, 106 OPS+

After age 29 (1420 G)
.301/.373/.529, 133 OPS+

I really don't know what to make of it. :shrug:

Kent didn't debut in the bigs until age 24. He didn't have a 500 at-bat season until he was 29. Could this be partially explained by developmental delays? Had Kent received more playing time at a younger age, that divide might have occurred at age 27.

The more "obvious" candidate, sadly, would seem to be steroids because of the actual years we're talking about. :( I should add that in no way do I suspect Kent of being a steroid user. I only mentioned this because it's a possible explanation given the environment in which his increased production occurred.

[Paul Wendt]

Top 25 second basemen.

To my way of thinking, someone who is among the top 20-25 at his position needs a darn good reason to not be elected.

If that is top 25 in official major league baseball history, the 10-season criterion, that seems to me about right looking forward to the 2020s when middle-age veterans, A-Rod to Pujols, will be considered.

On the other hand, if everyone voted for his top 25 precisely, how many would enjoy 75% support? Would it be more than 15 per fielding position? Would there be 20 at any position?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Getting back to Kent through age 29. How many eventual HoFers had such a poor start to a career? Going into the 1997 season the idea that Kent would be a possible HoF candidate at the end of his career would have seemed completely ludicrous I'm sure.

[RuthMayBond]

Getting back to Kent through age 29. How many eventual HoFers had such a poor start to a career? Going into the 1997 season the idea that Kent would be a possible HoF candidate at the end of his career would have seemed completely ludicrous I'm sure.Maybe Herb Pennock

[Freakshow]

Getting back to Kent through age 29. How many eventual HoFers had such a poor start to a career? Going into the 1997 season the idea that Kent would be a possible HoF candidate at the end of his career would have seemed completely ludicrous I'm sure.
Dazzy Vance notched his first win at age 31.

[jalbright]

However, both of the examples of a slow start mentioned thus far are pitchers rather than a position player, like Kent. Perhaps the question should be modified to include that qualifier, given that the career trajectory of great pitchers is far less standard than that of great position players.

[RuthMayBond]

However, both of the examples of a slow start mentioned thus far are pitchers rather than a position player, like Kent. Perhaps the question should be modified to include that qualifier, given that the career trajectory of great pitchers is far less standard than that of great position players.Palmeiro had a slow start his first five years (Sosa his first four), 'course they ain't in the Hall yet either. Morgan 1963-71 was no great shakes

[Honus Wagner Rules]

However, both of the examples of a slow start mentioned thus far are pitchers rather than a position player, like Kent. Perhaps the question should be modified to include that qualifier, given that the career trajectory of great pitchers is far less standard than that of great position players.

Good point, Jim. I should have specified "position player". I can't think of any other HoF position players that were just a run-of-the-mill ballplayers in their 20s and morphed into HoF players in their 30s.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Palmeiro had a slow start his first five years, 'course he ain't in the Hall yet either
Palmeiro is somewhat of a similar case. However, Palmeiro was also much younger than Kent when he reached the majors. His first five seasons were from ages 21-25. After his age 29 season, Palmeiro's OPS+ was 131 which is much higher than Kent's 106 OPS+.

[fenrir]

i see kent as the position player version of kevin brown. brown before the age of 30 was barely above league average. his career era+ was 107 in 1278.7 ip. starting at the age of 30 through the end of his career brown then went on to make a hall of fame case for himself. he had an era+ of 142 and he pitched 1977.7 innings, more then before. so kent does have someone very similar to him. but then again, brown was named on the mitchell report as a steroid user...so this comparison probably doesnt help kent at all...lol.

[Go get em Tigers]

No doubt, he has had a remarkable career. Right now, he has 365 HR's and 1459 Rbi's. His numbers have tailed off in the last couple of years, and he just turned 40. He could play a couple of more years, and he could retire in the middle of this season. Who knows?
Hitting big milestones like 400 HR and 1500 RBI's will help his HOF chances, I believe, but he still seems to be lacking a little 'something'. He has "only" had five All Star appearances. I think most HOFers have closer to 10. Kent's MVP helps, but he's a little short in the "black ink/gray ink" department, although his HOF Standards and HOF monitor numbers seem to say he has a pretty good shot.

