Ask The Umpire

[Mattingly]

I've received permission from Bob (aka, "bluezebra") when I'd asked him to host this thread. He's been an umpire in various amateur leagues for 47 years, has watched baseball for 60 years. If you have any questions about umpiring and his thoughts on baseball, please ask in this thread.

Here are Bob's credentials:

I began in Chicago in 1956, and continued when I moved to Southern California in 1963. Started doing Little League, like about everyone else.
Baseball: LL, most other Youth Leagues, Parks & Rec, adult men's, American Legion, high school, etc.
I formed a crew, and worked three of the Silver Bullets (women's team) games (first one was on ESPN) against a local men's team, at Mavericks Stadium (Class A, California League).
Got another crew together to work an exhibition game between the Korean National Team (pre-1996 Olympics) and the Mavericks.
Also worked a local high school All-Star Game.
Softball: Fast pitch, Youth leagues, adult men, adult women, high school (was BU for LA City AAAA Semi-Final Game), college, Parks & Rec.
Slow Pitch, Adult men, adult women, high school, co-ed, Parks & Rec.
Since 1997, I keep the batting stats for the message board operator at Mavericks Stadium (re-named Stater Bros. Stadium).
Since 2000, I write a sports column for a local weekly newspaper chain. I cover high school, community college, and the Mavericks.

Thank you in advance for your participation and encouragement.

[Jake Patterson]

Thanks Mattingly and BlueZebra,

This will definately come in handy.

Jake

[Jake Patterson]

I feel this is a great idea so I am going to sticky it here for a while.
Jake

[steve R]

Hi,

Is there a rule in Little League baseball that states the pitcher shall not wear a white glove. just wondering.

Thanks

Steve:happy: :happy: :happy:

[AutographCollector]

Can a switch hitter actually switch to the other side of the plate during an "at bat"?
For example: Carlos Beltran is a switch hitter... count is 1-1... he is currently batting right... but opts to bat left during that particular at bat. Can he?

[Jake Patterson]

Hi,

Is there a rule in Little League baseball that states the pitcher shall not wear a white glove. just wondering.

Thanks

Steve:happy: :happy: :happy:


I no longer have the actual LL rules, but I believe the pitcher cannot use anything that will camouflage the ball.

[jbooth]

Can a switch hitter actually switch to the other side of the plate during an "at bat"?
For example: Carlos Beltran is a switch hitter... count is 1-1... he is currently batting right... but opts to bat left during that particular at bat. Can he?

The batter may switch boxes after every pitch, if he wishes. The only thing he cannot do, is; switch boxes while the pitcher is on the rubber ready to pitch.

6.06
A batter is out for illegal action when --
(b) He steps from one batter’s box to the other while the pitcher is in position ready to pitch;

[Jake Patterson]

The batter may switch boxes after every pitch, if he wishes. The only thing he cannot do, is; switch boxes while the pitcher is on the rubber ready to pitch.

6.06
A batter is out for illegal action when --
(b) He steps from one batter’s box to the other while the pitcher is in position ready to pitch;


I have often said that the next evolutionary level of the game is a bi-lateral pitching and hitting. Hitters we have, pitchers are developing.

[jbooth]

I feel this is a great idea so I am going to sticky it here for a while.
Jake

Here are my qualifications as an umpire;

Umpire for 26 years. Started with adult softball then went to youth baseball.

I work Varsity High School baseball and Little League. Mostly Little League (all divisions.)

I worked the 1996 JR League Western Regionals, 1999 SR League Western Regionals and 2 LL Division (State) tournaments and a SR League (State). Many sectionals at all divisions of LL and countless District tournament games.

Former Chief umpire for CA District 3, for 4 years, 1993 thru 1996.

Chief umpire for Novato Little League, 1991 and 1992, and 1997 thru 2002.

Started umpiring in 1980 in adult softball.
Have umpired in LL since 1985.

Have a large library of books on rules and umpiring and have been to 2 training camps taught by MLB pro umpires, and to the LL WR training school and rules clinics.

I have a website that provides answers to many questions and I have a book and a DVD that I sell.

http://baseball-rules.com

[Jake Patterson]

For all who are new.... I have Jim's (jbooth) book Baseball Rules in Plain English and have found it a wealth of information .... and easy to read.
Jake

[bluezebra]

Here are my qualifications as an umpire;

Umpire for 26 years. Started with adult softball then went to youth baseball.

I work Varsity High School baseball and Little League. Mostly Little League (all divisions.)

I worked the 1996 JR League Western Regionals, 1999 SR League Western Regionals and 2 LL Division (State) tournaments and a SR League (State). Many sectionals at all divisions of LL and countless District tournament games.

Former Chief umpire for CA District 3, for 4 years, 1993 thru 1996.

Chief umpire for Novato Little League, 1991 and 1992, and 1997 thru 2002.

Started umpiring in 1980 in adult softball.
Have umpired in LL since 1985.

Have a large library of books on rules and umpiring and have been to 2 training camps taught by MLB pro umpires, and to the LL WR training school and rules clinics.

I have a website that provides answers to many questions and I have a book and a DVD that I sell.

http://baseball-rules.com

Umpire for 26 years. Started with adult softball then went to youth baseball.

Jumped from the proverbial frying pan into the fire.

Bob

[bluezebra]

Hi,

Is there a rule in Little League baseball that states the pitcher shall not wear a white glove. just wondering.

Thanks

Steve:happy: :happy: :happy:

In ALL rules that I'm familiar with, the pitcher may not wear a white, gray or multi-colored glove.

Bob

[Padday]

If, for some reason, a player feels compelled to catch the ball in his cap or in any other item of his clothing for that matter (eg. his trousers :eek:), does it count as an out?

[bluezebra]

If, for some reason, a player feels compelled to catch the ball in his cap or in any other item of his clothing for that matter (eg. his trousers :eek:), does it count as an out?

No. This is considered detached equipment.

OBR 7.05 Each runner including the batter runner may, without liability to be put out, advance-

(b) Three bases, if a fielder deliberately touches a fair ball with his cap, mask or any part of his uniform detached from its proper place on his person. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril;

c) Three bases, if a fielder deliberately throws his glove at and touches a fair ball. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril.

Bob

[Williamsburg2599]

A ball bounces off the pitching rubber and goes into foul territory before first base, since it never passed first, is it foul?

[bluezebra]

A ball bounces off the pitching rubber and goes into foul territory before first base, since it never passed first, is it foul?

FOUL BALL. I've won enough cups of coffee on that to keep Brazil working nights.

Bob

[AutographCollector]

Here's one that I have always wondered Bob:
A batter swings at a ball hit in the dirt and actually connects for a hit. Is it a hit? Dead ball? What if the ball bounces off the player himself then he swings and connects? (And yes I am being serious , and not trying to be silly)

[bbjunkie]

Hi,

Is there a rule in Little League baseball that states the pitcher shall not wear a white glove. just wondering.

Thanks

Steve:happy: :happy: :happy:

2006 LL Rule 1.15 (a) The pitcher's glove shall be of one solid color other than white or gray, or if multi-colored, white and light gray shall not be included in the colors.
(b) No pitcher shall attach to the glove any foreign material of a color different from the glove. The pitcher may wear a batting glove on the non-pitching hand under the pitcher's glove provided the batting glove is not white, gray, or optic yellow.

[bbjunkie]

LL majors level - Situation - Runner coming from third. Catcher with ball in glove standing on the baseline about 4-5 ft in front of the plate. Runner makes no pretense of sliding or otherwise avoiding contact, throws a block that would make a blocking back proud. Catcher holds onto the ball, but gets seriously knocked on his butt. Runner is out, but how much discretion does the ump have in what happens to the runner?

[jbooth]

A ball bounces off the pitching rubber and goes into foul territory before first base, since it never passed first, is it foul?

Yes.

Rule 2.00 (Foul Ball) Comment: A batted ball not touched by a fielder, which hits the pitcher’s rubber and rebounds into foul territory, between home and first, or between home and third base is a foul ball.

[jbooth]

Here's one that I have always wondered Bob:
A batter swings at a ball hit in the dirt and actually connects for a hit. Is it a hit? Dead ball? What if the ball bounces off the player himself then he swings and connects? (And yes I am being serious , and not trying to be silly)

A pitched ball is a pitched ball, it doesn't matter whether it crosses the plate on the ground or in the air. All rules that refer to a pitch apply to a pitch that bounces before it crosses the plate. It can't be a "called" strike, but it can be hit, it can be a swinging strike, or if it hits the batter, the batter is awarded first base.

A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher.
Rule 2.00 (Pitch) Comment: All other deliveries of the ball by one player to another are thrown balls.

A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at by the batter.
Rule 2.00 (Ball) Comment: If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike zone it is a “ball.” If such a pitch touches the batter, he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of Rule 6.05(c) and 6.09(b). If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if he hit the ball in flight.

IN FLIGHT describes a batted, thrown, or pitched ball which has not yet touched the ground or some object other than a fielder.

6.08
The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when --
(b) He is touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit

[Jake Patterson]

Had a game the other night (School ball - paid umps). Steal to second. Base umpire out of position missed the tag and looks at the HPU. HPU points to him to make the call, he obviously didn't see it. HPU points again - nothing. HPU calls the runner out.

I call time and ask the ump, "Look blue, neither of you saw the play. Why call him out?" He says, "I saw the play and called him out." Knowing what he was doing I politely said, "Good answer." Told my players after the game I had a case to make up until the HPU said he saw the play...
Comments?

[bluezebra]

Had a game the other night (School ball - paid umps). Steal to second. Base umpire out of position missed the tag and looks at the HPU. HPU points to him to make the call, he obviously didn't see it. HPU points again - nothing. HPU calls the runner out.

I call time and ask the ump, "Look blue, neither of you saw the play. Why call him out?" He says, "I saw the play and called him out." Knowing what he was doing I politely said, "Good answer." Told my players after the game I had a case to make up until the HPU said he saw the play...
Comments?


When the PU pointed BACK to the BU he is indicating that he didn't see the play either. "I saw the play and called him out" was a lie. If he saw the play, he would have made the call when the BU gave it to him the first time.

Also, Jim Booth is absolutely RIGHT ON on a bounced pitch. It's a live ball, and can be anything EXCEPT a called strike.

Bob

[bluezebra]

LL majors level - Situation - Runner coming from third. Catcher with ball in glove standing on the baseline about 4-5 ft in front of the plate. Runner makes no pretense of sliding or otherwise avoiding contact, throws a block that would make a blocking back proud. Catcher holds onto the ball, but gets seriously knocked on his butt. Runner is out, but how much discretion does the ump have in what happens to the runner?

By your description, this was MALICIOUS CONTACT. I'd bang the runner even if the catcher dropped the ball. And then I'd eject the runner.

Bob

[captlid]

By your description, this was MALICIOUS CONTACT. I'd bang the runner even if the catcher dropped the ball. And then I'd eject the runner.


Under what rulebook is the runner out if the catcher drops the ball?

[bluezebra]

Under what rulebook is the runner out if the catcher drops the ball?

All youth groups (that I'm aware of), FED (high school), NCAA (college) have a malicious contact, or collision, rule. The runner is NOT out in OBR..In professional baseball only.

Bob

[bbjunkie]

All youth groups (that I'm aware of), FED (high school), NCAA (college) have a malicious contact, or collision, rule. The runner is NOT out in OBR..In professional baseball only.

Bob

Thanks blue. In the instance the ump called the kid out, but then said he didn't want to influence the outcome of the game and left him in the game. I was just about apoplectic. If there wasn't a possibility of influencing the outcome of a game, why have the rule? The kid was one of about 3 or 4 stud pitchers in the league.

[dw8man]

On a steal home from third, the pitcher steps off the rubber and throws home. Can the batter bunt the ball to protect the runner?

[PopTop]

Sorry I missed the first few days of this thread.

I haven't nearly the experience of either Bob or Jim. About seven total years now, with a 25-year gap between my umpiring time. I've only worked Senior League (generally 7th and 8th graders) and now Little League here in the bee-yooooo-tiful Texas Hill Country. In fact, our fields are just a few hundred yards on the downstream side of the dam at Canyon Lake for those who might be familiar with the area. I have to watch myself at times that I don't get lost sightseeing while the game's in progress :blush:

One question I have for the two experienced umps in this thread has to do with the 'high tag.' This, in my opinion, is the toughest call I have to make on the field. There is no head-first sliding in Little League (except going back to the bag), so what happens for the most part is a kid slides into a bag and the throw pulls the fielder up the line a bit. On the slide plays my eyes are generally focused on the bag and the runner's feet, so it's difficult (for me) to watch the foot hitting the bag and see the tag up on the thigh or higher.

Is there a 'trick' to splitting my vision on this type of call or positioning that might help to see the play better?

[dw8man]

On a steal home from third, the pitcher steps off the rubber and throws home. Can the batter bunt the ball to protect the runner?

Never mind, I think I found my own answer.

It looks like rule 6.06c would be in effect.

[jbooth]

Never mind, I think I found my own answer.

It looks like rule 6.06c would be in effect.


That's correct. When the pitcher legally steps off the rubber he is no longer the pitcher, and it is a now a "throw" and not a "pitch." The batter cannot interfere with a throw.

[jbooth]

Under what rulebook is the runner out if the catcher drops the ball?

In Little League it is rule 7.08a(3). The runner is out if he does not slide, or attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball, waiting to make a tag.

[bluezebra]

On a steal home from third, the pitcher steps off the rubber and throws home. Can the batter bunt the ball to protect the runner?


Yes. But that's interference by the batter. With less than two outs, the runner is out, and all other runners return to their base at the time of the pitch. With two outs, the batter is out.

Bob

[bluezebra]

Sorry I missed the first few days of this thread.

I haven't nearly the experience of either Bob or Jim. About seven total years now, with a 25-year gap between my umpiring time. I've only worked Senior League (generally 7th and 8th graders) and now Little League here in the bee-yooooo-tiful Texas Hill Country. In fact, our fields are just a few hundred yards on the downstream side of the dam at Canyon Lake for those who might be familiar with the area. I have to watch myself at times that I don't get lost sightseeing while the game's in progress :blush:

One question I have for the two experienced umps in this thread has to do with the 'high tag.' This, in my opinion, is the toughest call I have to make on the field. There is no head-first sliding in Little League (except going back to the bag), so what happens for the most part is a kid slides into a bag and the throw pulls the fielder up the line a bit. On the slide plays my eyes are generally focused on the bag and the runner's feet, so it's difficult (for me) to watch the foot hitting the bag and see the tag up on the thigh or higher.

Is there a 'trick' to splitting my vision on this type of call or positioning that might help to see the play better?

Be sure to position yourself far enough from the play to get the entire picture, yet close enough to be sure of the tag.

I used to love when a runner or manager/coach would holler, "High tag, blue". No matter where the runner was. I was BU for a men's league game years ago, and called a runner out at 2B when the tag was on his shoulder.

"High tag, blue". "Yes it was. But he's still six feet from the base". I think that "High tag, blue", is in the first chapter of the Coach's Manual.

Bob

[bluezebra]

Thanks blue. In the instance the ump called the kid out, but then said he didn't want to influence the outcome of the game and left him in the game. I was just about apoplectic. If there wasn't a possibility of influencing the outcome of a game, why have the rule? The kid was one of about 3 or 4 stud pitchers in the league.

HORRIBLE. The umpire doesn't influence the outcome of the game, the player, coach or manager does, by their action(s).

That ump is a wuss.

Bob

[mike28nc]

I have one for you all.

Is this a balk?

Pitch is trying to pick off runner at 2nd base. His back foot is touching the rubber. His lead foot does the up and steps to 2nd but does not throw the ball. I was always told if your touching the rubber you have to throw except to 3rd if your a right handed pitcher.

Mike

[PopTop]

I think that "High tag, blue", is in the first chapter of the Coach's Manual.:laugh Thanks for the advise. When working the field, I rarely come more than a few feet into the dirt. Maybe I should stay even another step back.

Bob or Jim, in your bazillion years of experience, what's the toughest call you've found to make?

[Jake Patterson]

Hitter running to first, 1B pulled off the bag with a bad throw, swipes a tag. 1BU blocked from view, but calls the runner out.

Question: Can the HPU over rule him?

[jbooth]

I have one for you all.

Is this a balk?

Pitch is trying to pick off runner at 2nd base. His back foot is touching the rubber. His lead foot does the up and steps to 2nd but does not throw the ball. I was always told if your touching the rubber you have to throw except to 3rd if your a right handed pitcher.

Mike

No, you may fake to 2nd or third, from the rubber. You just cannot fake to FIRST base while touching the rubber.

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
(b) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw;
A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps.

[Braves Fan 24]

A stretch move prior to the set is optional.

This is from your wesbite, so if I understand correctly, I could get on the mound set and then just pitch? If that's true can I switch to doing that after I've gone off the stretch in previous pitches, say if I have a kid 0-2 and really want to mess with his timing so i just get on the mound set and deliever?

[jbooth]

A stretch move prior to the set is optional.

This is from your wesbite, so if I understand correctly, I could get on the mound set and then just pitch? If that's true can I switch to doing that after I've gone off the stretch in previous pitches, say if I have a kid 0-2 and really want to mess with his timing so i just get on the mound set and deliever?

You don't have to do any kind of elaborate "stretch" move prior to bringing your hands together, but you must step on the rubber with your hands at your sides, and then bring them together before you throw a pitch.

Here is the rule;

8.01(b) The Set Position.
Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop.
From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.

Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter. After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption.
Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.01(b) without interruption and in one continuous motion.
The pitcher, following his stretch, must (a) hold the ball in both hands in front of his body and (b) come to a complete stop.

[jbooth]

Hitter running to first, 1B pulled off the bag with a bad throw, swipes a tag. 1BU blocked from view, but calls the runner out.

Question: Can the HPU over rule him?

Technically, NO. Once the base ump makes the call, it is supposed to stand. If the base ump cannot see the play, he should ask for help before he makes a decision, but the plate ump cannot make the call, or override the call after it is made, unless the base ump asks for help, or decides to let him make the call.

[bluezebra]

Technically, NO. Once the base ump makes the call, it is supposed to stand. If the base ump cannot see the play, he should ask for help before he makes a decision, but the plate ump cannot make the call, or override the call after it is made, unless the base ump asks for help, or decides to let him make the call.


To add: If the BU makes the call, and the coach requests (in a sportsmanlike manner) him to ask the PU for help, he should do so out of hearing of players, coaches and spectators. The PU may tell what he saw, but it's still the BU's call, either to keep or change.

