Mainstream All-Time Teams

[Bill Burgess]

I'd like to do a little experiment here. If, one wanted to choose their all time teams, A & B, on Fever, and draw as little fire as possible, who should they choose?

Remember, if one were averse to criticism, and wanted to play it dead safe, be conservative, risk-free as possible, no daring choices, what would their A & B teams look like?

Here's who I think I'd select.

-------A----------------------B
1B---Gehrig-----------------Foxx
2B---Hornsby---------------Collins
SS--Wagner----------------J.Lloyd
3B--Schmidt----------------A-Rod
LF--Cobb------------------Mantle
CF--Mays-----------------Speaker
RF--Ruth------------------Aaron
1C--Bench-----------------J.Gibson
2C--Berra-----------------Cochrane
DH--T. Williams------------B.Bonds
P---W. Johnson------------G. Maddux
P---C. Mathewson---------B. Feller
P---G. Alexander-----------S. Koufax
P---L. Grove---------------C. Young
LR---W. Spahn-------------B. Gibson
LR---R. Clemens------------J. Marichal
SR---R. Johnson------------M. Brown
CL---P. Martinez-----------S. Paige

Man. J. McGraw------------C. Mack
Ass. J. McCarthy-----------C. Stengel

I'd like to see if there are many who feel that there are even more mainstream selections to be had. This is just an experiment.

*LR=long relief, SR=short relef, CL=closer

Bill Burgess

[BoSox Rule]

Can I just ask why the worst (not really a bad thing) of our generation's HOF locks is the only one starting?

[nightal]

Bill,

Other than Cobb being on the first team, I have no real problem with it.

[nightal]

:p :p :p :p :p :p


Hope I gotcha bud.

No, my only real problem is Pedro over Bob Gibson---Remember, we are trying to win and "Bob Gibson" would.................


Now, get Joe DiMaggio the hell off and put in Tris Speaker.

[Bill Burgess]

Al,


No, my only real problem is Pedro over Bob Gibson---Remember, we are trying to win and "Bob Gibson" would.................

Now, get Joe DiMaggio the hell off and put in Tris Speaker and remove Campanella and put Yogi on the "B" team.

You DID "Get me"! Do you think that Gibbie would be the more conservative "safe" choice today? Would you stick Pedro back on the B squad? Who would replace Bob on the B's?

If we replace Joe with Tris, and Roy with Yogi, does Roy go onto the B team?

I had thought that today's folks would not have heard of Tris, so I was trying to think outside my own thoughts.

Beantown Guy:
You must be meaning Roger Clemens? So what would your most conservative, safe choices be? Who goes home and who comes in? Give me your best shots.

Bill Burgess

[nightal]

I think it is becoming the norm to discover the greatness of Tris Speaker. Never before, have I heard such a change of heart over discovering what a great player he was by as many people. (young and old).
On the flip side, DiMaggio's reputation has, and is, suffering more each day as people realize, while he was a great player, he was by no means as "perfect" as oldtime sportswriters have led us to believe. And by this I mean both on and off the field. I believe Speaker was his superior both at the plate and in center field.
As far as Gibson over Martinez: Move Pedro to the "B" team and Bob to the "A".
Forget my "since removed" comments on the catchers, I didn't see Berra was already on the first team.

And as far as petty stuff from anyone: I'll quote DeNiro in The Deer Hunter---"This is This"
These are the best at each position, like it or not.

[eephus75]

Ozzie Smith might be thought of more than A-Rod at short.

[BoSox Rule]

Beantown Guy:
You must be meaning Roger Clemens? So what would your most conservative, safe choices be? Who goes home and who comes in? Give me your best shots.

I think I was wrong. I realize Maddux is a starter on the B team. I was going to say Pedro, Roger, and Randy are better than him but Maddux is the only starting, but he's only on the second team.

[nightal]

Ozzie Smith might be thought of more than A-Rod at short.


No, lad. From a Cardinal fan since 1966. I can name around 4 shortstops better than the Oz for this team.

1.Arky Vaughan
2.Ernie Banks
3.Robin Yount
4.Barry Larkin

Rest assured, A-Rod is the proper choice for the "B" team.


;)

[eephus75]

Nightal,
I had started to get cocky and was going to post "close to a dozen better choices off the top of my head" but didn't want to get Bill started...

Ozzie Smith
Alan Trammell
Dave Concepcion
Luis Aparicio
Cal Ripken, Jr
Ernie Banks
Barry Larkin
Pee Wee Reese
Arky Vaughn
Luke Appling
Roy McMillan

[Bill Burgess]

eephus75,

Good, good brother. I won't start. It's Christmas. Say what thou wilt. No starting on Christmas.

