All-Time Team

[busta]

Here is my all-time team:

C = Johnny Bench (R)
1B = Lou Gehrig (L)
2B = Rogers Hornsby (R)
3B = Mike Schmidt (R)
SS = Honus Wagner (R)
OF = Barry Bonds (L)
OF = Babe Ruth (L)
OF = Ty Cobb (L)
DH = Ted Williams (L)
BENCH = Willie Mays (R)
BENCH = Jimmie Foxx (R)
BENCH = Stan Musial (L)
BENCH = Yogi Berra (L)
BENCH = Mickey Mantle (S)
BENCH = Jackie Robinson (R)
BENCH = Joe DiMaggio (L)
BENCH = Hank Aaron (R)

SP = Cy Young (R)
SP = Christy Mathewson (R)
SP = Walter Johnson (R)
SP = Roger Clemens (R)
RP = Nolan Ryan (R)
RP = Bob Gibson (R)
RP = Sandy Koufax (L)
RP = Warren Spahn (L)

This team would destroy all opponents. They would dominate. They truly are a "team for all-times".

[Bill Burgess]

All Time A team

1. George Sisler
2. Eddie Collins
3. Mike Schmidt
SS. Honus Wagner
LF Willie Mays
CF Tris Speaker
RF Ty Cobb
C Buck Ewing
Biz Mackay

Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Nolan Ryan
Sandy Koufax
Pete Alexander
Warren Spahn
Satchel Paige
Rube Waddell
DH Babe Ruth

My Bench

Willie Keeler OF
Roger Clemens P
Nap Lajoie IF
Martin Dihigo P,OF
Jackie Robinson IF
King Kelly C, OF
Man. Connie Mack
Ass. Man. John McGraw


Bill Burgess

[The Dude]

If I did it by how I have pitchers and players in my personal Hof. My team would be playing in their best 3-year prime

A Team:
C-Johnny Bench
1B-Lou Gehrig
2B-Eddie Collins
3B-Mike Schmidt
SS-Honus Wagner
LF-Stan Musial
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Babe Ruth

SP-Randy Johnson-L
SP-Walter Johnson-R
SP-Pete Alexander-R
SP-Lefty Grove-L
SP-Addie Joss-R

RP-Hoyt Wilhelm



B Team:
C-Mickey Cochrane
1B-Jimmie Foxx
2B-Rogers Hornsby
3B-Wade Boggs
SS-Alex Rodriguez
LF-Ted Williams
CF-Ty Cobb
RF-Hank Aaron

SP-Sandy Koufax-L
SP-Christy Mathewson-R
SP-Juan Marichal-R
SP-Greg Maddux-R
SP-Warren Spahn-L

RP-Rollie Fingers



C Team:
C-Yogi Berra
1B-Hank Greenberg
2B-Joe Morgan
3B-George Brett
SS-Robin Yount
LF-Carl Yastrzemski
CF-Joe DiMaggio
RF-Frank Robinson

SP-Carl Hubbell
SP-Ed Walsh
SP-Whitey Ford
SP-Jim Palmer
SP-Eddie Plank

RP-Mariano Rivera



D Team:
C-Mike Piazza
1B-Johnny Mize
2B-Nap Lajoie
3B-Eddie Mathews
SS-Ernie Banks
LF-Joe Jackson
CF-Mickey Mantle
RF-Mel Ott

SP-Tom Seaver
SP-Roger Clemens
SP-Robin Roberts
SP-Mordecai Brown
SP-Bob Feller

RP-Dennis Eckersley

[DoubleX]

First Team
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Rogers Hornsby
SS: Honus Wagner
3B: Mike Schmidt
C: Johnny Bench
LF: Barry Bonds
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Babe Ruth

SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Roger Clemens
SP: Lefty Grove
SP: Randy Johnson

RP: Hoyt Wilhelm

Second Team
1B: Stan Musial
2B: Eddie Collins
SS: Alex Rodriguez
3B: George Brett
C: Yogi Berra
LF: Ted Williams
CF: Ty Cobb
RF: Hank Aaron

SP: Cy Young
SP: Sandy Koufax
SP: Tom Seaver
SP: Greg Maddux

RP: Dennis Eckersley

Third Team

1B: Jimmie Foxx
2B: Joe Morgan
SS: Arky Vaughan
3B: Eddie Mathews
C: Mike Piazza
LF: Rickey Henderson
CF: Mickey Mantle
RF: Frank Robinson

SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Bob Feller
SP: Warren Spahn
SP: Steve Carlton

RP: Goose Gossage

Fourth Team
1B: Hank Greenberg
2B: Jackie Robinson
SS: Cal Ripken Jr
3B: Wade Boggs
C: Ivan Rodriguez
LF: Carl Yastrzemski
CF: Tris Speaker
RF: Mel Ott

SP: Bob Gibson
SP: Jim Palmer
SP: Carl Hubbell
SP: Juan Marichal

RP: Mariano Rivera

Fifth Team
1B: Frank Thomas
2B: Ryne Sandberg
SS: Ernie Banks
3B: Ron Santo
C: Bill Dickey
LF: Al Simmons
CF: Joe DiMaggio
RF: Al Kaline

SP: Mordecai Brown
SP: Whitey Ford
SP: Robin Roberts
SP: Eddie Plank

RP: Rollie Fingers

[538280]

All the votes have been tallied, and this is it, the BBF All-Time Team:

C-Johnny Bench, Josh Gibson
1B-Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx
2B-Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins
3B-Mike Schmidt, George Brett
SS-Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez
LF-Ted Williams, Stan Musial
CF-Willlie Mays, Ty Cobb
RF-Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron

SP1-Walter Johnson
SP2-Lefty Grove
SP3-Roger Clemens
SP4-Satchel Paige
SP5-Christy Mathewson

RP1-Dennis Eckersley
RP2-Mariano Rivera
RP3-Hoyt Wilhelm
RP4-Goose Gossage

Mgr-John McGraw

[BoSox Rule]

Switch Johnny Bench with Ivan Rodriguez, and Satchel Paige with Pedro Martinez and you have my all-time team. I like the result.

[Barnstormer]

Great work! Just one question, Eck was really voted the best reliever of all time?

[538280]

My all-time teams, A and B:

The A Team:

C-Josh Gibson
1B-Lou Gehrig
2B-Joe Morgan
3B-Mike Schmidt
SS-Honus Wagner
LF-Barry Bonds
CF-Oscar Charleston
RF-Babe Ruth

SP1-Walter Johnson
SP2-Satchel Paige
SP3-Lefty Grove
SP4-Cy Young
SP5-Smokey Joe Williams

RP1-Hoyt Wilhelm
RP2-Rollie Fingers
RP3-Dennis Eckersley
RP4-Goose Gossage

The B Team:
C-Johnny Bench
1B-Jimmie Foxx
2B-Eddie Collins
3B-John McGraw
SS-Arky Vaughan
LF-Ted Williams
CF-Ty Cobb
RF-Hank Aaron

SP1-Bob Gibson
SP2-Pete Alexander
SP3-Greg Maddux
SP4-Roger Clemens
SP5-Bill Foster

RP1-John Wetteland
RP2-Bruce Sutter
RP3-Mariano Rivera
RP4-Sad Sam Jones

[538280]

Great work! Just one question, Eck was really voted the best reliever of all time?

Yes, he was. He got the most votes in the poll for the team's bullpen.

[RuthMayBond]

Great work! Just one question, Eck was really voted the best reliever of all time?There's probably almost twenty relievers who were better than Eck

[Bill Burgess]

Good job, Chris. Nice work. You've earned your spurs on Fever. Completed a major project in fine style. 3 Cheers for Chris!!!

Bill Burgess

[538280]

Good job, Chris. Nice work. You've earned your spurs on Fever. Completed a major project in fine style. 3 Cheers for Chris!!!

Bill Burgess

Thanks for the compliments.

[538280]

Could a moderator please make this a sticky thread so that it stays at the top so that everyone can see it?

[1905 Giants]

I would like to know everyone's starting nine and Rotation
Just interested.
Here's mine:
C- Roy Campanella
1B- Lou Gehrig
2B- Rogers Hornsby
3B- Mike Schmidt
SS- Honus Wagner
LF- Stan Musial
CF- Willie Mays
RF- Babe Ruth

SP- Lefty Grove
SP- Roger Clemens
SP- Christy Mathewson
SP- Warren Spahn
SP- Randy Johnson
CP-Mariano Rivera

[538280]

Defensive Alignment
C-Josh Gibson
1B-Lou Gehrig
2B-Joe Morgan
3B-Mike Schmidt
SS-Honus Wagner
LF-Barry Bonds
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Babe Ruth

Lineup
1.Morgan, 2B
2.Wagner, SS
3.Ruth, RF
4.Bonds, LF
5.Gehrig, 1B
6.Mays, CF
7.Gibson, C
8.Schmidt, 3B
9. Maddux, P

Pitching Staff
SP1-Greg Maddux
SP2-Walter Johnson
SP3-Roger Clemens
SP4-Lefty Grove
SP5-Satchel Paige

RP-Hoyt Wilhelm
RP-Goose Gossage

Mgr.-Connie Mack
Assis. Mgr-John McGraw

[DoubleX]

It's been a little while since we had one of these. Here's my 25-man roster:

Starting Lineup
1) Honus Wagner - SS
2) Ty Cobb - CF
3) Babe Ruth - RF
4) Ted Williams - DH
5) Lou Gehrig - 1B
6) Willie Mays - CF
7) Rogers Hornsby - 2B
8) Mike Schmidt - 3B
9) Johnny Bench - C

Bench
Yogi Berra - C
Alex Rodriguez - SS/3B
Joe Morgan - 2B
Mickey Mantle - OF/1B
Hank Aaron - OF

Rotation
SP1 - Walter Johnson
SP2 - Roger Clemens
SP3 - Lefty Grove
SP4 - Greg Maddux
SP5 - Pete Alexander

LR - Sandy Koufax
LR - Bob Feller
LR - Pedro Martinez

MR - Hoyt Wilhelm
SU - Goose Gossage
CL - Mariano Rivera


And just for good measure, this would be my B-Team

Starting Lineup
1) Eddie Collins - 2B
2) Tris Speaker - CF
3) Stan Musial - 1B
4) Barry Bonds - LF
5) Jimmie Foxx - 1B
6) Frank Robinson - RF
7) Mike Piazza - C
8) George Brett - 3B
9) Cal Ripken Jr - SS

Bench
Mickey Cochrane - C
Albert Pujols - 1B/3B/OF
Napoleon Lajoie - 2B
Joe DiMaggio - OF
Rickey Henderson - OF

Rotation
SP1 - Cy Young
SP2 - Tom Seaver
SP3 - Christy Mathewson
SP4 - Randy Johnson
SP5 - Warren Spahn

LR - Bob Gibson
LR - Carl Hubbell
LR - Steve Carlton

MR - Rollie Fingers
SU - Bruce Sutter
CL - Dan Quisenberry

[geezer]

MY all-time lineup will be the following:

1B-Lou Gehrig
2B-Rogers Hornsby
3B-Alex Rodriguez
SS-Honus Wagner
OF-Babe Ruth
OF-Ty Cobb
OF-Ted Williams
DH-Hank Aaron

RHP-Roger Clemens
LHP-Lefty Grove

Manager: Joe McCarthy

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Lineup

1. Cobb - LF
2. Wagner - SS
3. Ruth - RF
4. Hornsby - 2B
5. Gehrig - 1B
6. Mays - CF
7. Schmidt - 3B
8. Bench - C
9. Pitchers spot

Bench:

Speaker
Williams
Aaron
Mantle
DiMaggio
Musial

[The Dude]

C-Johnny Bench
1B-Lou Gehrig
2B-Morgan/Collins/Hornsby (I still can't decide)
3B-Schmidt
SS-Wagner
LF-Musial
CF-Cobb
RF-Ruth

SP-Alexander
SP-Grove
SP-Maddux
SP-W.Johnson
SP-R.Johnson
Relief-Mariano Rivera
Closer-Hoyt Wilhelm

[Sultan_1895-1948]

As much as we've already done this type of thing, we should at least put them in batting order form, for a little twist. :2cents: :noidea

[Edgartohof]

MY all-time lineup will be the following:

1B-Lou Gehrig
2B-Rogers Hornsby
3B-Alex Rodriguez
SS-Honus Wagner
OF-Babe Ruth
OF-Ty Cobb
OF-Ted Williams
DH-Hank Aaron

RHP-Roger Clemens
LHP-Lefty Grove

Manager: Joe McCarthy

I'm not trying to change your lineup, since it is YOURS, but it would almost be worth it to switch H.Aaron, and T.Williams, since Aaron was the far better fielder, even though he was a Right Fielder, and not a Left Fielder (which is probably why you did that), but I figure he could adjust.