Remember, NO umpire may overrule another.

Bob

[bluezebra]

:laugh Thanks for the advise. When working the field, I rarely come more than a few feet into the dirt. Maybe I should stay even another step back.

Bob or Jim, in your bazillion years of experience, what's the toughest call you've found to make?


Calling an 8-year-old out on strikes.

Bob

[dw8man]

In our game today, runners were on 2nd and 3rd. The batter hit a fly ball to right field. The field ump was standing to the third base side of the mound (I think). Which ump watches the ball (home or field) and which one watches the runners?

[Braves Fan 24]

I would imagine they would both have to watch the ball so they can determine where they need to be in position on the throw and also keep eyes on the runner to be sure of a tag.

[jbooth]

In our game today, runners were on 2nd and 3rd. The batter hit a fly ball to right field. The field ump was standing to the third base side of the mound (I think). Which ump watches the ball (home or field) and which one watches the runners?

The base ump has the catch/no catch on balls between the left and right fielder. The plate ump has the area from the foul line to the left and right fielder. The base ump has the tag up of R2 and the plate ump has the tag up of R3.

[dw8man]

That makes sense. Out team taged 3rd because they thought the runner left early and I was surprised to see the plate ump signal safe. It then made sense that the base ump couldn't have seen 3rd, but I couldn't figure out who had 2nd and the ball. Thanks!

[Jake Patterson]

Man on first RH pitcher in a wind-up vs stretch. Steps off with left foot vs right to throw to first. Balk??

[dw8man]

On a fly ball, when can the runners leave the base if the ball hit the fielders mit and bounce back into the air before being caught? The rules state that the runners must retag the base after a legal catch but doesn't say what that is, that I can find.

[STM4UA]

On a fly ball, when can the runners leave the base if the ball hit the fielders mit and bounce back into the air before being caught? The rules state that the runners must retag the base after a legal catch but doesn't say what that is, that I can find.

I am not an umpire but know this one. Runner can leave as soon as the ball touches the fielder's glove.

[jbooth]

Man on first RH pitcher in a wind-up vs stretch. Steps off with left foot vs right to throw to first. Balk??

It's a balk if he steps backward, then throws. If he steps directly toward first before doing ANYTHING else, it is a step and throw to make a pick off.

Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his “free” foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).
In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.


It's a balk because it violates 8.05a

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
(a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;


The step back with the free foot is considered the start of the delivery, a step toward the base is OK.

8.05 It is a balk when -
(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.
A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps.

[jbooth]

On a fly ball, when can the runners leave the base if the ball hit the fielders glove and bounce back into the air before being caught? The rules state that the runners must retag the base after a legal catch but doesn't say what that is, that I can find.

7.10
Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when --
(a) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;
Rule 7.10(a) Comment: “Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base.

Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch.

[Jake Patterson]

It's a balk if he steps backward, then throws.
Thanks, Jim.

[GFK]

It's a balk if he steps backward, then throws. If he steps directly toward first before doing ANYTHING else, it is a step and throw to make a pick off.

Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his “free” foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).
In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.


It's a balk because it violates 8.05a

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
(a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;


The step back with the free foot is considered the start of the delivery, a step toward the base is OK.

8.05 It is a balk when -
(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.
A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps.

Thanks Jim! I am printing this one out and taking it to the game today. The pitcher we are facing today pitches entirely from the windup. It should be a good day for base stealing:)

[jbooth]

Thanks Jim! I am printing this one out and taking it to the game today. The pitcher we are facing today pitches entirely from the windup. It should be a good day for base stealing:)

Something everyone needs to be aware of, is;
the answers I give are from the "Official Rules of Baseball."

High School Federation rules are very different. The pitching rules for FED are VERY different from pro rules.

Little League rules are 98% the same as the Official Rules and Babe Ruth League is about 99% the same. High School rules have a LOT of differences from the "Official Rules", not only regarding pitching, but in many other areas also. You need to be sure of which set of rules your league plays with.

[Williamsburg2599]

I am not an umpire but know this one. Runner can leave as soon as the ball touches the fielder's glove.

What if it hits Player A's glove and goes into Player B's glove? Does the same rule apply?

[jbooth]

What if it hits Player A's glove and goes into Player B's glove? Does the same rule apply?

I assume you didn't see this in a post above;

Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

The ball could bounce off of all 9 players before it is FINALLY held for a legal catch, but the runner may leave the instant that it touches the FIRST fielder.

[bluezebra]

On a fly ball, when can the runners leave the base if the ball hit the fielders mit and bounce back into the air before being caught? The rules state that the runners must retag the base after a legal catch but doesn't say what that is, that I can find.

As soon as the ball is TOUCHED, runners may leave their bases without jeopardy.

Bob

[natsnsoxfan]

Im going to assume that most of the people in here saw the first of the Red Sox Yankees series this weekend and i have a question about a play during the game. On the A-Rod homer where Coco jumped and ended up in bullpen, without catching the ball, had he caught that ball and still landed in the bullpen would A-Rod have been ruled out or would it still be a homer?

[jbooth]

Im going to assume that most of the people in here saw the first of the Red Sox Yankees series this weekend and i have a question about a play during the game. On the A-Rod homer where Coco jumped and ended up in bullpen, without catching the ball, had he caught that ball and still landed in the bullpen would A-Rod have been ruled out or would it still be a homer?

If he had caught it and then held on to it after falling over the fence, it would have been an out, and any runners who were on base would be awarded one base.

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession.
A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch.

6.05
A batter is out when --
(a) His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder;

7.04
Each runner, other than the batter, may without liability to be put out, advance one base when --
(c) A fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field;
Rule 7.04(c) Comment: If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area while in possession of the ball after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and each runner shall advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the time the fielder fell into, or in, such out-of-play area.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Not sure if either of you have ever had to call a game with a good knuckle-baller throwing, but I was just wondering what adjustments (if any) you make if it's a knuckler pitching.

One other thing, I was wondering whether or not you would prefer the catcher to tell you what the pitcher is throwing that day (kind of a little scouting report before the game, during warm-ups perhaps) so that he doesn't get surprised if the guy has a great curve, etc... I feel sometimes like it's appropriate, and other times like it's unethical. Thoughts?

[Ursa Major]

I don't think alerting an umpire to a particular pitch is in any way "unethical", but it's a little risky because it may suggest to the umpire that you don't think he or she is capable of adjusting to a pitch with a lot of movement on it.

In our youth league, we get teenage umpires who are a little "lazy" about following a pitch all the way through the strike zone. So, if you have a pitcher with a really slow changeup that will drop some, your catcher may need to alert the umpire to not give up on high pitches, as they may drop into the zone.

[mike28nc]

I have a good one for you. Last week we ran across a catcher that would stand in the base path making the runner run around the catcher. He doesnt have the ball but is wanting the player to slide into him so he can get the ball from the cut off and tag out the runner.

Now we have a no contact rule for the catcher. This has been up in arms in the past seasons. Catchers blocking the path from 3rd to home with out the ball. Even one kid would get on his knees on the line wanting the slide in to home and then catch the ball for the out.

Last weekend our player ran around the catcher and was safe. When I went out to get the bat, I just asked the Ump about blocking of the line. The ump told us he is required to get out of the way. If he doest then bump into him. Catcher was standing there and just smiled. Now I was some what shocked in the response from the Ump. I went back and let the team know that they go for the plate. If he has no ball then bump him. three innings later, as luck would have it. My son was on 2nd base. Gaper to right center and he was waved home. Catcher was almost 4' up the line. Bam! He bumped him and he went flying. Now in the past it was call for ejection of that game and next. Nothing happen.

question. Shouldn't the Ump warn the other team Coaches?

Mike

[Jake Patterson]

I have a good one for you. Last week we ran across a catcher that would stand in the base path making the runner run around the catcher. He doesnt have the ball but is wanting the player to slide into him so he can get the ball from the cut off and tag out the runner.

Now we have a no contact rule for the catcher. This has been up in arms in the past seasons. Catchers blocking the path from 3rd to home with out the ball. Even one kid would get on his knees on the line wanting the slide in to home and then catch the ball for the out.

Last weekend our player ran around the catcher and was safe. When I went out to get the bat, I just asked the Ump about blocking of the line. The ump told us he is required to get out of the way. If he doest then bump into him. Catcher was standing there and just smiled. Now I was some what shocked in the response from the Ump. I went back and let the team know that they go for the plate. If he has no ball then bump him. three innings later, as luck would have it. My son was on 2nd base. Gaper to right center and he was waved home. Catcher was almost 4' up the line. Bam! He bumped him and he went flying. Now in the past it was call for ejection of that game and next. Nothing happen.

question. Shouldn't the Ump warn the other team Coaches?

Mike

Mike, the ump should have taken control of the game and not allowed it to happen. It created a dangerous situation for no reason and the ump is in charge of safety.

[VTSoxFan]

No. This is considered detached equipment.

OBR 7.05 Each runner including the batter runner may, without liability to be put out, advance-

(b) Three bases, if a fielder deliberately touches a fair ball with his cap, mask or any part of his uniform detached from its proper place on his person. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril;

c) Three bases, if a fielder deliberately throws his glove at and touches a fair ball. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril.

Bob

Great thread -- very interesting. Though to me, the balk rules are still clear as mud. :crazy

Re: the above quoted rule: A few years ago I saw a game where a pitchier fielded a sharply-hit grounder, and couldn't get the ball out of his glove, so he took off his glove and threw it, with the ball inside, to first base, and the runner was called out. Does this situation fall under the "detatched equipment" rule as well? Should the runner have been safe?

[jbooth]

Great thread -- very interesting. Though to me, the balk rules are still clear as mud. :crazy

Re: the above quoted rule: A few years ago I saw a game where a pitchier fielded a sharply-hit grounder, and couldn't get the ball out of his glove, so he took off his glove and threw it, with the ball inside, to first base, and the runner was called out. Does this situation fall under the "detatched equipment" rule as well? Should the runner have been safe?

No, he should not have been safe.

You can't catch the ball with detached equipment. He caught it with the glove attached, and then threw the ball and glove together. The ball/glove unit in-flight, is considered to be just the ball, and if that unit is caught with attached equipment, it is legal.

[jbooth]

I have a good one for you. Last week we ran across a catcher that would stand in the base path making the runner run around the catcher. He doesnt have the ball but is wanting the player to slide into him so he can get the ball from the cut off and tag out the runner.

Now we have a no contact rule for the catcher. This has been up in arms in the past seasons. Catchers blocking the path from 3rd to home with out the ball. Even one kid would get on his knees on the line wanting the slide in to home and then catch the ball for the out.

Last weekend our player ran around the catcher and was safe. When I went out to get the bat, I just asked the Ump about blocking of the line. The ump told us he is required to get out of the way. If he doest then bump into him. Catcher was standing there and just smiled. Now I was some what shocked in the response from the Ump. I went back and let the team know that they go for the plate. If he has no ball then bump him. three innings later, as luck would have it. My son was on 2nd base. Gaper to right center and he was waved home. Catcher was almost 4' up the line. Bam! He bumped him and he went flying. Now in the past it was call for ejection of that game and next. Nothing happen.

question. Shouldn't the Ump warn the other team Coaches?

Mike

This ump is clueless. Wrong as can be. In NO level of play (including MLB), is a fielder allowed to stand in the path without the ball, and impede the runner's progress. ie. induce him to slide or crash into him.

The fielder MUST allow a clear path to the base, UNTIL he actually has the ball, OR, in the umpire's judgment, NEEDS to move into the path in order to glove the ball. If the fielder is standing in the path before he needs to move there, and the runner collides with him BEFORE the ball reaches the catcher, it is OBSTRUCTION by the catcher.

MLB catchers only block off half of the plate, and stand inside the line, until the ball is in-flight and near them. THEN they block the plate. The umpire still must judge whether the catcher needed to block the path as a necessary act, in his attempt to catch the ball.

Here's the rule;

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.

Rule 2.00 (Obstruction) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.” It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball.

7.06
When obstruction occurs, the umpire shall call or signal "Obstruction."
If a play is being made on the obstructed runner, or if the batterrunner is obstructed before he touches first base, the ball is dead and all runners shall advance, without liability to be put out, to the bases they would have reached, in the umpire’s judgment, if there had been no obstruction. The obstructed runner shall be awarded at least one base beyond the base he had last legally touched before the obstruction

[dw8man]

7.06
When obstruction occurs, the umpire shall call or signal "Obstruction."
If a play is being made on the obstructed runner, or if the batterrunner is obstructed before he touches first base, the ball is dead and all runners shall advance, without liability to be put out, to the bases they would have reached, in the umpire’s judgment, if there had been no obstruction. The obstructed runner shall be awarded at least one base beyond the base he had last legally touched before the obstruction
[/I]

So, I read that to say that an ump can award more then one base to the runners? For example, runner on first. Batter hits a shot to the gap on a really big field. The batter is obstructed by, let's say, a pitcher who isn't happy... Anyway, can the ump allow the runner to advance home if he felt the runner would have made it?

[jbooth]

So, I read that to say that an ump can award more then one base to the runners? For example, runner on first. Batter hits a shot to the gap on a really big field. The batter is obstructed by, let's say, a pitcher who isn't happy... Anyway, can the ump allow the runner to advance home if he felt the runner would have made it?

Sort of.

There are two rules that cover obstruction. 7.06a and 7.06b. One applies when obstruction occurs while a play is being made on the obstructed runner, and the other applies when no play is being made on the runner at the time he is obstructed. A "play" for purposes of the rule is when the ball has been thrown, and is in-flight toward the base to which the runner is heading, or when a runner is in a run down.

Here are the rules. Note the differences between "a" and "b."

7.06
When obstruction occurs, the umpire shall call or signal "Obstruction."
If a play is being made on the obstructed runner, or if the batter-runner is obstructed before he touches first base, the ball is dead and all runners shall advance, without liability to be put out, to the bases they would have reached, in the umpire’s judgment, if there had been no obstruction. The obstructed runner shall be awarded at least one base beyond the base he had last legally touched before the obstruction. Any preceding runners, forced to advance by the award of bases as the penalty for obstruction, shall advance without liability to be put out.
Rule 7.06(a) Comment: When a play is being made on an obstructed runner, the umpire shall signal obstruction in the same manner that he calls “Time,” with both hands overhead. The ball is immediately dead when this signal is given;

(b) If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible. The umpire shall then call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.
Rule 7.06(b) Comment: Under 7.06(b) when the ball is not dead on obstruction and an obstructed runner advances beyond the base which, in the umpire’s judgment, he would have been awarded because of being obstructed, he does so at his own peril and may be tagged out. This is a judgment call.
NOTE: The catcher, without the ball in his possession, has no right to block the pathway of the runner attempting to score. The base line belongs to the runner and the catcher should be there only when he is fielding a ball or when he already has the ball in his hand.


Examples;

(1)Pitcher attempts a pick-off to first and the runner is obstructed while returning to first.

Ruling; this is a "play" 7.06a. Time is called immediately and the runner is awarded second. "at least one base beyond the base he had last legally touched before the obstruction."

(2)Ball is in the outfield gap when a runner is obstructed.

Ruling; this is a "no play" 7.06b. When the play is over, then the umpire calls time and may, or may not, impose a penalty. He will allow the play to stand if he judges that the obstruction didn't change the play, or he can put the runner at the base to which he believes he would have reached, if he had not been obstructed. If the obstruction is minor and the runner gets thrown out by a mile, the out could stand. If the obstruction is significant and the runner gets put out on a close play, he may nullify the out and award the base. The runner could get obstructed rounding first and then get thrown out at third. The ump judges whether the obstruction caused him to be out or not.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

So as long as the catcher has the ball, he is allowed to plant himself on the line, or on the plate for that matter?

If so, how far up the line is he allowed to go? I ask this because one time last year I was catching, and I caught the ball and planted myself about 4 feet up the line (on my knees). The runner dropped his shoulder into me, and sent me flying. The ump called him out (because I held onto the ball), but didn't throw him out because he said that I was too far up the line.

Is this true? I have a hard time believing it.

[jbooth]

So as long as the catcher has the ball, he is allowed to plant himself on the line, or on the plate for that matter?

If so, how far up the line is he allowed to go? I ask this because one time last year I was catching, and I caught the ball and planted myself about 4 feet up the line (on my knees). The runner dropped his shoulder into me, and sent me flying. The ump called him out (because I held onto the ball), but didn't throw him out because he said that I was too far up the line.

Is this true? I have a hard time believing it.

Don't over-complicate this rule. If you HAVE the ball in your possession, you can be wherever you want to be. If you do NOT have the ball, AND are not trying to catch it, you need to stay the heck out of the runner's path (not just the baseline, but the PATH that he is running on.)

You need to position yourself OUT of the path, and then if you NEED to move into the path, in order to glove the ball, you may do so, and it doesn't matter where the intentional collison occurs.

Regarding, the ump not throwing the runner out; where you were, when you got slammed, is not relevant. Maliciously crashing into you, is unsportsmanlike and deserves an ejection. Also, if you had the ball and were waiting to tag him, and he knew he was going to be out, in all rules except professional, he needs to slide, OR attempt to avoid a collision. If he does not, he is out even if he knocks the ball out.

If he attempts to avoid you, but still collides and you drop the ball, then he is NOT out and NOT ejected. He is out when the umpire judges that no attempt was made to avoid the collision. He is ejected, if the umpire judges that he INTENDED to crash into you, and did so.

[Williamsburg2599]

If a player catches the ball and falls over the wall, it is an out, right? (like if Coco had caught the A-rod HR a few days ago) He also has to come back into play before throwing the ball, right?

[bluezebra]

I have a good one for you. Last week we ran across a catcher that would stand in the base path making the runner run around the catcher. He doesnt have the ball but is wanting the player to slide into him so he can get the ball from the cut off and tag out the runner.

Now we have a no contact rule for the catcher. This has been up in arms in the past seasons. Catchers blocking the path from 3rd to home with out the ball. Even one kid would get on his knees on the line wanting the slide in to home and then catch the ball for the out.

Last weekend our player ran around the catcher and was safe. When I went out to get the bat, I just asked the Ump about blocking of the line. The ump told us he is required to get out of the way. If he doest then bump into him. Catcher was standing there and just smiled. Now I was some what shocked in the response from the Ump. I went back and let the team know that they go for the plate. If he has no ball then bump him. three innings later, as luck would have it. My son was on 2nd base. Gaper to right center and he was waved home. Catcher was almost 4' up the line. Bam! He bumped him and he went flying. Now in the past it was call for ejection of that game and next. Nothing happen.

question. Shouldn't the Ump warn the other team Coaches?

