Some Negro League player profiles:

[Bill Burgess]

In my attempt to be useful, I'd like to contribute these profiles. May these assist others in the Fever Hall of Fame, our endless polls/surveys.

John Beckwith
An undisciplined, mean, and short-tempered player, Beckwith stands with Josh Gibson as the two greatest right-handed batters to play in the Negro Leagues. A dangerous slugger, he crushed mammoth home runs and gathered hits by the bundle. Beckwith began with Frank Leland's Chicago Giants from 1916-23, when his dead-pull hitting led opponents to shift their defense to the left side of the field. Beckwith played with numerous teams in subsequent years, his malignant personality undoubtedly contributing to his short stay in many cases. A defensive liability as well, Beckwith's value as a hitter ranks him among the greatest right-handed hitters of any color, during any era.

Dave Brown
The pitching ace of the Chicago American Giants during the early 1920s, Brown had numerous effective pitches and the ability to win with either power or control. Brown was quiet and popular with his teammates in spite of consistently finding himself on the wrong side of the law. In 1925 he killed a man in a barroom fight and dropped out of sight to avoid conviction, cutting short a career that had tremendous promise.

Rube Foster
The most important figure in the establishment of the Negro Leagues, Foster is one of the most important figures in all of baseball history. In 25 years of black baseball, he was an excellent administrator, perhaps the greatest manager in black baseball history, and among the best few pitchers in the early part of his career. A crafty pitcher who featured a screwball, Foster was a dominant hurler in the 1900s, starring for a few teams, including the powerhouse Leland Giants from 1907-10. In 1910 he split with owner Frank Leland and formed his own team, the Chicago American Giants. Foster influenced black baseball for decades by building the Giants into a winner relying upon good pitching, excellent defense, and a bunting/free-running offensive attack. In 1920 he founded the Negro National League, the first "true" Negro League, and served as its president while running his own club. Thousands paid their respects after Foster's premature death in 1930.

Willie Foster
The younger half-brother of Rube, Willie starred for big brother's American Giants club from 1923-1930. Generally accepted as the best left-handed pitcher in black baseball history, Foster performed at his best when the game was most important. One example: he won the Negro National League pennant for the American Giants in 1926 by starting and winning both ends of a doubleheader to end the season against fellow Hall-of-Famer Bullet Joe Rogan. A power pitcher, Foster had good control and threw five different pitches well. He was likable, well-respected and educated - a dean at Alcorn State College after completing a career that established him as among the greatest pitchers - of any color.

Pete Hill
This outfielder began his long association with black baseball in 1899 and starred for the powerhouse Leland Giants and the Chicago American Giants. While existing statistics do not support the claims, many of his contemporaries considered him perhaps the finest hitter, and certainly the finest clutch hitter, of his era. A popular player who served as the team captain with the American Giants, Hill boasted solid defense, tremendous footspeed, and proficiency at the "inside baseball" style of play championed by his manager.

Grant Johnson
Nicknamed "Home Run" for his timely-if-infrequent blasts, this middle infielder helped form the Page Fence Giants in 1895 and was still playing nearly 30 years latter. Johnson was a leading hitter and a frequent captain for some of the best teams in the Negro Leagues, including the Brooklyn Royal Giants of the mid-to-late 1900s, the 1910 Leland Giants, and the great New York Lincoln Giants of the early 1910s. A good-natured, paternalistic team player, "Home Run" Johnson was one of the best players of his era.

John Henry Lloyd
The Negro Leagues produced a wealth of fine all-around shortstops, strong hitters and fielders both, but none rivaled John Henry Lloyd. "Pop" was the best Negro League player before the Negro National League in 1920. A star defensively who could play any infield position, Lloyd was also a marvelous base runner, a talented and patient hitter, and among the best at applying the "inside baseball" strategies favored in Negro League play. Expert at manufacturing a run, Lloyd competed for more than 10 teams during his storied career, playing for the owner willing to pay him the most. A man of strong moral fiber and particularly wonderful temperament, Pop Lloyd was one of the greatest three position players to play in the Negro Leagues.

Bill Monroe
Monroe was the greatest Negro Leaguer of the first decade of the century. Possessing a flare for the dramatic and superior talent, Monroe was particularly valuable in the field, where he flashed great range and avoided costly errors while delighting the fans with his showboating on the easier plays. He was a good contact hitter, on base regularly, with tremendous speed. He started with the Chicago Unions in 1896 and went on to contribute to the success of many of the finest teams of his era: The three-time champion Philadelphia Giants and the Brooklyn Royal Giants of 1907-10, before winding down his career with Rube Foster's first capable Chicago American Giants teams through the mid-1910s. Handsome and popular, Monroe stands with John Henry Lloyd as the finest Negro League players of their generation.

Bruce Petway
An intelligent student of the game, "Buddy" possessed numerous skills not typical in the men who have donned the "tools of ignorance" over the years. A switch-hitter, Petway was an excellent bunter, a contact hitter who protected runners well and a frequent threat to steal a base. He had a patient batting eye. However, his greatest strength was his legendary throwing arm. He was best remembered for throwing out Ty Cobb three times in a 1910 Cuban set of games. He spent eight seasons in his prime with the early Chicago American Giants, and seven with the Detroit Stars as a player-manager.

Spot Poles
The most prolific leadoff hitter of the early days, Poles was a superior defensive outfielder who hit for high averages, had a sharp batting eye, and ran the bases with singular speed that helped him pilfer many bases and score a lot of runs. Poles spent most of his career with the New York Lincoln Giants, enjoying two extended stints between 1911-23. A World War I hero who was a coach for many years after his playing years, Poles was an intense competitor and an impressive physical specimen and athlete.

Ted Radcliffe
Called "Double Duty" for his dual role as starting pitcher and top catcher, Radcliffe is a unique figure in the annals of baseball history. No other pitcher at a Major League level has spent virtually his entire career as a full-time player on his off-days, let alone as a catcher, easily the most demanding position on the diamond. Of course, we can just as easily look at it the opposite way and observe that no starting player, never mind a catcher, has also taken a regular turn in solid pitching rotations for most of a career that spanned past the end of the color line. A superior catcher and solid pitcher, "Duty" played in numerous All-Star contests, as both catcher and a pitcher. He had a steady throwing arm, was quick defensively, and was a solid batter. As a pitcher he enjoyed throwing a variety of illegal pitches to confound the opposition. A ballplayer who always gravitated toward the fattest paycheck, Radcliffe never spent more than two successive seasons with the same team until the very end of his career, retiring as a unique competitor in the rich history of our national pastime.

Turkey Stearnes
Best remembered for the tremendous length of his home runs, Norman "Turkey" Stearnes hit for high average with power to all fields. He ran the bases well and had excellent speed (even leading off at times), was among the better defensive outfielders of his era, and was eventually molded into a capable "inside baseball" player, as well. The cozy confines of Detroit's Mack Park might have inflated his numbers, but Stearnes, who played in the high-octane 1920s and 1930s, legitimately stands as one of the most productive sluggers in black baseball history. Turkey was a quiet, private man. He spent 10 of the first 11 years of his career with the Detroit Stars, and later with the Kansas City Monarchs.

George Stovey
The "oldest" ballplayer in this set, Stovey was among the black ballplayers competing in the white minor leagues when the color line was put into place in 1887. In fact, Stovey is the pitcher who touched off Cap Anson's well-documented refusal to play the Newark club in 1887. A marvelous hurler who reportedly was considered for signing by Major League clubs, the left-hander pitched for the original Cuban Giants teams. Stovey's statistical accomplishments may have been marred by racial prejudices and the record keeping of the time, but he remains one of the most important baseball players of the 19th Century.

Ben Taylor
A star hitter on the solid early entries of the Indianapolis ABC's, Taylor stands as the finest all-around first baseman in the first 40 years of black baseball. He was nimble around the sack and hit to all fields, both able to knock home important runs and protect or advance the baserunner if necessary. Beginning in 1910, Taylor played, managed and coached numerous clubs. In the early years he played for powerhouses like the New York Lincoln Giants and Chicago American Giants. Taylor was a member of the largest ballplaying family in the Negro Leagues.

Christobal Torriente
C.I. Taylor famously said, "If I should see Torriente walking up the other side of the street, I would say, 'There walks a ballclub.' " Torriente was one of the finest outfielders in Negro League history, and one of the best overall players. A premiere slugger before home-run hitting took off, Torriente scorched line drives to all fields. Thickly built but light afoot, he was one of the finest defensive center fielders ever. Torriente starred with the Chicago American Giants from 1918-25 when the team was consistently among the best in baseball. A moody and sometimes difficult player, he left the American Giants amidst controversy and spent his final years shuttling between teams. One of the greatest Cuban-born players, Torriente was an inaugural member of the Cuban Hall of Fame.

Frank Wickware
A fireballing right hander, Wickware spent the better part of 10 seasons between the Leland Giants and Chicago American Giants during his 14-year career. He was among the best hurlers in the 1910s, but Wickware's freewheeling lifestyle, lackadaisical attitude, and uneven demeanor made him a handful for his various managers and contributed as much to his early decline as much as any erosion of talent.
Coming in March: Josh Gibson and the mighty Homestead Grays.
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Bill Burgess

[zman]

You might also add that Radcliffe is the oldest living player in the history of professional baseball in Washington. According to the story in the Washington Post, (link below) it sounds like "Double Duty" is still going strong at 102. His batting eye might not be as sharp as it once was but apparently his eye for the ladies is as keen as ever.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45058-2005Apr11.html

[Bill Burgess]

Wagner/Lloyd
Lloyd was born Aril 15, 1884, and made it to semi-pro by 1905, at age of 21.
He started as a catcher. He traveled the negro leagues pretty well. In 1907, his manager switched him from 2B to SS. It wasn't unusual for him to go south every winter, ending up playing 12 months a yr. He played the position so well, that they called him the "Black Honus Wagner". Wagner, after watching Lloyd play, switched the compliment to, "It's a privilege to have been compared to hm."

From 1907-10, he played each winter in Cuba, and in Nov.- Dec., 1910, the Detroit Tigers visited Cuba for a set of 12 games. Initially, Cobb didn't want to go. But when the Cuban promoters offered an additional $1,000. bonus, plus travel expenses. He said, "I decided to break my own rule for a few games."

Crawford, Mullin and all the starting Tiger pitchers went along. Plus O'Leary,
Willet, Moriarty, T. Jones, Casey, Stanage, McIntyre, Schaefer went along. Mullen also managed. The Cubans were joined by black US stars, Bruce Petway, Pete Hill, Grant Johnson and Pop Lloyd, sometimes called the black Honus Wagner. Cobb dilly-dallied in Key West before he arrived in Havana, on Nov. 26, by which time, the Tigers had gone 3-3-1 with the black ballplayers. With Cobb they finished, 7-4-1. In the last game, Mendez fanned Ty once, Ty got a single, and Petway threw him out at 2nd when he tried to steal. For 5 games, Ty went 7 x 19= .370. Crawford hit .360 in 12 games, and Lloyd hit .500, Johnson .412, and Petway
.390, all against top ML pitching.

So, as a point of comparison, Wagner played a set of 7 games against the 1909 Tigers, basicly the same bunch that Lloyd played a year later. And Wagner managed a .333 BA. against the same pitching Lloyd hit .500 against.

Lloyd played against McGraws Giants in 1913, McGraw toyed with bringing him into the NL. That's how impressed Little Napoleon was with him. At 5'11, 180, he was acknowleged as one of the campfire legends of the game. By 1918, he started managing/playing, which he continued until he retired in 1931, at age 47. By then he had switched to 1B, but could still hit. He settled in Atlantic City, NJ, married in '44. He continued to fool around with semi-pro until he was 58, playing 1B. Esquire magazine did a story on him in '38, bringing him to the attention of the white fans. He became a janitor in the Atlantic City post office, and in the mid-30's, became school janitor at the Indiana Avenue school. The kids all loved him and called him Pop. He died on March 19, 1965 in Atlantic City at age 80.

Men like Mack, McGraw and Hughie Jennings all called him among the best players in BB history. In various yrs., he often hit around .450.

Ultimately, I have to give it to Wagner, since without verifiable stats against qualified opposition, I can't assume Lloyd was better, or even as good. This brief summary was culled from Marty Appel's fantastic book, Baseball's Best, 1980, pp. 413-414.
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Introducing Wilbur "Bullet Joe" Rogan.