[Paul Wendt]

Palmeiro is somewhat of a similar case. However, Palmeiro was also much younger than Kent when he reached the majors. His first five seasons were from ages 21-25. After his age 29 season, Palmeiro's OPS+ was 131 which is much higher than Kent's 106 OPS+.

Roberto Clemente is much more similar than Palmeiro. According to baseball-reference, he hit OPS+ 149 in his last ten seasons, 105 before that. But
(a) Clemente was 28.8 years old at the start of those ten seasons, not "in his thirties" (Kent age 30.1), and
(b) he was already a good hitter. At the end of his first five seasons, age 25.2, his career average was down at 89.

[Brad Harris]

No doubt, he has had a remarkable career. Right now, he has 365 HR's and 1459 Rbi's. His numbers have tailed off in the last couple of years, and he just turned 40. He could play a couple of more years, and he could retire in the middle of this season. Who knows?
Hitting big milestones like 400 HR and 1500 RBI's will help his HOF chances, I believe, but he still seems to be lacking a little 'something'. He has "only" had five All Star appearances. I think most HOFers have closer to 10. Kent's MVP helps, but he's a little short in the "black ink/gray ink" department, although his HOF Standards and HOF monitor numbers seem to say he has a pretty good shot.

He's likely to finish with 400 HR and 1,500 RBI. I can't imagine the BBWAA could justify excluding a second baseman with those totals. The best part of Kent's election is that it should shine light on Joe Gordon's case in much the way that Bruce Sutter's election paved the way for Goose Gossage to eventually follow.

[Bravesfan1984]

Chris,

Without positional adjustment Kent probably struggled to be a top 20 player in the league almost every year of his career.

I understand your argument, but what I basically said is that being tops at your position throughout some of your career is not, in and of itself a reason for induction, IMO.

I don't disparage anybody who supports him, but I'm on the fence at best.

And again, I don't support "positional adjustments" per se. Ranking should be composed of defensive and offensive value. A 2B gets more defensive value than a 1B, that's the adjustment right there. No need to adjust the offensive numbers on top of that and double credit middle infielders.


I agree there have not been a lot of great second basemen compared to other positions so saying that he was the best is not saying that much. Even though he did win an mvp he was only in the top 5 mvp voting once.

[henrich]

What are peoples' thoughts on Jeff Kents chances? He already has the record for most career homeruns by a 2B, and he'll likely finish his career in the 350-400 homerun range; he has an MVP award; and 7 100+ RBI seasons, tied for the most by a 2B.

He obviously is one of the most productive 2B in history, but how much of that has been a product of the Juiced Era? I kind of think that in any era, 350 homeruns by a secondbasemen is impressive.


My thoughts on Kent with steroids are that I remember one day Kent took a slug at Bonds, and I my thoughts are that Kent loves the game and wouldn't disrespect the game. He's blue collar, fought for everything he's got and to cheapen the game the way Bonds was allegedly doing it not only lessens the player doing the drugs, but it puts a cloud around everyone. I think Kent took Bonds to task for it and punched him. I don't think steroids with Kent. I think 10th best 2B all-time as he comes in at 10,583 in the H-Factor behind Lazzeri and ahead of Sandberg both in the Hall.

[henrich]

He's likely to finish with 400 HR and 1,500 RBI. I can't imagine the BBWAA could justify excluding a second baseman with those totals. The best part of Kent's election is that it should shine light on Joe Gordon's case in much the way that Bruce Sutter's election paved the way for Goose Gossage to eventually follow.


Amen preach it brother. I see Gordon as one of the few outrageous position errors prior to the age of free agency/DH. These 4 are the worst, Gordon, Nettles, Davis, W., and Hodges.

[Fuzzy Bear]

He's likely to finish with 400 HR and 1,500 RBI. I can't imagine the BBWAA could justify excluding a second baseman with those totals. The best part of Kent's election is that it should shine light on Joe Gordon's case in much the way that Bruce Sutter's election paved the way for Goose Gossage to eventually follow.


I no longer believe that Kent will make it to 400 HRs. He's only hit 11 HRs this year; an indication that he's suffered a permanent loss of power (although he's picked up his offensive pace considerably since the Dodgers acquired Manny Ramirez).

