How would you feel...

[Astro]

How would you feel if you worked out day in and day out, you busted your ass everyday and then when you start to do well and all of your hard work pays off you get asked 1,000,000 questions about: "Did you take steroids?"

Now I'm not saying Bonds, or any other of the players accused of using steroids, didnt do it... but I'm sure that some of the ones who are accused actually didnt use them and worked hard...

How would you feel if all of your hard work was put aside as, "Just another 'roid head" and everyone badgered you day in and day out?

I'd be pissed off, I don't blame Bonds for tearing into the reporters because they ask the same stuff OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER.

Before you go off accusing anyone who hits over 30 HRs of using steroids, think before you do it.

[Hammerin Hank]

I don't care. I'd ask him every day myself as long as he doesn't get tested. And if he did get tested everyone would shutup and he wouldn't be bothered, would he?

[hiddengem]

I don't care. I'd ask him every day myself as long as he doesn't get tested. And if he did get tested everyone would shutup and he wouldn't be bothered, would he?

I believe he has taken tests, and passed every one of them, no?

[hiddengem]

How would you feel if you worked out day in and day out, you busted your ass everyday and then when you start to do well and all of your hard work pays off you get asked 1,000,000 questions about: "Did you take steroids?"

Now I'm not saying Bonds, or any other of the players accused of using steroids, didnt do it... but I'm sure that some of the ones who are accused actually didnt use them and worked hard...

How would you feel if all of your hard work was put aside as, "Just another 'roid head" and everyone badgered you day in and day out?

I'd be pissed off, I don't blame Bonds for tearing into the reporters because they ask the same stuff OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER.

Before you go off accusing anyone who hits over 30 HRs of using steroids, think before you do it.


It would get old after a while to tell you the truth. But I've been in those shoes, after training extremely hard during this offseason and offseasons in the past. Guys have hinted that people think I took roids. That was the ULTIMATE compliment.

[Hammerin Hank]

I believe he has taken tests, and passed every one of them, no?

That can't be accurate.

[RuthMayBond]

It would get old after a while to tell you the truth. But I've been in those shoes, after training extremely hard during this offseason and offseasons in the past. Guys have hinted that people think I took roids. That was the ULTIMATE compliment.Woo hoo, HG's gonna bust out with 40 dingers :clapping :clapping

[RuthMayBond]

That can't be accurate.Based upon . . . :confused:

[Hammerin Hank]

Based upon all the controversy surrounding the issue. Unless the media for some reason wouldn't believe those tests results.

[hiddengem]

Woo hoo, HG's gonna bust out with 40 dingers :clapping :clapping

If I do that, look for me in a Major League park near you :D

[hiddengem]

That can't be accurate.

West Coast would know.

[Mattingly]

Woo hoo, HG's gonna bust out with 40 dingers :clapping :clappingIf I do that, look for me in a Major League park near you :D

Yeah, but how would we find the ball? :D

Seriously, if Bonds were tested, the MLBPA would probably fight against it. Now they seem to realize that w/o any tests, the game is tarnished. Seems pretty strange that someone can claim to be clean, yet their union vehemently fights against any tests to confirm this. The union should've done a lot more in terms of testing to confirm any questions a long time ago.

I hear that Lance Armstrong is one of the most tested athletes around, yet he gets asks questions about doping and other no-nos.

[Hammerin Hank]

I hear that Lance Armstrong is one of the most tested athletes around, yet he gets asks questions about doping and other no-nos.

This is true. He gets tested between every stage in the Tour de France and after passing every time the European media writes about how he has to be on something.

[NickG]

Everyone is being tested -- to expect one player to do it publicly without requiring the same for every other player is unfair, no matter who the player is.

[hiddengem]

That can't be accurate.


Barry was tested last September and tested negative.

[west coast orange and black]

That can't be accurate.
bb was tested last season. i read it on the internet. :D

[west coast orange and black]

Originally Posted by hiddengem:
I believe he has taken tests, and passed every one of them, no?


That can't be accurate.
yes, it is, hammerman.

[Hammerin Hank]

Then I can't believe he's receiving so much heat over this issue.

[west coast orange and black]

West Coast would know.
bonds was tested last september. i read it on the internet... and in the sf chronicle... and espn.com...

seriously, bonds was tested on friday, 24 sept, before the night game against the hated dodgers.
(bonds went 1/3 with a solo shot off odalis perez that night :D
#44 of the season and #702 career... but the giants lost :ughh )

[sandlot]

Armstrong has been tested innumerable times. Marion Jones has been tested 57 times and counting. Never a positive. But, c'mon, let's remember what got much of this current brouhaha going -- it was the revelation that Balco (and presumably others) have been producing undetectable PED's. If they've truly been undetectable, what's the use of arguing about testing or results?

