Defensive All-Time All-Star Teams

[Bill Burgess]

I'd like to post my Defensive All-Time All-Star Teams.

A Team

1B-------Hal Chase, (on an honest day)
2B-------Joe Gordon (40's Yankees)
SS-------Honus Wagner
3B-------Billy Cox
LF-------Richie Ashburn
CF-------Tris Speaker
RF-------Jimmie McAleer
C--------Buck Ewing/Charlie Bennett
P--------Warren Spahn

B Team

1B-------George Sisler
2B-------Eddie Collins
SS-------Pops Lloyd
3B-------Brooks Robinson
LF-------Oscar Charleston
CF-------Willie Mays
RF-------Bill Lange
C--------Johnny Bench/Biz Mackey
P--------Walter Johnson

Honorable Mentions to Bill Mazeroski(2B), Andrew Jones(OF), Torri Hunter(OF), Mickey Cochrane(C), Ossie Bluege(3B), Glenn Wright(SS), Mike Schmidt(3B), Charlie Gehringer(2B), Bobby Wallace(SS), Jim Edmonds (OF), Ivan (Pudge) Rodriquez (C), Jimmy Sheckard(OF), Herman Long(SS).
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Form Chart:

Catchers:

Pre-1910: Jack Clements, "Deacon" Jim McGuire, Red Charlie Dooin, Buck Ewing, Mike "King" Kelly, Charlie Bennett, Charles "Pop" Snyder, Marty Bergen, Bill Bergen, Johnny Kling, Roger Bresnahan, Chief Zimmer, Duke Farrell, John Warner, Wilbert Robinson, Doc Bushong,
Moses Fleetwood Walker.

1910-60: Hank Severeid, Bob O'Farrell, Bill Killefer, Ray Schalk, Wally Schang, Johnny Bassler, Walker Cooper, Sherman Lollar, Jim Hegan, Jimmy Archer, Muddy Ruel, Steve O'Neil, Billy Sullivan, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Gabby Hartnett, Al Lopez, Ernie Lombardi, Walker Cooper, Rick Ferrell, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Del Crandall, Smokey Burgess.

1960-present: Ted Simmons, Lance Parrish, Jim Sundberg, Jerry Grote, Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, Carlton Fisk, Thurman Munson, Mike Piazza, Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez, Bill Freehan, Benito Santiago, Charles Johnson, Bob Boone

Negro Leagues:
Josh Gibson (1929-1946)
Louis "Santop" Loftin (1909-26)
Bruce Petway (1906-25);
Frank Duncan (1920-48)
Larry Brown (1919-49)
James Raleigh "Biz" Mackey (1920-47, '50)

1B -

Pre-1900: Joe Start, Roger Connor, Charles Comiskey, Wes Fisler, Dan Brouthers, Jake Beckley, Fred Tenney, Ed Konetchy, Jake Daubert, Adrian "Cap" Anson, Dave Orr, Henry Larkin, Cal McVey

Frank Chance, Stuffy McInnis, Jim Bottomley, Jack Fournier, Lu Blue, Hal Chase, George Sisler, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Hank Greenberg, Bill Terry, Johnny Mize, Ted Kluszewski, Gil Hodges, Vic Power, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Harmon Killebrew, Wes Parker, Steve Garvey, Cecil Cooper, Cecil Fielder, Kent Hrbek, Tony Perez, Keith Hernandez, Eddie Murray, Don Mattingly, Will Clark, Mark McGwire, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, Carlos Delgado, Jason Giambi, JT Snow, Todd Helton, Darien Erstad, Albert Pujols; Negro Leagues: Buck Leonard, Ben Taylor.

2B

Pre-1900: Ross Barnes, Jack Burdock, Fred Pfeffer, Cupid Childs, Bid McPhee, Jimmy Williams, Fred Dunlap, Hardy Richardson, Sol White, Frank Grant, Bud Fowler, Gene DeMontreville.

Larry Doyle, Bobby Lowe, Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby, George Cutshaw, Charlie Gehringer, Frankie Frisch, Jackie Robinson, Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Nellie Fox, Bobby Grich, Bill Mazeroski, Red Schoendiest, Ryne Sandberg, Robbie Alomar, Craig Biggio, Alfonso Soriano; Negro Leagues: Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss

SS

Pre-1900: George Wright, Ed McKean, John Montgomery Ward, Jack Glasscock, Herman Long, Hughie Jennings, George Davis, Bill Dahlen, Tommy Corcoran, Freddie Parent, Dickey Pearce

Honus Wagner, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, George McBride, Roger Peckinpaugh, Everett Scott, Joe Sewell, Luke Appling, Art Fletcher, Bill Dahlen, Donie Bush, Rabbit Maranville, Glenn Wright, Arky Vaughn, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Marty Marion, Pee Wee Reese, Phil Rizzuto, Luis Aparicio, Ernie Banks, Maury Wills, Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, Alan Trammell, Dave Concepcion, Barry Larkin, Omar Vizquel, Julio Franco, Nomar Garciaparra, Derek Jeter, Alexander Rodriguez; Negro Leagues: John "Pop" Lloyd, John Beckwith, Willie Wells.

