All-Time Black Team, A & B

[Bill Burgess]

Anyone care to share your all-time Black teams, A & B?

And please don't forget to post your teams on our other Documention Thread, 'Member's Official Opinions' ---
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38137 Thanking you in advance for your participation---Bill

A Team:
1B - Buck Leonard;
2B - Jackie Robinson;
SS - John Henry Lloyd;
3B - Oliver Marcell;
LF - Barry Bonds;
CF - Oscar Charleston:
RF - Willie Mays, Christobal Torriente;
C - Josh Gibson and Biz Mackay;
P - Bob Gibson, Pedro Martinez, "Smokey Joe" Williams, "Satchel" Paige, "Bullet Joe" Rogan, John Donaldson and Willie Foster;
Utility IF - Sam Bankheart;
Utility OF - Martin Dihigo, Monte Irvin, Ken Griffey, Jr.;
Coaches - Dizzy Dismukes and Danny McClelland;
Manager - Rube Foster

B Team:
1B - Ben Taylor;
2B - Bingo DeMoss;
3B - Judy Johnson:
SS - Willie Wells:
LF - Hank Aaron;
CF - Cool Papa Bell;
RF - Roberto Clemente;
C - Roy Campanella and Bruce Petway;
P - Dave Brown, Cannonball Dick Redding, Nip Winters, Dizzy Dismukes and Don Newcombe, Dave Stuart;
Utility 1F - John Beckwith, Newt Allen, A. Rodriguez, Ernie Banks;
Utility OF - Clint Thomas, Chino Smith, Pete Hill
coaches - C.I. Taylor and Dave Malarcher,
Manager - Cum Posey.


Honorable mentions: Frank Robinson, Gwynn, Morgan, Billy Williams, Bill Madlock, Rod Carew, Ozzie Smith
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Form Chart:

C - Roy Campanella, Elston Howard. Negro Leagues: Josh Gibson, James "Biz" Mackay, Bruce Petway, Larry Brown, Frank Duncan, "Double Duty" Radcliffe, Louis "Santop" Loftin, Quincy Trouppe.

1B - Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Cecil Cooper, Cecil Fielder, Tony Perez, Eddie Murray, Frank Thomas; Negro Leagues: Buck Leonard, Ben Taylor

2B - Jackie Robinson, Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Alfonso Soriano; Negro Leagues: Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss

SS - Ernie Banks; Negro Leagues: John "Pop" Lloyd, John Beckwith, Willie Wells,

3B - Bill Madlock; Negro Leagues: Judy Johnson, Ray Dandridge, Oliver Marcell

LF - Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson, Billy Williams, Willie Stargell. Negro Leagues: Mule Suttles

CF - Willie Mays, Ken Griffey, Jr., Andruw Jones, Torri Hunter, Vada Pinson; Negro Leaguers: Oscar Charleston, "Cool Papa" Bell, Carlos Torriente, Spot Poles, Pete Hill, Martin Dihigo

RF - Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Tony Gwynn, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente, Dave Winfield, Tony Oliva, Vlad Guerrero, Sammie Sosa, Daryl Strawberry; Negro Leagues: Monte Irvin, Turkey Stearnes,

Pitchers:

1930-1960: Don Newcombe

1960-1980: Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, Ferguson Jenkins, Luis Tiant, Bob Veale, Al Downing,

1980-Present: Pedro Martinez, Dave Stewart, Mariano Rivera

Negro Leagues:
Robert Leroy "Satchel" Paige, 1926-1967
"Smokey Joe" Williams, 1905-1932
Wilbur "Bullet Joe" Rogan, 1917-38
"Cannonball" Dick Redding, 1911-38
Dave Brown, 1918-1925
Andrew "Rube" Foster, 1902-1926
Bill Foster, 1923-38
Jose Mendez, 1908-1926
Martin Dihigo, 1923-45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some background Reference Resources:

It might serve a purpose to see how many former members of the Negro Leagues have presently been enshrined.

1971 - Satchel Paige --------- Negro L. committee
1972 - Josh Gibson --------- Negro L. committe
1972 - Buck Leonard --------- Negro L. committee
1973 - Monte Irvin ---------- Negro L. committee
1974 - "Cool Papa" Bell -------- Negro L. committee
1975 - Judy Johnson -------- Negro L. committee
1976 - Oscar Charleston ------ Negro L. committee
1977 - Martin Dihigo -------- Negro L. committee
1977 - "Pop" Lloyd -------- Negro L. committee

1981 - Rube Foster - ---------Veterans committee
1987 - Ray Dandridge ---------- Veterans committee
1995 - Leon Day ----------- Veterans committee
1996 - Willie Foster ----------- Veterans committee
1997 - Willie Wells ------------ Veterans committee
1998 - Bullet Joe Rogan --------- Veterans committee
1999 - Smokey Joe Williams ------ Veterans committee
2000 - Turkey Stearns ----------- Veterans committee
2001 - Hilton Smith - -------------Veterans committee
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A. In 1952, the Pittsburgh Courier polled 31 Negro league players, writers, officials and managers and they
selected the following team:

