On August 19, 1957.......

[DODGER DEB]

On August 19, 1957, 47 years ago today, HORACE STONEHAM and his Board of Directors, voted 9-1 to MOVE the NY GIANTS!

In less than two months, on October 8, 1957, OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS would follow that lead.

Sadly, it was the beginning of the end of NL Baseball, as WE knew it, in NYC! :mad::mad::mad:

c.

[Greenpeach]

On August 19, 1957, 47 years ago today, HORACE STONEHAM and his Board of Directors, voted 9-1 to MOVE the NY GIANTS!

In less than two months, on October 8, 1957, OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS would follow that lead.

Sadly, it was the beginning of the end of NL Baseball, as WE knew it, in NYC! :mad::mad::mad:

c.

In the mid-1950's when it became apparent that Stoneham didn't have the money to finance a privately owned stadium, Hall-of-Famer Bill Terry entered into clandestine negotiations with Horace to purchase the financially troubled franchise. Terry, a self made millionaire , was certain that he would be able to put a group of investors together that could make an offer that Stoneham couldn't refuse. If Terry had pulled off the deal, his plan was to keep the Giants in New York & have them play in Yankee Stadium until the Flushing Meadows project was completed. Unfortunately, Terry was a little too public about the negotiations & an embarrassed Stoneham quickly broke them off. And the rest as they say is history.

[GiantsFan]

It was a sad day in baseball history indeed. If everything turned out right and the City of New York was willing to save the team, I think the Giants and Dodgers would have stayed. New York City would have had three Major League teams that would set it aside and make them stand alone. The greediness of Stoneham took it's way. And from what I read, O' Malley enticed Stoneham to move to the west coast keeping the rivalry alive. I think it's really sad for NY Giants fans. We haven't won a championship since we moved. The Dodgers faired very well. I guess the Giants are jinxed. Imagine the Giants moving back to New York. Hey look what happened to the Oakland Raiders. They returned back home after staying like 13 years in Los Angeles. That's a dream anyway. The sister team Mets are their team now with a piece of Dodger and Giant engraved in them forever. Sad!

[donzblock]

The master plan is to get the Giants back to New York. Forget the Dodgers. An earthquake or plate tectonics will eventually reduce them to rubble. Then we'll move the Mets to Brooklyn, and all will be almost well again.

[GiantsFan]

If that is going to happen, I'm all for it! New York still embrasses the Giants. Many people like myself are just as mad when they moved that dreadful day in 1957. And yes forget the Dodgers! (no offense DODGER DEB!) It's all for fun! :)

[Greenpeach]

It was a sad day in baseball history indeed. If everything turned out right and the City of New York was willing to save the team, I think the Giants and Dodgers would have stayed. New York City would have had three Major League teams that would set it aside and make them stand alone. The greediness of Stoneham took it's way. And from what I read, O' Malley enticed Stoneham to move to the west coast keeping the rivalry alive. I think it's really sad for NY Giants fans. We haven't won a championship since we moved. The Dodgers faired very well. I guess the Giants are jinxed. Imagine the Giants moving back to New York. Hey look what happened to the Oakland Raiders. They returned back home after staying like 13 years in Los Angeles. That's a dream anyway. The sister team Mets are their team now with a piece of Dodger and Giant engraved in them forever. Sad!

I thought that there was a movement to move the Giants back east in the late 1970's when they were experiencing ownership troubles. I remember that the buzz was that they wanted to build a baseball only stadium at the Meadowlands. I'm sure George would've fought that tooth & nail.

"You Can't Go Home Again" --Thomas Wolfe

[DODGER DEB]

If that is going to happen, I'm all for it! New York still embrasses the Giants. Many people like myself are just as mad when they moved that dreadful day in 1957. And yes forget the Dodgers! (no offense DODGER DEB!) It's all for fun! :)

None taken, GiantsFan!

NYC is still the only ML city that did, and could still, support three ML teams. When you look at the state of most teams in cities that fought tooth and nail to get them you have wonder, out loud, WHY? Most of these cities and their fans do NOT have what it has always taken to support a ML team, through thick and thin. Enough time has passed, along with many "experiments" for ML Baseball to now get REAL and re-establish teams in places that truly LOVE BASEBALL!

