Is Norm Cash the Most Underrated Player of All Time?

[leecemark]

--I got to thinking about Norm Cash after several recent threads had members advocating Roger Maris for the Hall of Fame. Cash's 1961 was just as fluky as Maris', but it was BETTER than Maris season. Cash was almost 100 points better in BA, over 100 points in OBP and over 40 points in Slugging. Cash OPS+ that season was 201 to Maris 167. Cash's season was the 48th all time in OPS+ and 8th best for the 50 year period between 1942 and 1992. The better seasons were 3 by Mantle, 2 by Williams and the best seasons of Brett and McCovey. Maris season was not one of the 200 best OPS+ recorded.
--Of course, Cash never approached those levels again, but he did have a very nice career. Although 1961 was a big offensive year, conditions shifted quickly in favor of pitchers. Cash played most of his career in the worst offensive conditions of the live ball era and still posted career numbers of 271/374/488 with 377 HR 1100+ RBI and 1000+ runs. For their careers there is really no comparison between Maris and Cash - Cash was far superior.
--Cash career OPS+ is 139, which ranks tied for 17th amoung players who played mostly in the same 50 year period mentioned above. The only men above him on that list not in the Hall of Fame are Dick Allen and Frank Howard. Cash had a longer career and was a better defensive player than either Allen or Howard. The man he is tied with is Reggie Jackson - who played longer and was, of course, better. Cash's career OPS+ is better than Hall of Fame firstbasemen Bill Terry, George Sisler, Jim Bottomley, George Kelly, France Chance, Eddie Murray, Orlando Cepeda and Tony Perez. He played longer than about half of them and hit more HR than all but Murray, Cepada and Perez - and the later 2 only beat him by 2.
--Cash's most similar player is Gil Hodges who is another marginal candidate. I actually think Cash's candidacy isn't that much different than Rapheal Palmeiro's. Both were amoung the best at their positions for a long time, but never clearly the very best (except for Cash in 1961). Palmeiro stayed good a little longer, but much of the difference in their numbers has more to do with conditions than talent.
--I'm certainly not advocating Cash as a Hall of Fame candidate at this point in our balloting. Obviously there are better players not yet elected - Killebrew, Mize, Murray and possibly Allen, Mattingly, Hodges, Cepada and Perez. However, I do think he is worthy of serious consideration when we get down to the second level of candidates. He was a much better player than he generally gets credit for the few times his name comes up here.

[dgarza]

Not THEE most undrrated player.

But using pure popualrity to the test, he only made 4 AllStar teams 61-66-71-72. He should have made 62 and not 72. I assumed he would have made more ALLSTAR games, but obviously I was wrong.

[ElHalo]

I'll grant you a couple things... Cash's 1961 season was MUCH better than Maris' 61 season (it's really not even close)... but he really had no other seasons even CLOSE to that one. He never even hit .290 any other year. He had a couple of other pretty good seasons, but I don't think they were as good as Maris' 60 or 62 seasons... he is underrated, but certainly not a HoF'er, and definitely not the most underrated player of all time.

My vote for the most underrated player of all time, by the way: Rogers Hornsby. You may think that's odd, but try this sometime: Go into a random sports bar, walk up to a group of guys watching a baseball game, and ask them if they know who Rogers Hornsby is. 9 times out of 10, they'll never have heard of him. Almost certainly the best right handed hitter of all time... and nobody's heard of him outside of the true, hardcore baseball fans. Every fan at least gives a spark of recognition for Honus Wagner, or Ty Cobb, or Babe Ruth. But Rogers? Just blank stares.

[dgarza]

I really want to say that Billy Williams is more underrated than Norm Cash.

[leecemark]

--I'm not sure people are really that ignorant of Rogers Hornsby. I can't imagine anyone who calls themself a baseball fan doesn't know who he is.
--While its true Cash never hit .290 after 1961, he hit over .280 four times in an era where that was more impressive than hitting .300 in many others - including today. To put his BA in better perspective, Cash was 7th in the AL in batting in 1966 with a .279 mark. He outhit the league by 20 or more points 6 times in the 60s - the league just wasn't hitting for average. That said, he was really more of a power hitter than a true BA guy and he came close to his 41 HR in 61 numerous times, although that remained his career high.

[Cougar]

Cash confessed to corking his bat throughout the 1961 season. Kinda helps explain the fluke, although '61 was fluky in a lot of ways, probably due to expansion and the new 162-game schedule.

I dunno. I know the '60's depressed statistics, but Cash was playing in a park that was congenial to lefties. Take away corky 1961, and he's Chili Davis with a first baseman's glove. (Actually, now that I look at it, Chili hit nearly 200 more doubles.)

I just can't get impressed. He's an All-Star, an all-time great Tiger...but that's it.

[ElHalo]

--I'm not sure people are really that ignorant of Rogers Hornsby. I can't imagine anyone who calls themself a baseball fan doesn't know who he is.

You'd be heartily surprised.