3B:

Pre-1900:
Ezra Sutton, Levi Meyerle, Bob Ferguson, Arlie Latham, Ned Williamson, John McGraw, Jimmie Collins, Bill Nash, Jim Davis, Lave Cross, Denny Lyons, Deacon White, Jerry Denny, Bill Joyce, Levi Meyerle

Harry Steinfelft, Tommy Leach, Frank Baker, Bill Bradley, Willie Kamm, Ossie Bluege, Pie Traynor, Billy Cox, Eddie Mathews, Ken Boyer, Clete Boyer, Ron Santo, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Wade Boggs, Bill Madlock, Paul Molitor, Eric Chavez, Scott Rolen. Negro Leagues: Judy Johnson, Ray Dandridge, Oliver Marcell

LF

Pre-1900: Harry Stovey, Ed Delahanty, Jesse Burkett, Jim O'Rourke, Tip O'Neill, Abner Dalrymple

Sherry Magee, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson, Carl Yasztrzemski, Joe Jackson, Al Simmons, Billy Williams, Ralph Kiner, Fred Clarke, Zack Wheat, Jimmy Sheckard, Duffy Lewis, Joe "Ducky" Medwick, Willie Stargell, Manny Ramirez.
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CF:

Pre-1900: Jimmie McAleer, Bill Lange, Jimmy Ryan, George Gore, Harry Wright, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, Tom Brown, George Van Haltren, Dummy Hoy, Billy Hamilton, Hugh Duffy, Ollie Pickering, Pete Browning, Curt Welch, Dickey Johnson, Mike Griffin

1900-1940: Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Eddie Roush, Max Carey, Clyde Milan, Clarence "Ginger" Beaumont, Oscar "Happy" Felsch, Chick Stahl, Johnny Mostil, Benny Kauff, Lloyd Waner, Earl Averill, Hack Wilson, Wally Berger, Earle Combs.

1940-1970: Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Duke Snider, Richie Ashburn, Pete Reiser, Larry Doby, Jim Piersall, Jim Landis, Bill Virdon, Vada Pinson, Jimmy Wynn, Bobby Thompson, Curt Flood.

1970-present: Ken Griffey, Jr., Brett Butler, Andruw Jones, Tori Hunter, Mike Cameron, Jim Edmonds, Mark Kotsay, Dale Murphy, Kirby Puckett, Bernie Williams, Carlos Beltran, Johnny Damon, Fred Lynn, Cesar Cedeno, Steve Finley, Andre Dawson, Al Oliver, Bobby Murcer, and Eric Davis, Willie McGee, Willie Wilson, Mickey Rivers and Kenny Lofton.

Negro Leaguers: Oscar Charleston, "Cool Papa" Bell, Christobal Carlos Torriente, Spot Poles, Pete Hill, Clint "Hawk" Thomas, Chino Smith, Martin Dihigo
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RF -

Pre-1900: Willie Keeler, Jimmy Fogarty, Sam Thompson, Mike Tiernan, Oyster Burns

Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=aaronha01), Frank Robinson, Mel Ott, Pete Rose, Tony Gwynn, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente, Paul Waner, Sam Crawford, Al Kaline, Dave Winfield, Harry Heilmann, Tony Oliva, Vlad Guerrero, Gavvy Cravath, Chuck Klein, Harry Hooper, Roger Maris, Dale Murphy, Sammie Sosa, Ross Youngs, Daryl Strawberry, Larry Walker.

Bill Burgess

[Etheridge2]

My All Time Team


A-Team
1B Keith Hernandez
2B Ryne Sandberg
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Ozzie Smith
RF Roberto Clemente
CF Andruw Jones
LF Carl Yastremski
C Ivan Rodriquez
P Jim Kaat


B-Team (I know I took 3 CFers so shoot me)
1B JT Snow
2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Mike Schmidt
SS Omar Vizquel
RF Curt Flood
CF Jim Edmonds
LF Willie Mays
C Mickey Cochrane
P Warren Spahn


Honorable Mention- Greg Maddux, Robbie Alomar, Walter Johnson, Tris Speaker, Andre Dawson, Larry Walker, Barry Bonds, Johnny Bench, Alex Rodriquez, Eddie Collins, George Sisler, Torii Hunter, Al Kaline

[AutoMick]

Originally posted by william_burgess@usa.net
I got interested in baseball first in collecting cards, and then CYO little league from 4th-7th grade. Dad told me about Ty and Walter Johnson, and I read his autobio by Stump and was a fan for life. Cobb's been my primary research subject ever since, and I've went through Sporting News and Baseball Magazine, specificly to find a "jury pool" of prominent credible BB authorities to "prove" Cobb was what Dad had told me. And now these guys are saying "witnesses" don't count! What balls these kids have! Excuse my Greek.

Please post more often. We need more seasoning in this place. This kitchen gets real hot sometimes.

Bill

lol. I agree with your sentiments. I started collecting baseball cards and playing a spinner game with my neighbor who was a few years older than me, I was 9 and he 11. The game was Mel Allen's All-Star baseball. Are you familiar with it? It had the discs that had 1 was a homerun, 2 was a groundout, 3 etc. Well anyway the percentages for each category started teaching me things like Ty Cobb stole bases and had triples...... Babe Ruth had the biggest area with the number 1 in it. So I got to learn who hit for what ........ and the black discs were current playes and the red hall of famers. This was the starting of my education about the great players of the past..... was a great game and a great teacher as well.