Mike

In situations like this, I warned the catcher that this would be called obstruction. I also warned the coach. I then went to the opponents bench, and told the players and the coaches that I would call obstruction, and award the runner(s) home if tagged out. I also warned them that they wewre required to slide or avoid the catcher. If the "plowe" him, I would call them out, and eject them.

Bob

[jbooth]

If a player catches the ball and falls over the wall, it is an out, right? (like if Coco had caught the A-rod HR a few days ago) He also has to come back into play before throwing the ball, right?

This question was already answered in post #61. It's an out and the ball is dead and all runners advance one base.

[Ursa Major]

Richmond Hill Phoenix said: I ask this because one time last year I was catching, and I caught the ball and planted myself about 4 feet up the line (on my knees). The runner dropped his shoulder into me, and sent me flying. The ump called him out (because I held onto the ball), but didn't throw him out because he said that I was too far up the line. RHP, the ump's thinking may have been that, because you were so far up the line, the player didn't have an option of sliding because he couldn't reach the base that way. Still, that doesn't give him the option of putting his shoulder into you either - his only choice was to either slow down and accept the tag (like many big leaguers now do) or to try to juke you and slide around you while staying close to the baseline.

As far as fielders intentionally standing in the baseline, I'd give a warning and then toss the catcher the next time it happened, depending on the age level (some 10 year olds are clueless about this). It's particularly the case with catchers, as they're wearing armor and more likely to cause an injury.

It's a safety issue, and any kid who wants to be a smarta$$ about safety gets a seat on the bench, in my opinion.

[jbooth]

As far as fielders intentionally standing in the baseline, I'd give a warning and then toss the catcher the next time it happened, depending on the age level (some 10 year olds are clueless about this). It's particularly the case with catchers, as they're wearing armor and more likely to cause an injury.


Just for clarity's sake; your above statement is OK, if they are intentionally standing in the line without possession of the ball, and the ball is not coming toward them. If you have possession of the ball, you may intentionally stand in the path and block the runner's path toward the base. If that is the case, then, in youth ball, the runner must slide, OR attempt to get around the fielder. The reason for the "OR" is for situations where the catcher is too far up the line for a slide to be used. In that case the runner must attempt to avoid the fielder. In NO circumstances may the runner intentionally crash into the fielder, who has the ball, waiting to make a tag. Even in MLB play, the runner may not commit an act that could be judged as interference. He may run through the fielder and a collision will occur, but the runner may not throw elbows to the face, or swat at the glove, etc. to knock the ball loose. Violent collisions may occur in PRO play, as long as the collision is simply a result of the runner trying to run straight through the fielder, to the base.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

I guess a logical next question is this: How far off the baseline is too far? I've always heard coaches scream "He's off the line!" but how wide is the path?

[jbooth]

I guess a logical next question is this: How far off the baseline is too far? I've always heard coaches scream "He's off the line!" but how wide is the path?

MLB FINALLY reworded rule 7.08a to make it more clear;

7.08
Any runner is out when --
(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely;

It is NOT the line from one base to another. He can deviate 3 feet to either side of the line between where he is, and the base he is heading toward. The old wording of the rule was not as clear.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Alright, cool. I never really knew that actual rule to it.

For this rule, I expect there will be quite a large grey area. Tough to make a call on an exact distance from an invisible line, get my drift?

[Charger567]

I got one:

If a batter hits an easy double play ball with a runner on first, is the batter allowed to quickly run straight out of the base path, getting himself out while eliminating the force play at second?

[jbooth]

Alright, cool. I never really knew that actual rule to it.

For this rule, I expect there will be quite a large grey area. Tough to make a call on an exact distance from an invisible line, get my drift?

It can be a tough call at times. For instance; the fielder is about two feet to the left of the runner's path, and then when he attempts a tag, the runner steps 3 feet to the right. The distance between them is 5 feet, but the runner legally avoided the tag.

The call is easy when the fielder is exactly on the runner's path and when he steps and reaches to tag the runner he misses. A step and a reach is usually at least three feet, so if he is on the path and misses with a step and reach, the runner has probably gone more than 3 feet. Call the out.

[jbooth]

I got one:

If a batter hits an easy double play ball with a runner on first, is the batter allowed to quickly run straight out of the base path, getting himself out while eliminating the force play at second?

Not sure what you are describing. The runner is only out when he tries to avoid a tag attempt and goes more than 3 feet off of his path. He can run anywhere he wishes when nobody is trying to tag him.

[Utility07]

Hence the skunk in right field.

[jbooth]

Hence the skunk in right field.

On that play, if the runner does not run directly toward SOME base, when the fielder with the ball, starts to run toward him, he is out. Even if the fielder isn't close enough to touch the runner, the fact that he is chasing him, requires the runner to stay on a path toward a base. He can run where he wishes when NO play whatsoever, is being made on him. But, a fielder with the ball, chasing him, is a play, and requires the runner to run toward a base, and stay within 3 feet of either side of the line toward that base.

[Utility07]

But he doesnt have to be in the 3 foot range, just running toward it the instant a play is being made on him. As long as no play is being made, he can stand anywhere pretty much.

[Jake Patterson]

I had my starting catcher break his glove thumb. He will be in a cast for several weeks and then have a smaller cast put on.

He asked if he could play with a cast. Does NFHS rules allow a player to play with a cast?? My son did it, but it was years ago.

[jbooth]

But he doesnt have to be in the 3 foot range, just running toward it the instant a play is being made on him. As long as no play is being made, he can stand anywhere pretty much.


Yeah, a runner could stand out next to an outfielder and chat with him while a pitch is thrown, but as soon as the catcher catches the pitch, and then throws to an infielder, and that infielder turns and takes one step toward the runner in the outfield, the ump should call that runner out. Mickey Mouse, Shenanigans, not within the spirit and intent of the rules is not allowed. 9.01c.

[Utility07]

Ive seen it discussed in an umpiring forum before, and they came to the concensus that it could not be filed under the travesty rule even though its cheap, because in Fed rules there is no rule about being near the baseline.

[bluezebra]

I had my starting catcher break his glove thumb. He will be in a cast for several weeks and then have a smaller cast put on.

He asked if he could play with a cast. Does NFHS rules allow a player to play with a cast?? My son did it, but it was years ago.

Your question is out of context of this thread.

FED 1.5.5..All casts, splints and braces must be padded with at least 1/2" of closed-cell, slow-recovery rubber or other material of the same minimum thickness and having similar physical properties. No protective equipment shall have exposed metal or any other hard material.

By the way, if you're coaching a HS team, why don't you have a rule book?

Bob

[Jake Patterson]

Your question is out of context of this thread.
Ask the umpire?

FED 1.5.5..All casts, splints and braces must be padded with at least 1/2" of closed-cell, slow-recovery rubber or other material of the same minimum thickness and having similar physical properties. No protective equipment shall have exposed metal or any other hard material.
Thanks

[bluedoguk]

I coach a machine pitch team for 7 and 8 year olds. Today I saw a play I've never seen before. We had a batter with two strikes at the plate. The next pitch was foul tipped and hit the catcher and lodged in his chest protector. This was ruled a legal catch and the batter called out. Is this the correct call?

[jbooth]

I coach a machine pitch team for 7 and 8 year olds. Today I saw a play I've never seen before. We had a batter with two strikes at the plate. The next pitch was foul tipped and hit the catcher and lodged in his chest protector. This was ruled a legal catch and the batter called out. Is this the correct call?

This question should be in the "Ask the umpire" thread.

But, the answer is; NO, it was not a legal catch. It should have been ruled a foul ball.

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand.

A LEGAL CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession.

[Thor]

I had my starting catcher break his glove thumb. He will be in a cast for several weeks and then have a smaller cast put on.

He asked if he could play with a cast. Does NFHS rules allow a player to play with a cast?? My son did it, but it was years ago.

For shame Mr. Patterson. A broken thumb on a catcher requires written clearance from a medical professional prior to playing for both professional and personal liability reasons.

[Jake Patterson]

For shame Mr. Patterson. A broken thumb on a catcher requires written clearance from a medical professional prior to playing for both professional and personal liability reasons.

Understood... I found the ruling in the NFHS rule book. Some sports you are not allowed to play with a cast, regardless of the doctor's opinion.

[Jake Patterson]

Bob,
In your nearly 50 years in the game - What would you say is the biggest change you have seen in youth baseball?
Jake

[bluezebra]

Bob,
In your nearly 50 years in the game - What would you say is the biggest change you have seen in youth baseball?
Jake

More and more emphasis by the parents on winning, rather than teaching the game, and having fun. Even in T-Ball. Teen umpires attacked, coaches/managers paying a child to "bean" a player, ad nauseum. There were "creeps" in youth baseball when I started in 1956, but they were few and far between. The LL my grandsons played in, changed the rules at the end of one season, so a (Minor B) team, managed by a BOD member, would be declared champs. What a message. My grandsons got so fed up, they quit LL. And the league lost my volunteering.

Bob

[PopTop]

Amen on that, Bob. Can't believe how much winning is stressed in Little League these days. It was a big deal in the early 60s when I was playing LL ball, but mostly because we got uniforms. We all wanted to win, no doubt, but there was never the pressure to win that I see now. For every organized LL game we played back then, we played 25 times that many pick up games without any adults, without any uniforms, without bases, often without enough for two teams. That's one of the differences I see now, that there is no such thing as a pick up game of baseball any longer.

[littlecugi]

This past weekend end the weirdest thing happened in the Indians Orioles game, im sure you all saw it, when the indians lost the lead and got it back all in the same half of their inning. I thought that once the play was over and the next pitch had been thrown i didnt think it could be overturrned. I was just wondering if that was the right thing for the UMPs to call??

Thanks

[tonypug]

This past weekend end the weirdest thing happened in the Indians Orioles game, im sure you all saw it, when the indians lost the lead and got it back all in the same half of their inning. I thought that once the play was over and the next pitch had been thrown i didnt think it could be overturrned. I was just wondering if that was the right thing for the UMPs to call??

Thanks

If a batter bats out of order, or a runner misses a base, the other team has until the next pitch to make an appeal. That doesn't pertain to a mistake by an umpire. In this case the umpire could and did change his call. This is backed up by the official rules of baseball. The changed call was the proper call.

[littlecugi]

If a batter bats out of order, or a runner misses a base, the other team has until the next pitch to make an appeal. That doesn't pertain to a mistake by an umpire. In this case the umpire could and did change his call. This is backed up by the official rules of baseball. The changed call was the proper call.


Thanks for that i would have never have known that

[tonypug]

Thanks for that i would have never have known that

Your welcome. On that particular play, the runner on third properly tagged up and scored, before the out was made at first. There is no force in play and the rune should have been counted. Thanfully the call was later reversed, by the umpire.

[littlecugi]

Your welcome. On that particular play, the runner on third properly tagged up and scored, before the out was made at first. There is no force in play and the rune should have been counted. Thanfully the call was later reversed, by the umpire.

ya no kidding it would have been a real bummer if they would have lost because of that play but it didnt happen owell

[Dodgerfan1]

A play I saw some time ago once got me to thinking what the ruling would have been had the situation been a tad different. Let's use the Dodgers and Giants as the hypothetical teams, for my purposes.

With one out and Pedro Feliz on third base (no other runners on base), Randy Winn sends a high pop-up toward third base. Dodger third baseman Wilson Betemit drifts over toward the bag to make the play. Feliz is positioned on the bag in such a way as to have his right foot on the inside corner and his entire body is in fair territory. As the ball descends, it becomes obvious that it will land almost directly on the third base bag. Feliz, who has possession of the base, makes no attempt to move and Betemit, who is trying to position himself to make the play, bumps into Feliz, the ball actually HITS Feliz and bounds into foul territory BEFORE is actually passes over third base.

Can this be called an OUT on Winn, since a batted ball has struck a runner in fair territory? Can this be considered a foul ball, since a fly ball landed foul prior to crossing third base? Can Feliz be charged with interference by not allowing Betemit a chance to make the play? Can Betemit be charged with impeding the possible progress of a runner by bumping into him while Winn had legal possession of third base?

Seems to me that:

1) This would NOT be ruled a foul ball, since Feliz was in fair territory and, thus, in play (this would be an absurd call, IMO).

2) It would NOT be interference on Feliz, since all he did was hold his ground and was in legal possession of the base.

3) Betemit should NOT be charged with impeding Feliz' progress, as he is entitled to go after the ball, and Feliz was not attempting to advance, anyway.

4) Winn should NOT be called out as a result of a fair ball striking the runner, Feliz, as Feliz was standing on the bag.

Something has to be called and, if I had the choice, I'd pick D - Winn would be called out, but still..... not sure? I made sure that no one was on first base because this would obviously trigger the infield fly rule otherwise, and the entire play would be disregarded.

[STM4UA]

I don't know the ruling but I do not that 4 is not it. A runner who is hit by a batted ball while standing on a base is not out. I'd say no interference or impeding the runner. The only question in my mind is whether it's a fair or foul ball.

[Jake Patterson]

I don't know the ruling but I do not that 4 is not it. A runner who is hit by a batted ball while standing on a base is not out. I'd say no interference or impeding the runner. The only question in my mind is whether it's a fair or foul ball.

LA - I'm moving thread to Ask The Umpire
Jake

[jbooth]

With one out and Pedro Feliz on third base (no other runners on base), Randy Winn sends a high pop-up toward third base. Dodger third baseman Wilson Betemit drifts over toward the bag to make the play. Feliz is positioned on the bag in such a way as to have his right foot on the inside corner and his entire body is in fair territory. As the ball descends, it becomes obvious that it will land almost directly on the third base bag. Feliz, who has possession of the base, makes no attempt to move and Betemit, who is trying to position himself to make the play, bumps into Feliz, the ball actually HITS Feliz and bounds into foul territory BEFORE is actually passes over third base.

Simple call. Feliz is out for being hit by a batted ball before it touches, or passes through or by a fielder. He's not out for interference because he doesn't have to vacate the base to allow the fielder to field the ball. However, the base is NOT a safe haven in regard to avoiding the ball. You're out when hit by the ball even while touching a base.

Rules;

Feliz is NOT out due to the comment of 7.08b

7.08
Any runner is out when --
(b) He intentionally interferes with a thrown ball; or hinders a fielder attempting to make a play on a batted ball;
Rule 7.08(b) Comment: A runner who is adjudged to have hindered a fielder who is attempting to make a play on a batted ball is out whether it was intentional or not.
If, however, the runner has contact with a legally occupied base when he hinders the fielder, he shall not be called out unless, in the umpire’s judgment, such hindrance, whether it occurs on fair or foul territory, is intentional. If the umpire declares the hindrance intentional, the following penalty shall apply: With less than two out, the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter out. With two out, the umpire shall declare the batter out.


Feliz IS out per 7.08f and 7.09k

(f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance.
7.09
It is interference by a batter or a runner when --
(k)A fair ball touches him on fair territory before touching a fielder.


So, Feliz is out and Winn gets first base because he completed his at bat and was not put out.

6.04
A batter has legally completed his time at bat when he is put out or becomes a runner.
6.09
The batter becomes a runner when --
(a) He hits a fair ball;

[jbooth]

I don't know the ruling but I do not that 4 is not it. A runner who is hit by a batted ball while standing on a base is not out. I'd say no interference or impeding the runner. The only question in my mind is whether it's a fair or foul ball.

Well, you are wrong, 4 IS it.

Runner out, batter to first. See my detailed reply. Rules 7.08b comment, 7.09k, 6.04 and 6.09a

[jbooth]

I made sure that no one was on first base because this would obviously trigger the infield fly rule otherwise, and the entire play would be disregarded.


No, runners on first and third is not an infield fly situation. It is first and second OR bases loaded. If bases were loaded on your play, Winn is out on the infield fly (second out), and Feliz is safe because a runner is not out when hit by an infield fly while touching a base.

rule 7.08f EXCEPTION

(f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, no runners advance, except runners forced to advance. EXCEPTION: If a runner is touching his base when touched by an Infield Fly, he is not out, although the batter is out;

[Dodgerfan1]

No, runners on first and third is not an infield fly situation. It is first and second OR bases loaded. If bases were loaded on your play, Winn is out on the infield fly (second out), and Feliz is safe because a runner is not out when hit by an infield fly while touching a base.

rule 7.08f EXCEPTION

(f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, no runners advance, except runners forced to advance. EXCEPTION: If a runner is touching his base when touched by an Infield Fly, he is not out, although the batter is out;


Thanks for the clarification, jbooth. I thought the purpose of the infield fly rule was to ensure that a fielder does not intentionally drop a pop-up in order to start a double play or a force situation. With runners on first and third, a pop-up can still be dropped and a force or double play started as a result, the same as first and second?? I must not have the intent of the rule correct.

[jbooth]

Thanks for the clarification, jbooth. I thought the purpose of the infield fly rule was to ensure that a fielder does not intentionally drop a pop-up in order to start a double play or a force situation. With runners on first and third, a pop-up can still be dropped and a force or double play started as a result, the same as first and second?? I must not have the intent of the rule correct.

You're correct, but with first and third only, R3 is not forced. The rule is in effect when dropping the ball would force ALL runners, so a DP could be made anywhere. With first and third the DP could only be to second and then first.
However, there is a rule (6.05l) that prevents a fielder from intentionally dropping a fly ball when a force other than the infield fly situation is in effect, but the umpire must judge that the ball was intentionally dropped.

6.05
A batter is out when --
(l) An infielder intentionally drops a fair fly ball or line drive, with first, first and second, first and third, or first, second and third base occupied before two are out. The ball is dead and runner or runners shall return to their original base or bases;
APPROVED RULING: In this situation, the batter is not out if the infielder permits the ball to drop untouched to the ground, except when the Infield Fly rule applies.


The difference between 6.05l and the infield fly rule is; that the infield fly rule does not apply to attempted bunts or line drives, whereas, 6.05L does. Also, the infield fly rule allows the ball to drop untouched, or the ball can be dropped by error, and the batter is still out. 6.05l does not apply to an error drop or a ball that falls untouched. It has to be a clear intentional deception of touching the ball and then dropping it.

[Ursa Major]

Dodgerfan, this is how I explain why an infield fly isn't called when the only force is at second base. With more runners on base, you can get a double play on the existing runners because they have to stay one their bases to avoid being doubled off, so dropping the ball would let you get an easy force at third base then at second. However, with the only force play being at second base, there is no easy double play, because the batter will be running full tilt when he hits the ball, leaving the defense no advantage to drop the ball, as they'll only get one out either way.