Bill the gentle

[RuthMayBond]

P---S. Koufaxif you want to completely discount the first part of his career, his home park, the high mound ...

[nightal]

if you want to completely discount the first part of his career, his home park, the high mound ...


Remember: "This is This" ;)

You cannot put a better team out there, sorry :waving

[Bill Burgess]

Good, good brother Jeff,

This time out, I'm trying to think like a generic fan. The most dominant pitchers of the last 60 yrs. were Feller, Koufax, Ryan, Clemens, Johnson. I'm trying to "see" out of different eyes.

So, if my mainstream selections don't seem so "mainstream" to you, you must make suggestions, and try to keep them risk-free and above criticism.

And so, your well-chosen selections are . . .?

Bill Burgess

[eephus75]

Bill,
Please. There are no generic fans. We all love the game in our own way, and embrace its players for different reasons.

And thank you for your Christmas kindness.

[ElHalo]

I'd guess that Mickey Cochrane would have to go ahead of Pudge Rodriguez... but maybe I'm overestimating people's regard for Mickey.

I will say, among most "generic" fans, Piazza is MUCH more highly thought of than Pudge Rodriguez.

[nightal]

I'd guess that Mickey Cochrane would have to go ahead of Pudge Rodriguez... but maybe I'm overestimating people's regard for Mickey.

I will say, among most "generic" fans, Piazza is MUCH more highly thought of than Pudge Rodriguez.


Wouldn't some people, have all three; Cochrane, Piazza and Pudge, ahead of Campanella?

[Bill Burgess]

OK, then. Campy's out, Piazza is in. Modern fans might choose recent guys over a 50 yr. old candidate. Thanks, guys.

Bill

[ElHalo]

Oh yeah... and the average fan has never heard of Eddie Collins. Make that spot Jackie Robinson.

[ElHalo]

A good measure of where the average fan's loyalties go can be garnered from the All Century Team, voted on by lots of average fans.

Starters:

C: Johnny Bench
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Jackie Robinson
SS: Cal Ripken, Jr.
3B: Mike Schmidt
OF: Ted Williams
OF: Willie Mays
OF: Babe Ruth

RHP: Nolan Ryan
LHP: Sandy Koufax

Bench:

C: Yogi Berra
1B: Mark McGwire
2B: Rogers Hornsby
SS: Ernie Banks
3B: Brooks Robinson
OF: Mickey Mantle
OF: Joe DiMaggio
OF: Hank Aaron
OF: Pete Rose
OF: Ken Griffey, Jr.
OF: Ty Cobb

P: Walter Johnson
P: Roger Clemens
P: Bob Gibson
P: Cy Young

With five players being added by an "expert" committee:

SS: Honus Wagner
OF: Stan Musial
P: Christy Mathewson
P: Warren Spahn
P: Lefty Grove

[Bill Burgess]

OK Jim,

You do bring up a valid point. The average fans would vote for such outrageously ignorant selections, that I am here and now, changing the entire thrust and point of this thread.

Let's assume that a poster here on Fever didn't want US to criticize his teams. Is that better? Let's try and see if that doesn't become complicated.

I should have NEVER uttered the phrase "generic fans". That was my mistake. And that opened up such an unacceptable Pandora's Box of nightmares.

Bill

[nightal]

Oh yeah... and the average fan has never heard of Eddie Collins. Make that spot Jackie Robinson.


C'mon now---be fair and honest :o

[nightal]

The All-Century fan vote was and always will be a joke. You know this. Wagner, Musial, Grove, Mathewson and Spahn had to be added later. What a bunch of.................

[Bill Burgess]

Brothers/Sisters:
Is this the best we can do? Are these the safest, most conservative teams, A & B, that a Fever poster can select, and avoid the most risk, here at Fever.

-------A----------------------B
1B---Gehrig-----------------Foxx
2B---Hornsby---------------Collins
SS--Wagner----------------A-Rod
3B--Schmidt----------------Brett
LF--Cobb------------------Mantle
CF--Mays-----------------DiMaggio
RF--Ruth------------------Aaron
1C--Bench-----------------Piazza
2C--Berra-----------------Ivan Rodriguez
DH--T. Williams------------S. Musial
P---W. Johnson------------G. Maddux
P---C. Mathewson---------B. Feller
P---G. Alexander-----------S. Koufax
P---L. Grove---------------C. Young
LR---W. Spahn-------------B. Gibson
LR---R. Clemens------------J. Marichal
SR---R. Johnson------------M. Brown
CL---P. Martinez-----------S. Paige

Man. J. McGraw------------J. McCarthy
Ass. Mack-----------------C. Stengel

I'd like to see if there are many who feel that there are even more mainstream selections to be had. This is just an experiment.