First, a few personal details. A Negro L. star player, he was formost a great pitcher, but also played OF, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, manager, umpire. His playing career extended from 1917-38, and his umpiring days from 1939-46.
His teams were:
Kansas City Colored Giants, 1917
All Nations, 1917
Kansas City Monarchs, 1920-38
League: Negro American League; BR, TR; 5'7, 180;
Born: July 28, 1889, Oklahoma City, OK
Died: March 4, 1967, Kansas City, MO

An outstanding pitcher with a tremendous fastball, a fine curve, and good control. "Bullet Joe" Rogan was a star for the Kansas City Monarchs for almost twenty years. The right-hander was a smart pitcher who used a no-windup delivery, a sidearm motion, and always kept the ball down. In addition to his basic pitches, he included a forkball, palmball, and spitter in his repertory.. A durable workhorse averaging 30 starting assignments per year for a decade and rarely being relieved, this versatile player's value to the team was inestimable. He also was a superb fielder and a dangerous hitter with good power.

He had strong wrists and used a heavy bat, and when not pitching, he played elsewhere to keep his bat in the lineup.

He showcased his stamina and versatility when he gained two victories in the 1924 World Series against the great Hilldale club, pitching three complete games and relieving in another, and batting .325 while playing in the outfield the other six games. That winter, in his only trip to Cuba, the hard worker continued his winning pace, recording a 9-4 worksheet.

The following year without Rogan on the mound in the World Series, the Monarchs lost to the same Hilldale club. In 1926, Bullet hit .331 and compiled a 12-4 record on the mound, which was tops for the first-half champion Monarchs, who lost a heartbreaking five-out-of-nine play-off to the second-half champion, Chicago American Giants. In a valiant effort to stave off defeat, Bullet Joe started both ends of a double-header on the last day of the play-off, but to no avail.

During his twilight years, Rogan served as manager of the Monarchs prior to his retirement in 1938.

He was known as a good curveball hitter with a smooth swing, often hit cleanup, and led the league with 16 homers in 1922. From 1922-30, he hit .351, .416, .412, .366, .314, .330, .353, .341, .311, while, for the 1st 7 yrs. of those years, he registered these pitching records:

13-6, 12-8, 16-5, 15-2, 12-4, 15-6, 9-03.

In exhibitins against MLers, Rogan is credited with a .329 BA, making his last appearance at age 48, when he collected 3 hits against Bob Feller's All-Stars. Jocko Conlon, who often played against black teams before beginning his career as an umpire, regarded Rogan as one of the greats of the Negro L., describing his motion as "a nice, easy delivery" and declaring him to be faster than Satchel Paige.

On June 29, 1949, both Oscar Charleston and Ed Bolden, chose their all time Negro L. teams for the Sporting News. Both chose Bullet Joe as their 1st starting pitcher and Paige as their 2nd starting pitcher. Charleston's other pitchers were:Leblanc Western, Pat Doherty & William Dismukes. Ed Bolden's other pitchers were: Smokey Joe Williams Cannonball Dick Redding & Rube Foster.

In 1952, the Pittsburgh Courier, a black newspaper, polled 31 Negro league players, writers, officials and managers and they selected a A & B teams:

----A team pitchers-------B team pitchers

P - Smokey Joe Williams----P - Dave Brown
P - Satchel Paige-----------P - Cannonball Dick Redding
P - Bullet Joe Rogan--------P - Nip Winters
P - John Donaldson--------- P - Dizzy Dismukes
P - Willie Foster------------P - Don Newcombe

Later in 1952, the Pittsburgh Courier, a black newspaper, polled its fans as to the greatest Negro leagues players. They chose 5 teams. The first team was as follows.

First team: (1B) Buck Leonard, (2B) Jackie Robinson, (SS) Pop Lloyd, (3B) Oliver Marcelle, (OF) Monte Irvin, (OF) Oscar Charleston, (OF) Cristobel Torriente, (C) Josh Gibson, (C) Biz Mackey, (P) Joe Williams, (P) Satchel Paige, (P) Bullet Rogan, (P) John Dondaldson, (P) Bill Foster, (Utility) Martin Dihigo, (Utility) Sam Bankhead, (Mgr) Rube Foster, (Coach) Dizzy Dismukes, (Coach) Danny McClellan.
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Introducing "Smokey Joe" Williams.
Found this thread from another site.
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Who was better during the Deadball Era: Johnson, Alexander or Williams?

That’s how good Smokey Joe was that he doesn’t look foolish being in that question.

Posted by John (Don't Call Me Grandma) Murphy on 08/17 at 05:08 PM / (28 comments)
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Posted by The definitely immoral Eric Enders on August 17, 2004 at 06:52 PM (#802570)
Another slam-dunk HOMer. Here's an encyclopedia entry I once wrote on Williams. (It's from the Encyclopedia of Native Americans in Sports, which is the reason for the focus on his matchups with Bender.)
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WILLIAMS, JOSEPH “SMOKEY JOE”

One of the greatest pitchers in baseball’s Negro Leagues, Smokey Joe Williams is one of a handful of Native Americans inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. In a career reminiscent of Nolan Ryan’s, Williams used an overpowering fastball to win untold hundreds of games and strike out thousands of opposing batters during a career spanning nearly three decades.

Although official birth records do not exist, Williams is believed to have been born on 6 April 1886 in Seguin, Texas, to an African American father and Native American mother. (His mother was reported to be a Cherokee, although this has not been confirmed.) Williams began his baseball career on the sandlots of Central Texas, where he played for teams in San Antonio and Austin from 1905-09. In 1910 Williams joined the Chicago Giants, a formidable independent team, and a year later he moved on to the New York Lincoln Giants, a premier African American team of the day, for whom he would pitch more than a decade. The Lincoln Giants compiled impressive won-lost records against other black teams and in exhibitions against “white” major leaguers. Williams is known to have faced the other standout Native American pitcher of the day, Charles “Chief” Bender, at least twice. Williams defeated Bender by scores of 2-1 in 1913 and 11-1 in 1917.

In thirty-one documented games against major league competition, Williams compiled a 22-7 record. However, two of Williams’ most impressive feats – a no-hitter against the New York Giants and a 1-0 victory over Walter Johnson, both reportedly in 1917 – have yet to be historically documented and survive only in tales passed down from generation to generation.

A tall, lean man with an extraordinary fastball, Williams claimed to have pitched five no-hit games in his career, including one against ex-teammate Dick Redding on Opening Day 1919. His decade of excellence in New York made him a well-known figure in Harlem, and he developed a reputation as a “stage door johnny” before marrying an ex-showgirl in 1922. In 1924 the Lincoln Giants released Williams because they believed that, at age thirty-eight, his best days were behind him.

In 1925 Williams signed with the Homestead Grays, a powerful Pittsburgh-based team, where he enjoyed an extraordinary late-career renaissance. On 7 August 1930 Williams pitched perhaps the greatest game in Negro Leagues history. In a night game against the renowned Kansas City Monarchs, he allowed only one hit and struck out twenty-seven batters in a 1-0, twelve inning victory. By this time Williams had become famed as the Methuselah of the Negro Leagues, an image he promoted by claiming to be fifty years old although he was really forty-four.

Williams retired from baseball in 1932, at age forty-six, after pitching for twenty-eight seasons. He found work as a bartender in New York, where he traded baseball tales with eager customers. In 1950 Williams, then in ill health, was honored before a Sunday afternoon game at the Polo Grounds. He died in New York on 25 February 1951. The next year, a Pittsburgh Courier poll of black baseball officials and sportswriters named Williams the greatest pitcher in the history of the Negro Leagues. Nearly half a century later, on 25 July 1999, he was finally inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

BIBLIOGRAPHY
Holway, John. 1988. Blackball Stars. New York: Carroll & Graf.
Lester, Larry, and Dick Clark, eds. 1994. The Negro Leagues Book. Cleveland, OH: Society for American Baseball Research.
Research Files. National Baseball Hall of Fame Library, Cooperstown, New York.
Riley, James. 1994. The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues. New York: Carroll & Graf.
Posted by John (Don't Call Me Grandma) Murphy on August 17, 2004 at 07:56 PM (#802701)
Nearly half a century later, on 25 July 1999, he was finally inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

He should have been elected into the HoF as one of the very first Negro Leaguers, IMO.


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Nicely written passage, Eric.
Posted by Chris J. on August 18, 2004 at 01:35 PM (#804301)
He died in New York on 25 February 1951. The next year, a Pittsburgh Courier poll of black baseball officials and sportswriters named Williams the greatest pitcher in the history of the Negro Leagues.

Any possibility that the standard post-death misty-eyed treatment pushed him past Paige in the poll? Not saying he wasn't a great pitcher - he was, but this could be a reason to question the Courier's ranking of him.
Posted by The definitely immoral Eric Enders on August 18, 2004 at 02:07 PM (#804366)
I've suspected the same thing myself. Alas, there's no way to really know.
Posted by The definitely immoral Eric Enders on August 18, 2004 at 02:33 PM (#804398)
Any possibility that the standard post-death misty-eyed treatment pushed him past Paige in the poll?

In a related matter, the sentiment over Williams' death did manifest itself in another way: It started the movement to allow black players into the Hall of Fame.

Sometime in 1951, shortly after Williams died, sportswriter Joe Bostic became the first person (so far as I can tell) ever to publicly advocate for the admission of Negro Leaguers into Cooperstown.

This was followed by a gradual groundswell of support. Satchel Paige got one renegade write-in vote in the 1953 election, and continued to receive a handful per year annually after that. (Although the Hall declined to keep counting them after that first year.) Eventually this all led up to the activism of Stan Isaacs and Ted Williams, and you all know what happened after that.
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Joshua (Josh) Gibson:
1929-46; Positions: C, OF, 3B, 1B; Teams: Homestead GHrays ('29-31, '37-'40, '42-'46), Pittsburgh Crawfords ('32-'36), Santo Domingo ('37), Mexican L. ('40-'41); BR/TR; 6'1, 210; Born: Dec. 21, 1911, Buena Vista, GA; Died: Jan. 20, 1947, Pittsburgh, PA

In black baseball, only Satchel Paige was better known than Joshua Gibson. Hit for both distance/ave. Was aptly titled "the black Babe Ruth", and his charisma electrified the crowd. Like Jimmie Foxx, he rolled up his sleeves to bare his huge arm muscles. Used a semicrouched, flat-footed stance and without striding, he generated a compact swing that lauched so many tape measure shots, that, like Ruth, they came to become expected.

Black kids idolized him, and he is credited with blasting one out of Yankee Stadium, but, like Ruth's "called shot", it is more folklore than fact.

Gibson was credited with 962 HRs in his 17 yr. career, although manyh of these wre against nonleague teams. Many of the individual season marks that are accredited to him also are against all levels of opposition.

In Mexico, he hit 44 HRs in 450 ABs with an .802 SLG. and, in one winter season in Puerto rico, hit 13 HRs in 123 ABs, smashing a HR every 9.5 ABs.

He compiled a .354 BA in the NL, .373 BA for 2 yrs, in Mexico, .353 BA for 2 winters in Cuba, .412 BA. in exhibitions games against major leaguers.

Defensively, he had a rifle arm, and worked hard to make himself one of the better receivers in the league. His only flaw in his game was weakness on pop-upsbehind the plate. He was quick, behind the plate & on the bases, & ran the bases well. Both Walter Johnson and Carl Hubbell placed him among the all time great catchers. Johnson assess his value at $200K, twice what he placed on Bill Dickey. His fans voted him to start 9 East-West all star games, in which he hit .483.

Despite his sucess on the field, by 1942, a dark side began showing itself. By the end of '42, a decline in his physical and mental well-being was obvious.
In Jan., 1943, he was committed to the hospital afer having a nervous breakdown. From then until his death, he was plagued with personal problems, depression, compounded by his excessive drinking, and possible substance abuse.
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James Raleigh Clarence (Biz) Mackey:
1920-47, '50; Positions: C, SS, 3B, 2B, 1B, OF, P, Manager; BB/TR; 6'0, 200; Born: July 27, 1897, Eagle Pass, TX; Died: Sept. 22, 1965, Los Angeles, CA.

Biz Mackey was an incredibly talented receiver who remained cool under pressure, and his defensive skills were unsurpassed in the history of black baseball. Considered the master of defense, he possessed all the tools necessary behind the plate, but gained the most acclaim for his powerful and deadly accurate throwing arm. He could snap a throw to second from a squatting position and get it there, harder, quicker, and with more accuracy that most catchers can standing up. Mackey delighted in throwing out the best basestealers, and his pegs to the keystone sack were frozen ropes passing the mound belt high and arriving on the bag feather soft.

Although barely literate, Mackey was intelligent, had a good BB mind, and employed a studious approach to the game. The ballpark was his classroom, and inside BB was his subject of expertise. He relied on meticulous observation and a good memory to match weaknesses of opposing hitters with the strengths of his pitching staff. An expert handler of pitchers, he also studied meople and could direct the temperments of his hurlers as well as he did their repertoires.

He was also a jokester, and utilized good-natured banter and irrelevant conversation to try to distract a hitter and break his concentration at the plate, and was a master at "stealing" stikes from umpires by framing and funneling pitches. Pitchers recognized his generalship and liked to pitch to the big, husky receiver who, for his size, was surpreisingly agile behind the plate. Hits unexpected quickness, coupled with soft hands, enabled the versatile athlete to play often at SS, 3B, or in the OF, and although lacking noteworthy range, he proved adept at any position. He was also a smart base runner and, while not fast, stole his share of bases.