Jim, quick question on your "simple call" -- of which there is no such thing in my profession (or we'd go out of business :eek:). On a popup that is going to land on the base if not caught, the infielder presumably is standing in front of the base to catch it at head height. But, a gust of wind at AT&T park shoots the ball behind him and it drops and hits Winn. Why wouldn't this invoke the "passed an infielder" exception of Rule 7.08f? From a strictly two-dimensional, bird's eye point-of-view, the ball is further away from home plate than is the fielder.

[Ursa Major]

This discussion of the batted ball hitting a runner caused me to think of a situation we had this weekend where runner going from first to second was hit by a chopper up the middle and called it out, as shown here.

The umpires got this one right, but it raises a related question. When has the ball "passed an infielder" re hitting the runner? Here, the runner was going on the pitch and the second baseman was moving toward the ball when it hit the runner, but, as the picture shows, in any geographic sense he was still slightly behind the runner when the ball contacted the runner.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/BallHitsRunner.jpg
But, what happens if the second baseman is playing in and does (or doesn't) have a play on the ball? Has it "passed him"?

What if there's a runner on second base and the hitter fakes a bunt to draw in the third baseman and then hits a grounder toward shortstop that hits the runner moving from second base right in front of the shortstop. Does the passing of the third baseman count or is the fielder who is most likely to make the play -- here, the shortstop -- who counts and thus results in an out call? Any thoughts?

[jbooth]

Jim, quick question on your "simple call" -- of which there is no such thing in my profession (or we'd go out of business :eek:). On a popup that is going to land on the base if not caught, the infielder presumably is standing in front of the base to catch it at head height. But, a gust of wind at AT&T park shoots the ball behind him and it drops and hits Winn. Why wouldn't this invoke the "passed an infielder" exception of Rule 7.08f? From a strictly two-dimensional, bird's eye point-of-view, the ball is further away from home plate than is the fielder.

The answer was simple based upon the facts presented, counselor, now you've complicated it.:ughh

I think you meant Feliz, who was on third. Yes, in your case play, the runner on third would NOT be out, because he was hit by the ball after it passed "through or by" the fielder.

MLB has a publication (MLB Umpire Manual) that only the umps have access to, but it is similar to one that the public can buy that applies to pro Minor League ball (PBUC Umpire Manual). I have both because I used to have connections at the commissioners office. The MLB Umpire Manual defines "through or by" as follows;

The interpretation to be made with regard to the phrase "a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him" (Official Baseball Rules 7.09(m) and 5.09(f)) is that this refers to a ball that passes through the infielder's legs, or by his immediate vicinity, and strikes a runner directly behind the infielder

Here is more on the subject:

6.4 BATTED BALL STRIKING THE RUNNER
The concept of the runner being in jeopardy after the ball goes past an infielder and strikes the runner in a situation where another infielder still has a chance to make a play on the ball applies ONLY when the ball PASSES the first infielder without being touched or deflected by him. This concept DOES NOT APPLY if the ball is touched or deflected by the first infielder, even though another infielder has a chance to make a play on the ball.
In other words, after a ball has been touched (deflected) by any infielder (including the pitcher), if the ball then strikes a runner (unintentionally on the part of the runner), the ball is alive and in play even if another infielder may be in position to field the ball. (See Official Baseball Rules 5.09(f) and 7.09(m).)
The reasoning for the above concept is that a runner cannot be expected to avoid a deflected ball while running and should not, therefore, be in jeopardy of being called out for being struck by such a deflected ball. Of course, a runner may still be guilty of intentional interference even after an infielder deflects the ball if the runner deliberately deflects the ball or allows it to strike him when he could have reasonably avoided it. The fact that the ball has been deflected by an infielder should not be taken as a license for a runner to interfere intentionally. (See Official Baseball Rules 7.09(g) and (h).)
After a batted ball has been touched (deflected) by an infielder, if the ball then strikes a runner (unintentionally on the part of the runner), it is alive and in play despite the fact that another infielder may be in position to field the ball. This is not the case if a fielder is making a play on the ball. Specifically, if a batted ball is deflected by an infielder and another infielder has a play on the ball, the runner must avoid the fielder. If the runner interferes with the fielder making a play — even though the ball has been touched by another fielder — the runner is declared out.
Under the rules, a fielder making a play on a batted ball takes priority.
On the other hand, if a batted ball goes through or by an infielder (other than the pitcher) without touching the fielder and then strikes a runner immediately behind the infielder, the umpire must then determine if another infielder has a chance to make a play on the ball. If the umpire determines another infielder does have a chance, the runner is out. If the umpire determines another infielder does not have a chance, the ball is alive and in play. The interpretation to be made with regard to the phrase "a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him" (Official Baseball Rules 7.09(m) and 5.09(f)) is that this refers to a ball that passes through the infielder's legs, or by his immediate vicinity, and strikes a runner directly behind the infielder.

EXAMPLES:
(1) Runner on second base, one out. The batter hits a ball on the ground toward the hole. The third baseman charges in on the grass to try to cut the ball off as the shortstop breaks deep toward the hole while the runner is advancing. The ball gets past the third baseman without the third baseman having touched it and strikes the runner in the base path. The shortstop had a play on the ball.
Ruling: Runner from second is out and the batter-runner is awarded first base. The ball passed by but was not touched by an infielder other than the pitcher before striking the runner. However, another fielder behind the runner was deprived of an opportunity to field the ball.
(2) Runner on second base, one out. The batter hits a ground ball toward the hole. The third baseman charges in on the grass to cut the ball off and the shortstop breaks deep toward the hole as the runner advances. The ball is deflected by the third baseman in the direction of the shortstop. The shortstop would have had a play on the ball, but the ball struck the runner,
resulting in no play being possible.
Ruling: Runner from second is not out and the ball is alive and in play (assuming no intentional interference by the runner from second). The fact that the shortstop would have been able to make a play on the ball had it not struck the runner is disregarded because the ball was deflected
by the first infielder.
(3) Runner on first base, one out. Runner is stealing on the next pitch. The batter hits a ground ball back toward the pitcher. The pitcher deflects the ball in the direction of the second baseman, who definitely has a chance to make a play on it. However, the ball strikes the runner before it reaches the second baseman.
Ruling: Runner from first is not out; the ball remains alive and in play (assuming no intentional
interference by the runner). Compare this play with the following play.
(4) Runner on first base, one out. Runner is running on the next pitch. The batter hits a ground ball back toward the pitcher. The pitcher deflects the ball in the direction of the second baseman. As the runner is running directly to second base, he unintentionally bumps into the second baseman, who is attempting to field the deflected ball.
Ruling: Interference is called and the runner from first is declared out. Even though deflected, this is still a batted ball and the runner must avoid the fielder. The batter-runner is awarded first base.

[jbooth]

This discussion of the batted ball hitting a runner caused me to think of a situation we had this weekend where runner going from first to second was hit by a chopper up the middle and called it out, as shown here.

The umpires got this one right, but it raises a related question. When has the ball "passed an infielder" re hitting the runner? Here, the runner was going on the pitch and the second baseman was moving toward the ball when it hit the runner, but, as the picture shows, in any geographic sense he was still slightly behind the runner when the ball contacted the runner.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/BallHitsRunner.jpg
But, what happens if the second baseman is playing in and does (or doesn't) have a play on the ball? Has it "passed him"?

What if there's a runner on second base and the hitter fakes a bunt to draw in the third baseman and then hits a grounder toward shortstop that hits the runner moving from second base right in front of the shortstop. Does the passing of the third baseman count or is the fielder who is most likely to make the play -- here, the shortstop -- who counts and thus results in an out call? Any thoughts?

So, in the play in your photo, due to the fact that the ball was NOT deflected, and it did NOT go through a fielder's legs, nor pass NEAR BY a fielder, this runner is OUT. As a lawyer, you should understand the importance and use of the word "AND." This rule is complicated because the book states it in 3 different places and is not consistent with its wording in each place. Rule 5.09f


The rule states that the runner is not out if the ball -

"If a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him, or touches a runner after being deflected by an infielder, the ball is in play and the umpire shall not declare the runner out."

The way I try to simply teach this is this;

First tell yourself that a runner hit by a batted ball is OUT, but remember that there are a few EXCEPTIONS. Fundamental principle is he is OUT, then determine if an exception applies.

The exceptions to being out are;

1) he is hit by a deflected ball
2) he is hit after the ball passes through or by a fielder
then there is an exception to "2)" that makes him OUT again. If the ball passes through or by, yet another fielder can still make a play.

"Through or by" is literally that the ball must pass through the legs or near by the fielder. If that does not occur, the runner is OUT.

[Ursa Major]

Jim Booth said: "The answer was simple based upon the facts presented, counselor, now you've complicated it."I didn't complicate nuthin'. It's a pretty crucial component to know -- where was the infielder when the ball hit the runner? And I can't see an infielder letting a popup drop in front of him. So, I think it's reasonable to ask the question. Real facts are never as simple as they are presented in exam questions, y'know. Fortunately, in my line of work I don't have to make an instant call on complicated facts with 40,000 people breathing down my neck.

Jim Booth said: So, in the play in your photo, due to the fact that the ball was NOT deflected, and it did NOT go through a fielder's legs, nor pass NEAR BY a fielder, this runner is OUT. I do not question that the kid in the photo was out. My hypothetical arises when the infielder is near the ball and it does pass by him. How close does he need to be?

You do raise an interesting inconsistency that happens more often than we'd like in the law -- what happens when you have two statutes or rules that apply to the same situation but are worded slightly differently. Or, one could assume that the rule you newly state (about the ball striking a running "immediately in back" of the fielder) just clarify what "passing by" the infielder means.

This suggests that even a ball that the infielder should have gotten to but doesn't can still result in an out because the runner won't be "immediately behind" the infielder when he is struck. The rule presumably is to be fair to the runner where he has been screened by the fielder and didn't see the ball until it got through him. But, even this doesn't protect the runner, because a ball that cleanly gets under a fielder's glove but hits a runner where another infielder could have reached the ball still makes for an out even though the runner was screened.

Still, it's easy to see lots of scenarios where strict application doesn't invoke the "screening rule" the other way. Say, what if the third baseman charges on a first and second base bunt situation and the batter pops the ball way over the third baseman's head down the line, where it hits the runner going into third base. Even though the runner was in no way screened from the ball, he still is "immediately behind" the third baseman and called safe (unless "immediately" is interpreted to mean only a few feet behind, which would make the runner out).

Oh well, we'll let the angels dancing on my pinhead take a rest now.

Thanks for passing along the inside knowledge about MLB's supersecret interpretations of the rules. That's awesome!

John

[minh]

Since players don't really have to play where they do (example: center fielder right behind second), if a first basemen plays in the third basemen's spot while still being the first basemen in the game, and vice versa, does that count as a game being a first basemen?

[jbooth]

I do not question that the kid in the photo was out. My hypothetical arises when the infielder is near the ball and it does pass by him. How close does he need to be?

This suggests that even a ball that the infielder should have gotten to but doesn't can still result in an out because the runner won't be "immediately behind" the infielder when he is struck.

Even though the runner was in no way screened from the ball, he still is "immediately behind" the third baseman and called safe (unless "immediately" is interpreted to mean only a few feet behind, which would make the runner out).


The best info I can give you is the wording from the rule book, and its explanation from the MLB Umpire Manual, which is;

"The interpretation to be made with regard to the phrase "a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him" (Official Baseball Rules 7.09(m) and 5.09(f)) is that this refers to a ball that passes through the infielder's legs, or by his immediate vicinity, and strikes a runner directly behind the infielder."

It's a judgment call, but fundamentally, if the runner is hit at a location that is not near a fielder, and not in the immediate vicinity behind the fielder, he is out.

Basically, if you stood with your feet wide apart, and your arms stretched out, parallel to the baseline; the runner is NOT out if he is hit by the ball right behind you and within the area from fingertip to fingertip (unless another fielder has a play). If he is hit anywhere else, he IS out.

[bluezebra]

Since players don't really have to play where they do (example: center fielder right behind second), if a first basemen plays in the third basemen's spot while still being the first basemen in the game, and vice versa, does that count as a game being a first basemen?

"...does that count as a game being a first basemen?"

HUH???

If the first baseman moves across the diamond to play at third, he is NOW the third baseman. Same goes for any defensive player. Except for shifts.

Bob

[Ursa Major]

Basically, if you stood with your feet wide apart, and your arms stretched out, parallel to the baseline; the runner is NOT out if he is hit by the ball right behind you and within the area from fingertip to fingertip (unless another fielder has a play). If he is hit anywhere else, he IS out.Thanks, Jim. That makes plenty of sense. It would be interesting to see what kind of carnage your average youth level umpire would commit in connection with this rule.

[minh]

bluezebra, I thought that no position had an exact spot they had to be at?

[bluezebra]

Thanks for the clarification, jbooth. I thought the purpose of the infield fly rule was to ensure that a fielder does not intentionally drop a pop-up in order to start a double play or a force situation. With runners on first and third, a pop-up can still be dropped and a force or double play started as a result, the same as first and second?? I must not have the intent of the rule correct.

Think about the Infield Fly Rule situation this way. There has to be a DOUBLE FORCE OUT situation to be in effect.

Bob

[bluezebra]

bluezebra, I thought that no position had an exact spot they had to be at?

EXACT POSITION, no. But look at it this way:

At the time of the pitch (TOP)..In the outfield, fielder closest to the left field foul line is the Left Fielder. The fielder closest to the right field foul line is the Right Fielder. The fielder between them is the Center Fielder. The fielderclosest to 3B is the Third Baseman, etc., etc., etc. Of course the fielder with the ball on the pitcher's plate is the Pitcher, and the fielder behind home plate waiting for the pitch is the Catcher.

Example: If the center fielder and the left fielder change positions in the field, they are listed that way by the Official Scorer, no matter where they were listed on the original batting order.

Jones..LF, CF
Brown..CF, LF

If they switch back, Jones..LF, CF, LF; Brown..CF, LF, CF.

Bob

[minh]

Ahh... I see, thanks

[Mattingly]

If a batter bats out of order, or a runner misses a base, the other team has until the next pitch to make an appeal. That doesn't pertain to a mistake by an umpire. In this case the umpire could and did change his call. This is backed up by the official rules of baseball. The changed call was the proper call.
So if a runner misses a base and scores, if an ump caught this, does he tell the batter that he's done this? Does he also tell the opposing players or their manager about this, so that the player can run back to touch the base and the fielders try to get him out?

One more question about base-running. If a guy is on 1B, but he drives the winning run on a hit, if the batter is about to tag 3B but the winning run scores just a moment ahead of this, is the batter still credited with a triple or just a double? Or does this depend upon whether or not a play was being made for home?

Oh yeah, I do hope that everyone here's having fun with this topic. :)

[brookspw]

So if a runner misses a base and scores, if an ump caught this, does he tell the batter that he's done this? Does he also tell the opposing players or their manager about this, so that the player can run back to touch the base and the fielders try to get him out?



No way, Jose. Defense has to see it and make a proper appeal before the next pitch. Umpire says nothing in this sitch.

To your second question -- it is a double.

[bluezebra]

So if a runner misses a base and scores, if an ump caught this, does he tell the batter that he's done this? Does he also tell the opposing players or their manager about this, so that the player can run back to touch the base and the fielders try to get him out?

One more question about base-running. If a guy is on 1B, but he drives the winning run on a hit, if the batter is about to tag 3B but the winning run scores just a moment ahead of this, is the batter still credited with a triple or just a double? Or does this depend upon whether or not a play was being made for home?

Oh yeah, I do hope that everyone here's having fun with this topic. :)


RULE 10 THE OFFICIAL SCORER
GAME ENDING HITS

(f) Subject to the provisions of 10.07 (g), when the batter ends a game with a safe hit which drives in as many runs as are necessary to put his team in the lead, he shall be credited with only as many bases on his hit as are advanced by the runner who scores the winning run, and then only if the batter runs out his hit for as many bases as are advanced by the runner who scores the winning run.

Since the winning run was at 1B at the time of the pitch, and the BR was about to touch 3B when the winning run scored, BY RULE, I would credit him with a triple.

Bob

[PositiveCoachBob]

Can you point out where in the rules it states what consttutes the BEGINNING of an inning.

Bob

[bluezebra]

Since players don't really have to play where they do (example: center fielder right behind second), if a first basemen plays in the third basemen's spot while still being the first basemen in the game, and vice versa, does that count as a game being a first basemen?

1..If the CF is right behind second, he's still the middle OF, and F8.

2..No. When a player takes a position on the field, that's what's recorded in the official scorebook. If F3 moves to F5, for that time, he's the third baseman. And by OBR, he must switch to a glove, not use his mitt. In FED he may still use a mitt.

Bob

[bluezebra]

Can you point out where in the rules it states what consttutes the BEGINNING of an inning.

Bob

OBR RULE 2 DEFINITIONS
"An INNING is that portion of a game within which the teams alternate on offense and defense and in which there are three putouts for each team. Each team's time at bat is a half inning."

An inning starts as soon as the third out is made in the previous half inning.

Bob

[Utter Chaos]

I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere but there was a play in our little league game today that I questioned.

Runner on first base, batter hits the ball to right field that bounces over the fence. Now there is a protective screen that extends from the bottom of the fence to about 15 feet above it to protect the fans on another field. So when the ball bounced over the fence it hit the protective screen and bounced back on our field. The right fielder threw it to the 2nd baseman who had no play on the runner from first who was scoring. The batter got a double.

The home plate umpire did not immediately signal "ground rule double". After the play was over a fan said it should be a GR2B so the home plate ump asked the base ump if it hit the screen. The base ump said yes so they sent the runner that scored back to third.

Now I mentioned that the umpire could allow the run to score if he believes it would have if not for the GR2B. The opposing coach disagreed with me.

I later checked the rule book but could not find anything that mentions the umpire allowing an extra base if he sees fit. A google search does mention a couple of occurances of this happening. One involving a Lyle Overbay bases loaded clearing ground rule double and an occurance in the 2003 All Star game.

Can anybody tell me what rule (professional or little league) that allows the umpire to award a runner from first to score on a GR2B? Thanks.

[jbooth]

The home plate umpire did not immediately signal "ground rule double". After the play was over a fan said it should be a GR2B so the home plate ump asked the base ump if it hit the screen. The base ump said yes so they sent the runner that scored back to third.

That was correct.

Now I mentioned that the umpire could allow the run to score if he believes it would have if not for the GR2B. The opposing coach disagreed with me.

The other coach was correct, you are wrong.