One last thing..... I can usually take either side of the argument and bring some credibility to it..... devil's advocate or whatever, but the truth of the matter is that so many of these great players both today and yesterday had their flaws as well as their talents. Afterall, where else can a guy make an out 7 out of 10 times and still be classified as a superstar. If only real life was that easy with the percentages...... However hitting the major league fastball or curveball is still the hardest thing to do in all sports and it's too bad that people can't sit back and realize that our game has no clock..... it takes whatever it needs and the defense holds the ball. lol. What a great idea to be able to sit around the tv, the bar, or even at the park and be able to casually talk to each other about what's going on during a game or to even reminice about the past players, plays and games.

Biggest mistake I see with baseball is when it's broadcasters go outside their own game and have to talk about football, basketball, golf, Notre Dame, or whatever..... I mean with a 100+ years of material....... how can you run out of it...... broadcast the game like you have a flame in your heart like the one when you met your wife for the first time that burns with love...... I'll have 30 years in May and my love of the game of baseball has a burn that almost equals the love of St. Sherry....... that's what they call her for having put up with me for over 30 years! lol.

[Eddie Collins]

C: Ivan Rodriguez
1B: Bill White
2B: Maz
SS: Ozzie
3B: Brooks
LF: Lewis
CF: Speaker
RF: Clemente
P: Jack Chesbro
1B: Bill Buckner
RF: Fred Merkle
LF:Fred Snodgrass
P:Jim Kaat

Honorable mentions:
C:Bench
1B: Chase, Herandez
2B: Eddie Collins
SS: Wagner, Maranville, Dhalen
3B: Schmidt
OF: Mays, Ashburn, Hooper, Andruw Jones, Jim Edmonds

[Bill Burgess]

I consider Honus Wagner the greatest fielder who ever lived. He played and starred at several position before he turned to SS at the age of 27.

He had played 1B & 3B without problems, and was thought of as the greatest player at those positions when he played there.

Ironicly, strickly speaking, Hans may not have been the last word as a defensive SS. Herman Long, Bobby Wallace and Glenn Wright were thought of as his equal or even his superiors as a defensive SS. But when you consider that Honus fielded other positions, and even pitched 2 games, and very well too, I give the all-around defensive title to Honus Wagner, without anyone else too close. One must also always consider Hughie Jennings/Ozzie Smith whenever we discuss defensive SSs. Marty Marion/Rabbit Maranville also, supposedly.

Bresnahan, Buck Ewing, and Mike Kelly also played multi-positions, and all of them well, supposedly.

Bill Burgess

[leecemark]

I don't know if these guys were actually the best glovemen of all time or not, but they were good enough to build careers with glove alone:

C: Ray Schalk
1B: Charley Grimm
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: Aureilio Rodreguiz
SS: Rabbit Maranville
LF: Sammy Byrd (aka Babe Ruth's legs) - no real defense first LFers
CF: Paul Blair
RF: Harry Hooper

Four of them made the Hall despite being below average hitters.

[Bill Burgess]

Leecemark contributed this.

--I don't think I'd fight to the death for these exact rankings, although Grich and Maz on top and Soriano and Carew at the bottom I'm pretty sure of. Not sure why Grich made the modern list, while Morgan and Carew are old timers though. They played at almost exactly the same times.
--Modern: Grich, Sandberg, Alomar, Biggio, Kent, Soriano
--Classic: Maz, McPhee, Fox, Robinson, Gehringer, Collins, Lajoie, Morgan, Evers, Hornsby, Carew.
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RuthMayBond contributed this.

Grich, Sandberg and Biggio are pretty much neck-in-neck (maybe I could break my tie if I decided my undecided hypothetical Gold Gloves). Then Alomar, Kent and Soriano.

Maz, McPhee, Fox & Collins are so awesome it's hard to pick among them. Slightly below that would be Lajoie, then Gehringer. Then you've got the merely good or worse, with possibly Carew (not sure what to do with his split time), Morgan, Evers (overrated), JRobinson (split time again), Frisch and Hornsby. Flame away

[Bill Burgess]

Ty might find it hard to crack the top 20 OF defensively, despite the superb work he did.

I'd rate the following OFers either above him or equal to him.
Speaker, Lewis, Hooper, Milan, Mostil, Lange, McAleer, Mays, Clemente, Ashburn, A. Jones, T. Hunter, Mantle (young), DiMag, Carey, Roush, Dom DiMag, Felsch, Blair. Probably many more.

But I think that there is a tendency to assume that ANY OF who was any good at all was better defensively than Ty Cobb. And that's a lot of hogwash. Cobb was rated with Speaker up to around 1912 defensively. It was only through time that it became apparent that Spoke was such a gem. And that quote is from Tris' best friend & roommate, Joe Wood.

There were good fielding OFs who I think were not up to Ty in the gardens; Joe Jackson, Musial, Yaz, Simmons, Keeler, Wheat, Bob Meusel, Earl Combs (despite his poor arm), Aaron, Ott, Kaline, Maris. Ty also led his league in OF categories. His main virtues were he could play shallow and cut down on Texas leaguers, and go back for them, and had good sure, soft hands. He was very good on assists & DPs. He also enjoyed suckering runners into thinking he couldn't make the play, and then cut them down when they ran.
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Ty occasionally led his league in OF defensive categories. I admit that his main virtue were his accumulative counting stats, however.

Ty led the league's RF in assists from 1907-09.
In 1910, led the league in putouts & DPs.
In 1923, age 37, led league in DPs, FA, 2nd in POs.
Range Factor: In 70% of his games, he was usually well above ave.
His work was definite GG-caliber in at least 4 & possibly 8 seasons.
(These are the perceptions of Craig R. Wright in The Diamond Appraised, by Craig R. Wright & Tom House, 1989, pp. 80.

