Philadelphia-An American League town?

[Aa3rt]

I've recently been re-reading Calvin-Baseball's Last Dinosaur by John Kerr, about Calvin Griffith, former owner of the Washington Senators. In the chapter titled "Calvin Joins The Senators", there is a discussion of the shifting of American League franchises, first the Browns to Baltimore, then the subject of the Philadelphia Athletics. From the book:

As acting Senators representative at league meetings, Calvin was on the losing end of another franchise shift dispute in 1955. The Philadelphia Athletics, still officially owned by Connie Mack, were in the midst of an economic and family crisis greater than the Griffith's as they contemplated a sale to several Kansas City bidders, including one named Charles O. Finley.

"Connie Mack at that time was senile", says Calvin, matter-of-factly. "One son wanted to move and one wanted to stay. The mother stepped in and she ruled the roost. She talked to Connie and had a speech prepared by her. Everybody, including Clark Griffith respected Connie so much that they finally let them out of Philadelphia, which turned out to be one of the worst things in baseball, because Philadelphia was an American League town. The A.L. regretted that they ever let them leave town."

As one who was a little too young to have remembered this first hand (born in 1953) what are your thoughts and comments? Obviously the A's still have a good following in Philadelphia, proven by the Philadelphia A's website, historical society and recent breakfast. Was Philadelphia REALLY an American League town? Were there rumors of the Phillies moving in the 1950's when baseball started eyeing the west?

[donzblock]

Unfortunately, there were never rumors of the Phillies moving anywhere. (Or have I forgotten them?) If any franchise deserved to be moved and should have been moved, it was the Phillies. The Athletics should have stayed. The Phillies should have been relocated to Los Angeles. The worst franchise in the history of professional sports was tailor made for the deadest and least knowledgeable fans in the history of major league baseball. The Phillies would have continued to stink up the league, the LA fans would have continued to follow them in the same way that vampires follow blood, the Philadelphia fans would have been relieved of the horror of being in the vicinity of the Phillies, and the Athletics would have eventually thrived in Philly. Ed Wade belongs in LA. Billy Beane would have been fully appreciated in Philly. Things rarely work out.

[Bucketfoot Al]

Philadelphia was an American League town from 1901 to 1950. The Athletics were an immediate success when the new league started. When the A's were good, the Phillies were bad. When the A's were bad, the Phillies were still bad. Both teams started getting better in the late 1940's.

1950 was a disaster for the Athletics. While the older A's players crashed, the young Phillies players (Richie Ashburn, Robin Roberts, etc.) took the Phillies to the World Series. The Phillies remained good for the next few years and the A's never recovered. By 1954, rumors of the A's leaving town and a last place finish deadened Philadelphia fan's interest. Not enough people came to the ballpark in 1954 to save the team. The fans who did come were very surley and many of the A's players were more than happy to find a new home in Kansas City. By 1959 the Phillies returned to being the doormat team they always had been.

While there was a last minute interest by Philadelphia businessmen to save the A's, the New York Yankees backed Arnold Johnson's purchase bid (who was in their back pocket) and the team moved to Kansas City. The Kansas City Athletics were essentailly a Yankee's farm team until Johnson died in 1960 and Charlie Finley bought the club and eventually built it into the 1972 to 1974 World Champions. Unfortunately, this was in Oakland, not Philadelphia.

[westsidegrounds]

The Athletics were owned by the Mack family, who were in financial trouble; running the A's was their business, they had no other source of income. The Phils, on the other hand, were owned by Bob Carpenter, a seriously wealthy guy for whom owning a Major League ballclub was really just a hobby.

Never really any question which team was going to move.

[donzblock]

The Athletics were owned by the Mack family, who were in financial trouble; running the A's was their business, they had no other source of income. The Phils, on the other hand, were owned by Bob Carpenter, a seriously wealthy guy for whom owning a Major League ballclub was really just a hobby.

Never really any question which team was going to move.
Sad but true.