In the real, non-online world... I've never, ever, once, met a baseball fan who had heard of Rogers Hornsby before I told them about him. Not once.

One guy (who's an extraordinarily rabid Red Sox fan, and explained to me the theory behind Win Shares when I wasn't really clear on them), flat out REFUSED to believe that there had ever been a player who hit .400 with 40 homers in a season, and hadn't even peripherally heard of Hornsby. I had to actually show him Hornsby's sheet on baseballreference.com before he would believe that such a player existed.

[Brad Harris]

In the real, non-online world... I've never, ever, once, met a baseball fan who had heard of Rogers Hornsby before I told them about him. Not once.

This is more likely to be indicative of either (a) the frequency of your social outings; or (b) the amount of knowledge an average baseball "fan" in New York possesses; more than it would support your contention.

Out here in the midwest, I could walk into the local Piggly Wiggly and mention the name and I'd bet money at least one person who wouldn't consider themselves a baseball fan had heard the name in connection with the concept of "great baseball players".

[shlevine42]

ElHalo:

I'll agree that, for reasons passing understanding, Rogers Hornsby is not as familiar a name as Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Williams, DiMaggio.

But I'd suggest that ignorance of Hornsby is more a function of age than geography. That, and the intensity of one's interest in the game.

If the baseball "fans" you meet never heard of Hornsby, they are most likely under the age of 40. And they're just as likely to live in the mid-west as in New York.

Aside to Chancellor: Since you're such a strong proponent of fact-based arguments, please share with us the basis of your snide, but laughable comment about the knowledge possessed by the average New York baseball fan.

[westsidegrounds]

Agree that Rajah is better remembered in the Midwest, due to his association with the Cards, & later the Cubs (back when they were a real baseball team). He could hit anywhere, but that's where he made the biggest impression.

Dunno if this is what the C. meant, but there's definitely a degree of ignorance, if not bias, among many Easterners with regard to baseball in the Midwest. I know personally that many Bosox fans are shocked and bewildered by the concept that there's another team in the AL whose fans refer to them as "The Sox".

[ElHalo]

Going to agree with Shlevine and WestSide on a couple of points here...

First) I am 24 years old, and most of my friends are under 30. It might be different with a slightly older crowd. Second: very, very few of my friends share the same rabid interest in baseball that I do... they're fans of it, but they're mostly Mets fans, and the type of Mets fans who go to a game at Shea once every couple years or so to see how things are going.

Second) While I wouldn't call it an ignorance, there is a definite... East Coast bias amongst East Coast baseball fans. East Coast baseball fans give deserved credit to Chicago Cubs fans for being real, hardcore baseball fans... and basically no credit to the fans of any other team outside of the Northeast corridor. Baseball really is seen as a Northeast sport, and the concept of there being fans in other parts of the country who care about baseball is foreign to a lot of us. So we tend to pay less attention to teams that aren't in the Northeast Corridor, and the history of those teams. Not saying that I myself do that... but a lot of Northeasterners do.

To be fair though... I wouldn't call it entirely unreasonable to call baseball a "Northeast" sport. That's not to say there aren't vociferous and educated baseball fans in other parts of the country; there certainly are... but I wouldn't count on them being there in as great percentages as in the northeast.

Think of it this way: if were to roughly slice up the country, you could say that the midwest is football territory, the south is Nascar territory, the northeast is baseball country, and the west is basketball territory. That's not to say that there aren't rabid, die hard football fans in New York... there are, but not as many as there'd be in, say, Cleveland or Dallas (Oh yeah... for these purposes, Texas gets lumped in with the midwest. Don't ask me). And that's not to say that there aren't people who live and die with baseball teams on the west coast... there are... but in smaller percentages than in the Northeast.

[AG2004]

Rogers Hornsby doesn't come to mind when I think of "underrated." I'm convinced that the most underrated players tend to fall into one of two categories:

1) 19th-century ballplayers
2) Black ballplayers before integration, and especially before the East-West games were held.

I would think that Bullet Joe Rogan might be the most underrated player of all time. He was a pitcher with the Kansas City Monarchs during the 1920s. I've seen different W-L records for his Negro League appearances during that time, but they give a winning percentage above .700.

Did I mention that he played the outfield on days he wasn't pitching? His batting average is among the top ten in Black baseball history, and he was a consistent power hitter, leading his league in home runs at least once, and batting clean-up for a Monarchs team that regularly won pennants.

The only knock against him would be his short career, but his performance while he played was very impressive.

[leecemark]

--To be honest, my intent here wasn't to spark a discussion of underrated players so much as to give a plug to Stormin Norman. Guess you never know where a thread is going to go once you get it rolling.
--On the issue of corked bats, Cash actually said he used one on occasion throughout his career not just in 1961. Alot of good players had great years in that first expansion season, his was just the best. Alot of players have used corked bats too. There is a corked Babe Ruth bat on display at Cooperstown.
--Cash was a pretty fun loving guy. His best remembered stunt was taking a table leg to the plate instead of a bat late in a no-hitter Nolan Ryan was pitching against the Tigers. He might have had more years similar to 1961 if he had been a little more serious about the game, but it was just a game to him. He was my favorite Tiger as a kid though.