I later checked the rule book but could not find anything that mentions the umpire allowing an extra base if he sees fit.

That's because it doesn't exist.

Can anybody tell me what rule (professional or little league) that allows the umpire to award a runner from first to score on a GR2B? Thanks.

No, because there is no such rule.

A ground rule double is rule 6.09e and 7.05f

7.05
Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance --
(f) Two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected into the stands outside the first or third base foul lines; or if it goes through or under a field fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery or vines on the fence; or if it sticks in such fence, scoreboard, shrubbery or vines;
6.09
The batter becomes a runner when --
(e) A fair ball, after touching the ground, bounds into the stands, or passes through, over or under a fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery, or vines on the fence, in which case the batter and the runners shall be entitled to advance two bases;



The rule is specific. The batter AND each runner get TWO bases. Period.
The only situations that allow umpires to award bases at their discretion are 3.15 and 7.06b

7.06
When obstruction occurs, the umpire shall call or signal "Obstruction."
(b) If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible. The umpire shall then call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.

3.15
No person shall be allowed on the playing field during a game except players and coaches in uniform, managers, news photographers authorized by the home team, umpires, officers of the law in uniform and watchmen or other employees of the home club. In case of unintentional interference with play by any person herein authorized to be on the playing field (except members of the offensive team participating in the game, or a coach in the coach’s box, or an umpire) the ball is alive and in play. If the interference is intentional, the ball shall be dead at the moment of the interference and the umpire shall impose such penalties as in his opinion will nullify the act of interference.

[mike28nc]

I have a question:

Running on 1st with two outs 0-0 count. when the pitcher pitched the ball running on 1st took off for 2nd. Catcher threw out the runner but the batter also interfered with the throw. Catcher grazed his helmet on the throw. Now runner is out at 2nd on the throw for the third out in the inning. Doesn't the batter at the plate that interfered with the throw also get called out the next inning?

Mike

[Utter Chaos]

I later checked the rule book but could not find anything that mentions the umpire allowing an extra base if he sees fit. A google search does mention a couple of occurances of this happening. One involving a Lyle Overbay bases loaded clearing ground rule double and an occurance in the 2003 All Star game.

Can anybody tell me what rule (professional or little league) that allows the umpire to award a runner from first to score on a GR2B? Thanks.
That's because it doesn't exist...because there is no such rule.

A ground rule double is rule 6.09e and 7.05f

7.05
Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance --
(f) Two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected into the stands outside the first or third base foul lines; or if it goes through or under a field fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery or vines on the fence; or if it sticks in such fence, scoreboard, shrubbery or vines;
6.09
The batter becomes a runner when --
(e) A fair ball, after touching the ground, bounds into the stands, or passes through, over or under a fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery, or vines on the fence, in which case the batter and the runners shall be entitled to advance two bases;



The rule is specific. The batter AND each runner get TWO bases. Period.
The only situations that allow umpires to award bases at their discretion are 3.15 and 7.06b

So on April 9 of this year, professional umpire Paul Nauret (http://sports.aol.com/news/articles/_a/blue-jays-9-royals-1/n20070409224209990004?cid=561) was wrong :confused:
Royals manager Buddy Bell was ejected after plate umpire Paul Nauret allowed Toronto's Reed Johnson to score from first on a ground-rule double that a fan interfered with.

A runner is usually awarded two bases when there is a ground-rule double, but Nauret deemed Johnson would have scored on Overbay's second-inning hit to right.

And Tim McClelland was wrong in the 5th inning of the 2003 All Star Game? :confused:
NATIONAL LEAGUE 5TH: WELLS STAYED IN GAME (PLAYING CF); HASEGAWA
REPLACED MOYER (PITCHING); Sheffield walked; Helton homered
[Sheffield scored]; Rolen singled to right; Lopez flied to
center; Vidro was called out on strikes; FURCAL BATTED FOR
RENTERIA; Furcal singled to center [Rolen to second]; GUARDADO
REPLACED HASEGAWA (PITCHING); JONES BATTED FOR EDMONDS; Jones
doubled [Rolen scored, Furcal scored]; fan interference in LF
corner; Furcal awarded home; Scioscia argued call on 2nd
run; Pujols singled to left [Jones scored]; Bonds grounded
out (first unassisted); 5 R, 5 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. National League
5, American League 1.

I suspect the rule the umpires in the above two cases are invoking is:

9.01 (c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.

[jbooth]

So on April 9 of this year, professional umpire Paul Nauret (http://sports.aol.com/news/articles/_a/blue-jays-9-royals-1/n20070409224209990004?cid=561) was wrong :confused:

And Tim McClelland was wrong in the 5th inning of the 2003 All Star Game? :confused:


No, you don't seem to understand. Both of the plays you recount above are NOT ground rule doubles covered by 7.05f. They MAY have been if it had not been SPECTATOR INTEFERENCE which I quoted to you, is rule 3.15. The fans reached onto the field and touched the ball in playable territory. The ump in that case does what he believes would nullify the interference, rule 3.15. If the fans had not touched the balls then 7.05f would have applied if the balls went over the fence. Heck, the quote from the article clearly states that fans interfered with the ball, so why do you keep saying they were ground rule doubles? They were not. They were spectator interference. In YOUR youth league game, there was no spectator interference. The ball simply bounced over the fence, which is covered by rule 7.05f ground rule double. Two bases only, no umpire discretion. The difference between your play and the MLB plays you reference, is the fan involvement.

I suspect the rule the umpires in the above two cases are invoking is:

9.01 (c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.

No, they invoked 3.15, spectator interference. The plays are specifically covered.

[Utter Chaos]

No, you don't seem to understand. Both of the plays you recount above are NOT a ground rule doubles covered by 7.05f. They MAY have been if it had not been SPECTATOR INTEFERENCE which I quoted to you, is rule 3.15. The fans reached onto the field and touched the ball in playable territory. The ump in that case does what he believes would nullify the interference, rule 3.15. If the fans had not touched the balls then 7.05f would have applied. Heck, the quote from the article clearly states that fans interfered with the ball. In YOUR youth league game, there was no spectator interference. The ball simply bounced over the fence, which is covered by rule 7.05f. Two bases only, no umpire discretion.



No, they invoked 3.15, spectator interference the plays are specifically covered.All right, I understand the difference now. Thanks.

[jbooth]

I have a question:

Running on 1st with two outs 0-0 count. when the pitcher pitched the ball running on 1st took off for 2nd. Catcher threw out the runner but the batter also interfered with the throw. Catcher grazed his helmet on the throw. Now runner is out at 2nd on the throw for the third out in the inning. Doesn't the batter at the plate that interfered with the throw also get called out the next inning?

Mike

Nope.

6.06
A batter is out for illegal action when --
(c) He interferes with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter’s box or making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base. EXCEPTION: Batter is not out if any runner attempting to advance is put out, or if runner trying to score is called out for batter’s interference.
Rule 6.06(c) Comment: If the batter interferes with the catcher, the plate umpire shall call “interference.” The batter is out and the ball dead. No player may advance on such interference (offensive interference) and all runners must return to the last base that was, in the judgment of the umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference.
If, however, the catcher makes a play and the runner attempting to advance is put out, it is to be assumed there was no actual interference and that runner is out—not the batter. Any other runners on the base at the time may advance as the ruling is that there is no actual interference if a runner is retired. In that case play proceeds just as if no violation had been called.



Because the batter did not complete his at-bat in your play, he will lead off the next inning.

[GFK]

Batter hits a gapper and tries to stretch it into a double. He is tagged out at 2B. Is he awarded a single? Has the pitcher given up a hit? How do you score it?

Runner on 1B. Batter hits a gapper and makes it to 1B. Runner originally on 1B tries to leg it out to 3B but is tagged by the thirdbaseman on a throw from the OF'er. Does this count as an FC? Is the batter awarded a single?

[jbooth]

Batter hits a gapper and tries to stretch it into a double. He is tagged out at 2B. Is he awarded a single? Has the pitcher given up a hit? How do you score it?

Runner on 1B. Batter hits a gapper and makes it to 1B. Runner originally on 1B tries to leg it out to 3B but is tagged by the thirdbaseman on a throw from the OF'er. Does this count as an FC? Is the batter awarded a single?

Here's a link to scoring rules. Look it up.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

[GFK]

Here's a link to scoring rules. Look it up.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

Thanks Jim. Sort of like reading goverment regs. From what I read, the batter would be awarded a single in both cases.

[Old Timer]

Here's something that happened to me in high school back in the 80s'. Not really a rules question but there was a lot of confusion.......

I'm a runner on first base, I straight steal second base (without looking back to see if the ball was hit) and slide in safely. I stood up and the short stop casually says "foul tip". I jog back to first. There was no foul tip and the pitcher was dumbfounded that I was going back to first and didn't know what to do. Basically I stole second and then first. Is there a rule stating that you can't steal a base backwards? By the way on the next pitch I stole second again and told the short stop that he was a "jerk" out of frustration and humiliation. Don't recall who the short stop was but he probably to this day tells that story to his buddies and gets a few laughs.

[jbooth]

Here's something that happened to me in high school back in the 80s'. Not really a rules question but there was a lot of confusion.......

I'm a runner on first base, I straight steal second base (without looking back to see if the ball was hit) and slide in safely. I stood up and the short stop casually says "foul tip". I jog back to first. There was no foul tip and the pitcher was dumbfounded that I was going back to first and didn't know what to do. Basically I stole second and then first. Is there a rule stating that you can't steal a base backwards? By the way on the next pitch I stole second again and told the short stop that he was a "jerk" out of frustration and humiliation. Don't recall who the short stop was but he probably to this day tells that story to his buddies and gets a few laughs.

A very common play in HS. You fell for his trick. Never listen to anyone but the umpire regarding whether you're safe, out, have to go back, may advance, or time is out. There's no rule against it, and as long as you went back without trying to confuse the defense while a runner was on third, you just simply gave up your advance, and put yourself in jeopardy of being put out as you trotted back to first.

BTW, even if it WAS a foul-tip, you wouldn't have to return, a foul-tip is a live ball strike. He should have said, "Foul Ball."

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Yeah, a runner could stand out next to an outfielder and chat with him while a pitch is thrown, but as soon as the catcher catches the pitch, and then throws to an infielder, and that infielder turns and takes one step toward the runner in the outfield, the ump should call that runner out. Mickey Mouse, Shenanigans, not within the spirit and intent of the rules is not allowed. 9.01c.But say you took your lead about 10 feet away from 1B towards the outfield. Even if someone started to make a play on you, as long as you run directly at 2B, you're fine correct?

Also, I was watching the movie "Gung Ho" today, and noticed a wrong call in a baseball game. A guy hits a fly ball, and the Japanese guy (the SS) is standing right on the baseline to catch it. The guy who started on 1B runs all the way around and just as the SS is about to catch the ball the runner hits him. He's called safe at 3B and the play stands as if it simply wasn't a catch. This play is covered by 7.08 b) right? Even though the fielder was right on the baseline?

[jbooth]

But say you took your lead about 10 feet away from 1B towards the outfield. Even if someone started to make a play on you, as long as you run directly at 2B, you're fine correct?

Yes. The spirit and intent of the rule is that a runner is supposed to run from base to base, and he can't cause fielders to have to play cat and mouse games and chase the runner all over the field. The runner is not required to run in perfectly straight lines, nor stay on a line from one base to another, and when nobody is making a play on him, he can go where he wants within reason, but when he is being played upon he can't go just anywhere he wishes, he needs to proceed to some base.

Also, I was watching the movie "Gung Ho" today, and noticed a wrong call in a baseball game. A guy hits a fly ball, and the Japanese guy (the SS) is standing right on the baseline to catch it. The guy who started on 1B runs all the way around and just as the SS is about to catch the ball the runner hits him. He's called safe at 3B and the play stands as if it simply wasn't a catch. This play is covered by 7.08 b) right? Even though the fielder was right on the baseline?

You can't trust what you see in the movies. A fielder who is fielding a BATTED ball, has ALL the right of way, and runners and all offensive team members must avoid him wherever he is and wherever he needs to move to catch the ball. 7.08b and 7.11.

7.11
The players, coaches or any member of an offensive team shall vacate any space (including both dugouts) needed by a fielder who is attempting to field a batted or thrown ball.
PENALTY: Interference shall be called and the batter or runner on whom the play is being made shall be declared out.


On a THROWN ball, the runner has a right to try to reach the base safely and does not need to vacate the baseline, provided he does not do anything intentional to interfere with the fielder.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Yes. The spirit and intent of the rule is that a runner is supposed to run from base to base, and he can't cause fielders to have to play cat and mouse games and chase the runner all over the field. The runner is not required to run in perfectly straight lines, nor stay on a line from one base to another, and when nobody is making a play on him, he can go where he wants within reason, but when he is being played upon he can't go just anywhere he wishes, he needs to proceed to some base.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can't trust what you see in the movies. A fielder who is fielding a BATTED ball, has ALL the right of way, and runners and all offensive team members must avoid him wherever he is and wherever he needs to move to catch the ball. 7.08b and 7.11.

7.11
The players, coaches or any member of an offensive team shall vacate any space (including both dugouts) needed by a fielder who is attempting to field a batted or thrown ball.
PENALTY: Interference shall be called and the batter or runner on whom the play is being made shall be declared out.


On a THROWN ball, the runner has a right to try to reach the base safely and does not need to vacate the baseline, provided he does not do anything intentional to interfere with the fielder.That's what I thought. Thanks.

[bluezebra]

I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere but there was a play in our little league game today that I questioned.

Runner on first base, batter hits the ball to right field that bounces over the fence. Now there is a protective screen that extends from the bottom of the fence to about 15 feet above it to protect the fans on another field. So when the ball bounced over the fence it hit the protective screen and bounced back on our field. The right fielder threw it to the 2nd baseman who had no play on the runner from first who was scoring. The batter got a double.

The home plate umpire did not immediately signal "ground rule double". After the play was over a fan said it should be a GR2B so the home plate ump asked the base ump if it hit the screen. The base ump said yes so they sent the runner that scored back to third.

Now I mentioned that the umpire could allow the run to score if he believes it would have if not for the GR2B. The opposing coach disagreed with me.

I later checked the rule book but could not find anything that mentions the umpire allowing an extra base if he sees fit. A google search does mention a couple of occurances of this happening. One involving a Lyle Overbay bases loaded clearing ground rule double and an occurance in the 2003 All Star game.

Can anybody tell me what rule (professional or little league) that allows the umpire to award a runner from first to score on a GR2B? Thanks.

After the play was over a fan said it should be a GR2B so the home plate ump asked the base ump if it hit the screen.

BIG mistake. I never listened to spectators about the value of a play.

Bob

[bluezebra]

Here's something that happened to me in high school back in the 80s'. Not really a rules question but there was a lot of confusion.......

I'm a runner on first base, I straight steal second base (without looking back to see if the ball was hit) and slide in safely. I stood up and the short stop casually says "foul tip". I jog back to first. There was no foul tip and the pitcher was dumbfounded that I was going back to first and didn't know what to do. Basically I stole second and then first. Is there a rule stating that you can't steal a base backwards? By the way on the next pitch I stole second again and told the short stop that he was a "jerk" out of frustration and humiliation. Don't recall who the short stop was but he probably to this day tells that story to his buddies and gets a few laughs.

Frankly, OT, it was you who was the "jerK". NEVER listen to a member of the opposing team. Take your instructions from your coach or the umpire(s).

Bob

[bluezebra]

But say you took your lead about 10 feet away from 1B towards the outfield. Even if someone started to make a play on you, as long as you run directly at 2B, you're fine correct?

Also, I was watching the movie "Gung Ho" today, and noticed a wrong call in a baseball game. A guy hits a fly ball, and the Japanese guy (the SS) is standing right on the baseline to catch it. The guy who started on 1B runs all the way around and just as the SS is about to catch the ball the runner hits him. He's called safe at 3B and the play stands as if it simply wasn't a catch. This play is covered by 7.08 b) right? Even though the fielder was right on the baseline?

Good old Hollywood. "Gung Ho" is a CHINESE phrase, not Japanese. It was adopted as a battle cry by the Marine Raiders in WWII.

Bob

[Williamsburg2599]

I apologize if this has been brought up before, but here is the situation:
Drag bunt. The hitter tosses his bat at the ball, while still in the box, and then runs safely to first. What's the call?

[Jake Patterson]

Good old Hollywood. "Gung Ho" is a CHINESE phrase, not Japanese. It was adopted as a battle cry by the Marine Raiders in WWII.

Bob

Here's a link for the Marine Raiders. It explains Gung Ho. Blue has it right ..... again.

http://www.usmarineraiders.org/gungho.htm

[captlid]

On a foul tip if a runner is trying to steal a base, can the defense double him off at the base he just left or is the play just treated as a regular strike?

[jbooth]

On a foul tip if a runner is trying to steal a base, can the defense double him off at the base he just left or is the play just treated as a regular strike?

Double him off for what? Running on a strike?

A foul-tip is a pitch that nicks the bat and goes straight to the catcher's glove and is caught. If that happens, it is played as if the bat never hit the ball, it is the same as a swing and complete miss.

If the pitch nicks the bat and is not caught, then it is a foul ball. The strange thing is the name "foul-tip." There is nothing foul about it. If the definition is met, it is just a live ball, strike.

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play.
A STRIKE is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire, which --
(g) Becomes a foul tip.

[Ursa Major]

Jim Booth said: The strange thing is the name "foul-tip." That's right up there with the term "foul pole", which similarly should be referred to as "fair pole" because it's entirely in fair territory.

[bluezebra]

I apologize if this has been brought up before, but here is the situation:
Drag bunt. The hitter tosses his bat at the ball, while still in the box, and then runs safely to first. What's the call?

If the thrown bat interferes with a fielder attempting to make a play, or the bat hits the ball, the BR is out. All runners return to base at TOP.

Otherwise, it's nothing.

Bob

[bluezebra]

Here's a link for the Marine Raiders. It explains Gung Ho. Blue has it right ..... again.

http://www.usmarineraiders.org/gungho.htm

As A Marine (Korean 'Police Action" era), I better know the history of the Raiders.

President Roosevelt was intrigued by the British Commandos, and wanted an American equivalent. Who better than the Marine Corps? His son James was a Raider. Aside from Carlson, there was a battalion commanded by 'Red' Mike Edson.

By the way, the original "Gung Ho" movie was about the Raiders, and starred Randolph Scott.

SEMPER FI

Bob

[jbooth]

If the thrown bat interferes with a fielder attempting to make a play, or the bat hits the ball, the BR is out. All runners return to base at TOP.

