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Brad Harris
12-02-2007, 07:20 AM
Well, unfortunately for those who back him here, he made his bed, and he has to lie in it.

While in a practical sense that's true, it certainly doesn't speak well of the judgment of the voters.

He was a guy with some very severe character flaws,..

As is virtually every other Hall-of-Famer, ballplayer and human being. Few such "flaws" impede a ballplayer's performance and subsequent value to his team. Just as you or I are still able to perform our jobs well in spite of having "character flaws".

...and on the HOF vote, that is part of the consideration to be a part of the hall.

Yes, but what part? As there's nothing specified in the guidelines, it's up to individual voters to determine how much they weight each element of the voting criteria. And for one person to weight "character" heavily enough to discount an Albert Belle is no more acceptable or less silly than for another person to weight it heavily enough to disqualify anyone but a saint. By placing much emphasis on non-playing elements of a player's record, one quickly finds himself in murky waters without a compass or an oar. And the entire exercise is rendered pointless because of the relativity factor. One man's trash is another man's treasure. And I think the voters should be debating amongst themselves about which candidates were the better players, not which were the better people.

Moral judgement? Yes. And I agree it may not be right.

It's not. Selecting ballplayers to honor as the greatest in the history of the game is not an act of exercising moral judgment, but rather critical (i.e. analytical) judgment.

I just don't think of Albert Belle as a hitter and think "Hall of Famer".

Because you're too hung up on thinking of Belle as a scumbag. Belle was one of the best hitters in baseball throughout his career and his career exceeds the minimum standards of Hall eligibility. That, to my mind at least, does say "Hall of Famer."

I think to myself "good hitter that had some big seasons and just sort of disappeared".

I could apply that exact line of thinking to Sandy Koufax: "good pitcher who had some big seasons and just sort of disappeared." Oversimplifying an issue is a great way to avoid dealing with it objectively.

If he had been a different person personality-wise? I think he's in.

Obviously, look at Kirby Puckett. If only that mean old Joey had chased those pranksters after his election.

I mean, this man lost the 1995 MVP for no less a reason than being a total douche to every member of the media. Not smart.

And the BBWAA proved they were no better when they cast their votes.

Thorn
12-02-2007, 01:38 PM
I don't know what the statistics stat fans like to view say--but Belle was one of the most dangerous hitters I've ever seen. My Father, who got to see Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Frank Robinson in their primes--calls belle the most feared batter he ever saw.

Brad Harris
12-02-2007, 03:08 PM
I don't know what the statistics stat fans like to view say--but Belle was one of the most dangerous hitters I've ever seen. My Father, who got to see Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Frank Robinson in their primes--calls belle the most feared batter he ever saw.

I could say the same about Dave Parker or Jim Rice in their primes. My father thought the same thing about Willie McCovey. It's a high compliment and certainly something worth considering when trying to assess a hitter's greatness.

rich
03-01-2008, 09:36 PM
Albert Belle: in or out?

Fuzzy Bear
03-01-2008, 10:33 PM
It's an outrage he's not in.

It's an outrage he didn't win the MVP in 1995.

Honus Wagner Rules
03-02-2008, 02:15 AM
It's an outrage he's not in.

It's an outrage he didn't win the MVP in 1995.

Ir's all about perception of one's personality. Had Belle had the public personality of a Kirby Pucket he probably would have been a 1st ballot HoFer and eveyone would wax poetic about what he could have done without the bad hip.

jalbright
03-02-2008, 08:12 AM
merged threads.

Belle has a nice case for peak voters--but if you're more career accomplishment oriented, like I am, he's got a weak case. So I can't agree with the statement that his exclusion is an "outrage".

dl4060
03-04-2008, 11:25 AM
I just posted this on another thread so I may as well post it here too.


There is no comparison between Dick Allen and either Albert Belle or Harold Baines.

The NEWS HOF Gauge has Dick Allen as the #36 best position player of the 20th century - tied with such greats as Eddie Murray, Cal Ripken and Robin Yount.

36. Dick Allen 314


Dick Allen has indisputable HOF numbers. Belle and Baines are not even in his league.

Author of BASEBALL'S BEST: The TRUE Hall of Famers

If you condsider Albert Belle in the same league as Fred Lynn that is an absolute joke. He was also a much better player than Robin Yount, he just did not play for as long. He was easily better at his peak than Eddie Murray.

Belle should be in, no doubt about it.

Otis Nixon's Bodyguard
03-04-2008, 08:58 PM
Belle is on the fence in my opinion. I'd probably vote for him. His peak value is indisputably HOF caliber. I noticed the other day that, at his peak, Belle was a very similar hitter to A-Rod. I do think he's comparable to Dick Allen, another good player who I'd probably support. I also think he's comparable to Ralph Kiner, who's in. Fair or not, it's Belle's reputation that will keep him out. If he were a fan favorite, his injury-shortened career would garner some sympathy. Along with Greg Maddux, he's also the player whose individual stats during '94 and '95 were hurt the most by the players strike (obviously some others were on their way to big things in '94, but I'm considering '95 as well). He finished third in the MVP vote in '94 on the strength of a 193 OPS+, and was pretty clearly the best player in baseball in '95, hitting 50 home runs when it was still rare (and in a strike-shortened 144 game schedule). As it sits though, I don't think he has a shot at the Hall.

Cowtipper
09-24-2008, 03:22 PM
These two can be combined.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=50688&highlight=belle

jalbright
09-24-2008, 06:03 PM
threads merged.

Otis Nixon's Bodyguard
09-25-2008, 12:25 PM
Another comment on Belle: I think he was misunderstood to a large degree and was not as mean of a person as his reputation suggests. I think Belle was an unhappy man with a bad temper and, at one point, a drinking problem. His bad temper showed itself several times in high-profile situations. He did not like to talk to the press and preferred that they leave him alone. For these reasons, he was made out to be a villain. Either this characterization didn't phase him or it made him angrier, but he made no attempt to mend his reputation. In similar fashion, he made no attempt to draw attention to his positive characteristics. However, he was also known to be friendly to fans and quite charitable during his career. He was an Eagle Scout and graduated sixth in his high school class. He received a baseball scholarship to Notre Dame and an appointment to the Air Force Academy. Obviously, he did not pursue either of those opportunities, but I would say that the fact he was considered for them speaks well of him. I would almost call Belle the antithesis of guys like Steve Garvey and Roger Clemens - guys who will smile for the camera and know what to say at key times, but have no character when no one's looking. Belle, on the other hand, seemed to be a quiet guy who happened to have some serious character flaws which he made no public apologies for. He didn't worry about his reputation and preferred to stay out of the spotlight. Some people think athlete's are obligated to do more than that, but that's a matter of opinion. I don't know how or even if any of it affects his HOF candidacy, but that's my two cents on Albert Belle.