Nomar a Cub???

[Kdub Red Sox Fan 4Life]

I was listening to WSCR 670 "the score", ( a Chicago sports/talk station ) last night on my way to work and heard yet another rumored trade involving Nomar. I must say it actually didn't sound THAT crazy. As you know most trade rumors are pretty goofy. :crazy

I'm curious to know what you think of it and if anyone else has heard it yet.

The proposed trade is a straight up 1 for 1. Nomar Garciaparra for Matt Clement. They are both FA's at the end of the year and would seem to help each club.

Your thoughts please.

[Kdub Red Sox Fan 4Life]

Well now it has actually happened. Nomar IS a Cub. I was hoping that they would be able to get pitching for him, but apparently this is the best deal they could make. Cabrera to play short and Mienkiewicz to play 1st.

The question is are they done?

So, what do we think of this trade.?

I personally will wait before I have an opinion. I will say however I am NOT at all surprised Nomar was traded. There was obviosly no way he could/would be re-signed, and it seems that he couldn't wait to leave given everything that has happened. Also, when it was reported that the Red Sox had told him he wouldn't be traded, and then in the last few days i saw that it was 99% likely that he'd be staying, I just had a feeling they would find a way to make a deal.

I, like most people, even Sox fans, maybe especially Sox fans, have learned not to believe a word that comes from Sox ownership or the media. I'll believe it when I see it.

So, goodbye Nomar :( and good luck. I wish it could have turned out differently.

[rudy]

Geez,

Even I can't believe that Nomah is no longer a Red Sox. I can't believe the trade that was made!

Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientsadfkjasdfad? You can't be happy with this trade, Red Sox fans, can you?

[Kdub Red Sox Fan 4Life]

No. Not happy. The more it sinks in the less I like it. :grouchy This was the best Theo could do? :confused:

I know the Sox' hands were tied to a point, in that they felt they had to trade him, but c'mon, this was the best they could do? Where's the pitching help??????????

Congratulations Theo and the rest of the Boston Red Sox front office. You may have just brought and end to the World Series drought...for the Cubs!

:grouchy :grouchy :grouchy

[rudy]

I'm still in shock. I can't take it.

I can only imaine what you guys are going through right now.

[The Dude]

If the Sawks miss the playoffs, Theo's gonna go into hiding like Bartman and never return.

[RogerRedSox]

Re: post 2 - I obviously wasn't thinking straight! I am actually shocked right now! I don't know what to write or think really. I can't belive it. I didn't think I'd see the day. Even though, in my darker moments, when he was swinging at EVERY first pitch, I thought we'd be better off without him I can't actually believe that Nomar isn't a Red Sox any more. Annie - please help us with some well-thought words.

[FlashGordon]

:eek: No starting pitching, eh? I've taken a quick look at Cabrera's fielding history. He's no upgrade. And batting? Don't ask. With Pokey on the DL, I don't think the Sox have done a damn thing to improve their situation up the middle. Menkawiecz (I'll check the spelling later) at 1st? That's a slight improvement, but does that mean either Ortiz or Millar are now done at 1st?

I have said earlier that I was giving Francona until the All-Star Break to prove he is a good manager and Theo until the trade deadline to show he's a solid GM. My mind is made up on Francona and I don't have a good feeling about Theo right now. It's more like he's made a trade because he thinks he has to.

[Ontarioguy]

I'm not a hardcore Red Sox fan but I do have a soft spot for them and here is what I see going on.

Last year you had a team that, was just as good and probably equal to the Yankees. The series could have gone either way. Instead of making one or 2 small fixer-uppers, the core of the team' starting by the core of the core, Nomar, is being dismantled. Doesn't seem that smart to me...

If I'm totaly wrong tell me, I don't mind, I want to learn...

One upgrade with Carbrera to Nomar is healthwise. Cabrera was something like 7 games away from setting the all-time consecutive Expos streak for games played. You will see him every day.

[Mattingly]

I heard this on my way home from work tonight -- almost ran off the road.

I've thought for some weeks now... First they gave Grady a rotten bullpen and no closer last year, giving him the yips about going to the 'pen, so he left Pedro in when he was done, and as their luck would have it, the Sox lost the ALCS. So they sack Grady, under whom the Sox really did play well, hire an absolute total incompetent to manage the team into a hole, then start hacking off the team's limbs one by one, starting with Nomar. I think that it's part of a big long-range plan to make to Sox miss the playoffs so they will be "justified" in blowing up the team, getting rid of ALL the big name FA's (you're next, Lowe, Tek and Pedro -- who will you all play for next year?) and start over almost from scratch.

They needed middle relief. They didn't need another 1Bman and sure as he** didn't need another shortstop.

Theo threw the season. I am just sick, SICK, SICK about this.
I thought they'd dropped the "bullpen by committee" thing around June or so last season. The Sox pen seemed ready to work the 8th and 9th, w/Embree and Timlin, I believe.

What I'm wondering, who's your SS now? Pokey's on the DL, and Gutierrez played today.