[dgarza]

if were to roughly slice up the country, you could say that the midwest is football territory, the south is Nascar territory, the northeast is baseball country, and the west is basketball territory. .

Wow. And which country is this?

[CaliforniaCajun]

--I got to thinking about Norm Cash after several recent threads had members advocating Roger Maris for the Hall of Fame. Cash's 1961 was just as fluky as Maris', but it was BETTER than Maris season. Cash was almost 100 points better in BA, over 100 points in OBP and over 40 points in Slugging. Cash OPS+ that season was 201 to Maris 167. Cash's season was the 48th all time in OPS+ and 8th best for the 50 year period between 1942 and 1992. The better seasons were 3 by Mantle, 2 by Williams and the best seasons of Brett and McCovey. Maris season was not one of the 200 best OPS+ recorded.
--Of course, Cash never approached those levels again, but he did have a very nice career. Although 1961 was a big offensive year, conditions shifted quickly in favor of pitchers. Cash played most of his career in the worst offensive conditions of the live ball era and still posted career numbers of 271/374/488 with 377 HR 1100+ RBI and 1000+ runs. For their careers there is really no comparison between Maris and Cash - Cash was far superior.
--Cash career OPS+ is 139, which ranks tied for 17th amoung players who played mostly in the same 50 year period mentioned above. The only men above him on that list not in the Hall of Fame are Dick Allen and Frank Howard. Cash had a longer career and was a better defensive player than either Allen or Howard. The man he is tied with is Reggie Jackson - who played longer and was, of course, better. Cash's career OPS+ is better than Hall of Fame firstbasemen Bill Terry, George Sisler, Jim Bottomley, George Kelly, France Chance, Eddie Murray, Orlando Cepeda and Tony Perez. He played longer than about half of them and hit more HR than all but Murray, Cepada and Perez - and the later 2 only beat him by 2.
--Cash's most similar player is Gil Hodges who is another marginal candidate. I actually think Cash's candidacy isn't that much different than Rapheal Palmeiro's. Both were amoung the best at their positions for a long time, but never clearly the very best (except for Cash in 1961). Palmeiro stayed good a little longer, but much of the difference in their numbers has more to do with conditions than talent.
--I'm certainly not advocating Cash as a Hall of Fame candidate at this point in our balloting. Obviously there are better players not yet elected - Killebrew, Mize, Murray and possibly Allen, Mattingly, Hodges, Cepada and Perez. However, I do think he is worthy of serious consideration when we get down to the second level of candidates. He was a much better player than he generally gets credit for the few times his name comes up here.

Hodges, no doubt. How about Carl Furillo, apparently the most forgotten Brooklyn Dodger star? Or Steve Garvey? Jim Kaat? Kaat doesn't think he belongs, but I do. Maury Wills? Not the greatest stats but he re-invented the running game and made baseball more pitching-defense oriented.

On a side note, I wish Bud Selig would deal with Pete Rose's reinstatement. It doesn't matter to me how he decides as much as it matters that he decides and gets this thing behind us. It's further evidence that baseball can't deal with its problems and the game has slipped in stature because of it. No one would have even thought of subordinating a baseball game to NFL football or college football when baseball reigned supreme, but they do, even when baseball is in postseason and the others are in regular season. The World Series takes a back seat to the Super Bowl because they play at night and kids aren't bringing portable radios to school any more.

[yellowdog]

...the south is Nascar territory

I wouldn't disagree that NASCAR is big in the south, but its no where close to being the BIGGEST sport. There are just as many people, including myself, that despise it as there are those who love it, maybe more.

College football is by far the biggest sport in the south. Nothing else is even close, including baseball and NeckCAR.

[ElHalo]

I wouldn't disagree that NASCAR is big in the south, but its no where close to being the BIGGEST sport. There are just as many people, including myself, that despise it as there are those who love it, maybe more.

College football is by far the biggest sport in the south. Nothing else is even close, including baseball and NeckCAR.

College football, huh? I'm a huge college football fan, but only because I'm a transplant from Big10 country... there aren't too many college football fans here in the NEast. And I'd figured Nascar would be the biggest sport in the South, but that was obviously just an educated guess. But up here... other than Syracuse, a middling NCAA at best, there just aren't any college football schools to get excited about. So nobody does.

But I'll tell you this one: When they say Nascar doesn't matter in NY, boy do they really mean it. I know a whole heck of a lot of sports fans... but not only do I not know a single person who's a Nascar "fan," I don't know a single person who's ever watched a single Nascar race... or a single person who could name as many as 4 drivers (Dale Earnhardt Jr., Jeff Gordon... I'm tapped out). As far as motorsports go, WRC and Formula 1 are both infinitely more popular here than Nascar... and neither of them are huge, mostly niche sports followed by car buffs and GranTurismo3 fans (of which there are many, of course).