As I have said on OUR Forum, I still think that the best move Fred Wilpon could make is move the METS to BROOKLYN. THAT would be a stroke of genius considering what he would gain instantly with OUR "B" on his hat....and all that would come with it!

If Wilpon didn't make that happen, Frank McCourt could then have the best of both worlds. He got a real deal buying the Dodgers from that Murdoch group, who couldn't tell baseball from soccer. Not only did he wind up with the Franchise, but he got the Chavez Ravine, the Vero Beach Dodgertown facility......AND he got that huge parcel of land next to the Chavez Ravine, where he wants to build a football stadium. In a few years, after he establishes his "power base" among the owners, the genius "move" would be packing up the Dodgers and coming back to BROOKLYN, still leaving him with all that LA land. WE also discussed on OUR Forum that a new ballpark could be built in Coney Island (Brooklyn), facing the Atlantic Ocean, with plans for plenty of parking space and public transportation feeding into the area.

As for the GIANTS, I don't know enough about their owners and situation. Their ballpark is new, and depending on the deal they signed to get it, could keep them in SF for years to come. After Bonds retires.....I wonder just how much interest in Baseball will endure in the Bay area. In 1957, the Big "O" made sure HE kept the "gold mine" (LA) for himself and gave the ??? (SF) to Stoneham. Here again, SF fans seem to NEED a winner to support the Giants....what happens when Barry is no longer the attraction?

IMO, NYC and ML Baseball is ready for some sensible moves. Of couse, the best move they could make is getting rid of "Bud-Lite", who has approved some of the worst moves Baseball has ever seen.

IT'S TIME!!!!

c.

[tonypug]

It was a sad day in baseball history indeed. If everything turned out right and the City of New York was willing to save the team, I think the Giants and Dodgers would have stayed. New York City would have had three Major League teams that would set it aside and make them stand alone. The greediness of Stoneham took it's way. And from what I read, O' Malley enticed Stoneham to move to the west coast keeping the rivalry alive. I think it's really sad for NY Giants fans. We haven't won a championship since we moved. The Dodgers faired very well. I guess the Giants are jinxed. Imagine the Giants moving back to New York. Hey look what happened to the Oakland Raiders. They returned back home after staying like 13 years in Los Angeles. That's a dream anyway. The sister team Mets are their team now with a piece of Dodger and Giant engraved in them forever. Sad!
Giantsfan, Stoneham wasn't greedy. He had a valid reason for moving, his team was losing money. The other rotund gentleman( I use the term loosely) from Brooklyn had no valid reason to move. His team was making money every year.

[Greenpeach]

Giantsfan, Stoneham wasn't greedy. He had a valid reason for moving, his team was losing money. The other rotund gentleman( I use the term loosely) from Brooklyn had no valid reason to move. His team was making money every year.

I agree with you Tony. Stoneham was losing money because he couldn't get white fans up to Harlem for night games anymore. Towards the end, people in the box seats were being robbed during games. No one is going to attend a game, especially a night game, when the club can't even guarantee your safety INSIDE the ballpark. In addition, all of the Giants home games were on free TV. I can definitely understand why their attendance plummeted when the team was struggling. The only counter argument to Stoneham's decision is that it has been well documented that the Yankees were willing to lease Yankee Stadium to the Giants for an indefinite period of time. Stoneham's critics argue that he could've done this until the Flushing Meadow Project was completed in Queens. However, to Stoneham it must've seemed easier just to pull up stakes & move to some virgin territory where a grateful city would build him a publicly financed stadium.

[westsidegrounds]

Towards the end, people in the box seats were being robbed during games.

With all due respect, I'd like to see some documentation on that. References?

[tonypug]

After O'Malley turned down the Flushing Meadow(Shea Stadium) site, it was offered to Stoneham. He turned it down, because Queens was Dodger territory, and he was concearned that he wouldn't have a large enough of a fan base. As far as the criminal activity , I never saw any of it. My Dad took my brother and me to many games at the Polo Grounds and we never felt threatened. Yankee Stadium has never been in paradise, I have never heard any negative comments about the Stadium. The same reason was given for the Dodgers moving. Dodger Stadium in LA is not an area where you want to spend much time after a game, but that was a reason given for leaving Ebbets Field.