[cardinals03]

Imagine my situation.....I am a Cardinals fan as you can see, but what is not apparent is my favorite player is Nomaaaaah......hell I named my dog after him for crying out loud. Now he is a Chub?????? :eek: :eek: :eek: My baseball world has now imploded as my favorite player is now playing for the enemy. My only hope is that his ankle is still bad and he ends up on the DL (like most of the other Chubs) for the rest of the season. Then the Chubs don't have the money to resign him and the "rent-a-Nomaaaah" doesn't yield them anything as he signs with another team next year (I believe his contract is up then). Thank God I don't have to watch my beloved Cards play against him (unless it is the playoffs). If that happens, I'll stop watching baseball until next year.

[Mattingly]

Theo did very well in his first year and a half as GM, but this one really has me scratching my head. It does indeed seem kind of desperate. Trade Nomar no matter what you get for him. Which turned out to be not much.

Everyone said Theo was too young, and inexperienced to be the GM. He proved them wrong up until today.

I can just picture the Cubs GM shaking hands, giving high fives, and getting pats on the back and telling everyone that " it was like taking candy from a baby."
I heard some rumor that this was John Henry's idea. Nothing confirmed, just something I'm posting (Gammons-esque, perhaps) that it was supposed to be a deal regardless, in a "just get rid of him" manner.

[DODGER DEB]

I heard this on my way home from work tonight -- almost ran off the road.

I've thought for some weeks now... First they gave Grady a rotten bullpen and no closer last year, giving him the yips about going to the 'pen, so he left Pedro in when he was done, and as their luck would have it, the Sox lost the ALCS. So they sack Grady, under whom the Sox really did play well, hire an absolute total incompetent to manage the team into a hole, then start hacking off the team's limbs one by one, starting with Nomar. I think that it's part of a big long-range plan to make to Sox miss the playoffs so they will be "justified" in blowing up the team, getting rid of ALL the big name FA's (you're next, Lowe, Tek and Pedro -- who will you all play for next year?) and start over almost from scratch.

They needed middle relief. They didn't need another 1Bman and sure as he** didn't need another shortstop.

Theo threw the season. I am just sick, SICK, SICK about this.


Oh, Annie, I really FEEL for you! This trade is just AWFUL! I never thought they would do it, but it just goes to show what can happen when you have an obviously inept and "puppet" GM, with the strings being pulled by the Front Office. :evil :mad:

YOUR analogy of WHY it was done, may just be RIGHT ON! It's time for Boston Fans to make it known, loud and clear, to the MGMT, how THEY feel about it! :grouchy

Having said that, I think Nomar will do real well in Chicago. The fans there will love him....and Nomar just might be the Cubs ticket to the WS!

THIS ONE is going to "sting" for a long time to come.....

c.

[VTSoxFan]

I thought they'd dropped the "bullpen by committee" thing around June or so last season. The Sox pen seemed ready to work the 8th and 9th, w/Embree and Timlin, I believe.

What I'm wondering, who's your SS now? Pokey's on the DL, and Gutierrez played today.

Orlando Cabrera.

The bullpen was a total shambles all last year, at least until about september. Sauerbeck was worse than useless, Mendoza was ineffective, then hurt; Embree and Timlin were used till thier arms about fell off, and Kim was in and out of the pen.

[VTSoxFan]

Oh, Annie, I really FEEL for you! This trade is just AWFUL! I never thought they would do it, but it just goes to show what can happen when you have an obviously inept and "puppet" GM, with the strings being pulled by the Front Office. :evil :mad:

YOUR analogy of WHY it was done, may just be RIGHT ON! It's time for Boston Fans to make it known, loud and clear, to the MGMT, how THEY feel about it! :grouchy

Having said that, I think Nomar will do real well in Chicago. The fans there will love him....and Nomar just might be the Cubs ticket to the WS!

THIS ONE is going to "sting" for a long time to come.....

c.

Just another example of the Sox letting the best ones get away. I was talking once with a woman who hasn't watched a game since they let Pudge Fisk go. Now I know just how she feels. I hardly even care anymore. I've heard so many people say that their loyalty is to theuniform, not to the guys who wear it. But Nomah was FAMILY. He grew up in a baseball sense in Boston, and now he's been coldly traded like the card his picture is on.

I keep thinking of an epitaph I once read in a mossy old graveyard (yes, I know, he's not dead, but that doesn't seem to matter right now), which I'll paraphrase to better fit the situation:

"Be kind to him, Cubs; we had him such a short time, and you wll have him forever."

Maybe they won't have him forever... maybe, as he's a FA after the season, maybe the blimp will fall on Theo and we'll get a GM with a functioning brain and heart, and bring Nomah back home.

:(

[VTSoxFan]

Re: post 2 - I obviously wasn't thinking straight! I am actually shocked right now! I don't know what to write or think really. I can't belive it. I didn't think I'd see the day. Even though, in my darker moments, when he was swinging at EVERY first pitch, I thought we'd be better off without him I can't actually believe that Nomar isn't a Red Sox any more. Annie - please help us with some well-thought words.

Sorry, Roger.... I don't have any.

I agree fully with Flash Gordon and Kdub. The Sox got taken. The fans, as always, get the short end of the stick. I don't see any glorious ending in this.