But yeah, baseball pretty much reigns supreme in the Northeast... except here in the inner city of Manhattan, where basketball is bigger. Like I said, there are always regional differences on which sports dominate.

[four tool]

I'm from New England, Massachusetts actually, and I know that the NE fans are extremely provincial, but not just about baseball. One of our jokes concerns a terror attack on a large city, any city beyond New York. This attacks kills thousands. Headline in Boston Papers: 5 Harvard and MIT students die in Holocaust!

Many New England fans do not relaize that a) The Cubs have a longer WS drought than the Red Sox and b) so does the other Chicago team, also called Sox.
The Red sox don't even hold the AL record for longest drought, but to hear us, you'd think evey other team one at least one WS in the last 30 or so years.

[give_it_a_ride]

1. The West is basketball land. No doubt about it. I know many people in Northern Cal who can name 5 players on the lakers, kings, and even clippers, but the only player from the giants they know is Bonds. Even so, i recently heard this conversation between two people at the local Borders:

Teen 1: Did you hear Bonds passed Willie Mays? (keep in mind this conversation was about a week ago)

Teen 2: Who's Willie Mays?

Teen 1: Barry Bonds' grandpa! Duh!

Its kind of sad, actually.

2. I'm only 13, (hope this doesnt set off a lot of stereotypes) but I know a lot about Roger Hornsby. Of course, none of my friends who are "baseball fans" have heard of him, so I think either Roger or Stan the Man is the most underrated player in history. Stan had to have a "special vote" to be included in the All-Century Team, and like Rogah, none of my "baseball fan" friends have heard of him.

[dgarza]

1. The West is basketball land. No doubt about it.
uh..and...uh..Indy, folks

[santotohof]

Norm Cash and Rocky Colavito were peers I loved watching.Both were cool ,looked cool and could hit. I'd take Rocky though only because Cash always had Kaline next to him in the lineup.I think if either was playing today they'd be better respected because players have such an opportunity to be seen today........I heard a rumor that Cash wore a lined cap so as to not wear a helmet.Any truth? Noone had a gun like Colavito he could throw you out in Yankee from across the river at the Polo Grounds on one hop

[leecemark]

--Yes, Cash was one of, if not the, last players to not wear at batting helmet. He wore a protective liner in his cap. I agree his fun loving personality would make him a better known fan favorite today. I'd also say he was a somewhat better version of Fred McGriff in comparsion with his time. That would likely make him a 500 HR man if he'd played 30 years later. Just for the record, he was Kaline's protection in the lineup. Kaline usually batted third with Cash 4th for the 60s Tigers.

[santotohof]

I agree with you 100%. Besides it is always the luck of the draw,had Cash been the Yankee first sacker he'd be in the Hall today

[santotohof]

Ironically Rocky was Cash protection in 61. Rocky had his biggest season in 61 with 45 dingers 140 ribbies and a 303 avg. Sucked not being a Yankee that year!

[leecemark]

--People think of those '61 Yankees as one of the all time great offensive teams, but it was the Tigers who led the league in runs that year. Strangely enough it was not Mantle or Maris who was the difference between the teams (Cash and Colavito were a good match for them), but relief ace Luis Arroyo.

[santotohof]

Yogi,Elston and Boyer didn't hurt either

[CrewChief]

All this regionality b.s. about which sport reigns supreme where, is laughable. :dance

In the 1950's, when baseball returned to Milwuakee, it was almost the turning point in fan popularity in MLB. I believe that Braves fans set many records during that decade when it came to attendance. Growing up north of Milwaukee, I know many, many, rabid baseball fans. My former high school team was always going to state.

However, football is bigger in Wisconsin, due to the Packers of course. But this year, with the Brewers in the wild card chase, many fans have rekindled their love for the sport and the team.

Indiana is not a football state, it is primarily a basketball state and a baseball state.

[pretorius]

I think George Sisler, Nap Lajoie and Tris Speaker are way less known then Hornsby.

The most underrated player of all-time is Harry Heilmann. I base that on myself. I remember when I was about 10 or 11 and a huge baseball fan and I skimmed through an encylopedia and happened to notice some guy who played during the time of Ruth and Hornsby who just so happened to bat over 390 4 times including one of those years when he batted 403. I would guess that many have also not heard of Bill Terry but Heilmann is simply better then Terry. Except for these two I should think that anyone who truly says they are a baseball fan has heard of the other members of the post 1900 400 batting average club. Hornsby, Lajoie, Sisler, Cobb, Jackson and of course Williams are and should be known by anyone who says they are a baseball fan. Terry and Heilmann are largely forgotten and Heilmann was better then Terry. Heilmann has more RBI's then Mantle and Speaker....(while playing in much fewer games) and only Cobb, Hornsby, Jackson, Speaker and Williams have a higher lifetime average for a player that played most of his career after the 1900's.

Only three players in the 20th century batted 390 or better 4 times. Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby and Harry Heilmann.