BTW, I had a long talk with a top sports physician, and he was adamant that no amount of steroids, HGH, etc., would assist a player in making contact with a baseball. Yes, more strength, and yes, possibly added quickness if coupled with appropriate training, but he insisted that the ultimate determinant was neither of these things: It's hand-eye co-ordination, and he says you've either got that, and the discipline to apply it, or you don't. Drugs just won't help. This guy is very respected, has zero connection to professional baseball and is himself a weightlifter. He also has a very interesting and fresh view on this controversy that I'm going to ask him to write up so that I can post it.

[Monarchs29]

There's never been any doubt that Bonds has terrific hand-eye coordination, he's proven that from the get-go. The 'Roids improves bat speed and strength.

I just have to wonder, how many of those HR's would have been warning-track, fly-ball outs, if he hadn't been using?

Sure, I'd give him some of the HR's he's hit over the past 3-4-5 years, but that would be mainly because of the short porch in RF at SBC Park. But, there's no way he'd be closing in on Aaron. In fact, I have doubts he'd be closing in on Uncle Willie.

[shlevine42]

BTW, I had a long talk with a top sports physician, and he was adamant that no amount of steroids, HGH, etc., would assist a player in making contact with a baseball. Yes, more strength, and yes, possibly added quickness if coupled with appropriate training, but he insisted that the ultimate determinant was neither of these things: It's hand-eye co-ordination, and he says you've either got that, and the discipline to apply it, or you don't. Drugs just won't help. This guy is very respected, has zero connection to professional baseball and is himself a weightlifter. He also has a very interesting and fresh view on this controversy that I'm going to ask him to write up so that I can post it.

Let's assume your sports physician is correct...that it all boils down to hand-eye coordination.

Just consider this:

From 1986 thru 1992, Bonds hit a home run every 20 AB.

From age 28-34 (from '93-'99) -- normally the prime of a player's career -- his HR frequency was one for every 13 AB -- a 35% improvement.

But Barry doesn't stop there. From 2000-2004...at ages 35-39... he has hit a HR once every 8 AB...a 40% improvement.

Normal human beings slow down with age. Eyesight dims. Reflexes are slower.

But not Barry.

I just don't find it reasonable that he can defy the laws of nature and have that skill improve with age.

[bbjunkie]

BTW, I had a long talk with a top sports physician, and he was adamant that no amount of steroids, HGH, etc., would assist a player in making contact with a baseball. Yes, more strength, and yes, possibly added quickness if coupled with appropriate training, but he insisted that the ultimate determinant was neither of these things: It's hand-eye co-ordination, and he says you've either got that, and the discipline to apply it, or you don't. Drugs just won't help. This guy is very respected, has zero connection to professional baseball and is himself a weightlifter. He also has a very interesting and fresh view on this controversy that I'm going to ask him to write up so that I can post it.

No one has questioned Bonds' hand-eye coordination, work ethic or good genes. He would probably be a good hitter if he conducted his life the way the Babe did. But, there is reason to be skeptical of his hr proficiency and bulking up in the past few years.

[Mattingly]

BTW, I had a long talk with a top sports physician, and he was adamant that no amount of steroids, HGH, etc., would assist a player in making contact with a baseball. Yes, more strength, and yes, possibly added quickness if coupled with appropriate training, but he insisted that the ultimate determinant was neither of these things: It's hand-eye co-ordination, and he says you've either got that, and the discipline to apply it, or you don't. Drugs just won't help. This guy is very respected, has zero connection to professional baseball and is himself a weightlifter. He also has a very interesting and fresh view on this controversy that I'm going to ask him to write up so that I can post it.
I think that with PED's, they're supposed to reduce the downtime from injuries and help to build up the muscular content. That lack of bodyfat is probably why bodybuilders like Schwarzenegger and the Soviet Olympic Weightlifters were always accused of this. For the former, it was greater muscle mass; for the latter, brute strength, since they often lifted 500lbs+ in the "clean & jerk (http://www.eng.auburn.edu/users/simonton/wl/cj.html)" some 25-30 years ago.

As to baseball, a truckload of steroids--enough to make me wired enough to light up a small community and glow like a neon light--I'd 100% agree that if you don't have the hand-eye coordination, nor for that matter, know how to hit the ball where the fielders aren't--you're not doing much damage offensively. However, for someone who's already excelled at this, it could certainly make a great thing into an excellent one. I would say that's the "Side B" to those who claim that the PEDs, in and of themselves, don't add anything to one's baseball abilities.

As to your doc, is he a bodybuilder, powerlifter (squat, bench, deadlift) or Olympic weightlifter (snatch, clean & jerk)?

[Mattingly]

Barry was tested last September and tested negative.
When and where? I must've missed this. Did the union object? Any links, I'd greatly appreciate it, as I'm sure would others.

[CyNotSoYoung]

I may not like Bonds as a person but that doesn't matter. He's payed to play baseball and entertain the fans and he does that. I know it happens all the time, but I am tired of people being tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion. The fact is that none of us knows for sure what Bonds has or hasn't done as far as steroids and if I was in Bonds shoes I'd be angry about being declared guilty without benefit of a trial.