[Pghfan987]

1) Ty Cobb- LF
2) Honus Wagner- SS
3) Babe Ruth- DH
4) Stan Musial- 1B
5) Rogers Hornsby- 2B
6) Hank Aaron- RF
7) Josh Gibson- C
8) Willie Mays- CF
9) Alex Rodriguez- 3B

just switch Babe to RF and take out Aaron if you don't like the DH

SP1- Walter Johnson
SP2- Lefty Grove
SP3- Satchel Paige
SP4- Roger Clemens
SP5- Greg Maddux/ Pete Alexander (undecided)

CP- Mo Rivera

[125osprey]

2 - Berra
3 - Gerhig
4 - Hornsby
5 - Schmidt
6 - Wagner
7 - Williams
8 - Mays
9 - Ruth

1 - Clemens
1 - Grove
1 - Spahn
1 - Gibson

1 - Wilhelm
1 - Eckersley

[Sockeye]

Lineup
1: Honus Wagner SS
2: Rogers Hornsby 2B
3: Barry Bonds LF
4: Babe Ruth RF
5: Ted Williams DH
6: Lou Gehrig 1B
7: Willie Mays CF
8: Alex Rodriguez 3B
9: Mike Piazza C

Bench
OF: Stan Musial
1B/3B/OF: Albert Pujols
1B: Jimmie Foxx
OF: Ty Cobb
C: Johnny Bench
2B: Eddie Collins
OF: Hank Aaron

Rotation
SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Pete Alexander
SP: Lefty Grove
SP: Cy Young

RP: Trevor Hoffman
RP: Mariano Rivera
RP: Dennis Eckersly
RP: Billy Wagner

[Francoeurstein]

C Berra
1B Gehrig
2B Hornsby
3B Schmidt
SS Wags
LF Musial
CF Cobb
RF Ruth

1. W. Johnson
2. Clemens
3. Grove
4. Matthewson
5. Maddux

1. Cobb
2. Wags
3. Ruth
4. Musial
5. Hornsby
6. Gehrig
7. Schmidt
8. Berra
9. Johnson

[Pghfan987]

Lineup
1: Honus Wagner SS
2: Rogers Hornsby 2B
3: Barry Bonds LF
4: Babe Ruth RF
5: Ted Williams DH
6: Lou Gehrig 1B
7: Willie Mays CF
8: Alex Rodriguez 3B
9: Mike Piazza C

Bench
OF: Stan Musial
1B/3B/OF: Albert Pujols
1B: Jimmie Foxx
OF: Ty Cobb
C: Johnny Bench
2B: Eddie Collins
OF: Hank Aaron

Rotation
SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Pete Alexander
SP: Lefty Grove
SP: Cy Young

RP: Trevor Hoffman
RP: Mariano Rivera
RP: Dennis Eckersly
RP: Billy Wagner

You know, Sockeye, for all the criticism you get for Beltre being a HOFer, etc, that is actually a pretty good team!

[538280]

You know, Sockeye, for all the criticism you get for Beltre being a HOFer, etc, that is actually a pretty good team!

I would disagree with some of his selections (Hornsby at 2B, A-Rod at 3B, Piazza at C, no Maddux/Clemens in his rotation), but, yeah, it's a good team and very reasonable selections.

[Pghfan987]

But none of the picks are outlandish or un-supportable- it's pretty much impossible to "prove" that Cy Young does not belong on that list (like we can prove that Mike Schmidt was better than Adrian Beltre.)

In a few years, though, I think A-Rod will be easily ahead of Schmidt. With Schmidt no longer holding the "best third baseman of all-time" title, I think his overall ranking will drop.

Well, at least for most people. :rolleyes:

[DoubleX]

In a few years, though, I think A-Rod will be easily ahead of Schmidt. With Schmidt no longer holding the "best third baseman of all-time" title, I think his overall ranking will drop.

You think? Schmidt played almost his entire career at 3B, 11 Gold Gloves, he was a pure 3Bman. A-Rod is a transplanted SS and I have a feeling history will remember him as a SS rather than a 3B. Ranking A-Rod will be an interesting case when all is said and done. At SS, he's already the 2nd best to have played, and many would say the best. So how do the 3B years factor in? Does he credit at SS for the 3B years (like Carew does at 2B for years spent at 1B, and Banks at SS for years at 1B), and if so, is it fair to move him past Wagner? Or will A-Rod be that rare player that people will rank at multiple positions. Either way, I can't really see him ranking first at either position without having spent the majority of his career there. If he's ranked at both, the best I can see is 2nd at both positions, or 2nd just at one poisition. Best case scenario is that he one day (preferably soon) moves back to SS and solidifies his ranking there.

[julusnc]

c - Yogi Berra
1b - Lou Gehrig
2b - Nap Lajoie
ss - Honus Wagner
3b - Mike Scmidt
lf - Barry Bonds
cf - Willie Mays
rf - Babe Ruth
dh - Ted Williams

sp - Roger Clemens
sp - Walter Johnson
sp - Tom Seaver
sp - Left Grove
sp - Grover Cleveland Alexander
sp - Warren Spahn
rp - Hoyt Wilhelm
rp - Mariano Rivera
rp - Lee Smith

[leecemark]

--I think A-Rod will end up like Stan Musial or (at a lower level of all time greatness) Pete Rose. Not clearly indentified with one position and thus missing out on the top spot anywhere - even though he may end up having a better career than either Schmidt or Wagner. I expect to always list him at SS in my own ranking though (and will be surprised if he ends up with more 3B than SS games played).

[Pghfan987]

Having a guy split time at two different position has not prevented me from ranking them highly at a certain position. I heard some people say that they have Musial ranked ahead of Gehrig as far as the best players, but behind Gehrig in terms of the best first basemen of all-time. That doesn't make any sense to me. If you want to rank A-Rod as only a SS or only a 3Bman, fine. But you don't just ignore him when ranking the best by position just because he played more than one position. That is, in essence, punishing him for his versatility.

Maybe A-Rod will only play 800 games at third. I don't care. I know that he has the defensive skills to play both SS and third very well. Unless A-Rod switches back to SS very soon, I am going to rank him #1 at third, and, if pressed, #2 at shortstop. But I am not going to punish him for his versatility by not ranking him as the best third baseman of all-time.

[Bill Burgess]

Since you're all in the mood to do your all time teams, I hope I can persuade you to either contribute or revise your all time teams from this thread, which I bring to the front every so often.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=14965

And this one too.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38137

And while you're in the mood.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=13039

Thanks, gentlemen.

Bill Burgess

[Baseball Guru]

Starting Lineup
1) Ty Cobb - CF
2) Rogers Hornsby - 2B
3) Ted Williams - DH
4) Babe Ruth - RF
5) Lou Gehrig - 1B
6) Willie Mays - CF
7) Mike Schmidt - 3B
8) Honus Wagner - SS
9) Josh Gobson- C

Rotation
SP1 - Walter Johnson
SP2 - Roger Clemens
SP3 - Lefty Grove
SP4 - Greg Maddux
SP5 - Pete Alexander

LR - Christy Mathewson
LR - Bob Gibson
LR - Pedro Martinez

MR - Sandy Koufax
SU - Ed Walsh
CL - Mariano Rivera

[Bill Burgess]

What the heck. When in Rome . . . eat pasta, with prawns/mushrooms/broccoli.


My All-Time All-Star teams, A & B

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--A Team--------------------------B Team
1B George Sisler------------------Lou Gehrig
2B Eddie Collins------------------Rogers Hornsby
3B Mike Schmidt-------------------George Brett
SS Honus Wagner-------------------"Pop" Lloyd
LF Willie Mays--------------------Joe Jackson
CF Tris Speaker-------------------Oscar Charleston
RF Ty Cobb-----------------------Roberto Clemente
C Buck Ewing / "Biz" Mackay-----Johnny Bench / Ivan Rodriguez
DH: Babe Ruth---------------------Ted Williams (DH is optional)
SP: Walter Johnson----------------Lefty Grove
SP: Christy Mathewson-------------Bob Feller
SP: Nolan Ryan--------------------"Smokey Joe" Williams
SP: Sandy Koufax------------------"Bullet Joe" Rogan
Long R: Pete Alexander------------Juan Marichal
Short R: Warren Spahn-------------Mordecai Brown
Short R: Satchel Paige------------Greg Maddux
Closer: Rube Waddell--------------Amos Rusie
Man.: Connie Mack-----------------Casey Stengel
Ass. Man.: John McGraw------------Ned Hanlon

I think it is balanced in terms of eras, black/white, offense/defense,
slugger/ set-up hitter, power pitcher/control pitcher.


My Bench--------------------------My Bench
Willie Keeler---------------------Joe DiMaggio
Roger Clemens---------------------John Beckwith
Nap Lajoie------------------------Ken Griffey, Jr.
Martin Dihigo---------------------Bill Lange
Jackie Robinson-------------------Randy Johnson
"King" Kelly----------------------Alex Rodriguez
Addie Joss
----------------------------------------------------------------
My All-Time Defensive All-Star Teams, A & B

---A Team-------------------------B Team

1B Hal Chase----------------------George Sisler
2B-Joe Gordon---------------------Eddie Collins
SS-Ozzie Smith--------------------Herman Long / Bobby Wallace
3B-Billy Cox----------------------Brooks Robinson
LF-Richie Ashburn-----------------Willie Mays
CF-Tris Speaker-------------------Bill Lange
RF-Johnny McAleer-----------------Max Carey
C-"Buck" Ewing--------------------Charlie Bennett / Bench
C- Biz Mackey---------------------Ray Schalk / Kling
P-Warren Spahn--------------------Walter Johnson

Honorable Mentions
Bill Mazeroski(2B), Andruw Jones(OF), Torri Hunter(OF),
Mickey Cochrane(C), Ossie Bluege(3B), Glenn Wright(SS), Mike Schmidt
(3B), Charlie Gehringer(2B), Jim Edmonds(OF), Ivan (Pudge)
Rodriquez(C), Jimmy Sheckard(OF), Honus Wagner(SS).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My All-Time Black Teams, A & B,
---------------------------------

A Team-------------------------------------B Team

1B - "Buck" Leonard;------------------------1B - Ben Taylor
2B - Jackie Robinson;-----------------------2B - "Bingo" DeMoss;
3B - Oliver Marcell;------------------------3B - Judy Johnson:
SS - John Henry Lloyd;----------------------SS - Willie Wells:
LF - Barry Bonds;---------------------------LF - Hank Aaron;
CF - Oscar Charleston;----------------------CF - "Cool Papa" Bell;
RF - Willie Mays;---------------------------RF - Roberto Clemente;
C - "Biz" Mackay / Gibson;------------------C - Bruce Petway / Campanella
DH - Christobal Torrienti;------------------DH - Louis "Santop" Loftin
SP - "Satchel" Paige;------------------------P - Juan Marichal
SP - "Smokey Joe" Williams;------------------P - "Cannonball" Dick Redding
SP - "Bullet Joe" Rogan;---------------------P - Nip Winters
SP - Pedro Martinez;-------------------------P - "Dizzy" Dismukes
RP - Bob Gibson;-----------------------------P - Don Newcombe
RP - John Donaldson;-------------------------P - Dave Stuart
RP - Willie Foster;--------------------------P - Mariano Rivera
Closer - Slim Jones
Manager; "Rube" Foster;----------------------Manager - Cum Posey.
Coaches; "Dizzy" Dismukes, Danny McClelland;-Coaches - C.I. Taylor

[cavalier1968]

1B Alburt Pujols
2B Rogers Hornsby
3B Mike Schmidt
SS Honus Wagner
LF Ted Williams
CF Willie Mays
RF Babe Ruth
C Johnny Bench

SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Greg Maddux
SP: Lefty Groves
RP: Roger Clemens
RP: Pedro Martinez
RP: Randy Johnson
RP: Satchel Paige
RP: Bob Gibson
Closer: Rivera

Bench players

Aaron
Musial
Cobb
Gehrig
Morgan
Berra
Alex Rodriguez

BEAT THIS TEAM!!!!!