*LR=long relief, SR=short relef, CL=closer

Bill Burgess

[nightal]

Hard to beat this one, Bill
any arguments would be minor or "trivial"

al

[Bill Burgess]

Yeah. I am trying to take the temperture of Fever. These are a LONG WAY from mine, but the purpose of this exercise was to see who and what the general feelings of Fever are.

Don't get me wrong. I also realize that these are VERY strong, hard-to-beat teams.

Bill Burgess

[nightal]

Yeah. I am trying to take the temperture of Fever. These are a LONG WAY from mine, but the purpose of this exercise was to see who and what the general feelings of Fever are.

Don't get me wrong. I also realize that these are VERY strong, hard-to-beat teams.

Bill Burgess


"Different", maybe, but "LONG WAY", no.......... you did a really good job on these teams Wild Bill, it was your "inner being" speaking to your brain. ;)


al

[Bill Burgess]

There may be moments when it's virtually impossible to tell whether we're using the Force, or it's using us. Dunno. But it's kinda cool to not be in the minority for once.

Bill

[Bill Burgess]

I'd like t bring this thread back and get some more recent feedback. If a member of Fever wanted to incur the least possible amount of criticism from the house, would these selections be the safest, most conservative ones, from our consensus views?

Bill Burgess

[flash143817]

I think those are pretty good as "mainstream" teams. The "A" team actually mirrors my team completely. The only thing I would change is to put Joe Morgan as the 2B on the "B" team. I know many people who think he is the best 2B ever, and his only competition is Hornsby. Most "average" fans would choose Hornsby 1st and Morgan 2nd, with Robinson a distant 3rd.

Actually I would also move Koufax up to the "A" team, ahead of one of the active guys. And if your "M. Brown" is Mordecai Brown, I would replace him with Nolan Ryan. Most guys haven't heard of 3-Finger unless they are knowledgeable fans.

But other than those 3 changes, and maybe Ernie Banks in A-Rod's spot, I think those teams are pretty representative of what majority opinion would be. It's tough to decide on a pitching staff, but I don't have any complaints about the ones you came up with. The position players are pretty dead on.

[ElHalo]

I think those are pretty good as "mainstream" teams. The "A" team actually mirrors my team completely. The only thing I would change is to put Joe Morgan as the 2B on the "B" team. I know many people who think he is the best 2B ever, and his only competition is Hornsby. Most "average" fans would choose Hornsby 1st and Morgan 2nd, with Robinson a distant 3rd.

Gotta say I disagree with this.

Before I came to Baseballfever, I'd never heard of Joe Morgan.

(Which doesn't do wonders for my credibility, I know, but let me explain: I started watching baseball, as a kid, in the mid-80's. Most every single bit of baseball knowledge I gleaned was from reading every book about baseball I could get my hands on... most all of which were printed, at the latest, in 1969. I started out with a sketchy knowledge of the baseball in the interim... and once Frank Thomas rolled around, and I realized how utterly boring and mediocre that previous style of baseball was, I really didn't care too much to learn... I've gotten better with that, but I still have a hard time accepting a guy who could only hit .300 twice in one of the weakest and least interesting eras in baseball history as a top 50 player)

[moviegeekjan]

I think those are pretty good as "mainstream" teams. The "A" team actually mirrors my team completely. The only thing I would change is to put Joe Morgan as the 2B on the "B" team. I know many people who think he is the best 2B ever, and his only competition is Hornsby. Most "average" fans would choose Hornsby 1st and Morgan 2nd, with Robinson a distant 3rd. I would agree with that. Most people at Fever would debate whether Hornsby or Morgan would be on the "A" team... I recall that Bill James had Morgan listed as the best 2nd baseman in a recent Abstract.

Martinez for closer? I'd think that most would pick a bonafide closer who actually took on that role--Eckersley or Wilhelm likely to be the top two picks.

Fever fans might well select A-Rod for "B" shortstop, but if you polled the public... you'd probably end up with Ripken for "A" team shortstop.

[538280]

Most "average" fans would choose Hornsby 1st and Morgan 2nd, with Robinson a distant 3rd.



Most "average" fans don't even know who Hornsby is. Also, most average fans would scoff at Morgan's .271 career BA, and not put him #1. In a poll of "average" fans, I'd bet Jackie Robinson would come out #1, just because he's the most famous.