[ndistops]

When and where? I must've missed this. Did the union object? Any links, I'd greatly appreciate it, as I'm sure would others.
I believe he was randomly tested (under the program) and he made a big show of it instead of keeping it quiet because he wanted to shut up the media when he tested negative. I don't know how he thought that a negative test would make up for his smoking-gun grand jury testimony, but that's what happened.

[west coast orange and black]

When and where? I must've missed this. Did the union object? Any links, I'd greatly appreciate it, as I'm sure would others.
wcoab post #18:
bonds was tested last september. i read it on the internet... and in the sf chronicle... and espn.com...

seriously, bonds was tested on friday, 24 sept, before the night game against the hated dodgers.
(bonds went 1/3 with a solo shot off odalis perez that night :D
#44 of the season and #702 career... but the giants lost :ughh )
...............................

but why would the union have objected, two-three? according to the work agreement in place in 2004...

[Staredge]

I hear that Lance Armstrong is one of the most tested athletes around, yet he gets asks questions about doping and other no-nos.

They get unannounced visits all year long. A refusal to take the test is yreated as a positive. Period. Lance was on his way out the door with his in-labor wife when they came knocking. The cup got filled before they left.

[Brian2944]

[QUOTE=Astro]....Now I'm not saying Bonds, or any other of the players accused of using steroids, didnt do it... but I'm sure that some of the ones who are accused actually didnt use them and worked hard...

How would you feel if all of your hard work was put aside as, "Just another 'roid head" and everyone badgered you day in and day out?...QUOTE]

I believe everyone has been falsely accused of something at sometime in their life, no matter how trivial a situation it may be. What was the first thing you did when this happened?? For me I would go ABOVE and BEYOND to prove my integrity. I see Bonds doing a lot of "car selling", but not taking any actions. If I were him, and I was innocent, I would do ANYTHING. I would somehow take a polygraph conducted by the Government, or have the media follow me to the doctor to take my daily drug screen. I would allow them to do what they want, because the truth always comes out.

Of course, innocent people shouldn't HAVE to do this, but its necessary. I think of it as if a police officer wanted to search me or my car because my car looked suspicious. I wouldn't mind at all because I have nothing to hide. Also, it would not limit his power to get the real crooks.

So If I'm a hard working athlete who sees other players getting stronger and better without the same hard work that I do, do what you have to do to acquit me and catch them.

[west coast orange and black]

" I would allow them to do what they want, because the truth always comes out."

"Of course, innocent people shouldn't HAVE to do this, but its necessary."

"I think of it as if a police officer wanted to search me or my car because my car looked suspicious. I wouldn't mind at all because I have nothing to hide."
all extremely dangerous for a free society to exist.
hop to it on your own, brian. but extremely dangerous for a society.

[west coast orange and black]

...So If I'm a hard working athlete who sees other players getting stronger and better without the same hard work that I do, do what you have to do to acquit me and catch them.
and this seems to me as though you believe that steroids contain pixie dust:
"here, take this and you will not have to put in hard work."

[Brian2944]

and this seems to me as though you believe that steroids contain pixie dust:
"here, take this and you will not have to put in hard work."

Try reading the quote again. "without the SAME hard work". No there is no magic "pixie" dust to steroids. Even steroid users need to work hard in the gym, but the hardwork/results ratio from steroid use, is in its own a "pixie dust".

Also,
About free society existing. If Bonds was required by law to "take a polygraph conducted by the Government, or have the media follow me to the doctor to take my daily drug screen" , then it would be a threat to free society. If you read my post again, you will see that I would VOLUNTEER to do what I had to do to prove my integrity. It would'nt be REQUIRED.

and the police search example is something I don't agree or disagree with, but I said I would'nt mind.

People don't trust one another. So unfortunately we sometimes have to do more than required to convince others. Ecspecially if those others are millions of fans.

[west coast orange and black]

ok, i went back and read again, brian. you situated yourself as a hard-working athlete ”who sees other players getting stronger and better without the same hard work that I do”. this is where i got the pixie dust idea. your latter post reads “Even steroid users need to work hard in the gym”, so now i understand.

you wrote “innocent people shouldn't HAVE to do this, but its (“allow them to do what they want, because the truth always comes out”) necessary.”
that you believe that it might be necessary to prove your innocence by signing away your rights is certainly dangerous for a free socity to exist. you are a thread in the fabric of society. you are not isolated. the slippery slope and the pressures of “hey, it’s good enough for brian, it oughtta be good enough for you” is extremely dangerous, i believe. maybe more importantly, i have the feeling that you might even [I]expect others to feel the way that you do about volunteering one’s rights away. as i wrote, though, your choice.

that bonds has chosen to not speak directly to the issue at hand is clssic bonds. this is no surprise to us. and that he is “not taking any actions” is also vintage bonds. he is simply being who he is, who he has always been, consequences or not. it’s not that he beats to a different drummer; there’s not even any music.