A Team------------------------B Team

1B - Buck Leonard-----------1B - Ben Taylor
2B - Jackie Robinson---------2B - Bingo DeMoss
SS - John Henry Lloyd-------SS - Willie Wells
3B - Oliver Marcell-----------3B - Judy Johnson
LF - Monte Irvin-------------LF - Pete Hill
CF - Oscar Charleston-------CF - Cool Papa Bell
RF - Christobal Torriente----RF - Chino Smith
C - Josh Gibson / Biz Mackey-C - Campanella / Bruce Petway
P - Smokey Joe Williams------P - Dave Brown
P - Satchel Paige------------P - Cannonball Dick Redding
P - Bullet Joe Rogan---------P - Nip Winters
P - John Donaldson ----------P - Dizzy Dismukes
P - Willie Foster-------------P - Don Newcombe
Utility OF - Martin Dihigo---Utility 1B - John Beckwith
Utility IF - Martin Dihigo----Utility 1B - Newt Allen
Utility IF - Sam Banheart---Utility - Clint Thomas
Coaches - Dizzy Dismukes--coaches - C. I. Taylor
Coaches - Danny McClelland--coaches - Dave Malarcher
Manager = Rube Foster-------Manager - Cum Posey
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Pittsburgh Courier, a black newspaper, polled its fans in 1952. Their readers listed the following players into 5 teams:

First team: (1B) Buck Leonard, (2B) Jackie Robinson, (SS) Pop Lloyd, (3B) Oliver Marcelle, (OF) Monte Irvin, (OF) Oscar Charleston, (OF) Cristobel Torriente, (C) Josh Gibson, (C) Biz Mackey, (P) Joe Williams, (P) Satchel Paige, (P) Bullet Rogan, (P) John Dondaldson, (P) Bill Foster, (Utility) Martin Dihigo, (Utility) Sam Bankhead, (Mgr) Rube Foster, (Coach) Dizzy Dismukes, (Coach) Danny McClellan.

Second Team: (1B) Ben Taylor, (2B) Bingo DeMoss, (SS) Willie Wells, (3B) Judy Johnson, (OF) Pete Hill, (OF) Cool Papa Bell, (OF) Chino Smith, (C) Roy Campanella, (C) Bruce Petway, (P) Dave Brown, (P) Dick Redding, (P) Nip Winters, (P) Dizzy Dismukes, (P) Don Newcombe, (Utility) John Beckwith, (Utility) Newt Allen, (Mgr) Cum Posey, (Coach) C.I. Taylor, (Coach) Dave Malarcher.

Third Team: (1B) Jud Wilson, (2B) Bill Monroe, (SS) Dick Lundy, (3B) Jud Wilson, (OF) Rap Dixon, (OF) Larry Doby, (OF) Fats Jenkins, (C) Double Duty Radcliffe, (C) Louis Santop, (P) Slim Jones, (P) Bill Holland, (P) Phil Cockrell, (P) Webster McDonald, (P) Bill Byrd, (Utility) Emmett Bowman, (Utility) Dick Wallace, (Mgr) Ed Bolden.

Fourth Team: (1B) Ed Douglas, (2B) George Scales, (SS) Doby Moore, (3B) Ray Dandridge, (OF) Jimmy Lyons, (OF) Mule Suttles, (OF) Spotswood Poles, (C) Frank Duncan, (C) Bill Perkins, (P) Double Duty Radcliffe, (P) Frank Wickware, (P) Danny McClellan, (P) Leon Day, (P) Bill Jackman, (Utility) Rev Cannady, (Utility) Jose Mendez, (Mgr) Vic Harris.

Fifth Team: (1B) George Carr, (2B) Bunny Downs, (SS) Pelayo Chacon, (3B) Dave Malarcher, (OF) Frank Duncan, (OF) Turkey Stearnes, (OF) Jelly Gardner, (C) Doc Wiley, (C) Speck Webster, (P) Stringbean Williams, (P) Ray Brown, (P) Rats Henderson, (P) Luis Tiant, (P) Leroy Matlock.

Others receiving votes: (1B) Leroy Grant, Mule Suttles; (2B) Nate Harris, Sammy T. Hughes, Frank Warfield, Ray Dandridge, George Wright, Harry Williams; (SS) Gerard Williams, Bobby Williams, Morton Clark; (3B) Bill Francis, Jim Taylor; (OF) Minnie Minoso, Jap Payne, Blaine Hall, Ted Strong, Ted Page, Vic Harris; (P) Jose Mendez, Laymon Yokely.

*Some players that weren't listed but could have been: (1B) Buck O'Neil, Red Moore, Steel Arm Davis, George Giles; (2B) Bonnie Serrell; (SS) Jake Stephens; (3B) Alec Radcliffe, Bobby Robinson; (OF) Jumbo Kimbro, Willard Brown, Bill Wright, Neil Robinson, Ducky Davenport; (C) Quincy Trouppe, Larry Brown, Buck Ewing, Pops Coleman; (P) Chet Brewer, Hilton Smith, Barney Brown, Ted Trent, Max Manning, Sug Cornelius, Harry Salmon, Barney Morris; (Mgr) Buck O'Neil, Double Duty Radcliffe, Quincy Trouppe.

[Appling]

Mixing the Negro league stars with black MLB players is too confusing for me. I never saw a Negro League game -- not even on TV,
With stats being so meager, most of what we "know" of the Negro league stars is myth, fable and anecdote.

All I can offer is my list of star black MLB players:
1B: Eddie Murray
2B: Joe Morgan
SS: Ozzie Smith? Ernie Banks?
3B: Bill Madlock
LF: Barry Bonds
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Hank Aaron? Sammy Sosa?
C: Roy Campanella
P: Bob Gibson

I wonder how this team would match up against an all-Hispanic team. That's another group that was excluded from early MLB.

[RuthMayBond]

with the help of my "relative" Bill James"
P-Paige
P-Rogan
P-PMartinez
P-JWilliams/Hilton Smith
C-Gibson
1B-Murray
2B-Morgan
3B-Dandridge
SS-Lloyd
OF-Mays
OF-Charleston
OF-Bonds/Stearnes
And you KNOW I'd put Dihigo at 2B or something :laugh

[julusnc]

A very Interesting topic Bill.I must have missed it when you first posted it to the forums.