In his prime, the swithc-hitting Mackey was one of the most dangerous hitters in baseball, with power from both sides of the plate. In his initial season for Hilldale, he hit .423 BA, 20 HRs, and .698. SLG.

From 1923 on, he hit .337, .350, .327, .315, .327, .337, .400, .376. Biz learned the craft of baseball under his 1st manager C.I. Taylor, a master teacher. In 1923, Mackey was a plum plucked by raiding Hilldale owner Ed Bolden. Initially, with the Hilldale Daisies, he split his playing time between catching and SS, sharing duties behind the plate with aging superstar Louis "Santop" Loftin. But for the '25 season he won the position full time, and for the next decade retained recognition as the premier receiver in black baseball.

Mackey was in demand for postseason exhibitions and played against ML all star squads. In 1926, Hilldale won 5 of 6 games from the Philadelphia Athletics with Lefty Grove. In balloting for the inaugural East-West All-Star game in 1933, Mackey's all-around skills were preferred over the slugging ability of young Josh Gibson. Mackey was then 36 yrs. old and past his prime, while Gibson was just beginning to hit his stride. However, Mackey's defensive skills were still so far above those of other catchers that he played in 4 of the 1st 6 midsummer classics. Even as late as 1937, he was still considered the best all-around receiver in the Negro Leagues. One of his proteges with the Elites was Roy Campanella, who credits Mackey with teaching him the finer points of catching. Observers say that watching Campanella was like seeing Mackey behind the plate again.

Biz had enough left to hit .307 in '45. He was a nonsmoker/nondrinker, and served as an exemplary role model for young black kids.

He hit .335 BA. in league play, .326 against white ML competition.

Gibson/Mackey:
Offense/Defense: Depends on how much one values brute power/ good defense over balanced power/master defensive technician. I take Mackey over Gibson.

Although Gibson supposedly was a good defensive man, in the NL, he was outranked defensively by, at the very least, Mackey, Bruce Petway, Larry Brown, Frank Duncan, Roy Campanella, Ted Radcliffe, Louis "Santop" Loftin.

If the Negro Leagues had a Top 10 Defensive Catchers list , Josh Gibson might fairly rank at the bottom of the Top 10, but the Top of the Top 10 Catchers Offensively.

If the Negro Leagues had a Top 10 Offensive Catchers list, Biz Mackey might fairly rank 4th, beneath Gibson, Santop and Campy. There might be a few others, but I'm still studying the Negro Leagues. All told, I'd indeed take Mackey over Gibson. In catchers, I value defense over offense. Same as at SS.
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Introducing John Henry "Pop" Lloyd

JOHN HENRY "Pop" LLOYD
Born: April 15, 1884, Florida
Died: March 19, 1965, Atlantic City, NJ
Career:1905-1932

Lloyd was born April 15, 1884, and made it to semi-pro by 1905, at age of 21. John Henry LLoyd was discovered in 1905 on the sandlots of Jacksonville by Rube Foster. He soon joined Foster's team, the Cuban X-Giants. He started as a catcher. In 1907, his manager switched him from 2B to SS. He traveled the Negro leagues pretty well. From his stint with the X-Giants until he became player-manager of the Brooklyn Royal Giants in 1918, he established himself as a winner wherever he went. Between 1906 and 1918, he played with great teams such as the Philadelphia Giants, Leland Giants, New York, Lincoln Giants, Chicago American Giants, and the New York Lincoln Stars.

It wasn't unusual for him to go south every winter, ending up playing 12 months a yr. He played the position so well, that they called him the "Black Honus Wagner". Wagner, after watching Lloyd play, switched the compliment to, "It's a privilege to have been compared to him."

Beginning in 1918 when he became the playing-manager of the Brooklyn Royal Giants, Lloyd jumped from one team to another until he settled with the Hilldale Daisies in 1922. The next year, Lloyd hit a sensational .418, leading Hilldale to its first pennant. He left the team to join the Bacharach Giants after he was fired due to some quarrels with the Daisies owner. John stayed with the Giants for 2 years before returning to New York in 1926 to manage/play with the Lincoln Giants. He stayed with this team until 1930 when he decided to go back to the Bacharach Giants. Lloyd played his final 2 years with the Giants.

Throughout his career he was praised by many people include the major league players and coaches. Many baseball historians say that he was one of the best black players ever, but the mighty Babe Ruth, disregarding his race, said he was the greatest baseball player of all time! Lloyd died in 1965, 12 years before he was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1977.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from James A Riley's book.

"Essential to any team'ssuccess during the deeadball era was the presence of John Henry Lloyd, the greatest black baseball player during the first two decades of the century. The tall, rangy superstar was the greatest shortstop of his day, black or white, and with the exception of Honus Wagner in his prime, no major leaguer could compare with him. Wagner is reported to have said that he considered it a privilege to be compared to Lloyd.

He was a complete ballplayer who could hit, run, field, throw, and hit with power, especially in the clutch. A superior hitter and a dangerous base runner, his knowledge and application of inside baseball as defined in the era allowed him to generate runs with a variety of skills.

In the field he was a superlative fielder who studied batters and positioned himself wisely, got a good jump on the ball, and possessed exceptional range and sure hands with which he dug balls out of the dirt like a shovel.

. . . John McGraw assessed the country's sociological climate while appraising his ability: "If we could bleach this Lloyd boy, we would show the National League a new phenomenon." Some of his BA.:

1907 - .250
1910 - .417
1911 - .475
1912 - .376
1913 - .363
1921 - .336
1922 - .387
1923 - .418
1924 - .444 - 2nd base
1925 - .330 - 2nd base
1926 - .349 - 2nd base
1927 - .375 - 2nd base
1928 - .564 - 1st base
1929 - .362
1930 - .312

12 Winter seasons in Cuba, between 1908-30 resulted in a BA. of .321.
(The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues, by James A. Riley, 2002, pp. 486-489.)

I have Wagner as my #2 man all-time, and Pop's my #10th. Bill James has Wagner as his #2 also, and Pop is his #22.

From 1907-10, he played each winter in Cuba, and in Nov.- Dec., 1910, the Detroit Tigers visited Cuba for a set of 12 games. Initially, Cobb didn't want to go. But when the Cuban promoters offered an additional $1,000. bonus, plus travel expenses. He said, "I decided to break my own rule for a few games."

In the last game, Mendez fanned Ty once, Ty got a single, and Petway threw him out at 2nd when he tried to steal. For 5 games, Ty went 7 x 19= .370. Crawford hit .360 in 12 games, and Lloyd hit .500, Johnson .412, and Petway
.390, all against top ML pitching.

So, as a point of comparison, Wagner played a set of 7 games against the 1909 Tigers, in the World Series, basicly the same bunch that Lloyd played a year later. And Wagner managed a .333 BA. against the same pitching Lloyd hit .500 against.

Lloyd played against McGraws Giants in 1913, McGraw toyed with bringing him into the NL. That's how impressed Little Napoleon was with him. At 5'11, 180, he was acknowleged as one of the campfire legends of the game. By 1918, he started managing/playing, which he continued until he retired in 1931, at age 47. By then he had switched to 1B, but could still hit. He settled in Atlantic City, NJ, married in '44. He continued to fool around with semi-pro until he was 58, playing 1B. Esquire magazine did a story on him in '38, bringing him to the attention of the white fans. He became a janitor in the Atlantic City post office, and in the mid-30's, became school janitor at the Indiana Avenue school. The kids all loved him and called him Pop.

Lloyd died on March 19, 1965 in Atlantic City at age 80, 12 years before he was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1977.

Men like Mack, McGraw and Hughie Jennings all called him among the best players in BB history. In various yrs., he often hit around .450.

This brief summary was culled from Marty Appel's fantastic book, Baseball's Best, 1980, pp. 413-414.

[jalbright]

One guy who is currently being overlooked IMO is Monte Irvin. People look at his MLB career of eight years but forget they start when he's 30 and that he broke his ankle quite badly when he was 33. It's easy to forget he lost about 10 years to the color line and WWII.

So what would his career have looked like with those 10 years? The best answer I can come up with starts with a APBA simulation of the franchise All-Stars of the Negro leagues prepared by David Lawrence. In the set I'm talking about, he takes the entire career of the player with the franchise he's carded with and translates it to an "average season" for the franchise. Since Irvin spent virtually all his time with the Newark Eagles, that helps. His method also eliminates problems caused by 30 to 50 game data samples. I then took those numbers from the Negro Leagues and translated them to major league numbers by mulitplying runs and RBI by 9 (.9 times 10) and walks all types of hits by 9.5 (.95 times 10) to account for the difference in leagues. The other stats were simply mutliplied by 10. There are no park adjustments in this projection, however. I'll then add that projected data to his actual MLB stats.

Here's what we get:
games 2144
AB 8159
runs 1506
hits 2565
2B 506
3B 88
HR 289
RBI 1703
BB 1013
SO 680
SB 190
avg .314
OBP .390
slg .504

Compare those numbers to what he did in 1950-1953 in the majors. His marks are as follows, despite losing 100 games in 1952 to a badly broken ankle:

AB 1502
R 79
H 471
2B 61
3B 22
HR 64
RBI 305
BB 206
SB 17
avg .314
obp .381
slg .511

Those numbers match up quite well with the projection I gave for him. I think it is quite reasonable to think that 10 seasons before this stretch would help him hold the line against his decline phase, which lasted a mere 4 seasons. The biggest difference I see is that he lost his speed (I'd suggest due to a combination of age and the ankle injury.) In fact, I understand he reinjured the ankle badly in a collision at home plate on August 9, 1953. This could well account for his dropoff thereafter.


I then used a database that ends with the 1998 season to come up with the most similar players using Similarity Scores. The top ten, in order from most similar to least similar are:


Goose Goslin in Cooperstown, 13 of 34 votes in May for BBFHOF
Al Simmons in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
Harry Heilmann in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
Dave Parker in neither, no votes in May
Joe Medwick in Cooperstown, 13 of 34 votes in May for BBFHOF
Bob Johnson in neither, no votes in May
Jim Rice in neither, 1 of 34 votes in May
George Brett in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
Roberto Clemente in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
Billy Williams in Cooperstown, 21 of 34 votes in May for BBFHOF


All his top 3 and 7 of his top 10 comparables are in Cooperstown , and 4 of the top ten comparables are in the BBF HOF. The three that are in Cooperstown but not in the BBFHOF have all garnered at least 40% (Goslin and Medwick had 14/34 in April) of the vote, one of them has achieved over 60%.

Note: In the Negro Leagues, he won 2 home run titles, per William McNeil on page 32 of Cool Papas and Double Duties

Biography from Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 408:

He signed with the Newark Eagles in 1937, playing under another name to protect his amateur standing, since he was in college. Irvin was a power hitter who also hit for high average, [winning] two batting titles in the Negro National League. . . . [He spearheaded the Eagles' 1946 victory] in the Negro World Series. . . .

A versatile player, he played both infield and outfield with the Eagles. . . . In 1939, he hit .403 with good power, and followed with strong seasons of .377 and .400. {A contract hassle led him to go to Mexico in 1942, where he led in average (.397) and home runs (20), finished second in RBIs (79) in only 63 games, and won the MVP award. {Then . . . he was drafted . . . spending three years in military service. . . .

After his three-year hiatus from baseball, Irvin felt a need for additional winter ball to work back into his prewar condition, and resumed pley in Latin America. Irvin [played on champions in both Cuba and Puerto Rico}. He posted a lifetime .355 average in Puerto Rico.. . .

Before the war Irvin had been the Negro League owner's choice for the player to be the player to break the color line [but because of the war, Jackie Robinson became the one to do so].

Also of note are the following: 1) Elected to Cooperstown; 2) 19th place in the SABR poll ranking Negro League greats, and 3) the third best Negro League left-fielder in the opinion of Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract.

Anyone interested in his career in the majors can conuslt baseballlibrary.com. and/or baseball-reference.com.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Ray Dandridge according to Bill James

From page 184 of the most recent Historical Abstract:

Really a shortstop in terms of ability, but played third base in some of his best years because he was a teammate of Devil Wells. . . . Fast, an amazing third baseman, and a .350-.370 hitter, he was signed by the Giants when he was ...nearly 36, and was the best player in the American Association the second half of 1949 (hitting .363) and all of 1950 (when he won the league's MVP Award), but the Giants (who needed a third baseman) wouldn't bring him up. Durable, consistent; did everything exceptionally well except that he wasn't a power hitter.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Ray Brown

The only truly notable accolades I found for him is the fact he finished among the top six pitchers in the 1993 poll of Negro League Museum members. He just was recently elected into the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit".