[four tool]

Most underrated and/or unknown: Johnny Mize. Only 10 retired players have career averages of .300 and 30 HR and 100 BI/year:

Aaron
Dimaggio
Foxx
Gehrig
Greenburg
Mays
Mize
Ott
Ruth
Williams

Which one is the least known? Mize, he gets compared to Kiner because of HR but almost no one else for anything.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Most underrated and/or unknown: Johnny Mize. Only 10 retired players have career averages of .300 and 30 HR and 100 BI/year:

Aaron
Dimaggio
Foxx
Gehrig
Greenburg
Mays
Mize
Ott
Ruth
Williams

Which one is the least known? Mize, he gets compared to Kiner because of HR but almost no one else for anything.

Mize somehow slipped past the writer's ballot and had to wait for the Veteran's Committee to finally vote him in. This was after the selctions of Hack Wilson and Chuck Klein the previous couple years, players who might have had bigger individual seaons than Mize, but were not better players.

That is underrated. It means more than just being forgotten 70 years after you've played your last game.

[leecemark]

--Mize tends to get lost becaause he really had three separate careers; a high average, good power guy with the Cardinals, a home run machine with the Giants and a big bat off the bench for the Yankees. Too many people remember that last and least part of his career. Of course his career totals suffer from 3 years lost to WWII. Only Gehrig and Foxx were clearly better firstbasemen, although there are plenty of other contenders for that third spot.
--Heilman tends to get forgotten because he recorded those great averages when so many players were hitting for ridiculous BAs. What many don't realize is he was much better at it than anybody else from that period but Hornsby (and briefly Sisler) and also had decent power. The Tigers never won during his career and that hurts his legacy as well.

[TXRangerFan]

I'd kinda agree with Hornsby being the most under-rated. A lot of people have never even heard of him. He's definitely the most under-rated of the guys who have hit the most triple crowns, most 400% seasons, and have the second highest lifetime BA in MLB history.


As for the modern players...Rafael Palmeiro is by far the most under-rated.

Ask even a hard core baseball fan...who has had the best RBI season...Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Thomas, Bagwell or Palmeiro? 99% of the people will tell you Bonds, Bagwell or McGwire. And they will be wrong.

Ask that same fan who has put up the best RBI season by a LHB in the last 50 years? No one will say Palmeiro..and again they will be wrong.

Ask them who are the only players in AL history to hit 500 doubles and 500 homers all in the AL...Most will guess Ruth and Williams...no one will guess Palmeiro, or remember that he spent 3 years of his career in the NL before doing it.

Ask them to name the only two players in the last 25 years to break into the top 10 all time in Extra Base Hits...most will guest Bonds..No one will guess Palmeiro.

Ask them to name the all time best HR hitting combination over a 3 year period...most will guess Ruth and Gehrig...Mantle and Maris or even Canseco and McGwire...no one will guess Alex Rodriguez and Raffy Palmeiro and they will again be wrong.

It's definitely Palmeiro out of the modern players.

[santotohof]

I've always been a Raffy fan but your post is a real eye opener

[The Gashouse Gang]

I wouldn't say he's most underrated, but Willie McGee is definitely underrated.

Garret Anderson is the most underrated today.

[Bucarooni]

IMO, the most underrated player of all-time is Minnie Minoso.

[abacab]

I'm not even a Philly fan, but I think Mike Schmidt and Steve Carlton are both underrated. Schmidt is easily the best ever at his position, one of the top 20 players ever and maybe top 10, but you never hear him mentioned in the same sentence with Williams and Musial and Hornsby. Maybe you have to be dead or at least really old to get your props.

As for Carlton, I remember an article by Rob Neyer a few months ago when he compares Clemens to the greatest post-WWII pitchers. He compared him straight-up with Spahn, Seaver, Maddux, and Bob Gibson. Carlton wasn't even mentioned. He won 4 Cy Young Awards and well over 300 games and he wasn't even on the list?!

[Bucarooni]

I'm not even a Philly fan, but I think Mike Schmidt and Steve Carlton are both underrated. Schmidt is easily the best ever at his position, one of the top 20 players ever and maybe top 10, but you never hear him mentioned in the same sentence with Williams and Musial and Hornsby. Maybe you have to be dead or at least really old to get your props.

As for Carlton, I remember an article by Rob Neyer a few months ago when he compares Clemens to the greatest post-WWII pitchers. He compared him straight-up with Spahn, Seaver, Maddux, and Bob Gibson. Carlton wasn't even mentioned. He won 4 Cy Young Awards and well over 300 games and he wasn't even on the list?!

Third basemen typically get overlooked. The fact is, Ron Santo should be a lock for the Hall of Fame, and never got a decent sniff, so Schmidt really isn't even the most underrated player at his own position.