Craig is touted as a world class statman & theorist. He was then Director of ML Operatins for Sports Team Analysis & Tracking Systems (STATS). He wrote part of The Great American baseball Stat Book, for which he also served as essay editor.

So, the bottom line, RMB, is that some very well-qualified statmen, feel Ty's glove work was just a tad better than you do. But I do very much appreciate that you'd give him 3 GG, and more TPR titles than Pete Palmer's TB does. And so for that much, I do thank you greatly. Most don't give Cobb that.
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ElHalo contributed his opinion.
Bill, I don't think that anyone would doubt that Cobb was a very good, Gold Glove calibre OF'er (though I think saying that he deserved 8 GG's is a bit of a stretch... but 4 sounds entirely plausible). I'm just saying that using his counting stats to say that he deserves mention with guys like Speaker and Carey isn't really fair or accurate.



Bill Burgess

[KenFougere]

A-Team

1B Keith Hernandez
2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Ozzie Smith
RF Roberto Clemente
CF Willie Mays
LF Carl Yastrzemski
C Ivan Rodriquez
P Jim Kaat

B-Team

1B George Scott
2B Ryne Sandberg
3B Mike Schmidt
SS Louis Aparicio
RF Dwight Evans
CF Paul Blair
LF Curt Flood
C Johnny Bench
P Greg Maddox

[wlh99raiders]

c-ivan rodriguez
1b- don mattingly
2b-ryne sandberg
ss-ozzie smith
3b-brooks robinson
lf- yaz
cf-willie mays
rf-clemente
p-jim kaat

[RuthMayBond]

RMB,

I've noticed that you haven't posted your all time team yet. With all of your defensive research, I'd be very interested in seeing who you'd trot out there.I haven't finished but I can give you what I got

C-This one will be really tough since it is hard to balance PO/A/E/DP/range with CS, and I'm not finished with two of my top three candidates, and my other candidate doesn't have CS info. But strictly PO/A/E/DP/range, Schalk was probably led his league TEN STRAIGHT years! Towards CS, Bench is a solid candidate, and I don't know how IRod's career will end.

1B-I'd at least like to get through KHernandez

2B-It has to be Maz or McPhee

3B-It looks like it should be Schmidt or Brooksie, but I'd like to revisit Kamm, and I'm not finished with Santo's stats yet. I can only see Brooksie clearly winning one Gold Glove before 1967, although he is among the top candidates for a few years before that.

SS-Again, I haven't even started on the Wiz, but he does look as good as anybody. Wagner split his time among positions so he was probably the best FIELDER many years but not the best at any ONE position.

OF-It has to be Speaker, Ashburn and Carey. I suppose Andruw Jones has a shot if he can avoid a big decline.

P-You have to evaluate AT LEAST FORTY pitchers every year PER LEAGUE to get one Gold Glove, so I'm holding off on that. I could do quick research on the top guys per Total Baseball and pick from them. Greg Maddux isn't far from the top, definitely better than Kaat.

C-This one will be really tough since it is hard to balance PO/A/E/DP/range with CS, and one candidate doesn't have CS info. But strictly PO/A/E/DP/range, Schalk led his league TEN STRAIGHT years! Towards CS, I'd have to go with Bench unless IRod makes a comeback.

1B-Probably KHernandez over Konetchy, Tenney, Power.

2B-Probably Maz over McPhee

3B-Are you gonna make me pick between Schmidt or Brooksie (over Santo, BBell, Pendleton, Kamm)

SS-Ozzie over Glasscock, Aparicio, Maranville (because Wagner split among positions).

OF-It seems to be Speaker, Ashburn and Carey unless Andruw Jones reverses his decline.

P-Again, I haven't run the numbers for everyone, but Greg Maddux has got to be near the top, definitely better than Kaat. Probably add Mathewson, Alexander, C. Mays, Passeau, BLemon, Walsh.
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How about my all "old-timers" defensive team? (not another thread)

P-Mays/Mathewson
C-Zimmer/Schalk
1B-Tenney/Konetchy
2B-MCPHEE!
3B-Collins
SS-Maranville
LF-Veach/Sheckard
CF-Speaker
RF-Slaughter

These guys are way up on my list, could outfield 99% of modern guys

[HDH]

1b Hal Chase
2b Robero Alomar
SS Rabbit Maranville
3B Scott Rolen
C Ivan Rodriguez
CF Tris Speaker
RF Ichiro Suzuki
LF Bob Muesel
P Jim Kaat

[The Only Nolan]

c - Jim Sundberg
1b - Keith Hernandez
2b - Bill Mazeroski
3b - Brooks Robinson
ss - Osborne Smith
of - Richie Ashburn
of - Tris Speaker
of - Willie Mays
p - Jim Kaat

if I had to pick a distinct lf, cf, and rf, it would be:

lf - Carl Yastrzemski
cf - Richie Ashburn
rf - Roberto Clemente

[HDH]

I agree that JT Snow is on the same level of fielder as Grace and Mattingly and a slightly better than Will Clark. Kieth Hernandez was aggressive and played 1st like a shortstop played middle infield. I've read that Sisler played like Hernandez but Hal Chase was in a class by himself. Hal Chase is described as nimble, abnormally flexible, and dexterously acrobatic. I would like to have seen him play. Surprisingly, Cecil Fielder was a very good defensive 1st baseman. Much too big and slow to be considered great.