[Greenpeach]

With all due respect, I'd like to see some documentation on that. References?

Sure, here you go Westside.

"There were some vague attempts to induce the Giants to stay. The Polo Grounds was creaking after all those busy years, and the neighborhood outside, to put it kindly, was deteriorating. "There were times." Lee Allen once remarked, "when the Giants couldn't guarantee their box-seat customers safety from armed robberies during night games." Nor was attendance particularly helped when a Giant fan was killed during a game by a sniper's bullet fired from a nearby Harlem rooftop."

"The Giants of The Polo Grounds" by Noel Hynd pg. 380

[Greenpeach]

After O'Malley turned down the Flushing Meadow(Shea Stadium) site, it was offered to Stoneham. He turned it down, because Queens was Dodger territory, and he was concearned that he wouldn't have a large enough of a fan base. As far as the criminal activity , I never saw any of it. My Dad took my brother and me to many games at the Polo Grounds and we never felt threatened. Yankee Stadium has never been in paradise, I have never heard any negative comments about the Stadium. The same reason was given for the Dodgers moving. Dodger Stadium in LA is not an area where you want to spend much time after a game, but that was a reason given for leaving Ebbets Field.

My Dad & I went to a game at Yankee Stadium in September of 1973, and we personally witnessed a gang of Puerto Rican youths strip a Dodge in broad daylight that was parked right across the street from the stadium. Dozens of people witnessed this event, but no one said or did anything about it. It was pretty sad. I've seen games at Tiger Stadium & the old Comiskey Park, but I 've always thought that the old Yankee Stadium in the late 60's & early 70's was in the most dangerous neighborhood. I haven't been back to the stadium in 20 years so I don't know if the neighborhood has improved at all.

[westsidegrounds]

Sure, here you go Westside.

"There were times." Lee Allen once remarked, "when the Giants couldn't guarantee their box-seat customers safety from armed robberies during night games."

I'm afraid - with all due respect to the very colorful Lee Allen, a great storyteller - that that's not good enough.

I mean, think about it. What are we supposed to be picturing, some guy with a stocking over his head moving from box to box, saying "OK, just fill up da bag wit yer valuables & nobody gets hoit"?

How about the vendors - did they scramble to get ahead of the armed robbers, so they could sell their hotdogs while the patrons still had money?

Hey, I'll bet the armed robbers sure kept people from moving down to the "good seats" late in the game!

........................

I was thinking of something more factual, like maybe one of the New York papers might have, oh, run a story about armed robberies taking place inside the Polo Grounds during ballgames. That's really not something they'd have saved for a slow news day ...

[Greenpeach]

I'm afraid - with all due respect to the very colorful Lee Allen, a great storyteller - that that's not good enough.

I mean, think about it. What are we supposed to be picturing, some guy with a stocking over his head moving from box to box, saying "OK, just fill up da bag wit yer valuables & nobody gets hoit"?

How about the vendors - did they scramble to get ahead of the armed robbers, so they could sell their hotdogs while the patrons still had money?

Hey, I'll bet the armed robbers sure kept people from moving down to the "good seats" late in the game!

........................

I was thinking of something more factual, like maybe one of the New York papers might have, oh, run a story about armed robberies taking place inside the Polo Grounds during ballgames. That's really not something they'd have saved for a slow news day ...

I see my friend, so if you don't like the message you just disparage the messenger. You must be quite active in politics. Quite honestly, I could care less what you believe. I just made a statement & backed it up with a legitimate reference. That is far more then you do most of the time. If you're so inclined Westside do your own research to refute the premise of my initial post.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