[Brian2944]

So your saying an innocent man that is publicly being found "guilty" of something he did'nt do should not use all the resources he can to prove his case? Because he thinks it might cause problems for society??

If it comes down to me going to the electric chair for something I didn't do, or make it hard on others who are accused, I'm not falling for something I did'nt do.

Like you said this is a free society, and in no way would I sign my rights away. But if I was in Bonds situation, and loving the game like I do, and approaching the most important record to anybody, and having young kids question my cheating because of the media, then I would do anything I could.
Of Course this is me.

In my eyes Bonds is on trial for baseball's "execution". And like you said, Bonds will be vitage Bonds. But I would sacrifice certain things (not all things) for something that is so special to so many people, including me.

[west coast orange and black]

Brian2944: So your saying an innocent man that is publicly being found "guilty" of something he did'nt do should not use all the resources he can to prove his case? Because he thinks it might cause problems for society??

If it comes down to me going to the electric chair for something I didn't do, or make it hard on others who are accused, I'm not falling for something I did'nt do.

>>> the court of public opinion and the court of law are different arenas for trying a case. so i think that bonds would be (literally?) singing a different tune if the court was not the papers rather with a robed judge.

Like you said this is a free society, and in no way would I sign my rights away.

>>> right on.

brian: But if I was in Bonds situation, and loving the game like I do, and approaching the most important record to anybody, and having young kids question my cheating because of the media, then I would do anything I could.
Of Course this is me.

In my eyes Bonds is on trial for baseball's "execution". And like you said, Bonds will be vitage Bonds. But I would sacrifice certain things (not all things) for something that is so special to so many people, including me.

>>> i have not ever met a person who loves the game more than bonds. maybe he is taking the route that he is not just because he is who he is, but also because he sees it as the only route for him to get from here to there.

he is intently focused on one thing: the san francisco giants winning the world series. should anything else be passed along the way, say, a home run title here, a batting title there, or 756, great. but those are merely brass rings. he's reaching for gold.

[Brian2944]

">>> i have not ever met a person who loves the game more than bonds. maybe he is taking the route that he is not just because he is who he is, but also because he sees it as the only route for him to get from here to there.

he is intently focused on one thing: the san francisco giants winning the world series. should anything else be passed along the way, say, a home run title here, a batting title there, or 756, great. but those are merely brass rings. he's reaching for gold."

I hope this is true for him, as it should be for every players goal, that is to win. Records and awards come second. Even though in my unproven opinion I think he has knowingly taken steroids, I hope if it turns out that if he was innocent, fans will be able to look past these times of accusations. As you can see from around this board, once people have their mind made up, its almost impossible to change it ;)

By the way, good debate, you made some great points.

[Astro]

Wow, one of my first topics when I joined... And this is still what is going on today... sad

[Hammerin Hank]

Yeah, I can't believe he hasn't thrown in the towel yet either.

[bluezebra]

How would you feel if you worked out day in and day out, you busted your ass everyday and then when you start to do well and all of your hard work pays off you get asked 1,000,000 questions about: "Did you take steroids?"

Now I'm not saying Bonds, or any other of the players accused of using steroids, didnt do it... but I'm sure that some of the ones who are accused actually didnt use them and worked hard...

How would you feel if all of your hard work was put aside as, "Just another 'roid head" and everyone badgered you day in and day out?

I'd be pissed off, I don't blame Bonds for tearing into the reporters because they ask the same stuff OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER.

Before you go off accusing anyone who hits over 30 HRs of using steroids, think before you do it.

Steroids, or other performance-enhancing substances, don't let an accountant crunch numbers any better. Or allow someone to flip hamburgers at a record rate.

If you're in a profession that puts you in the public eye, and where records are an integral part of the game, and you're physique and performance suddenly improves almost overnight, you better be ready for the questions.

Bob

[LouGehrig]

I don't care. I'd ask him every day myself as long as he doesn't get tested. And if he did get tested everyone would shutup and he wouldn't be bothered, would he?


How would you test for HGH? Since you CANNOT test for HGH, the greatest country in the world has a great document called the Constitution that has an addendum called the Bill of Rights that states one is innocent until proven guilty.

Americans do not have to prove their innocence. Accusers must prove their guilt.

So, how could one determine if a player were using HGH if there is no reliable test for HGH?

[Hammerin Hank]

How would you test for HGH? Since you CANNOT test for HGH, the greatest country in the world has a great document called the Constitution that has an addendum called the Bill of Rights that states one is innocent until proven guilty.

Americans do not have to prove their innocence. Accusers must prove their guilt.

So, how could one determine if a player were using HGH if there is no reliable test for HGH?

Have you ever been to court? You are NOT innocent until proven guilty. This isn't a land of fairy tales and make believe.

[Ubiquitous]

Actually in the court system you are innocent until proven guilty.