[yellowdog]

I hated to see you guys lose Nomar. Its always tough to lose a franchise player who is a fan favorite as well. But if losing Nomar was inevitable, you still got a guy in Cabrera who is not exactly chopped liver. This trade doesn't mean your season is over. You still have a very good team. And while you have every right to to deeply hurt, bitter and disappointed, don't give up yet!

I've watched Cabrera for years and he has always impressed me. I would probably have rated him as the overall second best shortstop in the NL behind Renteria. He's no Nomar and never will be, but I think if you give this guy a chance, you'll be surprised how good he is.

[Biggerin]

I'm with YD here...

Look, I love nomar as much as the rest of you, I really do. What it really comes down to is the high chance that nomar was going to walk at the end of the season. The choices were to let him walk and have to lose say embry or someone in the post-season for a decent SS replacement, or send him out now and get something for him.

While I think middle relief is a major problem with this team, the defense was also. We needed a regular 1B that can play defense as well as get on base. We needed a 1B that can dig the balls out of the dirt, especially. McCarty can, but he's not an everyday player. Millar is hot and cold and ortiz isn't even close.

We also needed a SS to replace nomar, and from what i've read, cabrera isn't exactly crespo.

Do I like the trade? Of course not, I wanted nomar to be with the team for life. I just don't think that was going to happen and I'm glad we got some decent players in return.

Of course, working in a retirement home, I get callous to death, which is what something like this feels like, so maybe I just got over it faster than most of you, but I assure you, if you give it a chance, you'll see that the team overall may be better off in the long run.

[LP fan]

But Nomah was FAMILY. He grew up in a baseball sense in Boston, and now he's been coldly traded like the card his picture is on.



I wouldn't whine about it - thats business in baseball - he made it clear he wasn't happy there anymore - expos fans have been going through this for years - Larry Walker, Marquis Grissom, Pedro Martinez, and Vladdy ( who they got nothing in return for ) to name a few - life goes on and other players have to step it up -

give Cabrera a chance - he can steal bases, turns the double play well, makes good contact and gives a solid effort everyday - I think you guys will grow to like him. You had more than enough offense over there anyways

[LP fan]

sorry for the poor choice of words, but even the Sox announcers for the game today mentioned that it was odd that for a player that had so much 'adulation', that he was always troubled or down about something...
they implied that the feelings between player and fans were not mutual....
so, if you're the GM and the player wants out, why not try to improve something about your ballclub??? I don't think its a matter of 'giving up' on the player - now admittedly, I don't follow the Sox closely, but, these announcers must know something about whats going on.....the guy wanted out, and he's gone.

[mikey_s]

Don't belittle my sincere and heartfelt reaction to this as WHINING. I know as well as anyone how callous and calculated the business of baseball is, but this is only the latest in the long and terrible tradition of the Sox voluntarily giving up on their best players, and I'm sick of it. Don't diminish what I'm feeling and imply that I haven't the right to feel this way, because "it's just business." :mad:

...Annie annie annie..... welcome to MY world. This is your first time. Its difficult the first time. You are confused, hurt angry. You don't know hwether to cry or run somebody off the road.
It gets easier as economics and "the business of sport" take a stronger and stronger hold of the game we love. Take solace that you still have a team and you still have a chance.

Cabrerra will never be confused with Nomar at the plate but put in the right situation.......

[Ontarioguy]

This trade has hurt alot of people...

[Captaincaveman19]

All right, heres my take on the whole situation. First of all, Theo. I'll admit it, he did a great job last year, but I personally think it was a complete fluke. Can anyone explain how the hell a 20-something year old kid can really be QUALIFIED to be the GM of th Boston Red Sox??!! He's not, and he just proved it by making this idiotic trade.

Now, assuming that Nomar would NOT have resigned with the Sox during the off-season, and this was the only way we could get something in return for losing him, couldn't we have done a little better than Cabrera, Mientkiewitcz and Roberts? Nomar is one of the best shortstops ever to play the game, not to mention that he is possibly the popular sports figures in Boston's history.

What we did get in return for Nomar is......not good. We got a guy who is a major downgrade at shortstop, (Even though I will admit he is still pretty good) but still a downgrade, and two guys who are gonna be bench players. He was worth MUCH more than this.

In my opinion, Millar is by far the biggest problem we have. Almost ALL of our defensive problems have revolved around him. He is a pathetic outfielder and an atrocious 1st baseman, he would be a decent DH, but we already have Ortiz. What we now have is a couple guys who CAN play gold-glove 1st base and gold glove outfield in Roberts and Mientkiewitcz but you know what? FRANCONA DOSENT HAVE THE BALLS TO BENCH GUYS LIKE MILLAR AND KAPLER. So, even though we desperately need Roberts and Mientkiewitcz to bolster up our defense, they are only going to be bench players and their talent is going to be WASTED.

So, as a result, contrary to what Theo said yesterday about turning our biggest weakness(Defense) into a strength, it is going to continue to be just as pathetic as always. And on top of that, our offense is going to be much weaker without Nomar.

Anybody else agree with all of this?? Hopefully I'm completely wrong about
EVERTHING, but I really believe all of this

Nice going Theo!!!!