Defensive stats are the most difficult to judge. Stats vary depending on the era, pitching staff, surface, and range of the fielder. I try balance the statistics and weigh Assists and Put Outs heavier. Errors are sometimes a good indicator but can be deceptive because of a fielders range and willingness to attempt difficult plays.
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My Observations
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I'm as much of a Baseball junkie as anyone on this board. I don't pay much attention to other sports and I trust my own observations better than the outrageous claims of announcers who will state that a certain player in "arguably the best of all time..." at a certain skill then the next broadcast, state another player is "arguably the best..." at at another. Therefore, when I state my opinon, it is exactly that: My opinon only. I've watched and studied Baseball since @1968 and being from Detroit Metro, I saw allot of Tiger games. I took notice of Cecil Fielder. Surprisingly, he was a pretty good defensively. In addition, according to my observations, Keith Hernandez was the best fielding 1st baseman I've witnessed. I think Mark Grace was 2nd. Don Mattingly and JT Snow are about the same. Will Clark along with others were a step below. Again, my observations and opinions are mine only.
With Hal Chase and George Sisler I can only go on what I've read. There are few references to Hal Chase that don't talk about is defensive play. It was so good that he was a crowd attraction all his own. Teams gave him countless chances even when they knew he threw games.

[Imapotato]

I don't know if these guys were actually the best glovemen of all time or not, but they were good enough to build careers with glove alone:

C: Ray Schalk
1B: Charley Grimm
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: Aureilio Rodreguiz
SS: Rabbit Maranville
LF: Sammy Byrd (aka Babe Ruth's legs) - no real defense first LFers
CF: Paul Blair
RF: Harry Hooper

Four of them made the Hall despite being below average hitters.
Nice list...

C---Schalk look up his defensive Win shares and RF, and see he blows away ANY catcher
2b-George Cutshaw---WHO? Was voted best fielder by TSN from 1910-1920, led the league many times in many categories despite being bounced around teams who wanted him for his defensive prowness
SS---Maranville had a RF that when put into % was 140% ahead of his league
LF-No Joe Jackson, where triples went to die?
CF-Max Carey---was the greatest Defensive CF and the best basestealer that ever lived!!

[ElHalo]

Question for Jim/Jeffrey

I know what the following expression means to me, but just wanted to hear what it means to you.

When someone says, " That shortstop has very soft hands." What does that mean to you. And do you know where that expression came from?

Bill Burgess

Don't know where it comes from, but I've always known it to mean that he rarely makes an error/boots a ball on a ball he gets to. Toss a ball on a concrete slab, and it bounces away. Toss a ball on a pillow, and it stays there. Hence, soft hands.
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RuthMayBond shared this.
Pretty much what ElHalo said, but moreso that he absorbs the shock of the batted ball with his hands/body and doesn't try to manhandle it. Supposedly Dandridge/Judy Johnson ended up being a good fielder despite not having soft hands. No idea where the expression came from.
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Bill contributed this.
Here's what I think of when I hear of "soft hands".

Willie Mays was once kidding a pitcher than he wasn't so fast. They kept kidding each other until Mays finally said, "You all get out to that mound, and I'll show you what I mean. Pitcher goes out to mound.

Mays gets down into a catcher's squat behind the plate. Pitcher looks at him and says, "You gotta be kiddin' me?"

Mays says, "Throw it". Pitcher throws his hardest fastball. Mays catches it bare-handed.

That's what I think of when I hear "soft hands". Just let the ball come to you.
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Prof93:
The tendency or form of a fielder to bend the elbows when fielding a ground ball, thereby making the play look relaxed.

[Bill Burgess]

Leecemark,
Bill, we don't agree often but I think we have a little influence on one another anyway. Not that long ago I wasn't ranking Negro Leaguers at all. Now I am arguing for them nearly as much as you. You also got me to appreciate Buck Ewing, although not quite to the degree you do. Take heart my friend, your efforts are not entirely in vain.
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Mark,
I may be a little hard on your opinions sometimes, but that never undermines my respect for them. I will give you very high marks on your ability to defend your opinions, and in an admirably moderate tone, which gives them more weight, of course.

And your Top End of Ruth, Mays, Wagner, Cobb is almost the same as mine; Cobb, Wagner, Mays, Bonds, Ruth, Charleston. But most of the house agrees with us on those guys. But still . . .

So our perceptions dove-tail at the Top End, which shows a lot. And you are banging for Lloyd now. Which is such a stretch for you. So, I recognize that you've stayed open & fresh, and want to grow.

So, I do appreciate your efforts here. By working the many polls, you've done a real service. And the Top 10's were a lot of work for you, but a lot of fun for us. Of course, you got the idea from ME, with my Top 20's, and I even got you to offer your second 10's pretty often, as your Honorable Mentions. That gave me real pleasure, that so many of the guys, followed my example and gave us their top 20's. THAT'S what gave me such a kick, to see how the house ranked the Honorable Mentions.

So, here's to us, Mark. Long may we assist the house in interesting exchanges, and great, civil debates on matters baseball. Thanks for so much depth of erudition.