The Baseball Think Factory guys project him to a major league record of 270-190, which translates to 238 Fibonacci Win Points. They seem to think he would have had 320-330 career win shares, but they didn't break that total down. An earlier estimate put him at 299 career win shares, 134 for his best five consecutive, and a best three of 43, 43 and 30. I think that earlier, more conservative evaluation places him between Joe McGinnity (260 career WS, 162 best 5 consecutive, top 3 of 42, 40 and 35 and 260 Fibonacci) and Early Wynn (308 career, 110 best 5 consecutive, top 3 of 28, 25 and 24 and 221 Fibonacci). I think the projection is credible, especially when you look at what he did everywhere he played (Source: page 96 of Cool Papas and Double Duties by William McNeil):

League............................................ .won-lost.......pct
Negro leagues....................................146-55.........726
Mexican League...................................51-36.........586
Cuban Winter League............................46-20.........697
Puerto Rican Winter League....................29- 8.........784
Total............................................. .272-119........696

All the above-mentioned leagues had at least some top level talent. Quite a record, even if in the Negro Leagues he played for the Homestead Grays at their dominating best.

According to Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 124:
The Homestead Grays ace had a sinker, slider and a fine fastball, but his curveball was his best pitch. So confident was Ray in all of his pitches that he would throw a curve with a 3-0 count . . . . Later in his career, he developed an effective knuckleball, and he had good control of all his pitchers. . . . [He had] a nineteen-year career . . . [highlighted by] a perfect game in a seven inning contest against the Chicago American Giants in 1945.

William McNeil in Cool Papas and Double Duties, page 96 adds:
He was a dangerous man at the plate, rapping the ball at a .316 clip. . . .
He pitched the Grays to nine consecutive Negro National League pennants between 1937 and 1945.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Larry Doby

If anyone needs any reasons beyond his role as the integrator of the American League and excellent performance in the majors and the Negro Leagues to vote for Larry Doby, here are some quotes from page 729 of Bill James' latest Historical Abstract:

"Doby was one of the five best players in the American League . . . every season between 1950 and 1954" in James' opinion

Doby was one of those rare five tool players: he did everything well. If you scored Doby on hitting for average, hitting for power, speed, defense, throwing, strike zone judgment, probably his lowest score would be hitting for average--yet he hit as high as .326 [ed. in the majors] and his career average of .283 is hardly a gaping wound.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Perucho ("The Bull") Cepeda

This man is Orlando ("The Baby Bull") Cepeda's father. According to Jim Riley, many observers feel the elder Cepeda was the better ballplayer. This Cepeda never played in the states, as he was a proud man with a temper. He realized a black man with those traits could easily get into serious trouble in the States in those days, so he never came and played here, despite repeated offers. I don't even see that he played in Cuba, which surprises me. Anyway, when the Puerto Rican Winter League started, he was already 32. He played shortstop, and according to William McNeil's Baseball's Other Stars, he was a good fielder. In his first five seasons in the Puerto Rican Winter League, Cepeda did the following despite quality opponents like Satchel Paige, Leon Day, Josh Gibson, Buck Leonard, Tetelo Vargas, Francisco Coimbre and Roy Campanella (I don't know if any of them were there all five years--but there were some very good ballplayers in the PRWL at the time):

Won two MVPs
Won two batting titles and finished third twice
Won three RBI titles and finished second once
was second in HR once
Led in triples once and was third once
was third in runs scored once and fourth twice

According to a book in Spanish by Jose Crescioni Benitez, Cepeda's totals for his first four years are as follows:

AB.....713
H.......293
2B.......43
3B.......22
HR........9
avg....411
slg.....571

That sure impresses me. After those first four years, it looks like he tailed off due to age. Did he play in Cuba, Mexico or the Dominican Republic to anyone's knowledge? It's hard to put him in solely on this, but if we could add a little confirmation to these marks, I'd say he's very interesting to say the least.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Bullet Joe Rogan

Unfortunately, another pitcher/hitter who confounds at least the willingness of the Baseball Think Factory guys to project his data. So I'm stuck with the subjective stuff with Negro League data again. He can point to a lot of support in that realm, though. Consider the following:
1) named a first team pitcher in the Pittsburgh Courier poll selecting Negro League greats;
2) named to the Baseball Think Factory Hall of Merit;
3) inducted into Cooperstown;
4) placed 11th in the SABR poll ranking Negro League greats; and
5) selected among the top six pitchers in Negro League history in a poll of Negro League Museum members.

He was also named the best Negro League pitcher by Bill James for three seasons: 1922, 1924 (tie), and 1925 (tie).

Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues has a nice writeup on him. A sizeable excerpt from it follows:
An outstanding pitcher with a tremendous fastball, a fine curve and good control, "Bullet" Rogan was a star for the Kansas City Monarchs [ed. one of the greatest of all the Negro League franchises, if not the greatest]. . . The right-hander was a smart pitcher who used a no-windup delivery, a sidearm motion, and always kept the ball down. In addition to his basic pitches, he included a forkball, palmball and spitter in his repertory. A durable workhorse . . . for a decade [who was] rarely . . . releived, this versatile player's value to his team was inestimable. He was also a superb fielder and a dangerous hitter with good power.

He had strong wrists and used a heavy bat. . . . [W]hen not performing on the mound, he played in the outfield to keep his big bat in the lineup. . . [H]e often batted in the cleanup position [ed. for a great team, no less!] and was credited with [the] league high [in] homes in 1922. He consistently hit over .300, compiling averages of .351, .416, .412, .366, .314, .330, .353, .341 and .311 for the years 1922-1930. On the mound [remember, in typically 70-90 game seasons] he registered seasons of 13-6, 12-8, 16-5, 15-2, 12-4, 15-6, and 9-3 for the first seven of those years. . .

[He joined] the Army in the fall of 1911. He remained in the Army through 1919, captaining baseball teams [with the limited opportunities for an Afro-American to make a living as a baseball player, he found a unique way to do it, as did Dobie Moore]. . . In exhibitions against major leaguers, Rogan is credited with a .329 average.

William McNeil on page 205 of Cool Papas and Double Duties added this:
[H]e pitched in the California Winter League with great success. [Ed. this league was one of the first integrated leagues in the continental US in the 20th century and could boast many major league players] Box scores uncovered to date credit him with an excellent 42-14 pitching record a .362 batting average and 30 doubles and 19 homers for every 550 at-bats. Bullet Joe could do it all

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Mule Suttles

This man earned numerous accolades, including:
1) placed 14th in the SABR poll ranking Negro League greats;
2) selected to the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit";
3) selected as the second first baseman in a 1993 poll of members of the Negro League Museum;
4) selected as the 43rd best player of all time by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract;
5) selected by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract as the second best ever left fielder among Negro Leaguers (to Turkey Stearnes),
6) named by 70% of Negro League veterans polled by William McNeil for Cool Papas and Double Duties as worthy of Cooperstown; and
7) named by 88% of the Negro League historians polled by McNeil for CPDD as worthy of Cooperstown.

The guys over at Baseball Think Factory peg him as a career .300 hitter with 30-35 HR in a typical year, a .360 career OBP and .530 career slugging. They project him to get 2791 hits. The combination of that average, that many career hits and slugging is a sure recipe for Cooperstown. Their research shows him with 56 Black Ink points in the Negro Leagues and 145 Gray Ink points in those leagues. They also project him at 370 career WS, 148 best five consecutive and top three of 36, 35 and 29, while Stargell had career win shares at 352, 126 WS in his best five consecutive years, and a best three of 44, 31 and 28. Really, except for the fact the Mule was a righty and Willie a lefty, they're a heck of a match.

Those numbers are well under the marks he racked up in the 79 at bats he had against major league pitchers. He got 31 hits for a .392 average--and it was a very loud .392, with 11 homers!

I should point out the projection points to a man well worthy of a plaque in Cooperstown. No major leaguer with 2500 career hits and a .500 or better slugging average has failed to be inducted to Cooperstown after getting his chance with the voters. Further, only one man with more than the Mule's projected 2791 career hits has not been enshrined--Harold Baines with 2866. Baines was a fine player, but not in the Mule's class (289/359/465). We could carry it to win shares, where Baines has 307 career, 108 for best five consecutive and a top three of 25, 24 and 22. Again, good, but nearly as good as the Mule.

Furthermore, the latest Bill James Historical Abstract lists him as tied for the greatest player of 1926, and as the greatest player of 1931 and 1941. He might well have won more if Josh Gibson hadn't taken five such titles and Buck Leonard two in that period.

From Cool Papas and Double Duties by William McNeil, pp. 115-117
Suttles . . .[was] 6 ' 4", and packed a solid 230 pounds on his rugged frame. Fortunately for his opponents, he didn't have a mean bone in his body. He was a gentle giant, a good-natured fellow who enjoyed life. . .

Mule Suttles brought excitement to the game of baseball, especially to the home fans, who would chant "kick, Mule, kick" whenever he came to bat in a critical situation. And . . . often. . . Mule would respond by "kicking" one out of the park. He was a good low-ball hitter and a good curve ball hitter, who loved nothing more than to extend his arms and cut loose with an all-or nothing swing. . . .

Suttles went on to play 18 years in the Negro Leagues, finishing with a .341 battiong average, the fifth-highest average in Negro league history for players with more than 2000 at-bats. . . . He also hit 237 home runs [ed. most in Negro League history], an average of 40 homers for every 550 at-bats. And he didn't stop there. He pounded major-leaue pitchers for a .341 average and 10 home runs in 170 plate appearances in exhibition games. . .

Suttles played in the California Winter Leagues [ed the first integrated league in North America in the 20th century--many major leaguers played there, too] several years, where he literally destroyed major league and high minor league pitching. Partial statistics credit him with a .378 bating average and 64 home runs in just 450 at-bats, [which] would equate to 77 home runs for every 550 at-bats

Folks, that is one great player, one who clearly deserves a spot in the BBF HOF.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Estimated Win Shares from Baseball Think Factory for Negro Leaguers already in the BBF HOF

The prime person doing this over this goes by the name Chris_Cobb. His work is very stat oriented, but well thought out IMO. His last posts (he sometimes tweaks them several times to get what he considers the most accurate possible results) or those he indicates general agreement with are the ones I prefer when available.

Unfortunately, he doesn't do it for all of even our HOF candidates. I'll indicate that. Most of them he does, and that gave me enough info to think I can reasonably place the Negro Leaguers all in context to their major league peers. Of course, the Negro League data these estimates are based on is incomplete, and it is possible that with more info, these assessments will change.

Anyway, here goes:

Satchel Paige: no estimated win shares or on career major league stats. I placed him as the top Negro League pitcher, considering he pitched effectively in the majors the last six years of his professional career when he was in his forties. I placed him just below his contemporary of Lefty Grove.. The reason I went with that is the differing use patterns from deadball days, and Grove is at the top of the post 1920 era pitchers.

Martin Dihigo no estimated win shares nor on career major league stats. Guys with his diverse skills as a pitcher and hitter drive the guys making these estimates nuts. They don't think he would have pitched in the majors, which may well be true. They suggest Al Kaline as a comp, which is again reasonable. I gave him a slight boost up from Kaline for his pitching to bump him up over Paul Waner.

Oscar Charleston again, no estimated win shares nor an estimate of career major league stats. He has to go below Mays since his peak wasn't as long and he's otherwise a rather comparable player. Except for the switch hitting, so is Mantle--but Mantle's injuries shortenend his career. I have to put Oscar ahead of him, and that's what I did. Is credited with 54 Black Ink points in the Negro Leagues and 174 Gray Ink points

Smokey Joe Williams 492 career WS, 154 for best 5 consecutive, best three of 35, 34, and 33. Estimated at 377-300 record in 5100 IP

Buck Leonard: 366 career WS, 155 for best 5 consecutive, best three of 32, 32, and 32. Seen as 308/417/476 for his career if in the majors. Credited with 22 Black Ink points and 105 Gray Ink points. Estimated at 2255 career hits.

Josh Gibson: 468 career WS, 169 for best 5 consecutive, best three of 41, 40 and 34. Seen as a 327/431/595 hitter in the majors for his career. Estimated at 2164 career hits.

Cool Papa Bell: 419 career WS, 116 for best 5 consecutive, best three of 26, 24 and 24. Seen as 297/365/382 for his career if in the majors. Estimated at 2846 career hits.

Ray Dandridge: No esitmated win shares or career major league stats. Was a .350 -.360 range hitter for his career in the Negro leagues, and the standard discount is about 6% of average. that puts him in the high .330s. He's reputedly excellent at everything but power, and had a long career. The first third baseman I felt comfortable putting him ahead of was Frank Baker, who had little power, wasn't reknowned for his glove work, and missed a couple of whole seasons in a shorter career--and didn't hit as high as .330 for his career. Yes, Baker did it in a deadball context, but my gut says Dandridge wins that comparison.