[Steve Jeltz]

1950 was a disaster for Philadelphia baseball in retrospect. If the Phillies don't win the pennant, thus winning most of the baseball hearts in Philly, I believe there is a distinct possibility that the Phillies would have moved and the A's would have stayed.
Despite not winning anything since 1931, the A's were considered the main baseball team in Philly,while the Phils were considered the weak sister until 1950. It was the A's that had the tradition with Foxx, Grove, Cochrane and Mack, while the Phillies had a tradition of losing and selling of their best players, like Eppa Rixey, Grover Alexander, Bucky Walters and Chuck Klein for cash by owners like William Baker and Gerry Nugent. Then, luck struck the Phillies through one of their owners getting banned for gambling, William Cox, thus allowing Bob Carpenter to buy the team in 1943. Then 7 years later, the Whiz Kids came along and the rest is history.
If Cox did not get banned,the losing would have continued into the 1950's as Cox did not demonstrate that he had the slightest clue on how to run a baseball team. No doubt he would have moved the Phils, perhaps to Milwaukee, in the early 1950's. With the Phils gone, local businessmen or maybe Carpenter himself would have stepped up to buy the A's, thus keeping the team in Philadelphia.
And today, Philadelphia fans would be screaming about how the A's are chokers for losing three consecutive game 5's, trading Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder, discussing why Billy Beane is overrated as a GM and how he must must go and being depressed about not being able to overcome their divisional foes the Red Sox and Yankees. But at least those the fans could look back on the days of Reggie, Catfish, Rudi, Fingers, Blue, etc., and the 1970's dynasty, BillyBall, the 1989 World Series win, Tony LaRussa, and probably the most villified player in Philadelphia sports history, Rickey Henderson. Nice dream :) Can we trade the Phillies to Oakland and bring the A's back home? :(

[weatherfreak89]

I always thought that the Phillies were the one that stayed, but it was the A's with the storied history.

Bah......... Life ain't fair.

[donzblock]

Can we trade the Phillies for the A's? Is there anything in this universe you could trade the Phillies for? Is there on the face of this earth anybody stupid enough to acquire an organization that included an Ed Wade or revealed his influence? You could not even place the Phillies in a rocket and shoot the thing into space: if the rocket were to explode, you would have an atmosphere so polluted it would no longer support life. You might be able to sink the Phillies into the bowels of the earth, but then you would run the risk of the remains leaching into the water supply. For giving up the A's, Philadelphia seems to have been sentenced to keeping the Phillies.

[johncap]

So, if I read this right, the root cause of the crap organization we call the Phillies is the Whiz Kids, and Richie Ashburn! Long live Cornelius McGillicuddy!

[ACrank]

i often wondered, since the moved to Baltimore and KC weren't too far apart, why the A's just didn't move to Baltimore and the Browns move to KC. (The Baltimore A's and the KC Blues?)

[johncap]

i often wondered, since the moved to Baltimore and KC weren't too far apart, why the A's just didn't move to Baltimore and the Browns move to KC. (The Baltimore A's and the KC Blues?)
Well, the A's didn't really move, per se, they were sold.

[jeannie]

Well, the A's didn't really move, per se, they were sold.

Right, and I also think that the Browns were sold to someone before leaving St. Louis.

[Aa3rt]

Right, and I also think that the Browns were sold to someone before leaving St. Louis.

The St. Louis Browns played their last game on Sept. 27, 1953. Two days later (9/29/53) the Browns were sold to a Baltimore syndicate headed by Baltimore mayor Tom D'Alesandro for $ 2.475 million dollars. The American League approved the sale and the move-without Bill Veeck.

For more information, check out Bill Mc Curdy's wonderful "This Date In Browns History" thread in the St. Louis Browns forum.

Scroll down to Sept. 27th in each of the links provided.