[Bill Burgess]

Mark,

"Bill, the men you mention did see Hernandez play - but 50 years after Sisler. Their memories of Sisler's play and ability to accurately compare it to Hernandez may have been less than perfect. They were also all men in their 70s and 80s. I wouldn't expect them to abandon a hero of their youth for some young whippersnapper. I have to consider their opinions on the two as less than authoritative."

(Bill - Mark. While your reservations may be quite legit, to dismiss their opinions as "old fogyism", is also quite unfair. Be honest. If they had praised Keith as the best, wouldn't you be lauding their "honesty/objectivity"? I bet you would.

Those players from that era, were entitled to go either way. Why force them to vote modern? Maybe they put Sizz on their teams for overall value. He DID bury Keith with the bat, didn't he. He did bury Keith on the bags, didn't he? And he was rated tops with the glove before he got double-vision from '24-29. Maybe Sizz made their teams as an all-rounder in excellence in his prime.

So, I think you've being awful unfair to good observers. And what if a lot of original Sizz supporters changed their minds over the decades and become supporters of Gehrig, Foxx, and others? Why can't a tiny core of Sizz's original supporters stay with him, and retain their respect? Why must those tiny few sacrifice their good reps with us? MUST we debit them their good judgment, respectability for 1 opinion?

How would you like it if a lot of folks stripped you of all good judgment for your opinions on either Joe Jackson, Sizz, or some other topic? Wouldn't you plead for overall balance in your other opinions? If you look at my all time all star file, you will see that their teams were all very respectable, which gives their Sizz selection fair value. I think you're being very adament about not only Sizz, but his loyal supporters too. And that's not like you, Mark. I know you to be better than that. I'm not criticizing here. Just pleading for fairness to the witnesses.

Chase supporters:
We agree that there could never be sufficient excuse to select a crook for an all time team. But their judgment that Chase was the last word in 1B defense was not skewed. Chase WAS the best, when he chose to be, which wasn't too often apparently. But a group can have good judgment on his defense, and still be out to sea in placing him on their teams. Takes a will of iron, Mark, to remain neutral in the face of a moral crime. But that is our task, as neutral observers. Even demons have their gifts. Much as I despise defending the *******.
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ElHalo:
Well, Chase's defense was legendary, of course, with several games of more than 20 putouts. He did have a batting title. I guess if you really, really value defense highly, and give him extra credit for his charisma and personality, there could be some basis. I can't really see it, though.

Then again, we have to remember that baseball is, at its essense, entertainment... and what's more entertaining than an unsavory underworld figure with charisma and charm stepping on the heads of the hard working folk to earn his way?
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Leecemark:
Bill, I don't dismiss anyone's opinion becasue of one boneheaded pick. If I did I wouldn't be able to respect anyone's judgment - even my own. Everybody has occasional poor judgments and beyond that somethings I disagree strongly with I can still see the reasons behind that choice.
--Howver, if someone has an outrageously off the wall opinion about something and sticks to it over time in the face of compelling evidence to the contary I have to wonder about their overall judgment. Chase is such an example.
--Lets take you for another example. You have spent many hours of the years researching baseball. You post some very interesting things and I've learned alot from you. On the other hand, you believe some things that I just can't imagine any logical basis for. Everytime you introduce a player to the discussion I have to wonder "Is this a Buck Ewing who is worth investigating and maybe upgrading (or adding in his case) to my rankings" or "Is this a Bill Lange" . When you insist on arguing for a pretty good, short career guy from the 1890s as an all time great it cast doubts on anything else you post.
--You have alot of unconventional opinions, which is fine. Some of them have made me reconsider my own, although Sisler is never getting near my top 10 (or 50) overall or especially high on my 1B list. Lange, however, is an issue where you devote alot of effort which is counterproductive to persuading me - and I suspect others - from buying into arguments which may have more behind them. I don't dismiss what you have to say, but you do have a higher burden of proof than someone who more consistently posts ideas which make sense to me. Doesn't make you wrong or me right, just makes it harder for you to convince me of things.
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Mark,

Fair enough. As you once wrote, my goal is not to be thought of as "mainstream". Somewhere along my personal journey, I must have made an unconcouse decision to go my own way. I like to be daring, and gutsy.

The way I see baseball evolving, there is a real polarization between the statisticians and the traditionalist researchers. SABR has influenced many to go statwards. Most on Fever are trying to be stat guys, or those who trust the numbers and distrust the personal observers.

While I do like stats and know that eventually, they will be much more trustworthy, I still proclaim that stats should not be the final determining factor. Not yet, at this moment. Why? Because all systems give different results. After Ruth, and often Williams, the results are so widely different that I could never give my heart to these systems, yet.

One example: Total Baseball gives Ty Cobb 1 (!) TPR title, but Wins Shares gives him 6 titles.

Total Baseball gives Eddie Collins 6 TPR titles, and Win Shares gives him 1 title.

So, I ask, how can such contradictions exist, in a field that hopes to gain respect? When the two most prestigous systems are so far apart as to be at war with each other, how reasonable persons can take either system seriously speaks to the common sense of stat advocates.

At the extreme other end, which most Fever men have scorned, is the quotes of the other players. Jeff and Jim have taken the lead in scorning the opinions of past eye-witnesses. And you also have to a large extent, found whatever excuse you've found convenient, to dismiss eye-witnesses.