Team A

catcher - Josh Gibson
first - Buck Leonard
second - Jackie Robinson
shortstop - Pop Loyd
third - Judy Johnson
outfield - Willie Mays
outfield - Oscar Charleston
outfield - Barry Bonds
outfield - Willie Stargell
dh - Dave Winfield
utility - Martin DiHigo
utility - Willie McCovey
utility - Roy Campanella
utility - Minnie Minoso
utility - Jim Rice

starting pitcher - Satchel Paige
starting pitcher - Pedro Martinez
starting pitcher - Juan Marichal
starting pitcher - Bob Gibson
starting pitcher - Fergie Jenkins

relief pitcher - Lee Smith
relief pitcher - Smokey Joe Williams
relief pitcher - Mariano Rivera
relief pitcher - Don Newcombe

Team B

catcher - Bizz Mackey
first - Eddie Murray
second - Joe Morgan
shortstop - Ozzie Smith
third - Oliver Marcelle
outfield - Cristobal Torriente
outfield - Cool Papa Bell
outfield - Roberto Clemente
outfield - Frank Robinson
dh - Hank Aaron
utility - Rickey Henderson
utility - Louis Santop
utility - Billy Williams
utility - Rod Carew
utility - Kirby Puckett

starting pitcher - Vida Blue
starting pitcher - Joe Rogan
starting pitcher - Willie Foster
starting pitcher - Dave Stewart
starting pitcher - Luis Tiant

relief pitcher - Jose Mesa
relief pitcher - JR Richard
relief pitcher - Ted Radcliffe
relief pitcher - Don Wilson

That's my A & B teams but with more thought I may move some around in the future but this is a good start at my thinking of what I would want on my teams.

I tried for a balance on both teams but I know that Team A's pitching is superior but either team would win on a given day.

[The Dude]

I must have missed it as well. Probably thought it was the same "All Time Team A & B" thread as the one that has 5 pages.

I'll echo Appling's word, and say I know barely anything about Negro Leaguers that's factual, but I'll go on word of mouth for some of these.

C-Josh Gibson
C2-Roy Campanella
1B-Eddie Murray
2B-Jackie Robinson
SS-Pop Lloyd
3B-Mad Dog Madlock
RF-Frank Robinson
CF-Willie Mays
LF-Billy Williams
DH-Cecil Cooper

SP-Juan Marichal
SP-Satchel Paige
SP-Bob Gibson
SP-Fergie Jenkins
RP-Lee Smith

[tay]

Hey guys (and girls?),

New guy here. Thought this looked like an interesting thread to jump into. I chose to just give an all negro league team because any chance I have of giving these men the props they deserve, well frankly, I can't resist.


Team A

1b- Buck Leonard
2b-Bingo DeMoss
SS-Pop Lloyd
3b-Ray Dandridge
C-Josh Gibson
Of-Oscar Charleston
Cristobal Torriente (I know, he's Cuban)
Turkey Stearnes
P-Bullet Joe Rogan

Manager- Rube Foster

Team B

1b-Mule Suttles
2b-Sammy T. Hughes
SS-Willie Wells
3b-Judy Johnson
C- Biz Mackey
Of- Cool Papa Bell
Monte Irvin
Jud Wilson (didn't play much outfield, but had to be on this list somewhere)
P-Satchel Paige

Manager- Double Duty Radcliffe

What I wouldn't give to see a matchup between these teams "come to life". Thanks for an interesting topic.

[schlabotnik]

Let me offer this first draft. Time is not always a Commodity that is easy to get hold of... but we will prevail...Whatever that means!


1B Buck Leonard
2B Jackie Robinson
SS John Henry "Pop" Lloyd
3B Judy Johnson
LF Lou Brock ( Suprise, suprise, suprise!)
CF Willie Mays
RF Roberto Clemente
C1 Josh Gibson
C2 Roy Campanella
SP Satchel Paige
SP Bob Gibson
SP Leon Day
SP William Hendrick "Willie" Foster
LR Smokey Joe Williams
SR Joe "Bullet" Rogan
SR Hilton Smith
CL* Andre "Rube" Foster
U Ted DD Radcliff
U Martin Dihigo
U Oscar Charleston
U Ernie Banks
U Oliver Marcelle.

* I'm making Rube Foster a player/manager.

Later for the final team.

[The Splendid Splinter]

My A Team:

C: Gibson
1B: Leonard
2B: Jackie
3B: Judy Johnson
SS: Lloyd
OF: Charleston
OF: Stearnes
OF: Cool Papa
Util: Dihigo
SP: Smokey Joe
SP: Satchel Paige



My Great Grandpa's:

C: Gibson
1B: Suttles
2B: Bingo DeMoss
3B: Judy Johnson
SS: Lloyd
OF: Torriente
OF: Charleston
OF: Stearnes
Util: Cool Papa
SP: Smokey Joe
SP: Satchel Paige

[64Cards]

I'm going to only include those who played MLB, not that those who only played in the Negro Leagues were inferior players, but I honestly don'y know enough beyond the superstars [Gibson, Bell, Leonard] that I would do a diservice to other deserving players.