Otherwise, it's nothing.

Bob

I think you mean if the bat hits the ball a second time, the batter is out. If he throws the bat at the pitch, and hits it, it is just a batted ball. Right?

[bluezebra]

I think you mean if the bat hits the ball a second time, the batter is out. If he throws the bat at the pitch, and hits it, it is just a batted ball. Right?

Right.

Bob

[Braves Fan 24]

okay so a question for you guys, not so much about the rules though, but first here was the situation: My highschool team is playing, and it's the bottom of 7 (7 inning game) and we're down 9-3 with runners on first and third and one out. Ground ball it to third, so are guys slides into second to break up the double play. He did not go out of his way to break it up, just slid hard into the bag like you would any other time. The field umpire tells him "there is no need for that" (reffering to the slide) to which the runner replies (without looking back as he's jogging away) "I'm just playing the game" The umpire then throws him out of the game for being a smartass. I guess what I'm wondering is how you guys would have reacted in the same situation, because it just seemed a little unusual to me.

[bluezebra]

okay so a question for you guys, not so much about the rules though, but first here was the situation: My highschool team is playing, and it's the bottom of 7 (7 inning game) and we're down 9-3 with runners on first and third and one out. Ground ball it to third, so are guys slides into second to break up the double play. He did not go out of his way to break it up, just slid hard into the bag like you would any other time. The field umpire tells him "there is no need for that" (reffering to the slide) to which the runner replies (without looking back as he's jogging away) "I'm just playing the game" The umpire then throws him out of the game for being a smartass. I guess what I'm wondering is how you guys would have reacted in the same situation, because it just seemed a little unusual to me.

"I'm just playing the game"

Just play it with a little less enthusiasm.

Frankly, though, if it were a legal slide, I'd ignore it.

Ground ball it to third, so are guys slides into second to break up the double play.

1..I believe you mean "our".
2.."Guys". Do you mean more than one runner slid into 2B?

Bob

[Ursa Major]

We had a situation tonight that I think the umpire called sorta correctly, but it took awhile, but I'm interested in others' thoughts. With the bases loaded against us and one out, the batter hit a soft liner toward the shortstop. The runner on second had started toward third but seeing the ball in the air spun around and headed back to second. In doing so, he collided with the shortstop, who had come in behind him to catch the line drive, and the ball dropped to the ground.

The offensive team's manager insisted that the runner was innocently turning to return to his base and should not be penalized. Our manager insisted that the play would have been a sure double play on the catch and throw to second to double off that runner, as surely would have occurred. The umpires called the ball dead and the batter out. As I understand the applicable rules, the runner is out regardless of his innocence, under Rule 7.08(b), which reads:

7.08(b) A runner is out [if]:
(b) He intentionally interferes with a thrown ball; or hinders a fielder attempting to make a play on a batted ball;
Rule 7.08(b) Comment: A runner who is adjudged to have hindered a fielder who is attempting to make a play on a batted ball is out whether it was intentional or not.

If, however, the runner has contact with a legally occupied base when he hinders the fielder, he shall not be called out unless, in the umpire’s judgment, such hindrance, whether it occurs on fair or foul territory, is intentional. If the umpire declares the hindrance intentional, the following penalty shall apply: With less than two out, the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter out. With two out, the umpire shall declare the batter out.

So, the question becomes -- do the umpires have the discretion to adjudge that the play so clearly would have been a double play absent the interference that they would declare both the batter and runner out? Apparently not; Rule 7.09(f) reads,
"If, in the judgment of the umpire, a batter-runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball, with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead; the umpire shall call the batter-runner out for interference and shall also call out the runner who had advanced closest to the home plate regardless where the double play might have been possible. In no event shall bases be run because of such interference."
So, the umpires screwed up in calling the batter out rather than the runner but otherwise got it right. Anyone have a different read on it?

[jbooth]

We had a situation tonight that I think the umpire called sorta correctly, but it took awhile, but I'm interested in others' thoughts. With the bases loaded against us and one out, the batter hit a soft liner toward the shortstop. The runner on second had started toward third but seeing the ball in the air spun around and headed back to second. In doing so, he collided with the shortstop, who had come in behind him to catch the line drive, and the ball dropped to the ground.

The offensive team's manager insisted that the runner was innocently turning to return to his base and should not be penalized. Our manager insisted that the play would have been a sure double play on the catch and throw to second to double off that runner, as surely would have occurred. The umpires called the ball dead and the batter out. As I understand the applicable rules, the runner is out regardless of his innocence, under Rule 7.08(b), which reads:



So, the question becomes -- do the umpires have the discretion to adjudge that the play so clearly would have been a double play absent the interference that they would declare both the batter and runner out? Apparently not; Rule 7.09(f) reads,

So, the umpires screwed up in calling the batter out rather than the runner but otherwise got it right. Anyone have a different read on it?

There is another issue; they needed to judge if this was an infield-fly or not.

If it WAS, then the batter is out on the infield-fly, and the runner is out for interference, ball is dead when the interference occurs.

Since you said it was a soft-liner, and line drives cannot be an infield-fly, then the ruling is a simple call, 7.08b. Runner out for interference regardless of intent.

7.09f is not applicable here. The batter-runner did nothing to intentionally interfere with a possible DP. 7.09e is the applicable rule and would only be enforced if it was OBVIOUS that a DELIBERATE attempt was made by the runner to prevent a DP.

(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.


If it was an infield-fly, the batter is already out, so even with obvious intent, you only call out the runner, which gives the DP.

And, yes, they screwed it up. The runner is out and the batter gets first. R3 stays at third, R1 is forced to second and R2 is out.

With only a couple of exceptions; the player who does the interfering is the one called out.

[Padday]

An interesting thing that happened during a game we played today. The situation is that there are two outs, two men on base and I believe the batter had two strikes (I don't really remember). The pitch is hit into the ground and dribbles slowly along the first baseline but stays fair. The batter and runners begin running but the umpire calls a foul ball. All the runners pause and then the umpire calls it fair. The runner on third comes home and the runner on second gets to third but the batter is out at first but only because the pitcher has time to get the ball and throw to first while the batter stops. He calls an out at first base but the run scores. Our coach then says to the umpire that the only reason he was out at first was because he stopped upon hearing the foul call. The umpire admits that he made a wrong decision on the foul ball and decides to have a redo. The batter on the next pitch hit a homerun.

I just want to know what the proper way of dealing with this situation would be.

[TonyK]

In a HS game a long foul ball is hit to LF with two outs and two runners on. The ball is almost caught by the LFer and it is ten feet out of play according to the ground rules. A coach hollers that it was a good thing the LFer didn't catch it.

Is there a rule about catching a ball out of play that I'm not aware of?

[Padday]

In a HS game a long foul ball is hit to LF with two outs and two runners on. The ball is almost caught by the LFer and it is ten feet out of play according to the ground rules. A coach hollers that it was a good thing the LFer didn't catch it.

Is there a rule about catching a ball out of play that I'm not aware of?

I'm assuming the coach just didn't know there were two outs and thought the sacrafice was on.

[bluezebra]

An interesting thing that happened during a game we played today. The situation is that there are two outs, two men on base and I believe the batter had two strikes (I don't really remember). The pitch is hit into the ground and dribbles slowly along the first baseline but stays fair. The batter and runners begin running but the umpire calls a foul ball. All the runners pause and then the umpire calls it fair. The runner on third comes home and the runner on second gets to third but the batter is out at first but only because the pitcher has time to get the ball and throw to first while the batter stops. He calls an out at first base but the run scores. Our coach then says to the umpire that the only reason he was out at first was because he stopped upon hearing the foul call. The umpire admits that he made a wrong decision on the foul ball and decides to have a redo. The batter on the next pitch hit a homerun.

I just want to know what the proper way of dealing with this situation would be.

1..FOUL BALL. That's all folks. ball is dead.
2..Bad mechanics. NEVER call a foul ball until something happens to make it a foul ball.
3..Never call "Fair ball". Only point fair.
4..Two outs, BR out at 1B, NO run(s) score(s).
5..Not a "redo". Just continue with a two strike count.
6..GET THIS CLOWN SOME TRAINING.

Bob

[bluezebra]

In a HS game a long foul ball is hit to LF with two outs and two runners on. The ball is almost caught by the LFer and it is ten feet out of play according to the ground rules. A coach hollers that it was a good thing the LFer didn't catch it.

Is there a rule about catching a ball out of play that I'm not aware of?

I don't what rules you are aware of, but a ball "caught" in Dead Ball Territory (DBT) is not a catch. Just a long noisy foul.

Bob

[jbooth]

An interesting thing that happened during a game we played today. The situation is that there are two outs, two men on base and I believe the batter had two strikes (I don't really remember). The pitch is hit into the ground and dribbles slowly along the first baseline but stays fair. The batter and runners begin running but the umpire calls a foul ball. All the runners pause and then the umpire calls it fair. The runner on third comes home and the runner on second gets to third but the batter is out at first but only because the pitcher has time to get the ball and throw to first while the batter stops. He calls an out at first base but the run scores. Our coach then says to the umpire that the only reason he was out at first was because he stopped upon hearing the foul call. The umpire admits that he made a wrong decision on the foul ball and decides to have a redo. The batter on the next pitch hit a homerun.

I just want to know what the proper way of dealing with this situation would be.

There is no rule that covers umpire incompetence. Once, he called it "Foul" and players reacted, tough luck, he has to live with his foul call. There is no way to undo the mistake, and there are no do-overs.

[TonyK]

I don't what rules you are aware of, but a ball "caught" in Dead Ball Territory (DBT) is not a catch. Just a long noisy foul.

Bob

That's what I thought but a parent said maybe the baserunners could tag up and take off. I doubt the ground rules allow that to happen.

[Ursa Major]

The batter and runners begin running but the umpire calls a foul ball. All the runners pause and then the umpire calls it fair. The runner on third comes home and the runner on second gets to third but the batter is out at first but only because the pitcher has time to get the ball and throw to first while the batter stops.Well, the one guy who gets credit in this situation is the pitcher, who continued with the play and let it get sorted out later.

We had a circumstance today in our favor that shows the importance of it. Our team was down by a run with two outs in the bottom of the last inning this afternoon, with runners on first and second. Our batter, a very slow runner, swings and misses on strike three, but the catcher drops it and it dribbles four feet to his left; he jumps on it as the batter is just starting to get out of the box. Here's the situation at that moment. http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/512AWKsaSm.jpg
Obviously, the catcher just needs to spin and throw to first and the ball game is over, right? But, the catcher's father is standing behind the backstop and thinks he knows the rules. He yells as the batter takes off, "No, no, he's out; there's a man on first." The catcher is confused and holds onto the ball even though the pitcher is screaming at him to throw to first base. No throw; all hands are safe. Why? Because there are two outs and the batter can run even though there is a runner at first base.

The pitcher is now flustered and walks in the tying run. He then grooves the first pitch to the next hitter, who hits a single, and the winning run comes in.

The lesson? Play out the d**n play and don't worry about being "right". And Dad's shouldn't be behind backstops giving advice. By the way, this particular dad and his son's manager loathe each other; I wonder what this will do to their relationship?

[Padday]

Well, the one guy who gets credit in this situation is the pitcher, who continued with the play and let it get sorted out later.
The difference with the play in my situation was that everyone knew that the call was foul because the ump had called it. If your running down the first base line and you hear the foul call your going to stop and head back to the plate for the next pitch rather than waste your energy by continuing to go full speed to the base. It just so happenned that in this situation the pitcher continued to go get the ball even after the call just for the sake of retrieving the dead ball. Then when the call was fair again all he had to do was toss it to first while the batter was still trying to rap his head around what had just happened.

[Macker]

What would you do with this one? -- (A true story.)

Freshman high school game. My team is batting. Runner on third with one out. Batter strikes out for second out. It was a third-strike swing at a ball in the dirt. The catcher makes the scoop, tags the batter for the second out and starts running toward the first base dugout. After a couple of steps, he turns back and lobs the ball into the air toward the home plate umpire.

Runner on third knows there are only two outs, and he realizes he has a chance to score, so he bolts for home. Since the pitch had been in the dirt, the pitcher had alertly broken for the plate in case the ball got away. So we have runner & pitcher headed for the plate.

The umpire, seeing a ball drifting toward him, reaches up and catches the ball. Then he realizes a play is going on, so he flings the ball out to the pitcher as if getting rid of a hot potato. The runner would have easily scored, but now the pitcher has the ball and the pitcher is a bit closer to the plate. Runner freezes. Runner & pitcher look at each other, apparently not sure whether their next action will even count. Pitcher takes a step toward runner, but then he stops when the runner puts up his hands and shrugs. The runner slowly turns around and jogs back toward third.

The pitcher looks at the runner for a moment, then turns and starts walking toward the mound, apparently figuring it was fair that the runner would return and he'd get the next guy.

The coach yells, "Tag him!" so now the runner gets in a ridiculously long rundown. I'd have to dig out the score book, but I it was about 9 throws, which added to the hilarity of the umpire getting involved in the play. It ends with the runner sliding into the plate with the umpire booming, "Yer out!!!"

Now this is only a Freshman game in which nobody is playing toward a state title or anything, so I'm not going to make a big fuss about this. I knew the umpire fairly well, and I had to bust his chops a little bit. I wasn't going to make a scene, but I was dying to ask him what the heck he was doing getting himself an assist on the play.

While both having a hard time keeping a straight face, the talk went like this:

Me: What are you doing throwing the ball to the pitcher?
Ump: I don't know. He just threw the ball to me, so I caught it?
Me: Why didn't you step out of the way?
Ump: The kid [catcher] started running off. I was thinking there were only two out, but when he started off I had to think for a minute. Next thing you know the ball is coming at me, so I caught it.
Me: But why did you throw it to the pitcher? Why not just drop it?
Ump: I don't know. I just figured I had to get rid of it, and he was the closest guy.
Me: Why didn't you just tag the guy yourself and save my guy from running a mile in that relay?

We both laugh and the game went on.

Again, it was a low-level game with no title hopes on the line. But if it were a 'real' game, what should the ump have done?
Does he call play to a halt due to his interference?
Once having caught the ball, could he simply drop it and let play continue?
Since the umpire aided the defense, should the runner's run have counted had he been safe?

[Jake Patterson]

Since the umpire aided the defense, should the runner's run have counted had he been safe?

Another question is since the umpire aided the play should the runner have been out? A ball caught in catcher's equipment or umpire's equipment is a dead ball... could this be considered the same thing??

[jbooth]

What would you do with this one? -- (A true story.)

Freshman high school game. My team is batting. Runner on third with one out. Batter strikes out for second out. It was a third-strike swing at a ball in the dirt. The catcher makes the scoop, tags the batter for the second out and starts running toward the first base dugout. After a couple of steps, he turns back and lobs the ball into the air toward the home plate umpire.

Runner on third knows there are only two outs, and he realizes he has a chance to score, so he bolts for home. Since the pitch had been in the dirt, the pitcher had alertly broken for the plate in case the ball got away. So we have runner & pitcher headed for the plate.

The umpire, seeing a ball drifting toward him, reaches up and catches the ball. Then he realizes a play is going on, so he flings the ball out to the pitcher as if getting rid of a hot potato. The runner would have easily scored, but now the pitcher has the ball and the pitcher is a bit closer to the plate. Runner freezes. Runner & pitcher look at each other, apparently not sure whether their next action will even count. Pitcher takes a step toward runner, but then he stops when the runner puts up his hands and shrugs. The runner slowly turns around and jogs back toward third.

The pitcher looks at the runner for a moment, then turns and starts walking toward the mound, apparently figuring it was fair that the runner would return and he'd get the next guy.

The coach yells, "Tag him!" so now the runner gets in a ridiculously long rundown. I'd have to dig out the score book, but I it was about 9 throws, which added to the hilarity of the umpire getting involved in the play. It ends with the runner sliding into the plate with the umpire booming, "Yer out!!!"

Now this is only a Freshman game in which nobody is playing toward a state title or anything, so I'm not going to make a big fuss about this. I knew the umpire fairly well, and I had to bust his chops a little bit. I wasn't going to make a scene, but I was dying to ask him what the heck he was doing getting himself an assist on the play.

While both having a hard time keeping a straight face, the talk went like this:

Me: What are you doing throwing the ball to the pitcher?
Ump: I don't know. He just threw the ball to me, so I caught it?
Me: Why didn't you step out of the way?
Ump: The kid [catcher] started running off. I was thinking there were only two out, but when he started off I had to think for a minute. Next thing you know the ball is coming at me, so I caught it.
Me: But why did you throw it to the pitcher? Why not just drop it?
Ump: I don't know. I just figured I had to get rid of it, and he was the closest guy.
Me: Why didn't you just tag the guy yourself and save my guy from running a mile in that relay?

We both laugh and the game went on.

Again, it was a low-level game with no title hopes on the line. But if it were a 'real' game, what should the ump have done?
Does he call play to a halt due to his interference?
Once having caught the ball, could he simply drop it and let play continue?
Since the umpire aided the defense, should the runner's run have counted had he been safe?

If the umpire actually takes possession of the ball, he must call it dead. If he just touched it and let it drop, it would be the same as an errant throw hitting him, and the ball would be live, but if he holds it and then drops it, he should call dead ball, and not let any runners advance beyond the base last legally held.

[jbooth]

Another question is since the umpire aided the play should the runner have been out? A ball caught in catcher's equipment or umpire's equipment is a dead ball... could this be considered the same thing??

If the umpire actually holds the ball in his possession, then yes, it is the same as if it lodged in his equipment. Some judgment is needed, if he holds if for a fraction of a second and drops it, you MIGHT leave the ball live, but if he holds if for more than a second and/or holds it and then by dropping it changes the direction/location of where it was going, he should rule as if it got lodged in his equipment.

[bluezebra]

That's what I thought but a parent said maybe the baserunners could tag up and take off. I doubt the ground rules allow that to happen.

Parents are even less rules-knowledgable than coaches. The runners CAN tag up and run. But all that does is give them some exercise.

Ground rules have no bearing here. It's a BOOK RULE. A fly ball "caught" in dead ball territory (DBT) is not a catch. It's just a dead ball foul.

Bob

[bluezebra]

If the umpire actually holds the ball in his possession, then yes, it is the same as if it lodged in his equipment. Some judgment is needed, if he holds if for a fraction of a second and drops it, you MIGHT leave the ball live, but if he holds if for more than a second and/or holds it and then by dropping it changes the direction/location of where it was going, he should rule as if it got lodged in his equipment.