Me: Stats and traditional research (historical quotes) MUST go hand-in-hand. For anyone to embrace one and trash the other is immature, disturbing and troubling. To deliberately cut oneself off from either is to retard one's progress towards mastership. There is such a thing as learning how to learn. Why you, Jim or Jeff would decide to isolate yourselves from any avenue of information would call good judgment into question. Learning is hard enough already. To trash historical opinions is counter-productive to understanding BB.

My point: When a few say something, who cares? When a large number of those who count, agree on some player being a star or a bum, harder to dismiss. But you 3 have found no problems at all in dismissing them. Prejudice, blah, blah, blah.

When was the last time that 10 major star players or BB authorities asserted that a certain player was a star, and he turned out to be a bum? Never happened. I've said before and I'll say it again.

In a court, only 1 person's eye-witness testimony is often sufficient to send someone to death, or deprive them of their freedom for life. Get that? Only 1!

You guys excuse the disagreeing stat systems, but find concurring observers, who disagree with your PERSONAL opinions to be fatal.

Inconsistent. Sizz put such folks as Cobb, Eddie Collins, Hornsby, owner Bob Quinn, St. Louis sports writer/editor J. Roy Stockton & Branch Rickey in astounded awe of his peak play. So perhaps reality is harder to distill into numerical formulae than you can concede.

Men of Fever. Scorn not the observers, simply because they disagreed with each other as to who was the best. Listen well, and decide with your intuition/instincts. Stats are in their infancy. There will be time enough to give them more attention as they keep evolving.

Bill Burgess

[Bill Burgess]

Jim,

I also have that article in my collection. But, I have 3 others, which round out the picture on Cap's opinions. Here are some of his other opinions.

In 1909, Cap was asked to give his 1909 team, and as it turns out he'd been giving his yearly teams for many years. So to say he stopped following the game is just uninformed. I will give his two interviews, for your education.

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All-American Professional Baseball Team

Selecting the Stars of the Diamond for 1909, by A. C. Anson, One-Time Captain of Chicago

I have been picking All-American teams, lo, these many years, but this is the first time I have been called upon to give my selection to the public; that is, with the single exception of nearly forty years ago. It may be of passing interest to recall that among the coterie of stars whom I then regarded as the best exponents of our now greatest national pastime were Al Spalding, with Jim White, his battery mate of the old Bostons; Cal MacVey, Ross Barnes, George Wright, and Jim O'Rourke - names I now recall as appearaing in the roster of that first galaxy of star performers.

My team of all-stars must, above all else, be a hitting team. My contention has always been that it is the hitting team that wins out, and this is borne out by the team averages of this season's pennant winners.

Always looking with favor upon the fellow who can hit the ball, I am sometimes given to overlooking the speed marvel, whose work in the field entitles him to equal consideration with his brother who drives out a safe hit every third time at bat.

In my selection of a 1909 team it has been my endeavor to choose men whose individual records, taken together with my personal knowledge for their abilities in the various departments of the play, entitle them to their respective positions upon the "All-America."

The 13 Star Team:

Catcher - Gibson - Pittsburgh
Pitcher - Mathewson - Giants
---------Brown - Chicago
---------Mullin - Detroit
---------Walsh - Chicago
---------Plank - Philadelphia
1B Chance - Chicago
2B Collins - Philadelphia
SS Wagner - Pittsburgh
3B Lord - Boston
RF Cobb - Detroit
CF Hofman - Chicago
LF Crawford - Detroit

In the selectionn of a catcher one man stands out alone the peer of all backstops in the major leagues during the closing season--Gibson of the "Pirates" is my choice. I do not, however, feel that his work has been superior to or even the equal of that of Kling during the preceding season. The scarcity of really first class catchers is surprising. I am sure that the bones of those masters of the art of catching, Mike Kelly and Buck Ewing, should rest uneasy in their graves were they to witness the work of some of the wearers of the "big mitt" in the game to-day.

I like very much the work of Archer, who is very accurate in his throwing to bases, and but little inferior to his predecessor, Kling.

As a pitching staff there are a number of "slab artists" in both leagues whose work has been consistent, but the winnings of "Matty," the "Miner," and "Big Ed" give them the preference in the National--the first has been as effective as formerly since rounding to after his injury. Brown's run of 10 straight games won is worthy of especial mention, and did much to make the "Cubs" the contender in the pennant race. Plank, Connie Mack's mainstay on the mound, is on season's form easily the "southpaw" star of the big leagues. Ed Walsh, whom I have held for several years past to be the leader of present-day pitchers, proved ineffective during the greater part of the season, but has rounded to his old-time form, and I feel, is entitled to a place in my line up.

-----------------Chance for Captain---------------------------------------

FRANK L. CHANCE--the "Peerless Leader"--would, I believe, be the choice of the greater percentage of "fans" and players for the "initial sack" position; and by reason of his proven ability as a handler of men, his generalship, and cool judgment, is easily my pick for captain.

Collins, a star of the first magnitude in all branches of the game--a batter to my liking, with an average of more than .350--is entitled to first consideration upon his record for the second base position. Lajoie looms up almost as formidable as ever, and with the managerial cares removed can be looked upon to exceed his best previous effort another season. Johnny Evers, one of the brainiest players in the game, quick to think and execute a play, if batting above the .300 mark would be the logical choice.

Wagner--the great "Honus," king pin of them all--the one man in the game to-day who, more than any other, reminds me of the "old-time." Seven times leader of his league. A record indeed! I am for the big German, and who would not be?

The batting, base-running, and fielding of Bush gives him the second call.