St. Louis Browns history (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=19216&page=3)

St. Louis Browns history#2 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=19216&page=19)

[Calif_Eagle]

1950 was a disaster for Philadelphia baseball in retrospect. If the Phillies don't win the pennant, thus winning most of the baseball hearts in Philly, I believe there is a distinct possibility that the Phillies would have moved and the A's would have stayed.
Despite not winning anything since 1931, the A's were considered the main baseball team in Philly,while the Phils were considered the weak sister until 1950. It was the A's that had the tradition with Foxx, Grove, Cochrane and Mack, while the Phillies had a tradition of losing and selling of their best players, like Eppa Rixey, Grover Alexander, Bucky Walters and Chuck Klein for cash by owners like William Baker and Gerry Nugent. Then, luck struck the Phillies through one of their owners getting banned for gambling, William Cox, thus allowing Bob Carpenter to buy the team in 1943. Then 7 years later, the Whiz Kids came along and the rest is history.
If Cox did not get banned,the losing would have continued into the 1950's as Cox did not demonstrate that he had the slightest clue on how to run a baseball team. No doubt he would have moved the Phils, perhaps to Milwaukee, in the early 1950's. With the Phils gone, local businessmen or maybe Carpenter himself would have stepped up to buy the A's, thus keeping the team in Philadelphia.
And today, Philadelphia fans would be screaming about how the A's are chokers for losing three consecutive game 5's, trading Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder, discussing why Billy Beane is overrated as a GM and how he must must go and being depressed about not being able to overcome their divisional foes the Red Sox and Yankees. But at least those the fans could look back on the days of Reggie, Catfish, Rudi, Fingers, Blue, etc., and the 1970's dynasty, BillyBall, the 1989 World Series win, Tony LaRussa, and probably the most villified player in Philadelphia sports history, Rickey Henderson. Nice dream :) Can we trade the Phillies to Oakland and bring the A's back home? :(

The problem here is that if Arnold Johnson does NOT buy the A's... or if Carpenter made a huge offer to MACK rather than Cox in 1943, & it was accepted; is that the whole timeline changes. If Finley doesnt buy the team and put his managers, scouts, players in place... the whole 1971-75 run never happens... Perhaps Carpenter would have made all the same moves he made with the Phillies, but thats not likely as his influences would have been the men he first met in the A's front office upon taking over. Maybe the "Save The A's" committee (If THEY get the team in 1954-5) hires a totally different batch of scouts and front office people and managers (team building staff)... we'll never really know how it would have gone, but to count on having the Philadelphia A's having done all that has been accomplished on the field by the Oakland A's isnt realistic. And if Finley had bought the club from the Macks, with no Arnold Johnson as a bridge, they sure wouldnt have stayed in a 2 team town. Finley would have either decided to run the Phillies off (something I can see him trying, Carpenter or no. It seems to me he had that kind of ego) or else moving away. Finley always seemed to like Dallas, perhaps thats where they would have gone.

[Rome Colonel]

The St. Louis Browns played their last game on Sept. 27, 1953. Two days later (9/29/53) the Browns were sold to a Baltimore syndicate headed by Baltimore mayor Tom D'Alesandro for $ 2.475 million dollars. The American League approved the sale and the move-without Bill Veeck.[/URL]


Political footnote: Tom D'Alesandro was the father of House speaker Nancy Pelosi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_D'Alesandro,_Jr.

[PlayJay]

All the what-ifs of the time fall away: Topping and Webb were going to ensure that the Athletics were A) sold to Arnold Johnson (who owned Yankee Stadium, by the way), and B) moved to Kansas City. No matter what.

Bad financial decisions by the Mack family led them to this precipice.

I think that if the Carpenters had stepped up and bought the Athletics from the Mack family at any given time in the late '40s or early '50s, there would've been little difference: the grumbling, bumbling style of the Macks would've been replaced by the amiable bumbling of Bob Carpenter. There wouldn't have been any pennants either...