Cav

[Blackout]

1B Alburt Pujols
2B Rogers Hornsby
3B Mike Schmidt
SS Honus Wagner
LF Ted Williams
CF Willie Mays
RF Babe Ruth
C Johnny Bench

SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Greg Maddux
SP: Lefty Groves
RP: Roger Clemens
RP: Pedro Martinez
RP: Randy Johnson
RP: Satchel Paige
RP: Bob Gibson
Closer: Rivera

Bench players

Aaron
Musial
Cobb
Gehrig
Morgan
Berra
Alex Rodriguez

BEAT THIS TEAM!!!!!

Cav

this team could:

C-Josh Gibson
1B-Jimmie Foxx
2B-Eddie Collins
3B-Wade Boggs
SS-Pop Lloyd
LF-Joe Dimaggio
CF-Mickey Mantle
RF-Oscar Charleston

bench:

-Christobal Torrienti
-Tris Speaker
-Bill Dickey
-Manny Ramirez
-Vlad Guerrero
-Ichiro Suzuki
-Sadaharu Oh
-Barry Bonds*

SP-Smokey Joe Williams
SP-Warren Spahn
SP-Cy Young
SP-Pete Alexander
RP-Sandy Koufax
RP-Tom Seaver
RP-Johan Santana
RP-Curt Schilling

CL-Eric Gagne

[Sultan_1895-1948]

BEAT THIS TEAM!!!!!


well....5 lefty hitters on your bench and 6 out of 8 righty hitters in your lineup....it could be done :lookitup ;)

[TerpFan01]

C: Johnny Bench
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Rogers Hornsby
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Honus Wagner
RF: Babe Ruth
CF: Joe DiMaggio
LF: Ty Cobb
DH: Ted Williams

SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Sandy Koufax
SP: Lefty Grove
SP: Cy Young
RP: Tom Seaver
RP: Bob Gibson
RP: Nolan Ryan
RP: Roger Clemens
RP: Pedro Martinez

Batting Lineup:
1. Ty Cobb
2. Rogers Hornsby
3. Ted Williams
4. Babe Ruth
5. Lou Gehrig
6. Honus Wagner
7. Joe DiMaggio
8. Mike Schmidt
9. Johnny Bench

[yankillaz]

Cool, my Team will be like this:

Ty Cobb, cf
Roger Hornsby, 2b
Babe Ruth, rf
Lou Gehrig, 1b
Ted Williams, dh
Stan Musial, lf
Mike Schmidt, 3b
Honus Wagner, ss
Johnny Bench, c

Walter Johnson, SP
Lefty Grove, SP
Christy Mathewson, SP
Roger Clemens, SP
Pedro Martinez, SP

Hoyt Wilhelm, RP
Rollie Fingers, RP
Mike Marshall, RP
John Franco, RP
Dennis Eckersley, RP
Mo Rivera, RP

BENCH:

Mike Piazza, c
George Sisler, 1b
Eddie Collins, 2b
Eddie Mathews, 3b
Ernie Banks, ss
Tris Speaker, lf
Willie Mays, cf
Roberto Clemente, rf
Hank Aaron, dh

[WrightWing]

Postions:
C Johnny Bench
1B Jimmie Foxx
2B Charlie Gehringer
SS Ozzie Smith
3B George Brett
LF Ted Williams
CF Ty Cobb
RF Babe Ruth

Batting Order:
1-Cobb(L)
2-Brett(L)
3-Williams(L)
4-Foxx(R)
5-Ruth(L)
6-Bench(R)
7-Gehringer(L)
8-Smith(S)

Rotation:
1-Bob Gibson(R)
2-Sandy Koufax(L)
3-Walter Johnson(R)
4-Randy Johnson(L)
5-Roger Clemens(R)

Bench:
C-Roy Campanella(R)
1B-Don Mattingly(L)
IF-Jackie Robinson(R)
SS-Derek Jeter(R)
3B-Mike Schmidt(R)
OF-Mickey Mantle(S)
OF-Willie Mays(R)

Bullpen:
John Smoltz(R)
Hoyt Wilhelm(R)
Jesse Orosco(L)
Goose Gossage(R)
John Franco(L)

26th Man-Rickey Henderson (depending on a 9 or 10 man pitching staff)

Without reading too many responses that might sway my opinion, I tried to build a "team" that could compete over a 162 season, rather than an automatic best at each position listing.

I also wanted it to portray what I like in a team. Gamers (Brett, Jeter, Robinson, Campanella), Toughness (Gossage, Cobb, Gibson, Clemens) and pure God-Given abilities (Williams, Ozzie, Babe, Henderson). And a bullpen that is versatile in roles and pitching styles.

That was fun. Glad this idea was posted...

[Chisox]

SS Honus Wagner
LF Barry Bonds
DH Babe Ruth
1B Lou Gehrig
RF Hank Aaron
CF Willie Mays
3B Mike Schmidt
C Johnny Bench
2B Charlie Gehringer

P Walter Johnson
P Lefty Grove
P Cy Young
P Randy Johnson
P Roger Clemens

Just for kicks, the best OFFENSIVE line-up (within reason)
1 CF Barry Bonds
2 DH Ted Williams
3 LF Babe Ruth
4 1B Lou Gehrig
5 2B Hank Aaron
6 C Jimmie Foxx
7 RF Frank Robinson
8 SS Rogers Hornsby
9 3B Alex Rodriguez

or
1 CF Ty Cobb
2 LF Barry Bonds
3 DH Ted Williams
4 RF Babe Ruth
5 1B Lou Gehrig
6 2B Hank Aaron
7 C Jimmie Foxx
8 SS Rogers Hornsby
9 3B Alex Rodriguez

[538280]

Two people in a row list Charlie Gehringer as their #1 2B?? :confused:

[BaseballHistoryNut]

I would like to know everyone's starting nine and Rotation
Just interested.
Here's mine:
C- Roy Campanella
1B- Lou Gehrig
2B- Rogers Hornsby
3B- Mike Schmidt
SS- Honus Wagner
LF- Stan Musial
CF- Willie Mays
RF- Babe Ruth

SP- Lefty Grove
SP- Roger Clemens
SP- Christy Mathewson
SP- Warren Spahn
SP- Randy Johnson
CP-Mariano Rivera



You won't find many Starting Eight's as close to yours as mine are. ASSUMING Josh Gibson is ineligible, here is my all-time team:

C---Roy Campanella
1B---Lou Gehrig
2B---Joe Morgan
SS---Honus Wagner
3B---Mike Schmidt
LF---Ted Williams (Bonds counts only thru 1999; Musial #2; Bonds #3)
CF---Willie Mays
RF---Babe Ruth

P1---Lefty Grove
P2---Roger Clemens
P3---Greg Maddux
P4---Walter Johnson (see, y'all have persuaded me!!!)
P5---Pedro Martinez
RP---Hoyt Wilhelm

[BaseballHistoryNut]

Defensive Alignment
C-Josh Gibson
1B-Lou Gehrig
2B-Joe Morgan
3B-Mike Schmidt
SS-Honus Wagner
LF-Barry Bonds
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Babe Ruth

Lineup
1.Morgan, 2B
2.Wagner, SS
3.Ruth, RF
4.Bonds, LF
5.Gehrig, 1B
6.Mays, CF
7.Gibson, C
8.Schmidt, 3B
9. Maddux, P

Pitching Staff
SP1-Greg Maddux
SP2-Walter Johnson
SP3-Roger Clemens
SP4-Lefty Grove
SP5-Satchel Paige

RP-Hoyt Wilhelm
RP-Goose Gossage


I didn't know we were allowed to include Gibson. You and I are in agreement on all 8 starters except Bonds, who in my mind retired after 1999. We also have the same top 4 pitchers, but in very different orders. You and I think a lot alike about this game.

[ElHalo]

Two people in a row list Charlie Gehringer as their #1 2B?? :confused:

Wow, a couple of business trips and I miss some gems....

Well, no, the mechanical man certainly isn't the number 1 2Bman of all time. But he is better than your boy Morgan.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

I'm not trying to change your lineup, since it is YOURS, but it would almost be worth it to switch H.Aaron, and T.Williams, since Aaron was the far better fielder, even though he was a Right Fielder, and not a Left Fielder (which is probably why you did that), but I figure he could adjust.


Isn't it a few years too early to be putting A-Rod ahead of Schmidt?

I mean, I do GET that he's on pace to leave Schmidt's feats in his dust, though he's really a SS and shouldn't be playing 3B to begin with. But assuming he finishes out his career at 3B, and is remembered at that position (which would be a shame), then barring injury or a precipitous and lasting decline, he'll surely pass Schmidt as an overall player.

But several years ago, who didn't take it for granted that Griffey would pass Frank Robinson on the HR list--or, for that matter, Mays? Jimmie Foxx hit his 500th HR at the ripe old age of 32, having gotten a MUCH younger start as an everyday player than Ruth. I'm sure everyone thought, at the start of the 1941 season, that he would pass Ruth. Instead, he hit all of 34 more HR's in the rest of his alcoholic career.

A-Rod appears to be a much more athletic, self-respecting individual than Jimmie Foxx. But so did Griffey. And like both Griffey and Foxx, A-Rod started playing full-time at a very young age.

I do not think we should take it for granted that his career feats will surpass those of Schmidt. Schmidt was one hell of a player. From 1960-1985, we saw what Bill James rightly called a "Periclean Age" of third basemen, but there's no doubt in my mind Schmidt was hands down the best of them. Can A-Rod be better? Hell, yes, he can be a LOT better. Will he? Yeah, probably, and as a former poker player (back in the days before every idiot who watched TV decided he/she could play), I'd sure be willing to bet A-Rod will rank higher than Schmidt when he's done.

BUT HE'S NOT THERE YET. I don't think we should take it for granted in making our rankings now.

When it happens, fine. I'll be as happy to say so as anyone. But do y'all really think we're there yet?

BHN

[ElHalo]

Isn't it a few years too early to be putting A-Rod ahead of Schmidt?

No, it's not. It's probably a bit too early to put Eric Chavez ahead of Schmidt, but ARod's certainly got it.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

Wow, a couple of business trips and I miss some gems....

Well, no, the mechanical man certainly isn't the number 1 2Bman of all time. But he is better than your boy Morgan.


WOW is right. I have a lot of respect for Gehringer, and would guess that I rate him higher than the average member of this site does (#5 or #6, depending on how I feel about Lajoie that day). But I'd never have thought I'd see someone rate Gehringer ahead of Morgan.

I know this: When two baseball fanatics are THIS far apart, there's no constructive purpose to be served by their debating the point. I not only share his belief Morgan is the #1 second baseman, I also think Morgan is better than any third baseman (i.e., Schmidt and, so far, A-Rod) and better than any MAJOR LEAGUE catcher. Obviously Josh Gibson was better, and just as obviously A-Rod will end up better if he maintains his pace for a few more years.

Morgan is by far the greatest player I've ever seen who didn't hit 300 HR's, and he hit some very big HR's.

I wonder if any knowledgeable person has ever calculated how many career HR's he would have hit, but for the Astrodome. Anyone seen that?

[ElHalo]

WOW is right. I have a lot of respect for Gehringer, and would guess that I rate him higher than the average member of this site does (#5 or #6, depending on how I feel about Lajoie that day). But I'd never have thought I'd see someone rate Gehringer ahead of Morgan.


Up until recently I had Morgan ranked number 5 at 2B (behind, in order, Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins, and Gehringer). Recently, I've dropped him a slot behind Rod Carew.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

No, it's not. It's probably a bit too early to put Eric Chavez ahead of Schmidt, but ARod's certainly got it.


That's a conclusional assertion. I was hoping for something more along the lines of a factual response.

A-Rod obviously does not have the career totals Schmidt has, trailing him by over 100 HR's and well over 200 R's and RBI's. A-Rod's edge in RC's will decline as he does. Moreover, Schmidt is still the answer to a pretty important trivia question: Who has more HR titles than any other player except Babe Ruth?

I realize Schmidt wouldn't have won all those Gold Gloves if he'd been in the A.L., but he was still a good fielder, and he was a terrific offensive force in an offensively arid time, and for many, many years.

I'm sure you don't mean to say A-Rod would have posted all the same #'s he has if he'd played in Schmidt's time. DO YOU?

Please explain to me why you feel that, if A-Rod suffered a career-ending injury tomorrow, he should be considered a greater player than Schmidt. I would gladly listen to any and all such arguments, if such an awful scenario arose (and it would indeed be awful), but it would take quite a bit to convince me. And you'd want to leave out the stuff about Gehringer over Morgan, lol.