hello to everyone. the area around the polo grounds was in a decline back when the giants were there that is very true but i get so sick and tired of hereing people bash the stadium itself(POLO GROUNDS)as to what GREENPEACH SAID about the polo grounds creaking after all of the years let me state the facts once and for all about the polo grounds. yes it is a fact that i never saw the polo grounds because i was born in 1961 but i have talked to alot of former giants and ny mets that played there and the bottom line from them that there was nothing wrong with the polo grounds itself. the area around the stadium was bad. POLO GROUNDS was not a perfect ballpark it did have a lot of posts to obstruct view but all of the classic parks including EBBETS FIELD HAD THE POSTS ALL SO. AS far as the fan getting shot in the polo grounds that happened around the 4th july in 1950. THE POLO GROUNDS like TIGER STADIUM here in detroit still does not get the respect that they desever the polo grounds was only 53 years old when it was torn down in april 1964. just because the giants started playing at that site in 1891 alot of people think that the stadium is older than it was. I was at the site in 1988 and it was very bad at the time. meaning harlem. inclosing i wish that i would have had a chance to have gone to the polo grounds when it was still there and not a apartment complex. TO all of you people out there that was able to have had a chance to go to see the polo grounds and EBBETS FIELD consider yourself very lucky and fortunate take care everyone donald detroit. P.S I finally got my RHEINGOLD BEER IT IS GREAT. :evil

[westsidegrounds]

I see my friend, so if you don't like the message you just disparage the messenger. You must be quite active in politics. Quite honestly, I could care less what you believe. I just made a statement & backed it up with a legitimate reference. That is far more then you do most of the time. If you're so inclined Westside do your own research to refute the premise of my initial post.

If all you have is somebody saying Lee Allen said something once, that's not a "legitimate reference".

I don't have to "refute" the preposterous and ludicrous suggestion that there were "armed robberies in the Polo Grounds during games", which is obviously nothing but than a figment of his (frequently exercised, and heavily lubricated) imagination.

If that's all you got, you got nothin'.

If such a thing ever really happened it would have been headline news at the time. Well - show us the headlines. Or stow it.

And no, I have no intention of doing YOUR research for YOU.

[Greenpeach]

If all you have is somebody saying Lee Allen said something once, that's not a "legitimate reference".

I don't have to "refute" the preposterous and ludicrous suggestion that there were "armed robberies in the Polo Grounds during games", which is obviously nothing but than a figment of his (frequently exercised, and heavily lubricated) imagination.

If that's all you got, you got nothin'.

If such a thing ever really happened it would have been headline news at the time. Well - show us the headlines. Or stow it.

And no, I have no intention of doing YOUR research for YOU.

Brilliant rationalization from an esteemed member of the Flat Earth Society of Coogan's Bluff. I'm sorry my friend, but you're the one who has nothing....still again. I work for a living & don't have the time nor the inclination to do further research. If & when I come across more references, I will post them.

I noticed that you didn't comment on the fan being killed by the sniper from the rooftop. I guess you don't believe that either.

[westsidegrounds]

I noticed that you didn't comment on the fan being killed by the sniper from the rooftop. I guess you don't believe that either.

That one's a fact. It was in all the papers, there were witnesses ... it wasn't just something that popped into the mind of a sozzled old fabulist as something that would be funny to say.

It makes sense to say the Tribune Company can't guarantee Wrigley Field patrons won't be konked on the head by falling concrete, because it's a fact that Wrigley has been shedding chunks of concrete from the roof for a while now.

It doesn't make sense to say the Giants couldn't guarantee fans wouldn't be attacked by armed robbers during games, because that never happened.

It's a simple distinction.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

hello to everyone LETS SEE SOME PROOF ABOUT PEOPLE BEING ROBBED AT THE POLO GROUNDS DURING GAMES i get sick and tired of the polo grounds being bashed and put down. GRANTED THE AREA around the stadium was bad and granted that a person was killed in 1950 around the 4th july but lets see the proof about the rest. the area around EBBETS FIELD I WAS TOLD was bad also like where the polo grounds was. AND I GET SICK AND TIRED READING IN BOOKS ABOUT HOW bad the polo grounds was. as i stated before i have talked to alot of ball players who have played at the polo grounds and i have been told that there was nothing wrong with the stadium(polo grounds) TAKE CARE EVRYONE DONALD DETROIT MI

[GiantsFan]