Cristobal Torriente: Have only win share estimates of 379 for his career, 160 for his best 5 consecutive and top three of 38, 36 and 36.

Turkey Stearnes: His estimated stats for the majors are 326/393/537 with 3190 career hits. The suggestion was this is similar to Mel Ott, a contemporary, and I agree. Stearnes also scored 51 Black Ink points and 178 Gray Ink points in the Negro Leagues.

Pop Lloyd: His estimated average in the majors is .292, with 3411 career hits. He gets 490 career WS, 150 for his best 5 consecutive, and a best three of 37, 33 and 33.

Cristobal Torriente All we have is estimated win shares, which are 379 for his career, 160 for his best 5 consecutive and a best 3 of 38, 36, and 36.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Vic Harris--Negro League contributor

From Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of Negro League Baseball page 361:

He was combative with umpires which contrasted with
the generally quiet approach he used with his players, never saying too much and preferring to inspire them by example to give their maximum effort. Although he was not noted as a brilliant strategist the players responded to the fiery manager by giving good performances on the baseball diamond.

His methods were good enough to lead his Homestead Grays teams to seven pennants, five of them consecutively. He had plenty of talent on hand to help him do that. But one cannot ignore that great talents are often accompanied by significant egos. He was able to keep that talent with those egos focused on the goal of staying on top. He was also a good if not great player. In many ways, Joe Torre is a good analogy.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

C. I. Taylor--Negro League contributor

From Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, pages 763-764:

Acknowledged with Rube Foster as one of the two greatest managers of all time [in the Negro Leagues], contemporaries said that C. I. trained the players and Rube signed them. On the field, the master builder from Carolina was a strict disciplinarian and great teacher who brought out the best in his players . . . . In 1914, he . . . transferred his team to Indianapolis, where the club was sponsored by the American Brewing Company and called the ABCs. Immediately his baseball acumen was evident as he built and nurtured a team that was recognized as a perennial power . . . . Taylor knew how to handle men . . . . Taylor's brilliant career was abruptly terminated when he died at . . . age 47.

Notable accomplishments:
Won a championship in 1916
Signed Oscar Charleston, Dizzy Dismukes and Biz Mackey among others

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Ed Bolden--Negro League contributor

From pages 91-92 in Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues:

A gentlemanly little man, he worked in the Philadelphia post office, and was the owner of the two best-known Negro League teams in the Philadelphia area, the Hilldale Daisies and the Philadelphia Stars. A shy, quiet and modest man who preferred working in the background instead of in the spotlight, [he] is best known as the owner of the Hilldale team that won the first three Eastern Colored League championships in 1923-1925 and the 1925 [Negro] World Series over the Kansas City Monarchs. As the founder of the Eastern Colored League, he was responsible for player raids by eastern teams on the more established Negro National League.

He took over operations for [Hilldale] in 1916, when [it] was a semipro team. The team attained [Negro] major league status the following season and wond a championship in 1921; then came the Eastern Colored League and three straight pennants. He suffered a nervous breakdown in 1927, and without his leadership the league folded the following spring.

After he recovered, . . . he organized the Philadelphia Stars . . . . Bolden again raided other clubs for players, and entered the Negro National League in 1934, winning the pennant in the first season in the league. In the championship the team defeated the Chicago American Giants. He remained at the head of the Stars until his death in 1950.

In addition to contributions to black baseball as a team executive, he also served as an officer in three different leagues: the Eastern Colored League, the American Negro League and the Negro National League.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Frank Warfield--Negro League contributor

From page 815 of Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues:

He was a talented player with a fiery temperament.
[A]s a successful manager, [h]e proved to be a clever strategist, guiding Hilldale to consecutive Eastern Colored League pennants in 1924-1925 including a [Negro] World Series victory in the latter season. He also managed the Baltimore Black Sox to the only American Negro League pennant in 1929. His . . . temper made him quick to engage in arguments with umpires or to castigate a pleyer in view of spectators . . . . Regardless of his management methods, his results were good, and his success extended to Cuba, where he managed the 1924 Santa Clara team to the championship . . . . [One of the key moves he made in Hilldale was to move] Judy Johnson from shortstop to third base and put light-hitting but far-ranging and smooth-fielding Jake Stephens at shortstop.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Cumberland "Cum" Posey--Negro League contributor

From pages 636-638 Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues:

The man who could properly be called the father of the Homestead Grays, his association with the ballclub had roots reaching virtually to the team's inception, and his genius made the Grays a successful franchise. Beginning as a player, he rose through the ranks, proogressing to manager, booking agent, business manager and owner of the ballclub . . . .

[I]n 1912 Posey took charge [of the Grays] and began booking enough games to permit the players to devote all their time to playing baseball.

Within the the next decade the Homestead Grays were the biggest attraction in independent baseball . . . . As more teams appeared, they patterned their operations after Posey's Grays. Posey's dynamic leadership kept the Grays near the top ot the talent pool, and under his guidance they became a team of major-league quality and a dominant dynasty in the Negro Leagues

[Until 1929] Posey split his time between playing and managing [in addition to running the team]. In 1929 he ended his career as an active player and became a bench manager until turning the team over to Vic Harris in 1937 and concentrating on the business end of the Grays . . . .

[W]hen the [American Negro League] folded [in 1930], he returned [the Grays] to independent play, picking up some more stars, including Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson and Judy Johnson. . . .

Posey . . . had built a powerhouse by signing players from other teams, [but now] became the target for Gus Greenlee's similar tactics. Posey lost Charleston, Gibson and Johnson among other players to Greenlee's Pittsburgh Crawfords because he could not match Greenlee's salaries . . . . [With new financial backing] Posey . . . [eventually] lured Gibson back into the fold to form a dynamic power duo with Buck Leonard.

Posey continued to corral top players, keeping the Grays the class of the league [to the time of his death].

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

J L Wilkinson--Negro League contributor

From page 842 of Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues

A white businessman, he pioneered black baseball as the founder and owner of the Kansas City Monarchs, directing the team's destiny from . . . 1920 through the 1947 season. During this time the franchise had two dynasty periods, one in the '20s in the first Negro National League, and the other during the first decade of the Negro American League, beginning in 1937. During the interim, the Monarchs toured as an independent team . . . "scuffling" to remain solvent during the depths of the Depression. . . .

When [Wilkinson] first organized the Monarchs in 1920, Casey Stengel recommended several players from the 25th Infantry team . . . [including Bullet Rogan and Dobie Moore] and they formed a nucleus for his early teams.

Under Wilkinson's guidance the Monarchs captured ten Negro League pennants and two of the four Negro World Series in which they competed . . . .

During the Depression . . . Wilkinson helped pioneer night baseball, installing a portable light system on the beds of truck in 1930. The [purchase of this] system proved so successful that it . . . paid for [itself] during the team's spring training tour of the southwest.

After the color line in major-league baseball was eradicated, the Monarchs eventually sent 27 players into the major leagues, more than any other black team. Among those players were Jackie Robinson, Satchel Paige, Ernie Banks and Elston Howard . . . .

During his years with the franchise, Wilkinson traveled with the team and looked after the best interests of the players, providing the best accomodations available and compensating the players [well]. He was well liked and respected for his honesty by both his players and executives from other teams.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Frank Grant

Unfortunately, the Baseball Think Factory guys don't have any tremendous help in the data end of things, at least in terms of projections. I will give a biographical sketch drawn from page 331 of Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, and then add a post #44 on this page http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primer/blogpen_discussion/all_time_negro_leagues_all_stars/P100/ by a person calling himself "favre" at Baseball Think Factory who presents what I regard as a persuasive argument on Grant's behalf.

Biography

This second baseman was one of the most outstanding black professional ballplayers of the 19th century. Exceptionally quick afield and with a strong arm, he was [often compared to Fred Dunlap and Bid McPhee, both of whom he bested in hitting when all three were young players in the International League at the same time] . . . During his . . . career, the middle infielder played with the top black clubs of the era, including the Cuban Giants, New York Gorhams and the Philadelphia Giants. He also played with many teams in organized baseball [in places where the application of the color line was not enforced]. He was a consistent .300 hitter with power, a fast baserunner [and] an outstanding fielder.

Now the promised argument by "favre":

I want to re-state the arguments for Grant's induction into the Hall of Merit. I say "re-state" because I didn't originate them. I just want to present them in what is perhaps a new way, including objections (which also did not originate with me). I don?t necessarily agree with the objections, but I want to list them fairly. If you feel I have not done so, please write your own.

1. The statistics we have for Frank Grant are terrific. You can find them on MattB's excellent post (#122 on the Negro League stars thread). We have info for 458 games. In 150 games, he averaged .337 BA, 130 runs, 210 hits, 40 doubles, 10 triples, 10 home runs, 50 stolen bases, all while playing second or third base.

Objection: We have no real context for these statistics, so it?s hard to compare them with the achievements of other players. Was he really better than Cupid Childs? Hard to say without some kind of statistical context.

2. He played for 18 years, which is longer than many other players on the ballot. Longevity is one indicator of greatness, though not a sole or even necessary one.

Objection: While he may have played 18 years of professional ball, this does not mean he would have played for the same length of time in the NL had he been allowed to do so. We can?t just assume he?s Bid McPhee. Longevity arguments are not as important to voters who value peak.

3. The statistics we do have are from the beginning of Grant's career, possibly at age 18, more likely at age 21. They do suggest a trajectory for a star player; the fact he played for eighteen years seems to confirm that.

Objection: There were a number of very young players putting up outstanding numbers in professional ball during this period. Too much of Grant's career is shrouded in mystery to be certain that he was a comparable player to McPhee, Childs, etc.

4. Subjective evidence. One Buffalo writer said that Grant was the best player the city had ever seen, surpassing Pud Galvin, Dan Brouthers, Jim O'Rourke, and Hoss Radbourn.. Sol White suggests that Grant was not only one of the best African-American players, but one of the best players of the nineteenth century.

Objection: Subjective evidence is, by its own definition, subjective. White should be lauded for his history, but he certainly wanted to present African-American players in the best possible light.

5. There seems to be a consensus that Grant was the best African-American player before at least 1900. Fans of Sol White have recently challenged that, but White himself gave Grant that title. Given that there were a number of African-Americans were playing ball, it seems probable that the best one would be one of the top thirty or so players of the 19th Century and, therefore, a worthy HoM candidate.

Objection: The population of northern blacks, while growing in the 1890s, was still not a high percentage of the population. While everyone in this group wants to give African-american players their due, this argument smacks of tokenism. White may have been the best player anyway.

6. The 1880s-90s did not produce a large number of outstanding second basemen. Stay with me in this argument for a second. While Bid McPhee and Hardy Richardson are worthy HoM?rs, and while Cupid Childs deserves consideration, they weren?t so good that it seems unlikely that Grant was their peer. If Grant had been a first baseman, we?d be comparing him to Cap Anson and Dan Brouthers and Roger Connor?those are HIGH standards of comparison. I don't know about you, but I would be shaking my head and going, "No, no, it's unlikely that he was as good as ABC. That means he was, at best, the fourth-best first baseman of the era." The best second baseman of the period is McPhee; great player, but not so great that he likely leaves Grant in the dust.

Objection: I doubt many of you like this argument much. So what if Grant didn?t play against Nap Lajoie (well, actually he did, at the end of his career) or Rogers Hornsby. That doesn't make Grant a great player.

Maybe you can think of other arguments, but as far as I can tell, that sums it up. None of the arguments produce a smoking gun that says "Grant was a great player"; all of the arguments are circumstantial.

However, notice that there are SIX of them. There are six circumstantial arguments that suggest Grant was a great player. All of them have reasonable objections, but you have to object to six arguments.

Now let?s show the evidence that Grant was NOT a great player:

None.

Think about it. There is NO evidence we have that suggests Grant was not a great player. We have statistical evidence, for example, that shows Tommy McCarthy was not a great player, despite the opinion of some HoF Veteran?s Committee. We DON'T have the same evidence for Grant (if there is some out there, please show me). We know: 1. The statistics we have for Grant are terrific 2. He played for a very long time 3. His peers suggested he was a great player 4. He played at a position where there was not a significant number of outstanding players from 1885-1895. The evidence we do have does not raise a red flag against Grant.

Now, there is still a good argument for the case against Frank Grant: we don't have enough statistical evidence. The prime of his career is simply unknown to us. Like the evidence in favor Frank Grant, it's circumstantial. The argument doesn?t prove that Grant WASN'T a great player. It just says we can't really prove that he was, and that ultimately the burden of proof is on Grant to show that he is worthy of indcution to the HoM.