[mikey_s]

.............Now, assuming that Nomar would NOT have resigned with the Sox during the off-season, and this was the only way we could get something in return for losing him, couldn't we have done a little better than Cabrera, Mientkiewitcz and Roberts? Nomar is one of the best shortstops ever to play the game, not to mention that he is possibly the popular sports figures in Boston's history.


Would you have prefered a couple of draft choices?
Name 3 shortstops you would rather have before Cabrerra..


What we did get in return for Nomar is......not good. We got a guy who is a major downgrade at shortstop, (Even though I will admit he is still pretty good) but still a downgrade, and two guys who are gonna be bench players. He was worth MUCH more than this.


Only a major downgrade offensively.
Probably a defensive upgrade...
BTW. Mentkewitcz.... is not only a good fielder he has a decent bat (maybe not this year)

You guys at the top ($$$) gotta stop being so self-centered. This crap happens to us bottom feeders every freaking year... yet the first time you have to experience it you would think the bloody world had tilted!!!!

I agree you didn't get fair value. THATS LIFE in MLB 2004!!!!
Theo (idiot savant or not) had his hands tied. As did Minaya. When a player indicates that they WILL go FA they essentially castrate the GM. So YES Theo didn't get the max, YES you lost a favorite son (not a Guerrero though!!) but let Nomar share some of the blame. If he had signed the stoopid 17 Mil contract 18 months ago this thread doesn't exist.

Your love for Nomar has blinded you to the truth. This crappy trade was as much HIS doing as Theo's.

BTW. You got a couple of good players so don't run them down until you see them play for a season...

[VTSoxFan]

You're right, Caveman. Theo's hits have been far outweighed by his misses at this point. We also now have a totally spineless, brainless manager who doesn't know a bullpen from his left elbow.

It still astonishes me how many people choose to believe that Shaughnessy says, or Gammons, or any of the other talking heads who have an axe to grind, or ratings to boost or papers to sell, rather than believe the words that came from Nomar’s own mouth. He always said he wanted to stay. He said he wanted to play his entire career in Boston, and win for the fans here. He said Boston was his home. If anyone can dig up a recording of him saying he was tired of Boston and wanted to leave, then and only then will I believe it. Last year I wrote to Gordon Edes, and asked him, “Why don’t you ask Nomar, flat out, if he wants to stay in Boston?” and Edes told me “because he wouldn’t tell me the truth.” So we’re just supposed to go on believing the press, when they won’t even bother to ask the questions? Why should I believe what they say, over what Nomar himself said a hundred times?

I think they never even attempted to have serious, locked room, hours-long contract negotiations. They offered a contract last year; Nomar made a counter-offer, and prepared to haggle. Isn't that what is supposed to happen? Instead Theo said "forget it, too late," and broke off “negotiations”, if that’s what you want to call it.

People say that Nomar looked unhappy in the last year or so. How was he supposed to feel, knowing that as he did that as much as he would like to stay, the front office had no intention of even talking to him about it? If they had entered serious negotiations, I don’t doubt for a second that a deal could have been reached. A one- time, take-it-or-leave-it offer isn’t the way to go about things. If a player had made the same move, the world would call for his head on a platter, and justifiably so. But when management does the same thing… it’s still the player’s fault? :confused:

If we had to lose Nomar (and to my dying day I won't believe we had to), we should have gotten PITCHING, too.

Mikey, I have for years been sickened by the way Montreal has been treated like a farm team for the rest of baseball. I don’t deny you any of your anger or frustration. Baseball is run by thieves and con-men, and it ALWAYS the fans who lose out.

Like I said before, I think it's just part of a long range plan to make the team so pathetic that they'll blow up the entire roster and start over on the cheap, like Detroit.

[nybeantowner]

Its a shame, he will be sorely missed, but probably would be gone next year. Thank god he didnt go to "Georgie Porgie's" Evil Empire. Now we need pitching.

[Captaincaveman19]

Would you have preferred a couple of draft choices?
Name 3 shortstops you would rather have before Cabrerra.. Only a major downgrade offensively. Probably a defensive upgrade... BTW. Mentkewitcz.... is not only a good fielder he has a decent bat (maybe not this year)

All right mikey, I know you must love Cabrerra and I'm happy about getting him but he still is obviously a downgrade at shortstop. By the way I could easily name about 10 shortstops I would love to have over Cabrerra,(Not necessarily saying we had the chance to get all of these guys) But, besides the obvious one such as Nomar, A-Rod, Jeter, Tejada and Renteria, just off the top of my head, how about Rafael Furcal, Bobby Crosby , Kyliel Green or Michael Young? I'm perfectly happy with Cabrerra, just saying he's a downgrade.

Also, your right Mentkewitcz as well as Robberts are defensive upgrades, however, even though they should become everyday players, they won't because Francona just isn't going to bench anybody to give them the everyday jobs they deserve.

You guys at the top ($$$) gotta stop being so self-centered. This crap happens to us bottom feeders every freaking year... yet the first time you have to experience it you would think the bloody world had tilted!!!!