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/past/polo2.jpg

The Giants are and always will be New York's team. The Polo Grounds was a symbol of their success and downfalls. But we all know that maybe, just maybe that it was in the best interest for the team's longevity. That is to move the team to the West. The PG was old and yes it was in a bad area. But as POLO GROUNDS said, it was the area. The Giants didn't want to be in that kind of environment anyway. But as previously mentioned, Shea Stadium would fit them. Queens would be better. The Dodgers on the other hand would fair off in Ebbets Field because they had a great fan base. Yes the Giants were losing out fans. But look what happened. California was thirsting for a ML team and they got it, North vs South. The rivalry is still alive for more than 100 years. It wouldn't matter where they are at now. They still come to New York to visit and there is that feeling hey, there would be a chance for one of THEM to come back and by golly, welcome THEM with open arms! Ladies and gentlemen, it may happen. GO GIANTS!!! :clapping

[westsidegrounds]

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/past/polo2.jpg

The Giants are and always will be New York's team.

True words.

If the city govt. back then had really appreciated the Giants' significance they would have welcomed Horace's innovative concept of building a new ballpark over on Manahattan's west side. But they were politicians, so ...

There's apparently still some room over there, I seem to remember some talk of building the Yanks a (totally unneeded) new park there some years ago. But with the Giants drawing three million or so in their latest park, it'll take some doing to get them back.

[GIANT]

After the Giants left New York, Horace Stoneham agreed to have the Giant home games recreated for Giant fans on WINS 1010. Les Keider was the broadcster who did the recreation. The team that left with them had no such contriteness for their fans. Deep down I think Stoneham knew he made a mistake. From a business perspective, O'Malley got a great deal he virtually stole the property to build Chavez Ravine. Stoneham had no such acumen and never checked on things like the winds at Candlestick Point. The Giants survived in Candlestick, which was once described by Jim Wohlford this way " The only difference between Candlestick and San Quentin is you get to go home at night."

[westsidegrounds]

Los Angeles was far more desperate for a Major League team than SF, they needed it to validate their civic existence, that's why the local pols bent over for the big O. SF was glad to get a team, but not willing to give it all away.

It was SF that held the PCL attendance record, not LA. And compare their attendance for the past few years ... SF doesn't look too shabby now, does it?

As for Candlestick, hey, it's a Giants tradition to play in, uh, idiosyncratic ballparks.

[Swiss]

Imagine the Giants moving back to New York. Hey look what happened to the Oakland Raiders. They returned back home after staying like 13 years in Los Angeles. That's a dream anyway. The sister team Mets are their team now with a piece of Dodger and Giant engraved in them forever. Sad!

I think not so. Move back to NYC? The SF Giants are making money and have a brand new stadium.
The majority of the former Giants and Dodgers' fandom are rooting loyally to the Mets.

Hello everyone, I'm a Red Sox fan but also I'm a Giants fan.

[Giantfanforever]

Welcome aboard, Swiss.

I, too, am a Red Sox fan -- since 1967, the year of "The Impossible Dream" (Yastrzemski, Lonborg) -- so now I root for the Giants in the NL and the Red Sox in the AL.

This year was a big thrill I'm sure Red Sox fans will never forget. It is the first time a team I rooted for won the World Series since 1954, the last time the Giants won -- and that too was a 4-game sweep.

[LouGehrig]

Hello everyone, I'm a Red Sox fan but also I'm a Giants fan.

You must have enjoyed 1912.

[sbal24]

I saw a reference somewhere to the Giant games being re-created. What do people remember about those re-creations? I remember listening every day to Les Keiter, not a bad announcer. I remember hearing the re-creation of McCovey's first game as a Giant vs. the Phillies when he went 5 for 5 in 1959. I believe he actually had 2 triples. As a 7 or 8 year old boy I loved those re-creations. After the Giants had a bad year in 1960 finishing 5th I believe to the Pirates they stopped the re-creations. The Giants though were pretty good in 58 and 59 almost winning both years. I think they would have packed them in at the Polo Grounds had they stayed for those teams. I don't believe Dodger games were re-created. Is that correct?
Would appreciate it hearing if you have any recollections of these re-creations. Were they on WINS?
Thanks
Steve B.