[digglahhh]

BHN,

EH is not a fan of either Morgan or Schmidt, its one of his quirks.


BTW, how does Pedro not make every one of these lists. Assuming you can assemble a bullpen of all time greats, why not include the best inning for inning pitcher in baseball history, so what if he only goes seven and you have to turn it over to Eck and Mo?...

[BaseballHistoryNut]

Up until recently I had Morgan ranked number 5 at 2B (behind, in order, Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins, and Gehringer). Recently, I've dropped him a slot behind Rod Carew.

Thanks for warning me about that, Digg. I'll just leave the subject alone, do no proselytizing to El Halo--other than in this e-mail--and trust him to return the courtesy.

I love Gehringer, rate him ahead of Sandberg (barely), am struck by how unanimously his peers respected his talents, etc. Carew... well, on a good day, I might put him #10. I'll not now go into a harangue about the many reasons why, and I WILL say I know a jock who's now about 60 and knows Carew well. By all accounts I've heard, he's a great guy who's handled his horrible family tragedy as well as one could.

There are positions where I'm wide-open to the idea I'm wrong:

-----My quirkiest choice is Campanella at catcher (assuming Gibson is excluded; he's obviously #1, if not); but I could decide some day to go with Bench or Berra or Cochrane, given strong enough persuasion;

-----If A-Rod goes back to the position where he belongs, I could be persuaded to pick him over Wagner, but the more I learn about Wagner, the harder I think that will be;

-----If A-Rod stays where he is, and has another 2.5 good years (including this one), I'll put him in Schmidt's place--unless he winds up with more career games at SS;

-----I consider Bonds' career to have ended with the 1999 season, and I see LF as a REAL close call between Williams (my reluctant pick, considering what a $*@# he was) and Musial. I distastefully must take Williams, but I'm seriously toying with a far more distasteful idea: Give Bonds credit through 1999, then accept realistic projections, based on his obviously legit longevity (how much longevity did that garbage give McGwire, Caminiti or Sosa?), of what #'s he'd have had minus the PED's, but plus the myriad AB's he lost to the zillion BB's. If you think that doesn't kill me, think again.

-----I have Mays in CF, but four of the other greatest MLB players ever played there, and any of them is reasonable, while Oscar Charleston is reasonable for the greatest player ever; and

-----I am a VERY strong Grove supporter, but I enjoy hearing the ideas of Johnson, Clemens, Maddux, Pedro and even Alexander supporters. No other southpaw is, to me, a credible candidate.


But I'm rock-solid behind Morgan and have to tell you, I cannot for the life of me see picking Gehringer over him. Hornsby or Collins? I sure disagree, but I can see it. No way can I see Gehringer, despite being a very big Gehringer fan. He was a hell of a player. I'm not putting him down any more than I'm putting Mel Ott down by ranking him #4 in RF. But....


And DIGG: I agree with you about Pedro. I'm not that hot on "Runs Created," until some flaws are worked out, but I think Adjusted ERA is the best new stat I've seen in decades. And, as I'm sure you know, he is almost 1/2 again farther above his period norm than the career leader, Lefty Grove (the #1 pitcher, excluding active pitchers--i.e., Pedro).

The HUGE rap on Pedro is his now 2+ year-old problem going over 6 or 7 innings. Greatest inning-for-inning or not, you can't be the greatest pitcher ever if the big majority of your starts have you out after 6 or 7 innings, and long relievers in. At least, not in my view.

But, after y'all have talked me into upgrading Johnson to #4 (and maybe #2 someday), I'm still watching or reading play-by-play on every Pedro game, and the highlights on ESPN, and damn, am I impressed. Plus, I believe he's got a few months to go before #35 arrives. Combine his 5 ERA titles--exceeded only by my idol Grove and the Rocket--and his other-worldly Adjusted ERA and W-L %... well, if he can pitch well, not phenomenally and incredibly, but just quite well, for another 5 years, I think he displaces Grove and all the RHP's, and winds up as the best pitcher ever.

BUT DO YOU THINK HE AND HIS ARM AND HIS SKILLS WILL LAST THAT LONG??? If he's to be anointed best pitcher ever, he doesn't need 300 wins necessarily, but he needs, what, 270 or 280, at least? Right? And a couple more ERA titles would be a great idea, too. Tying with Clemens, and being behind only Groves... well, I think it would get him at least #1 righty, if not #1 pitcher. And I think his long peak (1997-2003) beats those of Johnson (1912-1919) even Maddux, though those are debatable.

BHN

[ElHalo]

That's a conclusional assertion. I was hoping for something more along the lines of a factual response.

Fair enough.

Mike Schmidt was a career .267 hitter. That's slightly lower than Doug Mientkiewicz. He just couldn't hit the ball. Finished in the top 10 in BA none times in non-strike years. Never hit safely more than 160 times in a season. Couldn't convert his power into doubles (finishing in the top 10 only twice) because he couldn't make bat and ball meet at all.

The job of a hitter is exactly that... hitting the ball. Ordinarily you need three things to be a good contact hitter. Speed, eyes, and small motor control. He could steal a base; he had speed. He could draw walks; he had good eyes. He was a good fielder; that requires good hands. The only conclusion to be drawn is that he made a willful decision to refuse to contact hit in favor of brutish, mouth breathing station to station baseball. That's absolutely unforgivable. He intentionally disregarded his primary purpose as a hitter (i.e., hitting) in favor of the gaudiness of home runs.

There are few people in the history of organized sport I despise more than Mike Schmidt. To hear people mention his name makes me cringe; to hear people call him a truly great player makes me want to beat my chest and tear my hair out while howling in agony. It's hard enough for me to admit that a player who can't be bothered to hit .270 for his career should be allowed on a baseball diamond; to hear such a monster compared to a truly great player like ARod makes me weep.

Is that a better answer?

[Yankwood]

So what do you think about Killebrew-.256

[BaseballHistoryNut]

BHN,

EH is not a fan of either Morgan or Schmidt, its one of his quirks.

BTW, how does Pedro not make every one of these lists. Assuming you can assemble a bullpen of all time greats, why not include the best inning for inning pitcher in baseball history, so what if he only goes seven and you have to turn it over to Eck and Mo?...


I think I can answer that. I thought about him as a reliever, too, but dismissed the idea for this reason: It's LONG been true that if you want to get to Pedro, you have to do it FAST, before he gets in that ferocious groove. And that can be done. Indeed, he's been reached for at least one, two or three runs early on in several starts this year.

That's NOT what you'd want in a closer. That was my thinking, anyway.

[ElHalo]

But I'm rock-solid behind Morgan, and I have to tell you, I just cannot for the life of me see picking Gehringer over him. Hornsby or Collins? I sure don't agree, but yeah, I can see it. But no way can I see Gehringer. And I say that as a very big Gehringer fan. He was a hell of a player. I'm not putting him down any more than I'm putting Mel Ott down by ranking him where I do. But....

Chuck Gehringer was a VASTLY superior defensive player. If you don't believe me, you need to read up more on Gehringer. Morgan was very, very good. The mechanical man is arguably top 5 all time at 2B defense.

Charlie was a much better contact hitter than Joe, with his six top 10's in BA to Morgan's 2, and hit at least .300 13 of 14 years (.298 the other year), while Joe could only reach that level twice (yes, yes, I know, era differences and all, but the point's still valid).

Morgan's meat and potatoes was walk drawing, which is something Gehringer was no slouch at (cracking that top 10 eight times).

Joe was a significanlty better home run hitter, but the fact that Charlie beat out doubles like they owed him money makes him the superior power hitter in my mind.

Joe was the better base stealer by a good amount, while Charlie was very good for his era, but not on Joe's level.

Basically, we've got two players who were very good at a lot of different things, with one better than the other at some, and one better than the other at others. Charlie's all-time defense and Joe Morgan's .271 are enough to not make it particularly close in my view.

[ElHalo]

So what do you think about Killebrew-.256

Killebrew doesn't bother me... because nobody calls him one of the greatest of all time. If people were more reasonable, and ranked Schmidt around 50th all time or so, I wouldn't have an unkind word to say about the guy.

[ElHalo]

I think I can answer that. I thought about him as a reliever, too, but dismissed the idea for this reason: It's LONG been true that if you want to get to Pedro, you have to do it FAST, before he gets in that ferocious groove. And that can be done. Indeed, he's been reached for at least one, two or three runs early on in several starts this year.


I think you missed his point. He wasn't talking about using Pedro as a closer.

The dig on Pedro is that he can't finish games. He goes for six or seven innings and is done. Putting that aside, though, he is, inning for inning, the greatest starting pitcher to have ever lived.

If you've got a team where you can pick anybody you want -- and you can throw Rivera and Wilhelm and Eckersley out of the bullpen -- why on Earth wouldn't you want Pedro in your rotation? Sure, he won't be able to go deep in games. But if you can get seven innings of Pedro and two of Rivera, isn't that better than nine innings of anybody else ever?

[digglahhh]

Thanks, EH. That's what I meant. With a bullpen of legends, Pedro's weakness is moot.

I have often wondered, rhetorically, if the media's portrayal of Pedro's fragility and inability to finish games would be the same if he had a stable and solid relief core behind him, with a big time closer to boot.

Give him Anaheim's bullpen, that rarely blows games, and perhaps Pedro's limited capacity is not such a huge issue in the media.

I think it is absurd to hold it against Pedro that he doesn't pitch tons and tons of innings in the pedestrian, daily news article sense. In terms of the all-time greats, its a legitimate knock. Within the context of his day it is absurd to really even mention, IMO.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

Fair enough.

Mike Schmidt was a career .267 hitter. That's slightly lower than Doug Mientkiewicz. He just couldn't hit the ball. Finished in the top 10 in BA none times in non-strike years. Never hit safely more than 160 times in a season. Couldn't convert his power into doubles (finishing in the top 10 only twice) because he couldn't make bat and ball meet at all.

The job of a hitter is exactly that... hitting the ball. Ordinarily you need three things to be a good contact hitter. Speed, eyes, and small motor control. He could steal a base; he had speed. He could draw walks; he had good eyes. He was a good fielder; that requires good hands. The only conclusion to be drawn is that he made a willful decision to refuse to contact hit in favor of brutish, mouth breathing station to station baseball. That's absolutely unforgivable. He intentionally disregarded his primary purpose as a hitter (i.e., hitting) in favor of the gaudiness of home runs.

There are few people in the history of organized sport I despise more than Mike Schmidt. To hear people mention his name makes me cringe; to hear people call him a truly great player makes me want to beat my chest and tear my hair out while howling in agony. It's hard enough for me to admit that a player who can't be bothered to hit .270 for his career should be allowed on a baseball diamond; to hear such a monster compared to a truly great player like ARod makes me weep.

Is that a better answer?


Yes. You place ENORMOUSLY greater emphasis on batting average than I do (I'll forgive a mediocre average where there are walks), and Schmidt is a guy who hits your hot buttons.

I will admit right now--and y'all can remember this and throw it in my face whenever you want--to a guy who hits my hot buttons: ROGERS HORNSBY. I absolutely hate the guy. Cobb is always the first guy cited when someone wants to name a horrible person from old-time players, but Hornsby was just as racist, PLUS:

Nobody ever wanted to trade Cobb. He was with Detroit for 22 years, and only left there because of Landis's crusade against him. Hornsby, by contrast, was bounced from team to team, despite gaudy stats. And despite losing those gaudy stats, his ex-teams improved. A real example of what they call "addition by subtraction."

I ordinarily don't feel that we, the public, can surmise "team chemistry" factors because we weren't there in the locker room, day after day. But in Hornsby's case, it's all too obvious. I know that Schalk, Cochrane and some official MLB dignitary were the only three MLB people at Cobb's funeral, but wasn't that more than attended Hornsby's?

Anyway, I'm quite certain my opinion of Hornsby is not why I have Morgan
#1. In fairness, though, it may well be a big part of why I have Robinson #2 and Collins (sometimes) #3. THAT bias I will admit to.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

[QUOTE=digglahhh]Thanks, EH. That's what I meant.