Can't speak for Neyer, but Carlton's biggest problem was his contentious relationship with the media, which always hurts when it comes to receiving recognition. Look how long it took for people to see how good Bonds was. He needed to hit 73 homers before people put away the ridiculous notion that Griffey was better than him.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I don't believe Norm Cash or Rogers Hornsby are the most underrated players of all time.

The most underrated player of all time, IMO, is Darrell Evans.

The most underrated HOFer of all time may be Hornsby, but I lean toward Stan Musial. People have forgotten just how great he was. He seems to have faded from the public view; he wasn't a New York superstar in what was the biggest New York era of baseball ever. Really, he was the only superstar of the early and mid-fifties, other than Williams and Spahn, that DIDN'T play in New York in the early and mid-fifties.

Hornsby has been devalued over the years, in part because of his disagreeable personality, in part because of the deification of Joe Morgan, and in part because his reputation as not being a "winning" player has come to the fore. Hornsby was once recognized as the greatest second baseman of all time, but that was in the sixties when people were in awe of his BA. Hornsby hit .358 lifetime, and did so with power, but for a guy who attained 2,930 career hits, his career was surprisingly short. His last season of full-time regular play was at age 33; he has 104 ABs at age 34, 357 ABs at age 35, and essentially retired at that point. He played in a few games every season after that until age 41, but it looks like he was just a player-manager who occasionally put himself in the game, in a pinch; he never had 100 ABs in a season after age 35.

The real reason Hornsby should have gone down in stock is just that; his surprisingly short career. He was on a pace to challenge Cobb's hit record, then he just seemed to fall apart. Young, too; on the Keltner List, one could not truly say that he was able to play long past his prime.

[four tool]

If Stan is underrated, it's because of the relative lack of HRs.

[538280]

in part because of the deification of Joe Morgan.

And what "deification" do you speak of? You know what's "deification"? People citing Rogers Hornsby's .358 BA over and over again.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

By a second baseman 76 points above league average? That's nothing to deificate about. I know that if that was Morgan, you'd be all over it, because I know you take sides.

[538280]

By a second baseman 76 points above league average? That's nothing to deificate about. I know that if that was Morgan, you'd be all over it, because I know you take sides.

Actually by your logic that would be something to deificate about. But, anyway, sorry, but BA means next to nothing and as a total offensive player Morgan is behind Hornsby by about 15-20%-despite being ahead the same as a defender, playing 20% more, and playing against tougher competition. I would not quote a high BA like that because BA as a singular element means nothing. If you take a player who hits .250/.350/.500, and another who hits .300/.350/.500, they're of essentially the exact same offensive value.

[Cougar]

Let's not deificate all over the English language, please.

The word you want to use is "deify"

[leecemark]

--Best laugh of the day!:laugh

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

Chris

Hornsby still outslugged and got on base better than Morgan. And though Morgan played in a stronger league, Hornsby was too special of a player, period.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Norm Cash has a career Offensive Winning Percentage of .707. This is HIGHLY impressive. An OWP of .700 is about where the level begins for a guy on the left end of the defensive spectrum becomes pretty much an unquestioned HOFer. Not necessarily a guy on the inner circle, but a guy who isn't going to hear a clamor to have his plaque ripped out.

If you look at the guys with higher OWPs than Cash that are NOT in the HOF, you will find (A) guys who don't have 10 years in the bigs, (B) active players, (C) guys with parts of 10 seasons in the bigs, but not 10 years of true full-time play, and (D) a few 19th century players. Once you get below .700, questions start to be asked, at least of the 1B/corner OF types. Even so, Cash is 62nd on the list; you have to get down to around 80th or so before guys with full length careers are being rejected for the HOF more than they are being inducted.

When you talk Keltner list stuff, Cash comes out surprisingly well. Cash was the best first baseman in the AL during the 1960s. There are reasons for this, the main one being that Harmon Killebrew didn't play at first for most of the decade, and had his best year at third base, but Cash's career OWP is .001 better than Killebrew's. The Tigers were perennial contenders in the sixties, and they would not have contended, and would not have won the 1968 AL pennant without Cash. While most players who have posted his career HR totals playing 1B are not in the HOF, every player with Cash's career OWP or higher and comparable career length IS in the HOF. Cash is not in the middle of this group, I grant you, but he IS at least over the borderline on the HOF side.

I don't understand why we're talking about Will Clark, Don Mattingly, John Olerud, or Jim Rice (especially Rice) while Norm Cash is outside the HOF. He's not the best player outside the Hall, but he's a whole lot better than guys who get their cases argued all the time. For all the hype here surrounding Tim Raines (granted, a much different type of player), Raines' OWP is only .665, not all that great for a guy whose defensive contribution is debatable; why Raines and not Cash? Cash has a case; it's long been ignored, but it has merit.

[philkid3]

This is more likely to be indicative of either (a) the frequency of your social outings; or (b) the amount of knowledge an average baseball "fan" in New York possesses; more than it would support your contention.

Out here in the midwest, I could walk into the local Piggly Wiggly and mention the name and I'd bet money at least one person who wouldn't consider themselves a baseball fan had heard the name in connection with the concept of "great baseball players".