Well, we certainly don't have a lot of statistical evidence proving Grant's greatness, though we do have some. Still, to dismiss Grant as a great player, you have to say: 1. the statistics we have mean nothing 2. the fact that he played for eighteen years means nothing 3. the fact that he tore up the IL at age 21 means nothing 4. the opinions of people who saw him play mean nothing 5. the fact that he was likely the best African-American player of the 19th Century means nothing 6. the fact that he played at a position where there was not a lot of outstanding players in the era means nothing.

You might be able to do that. I can't, particularly since the reason we don't have much statistical evidence on Grant is that he was excluded from play on the basis of his skin color.


Favre's argument seems to have helped over at Baseball Think Factory, where Grant is now a member of their "Hall of Merit"

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Home Run Johnson

Another pre 1920 Negro Leaguer, and therefore one I have to rely solely on the more subjective records to justify. Pages 434-435 of Riley's Biogrpahical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues is the source of this biography:

In a career that started before the turn of the century, Johnson was a right-handed slugger in the deadball era . . . . [H]e starred with some of the most outstanding clubs of the era, including the 1903 Cuba X-Giiants, the 1905 Philadelphia Giants, and the 1909 Brooklyn Royal Giants before joining . . . Rube Foster's Lincoln Giants in 19193 . . . .[S]hortstop was his best position, [but when teamed with Pop Lloyd] Johnson used his versatility to shift across to the keystone sack. . . .

The star infielder was also a winner in Cuba, captaining the Havana Reds to a winter league championship, and became the first American to win a batting title on the island. During his five years there he averaged .319 . . . .

Johnson was a natural hitter, and his confidence, patient pitch selection and superior batting eye enabled him to hit all kinds of pitching. A smart batter, he was cool under pressure. [From 1910 to 1913 he recorded averages against all oppositon of .397, .374, .413 and .371--and this was in a deadball game]. . . . A line-drive hitter, Johnson placed an emphasis on making contact rather than swinging for the fences and, playing in the deadball era, his power was comparable to that of the Athletics' Frank Baker.


I also find it persuasive that the Baseball Think Factory guys inducted him into their "Hall of Merit"

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

In the course of this thread, and particularly in the next few posts, I use several sources I want to ensure I credit. One is the poll on Negro League greats taken from members of the Negro League Museum. I relied on William McNeil's report on the results of that poll on page 196 of Cool Papas and Double Duties, page 196.

I've also used the stats on Negro Leaguers versus major league pitchers in exhibition games given in post #4 in this thread: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=16566

Also, see post #100 for the source of the Baseball Think Factory projections.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Willie Wells

He has plenty of support among observers, including:
1) enshrinement in Cooperstown;
2) named second team shortstop (to Pop Lloyd) in the Pittsburgh Courier poll;
3) 11th in SABR poll of Negro League greats;
4) selected by Bill James as the second best shortstop in Negro League history (again to Pop Lloyd) in his latest Historical Abstract;
5) selected by Bill James as the 86th best player of all time in his latest Historical Abstract;
6) in the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit". There they consider him a close match in overall contributions to Luke Appling (more about that later); and
7) selected as the first team shortstop in a 1993 poll of Negro League Museum members.

The Baseball Think Factory projections see him as a 294/371/425 career hitter with 2839 career hits. There is only one retired player with more hits not in the HOF, Harold Baines at 2866, and he was an outfielder/DH, not a shortstop. The top shortstop in hits not in the Hall is Bill Dahlen, with 2457. I think that leaves little question he belongs in the Hall. But where to rank him?

Looking at the projected win shares may help. The Baseball Think Factory guys have him with 397 for his career, 131 for his best 5 consecutive, and top three of 29, 28 and 28. He's darned close to Appling (378; 141; 40, 29, 29), but I think just a tad below him. I would put him above the major leaguer I have immediately below Appling, George Davis (398;119;31, 29, 28).

He was a winner, part of 5 pennant winners in the Negro Leagues and 2 Cuban league champs. He also won an MVP award in Cuba. In 1942 he was "identified as one of the top five players in the [Negro Leagues} when prospects to go to the major leagues were discussed" Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 827.

He tattooed the major league pitchers he got to face in exhibitions, going 46 for 115 with 6 homers for a .369 average.

Just to round out his case, here's some biographical info from William McNeil's Cool Papas and Double Duties, pages 208-209:
Wells was an outstanding defensive shortstop with wide range, a sure glove, and an accurate throwing arm. He offset a lack of strenght in his throwing arm with quick reflexes and a fast release . . .

[H]e was more than a glove, however. He was one of the top hitters in the league, with a career batting average of .328 . . . [who] hit the ball with authority. He led the league in home runs in 1929 . . . .

Wells also starred in other leagues . . . [I]n Mexico . . . he hit .323 . . . He spent the winter months playing ball either in the Cuban Winter League or the California Winter League. He played seven years in Cuba, compiling a batting average of .320, . . . [leading] the league twice in home runs. . . . He also tormented white pitchers [many of them major leaguers] in California for eight years, batting .301.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Louis Santop

He has plenty of support from observers:

1) Bill James names him the second best catcher in the Negro Leagues in his latest Historical Abstract;
2) Named as a third team catcher in the Pittsburgh Courier poll;
3) came in 22nd in the SABR poll attempting to rank Negro League luminaries;
4) selected to the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit"; and
5) 76% of Negro League historians polled for Cool Papas and Double Duties named him as worthy of Cooperstown.

The records we have for him against major leaguers in exhibitions indicate he went 18/56 (.310) with no homers.

The Baseball Think Factory guys went straight to win shares for him, so I will have to follow that lead. They tab him at 299 career WS, 133 best 5 consecutive, and a top 3 of 36, 27 and 25. Those win share numbers are comparable to Dickey (314; 132; 33, 27, 27) and Mickey Cochrane (275; 142; 31, 30, 28), but I'd place Santop a hair behind both.

Bill James said this about Santop on page 180 of his latest Historical Abstract:
A huge left-handed power hitter who was a superstar in the Walter Johnson era. A genial, easy-going man . . . immensely popular with the fans. Good defensive skills . . . a good arm and, at 240 pounds, a world beater at blocking the plate.

Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 695, also describes him as the "biggest drawing card in black baseball" when he was in his prime.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Jud Wilson

He has a solid array of accolades to point to:
1) He's been selected to the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit";
2) He finished 26th in the SABR poll which attempted to rank Negro League luminaries;
3) he was named as both the third team first baseman and the third-team third baseman in the Pittsburgh Courier poll; and
4) he was named as a Hall of Fame caliber player by 80% ot the Negro League historians polled for Cool Papas and Double Duties.

The data we have on Wilson against major leaguers in exhibitons shows 31 hits in 86 at bats with 3 homers, a .360 average.

The Baseball Think Factory guys project Wilson as a career 336/431/447 hitter with 2845 career hits. That projection puts him behind only one man who has become eligible for Cooperstown who is not in: Harold Baines, with 2866 career hits. Baines was good, but not a comparable quality hitter 289/359/465 for his career, especially in terms of on-base ability. Another way of looking at it is there's only one eligible man with 2700 or more hits and a career average over .300 who isn't in Cooperstown. That one man is Al Oliver, a career 303/348/451 hitter with 2743 career hits. Oliver also loses out to the Wilson projection due to inferior OBP.

The BTF guys peg Wilson at 378 career win shares, a best five of 140, and top three of 34, 31 and 28. As a guy who favors career value, I'd put him above the excellent Ron Santo (322; 162; and 37, 36, and 32). If you are one who values peak over career, I'd say you should put him over Brooks Robinson (355; 130; 33, 27 and 25).

From pages 120-121 of William McNeil's Cool Papas and Double Duties:
Wilson . . . packed a solid 185 pounds on a squat 5' 8" body. He had massive shoulders and a huge chest that tapered down to a small waist, and short, bowed legs . . .

He led the . . . . Eastern Colored League in batting in his sophomore year, crushing the ball to the tune of .464. He followed with seasons averages of .394, .397, .358, .412, .375, .346 and .371 . . . [H]e [then] played two years with the Grays, hitting .362 and .370, before jumping to the Philadelphia Stars where he played for six years. All he hit in Philly was .354, .412, .309, .380 and .319. He added three more batting championships [in the two years he hit .412 and the one he hit .380}. . . . He also led the league in doubles, triples and home runs, once each.

When he retired from the Negro Leagues, he left behind a .354 lifetime batting average, the highest average for any player with more than 2000 at bats . . . .

Jud Wilson was primarily a hitter, but he could also handle himself in the field and on the bases. He had good speed and was an aggressive baserunner . . . . On defense, he played first base and third base, both acceptably. He was not flashy, and he was not graceful, but somehow he got the job done. At third base, he was noted for knocking balls down with his chest, then picking them up and throwing the runner out.

Jud Wilson made the annual trek south in the winter to play in the Cuban Winter League. He spent six . . . winters there and almost destroyed the pitching staffs [in that league]. He raked opposing pitchers for averages of .430, .333, .424, .397 and .363 . . . . In all, Wilson won two batting championships in Cuba (the two seasons over .400] . . . . He also led the league in runs scored twice, triples once, home runs once, and stolen bases once. His career batting average in Cuba was .372, which is the highest batting average in Cuban baseball history . . . .

He also played in the California Winter League against major league players during the winter of 1930-31 and he hit .469 in fifteen games. And he played one year in the Puerto Rican Winter League, where he hit .404 as a 45-year-old graybeard.

Overall, Jud Wilson hit .354 in the Negro Leagues with 30 doubles, 6 triples and 13 home runs [per 550 AB]. . . In Cuba, he averaged .372 with 27 doubles, 19 triples and 13 home runs [per 550 AB].

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Cannonball Dick Redding

The accolades for him include:
1) Finishing on the second team in the Pittsburgh Courier poll;
2) Finishing 21st in the SABR poll ranking Negro League luminaries; and
3) Receiving mention as HOF worthy by 80% of the Negro League historians polled for Cool Papas and Double Duties.

The Baseball Think Factory guys project him for a 230-177 record, which yields 183 Fibonacci win points. Their projection goes on to calculate he earned 270 career win shares with a best 5 consecutive of 120 and a top 3 of 40, 33 and 27. I'd say that puts him between Hal Newhouser (264 career, 157 best 5 consecutive, top three of 38, 35 and 33 and 177 Fibonacci) and Ted Lyons (311 career, 110 best 5 consecutive, top 3 of 30, 26 and 23 and 168 Fibonacci).

William McNeil in Cool Papas and Double Duties describes Redding as being 6' 4" and weighing 210. He also indicates Redding utilized a "deceptive back to the batter windup that kept batters from digging in." page 108.

From Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, pages 654 -655:
One of the great pitchers of black baseball, Dick Redding's overpowering speed earned [him] . . . the nickname "Cannonball" . . . . During his prime years in the decade of the 1910s, he maintained a position among the top pitchers in black baseball . . . . Redding was credited with 30 no-hitters against all levels of competition . . . .

A hard worker with exceptional stamina, in his prime years he often pitched doubleheaders two or three days in succession. Redding usually finished what he started . . . . Although generally calm and collected on the mound, especially when protecting a lead, he sometimes lost his composure when opponents jumped off to a quick start from errors by his teammates. . . .

The advent of World War I interrupted Redding's career while still at its peak. . . . [H]e relied almost exclusively on his fastball and would not hesitate to use it to know a batter down to assert his dominion.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Willie Foster

His list of accolades is rather impressive:
1) enshrined in Cooperstown;
2) selected to the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit";
3) on the first team in the Pittsburgh Courier poll; and
4) finished 18th in the SABR poll ranking luminaries of the Negro Leagues.

Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract indicates Foster was the best pitcher in the Negro Leagues in three different seasons, 1927, 1931, and 1932. The Baseball Think Factory guys calculate that he earned 49 Black Ink points in the Negro Leagues and 97 Gray Ink points.

The Baseball Think Factory guys project him as deserving of a 212-136 record, worth 205 Fibonacci win points. They also project him at 254 career win shares, 131 in his best 5 consecutive, and top three of 33, 28 and 27. In my opinion, those marks are deserving of a slot between Ted Lyons (311 career, 110 best 5 consecutive, top three of 30, 26 and 23 and 168 Fibonacci) and Jim Bunning (252 career, 100 best 5 consecutive, top three of 30, 27 and 26 with a Fibonacci of 163).

William McNeil on page 203 of Cool Papas and Double Duties says Willie Foster "is generally considered to be the greatest left-handed pitcher in Negro league history."

Fom Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 292:
Willie Foster was a pitching star for the Chicago American Giants for over a decade. With near-perfect control and a wide assortment of pitches, [many] delivered with the same motion, the tall left-hander was at his best when the stakes were the highest. With a crucial game to win, Willie was the kind of pitcher a manager wanted on the mound. He was a smart pitcher who knew how to get the most out of his vast repertory of pitches, which included a blazing fastball, a fast-breaking drop, a sidearm curve, and a masterful change of pace.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Leon Day

He's got some useful accolades:
1) enshrined in Cooperstown;
2) 16th in the SABR poll ranking Negro League luminaries; and
3) among the top 6 pitchers in a poll of members of the Negro League Museum.