I apologize. I waxed long and eloquent in response to a question you never asked me. I wonder if I can delete that post. :noidea

[baseballPAP]

All time team, 25 man roster:
C-Bench
1B-Gehrig
2B-Collins*
3B-Schmidt
SS-Wagner
LF-Bonds
CF-Cobb
RF-Ruth

Bench
C-Gibson
3B/SS-ARod
2B-Morgan
1B-Foxx(also emergency C)
CF-Mays
LF/PR-Henderson
OF/1B- Musial

Pitchers:
Rotation-Johnson, Maddux, Grove, Clemens, Cy Young
Long Relief-Pedro
setup-Wilhelm, Quiz, Eckersley
closer-Rivera

*- Collins is my #2 at 2B, but I would MUCH rather have him on my team than my #1, Hornsby. Morgan is my #3, and got the spot instead of Hornsby on the bench for the added LH bat off the bench.

The lineup:
1-Cobb no greater disruptor on the basepaths
2-Wagner better bat control, more of a team player...better suited for #2
3-Ruth
4-Gehrig Yanks really had something special
5-Bonds might drive in 200 in this lineup...no pitching around him
6-Gibson(DH) not the best C, but what a DH
7-Schmidt that BA doesn't hurt at #7
8-Bench see Schmidt
9-Collins another .400 OBP at the bottom

Yeah.....that'll work :)

[Blackout]

What the heck. When in Rome . . . eat pasta, with prawns/mushrooms/broccoli.


My All-Time All-Star teams, A & B

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--A Team--------------------------B Team
1B George Sisler------------------Lou Gehrig
2B Eddie Collins------------------Rogers Hornsby
3B Mike Schmidt-------------------George Brett
SS Honus Wagner-------------------"Pop" Lloyd
LF Willie Mays--------------------Joe Jackson
CF Tris Speaker-------------------Oscar Charleston
RF Ty Cobb-----------------------Roberto Clemente
C Buck Ewing / "Biz" Mackay-----Johnny Bench / Ivan Rodriguez
DH: Babe Ruth---------------------Ted Williams (DH is optional)
SP: Walter Johnson----------------Lefty Grove
SP: Christy Mathewson-------------Bob Feller
SP: Nolan Ryan--------------------"Smokey Joe" Williams
SP: Sandy Koufax------------------"Bullet Joe" Rogan
Long R: Pete Alexander------------Juan Marichal
Short R: Warren Spahn-------------Mordecai Brown
Short R: Satchel Paige------------Greg Maddux
Closer: Rube Waddell--------------Amos Rusie
Man.: Connie Mack-----------------Casey Stengel
Ass. Man.: John McGraw------------Ned Hanlon

I think it is balanced in terms of eras, black/white, offense/defense,
slugger/ set-up hitter, power pitcher/control pitcher.


My Bench--------------------------My Bench
Willie Keeler---------------------Joe DiMaggio
Roger Clemens---------------------John Beckwith
Nap Lajoie------------------------Ken Griffey, Jr.
Martin Dihigo---------------------Bill Lange
Jackie Robinson-------------------Randy Johnson
"King" Kelly----------------------Alex Rodriguez
Addie Joss
----------------------------------------------------------------
My All-Time Defensive All-Star Teams, A & B

---A Team-------------------------B Team

1B Hal Chase----------------------George Sisler
2B-Joe Gordon---------------------Eddie Collins
SS-Ozzie Smith--------------------Herman Long / Bobby Wallace
3B-Billy Cox----------------------Brooks Robinson
LF-Richie Ashburn-----------------Willie Mays
CF-Tris Speaker-------------------Bill Lange
RF-Johnny McAleer-----------------Max Carey
C-"Buck" Ewing--------------------Charlie Bennett / Bench
C- Biz Mackey---------------------Ray Schalk / Kling
P-Warren Spahn--------------------Walter Johnson

Honorable Mentions
Bill Mazeroski(2B), Andruw Jones(OF), Torri Hunter(OF),
Mickey Cochrane(C), Ossie Bluege(3B), Glenn Wright(SS), Mike Schmidt
(3B), Charlie Gehringer(2B), Jim Edmonds(OF), Ivan (Pudge)
Rodriquez(C), Jimmy Sheckard(OF), Honus Wagner(SS).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My All-Time Black Teams, A & B,
---------------------------------

A Team-------------------------------------B Team

1B - "Buck" Leonard;------------------------1B - Ben Taylor
2B - Jackie Robinson;-----------------------2B - "Bingo" DeMoss;
3B - Oliver Marcell;------------------------3B - Judy Johnson:
SS - John Henry Lloyd;----------------------SS - Willie Wells:
LF - Barry Bonds;---------------------------LF - Hank Aaron;
CF - Oscar Charleston;----------------------CF - "Cool Papa" Bell;
RF - Willie Mays;---------------------------RF - Roberto Clemente;
C - "Biz" Mackay / Gibson;------------------C - Bruce Petway / Campanella
DH - Christobal Torrienti;------------------DH - Louis "Santop" Loftin
SP - "Satchel" Paige;------------------------P - Juan Marichal
SP - "Smokey Joe" Williams;------------------P - "Cannonball" Dick Redding
SP - "Bullet Joe" Rogan;---------------------P - Nip Winters
SP - Pedro Martinez;-------------------------P - "Dizzy" Dismukes
RP - Bob Gibson;-----------------------------P - Don Newcombe
RP - John Donaldson;-------------------------P - Dave Stuart
RP - Willie Foster;--------------------------P - Mariano Rivera
Closer - Slim Jones
Manager; "Rube" Foster;----------------------Manager - Cum Posey.
Coaches; "Dizzy" Dismukes, Danny McClelland;-Coaches - C.I. Taylor



Roberto Clemente is your b-team starter, but Mickey Mantle can't even make the bench????

[soberdennis]

Even though it is not required, I am going to limit mine to only players I have seen. I have followe baseball since 1964.
c- Johnny Bench
1b-Mark McGwire
2b-Joe Morgan
3b-Alex Rodriguez
SS-Ozzie Smith
LF-Hank Aaron
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Roberto Clemente
RHSP-Bob Gibson
Roger Clemons
LHSP-Steve Carlton
Sandy Koufax
Closer-Mariano Rivera

Bench
Mickey Mantle
Mike Schmidt
Rod Carew
Rickey Henderson
Lou Brock
Carlton Fisk
Carl Yaztriemski
Agreed, I am severely limiting myself by just going by who I saw. But I think that makes a pretty good team.
A couple observations.
1. i feel Clemente was the greatest I ever saw. He could do everyting on the field, at bat, and on the basepaths. I once saw him field a ball off the RF wall at Shea Stadium and gun a runner down at 3B on the fly. Best arm I ever saw.
2. Two of the greatest pitching seasons I ever saw were Gibson,1968 (1.12 ERA with 7 losses. How can you lose 7 games with that ERA?) and Carlton's in 1972.(27 wins on a team that won only 59, amazing.
For my manager, I'd choose Tony Larussa over Cox, Martin, Williams-just to name a few.

[Yankwood]

Even though it is not required, I am going to limit mine to only players I have seen. I have followe baseball since 1964.
c- Johnny Bench
1b-Mark McGwire
2b-Joe Morgan
3b-Alex Rodriguez
SS-Ozzie Smith
LF-Hank Aaron
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Roberto Clemente
RHSP-Bob Gibson
Roger Clemons
LHSP-Steve Carlton
Sandy Koufax
Closer-Mariano Rivera

Bench
Mickey Mantle
Mike Schmidt
Rod Carew
Rickey Henderson
Lou Brock
Carlton Fisk
Carl Yaztriemski
Agreed, I am severely limiting myself by just going by who I saw. But I think that makes a pretty good team.
A couple observations.
1. i feel Clemente was the greatest I ever saw. He could do everyting on the field, at bat, and on the basepaths. I once saw him field a ball off the RF wall at Shea Stadium and gun a runner down at 3B on the fly. Best arm I ever saw.
2. Two of the greatest pitching seasons I ever saw were Gibson,1968 (1.12 ERA with 7 losses. How can you lose 7 games with that ERA?) and Carlton's in 1972.(27 wins on a team that won only 59, amazing.
For my manager, I'd choose Tony Larussa over Cox, Martin, Williams-just to name a few.Soberdennis, I started watching baseball the same season as you and as I looked at your list, the only ones I agree with as no brainers for our era are Bench, Mays and Aaron. I put F. Robinson a pencil line above Clemente but have no problem with anyone selecting Clemente. The thing about Clemente for people who never saw him play, is that you almost looked at him in right as you would a batter. There seemed to be an almost "offensive" presence to his play in rightfield. You were scared of him, in other words.
Actually, Morgan is probably a no-brainer too. At third I'll take Schmidt over Arod just because I still have this notion that we judge Arod as a shortstop. If it's defense you prefer, Ozzie is your obvious choice but that's where I would slide Arod over to to take that position.
My personal dislike (sorry) for McGwire leads me to Killebrew at first. He did alot of his damage during the pitcher's era.
Your pitchers are tough to fin fault with. I just wish there was a spot to slip Seaver in somehow. I don't know how but maybe I'd carry an extra pitcher.

Also, I'm glad you slipped in the part about Gibson's 1968 season. Again, living the season through radio station KMOX as I did, I think some of the impact of giving up a shade over a run a game over an entire season is not getting the attention it deserves, pitchers year or not. Koufax for one game during his peak years though is still my wish if I was managing one game.

Really can't find anything wrong with your list though. Nice job, play ball!!!

[Budtaff]

C- Johnny Bench
1B- Lou Gehrig
2B- Rogers Hornsby
3B- Mike Schmidt
SS- Honus Wagner
LF- Ted Williams
CF- Willie Mays
RF- Babe Ruth

SP- Lefty Grove
SP- Cy Young
SP- Christy Mathewson
SP- Roger Clemens
SP- Walter Johnson
CP- Mariano Rivera

My lineup would be:

Wagner
Hornsby
Ruth
Gehrig
Williams
Mays
Schmidt
Bench

I'd have to have a defensive sub for Williams in LF though. Maybe Cobb who I'd put in LF and then move Ted to DH if we used one. Tough to leave Cobb out!

[soberdennis]

Soberdennis, I started watching baseball the same season as you and as I looked at your list, the only ones I agree with as no brainers for our era are Bench, Mays and Aaron. I put F. Robinson a pencil line above Clemente but have no problem with anyone selecting Clemente. The thing about Clemente for people who never saw him play, is that you almost looked at him in right as you would a batter. There seemed to be an almost "offensive" presence to his play in rightfield. You were scared of him, in other words.
Actually, Morgan is probably a no-brainer too. At third I'll take Schmidt over Arod just because I still have this notion that we judge Arod as a shortstop. If it's defense you prefer, Ozzie is your obvious choice but that's where I would slide Arod over to to take that position.
My personal dislike (sorry) for McGwire leads me to Killebrew at first. He did alot of his damage during the pitcher's era.
Your pitchers are tough to fin fault with. I just wish there was a spot to slip Seaver in somehow. I don't know how but maybe I'd carry an extra pitcher.

Also, I'm glad you slipped in the part about Gibson's 1968 season. Again, living the season through radio station KMOX as I did, I think some of the impact of giving up a shade over a run a game over an entire season is not getting the attention it deserves, pitchers year or not. Koufax for one game during his peak years though is still my wish if I was managing one game.

Really can't find anything wrong with your list though. Nice job, play ball!!!
Thank you. Of course, any list is subjective. There are players I had to leave off to make the list of reasonable size.
I think Gibson actually lost 9 games that year, which makes it even more incredible.
The main reason I chose McGwire was that he had a decent glove, too. Killebrew tended to be a defensive problem at times.
I do almost wish I could find room for Brooks. He shouldn't have won as many GGs though. Nettles, for one could have won some. Brooks was a great fielder. But they gave him the GG as if he was the only great fielding 3b man in the league.

[Yankwood]

It's always been easy to keep giving Gold Gloves to the same guys. Jim Kaat? Raphael Palmeiro won one when he only played a bunch of games at first. True Gold Gloves are rare anyway. Offensive numbers have always slipped into the mix. I always thought Eddie Brinkman was as fluid and sure handed as anyone I've seen at SS but he had trouble hitting .220 and his teams weren't very good so he never got the exposure Belanger did, who was also a lousy hitter. More people saw Belanger than Brinkman.