The real problem with Kent is that he's now at the point in his career where he is a defensive liability at 2B. He's fielding .975 vs. a .982 league average. His range factors are at a poor 3.82 vs. a 4.05 league average. That he's declined in BOTH areas of defense indicates the obvious; that Kent is really no longer up to playing 2B, and the Dodgers keep him there (wisely, at this point) because they don't have anyone better.

Kent could still be productive for a year or two in a utility role. He could extend his career by doing the 1B/OF utility role, with some time at 3B and 2B here and there. He has no more than a normal platoon drag, so he's not yet reduced to a platoon player; he can get ABs vs. RHP and not hurt his team. That's the only way he'll make it to 400, and even then, he'll have trouble getting there.

Kent has done more during this decade than any other player to bolster his HOF chances. At the end of the 1999 season, Kent had put together three All-Star quality seasons, and had played in his first ASG. Despite this, no one believed he was on a HOF path. Even after 2002, when Kent had played in 3 ASGs, won an MVP, and played on a pennant-winning team, few even then viewed Kent as a potential HOFer; the phrase "the great Jeff Kent" drew laughter from serious observers. After 2005, when Kent went well over the 300 HR career mark, the consensus was that he was "borderline", but he began to gain some serious traction regarding his HOF chances.

What's happened over the past few years is that the magnitude of Kent's accomplishments have settled into the public mind. Some of this occurred due to the fading of Alomar and Biggio; Kent enjoyed some time where he was recognized as the best 2B in his league. Kent took the career lead in HRs for a second baseman, which puts him in the "why not" category. And there are a lot of other "why nots" for Kent that have, only in recent years, began to sink into the public mind.

In 2004 I was doubtful that Kent would be elected to the HOF. Now, I believe he will. I doubt he'll be a 1st ballot choice, but I believe the writers will elect him fairly quickly, and a 1st ballot election is far from out of the question. He's come the longest way of any HOF candidate in the 2000s, with the runner-up being Curt Schilling. And I think Schilling hasn't done anywhere near as much as Kent in this decade.

[Cougar]

Kent is signed through next year...if he finishes this season at something like 378-380 HR, it's around 50-50 at worst that he gets to 400, especially if he hasn't ruled out playing in 2010.

He's a below average second baseman at this point, but as long as he's producing above average offense for the position, the Dodgers will live with it, as long as he doesn't get too egregiously bad. And you never know...people have off seasons defensively as well as offensively -- Kent's been banged up all year; he may recover some of his defensive value next season if he gets healthier over the winter. That's not a great bet at 40, but it's possible.

He won't move to 3b or the OF -- he auditioned at 3rd early in his career and just didn't have the arm for the position, and he's probably too slow afoot for the OF, although I suppose you could hide him in a corner OF slot for a while. His only other real positional option is 1b, but offensively he's only around average for the slot.

[Fuzzy Bear]

He won't move to 3b or the OF -- he auditioned at 3rd early in his career and just didn't have the arm for the position, and he's probably too slow afoot for the OF, although I suppose you could hide him in a corner OF slot for a while. His only other real positional option is 1b, but offensively he's only around average for the slot.

Kent couldn't play regularly at any of these positions, but he hits enough to be a backup at all of them.

I'm sure the Dodgers will try to squeeze another year out of Kent if they have him signed. I think his power loss is permanent, even if he has a rebound defensively.

[Cougar]

Kent couldn't play regularly at any of these positions, but he hits enough to be a backup at all of them.

I'm sure the Dodgers will try to squeeze another year out of Kent if they have him signed. I think his power loss is permanent, even if he has a rebound defensively.

Well, there's power loss and there's power loss. Kent's hitting for a decent average (given his current surge), so I'm not sure he's pulling a full McGriff.

The fact is, if he finishes the year with 14 or 15 HR (he's got 11 now, so that's more or less his current pace), hitting 20 next season isn't out of the question by any stretch.

I suspect he's losing 3-4 HR a year because Chavez Ravine is his home park. Then again, other than short stints in Skydome, Jacobs Field and Minute Maid Park, Kent's spent his career in pitcher's parks.

[OleMissCub]

http://www.dailynews.com/ci_10347355?source=rss


Dodgers second baseman Jeff Kent, a five-time All-Star, former National League Most Valuable Player and almost-certain future Hall of Famer, might have played his last game in the major leagues.