But that is besides the point, opinion is not the federal government.

The Bill of Rights does not apply to this issue. In this case one could very well have to prove ones innocence.

[Hammerin Hank]

Actually in the court system you are innocent until proven guilty.

Nope, you've never been to court then.

They also tell you that you have a right to a trial. Do you believe that also?

[Ubiquitous]

Nope, you've never been to court then.

They also tell you that you have a right to a trial. Do you believe that also?


Wrong on the first part

Yes on the second part


Go to a country that doesn't have standards like the American legal system and then you will find out what it looks like to be guilty and have to prove your innocence. There is no comparison.

[Hammerin Hank]

Wrong on the first part

Yes on the second part


Go to a country that doesn't have standards like the American legal system and then you will find out what it looks like to be guilty and have to prove your innocence. There is no comparison.

You're probably right. I've just been sodomized in court a couple times. Figuratively speaking.

[west coast orange and black]

is "innocent until proven guilty" the same as "not guilty unless proven guilty"?

the accused may be found "guilty" or "not guilty"... but never "innocent"... for good reason.

[Elvis]

How would you feel if you worked out day in and day out, you busted your ass everyday and then when you start to do well and all of your hard work pays off you get asked 1,000,000 questions about: "Did you take steroids?"

Now I'm not saying Bonds, or any other of the players accused of using steroids, didnt do it... but I'm sure that some of the ones who are accused actually didnt use them and worked hard...

How would you feel if all of your hard work was put aside as, "Just another 'roid head" and everyone badgered you day in and day out?

I'd be pissed off, I don't blame Bonds for tearing into the reporters because they ask the same stuff OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER.

Before you go off accusing anyone who hits over 30 HRs of using steroids, think before you do it.

Personally, it wouldn't bother me. If you spend any time at all worrying about what other people think of you, you're asking for trouble. Just live your life and if other people judge you it's thier problem, not yours.

[Hammerin Hank]

is "innocent until proven guilty" the same as "not guilty unless proven guilty"?

the accused may be found "guilty" or "not guilty"... but never "innocent"... for good reason.

That kind of thinking is exactly why "innocent until proven guilty" does NOT exist.

Important lesson of the day: no matter how insignificant the charge against you may seem, ALWAYS get a lawyer. Unless you want to give the judge permission to use the Constitution just to wipe his butt with.

[Hammerin Hank]

Personally, it wouldn't bother me. If you spend any time at all worrying about what other people think of you, you're asking for trouble. Just live your life and if other people judge you it's thier problem, not yours.

Have you been reading some Ralph Waldo Emerson lately? :D

[Williamsburg2599]

How would you feel if you worked out day in and day out, you busted your ass everyday and then when you start to do well and all of your hard work pays off you get asked 1,000,000 questions about: "Did you take steroids?"

Now I'm not saying Bonds, or any other of the players accused of using steroids, didnt do it... but I'm sure that some of the ones who are accused actually didnt use them and worked hard...

How would you feel if all of your hard work was put aside as, "Just another 'roid head" and everyone badgered you day in and day out?

I'd be pissed off, I don't blame Bonds for tearing into the reporters because they ask the same stuff OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER.

Before you go off accusing anyone who hits over 30 HRs of using steroids, think before you do it.
How would you feel if you lost your roster spot to a user?
How would you feel if your son started taking steriods because he saw the sucess a user had?
How would you feel if you lost to a team that you knew had users on it?

[Mattingly]

Not that I'm a fan of digging up old threads, but how often are these guys tested? What exactly have they been tested for? How come no big-name failures with all the hoopla surrounding PEDs?

[maximum jack]

Personally, it wouldn't bother me. If you spend any time at all worrying about what other people think of you, you're asking for trouble. Just live your life and if other people judge you it's thier problem, not yours.

That's a nice sentiment and all, but when you (and your family) are in the public spotlight, its not quite so easy. It also, if you believe it, gives you a blank check to break all of society's rules: "I don't care what you think about me, I'm going over here to rape, pillage and plunder."

[Mattingly]

That's a nice sentiment and all, but when you (and your family) are in the public spotlight, its not quite so easy. It also, if you believe it, gives you a blank check to break all of society's rules: "I don't care what you think about me, I'm going over here to rape, pillage and plunder."
The problem is that celebrities--and baseball jocks are certainly a big of this culture--are often held to higher standards. I can see where some merely want to live a clean life and have no obligations to do things someone else's way.

As to committing illegal acts, that's definitely a wrong thing. I wouldn't ask someone I don't know, celebrity or not, to live their life my way, and hopefully, they won't ask the same of myself either.

[Skin & Bones]

Not that I'm a fan of digging up old threads, but how often are these guys tested? What exactly have they been tested for? How come no big-name failures with all the hoopla surrounding PEDs?