[GIANT]

I saw a reference somewhere to the Giant games being re-created. What do people remember about those re-creations? I remember listening every day to Les Keiter, not a bad announcer. I remember hearing the re-creation of McCovey's first game as a Giant vs. the Phillies when he went 5 for 5 in 1959. I believe he actually had 2 triples. As a 7 or 8 year old boy I loved those re-creations. After the Giants had a bad year in 1960 finishing 5th I believe to the Pirates they stopped the re-creations. The Giants though were pretty good in 58 and 59 almost winning both years. I think they would have packed them in at the Polo Grounds had they stayed for those teams. I don't believe Dodger games were re-created. Is that correct?
Would appreciate it hearing if you have any recollections of these re-creations. Were they on WINS?
Thanks
Steve B.

The Giant games were recreated on WINS 1010. Les Keiter was the broadcaster. Keiter broadcast New York Football Giant games in the early fifties. Keiter was a fine broadcaster. The games were recreated on PDT. Top Brass for Men was one of the sponsors. The McCovey game, which you referenced occurred on July 30, 1959. "Stretch" went 5-5 against Robin Roberts of the Phillies. I recall the first game the Giants played at Seals Stadium in 1958 against the Dodgers was recreated by Mr. Keiter. Ruben Gomez beat Don Drysdale 8-0. The early San Francisco Giant teams with Mays, Cepeda, McCovey, Kirkland and later Jim Ray Hart would have flourished offensively at the Polo Grounds. They still had Johnny Antonelli and a young right hander named Juan Marichal on the horizon.

After the Giants left New York, the Phillies televised all home games with the Giants and Dodgers on WOR TV Channel 9. Later the Pirates broadcast their games with the Giants and Dodgers on Channel 13.

The Dodgers did not recreate any of their games into the New York market upon their departure.

[EbtsFldGuy]

I've always felt that Horace Stoneham was no match for O'Malley in business acumen, force of personality, and greed. (And, believe me, I am NO admirer of O'Malley!)

But Horace outdid O'Malley in one trait far more important: decency. Horace was honest enough to tell the truth while he still had customers to lose by doing so. I've always respected him for the timing of his announcement of the move to SF.

I have no doubt that he would have stayed here had he been able to do so.

[tonypug]

I've always felt that Horace Stoneham was no match for O'Malley in business acumen, force of personality, and greed. (And, believe me, I am NO admirer of O'Malley!)

But Horace outdid O'Malley in one trait far more important: decency. Horace was honest enough to tell the truth while he still had customers to lose by doing so. I've always respected him for the timing of his announcement of the move to SF.

I have no doubt that he would have stayed here had he been able to do so.
Horace was a decent and honest man, words I would never use to describe O'Malley. Unfortunatly, like many others, Horace was a pawn in O'Malleys scheme.

[EbtsFldGuy]

After the Giants left New York, Horace Stoneham agreed to have the Giant home games recreated for Giant fans on WINS 1010. Les Keider was the broadcster who did the recreation. The team that left with them had no such contriteness for their fans. Deep down I think Stoneham knew he made a mistake. From a business perspective, O'Malley got a great deal he virtually stole the property to build Chavez Ravine. Stoneham had no such acumen and never checked on things like the winds at Candlestick Point. The Giants survived in Candlestick, which was once described by Jim Wohlford this way " The only difference between Candlestick and San Quentin is you get to go home at night."

The enormity of the mistake was evidenced one Friday night in about 1979 (I think). I was watching Bill Jorgensen do the Channel 5 (NYC) news, and he opened with this lead: "The San Francisco Giants are no more."

You'll recall an abortive movement to send the Giants to Toronto at that time. The deal was announced, and then SF scrambled and saved the team.

Had that happened, the move to SF would have lasted only 21 years!

A couple of years later, the Blue Jays were formed for Toronto.

Then later still, there was talk of the Giants going to San Jose.

Goes to show that Stoneham did not think through his move West.

[jints15]

I think the year that the Giants were going to move was 1975 not 1979 because the Blue Jays came into the A.L. in 1977.Also after the 1991 season they were all packed and on there way to Tampa Bay until Peter McGowen purchased the team and put some pride back into the franchise since he grew up as a N.Y.Giants fan.