[Bill Burgess]

Gentlemen/Brothers,

I have changed the focus of the thread. I should never have uttered the words, "generic fans". Someone reminded me of the All-Century fiasco/debacle.

So, the new criteria is: If a member wished to avoid all criticism here on Fever, what selections would they need to pick. To be risk-free (ha ha, as if that exists on Fever!), and above ridicule.

Bill Burgess

[leecemark]

--If I were trying to avoid starting any arguments (not that that would be a desirable end), I'd go with the teams below. Asterisks indicate the players who are actually my own choices.
C: Bench*, Berra*
1B: Gehrig*, Foxx*
2B: Hornsby, Collins* (Morgan)
3B: Schmidt*, Brett*
SS: Wagner*, Rodriguez*
LF: Williams*, Bonds (Musial)
CF: Cobb, Mays (I reverse them)
RF: Ruth*, Aaron*
SP(A): Johnson*, Grove*, Clemens*, Mathewson, Young* (Maddux)
SP(B): Alexander*, Spahn*, Seaver*, Paige*
--For the most part, I agree with the BBF consensus at the very top of the charts. Its when we get past the obvious all time choices that opinions really begin to diverge.

[Bill Burgess]

Thanks for participating Mark.

After sparring with you all year, I just thought I'd say something nice to you. When you came aboard, I saw you as Mr. Mainstream, Mr. Conservative. Too safe for my tastes.

But then you suddenly felt comfortable enough to stake out your own turf. And while I felt disappointed that you haven't evolved more to my liking, I shouldn't expect anyone to agree with me.

You have become a true Minority Dissent member, but in your own way. Seems you don't require the safety of the herd for comfort. And while your mainstream credentials have slipped some, I still can respect your minority players.

Morgan over Hornsby/Collins
Sisler not a great player
Reggie Jackson a great player
Mays #1 ever
Wagner #8 ever
Cobb #9 ever
Robinson, Kaline, Ott over Clemente
Mathewson #9 ever

These were just a few of your more courageous, daring, gutsy positions. So keep up the good work.

Bill

[Bill Burgess]

Wouldn't mind some recent feedback.

Bill Burgess

[Wade8813]

Need some rules clarification first.

Is this based on single season stats?

How lenient are we with positions? Mickey Mantle spent most of the time in Center Field, yet someone stuck him in Left. Are all OF interchangeable?

Do we have a DH?

Do we care about whether or not the player took steroids?

Do we worry about the fact that a team with Ty Cobb, Albert Belle, Ted Williams, etc would kill each other instead of playing?

Do we account for the era played in, the ballpark, their team, etc, or is it by the numbers?

[Bill Burgess]

Need some rules clarification first.

Is this based on single season stats?

How lenient are we with positions? Mickey Mantle spent most of the time in Center Field, yet someone stuck him in Left. Are all OF interchangeable? Yes.

Do we have a DH? Yes.

Do we care about whether or not the player took steroids? No. But Fever members might blast you. The idea is safe, risk-free, drawing least Fever fire.

Do we worry about the fact that a team with Ty Cobb, Albert Belle, Ted Williams, etc would kill each other instead of playing? NO.

Do we account for the era played in, the ballpark, their team, etc, or is it by the numbers? Do what you must. Your gut will inform you. I hope.

[Blackout]

:p :p :p :p :p :p


Hope I gotcha bud.

No, my only real problem is Pedro over Bob Gibson---Remember, we are trying to win and "Bob Gibson" would.................


Now, get Joe DiMaggio the hell off and put in Tris Speaker.

so winning is why you'd take Gibson over Pedro

and you want to remove 9 time world series winner joe dimaggio?

[Wade8813]

1B Lou Gehrig / Jimmie Foxx
2B Rogers Hornsby / Nap Lajoie
SS A-Rod / Arky Vaughan
3B George Brett / Freddy Lindstrom
C Mike Piazza / Bill Dickey
OF Babe Ruth / Babe Herman
OF Mickey Mantle / Chuck Klein
OF Ty Cobb / Lefty O’Doul
DH Ted Williams / Hack Wilson

SP Walter Johnson / Ed Walsh
SP Christy Mathewson / Greg Maddux
SP Dutch Leonard / Chief Bender
SP Bob Gibson / Jack Pfiester
SP 3 Finger Brown / Addie Joss
RP Grover Alexander / Cy Young
RP Dennis Eckersly / John Smoltz
RP Eric Gagne / Billie Wagner
RP Rollie Fingers / Hoyt Wilhelm
RP Mariano Rivera / Bruce Sutter

[Bill Burgess]

Wade? What's this?

Bill Burgess