Most sports fans I know at least know who Hornsby was and that he was a Cardinal who played second base. Outside of that not so much, but that's enough for me.

In my experience I'd say Honus Wagner is far more forgotten.

[philkid3]

Think of it this way: if were to roughly slice up the country, you could say that the midwest is football territory, the south is Nascar territory, the northeast is baseball country, and the west is basketball territory.

I agree with your general point, but the west isn't basketball country. Maybe more basketball county than other parts of the country (having never been to the midwest, I always considered that b-ball country).

This is more football country, primarily college.


I wouldn't disagree that NASCAR is big in the south, but its no where close to being the BIGGEST sport. There are just as many people, including myself, that despise it as there are those who love it, maybe more.

College football is by far the biggest sport in the south. Nothing else is even close, including baseball and NeckCAR.

Having also lived in the south, and having many friends and family from the south, I also agree with this. The south is definitely the area of the country that likes NASCAR, but it pales in comparison to Georgia, Auburn, Alabama, Florida, FSU, etc. Even the Southern Miss's of the world. This is sort've how I see the NBA as well. It's a very popular sport, but I've never considered it the most popular sport in any area of the country. I always just assumed people in the northeast managed to like it and that kept it going.


Come to think of it, of anywhere I've ever lived or am familiar with, it's football country. Whether it's NFL or NCAA varies, and what the second sport is varies, but it's football first. So if we want to make a map of "the regional sport that isn't football" we've got something (that's where you stick the south and NASCAR together).


As far as the northwest, I'm not really sure what our other sport would be. The sports that aren't football all seem to run together. I'd say baseball, but baseball honestly isn't much more popular than minor league hockey or soccer here (and, much as I don't like it, I think it's going to be soccer when Drew Carrey's team opens). Nothing is even close to football on any level, though.

[philkid3]

I'm from New England, Massachusetts actually, and I know that the NE fans are extremely provincial, but not just about baseball. One of our jokes concerns a terror attack on a large city, any city beyond New York. This attacks kills thousands. Headline in Boston Papers: 5 Harvard and MIT students die in Holocaust!

Many New England fans do not relaize that a) The Cubs have a longer WS drought than the Red Sox and b) so does the other Chicago team, also called Sox.
The Red sox don't even hold the AL record for longest drought, but to hear us, you'd think evey other team one at least one WS in the last 30 or so years.

I didn't realize this was a resurrected thread until I saw this. :laugh

[AG2004]

Norm Cash has a career Offensive Winning Percentage of .707. This is HIGHLY impressive. An OWP of .700 is about where the level begins for a guy on the left end of the defensive spectrum becomes pretty much an unquestioned HOFer. Not necessarily a guy on the inner circle, but a guy who isn't going to hear a clamor to have his plaque ripped out.

. . . .

I don't understand why we're talking about Will Clark, Don Mattingly, John Olerud, or Jim Rice (especially Rice) while Norm Cash is outside the HOF. He's not the best player outside the Hall, but he's a whole lot better than guys who get their cases argued all the time. For all the hype here surrounding Tim Raines (granted, a much different type of player), Raines' OWP is only .665, not all that great for a guy whose defensive contribution is debatable; why Raines and not Cash? Cash has a case; it's long been ignored, but it has merit.

I compiled the win shares measures for these people.

Will Clark 330 - 115 (44, 37, 34) - 168
Don Mattingly 263 - 95 (34, 32, 29) - 146
John Olerud 301 - 98 (37, 34, 27) - 130
Jim Rice 282 - 92 (36, 28, 28) - 127
Tim Raines 390 - 102 (36, 34, 32) - 162
Harmon Killebrew 371 - 105 (38, 34, 33) - 147

Norm Cash 315 - 93 (42, 27, 24) - 130

Also, Raines has over 2000 more PAs than Cash. Part of Cash's problem is that he only had three seasons with at least 600 PAs, and tended to miss significant numbers of games each season. When you don't play, you don't help your team any. OWP and OPS+ don't take the time a player spends on the bench into account, since they are rate stats. In contrast, the win shares method takes into account both quality of play and playing time, making it a more accurate measure of what one has done on the field.

If you were to rank the players by their second-best season, according to win shares, Cash would be last. If you were to rank them by their third-best season, Cash would be last by the win shares method. If you were to rank them by their fourth-best or fifth-best seasons, Cash would finish last either time. With the exception of 1961, Cash just didn't play like a Hall of Famer.

[leecemark]

--Cash's rates were boosted by his frequently being benched vs LHP. Stormin Norman was my favorite player as a kid (I started this thread many moons ago:blush:), but he wasn't quite a Hall of Famer. His counting stats were partly repressed by playing through the neo-deadball era, but also by his not playing everyday like you'd expect of a true superstar. As AG points out, this creates a significant discrepancy between how good he looks by OPS+ (or FB's new favorite toy - OWP) and by Win Shares.