The Baseball Think Factory guys haven't done his stats yet that I've seen, so I can't help there. I think it is useful to note that Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract indicates Day was the best pitcher in the Negro Leagues in both 1937 and 1946. I also think it useful to note he is tied with Hilton Smith as the pitcher who pitched in the most Negro League All-Star games with six.

I think Smith belongs, but I couldn't comfortably place him with the starters, so I made him a reliever. I'd put Day above Smith, but below Willie Foster. The dart board stab at a far ranking for him is halfway between Foster and the end of the queue.

William McNeil at page 205 of Cool Papas and Double Duties , Day had the sixth highest winning percentage in the Negro Leagues among pitchers (I don't know the minimum number of decisions, sorry).

From Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 223:
[A} consistently outstanding pitcher in the Negro National League during the late 1930s and 1940s, Leon Day was a heady pitcher whose money pitch was his fastball. The Newark Eagles' ace right-hander had a good curve and change of pace to complement his speed. A strikeout artist, he holds the strikeout record in the Negro National League, the Puerto Rican League, and the East-West All Star game.

Not only was Leon a great pitcher, but he was also a fast base runner . . . a good fielder [regarded as the best fielding pitcher in the league] . . . a [solid] hitter . . . and a recognized team leader (and one of the most respected and best-liked players on the club).

With the exception of catcher, the versatile athlete [fielded] every position well, and when not on the mound often started at second base, in center field or pinch hit.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Pete Hill

He has some significant accolades to his credit, including:
1) Selected to the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit"
2) Selected as the second team left fielder in the Pittsburgh Courier poll; and
3) Named by 70% of the Negro League historians who have done significant work on the pre 1920 era as worthy of a spot in the Hall of Fame (7 of 10).

In the book Turkey Stearnes and the Detroit Stars, Richard Bak credits Hill with a .344 average with 9 doubles, 6 triples and 5 homers in 215 at bats in 1921 and 1922, when Hill was 41 and 42 years old! He also hit for a .307 average in Cuba.

The Baseball Think Factory guys compared him to Max Carey, and I'll go with that as my basis for ranking him.

From Riley's Biographical Encyclopedai of the Negro Leagues, page 381:
A left-handed batter, Hill was a great hitter, both for average and power. An amazingly consistent line-drive hitter who used the entire field and excelled in bunting for base hits, he was a superior contact hitter with a near perfect eye for the strike zone and seldom struck out. . . .[T]he first great outfielder in black baseball history. . . .

Hill was a complete ballplayer and . . . could field and run the bases as well as hit. The star center fielder was one of the fastest outfielders in the game, fielded flawlessly, and had a deadly arm. On the bases, he was a very fast, graceful runner and a good base stealer. But more than that, he . . . upset pitchers and infielders [when he was on the basepaths] like Jackie Robinson was to do . . . later. He was describes as a "restless type, always in motion, jumping back and forth, trying to draw a throw from the pitcher."

[He was part of the Cuban X-Giants when whey were dominant, then part of the Philadelphia Giants'] consecutive championships in 1905-1906. . .[He then went to the Leland Giants with Rube Foster, and in 1910, he again followed Rube, becoming part of the] cast the comprised the greatest talent in black baseball at the time . . . Hill, a smart ballplayer whose studied approach to the game made him Foster's choice as team captain . . . .[Hill outhit Pop Lloyd on that great 1910 squad, and at least arguably was its MVP].

Hill provided responsible leadership [during] his brilliant 27-year career.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Biz Mackey

He has plenty of accolades to point to:
1) Named as one of the two first team catchers in the Pittsburgh Courier poll;
2) came in second among catchers in a 1993 poll of members of the Negro League Museum;
3) finished 17th in the SABR poll ranking Negro League luminaries;
4) named the third best Negro League catcher of all time by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract;
5) received mention as worthy of the Hall of Fame by 82% of Negro League veterans polled in Cool Papas and Double Duties; and
6) received mention as worthy of the Hall of Fame by 100% of Negro League historians polled in Cool Papas and Double Duties.

The data provided by 2Chance on his performance against major leaguers shows Mackey getting 16 hits in 49 at bats with no homers for a .326 average.

The Baseball Think Factory guys project him as a career 301/359/393 hitter with 2495 career hits. There are only 5 or 6 major league players whose primary position was catcher who got over 2000 hits. I have to fudge, because some consider Joe Torre a catcher, but I don't since he spent so much time at other positions) and Ted Simmons, Fisk, Berra, Bench and Gary Carter. Of those catchers, only Torre averaged over .285 for his career, at .297. Personally, I think Torre is a HOFer, but as a manager, not a player.

The BTF guys project him at 290 career win shares, 105 in his best five consecutive years, and a top three of 25, 23 and 20. I can't put him ahead of any other catcher I think worthy of Cooperstown, but I think the evidence is strong enough to place him as the last catcher in my BBF HOF queue.

According to William McNeil in Cool Papas and Double Duties, pages 102-103:
Negro League veterans would say, "If you want to know what Biz Mackey was like [defensively] as a catcher, just watch Campanella. Campy is a clone of Mackey." . . .
Biz Mackey could play in any league. In 1924-1925 he played in the Cuban Winter Leagues and hit a solid .309. He also played at least 11 years in the Californiia Winter League, against white teams comprised of major league players, and batted .366.

From pages 502-503 in Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues:
Biz Mackey was an incredibly talented receiver who remained cool under pressure, and his defensive skills were unsurpassed in the history of black baseball. Considered the master of defense, he possessed all the tools necessary behind the plate, but gained the most acclaim for his powerful and deadly accurate throwing arm. He could snap a throw to second from a squatting position and get it there harder and with more accuracy than most catchers can standing up. Mackey['s] . . . pegs to the keystone sack were frozen ropes . . . arriving on the bag feather soft. . . .

Mackey was intelligent, had a good baseball mind, and employed a studious approach to the game. The ballpark was his classroom, and inside baseball was his subject of expertise. He relied on meticulous observation and a retentive memory to match weaknesses of opposing hitters with the strengths of his pitching staff. An expert handler of pitchers, he also studied people and could direct the temperaments of his hurlers as well as he did their repertories.

He . . . utilized good-natured banter and irrelevant conversation to try to distract a hitter and break his concentration at the plate, and was a master at "stealing" strikes from umpires by framing . . . pitches. Pitchers recognized his generalship and liked to pitch to the big, husky receiver who . . . was surprisingly agile behind the plate. This . . . coupled with his soft hands, enabled the versatile athlete to play often at shortstop, third base, or in the outfield, and although lacking noteworthy range, he proved adept at any position. He was also a smart base runner and, although not fast, pilfered his share of bases.

In his prime, the switch-hitting Mackey was [a dangerous hitter] . . . as evidenced by a .423 average . . . [in] 1923. Biz followed this campaign with averages of .337, .350, .327, .315, .327, .337, .400 and .376 for the years 1924-31.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

John Beckwith

His list of accolades is short, which I would ascribe as largely due to his prickly personality:
1) Second team in the Pittsburgh Courier poll in a "utility" role; and
2) finished 36th in the SABR poll ranking Negro League luminaries.

Everybody agrees the man could flat out hit. In 119 at bats against major leaguers, he hit .311. The Baseball Think Factory guys project that for his career he was a 333/387/522 hitter who would have amassed 2451 hits. There's no one who hit .300 for his career while slugging .500 for his career with over 2000 career hits who has failed to make Cooperstown. Big John bests those marks easily.

The BTF guys translate those career marks to 315 career win shares, 136 in his best five consecutive seasons and a top three of 30, 28 and 27. I'd say those marks put him behind Brooks Robinson (355 career; 130 best 5 consecutive; and top three of 33, 27 and 25) and Stan Hack (318 career, 140 best 5 consecutive; and a top three of 34, 33 and 31). However, those marks easily best Pie Traynor's 271 career, 119 best five consecutive and a top three of 28, 26 and 26.

William McNeil on page 95 of Cool Papas and Double Duties writes:
Beckwith was a big moody individual, standing 6' 3" tall and weighing in at a muscular 230 pounds, he was ready to fight at the slightest affront. he battled with his teammates, with players on other teams, and with umpires . . . . As a result, the powerful slugger moved around frequently, playing with no less tha 14 teams over a storied 23 year career . . . [Some, though] thought Beckwith's [reputation for a] bad attitude was a bum rap.


The fact he served as a manager would also seem to indicate his reputation was a bit overblown.

Riley on page 70 of his Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues says:
During his prime, Beckwith was regarded as one ot the top players by his peers, and he possessed sufficient versatility afield to play almost any position. However he did not excel [defensively] at any position.

Beckwith was amazing with a bat in his hand. Listen to this from William McNeil's Baseball's Other Stars, page 59:
His .356 career batting average, one of the highest ever recorded in the Negro Leagues, included a league leading .430 om 1930. He also captured two home run crowns in '30 and '31. Beckwith's extra base output was awesome, averaging 33 doubles, eight triples and 30 home runs for every 550 at bats [in his career].

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Hilton Smith

His list of accolades is nice:
1) enshrined in Cooperstown;
2) among the top 6 pitchers in a 1993 poll of Negro League Museum members; and
3) 26th in the SABR poll which ranked Negro League luminaries.

He pitched in six Negro League All-Star games, which ties him for the most ever in that category with Leon Day. He is also named as the best Negro league pitcher of 1939, 1941 and 1942 in the latest Bill James Historical Abstract. All of the above provide solid arguments for his greatness.

Then we get to the Baseball Think Factory projection: 174-123 career record, worth 153 Fibonacci win points. His win share projections are 207 for his career, a best 5 consecutive of 131 and a top three of 38, 36 and 28. The 38 and 36 win share years jump out at you, but nothing else does.

With those projected marks, it's hard to place him among the starters. I think a major problem is the relatively low number of decisions, at least in a Hall of Fame context. I believe a big reason for this is the fact he relieved Satchel Paige so often. More on that later. My resolution of the issue is to place him at the bottom of my queue of releif pitchers.

Jim Riley indicates Smith often pinch hit and played first base or in the outfield.

William McNeil's thumbnail on him at page 112 of Cool Papas and Double Duties has the follwing:
Hilton Smith is [best] known as Satchel Paige's relief man. For years, when Smith toiled for the Kansas City Monarchs, he would come into a game in the fourth or fifth inning to relieve Paige who had started. Paige was the number one drawing card in the league, and when he was scheduled to pitch, it increased attendance [dramatically]. So Satch would start about half the team's games to bring the crowd in, then leave after three or four innings . . .

The tall, slender right hander reportedly had the best curve ball in the league, and set it up with a rising fastball, a good sinker, an a change. He pitched both sidearm and overhand equally well and had good control.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Dobie Moore

He really doesn't have many accolades, because he only played seven years in the Negro Leagues. However, that misses the fact Moore was making a living for the excellent 25th Infantry team (more about this later) from at least 1917, several years before he joined the Negro Leagues. Truthfully, for an Afro-American of the day, his career path represents a realistic way of making a living as a ballplayer.

The Baseball Think Factory guys project him at 252 career win shares, starting in 1917, a best five consecutive of 155 and a top three of 36, 34 and 31. I think those marks leave him behind Barry Larkin (314; 130; and 32, 31 and 30), but ahead of Vern Stephens (265; 129; and 34, 32 and 27) and Lou Boudreau (277; 135; and 34, 32 and 30).

William McNeil writes this of Moore on pages 105 and 106 of Cool Papas and Double Duties:
"Dobie" Moore was a great shortstop whose brilliant career was cut short [by injuries suffered in an unfortunate incident] . . . [The 25th Infantry team] dominated the amateur sports world during the teens. The 25th included a number of players who would eventually leave the Army to [lead the Kansas City Monarchs to Negro League championships] . . . There was pitcher Bullet Joe Rogan, first baseman Lemuel Hawkins, second baseman Bob Fagan, and outfielders Oscar "Heavy" Johnson and Hurley McNair [in addition to Moore].

Moore . . . was a sensational all-around ballplayer with a deadly bat and a trusty glove [well before going to the Monarchs] . . . After Casey Stengel played an exhibition game against the 25th in 1919, he recommended Moore and several other players to J. L. Wilkinson, owner of the Monarchs . . . .

It didn't take Dobie Moore long to be recognized in the Negro National League. In addition to playing brilliant defense, he scorched the ball at the plate, with extra-base power. . . . [The 5' 11", 230 pound slugger hit .367 in 1922 and followed that season with averages of .358, .470, .326 and .381. In 1924, he captured the batting championship with his .470 average and also took the home-run crown . . . He was the Monarch's clean-up hitter for seven years.

[With the former 25th Infantry players leading the way] the Monarchs raced to three league titles and one [Negro] World Championship between 1924 and 1926 . . .