1B-McCovey
2b-Morgan
3B-J.Robinson
SS-Banks
LF-F. Robinson
CF-Mays
RF-Aaron
c-Campanella
P-Gibson,Martinez, Marichal,Cuellar, Newcombe
RP-Paige,Lee Smith

[Bill Burgess]

C - Biz Mackay, Santop Loftin, Josh Gibson, Bruce Petway, Larry Brown
1B - Buck Leonard, Ben Taylor, Jud Wilson, Ed Douglas, George Car
2B - Bingo DeMoss, Jackie Robinson, Bill Monroe, George Scales, Bunny Downs
SS - John Lloyd, Willie Wells, John Beckwith, Dick Lundy, Doby Moore
3B - Judy Johnson, Oliver Marcelle, Ray Dandridge, Dave Malarcher, Bill Francis
OF - Irvin, Hill, Suttles, Dihigo, Dixon,
OF - Charleson, Bell, Spot Poles, Doby, Gardner
OF - Torriente, Chino Smith, Stearns, Jenkins, Payne
P - Paige, Williams, Rogan, John Dondaldson, Bill Foster


Bill Burgess

[Mischa]

C: Josh Gibson, Roy Campanella
1B: Willie McCovey, Eddie Murray
2B: Joe Morgan, Jackie Robinson
SS: Willie Wells, Pop Lloyd (so many good ones - Larkin, Dobie Moore, Banks, The Wizard..)
3B: Bill Madlock, Ray Dandridge (man, that's a weak spot)
RF: Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson
CF: Oscar Charleston, Willie Mays (sorry, Mr. Griffey)
LF: Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson
P: Smokey Joe Williams, Satchel Paige, Bob Gibson, Ferguson Jenkins, Lee Smith, Bill Foster, Bullet Joe Rogan


I'm only counting African-Americans (or African-Canadians). Otherwise Cristobal Torriente, Pedro Martinez, Juan Marichal, Martin Dihigo and Jose Mendez would all likely join the list.

[538280]

Bill,

Here's my All-Time Black team, but I am not including hispanics. The term "black" is meant to refer to African-Americans, not dark-skinned hispanics, so I will not include players such as Pedro Martinez and Christobel Torriente. Here is my team:

The A team:
C-Josh Gibson
1B-Buck Leonard
2B-Joe Morgan
3B-Ray Dandridge
SS-Pop Lloyd
LF-Barry Bonds
CF-Oscar Charleston
RF-Hank Aaron

SP1-Satchel Paige
SP2-Smokey Joe Williams
SP3-Bob Gibson
SP4-Willie Foster
SP5-Ferguson Jenkins
RP-Lee Smith

The B team
C-Biz Mackey
1B-Frank Thomas
2B-Jackie Robinson
3B-Bill Madlock
SS-Willie Wells
LF-Rickey Henderson
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Frank Robinson

SP1-Joe Rogan
SP2-Don Newcombe
SP3-Hilton Smith
SP4-John Donaldson
SP5-Rube Foster

[Dodger]

A Team
C - Josh Gibson
1B - Willie McCovey
2B - Joe Morgan
SS - Ernie Banks
3B - Ray Dandridge
LF - Barry Bonds
CF - Willie Mays
RF - Hank Aaron
P - Bob Gibson, Satchel Paige, Joe Williams, Fergie Jenkins

B Team
C - Roy Campanella
1B - Eddie Murray
2B - Jackie Robinson
SS - Pop Lloyd
3B - Judy Johnson
LF - Turkey Stearnes
CF - Oscar Charleston
RF - Frank Robinson
P - Joe Rogan, Bill Foster, Luis Tiant

[jalbright]

I don't like trying to determine race nor do I like evaluating still active players. I don't think it productive to separate out Afro-American major leaguers from other major leaguers. I will, however, reprise my Negro League all-time team:

C--Josh Gibson, Louis Santop
1B--Buck Leonard, Mule Suttles
2B--Martin Dihigo, Frank Grant
3B--Ray Dandridge, Jud Wilson
SS--Pop Lloyd, Willie Wells
OF--Oscar Charleston, Cristobal Torriente, Turkey Stearnes
Cool Papa Bell, Monte Irvin, Minnie Minoso
Starting pitcher--Satchel Paige, Smoky Joe Williams, Bullet Joe Rogan, Ray Brown and Cannonball Dick Redding
closer--Hilton Smith
bullpen--Willie Foster, Leon Day, Rube Foster
manager--Rube Foster

honorable mention--IF John Beckwith, SS Dobie Moore, ss Home Run Johnson, c Biz Mackey, mgr C. I. Taylor

Jim Albright

[charlesblalack@yahoo.com]

Guys, I've seen Pedro Martinez, Cristobal Torriente, Juan Marichal, and Jose Mesa mentioned. They're HISPANIC it's ignorant to say that they're black for whatever reason. Anywho, here's my list (MLB players only):

C Roy Campanella
1B Frank Thomas
2B Joe Morgan
SS Ernie Banks
3B Bill Madlock
LF Barry Bonds
CF Willie Mays
RF Henry Aaron
DH Harold Baines
P Bob Gibson

The lineup:
1 Morgan
2 Mays
3 Aaron
4 Bonds
5 Thomas
6 Banks
7 Baines
8 Campanella
9 Madlock

[Bill Burgess]

Guys,

Why so few "B" teams? If you care to add one, just add it to your original team. No need to use a separate post, which will divide your A's from your B's.

Bill

[caribeño]

Can anyone ,explain me , why is that we hispanics , or latinos , caribeños , or whatever you want to call us , are not black , negroes ? I don't recall in the history of our region of people coming in from Germany , or Russia , or any nordic country . But there are a lot of us ( most of us , i should say ) that our ancestor came in from Zambia , Senegal , The Guineas , Congo , and so on .
Or is there a new " Gentlemen's Agreement " with some of the people that post here that i don't know ?
All the people that really knows about the NL ( before and after the '20s ) , which , by the way are the majority here , knows about the impact of caribeños in those circuits .
Thanks for the inclusion of Méndez , Torriente , Miñoso , Tiant , et al .