[plask_stirlac]

Wouldn't Jim Gentile be more underrated? Less recognizable than Cash. For some reason he came up for good at 26, then mashed.

But for the real most underrated, probably Ken Singleton. I didn't even know he was African-American for the longest time, and I reviewed his numbers, drafted him for history teams, etc.

[Fuzzy Bear]

--Cash's rates were boosted by his frequently being benched vs LHP. Stormin Norman was my favorite player as a kid (I started this thread many moons ago:blush:), but he wasn't quite a Hall of Famer. His counting stats were partly repressed by playing through the neo-deadball era, but also by his not playing everyday like you'd expect of a true superstar. As AG points out, this creates a significant discrepancy between how good he looks by OPS+ (or FB's new favorite toy - OWP) and by Win Shares.

While it's true that Cash had a significant platoon differential, it's not true that he was a career "platoon player". Cash's low AB totals are a product of a very, very high walk rate and missing some games often with nagging injuries.

Comparing Cash to Jim Rice, for example: Cash had 77 percent of his ABs against RHP, Rice had 72 percent. Comparing Cash to Willie McCovey, McCovey has 75 percent of his ABs against RHP. Cash was something of a platoon player in 1960 and in his last years, when he began to take on more injuries, but this was NOT the case during the period 1961-71; Cash was a full-time player whose time out was due to injuries and not platooning.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Wouldn't Jim Gentile be more underrated? Less recognizable than Cash. For some reason he came up for good at 26, then mashed.

But for the real most underrated, probably Ken Singleton. I didn't even know he was African-American for the longest time, and I reviewed his numbers, drafted him for history teams, etc.

Gentile did not have a full career. He could have been a bigger star than he was, but there were several drawbacks:

(A) He was trapped behind Gil Hodges in the Dodger farm system; by the time Hodges faded; Gentile was traded to the Baltimore Orioles. Gentile spent some of his best years in the minors behind a Dodger icon whom he MIGHT have been better than during 1957-59.

(B) Gentile was often compared to Dick Stuart. This was unfair; Gentile was much better than Stuart, but Stuart had a longer career. He was viewed as a left/left slugger at a time when that was often denigrated.

(C) Gentile appears to have turned out to be a young player with old players skills who faded early.

Had Gentile taken Hodges' place in 1957 and been the Dodger first baseman in the sixties, he would have been a bigger star. He probably wouldn't have been a HOFer, but who knows; he may have played longer, he would have been associated with the Dodger teams that won championships, and the Dodgers may have won MORE championships with Gentile. (Gentile was a better offensive player than Ron Fairly and Wes Parker, Hodges' long-term successors at 1B.) Gentile may have been the Los Angeles Gil Hodges; a star and a near-but-not-quite HOFer. Maybe more; Gentile had a higher career OWP than Hodges (but it was in a shorter career, and the sixties would have supressed his counting numbers). That's a coulda, mighta. It didn't happen for Gentile, so . . .

[plask_stirlac]

Wow that's a lot about Gentile, I was just saying he's more unknown than Cash and the lenth of their careers isn't enough for the difference.

[Brad Harris]

Cash is a legitimate candidate who is frequently overlooked. With the results of the latest BBWAA election though, how can there be any doubt that Tim Raines is the most underrated player of All Time?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Cash is a legitimate candidate who is frequently overlooked. With the results of the latest BBWAA election though, how can there be any doubt that Tim Raines is the most underrated player of All Time?

I might agree. I'm not sure. Cash does have a higher OWP, but Raines had a longer career at the MLB level.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Yeah, Cash is underrated. He had a phenominal 1961 and plenty of other very good seasons. He played in a weak offensive era and was a colorful character and fan favorite, so I'm surprised he doesn't get talked about more as a HOF snub. I think he was better than Gil Hodges, but he doesn't get as much hype. I don't think I'd vote for either of them, but Cash's case is certainly worth considering.

Someone mentioned something about the average fan not having heard of Rogers Hornsby. I know what you mean, but what about Al Simmons? NOBODY has heard of that guy and he was a monster of a hitter. He wasn't quite a Hornsby, but he's nowhere near as well-known. I'd consider Simmons one of the most underrated players ever.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Yeah, Cash is underrated. He had a phenominal 1961 and plenty of other very good seasons. He played in a weak offensive era and was a colorful character and fan favorite, so I'm surprised he doesn't get talked about more as a HOF snub. I think he was better than Gil Hodges, but he doesn't get as much hype. I don't think I'd vote for either of them, but Cash's case is certainly worth considering.

Someone mentioned something about the average fan not having heard of Rogers Hornsby. I know what you mean, but what about Al Simmons? NOBODY has heard of that guy and he was a monster of a hitter. He wasn't quite a Hornsby, but he's nowhere near as well-known. I'd consider Simmons one of the most underrated players ever.

It is clear as glass that Cash was superior to Hodges, and, yet, Hodges came closer to the HOF without getting in more than any other player. (Jim Rice will top Hodges if he misses next year.)