Kent was sent back to Los Angeles for an MRI exam after leaving Friday night's game at Arizona with pain in his left knee. Although that exam hadn't taken place as of game time Saturday night, club officials had a strong suspicion as to what it likely would show.

Kent, 40, has been playing through pain from slightly torn cartilage in his knee for about a month, fully aware that the continued grind of playing baseball on an everyday basis meant there was a strong risk of additional, more painful tearing.

[BlueBlood]

Well, if it's over now, it's still straight to the Hall. Or at least should be.

[henrich]

This guy has been my favorite player for years, I really hope it's not as bad as the experts are fearing. It would be really cool to see Classic's post realized of 400/1500. I would vote for him if I had a vote, and I hope 75% feel the same way.

[Walt Zink]

a good, but not great player. if he's done now, i would easily say no. sandberg was a better all around second baseman. kent was a very good hitter for a handful of years, but he has a poor OBP and honestly just not much else sticks out about the guy. he's gonna be hard pressed to get upwards of even 50% of the needed votes, i'd say.

[hellborn]

Ryne played in a tougher offensive era than Jeff, but his OBP is also quite a bit lower, .344 to .355. I'd probably take Ryne at his best as a more complete player, but Kent has put together quite a career with the stick, and has been good enough at 2B to stay there for a long time. It would be a major slight for Kent to not be elected at some point.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

a good, but not great player. if he's done now, i would easily say no. sandberg was a better all around second baseman. kent was a very good hitter for a handful of years, but he has a poor OBP and honestly just not much else sticks out about the guy. he's gonna be hard pressed to get upwards of even 50% of the needed votes, i'd say.
It seems your personal view of Kent is coming out here. How will the HoF voters see Kent? You have a second baseman that:

-Won the 2000 NL MVP
-Eight 100-RBI seasons
-376 career HRs
-1516 career RBI
-560 career doubles

Kent has more HRs than any other second basemen. His 1,516 RBI are third all time among second basemen behind only LaJoie (1,599) and Hornsby (1,584). Kent's 560 doubles are fourth all time among second basemen. Only Biggio (668), LaJoie (667), and Gehringer (574) had more doubles. Even in runs, Biggio has the 9th most ever by a second baseman.

Now, these stats are not necessarily the best way to evaluate Kent but the HOF voters love stats like HRs and RBI and Kent has lots of both. It doesn't make sense that the HoF voters will see the HRs and the RBI's and the MVP and only 50% will vote for him. Also, Kent was a great hitter for more than a "handful of years". He was the best hitting second basemen. You hammer on Kent for his supposedly low OBP (.355) yet Sandberg's OBP was ever lower (.344). Also, Sandberg's hitting stats were great inflated by his home park. Kent played most of his career in tough pitcher's parks (Shea Stadium, Candlestick Park, AT&T Park, and Dodger Stadium) Kent is clearly the superior hitter to Sandberg.

[1905 Giants]

THis has probably been done before, but, well, I'm curious:

Career Stats (17 seasons):
4 Silver Sluggers
5 All-Star Games
1 MVP
123 OPS+
.290 BA
377 HRs
1518 RBI

[Cowtipper]

Will he make it, yes. Should he make it, yes.

Here's another Kent thread for your perusal:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?27374-Jeff-Kent&highlight=kent

[KCGHOST]

I think he should make it, but am not sure he will. I am not sure his hitting will be enough to offset his indifferent defensive contributions and his less than great relationship with the press.

[Cougar]

That thread was epic.

Maybe the main takeaway there was, when the poll was first posted, it was Jan 2002, and 7 out of 8 voters either thought he was already a HOFer or needed a "few more good seasons".

Kent was productive through the 2008 season.

[jalbright]

Will he make it, yes. Should he make it, yes.

Here's another Kent thread for your perusal:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?27374-Jeff-Kent&highlight=kent

That thread has now been merged into this one.

[Cougar]

The old poll results are gone!

[jalbright]

The old poll results are gone!

True. I didn't think they were so valuable as to require leaving the threads separate--and I have a strong policy of keeping one thread per person unless there are legitimately different topics discussed. I will point out that the old poll started when Kent was still active and thus by this point had limited value.