Jim:

I wouldn't consider this a lodged ball. The ump goofed by catching the ball, and then tossing it to the pitcher. As soon as he held the ball, even momentarily, it's dead. Now he has the obligation to correct any mistake (the catch) on his part that puts one team at a disadvantage.

Put R3 back on 3B.

Bob

[Macker]

But what if the runner had kept running, dove to the plate and beat the tag? If he beat the play even with the umpire aiding the defense, surely he would have beat the play without the umpire's aid. Would he be wrong to call the runner safe? Or is this a play where the ump can't assume what would have happened. (For all we know, the runner might have slipped and fell down short of the plate, for example.)

[jbooth]

Jim:

I wouldn't consider this a lodged ball. The ump goofed by catching the ball, and then tossing it to the pitcher. As soon as he held the ball, even momentarily, it's dead. Now he has the obligation to correct any mistake (the catch) on his part that puts one team at a disadvantage.

Put R3 back on 3B.

Bob

Well, there isn't any rule that covers this, so 9.01c would be used. Therefore, you could rule as you stated, or treat it as a lodged ball. It would depend on the circumstances of how the ball got in the ump's hands, and/or what he did with the ball.

[aquasox9]

runners on 1st and 2nd. 1st baseman is playing behind runner leading off 1st pitcher turns and throws to 1st baseman who tags runner on 1st out or is this a balk?

[Postblank]

runners on 1st and 2nd. 1st baseman is playing behind runner leading off 1st pitcher turns and throws to 1st baseman who tags runner on 1st out or is this a balk?

I'm not an umpire, but that doesn't sound like a balk. It does however sound nonsensical for someone trying to get out of a jam for many reasons.

I'm guessing this was a question from experience?

[aquasox9]

no the kid was just asleep on the bases my catcher called the pick off and the other coach was mad. Said it was a balk, but my pitcher stepped off the rubber and threw to 1st for the out.

[jbooth]

runners on 1st and 2nd. 1st baseman is playing behind runner leading off 1st pitcher turns and throws to 1st baseman who tags runner on 1st out or is this a balk?

If the first baseman is not near enough to the runner or base, that he could catch a throw and make a tag attempt, then it is a balk. It is considered a fake to first base, which is a balk per 8.05b. If the first baseman breaks for the base and the throw goes to the base it is NOT a balk. If the first baseman is not near the base or runner, and the ball is thrown to the first baseman, it IS a balk.

Here is some clarification from the MLB Umpire Manual;

REGULATIONS:
(a) The pitcher shall be charged with a balk if, while in contact with the rubber, he throws to the first baseman who is either in front of or behind first base and obviously not making an attempt at retiring the runner at first base. However, there is no violation if the pitcher throws the ball directly to first base in this situation. Also note that there is no violation if the pitcher attempts a pickoff at second or third and throws to an infielder who is in front of or behind either of those bases (i.e., this violation is only in reference to pick-offs at first base). Also see next paragraph in this section.

(b) There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

[bluezebra]

If the first baseman is not near enough to the runner or base, that he could catch a throw and make a tag attempt, then it is a balk. It is considered a fake to first base, which is a balk per 8.05b. If the first baseman breaks for the base and the throw goes to the base it is NOT a balk. If the first baseman is not near the base or runner, and the ball is thrown to the first baseman, it IS a balk.

Here is some clarification from the MLB Umpire Manual;

REGULATIONS:
(a) The pitcher shall be charged with a balk if, while in contact with the rubber, he throws to the first baseman who is either in front of or behind first base and obviously not making an attempt at retiring the runner at first base. However, there is no violation if the pitcher throws the ball directly to first base in this situation. Also note that there is no violation if the pitcher attempts a pickoff at second or third and throws to an infielder who is in front of or behind either of those bases (i.e., this violation is only in reference to pick-offs at first base). Also see next paragraph in this section.

(b) There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.


The pitcher STEPPED OFF the rubber, and therefore became an infielder. NO BALK.

Bob

[bluezebra]

But what if the runner had kept running, dove to the plate and beat the tag? If he beat the play even with the umpire aiding the defense, surely he would have beat the play without the umpire's aid. Would he be wrong to call the runner safe? Or is this a play where the ump can't assume what would have happened. (For all we know, the runner might have slipped and fell down short of the plate, for example.)

The umpire should have IMMEDIATELY called TIME as soon as he held the ball. No further action. Then he decides how to rectify his mistake.

Bob

[Postblank]

(b) There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.
[/I]

Could this apply to a center fielder if he was breaking towards second? We did that a few times in Little League years ago and they let it fly.

[jbooth]

The pitcher STEPPED OFF the rubber, and therefore became an infielder. NO BALK.

Bob

I answered his first post where all he said was "the pitcher turns and throws."

In his reply to someone else he then said the pitcher stepped off. So, which is it?

If he turned and threw, it's a balk. If he stepped off, you are correct, it is NOT a balk.

[bluezebra]

Could this apply to a center fielder if he was breaking towards second? We did that a few times in Little League years ago and they let it fly.

In my opinion, that is throwing to a fielder attempting to make a play on a runner.

If your situation was in Majors or below, why make a play? Runners may not lead-off before the pitch reaches the batter.

Bob

[TonyK]

An umpire is in his late 70's and is the local legend despite failing eyesight and lots of questionable calls through the years. He is asked to umpire solo at a HS JV game between two rival schools. He handles it well until midway through the game. He tries to make calls on the bases while standing a few feet from home plate. He blew a few because he was standing too far away. Parents and coaches holler at him louder and louder. His strike zone includes ABOVE the letters and BELOW the knees all game long.

The result is the visiting team's coach is restricted by the ump to his bench and his team loses it's composure on the field and begins to make poor plays. The ump played too much of a part in the outcome.

My feeling is another umpire should have been located (rainouts caused an overbooked week). How would you as an umpire or official handle this type of situation knowing the schools rivalry history and this umpire's record? Would you change the starting time from 4 p.m to 5 p.m. or later so a second umpire can get there?

[bluezebra]

An umpire is in his late 70's and is the local legend despite failing eyesight and lots of questionable calls through the years. He is asked to umpire solo at a HS JV game between two rival schools. He handles it well until midway through the game. He tries to make calls on the bases while standing a few feet from home plate. He blew a few because he was standing too far away. Parents and coaches holler at him louder and louder. His strike zone includes ABOVE the letters and BELOW the knees all game long.

The result is the visiting team's coach is restricted by the ump to his bench and his team loses it's composure on the field and begins to make poor plays. The ump played too much of a part in the outcome.

My feeling is another umpire should have been located (rainouts caused an overbooked week). How would you as an umpire or official handle this type of situation knowing the schools rivalry history and this umpire's record? Would you change the starting time from 4 p.m to 5 p.m. or later so a second umpire can get there?

Umpires and officials have no authority to change game times. That's up to the schools and the league involved. There is no guarantee that a later game time would free-up another umpire. The second umpire's original game may be an extra-inning game, or unusually long.

If what you say regarding this particular umpire is true, he should not be out there. He should have retired, or his association should have not given him any assignments. When my legs kept me from hustling as well as I should, I hung it up. I had too much respect for myself, the game, the schools, and most importantly the players, to continue at less than 100%.

Bob

[Postblank]

In my opinion, that is throwing to a fielder attempting to make a play on a runner.

If your situation was in Majors or below, why make a play? Runners may not lead-off before the pitch reaches the batter.

Bob
Whoops, I forgot that wasn't a pickoff move. It was a throwdown.

[bbjunkie]

Situation: HS game. Batter hits clean double, but misses 1st base on way to 2nd. If ump sees it, what's the call? As I read the rules (OBR) this can't be appealed. If ball is still live and is thrown to F3 who tags base, is runner out? Once ball is dead, is runner safe at 2nd?

[jbooth]

Situation: HS game. Batter hits clean double, but misses 1st base on way to 2nd. If ump sees it, what's the call? As I read the rules (OBR) this can't be appealed. If ball is still live and is thrown to F3 who tags base, is runner out? Once ball is dead, is runner safe at 2nd?

While the ball is live, the defense simply may, with the ball, either touch the runner standing on second and say, "blue he didn't touch first", or while holding the ball, touch first base, and say, "blue he didn't touch first."

if somebody called time, then the pitcher must get on the rubber with the ball and wait for the ump to say, "play" and then do what I stated above.

I don't have the latest HS rule book, but I think in FED rules you can even do the above while the ball is dead. But, what I said will work also. Several years ago, in FED rules the ump just called an out if he saw it, but now an appeal must be made by the defense.

In regular baseball, (not High School FED rules), the rule is;

7.10
Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when --
(b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

[bluezebra]

Situation: HS game. Batter hits clean double, but misses 1st base on way to 2nd. If ump sees it, what's the call? As I read the rules (OBR) this can't be appealed. If ball is still live and is thrown to F3 who tags base, is runner out? Once ball is dead, is runner safe at 2nd?

Where in OBR did you read this may not be appealed?
FED: 8.2.3.PENALTY..Either live or dead ball appeal may be made.

Bob

[bbjunkie]

Where in OBR did you read this may not be appealed?
FED: 8.2.3.PENALTY..Either live or dead ball appeal may be made.

Bob

I got so caught up in the subsections of 7.10 that I missed the first line stating "Any runner shall be called out, on appeal when-

However, it still seems to be a bit of semantics. If the ball is still live, is it an appeal or just a play? And, once the ball is dead the runner can't go back. Can it still be appealed?

[jbooth]

I got so caught up in the subsections of 7.10 that I missed the first line stating "Any runner shall be called out, on appeal when-

However, it still seems to be a bit of semantics. If the ball is still live, is it an appeal or just a play? And, once the ball is dead the runner can't go back. Can it still be appealed?

Read my answer to you again. Slowly and carefully this time.:ughh

[TonyK]

Umpires and officials have no authority to change game times. That's up to the schools and the league involved. There is no guarantee that a later game time would free-up another umpire. The second umpire's original game may be an extra-inning game, or unusually long.

If what you say regarding this particular umpire is true, he should not be out there. He should have retired, or his association should have not given him any assignments. When my legs kept me from hustling as well as I should, I hung it up. I had too much respect for myself, the game, the schools, and most importantly the players, to continue at less than 100%.

Bob

Good points Bob. We will see this ump again in either HS games next week or Babe Ruth games in the summer. He's a great guy until he makes a few calls against your team. It's surprising to me his knack for riling up the coaches and parents of teams year after year. I think he still umpires because they haven't enough umps to go around.

To me it's just a game and ten years from now nobody will even remember what the dispute was about.

Semper Fi.

[bluezebra]

I got so caught up in the subsections of 7.10 that I missed the first line stating "Any runner shall be called out, on appeal when-

However, it still seems to be a bit of semantics. If the ball is still live, is it an appeal or just a play? And, once the ball is dead the runner can't go back. Can it still be appealed?

An APPEAL is an APPEAL is an APPEAL. As long as the defense says "Blue, the batter runner missed first" (or words to that effect). And then do what the rule book requires for a proper appeal.

Bob

[TonyStarks]

Not sure if this goes here...feel free to move.


If a runner is on 2nd and is attempting to steal 3rd....if the Batter stays in the box and gives his back to the catcher and inadvertently hinders the catcher from getting a good look to 3rd for his throw....is this considered interference on the batter? Does the batter have to move out of the way or duck?

If it does, can I get a link to these rules?


Thank you.

[Jake Patterson]

Not sure if this goes here...feel free to move.


If a runner is on 2nd and is attempting to steal 3rd....if the Batter stays in the box and gives his back to the catcher and inadvertently hinders the catcher from getting a good look to 3rd for his throw....is this considered interference on the batter? Does the batter have to move out of the way or duck?

If it does, can I get a link to these rules?


Thank you.

Tony,
I'm going to move this to Ask the Ump....
I believe this is not interference as long as the batter does nothing to intentionally hinder the throw.

[mattymadore]

What is the official ruling on this situation.

Runner on 3rd, 1 out. Batter hits pop fly into foul territory in Left Field. The fielder gets a hand on the ball but does not gain control of the ball until he has stepped into out of play territory. Is the batter out, and does the runner get to advance since the ball was carried out of play?

Thank you,
Matt

[jbooth]

Not sure if this goes here...feel free to move.


If a runner is on 2nd and is attempting to steal 3rd....if the Batter stays in the box and gives his back to the catcher and inadvertently hinders the catcher from getting a good look to 3rd for his throw....is this considered interference on the batter? Does the batter have to move out of the way or duck?

If it does, can I get a link to these rules?


Thank you.

Two different rules apply to the batter when a play is being made near the plate.
1. is 6.06c which applies to when the catcher catches a pitch and then immediately attempts a throw to get a runner, or make a tag at the plate on a squeeze or steal.
2. Is 7.11 whaich applies when the ball is missed and gets out of the catcher's reach and he must chase after it.

In 1, the batter is supposed to stay in the box and not make any unusual movements to intentionally interfere. If he steps out of the box AND interferes, he is out.

In 2, the batter must vacate the box and all space needed for any fielder to make a play.

Here's an excerpt from the Jim Evans interp on 6.06(c) that may help to clarify:

A batter shall not be charged with interference for standing still and consequently complicating the catcher's play at any base. If he is within the confines of the batter's box, he must make some "other movement" that is deemed a hindrance to the catcher's play before interference is ruled.

In case you don't know, Jim Evans was an MLB umpire for 18 years, and runs one of the pro umpire schools.

Here is the text of 6.06c;

I bolded important points;

6.06
A batter is out for illegal action when --

(c) He interferes with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter’s box OR making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base. EXCEPTION: Batter is not out if any runner attempting to advance is put out, or if runner trying to score is called out for batter’s interference.
Rule 6.06(c) Comment: If the batter interferes with the catcher, the plate umpire shall call “interference.” The batter is out and the ball dead. No player may advance on such interference (offensive interference) and all runners must return to the last base that was, in the judgment of the umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference.
If, however, the catcher makes a play and the runner attempting to advance is put out, it is to be assumed there was no actual interference and that runner is out—not the batter. Any other runners on the base at the time may advance as the ruling is that there is no actual interference if a runner is retired. In that case play proceeds just as if no violation had been called.
If a batter strikes at a ball and misses and swings so hard he carries the bat all the way around and, in the umpire’s judgment, unintentionally hits the catcher or the ball in back of him on the backswing before the catcher has securely held the ball, it shall be called a strike only (not interference). The ball will be dead, however, and no runner shall advance on the play.

Here is the rule for when the pitch is missed by the catcher and is loose;

7.11
The players, coaches or any member of an offensive team shall vacate any space (including both dugouts) needed by a fielder who is attempting to field a batted or thrown ball.
PENALTY: Interference shall be called and the batter or runner on whom the play is being made shall be declared out.

[jbooth]

What is the official ruling on this situation.

Runner on 3rd, 1 out. Batter hits pop fly into foul territory in Left Field. The fielder gets a hand on the ball but does not gain control of the ball until he has stepped into out of play territory. Is the batter out, and does the runner get to advance since the ball was carried out of play?

Thank you,
Matt

This is not a legal catch, you must gain possession before you go out of play.

This is just a foul ball. Runners only advance on fair balls that are deflected out of play, or on legal catches that are carried out of play.

[mateogormano]

An out does not actually have to be recorded to have a Fielder's Choice. If the third baseman in the play in question had made the attempt to second base, then the batter would not be awarded a base hit, regardless of whether or not the man at second was put out. In the situation in question we can't have a fielder's choice, as bbjunkie said, but there does not have to be an out recorded for a fielder's choice to be in effect.

[hawkiirock]

Has to be a FC IMO. SHouldnt be a hit b/c it wouldnt have been a hit had there been no other player on base

[TG Coach]

I am a mom of a 13u travel ball and school ball baseball player and I am the official scorer for the teams and I use Scorepad on my Palm Pilot. I have a question though that my husband and I seem to keep going back and forth on: If a runner is on first and batter hits the ball to the third baseman and the third baseman doesn't bobble the ball but he takes a look at second and runner is already there so he just doesn't make a throw to any base and all runners are safe. Does the runner on first get scored with a Fielders Choice?? I would say no, because I have read somewhere that unless an out is made on the play then it cannot be scored as a fielders choice...can someone out there help me out?????

An out doesn't have to be recorded to have a fielder's choice. If the third baseman had an opportunity to throw out the runner at first had he not taken the time to check second, it's a fielder's choice even if he didn't make a throw. The only way it's a hit is if the scorer determines the third baseman had no chance to throw out the hitter from the start.

[hiddengem]

I think this all depends on the type of hit it was to the third baseman. Was it a routine play where an easy out could have been recorded at first? Was it a high chopper to his back hand where it would have been a tough play at first?

This situation is in the hands of the scorekeeper. If he thinks the batter runner might have been safe anyways, give it a hit. If he thinks he would have been easily out had he not even looked at second, score it a fielders choice.

[wogdoggy]

man on second...our pitcher from the set rotates his body much like dontrell willis but rotates his shoulders almost square with the plate..his nameplate can be seen by the batter...this of course causes the second base runner to almost break back to second on almost every pitch.the ump calls balk because he can see his name plate on the back of his jersey..balk or not?

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Hello rules aficionados.

Don't know if you saw the Jays-Yankees game tonight, but I have a question regarding something that happened during the game.

With runners on 1st and 3rd, 2 out, someone (Posada I think) pops it up just to the left of third base (towards SS). As the Jays third baseman settles under it, A-Rod is running behind him (since there are 2 outs the runners are going, and he was on 1B to begin with). As the ball is coming down, A-Rod yells "I got it" to the third baseman, pretending to be the SS. The third baseman backs off and the ball drops.

Is there a rule that covers this? Could you apply the "travesty of the game" rule here?

[jbooth]

Hello rules aficionados.

Don't know if you saw the Jays-Yankees game tonight, but I have a question regarding something that happened during the game.

With runners on 1st and 3rd, 2 out, someone (Posada I think) pops it up just to the left of third base (towards SS). As the Jays third baseman settles under it, A-Rod is running behind him (since there are 2 outs the runners are going, and he was on 1B to begin with). As the ball is coming down, A-Rod yells "I got it" to the third baseman, pretending to be the SS. The third baseman backs off and the ball drops.

Is there a rule that covers this? Could you apply the "travesty of the game" rule here?

No, the rule that covers it is interference. However, in the pro game, verbal statements are not usually penalized. In high-school and other amateur, or youth games, verbal interference can be penalized.

INTERFERENCE
(a) Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play.

This, IMO, "hinders or confuses" the fielder, but for some reason, MLB does not judge it that way, and interference is a judgment call.