[Brian McKenna]

Can anyone ,explain me , why is that we hispanics , or latinos , caribeños , or whatever you want to call us , are not black , negroes ? I don't recall in the history of our region of people coming in from Germany , or Russia , or any nordic country . But there are a lot of us ( most of us , i should say ) that our ancestor came in from Zambia , Senegal , The Guineas , Congo , and so on .
Or is there a new " Gentlemen's Agreement " with some of the people that post here that i don't know ?
All the people that really knows about the NL ( before and after the '20s ) , which , by the way are the majority here , knows about the impact of caribeños in those circuits .
Thanks for the inclusion of Méndez , Torriente , Miñoso , Tiant , et al .

that's why i chose to make my post on the stupid side

[lamearm]

What about this guy???http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/plaques/images/Smith_Hilton.jpg

[Bill Burgess]

Hilton Smith? What about him?

Bill Burgess

[BaseballHistoryNut]

I may or may not get into doing this one tomorrow (it's 2 a.m., so I guess it IS "tomorrow," but....), but not now.

I don't know how anyone can choose between Willie Mays and Oscar Charleston. It's a guess. And what a pain to pick between Jackie Robinson and Joe Morgan, although I know which one I'm picking (so does Chris :) ).

Yeah, I'll probably get into this, but I think I'll have to rate Charleston and Mays a tie, because I see NO WAY I can make that guess intelligently. Bill James just guess Mays at #3 and Charleston at #4.

Charleston is the one guy who may have been better than Babe Ruth, imo. But he also may have been #36 all time, ya know? But lord oh lord, the things they say about him....

BHN

[AstrosFan]

A

C Josh Gibson
1B Frank Thomas
2B Joe Morgan
3B Ray Dandridge
SS Pop Lloyd
LF Barry Bonds
CF Oscar Charleston (as BHN said, it's a toss up between him and Mays)
RF Hank Aaron
P Satchel Paige, Smokey Joe Williams, Bullet Joe Rogan, Pedro Martinez, Bob Gibson

B

C Roy Campanella
1B Eddie Murray
2B Jackie Robinson
3B Judy Johnson
SS Willie Wells
LF Rickey Henderson
CF Willie Mays
RF Frank Robinson
P Ferguson Jenkins, Bill Foster, Rube Foster, Juan Marichal, Hilton Smith

That sounds all right to me.

[lamearm]

Hilton Smith? What about him?


I found it strange he was neglected on some lists or on the "B" team on others...

[TonyK]

I haven't seen Hall of Famer Frank Grant's name mentioned yet.

[jalbright]

I haven't seen Hall of Famer Frank Grant's name mentioned yet.
Check post 14, at second base. ;)

Jim Albright

[TonyK]

Check post 14, at second base. ;)

Jim Albright

Wise choice. ;-)

[Andominus]

As one who loves sports and has extensively studied critical race theory, let me say that I am happy to see this thread and discussion, albeit a couple of years late lol. I have seen a couple of really troubling quotes, so before I list my team I'll share my two cents.

Bill,

Here's my All-Time Black team, but I am not including hispanics. The term "black" is meant to refer to African-Americans, not dark-skinned hispanics, so I will not include players such as Pedro Martinez and Christobel Torriente. Here is my team:


So according to you, someone from Ghana or Kenya is not black because they are not African-American?! I was born in Harlem but my fam comes from Eritrea (in east Africa). Are you going to argue that my family is not black? Back in the day the term black almost exclusively referred to African-Americans because almost all black Americans in this country were the descendants of American slaves. But America's black population is more diverse now, with black people from all over the world. Today to say that black only refers to African-Americans is ludicrous and obviously Ameri-centric, since only roughly 40 million of the 1.5 billion black people in the world are from the United States.
Also, hispanic isn't really used anymore; it's even considered offensive by many Latinos, especially those from the Caribbean, but that's a debate for another forum.

Guys, I've seen Pedro Martinez, Cristobal Torriente, Juan Marichal, and Jose Mesa mentioned. They're HISPANIC it's ignorant to say that they're black for whatever reason.

Another incorrect and ignorant comment. Think about the history of Cuban baseball players in America. The New York Cubans of the Negro League were a star-studded team whose roster was comprised almost exclusively of Afro-Latinos! Why couldn't these Caribbean ball players play in the "Majors"?...because they were black. On the other hand, some Cuban players (white ones of Spanish descent) like Gilberto Torres and Santiago Ulrich played for the Washington Senators two years before Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier. These Washington Senator players from Cuba weren't considered to have broken the color barrier because no color barrier had been broken. They were white. Latino isn't a race; it's an "ethnicity" of many races. In the Caribbean, where most Latino ballplayers come from, the majority of people are of African descent. While you may want to dispute it, there isn't really anything to argue. Go to the DR or Cuba and see for yourself. More African slaves were shipped to Latin America than to the United States. It is possible to have multiple salient identities. Latino and black are not mutually exclusive. All of those players you mentioned are most definitely Latino, but they are also most definitely black (not African-American but they are still of African descent).

So yea, some of these players can also be on an alltime Latino list, but that's not a list I'm making now...I figured I wouldn’t need much relief with these starters. I also doubt anything would drop in with this outfield…

25 man roster

1. Cool Papa Bell - CF
2. Judy Johnson - 3B
3. Buck Leonard - 1B
4. Josh Gibson - C
5. Oscar Charleston - RF
6. Willie Mays - LF
7. Pop Lloyd - SS
8. Martin DiHigo - 2B
9. Satchel Paige - P

bench – Joe Morgan
bench - Roy Campanella
bench - Cristobal Torriente
bench – Roberto Clemente
bench - Frank Robinson
bench - Rickey Henderson
bench – Hank Aaron
bench – Ernie Banks

starting pitcher - Satchel Paige
starting pitcher - Pedro Martinez
starting pitcher - Bob Gibson
starting pitcher - Juan Marichal
starting pitcher – Vida Blue

bullpen - Smokey Joe Williams
bullpen - Mariano Rivera
bullpen - Joe Rogan
bullpen – Ferguson Jenkins

[RuthMayBond]

As one who loves sports and has extensively studied critical race theory, let me say that I am happy to see this thread and discussion, albeit a couple of years late lol.

bench – Joe Morgan
bench - Roy Campanella
bench - Cristobal Torriente
bench – Roberto Clemente
bench - Frank Robinson
bench - Rickey Henderson
bench – Hank Aaron
bench – Ernie BanksThat is one CRAZY bench :bowdown::bowdown:

<starting pitcher – Vida Blue

bullpen - Smokey Joe Williams>

Sure you don't wanna reverse these?
How 'bout replacing Vida with Tiant, or add LSmith in short relief?