[Wee Willie]

Lineup:

Honus Wagner, SS
Ty Cobb, LF
Ted Williams, DH
Babe Ruth, RF
Lou Gehrig, 1B
Willie Mays, CF
Josh Gibson, C
Mike Schmidt, 3B
Eddie Collins, 2B

Rotation:

SP1 - Walter Johnson
SP2 - Roger Clemens
SP3 - Lefty Grove
SP4 - Cy Young
SP5 - Greg Maddux

RP1 - Hoyt Wilhelm
RP2 - Mariano Rivera

[Taco De Muerte]

C - Bench
1B - Musial
2B - Morgan
SS - Wagner
3B - Schmidt
RF - Ruth
CF - Mays
LF - Bonds

SP - Walter Johnson
SP - Cy Young
SP - Roger Clemens
SP - Greg Maddux
SP - Lefty Grove

[Eastvanmungo]

Most of the other teams posted could probably mop the floor with mine... but what the hell:

C - Mickey Cochrane
1B - Cecil Cooper
2B - Julio Cruz
3B - Graig Nettles
SS - Ozzie Smith
OF - Pete Reiser
OF - Cool Papa Bell
OF - Roberto Clemente

Bench - Pepper Martin, Jimmy Piersall, Gorman Thomas, Hughie Jennings, Heinie Zimmerman, Moises Alou, Dick Stuart, Bruce Bochte

SP - Van Lingle Mungo
SP - Nolan Ryan
SP - Satchel Paige
SP - Rube Waddell
SP - Randy Johnson

RP - Dan Quisenberry
RP - Goose Gossage

Manager - John McGraw

[soberdennis]

Most of the other teams posted could probably mop the floor with mine... but what the hell:

C - Mickey Cochrane
1B - Cecil Cooper
2B - Julio Cruz
3B - Graig Nettles
SS - Ozzie Smith
OF - Pete Reiser
OF - Cool Papa Bell
OF - Roberto Clemente

Bench - Pepper Martin, Jimmy Piersall, Gorman Thomas, Hughie Jennings, Heinie Zimmerman, Moises Alou, Dick Stuart, Bruce Bochte

SP - Van Lingle Mungo
SP - Nolan Ryan
SP - Satchel Paige
SP - Rube Waddell
SP - Randy Johnson

RP - Dan Quisenberry
RP - Goose Gossage

Manager - John McGraw
On the one hand, you are right that most of the teams listed would normaally beat yours IMO. But you have some good plkayers there.
Your infield defense is amazing. People forget just how great a glove Nettles had because he was oblcured by Robinson. But there were years he was at least Brooks' equal. Cooper was a great glove also. I've already posted what I think of Clemente.
Don't knock your team too much. It's a good team.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

On the one hand, you are right that most of the teams listed would normaally beat yours IMO. But you have some good plkayers there.
Your infield defense is amazing. People forget just how great a glove Nettles had because he was oblcured by Robinson. But there were years he was at least Brooks' equal. Cooper was a great glove also. I've already posted what I think of Clemente.
Don't knock your team too much. It's a good team.

Well, yeah, I think in the long haul they would mop the floor with your team. BUT, in the World Series, if your pitchers were hot, with that incredible array of fielders you have? Your players would have to score a run or two here or there in most games, right? Well, most of the time. And when your pitchers keep the ball in the park, it might be hard for the other team to... in a best-of-7 format, I mean.

Over a full season, a Murderers' Row team kills you guys. But well all know of World Series where your kind of team just flat shut down the kind of team we all are picking, right? I lost quite a bit of money on it, a couple of times.

BHN

[Windy City Fan]

2B Eddie Collins
SS Honus Wagner
RF Ty Cobb
LF Babe Ruth
CF Willie Mays
1B Lou Gerhig
C Mickey Cochrane
3B Wade Boggs

UT Pete Rose
C Yogi Berra
OF Rickey Henderson
UT Jackie Robinson
OF Stan Musial
OF Frank Robinson
UT Ozzie Smith

SP Greg Maddux
SP Roger Clemens
SP Walter Johnson
SP Cy Young
SP Pete Alexander

RP Mariano Rivera
RP Goose Gossage
RP Bruce Sutter
RP Billy Wagner
RP Hoyt Wilhelm

Boggs is probably the most questionable pick, and I really don't think Boggs was the best third baseman ever, but he fits my team better than the 3 guys ahead of him. A contact hitter with a good eye who rarely strikesout is a nice #8 hitter. And while Boggs didn't have a historically great glove, he wasn't a slouch at the hot corner either.

My team has an excellent OBP, great speed, and still has plenty of power to go with a solid defense. I strongly feel my staff is the best possible mix of pitchers. No left handed starter, but I don't think it really matters when I have the five guys I have.

If I had to pick a team on guys I've seen play ....

RF Rickey Henderson (had to find a spot for the greatest leadoff man ever)
3B Wade Boggs
SS Alex Rodriguez
LF Barry Bonds (even with a discount for his steriod years)
CF Ken Griffey Jr.
1B Jeff Bagwell
2B Ryne Sandburg
C Ivan Rodriguez

C Mike Piazza
UT Ozzie Smith
UT Robin Yount
UT Craig Biggio
OF Tony Gwyn
OF Gary Sheffield
OF Tim Raines

SP Greg Maddux
SP Roger Clemens
SP Randy Johnson
SP Pedro Martinez
SP Tom Glavine

RP Mariano Rivera
RP Dennis Eckersley
RP Billy Wagner
RP Trevor Hoffman
RP John Franco

[Francoeurstein]

Most of the other teams posted could probably mop the floor with mine... but what the hell:

C - Mickey Cochrane
1B - Cecil Cooper
2B - Julio Cruz
3B - Graig Nettles
SS - Ozzie Smith
OF - Pete Reiser
OF - Cool Papa Bell
OF - Roberto Clemente

Bench - Pepper Martin, Jimmy Piersall, Gorman Thomas, Hughie Jennings, Heinie Zimmerman, Moises Alou, Dick Stuart, Bruce Bochte

SP - Van Lingle Mungo
SP - Nolan Ryan
SP - Satchel Paige
SP - Rube Waddell
SP - Randy Johnson

RP - Dan Quisenberry
RP - Goose Gossage

Manager - John McGraw


AMEN!!!! THE NEW SOCKEYE!!!

[philkid3]

Has this topic already been made? If so, link me. If not, I'm interested in starting one.

[DiMag4Life]

You mean an all time draft?

[philkid3]

No, given personal selection to make a team out of whatever players you want, what would your roster, rotation, bullpen and lineup look like. Even your 40 man roster.

Although a draft certainly interestes me.

[OleMissCub]

No, given personal selection to make a team out of whatever players you want, what would your roster, rotation, bullpen and lineup look like. Even your 40 man roster.

Although a draft certainly interestes me.

SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Roger Clemens
SP: Greg Maddux
SP: Christy Matthewson
SP: Satchel Paige

RP: Bruce Sutter
RP: Rollie Fingers
RP: Dennis Eckersley
CP: Mariano Rivera

C: Johnny Bench
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Rogers Hornsby
SS: Honus Wagner
3B: Alex Rodriguez
OF: Ted Williams
OF: Ty Cobb
OF: Babe Ruth

Bench:
C: Yogi Berra
OF: Willie Mays
OF: Barry Bonds
OF: Stan Musial
OF: Hank Aaron
INF: Ernie Banks
INF: Mike Schmidt
INF: George Brett
INF: Eddie Collins

[AstrosFan]

. . . of players not in your personal Hall of Fame. Ignore ineligible players for this, so no Pete Rose or Shoeless Joe Jackson. What does the team look like? Go for either a starting lineup plus pitcher, or a full 25 man roster. I would like to see reasons for your choices.

[PeteReiser]

. . . of players not in your personal Hall of Fame. Ignore ineligible players for this, so no Pete Rose or Shoeless Joe Jackson. What does the team look like? Go for either a starting lineup plus pitcher, or a full 25 man roster. I would like to see reasons for your choices.

C) Bench/Berra

1B) Foxx/Gehrig

2B) Sandberg

SS) Schmidt

3B) Boggs

CF) Mays

OF) Mantle

OF) Ruth

DH) Williams

P) Maddux

P) Martinez

P) Clemens

P) W. Johnson

P) Wilhelm

P) Koufax

P) Hubbell

P) Randy Johnson

NOTES: I know I have some splain'in to do...

I am picking a TEAM, not necessarily the greatest stats guy at each position. I need to have some speed on the basepaths and good fielding to go with hitting. Variety is even more important on the pitching staff, where I picked 5 RH's and 3 LH's also the reason for choosing Hubbell and Wilhelm is that it would be devastating, in addition to the control and fastball pitchers I have, to be able to bring in the 2 greatest masters (in my opinion) of the screwball and knuckler ever. (I would use Hubbell as a reliever also) All types of pitchers and pitches would be available for any situation.

Bench/Berra and Foxx/Gehrig are platooned. If I was to pick just one at these positions, it would be Bench and Foxx.

Sandberg over Hornsby? Better fielder/base stealer. Hornsby's hitting would be better but not my as much once it was adjusted for era.

Schmidt as a SS? He played short a few times and I can't see why he would not be just as much a gold-glover at that position. That given, there's no SS I could choose over him all other abilities considered.

Mays over DiMaggio - a close call. The two are neck and neck in most catagories but I just can't believe Joe was quite the fielder/thrower Mays was.

Mantle and Koufax are "healthy" choices, that is, I am imagining their careers without the bad legs and elbow. (They might make the cut anyway, but without their career - damaging ailments, they are a shoe-in)

Randy Johnson, I don't know. I could have picked 5 or 10 others but I figure if I am looking for a reliever at that point, a 100 mph fastball coming down at you from 6'10 up is pretty unnerving.

[PeteReiser]

Mays over DiMaggio - a close call. The two are neck and neck in most catagories but I just can't believe Joe was quite the fielder/thrower Mays was

P.S. (Or as good a base runner)

[leecemark]

--Pete, Astro is asking for your best team of players who DON'T belong in the Hall of Fame. The best guys who you wouldn't quite want to make it to Cooperstown.

[leecemark]

C: Elston Howard, Lance Parrish
1B: Will Clark, Gil Hodges
2B: Willie Randolph, Del Pratt
3B: Darrell Evans, Buddy Bell
SS: Davey Conception, Jack Glasscock
LF: Frank Howard, George Burns
CF: Fred Lynn, George Van Haltren
RF: Dave Parker, Dwight Evans
SP: Carl Mays, Billy Pierce, Bret Saberhagen, Tommy John
RP: Dan Quisenberry, Sparky Lyle

[AstrosFan]

Exactly. You may use players who are in the actual Hall of Fame, if you don't think he belongs in the Hall.

[Baseball Guru]

This is similar to a thread that is in the HOF forum:)

Here's mine:

C: Ted Simmons
1B: Dick Allen
2B: Joe Gordon
3B: Ron Santo
SS: Alan Trammell
OF: Andre Dawson
OF: Lefty O'Doul
OF: Albert Belle
SP: Bert Blyleven
SP: Carl Mays
SP: Bob Caruthers
SP: Tony Mullane
SP: Joe Wood
RP: Goose Gossage
RP: Dan Quisenberry
P: Jim McCormick
P: Jim Kaat
P: Jack Morris

[JRB]

NOTES: I know I have some splain'in to do...

Sandberg over Hornsby? Better fielder/base stealer. Hornsby's hitting would be better but not my as much once it was adjusted for era.

Schmidt as a SS? He played short a few times and I can't see why he would not be just as much a gold-glover at that position. That given, there's no SS I could choose over him all other abilities considered.



You sure do have some splainin to do. You seem to be claiming that Hornsby is not much better a hitter than Sandberg after "adjustment for era". A 113 career OPS+ hitter is just about as good a hitter as a a player with a 176 career OPS+? If you are making such fantastically radical era adjustments then Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, and Jimmie Foxx should also have had no place on your team. The fact that they are on your team shows intellectual inconsistency.

Mike Schmidt over Honus Wagner at shortstop? Mike Schmidt has more abilities than Honus Wagner at shortstop?

Let me suggest that you read the Rogers Hornsby thread which is one of the threads on this forum. In 1963 Hornsby was voted the greatest player in National League history by the Society of Baseball Writers. Just because one later writer, Bill James, has carried on a personal vendetta of hatred for the past 27 years to trash him in his books is no reasaon for you not to learn the actual facts about his ability and career. I would also suggest that you read the book on Honus Wagner by Dennis and Jeannie DeValeria and hopefully you will gain more insight on Wagner's abiliities, which are considerably more than Schmidt's though I do think he is the all time greatest third baseman.