And, yes, the Phillies might've moved...and someone else might've been subjected to Jim Fregosi bringing in Kim Batiste for defensive purposes :hp

[yanks0714]

All the what-ifs of the time fall away: Topping and Webb were going to ensure that the Athletics were A) sold to Arnold Johnson (who owned Yankee Stadium, by the way), and B) moved to Kansas City. No matter what.

Bad financial decisions by the Mack family led them to this precipice.

I think that if the Carpenters had stepped up and bought the Athletics from the Mack family at any given time in the late '40s or early '50s, there would've been little difference: the grumbling, bumbling style of the Macks would've been replaced by the amiable bumbling of Bob Carpenter. There wouldn't have been any pennants either...

And, yes, the Phillies might've moved...and someone else might've been subjected to Jim Fregosi bringing in Kim Batiste for defensive purposes :hp

Yes, the Yankee owners were instrumental in being sold to Arnold L. Johnson. Afterall, Kansas City had been a Yankee AAA farm team. They had the connections. The Yankees even took out the lease for Municipal Stadium through 3rd party transactions because Johnson couldn't afford it.

The problem the Macks' had was that they wanted an investor who would provide in influx of money but allow them to continue to run the A's. The A's were Connie's legacy. They were very cautious about who they brought in because they didn't want to get squeezed out. Finally, the AL exasperated with the Mack's constant delays, took matters into their own hands rather secretively, selling out the A's from under the Mack family.

The Carpenter's DuPont money buying into the Phillies was the death knoll for the A's in Philly. With that money behind them the Phillies were able to build toward what became the Whiz Kids. The Mack's couldn't even dream to be able to compete with the Carpenter's. It was simply a matter of time until they left Philly.

[riredsox]

That's the case with St. Louis-if so-and-so hadn't bought the team, they would have moved and the city would be an AL town. With StL, it was Budwieser, with Philadelphia, it was Bob Carpenter. In both cases, the teams purchased were the NL teams, whose new owners poured money into them-money that Bill Veeck and Connie Mack didn't have. As a resualt, the AL teams moved, and the NL dominated the cities.

[Bottom Of The Fifth]

Although, yes, Philadelphia was an American League town, let's not forget that the A's drew about 900 to their final game. The rot had set in. And, as others have noted, the team was going to KC no matter what--the Yankees wanted to dump that stadium.

[EdTarbusz]

The problem the Macks' had was that they wanted an investor who would provide in influx of money but allow them to continue to run the A's. The A's were Connie's legacy. They were very cautious about who they brought in because they didn't want to get squeezed out. Finally, the AL exasperated with the Mack's constant delays, took matters into their own hands rather secretively, selling out the A's from under the Mack family.

.

Another big problem that the Macks' had was in-fighting within the family. Connie Mack's sons with his first wife, Roy and Earle, couldn't get along or do business with Connie Mack's second wife and their half-brother Connie Mack Jr. If these two factions hadn't been trying to buy each other out, they may have have been able to hold onto the Athletics.

[johncap]

Although, yes, Philadelphia was an American League town, let's not forget that the A's drew about 900 to their final game. The rot had set in. And, as others have noted, the team was going to KC no matter what--the Yankees wanted to dump that stadium.

But this was in a time when regualr "crowds" of 2,500 were commonplace at virtually all ballparks. "Youngsters" accustomed to today's draws would be shocked to see what even the Yankees drew at certain times of their history.

[PlayJay]

Unfortunately, there were never rumors of the Phillies moving anywhere. (Or have I forgotten them?) If any franchise deserved to be moved and should have been moved, it was the Phillies. The Athletics should have stayed. The Phillies should have been relocated to Los Angeles. The worst franchise in the history of professional sports was tailor made for the deadest and least knowledgeable fans in the history of major league baseball. The Phillies would have continued to stink up the league, the LA fans would have continued to follow them in the same way that vampires follow blood, the Philadelphia fans would have been relieved of the horror of being in the vicinity of the Phillies, and the Athletics would have eventually thrived in Philly. Ed Wade belongs in LA. Billy Beane would have been fully appreciated in Philly. Things rarely work out.