[Bill Burgess]

I do not differentiate between Afro-Americans and internationally-born blacks. But I do not impose my values on others. All are free to compose their teams as they see fit. My absence of moral judgment is deliberate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Form Chart:

C - Roy Campanella, Elston Howard. Negro Leagues: Josh Gibson, James "Biz" Mackay, Bruce Petway, Larry Brown, Frank Duncan, "Double Duty" Radcliffe, Louis "Santop" Loftin, Quincy Trouppe.

1B - Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Cecil Cooper, Cecil Fielder, Tony Perez, Eddie Murray, Frank Thomas; Negro Leagues: Buck Leonard, Ben Taylor

2B - Jackie Robinson, Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Alfonso Soriano; Negro Leagues: Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss

SS - Ernie Banks; Negro Leagues: John "Pop" Lloyd, John Beckwith, Willie Wells,

3B - Bill Madlock; Negro Leagues: Judy Johnson, Ray Dandridge, Oliver Marcell

LF - Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson, Billy Williams, Willie Stargell. Negro Leagues: Mule Suttles

CF - Willie Mays, Ken Griffey, Jr., Andruw Jones, Torri Hunter, Vada Pinson; Negro Leaguers: Oscar Charleston, "Cool Papa" Bell, Carlos Torriente, Spot Poles, Pete Hill, Martin Dihigo

RF - Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Tony Gwynn, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente, Dave Winfield, Tony Oliva, Vlad Guerrero, Sammie Sosa, Daryl Strawberry; Negro Leagues: Monte Irvin, Turkey Stearnes,

Pitchers:

1930-1960: Don Newcombe

1960-1980: Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, Ferguson Jenkins, Luis Tiant, Bob Veale, Al Downing,

1980-Present: Pedro Martinez, Dave Stewart, Mariano Rivera

Negro Leagues:
Robert Leroy "Satchel" Paige, 1926-1967
"Smokey Joe" Williams, 1905-1932
Wilbur "Bullet Joe" Rogan, 1917-38
"Cannonball" Dick Redding, 1911-38
Dave Brown, 1918-1925
Andrew "Rube" Foster, 1902-1926
Bill Foster, 1923-38
Jose Mendez, 1908-1926
Martin Dihigo, 1923-45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some background Reference Resources:

It might serve a purpose to see how many former members of the Negro Leagues have presently been enshrined.

1971 - Satchel Paige --------- Negro L. committee
1972 - Josh Gibson --------- Negro L. committe
1972 - Buck Leonard --------- Negro L. committee
1973 - Monte Irvin ---------- Negro L. committee
1974 - "Cool Papa" Bell -------- Negro L. committee
1975 - Judy Johnson -------- Negro L. committee
1976 - Oscar Charleston ------ Negro L. committee
1977 - Martin Dihigo -------- Negro L. committee
1977 - "Pop" Lloyd -------- Negro L. committee

1981 - Rube Foster - ---------Veterans committee
1987 - Ray Dandridge ---------- Veterans committee
1995 - Leon Day ----------- Veterans committee
1996 - Willie Foster ----------- Veterans committee
1997 - Willie Wells ------------ Veterans committee
1998 - Bullet Joe Rogan --------- Veterans committee
1999 - Smokey Joe Williams ------ Veterans committee
2000 - Turkey Stearns ----------- Veterans committee
2001 - Hilton Smith - -------------Veterans committee
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A. In 1952, the Pittsburgh Courier polled 31 Negro league players, writers, officials and managers and they
selected the following team:

A Team------------------------B Team

1B - Buck Leonard-----------1B - Ben Taylor
2B - Jackie Robinson---------2B - Bingo DeMoss
SS - John Henry Lloyd-------SS - Willie Wells
3B - Oliver Marcell-----------3B - Judy Johnson
LF - Monte Irvin-------------LF - Pete Hall
CF - Oscar Charleston-------CF - Cool Papa Bell
RF - Christobal Torriente----RF - Chino Smith
C - Josh Gibson / Biz Mackey-C - Campanella / Bruce Petway
P - Smokey Joe Williams------P - Dave Brown
P - Satchel Paige------------P - Cannonball Dick Redding
P - Bullet Joe Rogan---------P - Nip Winters
P - John Donaldson ----------P - Dizzy Dismukes
P - Willie Foster-------------P - Don Newcombe
Utility OF - Martin Dihigo---Utility 1B - John Beckwith
Utility IF - Martin Dihigo----Utility 1B - Newt Allen
Utility IF - Sam Banheart---Utility - Clint Thomas
Coaches - Dizzy Dismukes--coaches - C. I. Taylor
Coaches - Danny McClelland--coaches - Dave Malarcher
Manager = Rube Foster-------Manager - Cum Posey
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Pittsburgh Courier, a black newspaper, polled its fans in 1952. Their readers listed the following players into 5 teams:

First team: (1B) Buck Leonard, (2B) Jackie Robinson, (SS) Pop Lloyd, (3B) Oliver Marcelle, (OF) Monte Irvin, (OF) Oscar Charleston, (OF) Cristobel Torriente, (C) Josh Gibson, (C) Biz Mackey, (P) Joe Williams, (P) Satchel Paige, (P) Bullet Rogan, (P) John Dondaldson, (P) Bill Foster, (Utility) Martin Dihigo, (Utility) Sam Bankhead, (Mgr) Rube Foster, (Coach) Dizzy Dismukes, (Coach) Danny McClellan.