[leecemark]

This is similar to a thread that is in the HOF forum:)

Here's mine:

C: Ted Simmons
1B: Dick Allen
2B: Joe Gordon
3B: Ron Santo
SS: Alan Trammell
OF: Andre Dawson
OF: Lefty O'Doul
OF: Albert Belle
SP: Bert Blyleven
SP: Carl Mays
SP: Bob Caruthers
SP: Tony Mullane
SP: Joe Wood
RP: Goose Gossage
RP: Dan Quisenberry
P: Jim McCormick
P: Jim Kaat
P: Jack Morris

--That is a great team of non-Hall of Famers. Do you think none of them belong in the Hall though?

[ElHalo]

I must say; this is an interesting excersize, that really made me analyze things. Good show.

C: Jorge Posada
1B: Hal Trosky
2B: Ryne Sandberg
SS: Vern Stephens
3B: Chipper Jones
OF: Sherry Magee
OF: Earle Combs
OF: Reggie Jackson

C2: Gary Carter
IF: Ron Santo
IF: Billy Herman
IF: Willie McCovey
OF: Harry Stovey
OF: Max Carey
OF: Dave Winfield

SP: Lefty Gomez
SP: Wes Ferrell
SP: Don Drysdale
SP: Curt Schilling
SP: Mike Mussina

CL: John Franco
RP: Dennis Eckersley
RP: Bruce Sutter
RP: Firpo Marburry
RP: Billy Wagner

[538280]

3B: Chipper Jones


I'm not even going to comment on your 3rd outfielder (I'm surprised Mike Schmidt wasn't in this spot instead), but why exactly do you not have Chipper Jones in the HOF? He's still active and still going strong so he could add even more to his resume but right now even he's played nearly 2000 games and his OPS+ is right up there among 3Bmen with Schmidt and Mathews. He's never been all that great defensively, which hurts him, but I still think he's easily right now a top 10 3Bman of all time, and may be top 5 before he's done. The only 3Bmen who are even comparable offensive players are Schmidt, Mathews, Brett, and Boggs early in his career, and knowing your love for BA you might not even have Schmidt and Mathews in that list so you're talking about one of the best offensive players ever from his position.

[ElHalo]

I'm not even going to comment on your 3rd outfielder (I'm surprised Mike Schmidt wasn't in this spot instead), but why exactly do you not have Chipper Jones in the HOF? He's still active and still going strong so he could add even more to his resume but right now even he's played nearly 2000 games and his OPS+ is right up there among 3Bmen with Schmidt and Mathews. He's never been all that great defensively, which hurts him, but I still think he's easily right now a top 10 3Bman of all time, and may be top 5 before he's done. The only 3Bmen who are even comparable offensive players are Schmidt, Mathews, Brett, and Boggs early in his career, and knowing your love for BA you might not even have Schmidt and Mathews in that list so you're talking about one of the best offensive players ever from his position.

Chipper Jones reminds me almost exactly of Jeff Kent. Some of the best offensive numbers ever from his position, but mediocre defense and... well... nobody's ever really thought of him as a HoF'er. He's always been a very bland and very "dependable" ... but thoroughly un-electric and easily invisible... player. Much like Fred McGriff, without as much charisma. He seems like the kind of guy that will go off the HoF ballot on the first election, and forty years from now, people will look at his stat sheet and say "Hey, look at this guy's numbers. Why isn't he in the Hall?" Kent doesn't get the slot on the team because I don't think he's as good as Ryne Sandberg or Billy Herman, but he's got almost the exact same resume and issues, although Kent has been at least a little more fiery and noticible than Jones. When it comes to Braves' 3Bmen, I think Terry Pendleton, though he doesn't have nearly the numbers or, really, skill of Jones, has enough of a higher profile than Jones that he's the more likely candidate to make the Hall. And there's something to be said for that: If you're a complete and total cypher, despite good numbers and a crucial role on a dynasty team, there's probably a reason for it.

Mike Schmidt was very good, that's not deniable. I just think he wasn't quite as good as a lot of people make him out to be. He certainly belongs nowhere near a list like this.

Also; I made an edit to my list. I realized that Joe Sewell is easily good enough for the Hall, and so I switched him out at SS and put in Vern Stephens.

[CTaka]

I've never really thought about this before, so off the top of my head:

C - Joe Torre (as a C; he may be a deserving Hall member as a combination player/manager)
1B - Will Clark
2B - Ross Barnes
SS - Jack Glasscock
3B - Darrell Evans (Santo is clearly the best not in the Hall here, but I would put him in the HOF if I had a vote, so I didn't list him).
LF - Minnie Minoso
CF - Jimmy Wynn
RF - Bobby Bonds
SP - Catfish Hunter (good pitcher but I wouldn't put him in my Hall. I think Blyleven was more deserving, which is why I am not listing Bert)
SP - Carl Mays
SP - Luis Tiant
SP - Tony Mullane
SP - Lon Warneke
RP - Dan Quisenberry
RP - Mike Marshall (I was fascinated watching him and his rubber arm - over 200 IP in a single season as a reliever!)
RP - Ron Perranoski
RP - Robb Nen
RP - Randy Myers
RP - Troy Percival

Bench
C - Bill Freehan
IF - Lou Whitaker
IF - Alan Trammell
OF/1B - Frank Howard (too bad they didn't have a DH when Frank played)
OF - Fred Lynn
OF - Brett Butler (a personal favorite - loved to watch him fly down the line beating out bunt singles even though everyone knew it was coming).

[ChrisLDuncan]

DH: Jim Thome
C: Lance Parish
1B: John Olerud
2B: Bobby Doerr
SS: Miguel Tejada
3B: Brooks Robinson (maybe Scott Rolen)
OF: Jim Rice
OF: Andruw Jones (I may consider him as a HoFer more later)
OF: Kenny Lofton

SP: Dave Cone (I'm iffy on him)
SP: Carl Mays
SP: Orel Hershiser
SP: Mike Mussina
SP: Luis Tiant

RP: Robb Nen
RP: Tom Gordon
RP: Eric Gagne
RP: John Wetteland
RP: Troy Percival
RP: Bruce Sutter

[Gee Walker]

C: Gene Tenace
1B: Norm Cash
2B: Willie Randolph
3B: Graig Nettles
SS: Vern Stephens
RF: Bob Meusel (played LF mostly, but with his arm he'd be a great RF)
CF: Vada Pinson
LF: Charlie Keller
UT: Tony Phillips
UT: Gil McDougald
SP: Tommy Bridges
SP: Kevin Brown
SP: David Cone
SP: Mickey Lolich
SP: Ed Reulbach
RP: John Hiller
RP: Tom Henke

[Baseball Guru]

--That is a great team of non-Hall of Famers. Do you think none of them belong in the Hall though?

Uh oh! I kinda thought it was meant to be just NON-HOF'ers, not my own... Misread.. Sorry about that...

There are a few on that list that I feel are HOF'ers such as Blyleven, Santo, Caruthers, McCormick and Allen... Maybe a few others...

At 1B I'd throw in Clark or Hodges..

SP's- Wes Ferrell, Mike Mussina, Tony Mullane..

3B- Ken Boyer

[lovethegame]

I have been blessed to be a fan in a remarkable time for baseball so I'll just pick those HOF fellas I've seen
1b Willie McCovey 2b Ryne Sandberg ss Cal Ripken 3b Smitty c Bench rf Reggie cf Mays lf Henry Aaron
Seaver, Carlton,Gibby,Marichal, Jenkins
Wilhelm, Fingers

[DiMag4Life]

Chipper Jones reminds me almost exactly of Jeff Kent. Some of the best offensive numbers ever from his position, but mediocre defense and... well... nobody's ever really thought of him as a HoF'er. He's always been a very bland and very "dependable" ... but thoroughly un-electric and easily invisible... player. Much like Fred McGriff, without as much charisma. He seems like the kind of guy that will go off the HoF ballot on the first election, and forty years from now, people will look at his stat sheet and say "Hey, look at this guy's numbers. Why isn't he in the Hall?" Kent doesn't get the slot on the team because I don't think he's as good as Ryne Sandberg or Billy Herman, but he's got almost the exact same resume and issues, although Kent has been at least a little more fiery and noticible than Jones. When it comes to Braves' 3Bmen, I think Terry Pendleton, though he doesn't have nearly the numbers or, really, skill of Jones, has enough of a higher profile than Jones that he's the more likely candidate to make the Hall. And there's something to be said for that: If you're a complete and total cypher, despite good numbers and a crucial role on a dynasty team, there's probably a reason for it.

Mike Schmidt was very good, that's not deniable. I just think he wasn't quite as good as a lot of people make him out to be. He certainly belongs nowhere near a list like this.

Also; I made an edit to my list. I realized that Joe Sewell is easily good enough for the Hall, and so I switched him out at SS and put in Vern Stephens.

Aaron and Musial didn't have charisma either. I don't even know why that should even be part of the argument.

Now, I'm not saying Jones is the player Aaron or Musial was, but he's the best third basemen (other than A-Rod) of his era. If he's not a HoF'er, then there are a select few that even should be.

[RuthMayBond]

I must say; this is an interesting excersize, that really made me analyze things. Good show.

2B: Ryne Sandberg
3B: Chipper Jones
OF: Reggie Jackson

C2: Gary Carter
IF: Willie McCovey
OF: Dave Winfield

SP: Lefty Gomez

RP: Bruce Sutter
Let's say you have some tough standards (and I agree, EXCELLENT, difficult exercise)
SP-this is always gonna be a killer with so many to pick from
Pierce, Bridges, McGinnity, Saberhagen
RP-Hiller
C-Tenace
1B-Hernandez
2B-Herman
3B-Nettles
SS-VStephens
LF-SMagee
CF-JWynn
RF-Reggie Smith

[AstrosFan]

Since I opened the discussion, I think it's only fair that I participate.

C - Gene Tenace, Darrell Porter
1B - Don Mattingly, Norm Cash
2B - Bobby Doerr, Willie Randolph
3B - Graig Nettles, Ken Boyer
SS - Vern Stephens, Jim Fregosi
LF - Frank Howard, Charlie Keller
CF - Dale Murphy, Fred Lynn
RF - Reggie Smith, Bobby Bonds

SP - Tiant, Pierce, C. Mays, Bridges, Cone

RP - Hiller, Sutter, Lyle (for now. I may add more later).

[ChrisLDuncan]

Since I opened the discussion, I think it's only fair that I participate.

C - Gene Tenace, Darrell Porter
1B - Don Mattingly, Norm Cash
2B - Bobby Doerr, Willie Randolph
3B - Graig Nettles, Ken Boyer
SS - Vern Stephens, Jim Fregosi
LF - Frank Howard, Charlie Keller
CF - Dale Murphy, Fred Lynn
RF - Reggie Smith, Bobby Bonds

SP - Tiant, Pierce, C. Mays, Bridges, Cone

RP - Hiller, Sutter, Lyle (for now. I may add more later).

Would you guys expect your teams of "not quite" HoFers to win the pennant each season?

[538280]

Chipper Jones reminds me almost exactly of Jeff Kent. Some of the best offensive numbers ever from his position, but mediocre defense and... well...

I think the level of offense between Kent and Jones is pretty big. Kent has an OPS+ around 125 which is very good, certainly historically great, among 2Bmen, but there are quite a few other ones who are around him. Jones is in a group of three with his 144 OPS+-and those three are him, Mike Schmidt, and Eddie Mathews. IMO they're not really comparable in terms of where they rank historically at their positons as offensive players-Jones is far better than Kent.

nobody's ever really thought of him as a HoF'er.

I wouldn't say Jones is viewed as one of the greatest stars active today, but I certainly gather that the general consensus is that he is an extremely special and HOF type player. His MVP support over his career is of HOF level-81st best all time in MVP vote shares, and he won the 1999 NL MVP. I've also seen him get some MVP support from writers this year as well judging from the Sports Weekly polls. I think Jones is thought of as a HOFer.

He's always been a very bland and very "dependable" ... but thoroughly un-electric and easily invisible... player.

There's absolutley nothing wrong with that and it doesn't diminish what he's done in any way. There's nothing wrong with playing the game quietly, but still greatly. The HOF should recognize the best players and Chipper Jones is one of those, by an overwhelming margin (based on his numbers we're not even talking about a borderline case). To keep him out because it's perceived he didn't draw much attention to himself doesn't make any sense. Hank Aaron drew very little attention to himself as well-that doesn't diminish what he accomplished.

Jones did get into a little controversy early in his career anyway.....