You don't...uh...train pitbulls to fight, do you?

[six4three]

The St. Louis Browns played their last game on Sept. 27, 1953. Two days later (9/29/53) the Browns were sold to a Baltimore syndicate headed by Baltimore mayor Tom D'Alesandro for $ 2.475 million dollars. The American League approved the sale and the move-without Bill Veeck.


The AL was trying to rid themselves of Veeck - he had just tried to move the Browns himself (back to Milwaukee), but they shot him down.

It was clear that the Browns were leaving St. Louis, but equally clear that the League wouldn't let Veeck take them anywhere.

[Bottom Of The Fifth]

But this was in a time when regualr "crowds" of 2,500 were commonplace at virtually all ballparks. "Youngsters" accustomed to today's draws would be shocked to see what even the Yankees drew at certain times of their history.

Actually, the MLB average for that period was 10,000-15,000 per game (http://pages.istar.ca/~mbein/Baseball/MLATT.JPG), so 900 is still pretty bad.

[mandrake]

The timing may have been a little off, but I agree that the St Louis Browns should have moved to Kansas City, and the A's (if they had to move) should have gone to Baltimore. This way the fans of both teams could have kept some ties to the team. They would be able to sometimes travel to see their teams, always listen to the team on the radio, and probably watch them on TV. I know that the Royals and Cardinals are all over Missouri and surrounding states (KS,AR,OK,NE, etc). I recall going to a Royals vs Orioles game back in 1983 where there was a huge contingent of the "St Louis Browns" fan club sitting in the LF bleachers. Even when they won the '85 series, Royals Stadium was loaded with Cardinal fans. At least the Browns could have had some of their original fans.

[PlayJay]

Here's some logic:

By 1953, given the atrocious lack of success in the front office, and on the field, as well as the legendary success of the club that shared the ballpark with them, mostly in the years when the club was run by a legendary general manager who first left the Browns under a cloud, I can't imagine that same would've had any kind of devoted fan base that would've cared. They certainly couldn't be blamed for not caring.

I can't believe the Phillies survived...

[Brownieand45sfan]

But that's exactly what they *don't* want: somebody eating in to Gussie Busch's and Bob Carpenter's territory. Greedy MLB *wants* the fan to feel disenfranchised. You are supposed to support the team you're told, shut up and buy more souvenirs. Remember the fan comes last. Once they know they have you hooked, which MLB pretty much knew by 1950.

(whew. I feel like I'm catching donzblock flu! :) )

The timing may have been a little off, but I agree that the St Louis Browns should have moved to Kansas City, and the A's (if they had to move) should have gone to Baltimore. This way the fans of both teams could have kept some ties to the team. They would be able to sometimes travel to see their teams, always listen to the team on the radio, and probably watch them on TV. I know that the Royals and Cardinals are all over Missouri and surrounding states (KS,AR,OK,NE, etc). I recall going to a Royals vs Orioles game back in 1983 where there was a huge contingent of the "St Louis Browns" fan club sitting in the LF bleachers. Even when they won the '85 series, Royals Stadium was loaded with Cardinal fans. At least the Browns could have had some of their original fans.

[Steve Jeltz]

Maybe Bucky Harris unwittingly sealed the A's fate. In 1943, Willam Cox bought the Phils and hired Harris as manager. Harris had the Phils, losers of 100 plus games the previous 5 seasons, just 8 games sunder .500 in August when the meddling Cox canned him. A peeved Harris mentioned to a sportswriter after he was fired that Cox bet on Phils games. Commisioner Landis promptly barred Cox from baseball forever, paving the way for Carpenter to buy the Phillies.

Now, what if, Harris never opened his mouth about Cox's betting? It's conceivable that Cox would have continued to be the owner for a couple of more years before his wagering habits came to light. By then, maybe Carpenter would not have been interested in buying the Phils and the Phils, likely floundering under Cox, would have had to relocate. With the Phils gone, the AL would have found someone who would have kept the A's in Philly.