Second Team: (1B) Ben Taylor, (2B) Bingo DeMoss, (SS) Willie Wells, (3B) Judy Johnson, (OF) Pete Hill, (OF) Cool Papa Bell, (OF) Chino Smith, (C) Roy Campanella, (C) Bruce Petway, (P) Dave Brown, (P) Dick Redding, (P) Nip Winters, (P) Dizzy Dismukes, (P) Don Newcombe, (Utility) John Beckwith, (Utility) Newt Allen, (Mgr) Cum Posey, (Coach) C.I. Taylor, (Coach) Dave Malarcher.

Third Team: (1B) Jud Wilson, (2B) Bill Monroe, (SS) Dick Lundy, (3B) Jud Wilson, (OF) Rap Dixon, (OF) Larry Doby, (OF) Fats Jenkins, (C) Double Duty Radcliffe, (C) Louis Santop, (P) Slim Jones, (P) Bill Holland, (P) Phil Cockrell, (P) Webster McDonald, (P) Bill Byrd, (Utility) Emmett Bowman, (Utility) Dick Wallace, (Mgr) Ed Bolden.

Fourth Team: (1B) Ed Douglas, (2B) George Scales, (SS) Doby Moore, (3B) Ray Dandridge, (OF) Jimmy Lyons, (OF) Mule Suttles, (OF) Spotswood Poles, (C) Frank Duncan, (C) Bill Perkins, (P) Double Duty Radcliffe, (P) Frank Wickware, (P) Danny McClellan, (P) Leon Day, (P) Bill Jackman, (Utility) Rev Cannady, (Utility) Jose Mendez, (Mgr) Vic Harris.

Fifth Team: (1B) George Carr, (2B) Bunny Downs, (SS) Pelayo Chacon, (3B) Dave Malarcher, (OF) Frank Duncan, (OF) Turkey Stearnes, (OF) Jelly Gardner, (C) Doc Wiley, (C) Speck Webster, (P) Stringbean Williams, (P) Ray Brown, (P) Rats Henderson, (P) Luis Tiant, (P) Leroy Matlock.

Others receiving votes: (1B) Leroy Grant, Mule Suttles; (2B) Nate Harris, Sammy T. Hughes, Frank Warfield, Ray Dandridge, George Wright, Harry Williams; (SS) Gerard Williams, Bobby Williams, Morton Clark; (3B) Bill Francis, Jim Taylor; (OF) Minnie Minoso, Jap Payne, Blaine Hall, Ted Strong, Ted Page, Vic Harris; (P) Jose Mendez, Laymon Yokely.

*Some players that weren't listed but could have been: (1B) Buck O'Neil, Red Moore, Steel Arm Davis, George Giles; (2B) Bonnie Serrell; (SS) Jake Stephens; (3B) Alec Radcliffe, Bobby Robinson; (OF) Jumbo Kimbro, Willard Brown, Bill Wright, Neil Robinson, Ducky Davenport; (C) Quincy Trouppe, Larry Brown, Buck Ewing, Pops Coleman; (P) Chet Brewer, Hilton Smith, Barney Brown, Ted Trent, Max Manning, Sug Cornelius, Harry Salmon, Barney Morris; (Mgr) Buck O'Neil, Double Duty Radcliffe, Quincy Trouppe.

[Andominus]

<starting pitcher – Vida Blue

bullpen - Smokey Joe Williams>

Sure you don't wanna reverse these?
How 'bout replacing Vida with Tiant, or add LSmith in short relief?

To be honest, I'm not that high on Vida; I just wanted to get a lefty starter in. Why I valued that over say short relief or other things I don't know lol. But yea these guys are studs, I guess lefty-righty stuff doesn't matter. I'd agree with switchin tiant and vida...but no lee smith lol

I do not differentiate between Afro-Americans and internationally-born blacks. But I do not impose my values on others. All are free to compose their teams as they see fit. My absence of moral judgment is deliberate.

Yea man, I hear you. I mean there are many Latinos of African descent who deny their African identity and blackness; it's a free world, so if a dark-skinned man says he's indio and not black, that's his prerogative. I guess my problem is just with people saying "Latinos can't be black because of their Latinoness." It is offensive to implicitly impose one's rigid American conception of race on others (for example, historically on most government forms one had to decide between checking the black box or the Hispanic box for race/ethnicity, as though they are distinct groupings). Furthermore, it negates Afro-Latino/a identity, and it precludes the possibility of the contributions of people of African descent to be recognized in the Hispanophone Caribbean and Latin America. Just looking at the history of Caribbean players in the US, it's just so clear black-latino divide isn't the reality - from the NY Cubans to Sammy Sosa saying "I'm a black man."

anyway just my thoughts but this is a baseball thread so ill leave it at that lol

[Bill Burgess]

Yea man, I hear you. I mean there are many Latinos of African descent who deny their African identity and blackness; it's a free world, so if a dark-skinned man says he's indio and not black, that's his prerogative. I guess my problem is just with people saying "Latinos can't be black because of their Latinoness." It is offensive to implicitly impose one's rigid American conception of race on others (for example, historically on most government forms one had to decide between checking the black box or the Hispanic box for race/ethnicity, as though they are distinct groupings). Furthermore, it negates Afro-Latino/a identity, and it precludes the possibility of the contributions of people of African descent to be recognized in the Hispanophone Caribbean and Latin America. Just looking at the history of Caribbean players in the US, it's just so clear black-latino divide isn't the reality - from the NY Cubans to Sammy Sosa saying "I'm a black man."
When I started this thread, I thought it might honor the black ballplayer. All of them. I was startled when some members felt it necessary to exclude the international black ballplayers. Even ridiculous to adopt such an exclusionary approach. But what could I do? Order them to include them?