Maybe the anwsers your looking for can be found here:http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=504642&postcount=755

[STLCards2]

How would you feel if you worked out day in and day out, you busted your ass everyday and then when you start to do well and all of your hard work pays off you get asked 1,000,000 questions about: "Did you take steroids?"

Now I'm not saying Bonds, or any other of the players accused of using steroids, didnt do it... but I'm sure that some of the ones who are accused actually didnt use them and worked hard...

How would you feel if all of your hard work was put aside as, "Just another 'roid head" and everyone badgered you day in and day out?

I'd be pissed off, I don't blame Bonds for tearing into the reporters because they ask the same stuff OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER.

Before you go off accusing anyone who hits over 30 HRs of using steroids, think before you do it.

If I was an intelligent human and in a high profile position, I would know that if I did something illegal or immoral, I would face a lot of scrutiny. Bonds knew if he got caught he would face hell from the public and media. Hopefuly, if I messed up bad and got caught, I would have the maturity to face the negative consequences for my negative actions without whining about how the world was out to get me. That is called integrity. I don't feel the least bit sorry for Bonds. Don't want the pesty questions? Don't want angry fans? Don't want people to hate you? Don't want to lose creds? Then don't do steroids. Very simple.

[Astro]

If I was an intelligent human and in a high profile position, I would know that if I did something illegal or immoral, I would face a lot of scrutiny. Bonds knew if he got caught he would face hell from the public and media. Hopefuly, if I messed up bad and got caught, I would have the maturity to face the negative consequences for my negative actions without whining about how the world was out to get me. That is called integrity. I don't feel the least bit sorry for Bonds. Don't want the pesty questions? Don't want angry fans? Don't want people to hate you? Don't want to lose creds? Then don't do steroids. Very simple.
And the point of this topic has went way over your head.... the point was if you worked out hard and DID NOT TAKE STEROIDS how would you feel if you were accused of doing so daily

[STLCards2]

And the point of this topic has went way over your head.... the point was if you worked out hard and DID NOT TAKE STEROIDS how would you feel if you were accused of doing so daily

Then why did you use Bonds as your example...somebody who did use steroids? Maybe your topic "has went" over your own head.

If you wanted to make a point about players who are being fasely accused, you could have used just about any good player in baseball, but this is just a disguised defense for Bonds thread.

[Astro]

Then why did you use Bonds as your example...somebody who did use steroids?
Has Bonds ever tested positive? If so please provide a link

[STLCards2]

Has Bonds ever tested positive? If so please provide a link

Told you this was just a thread to throw in a Bonds defense. Hey if you are one of the 6 people in America who don't think Bond's is a cheater, fine. But why come up with some altruistic thread about media and players' rights if all you want is people to believe Bonds is the victim. Just come out and say it.

[Skin & Bones]

Then why did you use Bonds as your example...somebody who did use steroids? Maybe your topic "has went" over your own head.

If you wanted to make a point about players who are being fasely accused, you could have used just about any good player in baseball, but this is just a disguised defense for Bonds thread.

Sosa or Clemens are good examples. Though anyone who thinks steroid user's aren't " hardworking " is grossly misinformed.

Bonds wasn't lying when he said his increase in production was because of hardwork, he was lying when he said he didn't use illegal drugs to amplify those workouts.

[Astro]

Told you this was just a thread to throw in a Bonds defense. Hey if you are one of the 6 people in America who don't think Bond's is a cheater, fine. But why come up with some altruistic thread about media and players' rights if all you want is people to believe Bonds is the victim. Just come out and say it.
A) You did not tell me anything
B) This thread was created a day after you joined this site, its not as if I just made randomly out of the blue last night
C) Provide a link
D) I was using him as an example, you are the one getting all bent out of shape when you can not provide a link to prove your side
E) It is going for anyone who is accused of taking steroids.... a current day example: Some people think Ryan Howard is taking steroids because he is hitting so many homeruns

[STLCards2]

A) You did not tell me anything
B) This thread was created a day after you joined this site, its not as if I just made randomly out of the blue last night
C) Provide a link
D) I was using him as an example, you are the one getting all bent out of shape when you can not provide a link to prove your side
E) It is going for anyone who is accused of taking steroids.... a current day example: Some people think Ryan Howard is taking steroids because he is hitting so many homeruns

You will never be able to prove Bonds didn't use 'roids...I will never prove he did. This isn't about that. I was responding to how you questioned my intelligence, " has went over your head", because I questioned your chioce of using Bonds as an example. When you posted this is irrelevant, as is the fact I can't find a link that proves his guilt. Inferring I wasn't smart enough to understand the thread is what I was upset about. Sorry for being a little too sensitive. I rarely do that around here.

[cardsfanatic]

When they bring WADA in to administer and govern the tests and convert to modern day testing methods of blood tests, then and only then will the suspiscion stop. The fact they use urine tests and do in-house testing [and we've seen how well baseball has policed itself, right? We wouldn't be here if they were guys of high moral ethical standards running the game] just leads people to scream "********" to their entire testing policy. And rightfully so.