You know Mikey this is exactly why I'm so frustrated, maybe it is a little self-centered, but we are at the top as far as money goes, so theres no reason why this stuff should happen. If we have to trade Nomar, maybe we should think about getting a dependable middle reliever or set-up man, not a couple of guys that are going to strengthen our bench.

[mikey_s]

All right mikey, I know you must love Cabrerra and I'm happy about getting him but he still is obviously a downgrade at shortstop. By the way I could easily name about 10 shortstops I would love to have over Cabrerra,(Not necessarily saying we had the chance to get all of these guys) But, besides the obvious one such as Nomar, A-Rod, Jeter, Tejada and Renteria, just off the top of my head, how about Rafael Furcal, Bobby Crosby , Kyliel Green or Michael Young? I'm perfectly happy with Cabrerra, just saying he's a downgrade.

Also, your right Mentkewitcz as well as Robberts are defensive upgrades, however, even though they should become everyday players, they won't because Francona just isn't going to bench anybody to give them the everyday jobs they deserve.



You know Mikey this is exactly why I'm so frustrated, maybe it is a little self-centered, but we are at the top as far as money goes, so theres no reason why this stuff should happen. If we have to trade Nomar, maybe we should think about getting a dependable middle reliever or set-up man, not a couple of guys that are going to strengthen our bench.

Even Renteria is having a bad year (by his standards) as for Furcal, crosby or green.....not in the same class defensively...... Michael Young perhaps he has bveen very suprising but I can only judge by stats guys I haven't seen.

I have seen a LOT of Furcal and he simple isnot as good as everybody thinks, Greene I've seen a little and I have seen nothing of crosby just the things I read second hand.

The Boston on-field problems are their starting pitching. So if you can upgrade your starters at a reasonable price..... but if the defense is giving up 3 or more extra outs a game then upgrading your defense is "like" upgrading your pitching.

As for the economics stuff well that is going to have to work itself out. As a fan closer to the action than I this can't be new to you. The efforts to trade Manny and Nomar in the off-season the handling of Pedro's impending FA status, Variatek still isn't signed.... this can all lead very easily to the kind of shedding/rebuilding that anie was talking about.

[Captaincaveman19]

I agree with most of what you just said Mikey, except for what you said about starting pitching, our starting pitching is fine except for Lowe and our defense is not going to improve much because Millar is still going to be seeing a decent amount of playing time and Francona just dosent seem to like putting our best defensive team on the field.

So, judging by the way Francona likes to manage the team, our defense isn't going to improve much and the only way to improve the team is to get some dependable relievers. Once we get Williamson back he will be a big help, but the other two guys we depend on the most before getting to Foulke, Embree and Timlin have blown two consecutive games in which we had the lead going into the 7th and 8th inning. I know it wouldn't be easy to get many guys who can make much of a difference in the bullpen, but I think thats the only way that this team will get any better.

[deanchristopher]

From http://deans-list.net:

If Garciaparra's Cubs play the Red Sox in the World Series, it'll be the biggest story of the young sports century. And if Chicago wins it all at Boston's expense, the Bambino won't be the only one cursing Red Sox Nation...

You don't have to play eight seasons in Boston to know that the singular of Red Sox is Red Sox - unless you're Nomar. During his farewell interview, Garciaparra reflected, "If it was under my control, I'd still be wearing a red sock uniform."

The fashion-conscious shortstop went on to add, "They can take the shirt off my back, but they can't take away the memories." But since the botched A-Rod trade last winter, it seemed Nomar would have given the shirt off his back just to get out of Boston...

[VTSoxFan]

I agree with most of what you just said Mikey, except for what you said about starting pitching, our starting pitching is fine except for Lowe and our defense is not going to improve much because Millar is still going to be seeing a decent amount of playing time and Francona just dosent seem to like putting our best defensive team on the field.

So, judging by the way Francona likes to manage the team, our defense isn't going to improve much and the only way to improve the team is to get some dependable relievers. Once we get Williamson back he will be a big help, but the other two guys we depend on the most before getting to Foulke, Embree and Timlin have blown two consecutive games in which we had the lead going into the 7th and 8th inning. I know it wouldn't be easy to get many guys who can make much of a difference in the bullpen, but I think thats the only way that this team will get any better.

What we should have gotten in a fair trade was a decent manager.

[mikey_s]

What we should have gotten in a fair trade was a decent manager.


They are actually rarer than a good SP.

Look at all the questionable managers.

Larry Bowa - Phils
Jimy williams (former) - Astros
TF - Sox land
Robinson - Montreal
Art Howe - NYM


It is a rare commoditty and guys just get recycled....

You guys had a decent manager in Grady.... I wish we would have grabbed him in the off season... :(

[tdk1984]

I know this happened a month ago, but I've not had a chance to discuss it yet. I'm glad it happened. Nomar was stinking up the joint and obviously didn't want to be there, which was obviously hurting the team chemistry. At least we acquired Orlando Cabrera who's a top notch shortstop who was excited about playing for the BoSox. So we are much better off now. Bravo Theo!!!