[jbooth]

man on second...our pitcher from the set rotates his body much like dontrell willis but rotates his shoulders almost square with the plate..his nameplate can be seen by the batter...this of course causes the second base runner to almost break back to second on almost every pitch.the ump calls balk because he can see his name plate on the back of his jersey..balk or not?

A balk is a judgment call.

Balk, by dictionary definition, means to pause, halt or interrupt.

A pitcher can start one of three actions;

1. Pitch
2. Pick-off/fake
3. Disengage

Whichever of the 3 that he starts, he must finish. The umpire must judge what he started and whether he completed it, or if he switched it to something else. You can't start one action and then do another.

So, in your situation, the umpire must judge what his normal pitching motion is, and then judge whether he changed it, or he must judge whether the move was part of the pitching motion, or was the start of a pick off.

I can't give you an answer without having been there to see what this pitcher does, and/or what he did on this play.

[mike28nc]

Have a balk questions.

1st R pitcher steps off the rubber and spins to 1st base but does not throw. Is that a balk? I was under the impression that it was nothing. But we have been running against Umps that call that balk. He told the pitcher he has to throw it to 1st.


2nd question:

L pitcher brings his lead foot past his plant foot. Meaning past the rubber or over the rubber. I was under the impression that he has to throw to the catcher and can not throw to 1st base. Am I correct.

tks in advance.


Mike

[jbooth]

Have a balk questions.

1st R pitcher steps off the rubber and spins to 1st base but does not throw. Is that a balk? I was under the impression that it was nothing. But we have been running against Umps that call that balk. He told the pitcher he has to throw it to 1st.


2nd question:

L pitcher brings his lead foot past his plant foot. Meaning past the rubber or over the rubber. I was under the impression that he has to throw to the catcher and can not throw to 1st base. Am I correct.

tks in advance.


Mike

The pitcher must throw to first (cannot fake) IF he is on the rubber. If he steps off the rubber legally, then he is no longer the pitcher, and may fake to first. The pitcher may fake to second or third, but not first. When you step off, you aren't the pitcher, so you can do whatever you wish. To legally step off the rubber and no longer be the pitcher; you must move your pivot foot BEHIND (second base side) the rubber, before making any other movements.

Second question. Yes, if his FOOT goes behind the rubber, he must pitch or continue around for a fake or throw to second (if there is a runner on second.)

[Mattingly]

Can someone here please reply to this thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=62458) in our Amateur forum about umpiring?

Many thanks. ;)

[Old Timer]

My son wears the Nike interchangeable shoes, of course he wears the "plastic" cleats. I was told that in tournament play he may not be able to wear them as some umpires would consider the metal screw in violation to the rules. Has anyone experienced an umpire making a kid change shoes due to the metal screw?

[bluezebra]

So if a runner misses a base and scores, if an ump caught this, does he tell the batter that he's done this? Does he also tell the opposing players or their manager about this, so that the player can run back to touch the base and the fielders try to get him out?

One more question about base-running. If a guy is on 1B, but he drives the winning run on a hit, if the batter is about to tag 3B but the winning run scores just a moment ahead of this, is the batter still credited with a triple or just a double? Or does this depend upon whether or not a play was being made for home?

Oh yeah, I do hope that everyone here's having fun with this topic. :)

1..NO, NO, No. It's up to the players, managers and coaches to know what happened.

2..On a game-ending hit, the batter-runner is credited with the amount of bases it takes to drive-in the winning run. Since the batter -runner didn't reach 3B when the winning run scored, he's credited with a double, play at home or not.

3..You have a warped idea of fun. You're my kind of people.

Bob

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Just a personal question for umpires out there, how strongly do you feel about calling balks for: catcher being out of the catchers box while the pitcher is pitching, and for the catcher giving the signs while the pitcher is off the rubber?

Thanks.
-G

[Macker]

2..On a game-ending hit, the batter-runner is credited with the amount of bases it takes to drive-in the winning run. Since the batter -runner didn't reach 3B when the winning run scored, he's credited with a double, play at home or not.

They don't bother doing it, but the batter-runner gets a triple if he runs three bases with the winning run scoring from first. It has no bearing whether the run crossed the plate before the runner touches third. For example, runner on second, batter hits a gapper. The batter gets a double if he runs to second, and it doesn't matter whether the run scores before the batter touches second.

[jbooth]

Just a personal question for umpires out there, how strongly do you feel about calling balks for: catcher being out of the catchers box while the pitcher is pitching, and for the catcher giving the signs while the pitcher is off the rubber?

Thanks.
-G

Nobody ever calls a balk for the catcher being out of his box, unless it is ridiculously obvious and is giving him some sort of advantage on a particular play.

Your second part is never called because it is NOT a balk, by any rule, when the pitcher takes signs while off the rubber. There is no penalty at all for that, UNLESS, the pitcher takes the signs while off the rubber and then quickly steps on the rubber and throws a "QUICK PITCH." A quick pitch is an illegal pitch, and is a balk if runners are on base. If the pitcher takes his signs while off the rubber, the ump simply tells him to stop doing that, and take the signs from the rubber.

[callyjr]

foul tip with less then 2 strikes, it has to go over catchers head or the hitters head to be a caught out?

Cally

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Nobody ever calls a balk for the catcher being out of his box, unless it is ridiculously obvious and is giving him some sort of advantage on a particular play.

Your second part is never called because it is NOT a balk, by any rule, when the pitcher takes signs while off the rubber. There is no penalty at all for that, UNLESS, the pitcher takes the signs while off the rubber and then quickly steps on the rubber and throws a "QUICK PITCH." A quick pitch is an illegal pitch, and is a balk if runners are on base. If the pitcher takes his signs while off the rubber, the ump simply tells him to stop doing that, and take the signs from the rubber.Thanks for clearing that up. I've been staying in the box lately, and it's cost my team a couple times when the pitch was too close to the zone on 0-2 and the hitter got a good pitch to hit. I won't worry about moving out of the box anymore.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Another question: For those of you not farmiliar with teh Eephus pitch, it is a high-arking pitch similar to a slo-pitch pitch: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=45409.

A question is raised near the end of the thread about how an umpire would call an eephus that would arc very high and pass vertically through the strike zone, landing on home plate. According to the rules, it should be a strike (I think), since it passes through the zone. But would any umpire call it as such?

[jbooth]

foul tip with less then 2 strikes, it has to go over catchers head or the hitters head to be a caught out?

Cally

That's a rule myth. The catcher and/or batter's head have nothing to do with the rule.

It's a judgment by the umpire as to whether or not the ball went "sharp and direct" from the bat to the catcher. If it is judged as "sharp and direct" and it is caught, it is a strike. If it goes up in the air in a manner that the ump judges NOT to be "sharp and direct" then it is a fly ball, and if caught, it is an out, not a strike.

Rule 2.00

A FLY BALL is a batted ball that goes high in the air in flight.

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand.

[jbooth]

Thanks for clearing that up. I've been staying in the box lately, and it's cost my team a couple times when the pitch was too close to the zone on 0-2 and the hitter got a good pitch to hit. I won't worry about moving out of the box anymore.

3 years ago MLB umps were told to keep the catcher in the box. They don't call a balk if the catcher strays out, they just tell him to get in the box. They aren't too picky, they let them stray a bit, but not as much as they did 4+ years ago.

[callyjr]

That's a rule myth. The catcher and/or batter's head have nothing to do with the rule.

It's a judgment by the umpire as to whether or not the ball went "sharp and direct" from the bat to the catcher. If it is judged as "sharp and direct" and it is caught, it is a strike. If it goes up in the air in a manner that the ump judges NOT to be "sharp and direct" then it is a fly ball, and if caught, it is an out, not a strike.

Rule 2.00

A FLY BALL is a batted ball that goes high in the air in flight.

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand.


thank you,

How would you have ruled this? It was the 3rd strike, but lets say it wasn't.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/gabe%20catching%20ball%20as%20catcher.mov

[JimEdRice]

Here is the situation, runner on first, less than 2 outs. Batter hits a grounder to 1st or 2nd baseman. Fielder comes up with the ball and attempts to tag runner going from first to second. Runner backs up to avoid the tag and negate the chance of a double play. Is the runner out for backing up?

[oaklandman666]

I wouldn't think so. Not real sure though...

[paul5150]

he's not out, unless he goes out of the baseline, which he is not

[JimEdRice]

But by that token, wouldn't be out of his baseline, he only has forward to go and he has reversed, seeing that the batter now has the right to first base. Would this become a judgement call on the part of the umpire?

[bluezebra]

Just a personal question for umpires out there, how strongly do you feel about calling balks for: catcher being out of the catchers box while the pitcher is pitching, and for the catcher giving the signs while the pitcher is off the rubber?

Thanks.
-G

1..In 44 years, called it ONCE. It was so blatant, I had no choice.

2..As long as the catcher gives, or simulates giving, a sign while the pitcher is on the rubber, no problem.

Bob

[bluezebra]

Another question: For those of you not farmiliar with teh Eephus pitch, it is a high-arking pitch similar to a slo-pitch pitch: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=45409.

A question is raised near the end of the thread about how an umpire would call an eephus that would arc very high and pass vertically through the strike zone, landing on home plate. According to the rules, it should be a strike (I think), since it passes through the zone. But would any umpire call it as such?

If a pitch hits home plate, even if it passed through the strike zone, it can NEVER be a strike. Unless it were struck at.

In some slow pitch softball rules, it WOULD be a strike.

Bob

[bluezebra]

he's not out, unless he goes out of the baseline, which he is not

Not baseline. BASE PATH.

Bob

[bluezebra]

But by that token, wouldn't be out of his baseline, he only has forward to go and he has reversed, seeing that the batter now has the right to first base. Would this become a judgement call on the part of the umpire?

NOT baseline. It's BASE PATH. No judgement involved. It's LEGAL. Why not just toss the ball to 2B to get the force out?

Haven't you people ever seen rundowns in a game? Ever see a runner called out for reversing directions, unless he went out of his BASE PATH to avoid the tag?

Bob

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

If a pitch hits home plate, even if it passed through the strike zone, it can NEVER be a strike. Unless it were struck at.I couldn't find a rule to back that up. Is there one, or is this just a general consensus among umpires?

[jbooth]

thank you,

How would you have ruled this? It was the 3rd strike, but lets say it wasn't.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/gabe%20catching%20ball%20as%20catcher.mov

Wow, that's kind of a "borderline" one. I think you could call it either way, but my instinct is saying it isn't "sharp and direct." I'd probably have to call that a caught fly, for an out.

[jbooth]

Here is the situation, runner on first, less than 2 outs. Batter hits a grounder to 1st or 2nd baseman. Fielder comes up with the ball and attempts to tag runner going from first to second. Runner backs up to avoid the tag and negate the chance of a double play. Is the runner out for backing up?

Nope, that's smart baserunning. He is only out if runs more than 3 feet to either side of a line between himself and a base, to avoid a tag.

7.08
Any runner is out when --
(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely;

In your play, he is forced to advance so, he is out when he, or second base is touched.

7.08 (e) He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

[jbooth]

But by that token, wouldn't be out of his baseline, he only has forward to go and he has reversed, seeing that the batter now has the right to first base. Would this become a judgement call on the part of the umpire?

He's going to be out unless the defense screws up because he is forced to go to second, but he isn't out until HE or second base is tagged. He's not out for going out of the basepath, unless he goes out of the basepath. Running forward or backward on the bases is legal.

7.08
Any runner is out when --
(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely;

In this play, he is forced to advance so, he is out when he, or second base is touched.

7.08 (e) He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

[jbooth]

I couldn't find a rule to back that up. Is there one, or is this just a general consensus among umpires?

The ball hitting the plate is irrelevant. It's a strike if, in the umpire's judgment, the ball passed through the strike zone; which is ANY space above home plate, that is between the bottom of the knees and the midpoint between the shoulders and he belt.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

So it's just generally not called a strike if it hits the plate, even though it may actually qualify as such?

[jbooth]

If a pitch hits home plate, even if it passed through the strike zone, it can NEVER be a strike. Unless it were struck at.

Bob

Uh, where did you come up with that?

The STRIKE ZONE is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the knee cap. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter's stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball.

A STRIKE is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire, which --

(b) Is not struck at, if any part of the ball passes through any part of the strike zone;

A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at by the batter.



The strike zone is a 5 sided box, suspended in the air between the knees and the armpits. If the ball touches any side of that box, it's a strike. The ball could come sharply down through the bottom-front part of the box and hit the plate, and technically it would be a strike. Whether any ump would call it one, may be another story. But, to say a ball that hits the plate cannot be a strike is not a statement that is correct, by rule.

A pitch that hits the ground and then enters the strike zone, can NEVER be a strike, because the ball did not enter the zone in-flight. But, any ball that ENTERS the strike zone, IN-FLIGHT, is a strike.

[Utility07]

What the heck is a 5 sided box?

[jbooth]

I couldn't find a rule to back that up. Is there one, or is this just a general consensus among umpires?

There is no rule to back it up, but I doubt that any umpires would call a strike on a pitch that hit the plate. It would have to be a NASTY dropping curve that entered the bottom of the zone at the front of the plate, and touched the back of the plate. 99.999% of the time, that's going to get called a ball. A slow-pitch type of pitch that hit the plate COULD be a strike, in baseball. In slow pitch, it IS a strike because they assume it had to cut through the zone, which is OVER the plate.

[jbooth]

What the heck is a 5 sided box?

The plate has 5 sides. Have you ever looked down at it? Or, is it that you think the definition of a box, is something with only 4 sides?

Ever seen a tool box with 5 sides, where the lid has two angled pieces that open, but are slanted? Or a box of candy that isn't square or rectangular?

[jbooth]

So it's just generally not called a strike if it hits the plate, even though it may actually qualify as such?

That's correct.

[bluezebra]

Uh, where did you come up with that?

The STRIKE ZONE is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the knee cap. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter's stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball.

A STRIKE is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire, which --

(b) Is not struck at, if any part of the ball passes through any part of the strike zone;

A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at by the batter.



The strike zone is a 5 sided box, suspended in the air between the knees and the armpits. If the ball touches any side of that box, it's a strike. The ball could come sharply down through the bottom-front part of the box and hit the plate, and technically it would be a strike. Whether any ump would call it one, may be another story. But, to say a ball that hits the plate cannot be a strike is not a statement that is correct, by rule.

A pitch that hits the ground and then enters the strike zone, can NEVER be a strike, because the ball did not enter the zone in-flight. But, any ball that ENTERS the strike zone, IN-FLIGHT, is a strike.

The key phrase is "passes through". If the pitch hits the plate, it has NOT passed through. Have you ever seen a pitch that hits home plate called a strike? In well over 60 years of watching baseball, at all levels, I never have.

Bob

[jbooth]

The key phrase is "passes through". If the pitch hits the plate, it has NOT passed through. Have you ever seen a pitch that hits home plate called a strike? In well over 60 years of watching baseball, at all levels, I never have.

Bob

It's not worth arguing about, because you're correct in that nobody is going to call it a strike, but technically it could be, and you are wrong because it indeed could "pass through" the zone and still hit the plate. That's what a slow-pitch, pitch does.

The ball could pass through the front pane of the box, and exit through the bottom of the imaginary box, and hit the plate, and it has "passed through" the zone. I don't believe (could be wrong), that "passes through" means that the ball has to stay above the plate for the entire 17 inch depth of the plate. A curve that knicks the front outside corner, is a strike, and it doesn't "pass through" the entire imaginary box.

[Padday]

The key phrase is "passes through". If the pitch hits the plate, it has NOT passed through. Have you ever seen a pitch that hits home plate called a strike? In well over 60 years of watching baseball, at all levels, I never have.

Bob

But you're missing the other key part of that phrase any part of the strikezone. If you enter a house at the front and leave through a side door you still pass through a part of the house. Despite this, I don't believe you would see that called a strike too often though.

[yanksforever]

Bases loaded, 2 outs. Hitter hits home run. Runners 1 and 2 cross plate. Runner 3 misses 3rd base -- while going back to touch 3rd (he hadn't touched home yet), the hitter catches up to him. they arrive at 3rd at about the same time, and for a brief moment both are touching 3rd. Runner 3 then proceeds home, and hitter follows him. Appeal is made, and the umpire rules that hitter is out, and only 2 runs score. Reference is made to rule that 2 runners can't occupy same base -- i assume the reference is to rule 7.03. It doesn't seem like 7.03 should apply in a dead ball situation (like a home run). Is that correct? If the ruling was really based on 7.08(h), that is, that the hitter had "passed" Runner 3 by being on 3rd at the same time, does that make sense?

[jbooth]

Bases loaded, 2 outs. Hitter hits home run. Runners 1 and 2 cross plate. Runner 3 misses 3rd base -- while going back to touch 3rd (he hadn't touched home yet), the hitter catches up to him. they arrive at 3rd at about the same time, and for a brief moment both are touching 3rd. Runner 3 then proceeds home, and hitter follows him. Appeal is made, and the umpire rules that hitter is out, and only 2 runs score. Reference is made to rule that 2 runners can't occupy same base -- i assume the reference is to rule 7.03. It doesn't seem like 7.03 should apply in a dead ball situation (like a home run). Is that correct? If the ruling was really based on 7.08(h), that is, that the hitter had "passed" Runner 3 by being on 3rd at the same time, does that make sense?

Please tell me this was a Little League game and umpire.

Appeal is made for what? You can only appeal that a baserunner failed to touch a base, or that he left the base before a fly ball was caught. What were they appealing? All of your runners touched each base.

4 runners could all stand on one base at the same time and nobody is out, UNTIL tagged. ONE of the runners is entitled to that base (the ump must know which one), and any of the others would be out when tagged. If there were no outs and 4 runners were standing on third, you could get 3 outs if you tag the right 3 in the right order.

The only out that can be made when the ball is dead, is when a following runner physically passes a preceding runner. 2 runners on a base is not passing, unless the following runner, actually physically gets closer to home than the other runner.

7.03
Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base

Note there is no appeal for 2 runners having BEEN on a base, and no out for 2 or more runners being on a base, UNTIL a TAG is made, while the ball is alive.

[yanksforever]

Yes it was a Little League game and umpire. Thanks for the quick response -- that's very helpful.

[bluezebra]

But you're missing the other key part of that phrase any part of the strikezone. If you enter a house at the front and leave through a side door you still pass through a part of the house. Despite this, I don't believe you would see that called a strike too often though.

AHA! You've proved my point. You PASSED THROUGH the house, you didn't remain in the house. If you pass through something, you have gone COMPLETELY through, you didn't stop part way.

Bob