So, if the MLB players want peace of mind and don't want to be asked about steroids constantly then at the next CBA meetings agree to a few things.

1) A 3rd party, INDEPENDENT of MLB and MLBPA -- preferabbly a reputable doping agency in the international community -- and let them run and adminitser the tests.

2) Allow blood testing and all modern testing to take place.

3) When a postive test comes back allow the testing agency to publicize it ala Cycling -- don't allow the MLB or MLBPA decide whethjer or not to come forward.

If you get a testing program like that in there -- and it's not much to ask, either when almost every international sport has those very testing guidelines -- then the suspicions and questions would cease. But as long as steroids stays an in-house issue with non-modernized testing [and like I said, the MLB has already proven it can't police itself] then the questions will continue.

I personally don't give two shakes who took what and when. So I'd be just as happy if there was no testing. But if players and people in the MLB are so fed up and frustrated with the topic then get a legit drug policy in there and a legit 3rd party testing agency and you'll take all of the ammo out of the loaded gun.

[Astro]

You will never be able to prove Bonds didn't use 'roids...I will never prove he did. This isn't about that. I was responding to how you questioned my intelligence, " has went over your head", because I questioned your chioce of using Bonds as an example. When you posted this is irrelevant, as is the fact I can't find a link that proves his guilt. Inferring I wasn't smart enough to understand the thread is what I was upset about. Sorry for being a little too sensitive. I rarely do that around here.
I only said that because I was saying what it was like if you did not take steroids and were accused daily of doing so, and in your post you were only talking about if you took steroids that you should admit to doing so

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

...Just consider this:

From 1986 thru 1992, Bonds hit a home run every 20 AB.

From age 28-34 (from '93-'99) -- normally the prime of a player's career -- his HR frequency was one for every 13 AB -- a 35% improvement.

But Barry doesn't stop there. From 2000-2004...at ages 35-39... he has hit a HR once every 8 AB...a 40% improvement.

Normal human beings slow down with age. Eyesight dims. Reflexes are slower.

But not Barry.

I just don't find it reasonable that he can defy the laws of nature and have that skill improve with age.

Not really important to this thread's topic, but I felt that I had to mention it. The source of the increase in HR/AB ration may lie elsewhere:

His HR/PA rate was actually 11.759... This is a more true demonstration of his actual homerun pace. He was walked alot in the early 2000's; and even though 306 out of 872 walks were intentional during that time, I'm certain that many more were pitchers pitching around him, trying to induce a bad swing or some other type of out.

Another statistical analysis:

His Games Played stayed relatively even through the '00-'04 span (range of 130-153). However, his AB's decreased from 480 in 2000, to 373 in 2004. In the 6 years previous, he had reached 500 AB's 4 times. The other two seasons were those in which he played only 102 and 112 games ('99 and '94 respectively). This decrease in AB/GP is another reason for this increase. While he was certainly improving, the HR/AB statistic might not be as valid as another stat you may find.

[johncap]

I believe he has taken tests, and passed every one of them, no?
No. They don't even test for HGH. And he has as much as admitted taking that "cream" he thought was for zits or something. And others have testified under oath that they saw him taking stuff. Please, get off it.

[johncap]

How would you feel if you worked out day in and day out, you busted your ass everyday and then when you start to do well and all of your hard work pays off you get asked 1,000,000 questions about: "Did you take steroids?"

Now I'm not saying Bonds, or any other of the players accused of using steroids, didnt do it... but I'm sure that some of the ones who are accused actually didnt use them and worked hard...

How would you feel if all of your hard work was put aside as, "Just another 'roid head" and everyone badgered you day in and day out?

I'd be pissed off, I don't blame Bonds for tearing into the reporters because they ask the same stuff OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER.

Before you go off accusing anyone who hits over 30 HRs of using steroids, think before you do it.
He created the situation he's in, in ALL regards.

[LouGehrig]

Have you ever been to court? You are NOT innocent until proven guilty. This isn't a land of fairy tales and make believe.

Actually, as cynical (realistic) as I have become, I HAVE been to court, and much to my surprise and pleasure, I WAS considered inncocent until the evidence proved otherwise.

NOT the prosecution. The evidence.

No problem with that.

[LouGehrig]

Actually in the court system you are innocent until proven guilty.

But that is besides the point, opinion is not the federal government.

The Bill of Rights does not apply to this issue. In this case one could very well have to prove ones innocence.

I was under the impression that the Constitution and Bill of Rights take precedence over any other laws or statutes.

[LouGehrig]

Nope, you've never been to court then.

They also tell you that you have a right to a trial. Do you believe that also?


I do. On Sept. 1, 2006, the head of the NYS troopers changed policy so that no plea bargaining for a traffic violation would be allowed. If one were charged with speeding, one would either plead guilty and pay the fine or request a trial. Two lawmakers wrote and the legislature passed a law, awaiting the governor's signature or veto, that would reinsate plea bargaining in traffic cases.