[pesky6]

tdk, yous is one of the few posts in this thread that make sense. Sure, we all hated to lose Nomar, but it was pretty clear that after rejecting a 4-year, $60M contract, he wasn't coming back. What people forget was that the Red Sox didn't start pursuing ARod until after Nomar rejected that contract. If he really wanted to stay in Boston, he would have taken that offer.

People want proof that Nomar was unhappy in Boston, but let's face it--as much as we may dislike sportswriters, they are the ones who are closer to the players than any of us, so when they talk about other players on the Sox who didn't like him or that Nomar was too self-absorbed, I'm going to believe them over any of us.

Theo need to upgrade the defense, and he did just that. The Sox lead the majors in one-run losses, and that smacks of a need for defense. Sure, Cabrera and Mientkiewicz don't have the greatest bats, but their defense is arguably the best at their positions.

And let's talk about health. If I'm not mistaken, Nomar was quoted as wanting "to be ready for November." NOVEMBER!!! Obviously, he was going to go FA. And he's already missed time with the Cubs for his heel (and wrist, too, I think). His durability is almost as much in question as Pedro's.

Let's not also forget how well the Sox are playing since the trade. Maybe they would have done as well with him still here, but then again, maybe it's not a coincidence.

Despite all that, I do miss Nomar, but I'd rather have gotten something for him than have him leave and get a draft pick. I think Theo did the best he could given what he had to work with, IMHO.

[VTSoxFan]

If Nomar was unhappy, it wasn't because of his teammates, the fans, or being a member of the Red Sox. It was because the front office was operating in bad faith and never had any serious intention of resigning him, despite any lip service they may have given to the idea. I believe I read it someplace, or perhaps heard it on NESN, but Theo had told Nomar "don't worry, we're not going to trade you," and then turned right around and did trade him. They lied to him, and if they'd lie to him, who else are they lying to? What other players are they telling "we want you to stay forever!" while shoving them backward out the door? To my dying day I will not believe that Nomar wanted out of Boston -- same as Tek wants to stay, and Lowe, and Pedro, and Johnny... I wonder who's next to go.

I can hear people saying now "It's a business!" But it's a lot more than just a business. Thousands of people wouldn't have signed up for BBF if it was short for "Better Business Fever." Baseball is something way beyond a business and a game, and once in a while that should be taken into consideration.

Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted the team's playing so well, but I miss Nomar. He was practically family for more than eight years. His is not a presence one easily forgets. If the circumstances of his departure had been handled with more respect for what he did give the team for so long, then I would be more at ease with it. But I can't help but think the whole situation was mismanaged until the parting was inevitable, and the bad feelings on both sides were also inevitable. Nomar stopped trusting the front office, so they stopped trusting him, and after that... I suppose it was irreconcilable.

Unlike Pesky6, I don't trust the sportswriters and talking heads, and take every word they say with not just a grain, but a tablespoon of salt. They are in the business of playing on the fans' emotions in order to sell papers, boost ratings, etc. They are little more than gossip columnists, and their sly innuendos and stirring-up of trouble and doubt and suspicion just makes me ill. If Edes, Shaughnessy or Lobel said the sun rises in the east, I'd want to go and make damn sure of it myself before believing it. Instead of relying solely on what I read and hear as filtered through these guys, all of whom have an agenda, I watch the games, listen to the postgame interviews, and form my own opinions. No, I don't get all the dirt they dig up, but I think they make half of it up anyway, and inflate and distort what they do hear, so I don't need them.

None of this is meant to cast aspersions on Mientkiewicz or Cabrera. Both are fantastic players, and doing their best to bring this team to the World Series, and I'm glad they're playing for us. I just hope the front office treats them like respectable humans and not just lego blocks to snap off and replace on a whim.

[VTSoxFan]

Regarding the team's recent resurgence and fantastic record in August -- it's because the management is FINALLY endorsing and embracing the kind of baseball that for a hundred years has been the best kind -- small ball. Get em on, get em over, get em in. Steal, bunt, sacrifice. If they hadn't stubbornly clung to the slow and frustrating "bloop and a blast," station-to-station ball for months, then I have no doubt we'd be leading the East by a very comfortable margin, and it could have been done before The Trade, as the only one of the three new guys to be the archetypal "small-ball" player is Roberts, who hasn't played a whole lot. So the team isn't playing better BECAUSE of Nomar's departure; it's because three straight months of station-to-station, .500 ball finally drummed some sense into the Jamesian blockheads running things. They've finally realized that Runs Scored is a more impressive stat than OBP.

[Mattingly]

What we should have gotten in a fair trade was a decent manager.
The last time I'd heard of this, Sweet Lou wanted out of Seattle, so the M's picked up Randy Wynn from TB.

As Raco mentioned, and as I've said before, you folks already had a good manager, but f/one move which ended up biting him on the soft spot, he's gone.