I remember when I was a kid, and the politicians passed laws against discrimination, presumably to protect blacks and minorities from racism/segregation. However, even the best-intentioned laws can have unintended side-effects.

The Harlem-based Arthur Mitchell Ballet Company had to go out and recruit white/Asian ballet dancers. How awkward, since the company was founded to show that blacks can dance ballet. A Harlem-based tap dance group had to do the same thing. Silly, isn't it? Political correctness can often bite one in the butt.

[stejay]

C Josh Gibson
1B Ernie Banks
2B Rod Carew
3B Ray Dandridge
SS Ozzie Smith
RF Hank Aaron
LF Barry Bonds
OF Kirby Puckett
P Pedro Martinez
P Satchel paige
RP Mariano Rivera

B Team

C Biz Mackey
1B Eddie Murray
2B Jackie Robinson
3B Judy Johnson
SS Willie Wells
RF Reggie Jackson
LF Rickey Henderson
OF Ken Griffey jr
P Dwight Gooden
P Bill Foster
RP Smokey Joe Williams

[metrotheme]

I borrowed the format from another poster to save myself time and I added a few changes.

C--Josh Gibson, Roy Campanella
1B--Buck Leonard, Mule Suttles
2B--Martin Dihigo, Joe Morgan
3B--Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson
SS--Pop Lloyd, Willie Wells
OF--Oscar Charleston, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson, Cool Papa Bell, Barry Bonds
Starting pitcher--Satchel Paige, Smoky Joe Williams, Bob Gibson, Bullet Joe Rogan, Ray Brown
closer--Hilton Smith, Lee Smith
bullpen--Willie Foster, Leon Day, Doc Gooden, Vida Blue
manager--Buck O'Neil, Rube Foster

[Bill Burgess]

After 1.5 yrs. in mothballs, I'm pleased to see this thread get some play.

[Paul Wendt]

The forum name is "The Negro Leagues" and the racial/ethnic identity matters are inevitably intermingled with the meaning of that term.

Another consideration is that research and evaluation of play in the Negro Leagues, and writing about the Negro Leagues, is a special field. Some people feel at home (versed if not well-versed) listing the top outfielders of those leagues but lost comparing Cool Papa Bell with Willie Wilson, Tim Raines, or Devon White.

[baseballPAP]

Disappointing to see so many MLB players on these lists, and Willie McCovey taking a backseat to guys he clearly beats out, like Banks and Murray.

Anyway, my all-time, "anyone who's race would have kept them out of MLB in the 30's" team:

C-Josh Gibson/Roy Campanella
1B-Willie McCovey/Mule Suttles
2B-Joe Morgan/Rod Carew
3B-John Beckwith/Jud Wilson
SS-Pop Llyod/Barry Larkin
LF-Barry Bonds/Rickey Henderson
CF-Willie Mays/Oscar Charleston
RF-Hank Aaron/Frank Robinson
UT-Martin DiHigo/Dick Allen
SP-Pedro Martinez,Satchel Paige,Smokey Joe Williams,Bob Gibson/Juan Marichal,Fergie Jenkins,Hilton Smith,Willie Foster
RP-Mariano Rivera,Lee Smith/Joe Rogan,Rube Foster

Mostly MLB guys, true. BUT, the lack of concrete stats keeps me from rating NeLers overly high on my lists. If I had something more than a few numbers and a bunch of legends, some of these guys would be higher, and might very well knock some others off:Buck Leonard, Frank Grant, Cristobal Torreinte, Ray Dandridge, Cannonball Redding and several more. Also of note, if I had stuck to my own rules strictly, I'd have included Japanese players as well, and would have had Oh, Kaneda and Nagashima here for sure.

[BillOK]

........................A Team...........B team


Catcher............ J Gibson........... R. Campanella

1st base............M. Suttles.........F. Thomas

2nd base............J. Robinson........J. Morgan

3rd base.............J. Wilson..........J. Beckwith

SS.....................A. Rodriguez.....D. Moore

Left....................B. Bonds..........O. Charleston (Weak arm)

Center................T. Stearnes......W. Mays

Right..................C. Torrente.......H. Aaron

RHP....................B. Rogan...........S. Paige

LHP....................B. Foster...........N. Winters

Utility.................M. Dihigo............L. Salazar

Pinch hit'r............C. Smith............M. Ramerez

Pinch run'r............C.P. Bell...........R. Henderson

[Appling]

........................A Team...........B team


Catcher............ J Gibson........... R. Campanella

1st base............M. Suttles.........F. Thomas

2nd base............J. Robinson........J. Morgan

3rd base.............J. Wilson..........J. Beckwith

SS.....................A. Rodriguez.....D. Moore

Left....................B. Bonds..........O. Charleston (Weak arm)

Center................T. Stearnes......W. Mays

Right..................C. Torrente.......H. Aaron

RHP....................B. Rogan...........S. Paige

LHP....................B. Foster...........N. Winters

Utility.................M. Dihigo............L. Salazar

Pinch hit'r............C. Smith............M. Ramerez

Pinch run'r............C.P. Bell...........R. Henderson
I would rank most of your "B Team" ahead of the A team -- perhaps because I know only about their MLB performance. Hard to imagine any Negro Leagues player I would put ahead of: Frank Thomas; Joe Morgan; Willie Mays; or Hank Aaron.