Much like Fred McGriff, without as much charisma.

He's far better than McGriff.

He seems like the kind of guy that will go off the HoF ballot on the first election,

I seriously, seriously doubt it. I'd bet there might be no players who are even close to Jones' career performance in MVP voting who went one and done on the HOF ballot. Besides that I really do think Jones is regarded as a truly great player, even if he doesn't quite get the recognition he deserves.

and forty years from now, people will look at his stat sheet and say "Hey, look at this guy's numbers. Why isn't he in the Hall?" Kent doesn't get the slot on the team because I don't think he's as good as Ryne Sandberg or Billy Herman, but he's got almost the exact same resume and issues, although Kent has been at least a little more fiery and noticible than Jones.

Kent is one of my least favorite players ever, and represents almost everything I really don't like, but I still would put him in the HOF-his offense, while often overrated because of the era he plays in (announcers often refer to him as the best offensive 2B of all time), are still far too good from 2B to leave him out of the Hall.

When it comes to Braves' 3Bmen, I think Terry Pendleton, though he doesn't have nearly the numbers or, really, skill of Jones, has enough of a higher profile than Jones that he's the more likely candidate to make the Hall.

Even I have vague memories of Terry Pendleton as a player (and I still see him as a coach) and I don't think at all he has or ever has had a higher profile than Jones. Jones was the best position player most of the time on a former dynasty.

[CTaka]

I have been blessed to be a fan in a remarkable time for baseball so I'll just pick those HOF fellas I've seen
1b Willie McCovey 2b Ryne Sandberg ss Cal Ripken 3b Smitty c Bench rf Reggie cf Mays lf Henry Aaron
Seaver, Carlton,Gibby,Marichal, Jenkins
Wilhelm, Fingers

I am very surprised that you don't have these guys in your personal Hall of Fame. I can't imagine anyone arguing that Mays doesn't deserve to be in the Hall.

[Ortiz34fan]

Hello. So far, this forum has shown me some very nice people who are fun to talk to. I hate the merging threads thing, but heck, I probably should just try to make original threads. Here is my All-Time Team:

Line Up:

DH Ted Williams
C Josh Gibson
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Rogers Hornsby
SS Honus Wagner
3B Mike Schmidt
LF Barry Bonds
CF Willie Mays
RF Babe Ruth

Pitching Rotation:

SP1 Roger Clemens
SP2 Walter Johnson
SP3 Satchel Paige
SP4 Lefty Grove

Bullpen:

CP Mariano Rivera
SU Hoyt Wilhelm
MRP Goose Gossage
MRP Trevor Hoffman
MRP Dennis Eckersly

Bench:

C Mike Piazza
1B Jimmie Foxx
2B Joe Morgan
3B George Brett
LF Stan Musial
CF Ty Cobb
RF Hank Aaron

Manager:

M Joe McCarthy


I know that some of you will not like my choosing of Willie Mays as my All-Time center fielder above Ty Cobb. Well, Cobb has a .330 EqA to Mays' .329. That is not enough to eclipse the difference in fielding. Also, some of you might oppose of my choice of Roger Clemens as the best pitcher ever. Well, he threw a ton of innings for a man of his time, and had a 3.25 dERA with an ERA+ of 143. I also know that some could object to my decision to put Lefty Grove in there, and not Sandy Koufax. I'll tell you my opinion: Sandy Koufax is one of the most over-rated pitchers the game has ever known. He had a very short MLB career, and played in the most pitcher-friendly ballpark in the history of modern baseball.

Lefty Grove threw for 3941 innings in his major league career, having a 148 ERA+ with a dERA of 3.40. Sandy Koufax threw only 2324 innings in his career, with a 3.49 dERA and an ERA+ of 131. It's not close. Grove is far better.

[philkid3]

Only ones that really jump out to me are no Pedro and no A-Rod.

[Ortiz34fan]

Pedro's a bit better than Grove per inning pitched, but Grove has 2,000+ more innings pitched when I adjust for minor league injustice. I will compare A-Rod to Cal Ripken, a far, far worse player than Wagner. Cal has about 110 more runs created, and is about 350 runs better with the glove.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Pedro's a bit better than Grove per inning pitched, but Grove has 2,000+ more innings pitched when I adjust for minor league injustice. I will compare A-Rod to Cal Ripken, a far, far worse player than Wagner. Cal has about 110 more runs created, and is about 350 runs better with the glove.

Cal Ripken Jr. is a great player, he doesn't get enough love here. However, he is no A-Rod. So far Cal has had a better career, not surprising though, Alex still has ten or twelve good years left in him. Rodriguez has a career WARP3 of 142.7, Cal has a career WARP3 of 169.4. Now seeing that Cal has a 1000 game advantage on A-Rod the extra 27 wins isn't too surpising too me. Also I think Alex has had peak than Cal. Ripken had a really good run from 83-86, and had a good 89-91, however I really don't see many of his seasons as a match to A-Rod's years in Texas or his 1996, 1998, 2005, or 2007. I can see taking him for now, but in ten years time I think A-Rod will surpass him.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Only ones that really jump out to me are no Pedro and no A-Rod.

No Mantle is the one that jumps out too me. Also Koufax overrated? Tell that to his sub-1 postseason ERA. However, you are right he is no Grove.

[philkid3]

No Mantle is the one that jumps out too me. Also Koufax overrated? Tell that to his sub-1 postseason ERA. However, you are right he is no Grove.

I actually do believe Koulfax is slightly overrated, too. Doesn't mean I don't think he's absolutely f'ing awesome. I just spend alot of time in baseball circles I guess where people think there can't be an argument over who is the best pitcher, it's obviously Koulfax.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I actually do believe Koulfax is slightly overrated, too. Doesn't mean I don't think he's absolutely f'ing awesome. I just spend alot of time in baseball circles I guess where people think there can't be an argument over who is the best pitcher, it's obviously Koulfax.

If I had one game to win there has never existed a pitcher other than Koufax I'd rather hand the ball too, that has to count for something in my book.

Also to the mod that merged this post with AF's post I don't think that's what AF or the author of this post intended. AF wanted a thread of an all time team of players who just miss the hall. I don't want to go putting words into anybody's mouth, but I'm pretty sure the author of this thread would put Cobb, Wagner, and Williams into the Hall. :) Perhaps we should show this new fella the Members official opinions thread? It's been a while since we've brought that guy back up...I miss that thread.

[philkid3]

If I had one game to win there has never existed a pitcher other than Koufax I'd rather hand the ball too, that has to count for something in my book.

Well sure, it does, but that doesn't inherently mean he can't be overrated. I would take Pedro, but a statistic doesn't prove he's not overrated because it says nothing about where he's rated.

[leecemark]

--I suppose it depends what you are rating. If you are interested in peak or who was the best at their best then Koufax is going to rate very high. If you are looking at what pitchers accomplishe dover a full career then Koufax doesn't below anywhere near the top 10 - or even top 20 unless you are weighting peak years VERY heavy in your career calculations.
--Pedro has definatley surpassed Koufax in terms of career accomplishment. Which you prefer for peak is going to depend on how much slack you give Pedro for the innings gap. Alot of it is just the difference in the way pitchers are used now, but Koufax was a huge workhorse for several years and Pedro never has been.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

If you are talking about, say, a three-year peak, it would be hard to rate any modern-era pitcher higher than Maddux.

[philkid3]

If you are talking about, say, a three-year peak, it would be hard to rate any modern-era pitcher higher than Maddux.

1999-2000 :)

[ChrisLDuncan]

--I suppose it depends what you are rating. If you are interested in peak or who was the best at their best then Koufax is going to rate very high. If you are looking at what pitchers accomplishe dover a full career then Koufax doesn't below anywhere near the top 10 - or even top 20 unless you are weighting peak years VERY heavy in your career calculations.
--Pedro has definatley surpassed Koufax in terms of career accomplishment. Which you prefer for peak is going to depend on how much slack you give Pedro for the innings gap. Alot of it is just the difference in the way pitchers are used now, but Koufax was a huge workhorse for several years and Pedro never has been.

Also to do what Pedro did in that low of a runscoring context you would have to be almost perfect, zero margin of error. I was speaking not only to Koufax's peak but his big game presence.

[Blackout]

Here is my all-time team:

C = Johnny Bench (R)
1B = Lou Gehrig (L)
2B = Rogers Hornsby (R)
3B = Mike Schmidt (R)
SS = Honus Wagner (R)
OF = Barry Bonds (L)
OF = Babe Ruth (L)
OF = Ty Cobb (L)
DH = Ted Williams (L)
BENCH = Willie Mays (R)
BENCH = Jimmie Foxx (R)
BENCH = Stan Musial (L)
BENCH = Yogi Berra (L)
BENCH = Mickey Mantle (S)
BENCH = Jackie Robinson (R)
BENCH = Joe DiMaggio (L)
BENCH = Hank Aaron (R)

SP = Cy Young (R)
SP = Christy Mathewson (R)
SP = Walter Johnson (R)
SP = Roger Clemens (R)
RP = Nolan Ryan (R)
RP = Bob Gibson (R)
RP = Sandy Koufax (L)
RP = Warren Spahn (L)

This team would destroy all opponents. They would dominate. They truly are a "team for all-times".

can you destroy mine?

C = Josh Gibson
1B = Albert Pujols
2B = Nap Lajoie
3B = Alex Rodriguez
SS = Pop Lloyd
LF = Sam Thompson
RF = Oscar Charleston
CF = Tris Speaker
DH = Frank Thomas

BENCH = Hanley Ramirez
BENCH = David Ortiz (top pinch hitter in inter-league games)
BENCH = Ed Delahanty
BENCH = Eddie Collins
BENCH = Joe Jackson
BENCH = Joe Morgan
BENCH = Manny Ramirez
BENCH = Mike Piazza

SP = Pete Alexander
SP = Randy Johnson
SP = Lefty Grove
SP = Greg Maddux
RP = Mariano Rivera
RP = Pedro Martinez
RP = John Smoltz (my #1 starter in the playoffs, and backup closer if Mariano gets hurt)
RP = Smokey Joe Williams


I think my team is just as good considering you snatched up the best available OFers.

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

I'm going to do this using the less traditonal picks:
Manger- Connie Mack

C- Josh Gibson
1B- Johnny Mize
2B- Jackie Robinson
SS- Joe Cronin
3B- Wade Boggs
LF- Al Simmons
CF- Kirby Puckett
RF- Tony Gwynn
DH- Paul Molitor
Bench:
Ichiro Suzuki
Bill Mazeroski
George Kell
Minny Minoso
Bill Dickey
Cecil Travis

Starting Pitchers:
Juan Marichal
Gaylord Perry
Jim Bunning
Early Wynn

Relief Pitchers:
Sparky Lyle
Trevor Hoffman
Lee Smith
Elroy Face
Goose Gossage
Brad Lidge

[Blackout]

my all time single year team:

SS Hanley Ramirez 2007
2B Rogers Hornsby 1922
LF Babe Ruth 1921
1B Lou Gehrig 1927
CF Mantle 1956
3B Rodriguez 2007
DH Hafner 2006
C Berra 1956
RF Robinson 1966

bench: Piazza 1997, Jimmie Foxx 1932, Nap Lajoie 1901, Honus Wagner 1908, Mike Schmidt 1980, Ted Williams 1941, Ty Cobb 1911. Babe Ruth 1923 plays RF if Robinson were to get hurt and Williams goes in Ruth 21's place.


Pitching:

Walter Johnson 1913
Pedro Martinez 2000
Pete Alexander 1915
Doc Gooden 1985
Bob Gibson 1968

bullpen: Mariano 2005 closes, and Maddux 1995 can be relief (mostly for when Pedro pitches)

[Blackout]

I'm going to do this using the less traditonal picks:
Manger- Connie Mack

C- Josh Gibson
1B- Johnny Mize
2B- Jackie Robinson
SS- Joe Cronin
3B- Wade Boggs
LF- Al Simmons
CF- Kirby Puckett
RF- Tony Gwynn
DH- Paul Molitor
Bench:
Ichiro Suzuki
Bill Mazeroski
George Kell
Minny Minoso
Bill Dickey
Cecil Travis

Starting Pitchers:
Juan Marichal
Gaylord Perry
Jim Bunning
Early Wynn

Relief Pitchers:
Sparky Lyle
Trevor Hoffman
Lee Smith
Elroy Face
Goose Gossage
Brad Lidge

lidge and hoffman?? 2 huge chokers