[Mattingly]

Regarding the team's recent resurgence and fantastic record in August -- it's because the management is FINALLY endorsing and embracing the kind of baseball that for a hundred years has been the best kind -- small ball. Get em on, get em over, get em in. Steal, bunt, sacrifice. If they hadn't stubbornly clung to the slow and frustrating "bloop and a blast," station-to-station ball for months, then I have no doubt we'd be leading the East by a very comfortable margin, and it could have been done before The Trade, as the only one of the three new guys to be the archetypal "small-ball" player is Roberts, who hasn't played a whole lot. So the team isn't playing better BECAUSE of Nomar's departure; it's because three straight months of station-to-station, .500 ball finally drummed some sense into the Jamesian blockheads running things. They've finally realized that Runs Scored is a more impressive stat than OBP.
I should start taping some more Boston games, considering I've got MLB Extra Innings + VCR on two TV sets (but Tivo on only one unit).

Who's been the ones mostly bunting, stealing, double-steals and sacrificing? From what you've noticed, have most of the small ball runs been scored by hits, sac flies or the occasional squeeze?

Thanks. :)

[VTSoxFan]

I've noticed it from a lot of the guys -- Kapler laid down a beautiful sac bunt the other day, Bill Mueller stole a base (bringing his career total to something like 12), Johnny squaring to bunt more often, and of course Pokey can run, if he ever gets back from that ribcage injury.

It's been so frustrating to see so many runners left on base while the manager steadfastly refused to employ the sacrifice. They didn't even attempt a hit-and-run until the end of May, and as far as I've seen they haven't tried a squeeze play yet, though they did successfully squeeze a couple times last year. The one I remember best had Kapler scoring as Johnny bunted.

It's basically how the Angels have gotten it done, with a well-balanced team and a manager willing to take some risks, and give up an out to move the runners over, use the speedy guys to the best of their abilities, and not rely on the power hitters.

This all could and SHOULD have been done all year long! I guess someone finally realized that you can't play baseball with a calculator.

[pesky6]

VTSox, I will concede that it's a possibility that Nomar didn't want out of Boston, but can you honestly say that a 4-year, $60M offer is not reasonable? Say what you want, but if he really wanted to stay in Boston, if playing here really meant that much to him, don't you think he would have taken that deal?

BTW, Nomar has said that he wants to be a Cub, when just a month ago he wanted to be a "Red Sock" (as he put it). What can you believe?

[VTSoxFan]

I do honestly think he wanted to stay, and play and win for this team and these fans. I believe he entered into contract negotiations last year in good faith, doing business as it is always done, making a counter-proposal to the Sox's offer, and preparing to negotiate, and the Sox front office then did nothing. They never contacted him or his agent, and then after the season tried to orchestate that trade with Texas that would have made Nomar superfluous. They made a "take it or leave it" offer. If a player made such a proposal, the world would be calling for his head on a stick.

While I do agree that $60M is a more than acceptible sum, it was perfectly within Nomar's rights to make a counter-offer, to say, "Let's try this," and trust that the front office would negotiate in good faith. What big-name player doesn't negotiate? Who's to say they couldn't have worked out something less expensive? I read that before this season, Nomar's camp made an offer that was less expensive than the one the Sox offered last summer, and they were turned down flat. The front office, I believe, had no serious intention of resigning Nomar, since it seems to me that they went into it thinking this: "We'll make a handsome offer; when he counter-offers, we'll withdraw our offer, call him a money-grubber and show him the door." That's not a decent and trustworthy way to do business, whether in baseball or anywhere else, and isn't something that will engender trust in the other players who have to negotiate from now on.

Anyway, it's water under the bridge, and no good can come of getting worked into a lather over it again. The Sox are playing well, and Nomar seems to be settling well into his new team and new league. Good for him. He's out from under the muckraking eye of the Boston media, no longer being daily demonized by Shaughnessy and his ilk. He did a lot of good for us, for the team and the city, for many years, and I wish him all the best in the world.

(Except that big gold trophy, that is. ;) He can't have that.)

[burger eater]

I say it was a great trade... Nomar looks happy again as a Cub and he received a hero's welcome in Chicago plus the Red Sox are playing better than they've played all year. Maybe Nomar will have a Red Sock pitching to him in October... hopefully it'll be Sam Malone.
Cheers!

[cardinals03]

Even with the warm reception he has had at Chicago, I find it hard to believe that he will stay there after the year is over. I read somewhere before the trade was even made that he turned down the RedSox's offer because he ultimately wanted to go West. I still think that is his intentions (if that wasn't just a rumor) and I hope he does well where ever he ends up (as long as it is not with the Cubs :) ).

[Bump11]

Sure, the Red Sox did lose a fair chunk of offense. But they are inproved defensively, and that was their biggest weakness before the trade. Cabrera is playing as well as or better than Nomar on defense and Mientkiewicz, who was also acquired in that trade, has yet to commit an error and allows Millar's iron glove to come out of the lineup. The trade also allowed the to get Roberts who is providing valuable speed.

The Cubbies needed some offense-- and now they have an elite #3 hitter who can carry the tam along with Alou and Sosa. It worked out well both ways.

[SoxSon]

Hey all--
I'm new to this forum, and I wanted to say that I joined because after reading a lot of the posts, I felt like you all actually had discussion about baseball, and not just ego stuff, so thanks for providing that.