The main reason for the law was to NOT clog up the court system with so many trials.

[LouGehrig]

is "innocent until proven guilty" the same as "not guilty unless proven guilty"?

the accused may be found "guilty" or "not guilty"... but never "innocent"... for good reason.

You are correct, but the concept is wrong.

[johncap]

Actually, as cynical (realistic) as I have become, I HAVE been to court, and much to my surprise and pleasure, I WAS considered inncocent until the evidence proved otherwise.

NOT the prosecution. The evidence.

No problem with that.
Well, I disagree with that naive statement. Fact is, as my lawyer told me when we had to sue a client, "it's not about being right, it's about winning". That means he who has the best lawyer(s) and argues the best will win. It doesn't mean he who is right will win. We won because we had the best lawyer and the other side was stupid. But I could see the judge was so disinterested in justice that it could have easily gone the other way had the other lawyer been smarter than he was. And there were CLEAR presumptions made by the judge that are counter to what most people believe.

[LouGehrig]

Personally, it wouldn't bother me. If you spend any time at all worrying about what other people think of you, you're asking for trouble. Just live your life and if other people judge you it's thier problem, not yours.

Elvis, we finally agree COMPLETELY on something. You are so right and for some, it is so difficult to reach that point.

[Ubiquitous]

I was under the impression that the Constitution and Bill of Rights take precedence over any other laws or statutes.


And are we in a court of law?

[bama50]

If I was clean I wouldn't like all the question. But the old sayings says "Be true to thy self". That's the important part.

[ESPNFan]

Sosa or Clemens are good examples. Though anyone who thinks steroid user's aren't " hardworking " is grossly misinformed.

Bonds wasn't lying when he said his increase in production was because of hardwork, he was lying when he said he didn't use illegal drugs to amplify those workouts.

Dude, give this "steroid users work hard" shtick becuase its just a load of crap. What athletes who are competeting at the pinnacle of their sports don't work hard? The only thing Steroid users work hard at is cheating.
You dont think clean players work hard?

Its moronic logic.

[RuthMayBond]

Dude, give this "steroid users work hard" shtick becuase its just a load of crap. What athletes who are competeting at the pinnacle of their sports don't work hard?John Kruk?
Manny Ramirez?
Greg Luzinski?
Mo Vaughn?

[ESPNFan]

John Kruk?
Manny Ramirez?
Greg Luzinski?
Mo Vaughn?

Have you seen Kruk and Mo recently? Not so small they are....;) Just because guys are large when they play doesn't mean they do nothing. And when they basicly explode after their playing days are over its obvious.

My point is that ther are plenty of athletes who hit the gym work hard, watch what they eat and take care of themselves. To say that people who do steroids work hard because they do the same things but take a substance so they benefit more from it is nonsense. They are cheating, lets not sugar coat it.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

John Kruk?
Manny Ramirez?
Greg Luzinski?
Mo Vaughn?

Manny Ramirez doesn't work hard? Are you kidding? How could anyone hit that many homeruns without hard work. Sure, there are many guys who work alot harder. They do weight training every day, have the protein shakes, have massive off-season workout regimens etc... I am not sure about what Manny's workout routine is like, but I'm sure he logs his gym hours.

To say that he doesn't work hard is bashing him for being good. He doesn't have to work as hard, because he has so much natural ability. But he still works, no doubt. The fact that others may work harder than him does not takek away from the hard work that Manny logs.

Please give me any type of source that says that Manny doesn't work hard.

PS: This thread has strayed immensly from the initial question...

[LouGehrig]

And are we in a court of law?

No. We are in a court of baseball where positions and opinions without support must be rejected.

I find it distasteful to discuss Barry Bonds and it bothers be when he is rated above many of the greats who played the game.

Emotionally, I would love to NOT have to read about his home run totals, walks, hits, etc., but the fact is that until it can be confirmed that Barry Bonds used methods that are against the rules, I and millions of other must read and accept what he has done.

Even if he were to be found guilty of breaking laws, but they were laws or rules not related to using methods that are against baseball's rules, his records on the field must be accepted.

[RuthMayBond]

Please give me any type of source that says that Manny doesn't work hard.Anyone who's seen him in the field

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

I mean in training, watching video, batting practice etc... Sure, Manny isn't a good fielder by any means, but that doesn't mean he's a slacker. He's in left field for a reason. His bat.

[LouGehrig]

Well, I disagree with that naive statement. Fact is, as my lawyer told me when we had to sue a client, "it's not about being right, it's about winning". That means he who has the best lawyer(s) and argues the best will win. It doesn't mean he who is right will win. We won because we had the best lawyer and the other side was stupid. But I could see the judge was so disinterested in justice that it could have easily gone the other way had the other lawyer been smarter than he was. And there were CLEAR presumptions made by the judge that are counter to what most people believe.

Unfortunately, you are probably right.