[On May 23, 1926, Moore became involved in a domestic dispute in which he was shot in the leg by his girlfriend and jumped off terrace to escape. It's unclear whether the shot, the landing from the jump, or the combination did the damage, but the bones in his leg were shattered into six pieces (See Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 566]

In any case, a magnificent baseball career ended abruptly. The cold statistics say Dobie Moore had a career batting average of .355. with 32 doubles, 14 triples and 15 home runs for every 550 at bats. He was, according to all accounts, one of the top four shortstops in Negro League history [with Lloyd, Wells and Lundy] . . . but Dobie Moore could outhit all of them [for average] and was the greatest power hitter of the four, making him the best all-around shortstop in the annals of Negro league baseball.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Alejandro Oms

The Baseball Think Factory guys haven't done Win Share estimates for him yet, but have estimated him as a career .330 hitter with about 2747 hits. They place him as a Hugh Duffy type outfielder. As I noted in the Jud Wilson comment, there's only one man with an average over .300 and over 2700 hits who isn't in Cooperstown, Al Oliver. Oliver has less power than the Oms projection, a lower average, and a significantly lower OBP. In short, there's good reason to prefer Oms to Oliver.

Oms' record in Cuba is most impressive:
--He played there 18 seasons (not counting a 1 AB stint in 1946 after 5 years of not playing)
--He is third in career batting average at .345
--He holds the record for the longest hitting streak, at 30 games
--He holds the record for the most consecutive seasons (8) with a batting average over .300
--He shares the record for the most seasons (11) with a batting average over .300
--He was the MVP of the 1928-1929 winter season
--He led the league in batting average 4 times, 2 of them consecutively
--He led the league in doubles three times
--He led the league in stolen bases once
--He led the league in runs scored once, and
--He led the league in hits twice.
Source: Who's Who In Cuban Baseball, page 66 by Jorge Figueredo.

Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues at page 588:
Oms was the centerfielder of the great outfield of the Eastern Colored League's Cuban Stars of the 1920s. He had exceptional range, and an accurate but not strong arm . . . . He also was a very fast base runner and a skilled base stealer but was best known for his batting ability. A left-handed batter, he . . . hit to all fields with power . . . . He began his Negro League career in 1921 and finished [in 1935] with a .332 average . . . in the United States.

He was a gentleman who controlled his temper, never arguing with an umpire. However, he did devise an unusual ploy to filter out anything he chose not to hear, pretending not to speak or understand English . . . .

A proven winner, he played on four [Cuban league] championship teams. For his remarkable diamond feats in his homeland, he was elected to the Cuban Hall of Fame in 1944.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

This review of Artie Wilson by AG2004 is too good not to include here:
My thoughts on how the color line affected Newcombe and a previous request about middle infielders of the 1940s led me to create two Keltner Lists out of curiosity. One is for Artie Wilson, and the other is for Marvin Williams.

I'll start with Artie Wilson. I can hear the question now.

Who was Artie Wilson?

As I’ll explain below, Wilson is very similar to Vern Stephens except for two points: (a) Wilson had only a cup of coffee in the recognized major leagues, and (b) Wilson was Black, which helps explain (a).

Vern Stephens was born on October 23, 1920; Wilson, just five days later, on October 28, 1920. Wilson was a star in the Negro Leagues during the mid-1940s, just as Stephens was a star in the (white) Major Leagues. After the 1948 season, the Birmingham Barons sold Wilson to the Yankees. However, Wilson refused to take a pay cut to play under hostile conditions in Newark, and signed with the Pacific Coast League’s San Diego Padres instead. Because the Yankees had the rights to Wilson, the contract with the Padres was voided, and Wilson soon ended up with the Oakland Oaks.

African-American players who were born around 1920 sometimes received tests by major league teams in the early 1950s. If they passed, they might, like Sam Jethroe for the Braves, have a handful of decent years. Wilson, however, went 4-for-22 with the Giants. This could just be bad luck; someone going 7-for-22 would be batting .300, and a difference three hits in 22 AB is within the bounds of chance. Wilson was sent down to the minors to make room for Willie Mays, and bounced around the minors for a few more seasons.

A player like Stephens, who had trouble in 1952, would be given the benefit of the doubt during a poor season and could hang around the majors for a few more years. It’s hard to find any major leaguer who didn’t go through a 4-for-22 slump sometimes. However, thirty-plus-year-old rookies usually don’t get the benefit of the doubt.

Therefore, due to integration coming in the middle of their careers, a player like Wilson or his contemporary Marvin Williams would have had a few years in the Negro Leagues, but nowhere near enough to be considered a legend. They would then have bouncd around the minors for a few years, while comparable players like Bobby Doerr or Vern Stephens would have their decline phase take place in the major leagues. Wilson's decline years would not show up in either the major league statistics or in the Negro League listings; they would be, for all practical purposes, invisible.

I’m using Dr. Chaleeko’s projection at baseballthinkfactory for this list. More information on Wilson’s career, including the numbers from the second half of his career, can be found at

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/artie_wilson

Case to Consider: WILSON, Artie

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

Wilson was the best player on the Birmingham Black Barons during the middle of the 1940s.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

By Chaleeko’s projections, Wilson might have been the best shortstop in baseball in 1947 and 1953. His win share projections would have beaten any National League shortstop every year from 1944 through 1948, as well as in 1953, and any American League shortstop in 1953 and 1954. He was considered the best shortstop in the Negro Leagues during his peak.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

He led Birmingham to the pennant in 1944 and 1948.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

He was bouncing around the minors, but Chaleeko’s MLEs show him of being major league quality for quite a while past his mid-1940s prime.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

No.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

The following are based on Chaleeko’s MLEs.

Career win shares, SS: Lou Boudreau 277, Joe Sewell 277, Dave Concepcion 269, Dave Bancroft 269, Stephens 265, Herman Long 265, WILSON 262, Jim Fregosi 261, Joe Tinker 258, Maury Wills 253, Dick Bartell 252. This is not BBFHOF territory.

Top three seasons: Jim Fregosi 89, Maury Wills 87, Rico Petrocelli 87, Johnny Pesky 87, Eddie Joost 87, Phil Rizzuto 86, Pee Wee Reese 85, Joe Sewell 84, Dave Bancroft 84, WILSON 83, Herman Long 83, Joe Tinker 76, Art Fletcher 76. Wilson is below the cutoff area.

Peak five consecutive seasons: Lou Boudreau 135, Jim Fregosi 135, Pee Wee Reese 134, Alan Trammell 132, WILSON 131, Barry Larkin 130, Johnny Pesky 130, Vern Stephens 129, Maury Wills 128, Eddie Joost 126, Joe Sewell 125, Rico Petrocelli 125, Ozzie Smith 123. This is very good company for Wilson.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

The information to answer this question is lacking.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

It’s hard to tell. Wilson’s cup of coffee with the Giants in 1951 could be explained by plain bad luck.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

No. I would consider Perucho Cepeda a better choice.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

His 1947 season projects to 29 win shares, which is close to being an MVP-type season; Chaleeko’s projection methods tends to smooth out a player’s career, so he might have been worth 30+ win shares that season had he been a major leaguer. But 29 WS is Wilson’s top season by the projection.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

He had seven All-Star-type seasons, which is a little low for a position player.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

During his peak, yes.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

In 1948, with Birmingham, he was the last player to have a .400 batting average while playing with a top professional league in North America.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Yes.

CONCLUSION: I don’t see Wilson as worthy of the BBFHOF. However, if you consider Vern Stephens and Joe Sewell as deserving of Hall of Fame honors, and if you consider Dr. Chaleeko’s method valid, I don’t see how you could keep Wilson out of your queue.

[jalbright]

Here's another fine workup by AG2004:
Marvin Williams is another player in a position similar to Artie Wilson. Williams did get a major league tryout - in 1945, when the Boston Red Sox, reacting to pressure from local civil rights leaders, looked at him, Sam Jethroe, and Jackie Robinson. Boston, of course, had no intention of signing any of them. Williams would then miss 1946 and 1947 due to military service. I couldn’t find any record of his receiving a major league tryout later.

The cases of Wilson and Williams raise an interesting issue. For Negro Leaguers of their era, many of whom didn’t receive fair trials with the major leagues once integration got underway, how much credit should they receive for minor league performances in the second half of their career? I see the issue as academic in Marvin Williams’ case – I wouldn’t put a white player who matched Dr. Chaleeko’s projections of Williams’ record in the BBFHOF anyway – but there are some voters for whom the issue might make a difference in this case, or in Wilson’s case.

Case to Consider: WILLIAMS, Marvin

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

He might have been the best player on the Philadelphia Stars in the mid-1940s.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

Chaleeko’s win share projections indicate Williams as better than the top National League 2B in 1944, 1945, 1948, and 1955. But he would never have been baseball’s best 2B.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

No.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

According to Chaleeko’s projections, Williams was able to play at a major-league level through at least 1959, even if he was bouncing around the minors.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

No.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

We’re comparing Dr. Chaleeko’s projections for Williams with the win share numbers of MLB 2B here.

Career win shares, 2B: Bobby Grich 329, WILLIAMS 316 (with service credit), Willie Randolph 312, Bid McPhee 305, Nellie Fox 304, Billy Herman 298 (plus war credit), Larry Doyle 289, Bobby Doerr 281 (plus war credit). This is a realm of BBFHOF members and vote-getters.

Best three seasons: Bobby Doerr 81, Tony Lazzeri 81, Dick McAuliffe 81, Jim Gilliam 81, Lou Whitaker 80, Buddy Myer 80, Steve Sax 79, Davey Lopes 78, Red Schoendienst 78, Willie Randolph 77, WILLIAMS 76, Gil McDougald 75, Danny Murphy 75, Del Pratt 75, Lonnie Frey 74, Jimmy Williams 74, Bill Doran 74, Pete Runnels 74, Tom Daly 73, Miller Huggins 72. This is not HOF territory.

Five consecutive seasons: Bobby Avila 124, Lonnie Frey 121, Dick McAuliffe 119, Davey Lopes 118, WILLIAMS 118, Johnny Evers 117, Lou Whitaker 116, Gil McDougald 116, Tony Lazzeri 115, Buddy Myer 115, Willie Randolph 114, Eddie Stanky 113. This is not BBFHOF territory, either.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

We don’t have any information for this question.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

No.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

No.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Williams never had a season which was worth 30+ win shares.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

By Chaleeko’s projections, Williams had nine seasons that project to 20+ win shares. That’s good for a position player.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

No. Chaleeko projects Williams as having just one season with 25 or more win shares over 154 games.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Other than the 1945 tryout, no.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

As far as I know.

CONCLUSION: Even if we don’t discount the fact that Williams never did get that major league tryout, Chaleeko’s projections indicate that Williams has a worse case than Lou Whitaker. Whitaker, for me, is borderline. The fact that Williams would have had just one season with 25+ win shares reinforces my decision that Williams doesn’t belong in the BBFHOF.

[Legacy]

Don't know how current this site is, but was scouting the net and found it. My grandfather is David Showboat Thomas. Many know that emphezema caused him to leave the game. Many do not know, and I have the proof, that it was my grandfather who was first to go to the majors' for training, but had to quit because of his illness. 'This' is what resulted in his not being the first afro-american to "play" in a major league game (opening the way for Robinson), but he was indeed the first afro-american to be "sent to" the majors.

A common blog around the web is that this was some racial publicity stunt. Photos and newsclippings show otherwise. His health, developing emphezema during training, was his nemesis. It is not my desire to mar or diminish Robinson's legacy in any way. But, it is past time that Boat, as we call him, received a Hall of Fame recognition. Thanks.

[Dogdaze]

Here is a short bio on David Showboat Thomas which I got from Pitchblackbaseball.com.

"As the nickname suggests, Dave Thomas was a fancy-fielding first baseman. He was regarded by some as the best fielding first baseman the Negro Leagues ever produced. He covered tons of ground and ate up everything in his general direction. Newspapers desribed him as "loose-jointed" because of his athleticism around first base.

Thomas was one of the many Negro League stars to come out of Mobile, Alabama (Double Duty and Alec Radcliffe, Hank Aaron, Satchel Paige, Bobbie Robinson).

Showboat was not a home run hitter but usually hit in the second or third slot and always hit well in the clutch

Thomas played with a Negro League All-Star team that won the Denver Post Tournament in 1937, the top semipro tournament in the country. He batted .355 in the 8 games.

Four years later, Thomas was player-manager for the Ethiopian Clowns and he again led his team to victory. The Clowns were down by four runs in the 9th, then scored 6 runs to win the game and tournament. Thomas made the All-Tourney All-Star team and won a wrist watch despite batting only .242. His incredible play in the field, and a well-timed home run proved every so valuable."

There's more info if you want to read it entirely, here is the link;

http://www.pitchblackbaseball.com/nlomshowboat.html