I wanted to say about this thread: Although I agree with pesky about Nomar and the trade, VTSoxFan is a good exampe of what true Red Sox fans are all about...faith, openness and integrity. You saw Nomar as the face of the team, and you are genuinely hurt by his absence. While I do think that there was no hope of resigning him after this year (and yes, I think it was on his end), I'm not sure there are a lot of fans out there that are still willing to see baseball as so much more than a business. You're so hurt because you care so much...good for you.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Maybe there will be another curse next to the Bambino's curse.

So probably the Cubs will win 23 World Series this century to get even with the Yankees.

[VTSoxFan]

Hey all--
I'm new to this forum, and I wanted to say that I joined because after reading a lot of the posts, I felt like you all actually had discussion about baseball, and not just ego stuff, so thanks for providing that.

I wanted to say about this thread: Although I agree with pesky about Nomar and the trade, VTSoxFan is a good exampe of what true Red Sox fans are all about...faith, openness and integrity. You saw Nomar as the face of the team, and you are genuinely hurt by his absence. While I do think that there was no hope of resigning him after this year (and yes, I think it was on his end), I'm not sure there are a lot of fans out there that are still willing to see baseball as so much more than a business. You're so hurt because you care so much...good for you.

Thanks, SoxSon... and welcome to the forums :)

I guess I was, and am, disillusioned by the way the business end of this Trade was orchestrated. I don't think it was done on the up-and-up, and that bugs me. I'm very very VERY happy it's working out for everybody, because I didn't expect it to; I'm not not one to curse the sunshine and wish for rain because I'm in a bad mood. I am beside myself at the caliber of play over the last month, and while I know the defense has been bolstered by the players acquired in The Trade, I think they could have gone on such an offensive tear even if it hadn't taken place. Either-Or, we'd be winning.

I do care... probably too much, because it's just a game, right? (HA! :rolleyes: )

[mikey_s]

Now here is a question for you.

Do you think the Sox should try and sign Cabrerra?

He turned down 5yrs for 30 Mil from the expos but that may have had more to do with the relocation issue.

[SoxSon]

To mikey: It makes no sense to try and sign Cabrera now. If he sucks wind in the postseason, good riddance; if he keeps playing like this, we'll win the World Series and he'll be begging to stay.

VTSoxFan: I think it's better that Nomar's gone (for everyone...actually, if you notice, players are starting to comment on it a little to Shaughnessy :sp?). However, you are absolutely right about the offense...I hope we all keep in mind the monster that was last year's lineup. The differences this year are Schlling, Foulke, MUCH tighter defense (therefore reinventing Lowe) and Francona's recent willingness to yank pitchers. For those that now deem Nomar as a "cancer," though, they really should look back to last year and rethink that conclusion.

[Kdub Red Sox Fan 4Life]

Now here is a question for you.

Do you think the Sox should try and sign Cabrerra?

He turned down 5yrs for 30 Mil from the expos but that may have had more to do with the relocation issue.

Yes they should try to resign him, but I'd like to see them wait until the season is over. Unless he would be agreeable to a reasonable contract, thus avoiding any sort of bidding war.

He's been hitting much better since getting comfortable in the Sox line-up, and is a gold glove caliber shortstop. The Sox could do alot worse.

I say sign him, but only if the price is right. There's a couple other guys I'd like to see them re-sign first :)

[burger eater]

Even with the warm reception he has had at Chicago, I find it hard to believe that he will stay there after the year is over. I read somewhere before the trade was even made that he turned down the RedSox's offer because he ultimately wanted to go West. I still think that is his intentions (if that wasn't just a rumor) and I hope he does well where ever he ends up (as long as it is not with the Cubs)

You still think those are his intentions? It's a rumor so far... you want to think that. I think Renteria's intentions are to sign with the Cubs if there's an opening at SS after the season.

[cardinals03]

You still think those are his intentions? It's a rumor so far... you want to think that. I think Renteria's intentions are to sign with the Cubs if there's an opening at SS after the season.

Yes I still think he is headed out west. And if Edgar does sign with the Cubs I would feel better if that happened rather than Nomar staying for a couple of reasons.

1.) I am a huge fan of Nomar and seeing him play for the Cubs right now is killing me :)

2.) Edgar versus Nomar is defense versus offense and I think I would rather see the Cubs aquire more defense than offense since that won't make a huge difference with thier current roster. Nomar is MVP caliber, Edgar is a good team player and great defender. Either way you upgrade from what you had at the beginning of the season, but the Cubs biggest issue this year has been health and pitching not living up to expectations. Edgar or Nomar won't help them in any of those categories.

[burger eater]

I think he's staying in Chicago and I think Renteria's staying in St. Louis.
Nomar wanted to be a Cub, so if you still want to be a fan of Nomar, you gotta be a fan of the Cubs... sorry. I like the Cardinals, especially Kline for flipping off Larussa.

[pesky6]

And all this time I thought Nomar went to the Cubs because Theo had traded him there. Sarcasm aside, Nomar had no control over where he was going. He didn't have a no-trade clause, either. And FWIW, I don't think Nomar will stay in Chicago, unless they pony up with some FAT cash. IMHO, he's heading west.

[E.Banks#14]

Any of you posters wish to take back your comments about the 2004 World Champion Red Sox?