Harry Lord, captain of the Boston "speed-boys," is my choice for the far-corner sack: he fields his position faultlessly, is a hard hitter, heady, and fast on bases. Devlin puches close for second choice.

For right field, Tyrus Cobb--"Georgia Peach"--the bright satellite of the outfield, ranking batsman is the American League quite likely the fastest man in either league, as indicated by his wonderful base-stealing record. "Ty," on account of his daring on bases and the fact that his spikes have often connected with some unfortunate baseman, has been accused of playing "dirty ball." The writer can not place credence in the stories told, but would be the first to denounce any one employing such tactics upon the diamond

---------------------Many Good Men Omitted--------------------------

ARTIE HOFMAN'S work in the outfield this season entitles him to the center garden position. With an arm that gets the ball to the bag just ahead of the base-runner, his batting prowess clinches him the job. I like Magee next best.

Crawford, one of the premier "stickers" in his league, fast in the field and on base, draws the remaining outfield position.

It would be beyond the limtis of possibility to select an all-star National-American League team to meet with the approval of all the "fans" and players. The team outlined above will hit well above the coveted .300 mark, and the men selected seem to me to possess the necessary qualifications for playing the game as it should be played. The names of many good men must necessarily be omitted. Many players outside of the above list are stronger in certain points of the game than those I have selected; but, to my mind, the chosen team presents the most formidable array of talent possible to gather together to-day. (Collier's, Saturday, October 16, 1909)
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Another interesting article, giving Cap's opinions follows.

--------------Old-Time Ball Players Superior, Anson Holds-----------------

Rusie, Ewing and Lange best Men Game Has Known, He says.


Cap. Anson, one of the daddies of baseball, believes the old-time ballplayers were superior to the modern crop. "Good baseball was played 20 years before the game was taken in hand by the National League in 1876," said Anson, recently. "But, of cousrse, in those days there were not so many ball players to be had.

"Yet with the present wealth of material in the big leagues there are comparatively few really good players. In my opinion, Wagner and Lajoie, though they are growing old, possess more natural skill than the younger stars of to-day, with the possible exception of Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker."

When asked if he had ever seen any pitchers better than Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Alexander and other modern stars, Anson said, "Yes." He believes that Amos Rusie, who pitched for the Giants form 1890 until 1899, was the greatest of them all.

"Rusie had as much speed as Johnson, better control and the fastest curve ball I ever saw," said Anson. "He was physically the superior of Johnson, Mathewson and Alexander and was built like Jeff Tesreau, of the Giants. There was no limit to his endurance".

"Tim Keefe, who was with the Giants back in 1888, was also a master. He was among the first pitchers to perfect what is known as 'change of pace.'

"The best catcher I ever saw was Buck Ewing, who caught for the Giants when they won the world's championship in 1888 and 1889. I have never to this day seen his equal, but little Walters, of the New York Yankees, reminds me of Ewing's throwing on bases".

"Ewing was a quick thinker and a natural born leader. Bill Lange, who played for me when I had charge of the Chicago National League club, was in a class by himself as an outfielder. He was a better outfielder than Cobb or Speaker and a phenomenal thrower, and one year he stole 106 bases."

"How about Billy Sunday?" Cap was asked.

"Billy is a better evangelist than a ball player," was the reply. "He was the fastest runner that ever drew on a spiked shoe when we played on the Chicago team, but he didn't always exercise the best judgment in stealing bases. He was an excellent outfielder and a fair hitter and his influence among the Chicago players was good." (The Washington Post, June 3, 1917, pp. S18, " Old-Time Ball Players Superior, Anson Holds)
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Cap chose his All-Time team for the Sporting News, on Jan. 17, 1918, pp. 8.

His lineup consisted of:

1B - Cap Anson
2B - Fred Pfeffer
SS - Ross Barnes
3B - (Ned) Ed Williamson
OF - Bill Lange
OF - George Gore
OF - Jimmy Ryan
OF - Hugh Duffy
C - Buck Ewing/King Kelly
P - Amos Rusie
P - John Clarkson
P - Jim McCormick
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So there you have some opinions from the very famous Cap Anson. Some pearls (Ewing/Lange) mixed in with his obvious "old fogey" rhetoric.

Baseball historian/statistician Ernie Lanigan was quoted in Sporting News twice as stating that old Cap Anson had selected Ty Cobb as the best ever before he died in 1922. But in all my research, I have never turned up the quote. Which would have shown good growth in Cap. So we have from 1918-22, for Cap to evolve to that perception, if Lanigan is to be believed.
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ElHalo cops a plea.
Well, ok, so he followed the game. That still leaves no excuse for the obvious bias in his all time listing.

Bill Burgess

[RuthMayBond]

This house never fails to go in a different path than I'd have thought. I was expecting the order to go;

1. Andrew Jones
2. Tori Hunter
3. Mike Cameron
4. Jim Edmonds
5. Mark Kotsay

I can never guess them right.

Bill BurgessActually, your 5 could go toe-to-toe with any other of today's guys

[HDH]

Its hard to judge fielding in the 1800s. Not only was the game played differently where a home run was a monthy occurance and usually inside the park, the gloves didn't have pockets and their use was optional. This makes me believe that most balls were ground balls. It seems that Assists and Put- Outs should be much greater before 1900.

As far as greatest infielders go, SS Rabbit Maranville and 2B Charlie Gehringer averaged nearly 500 Assists and 350 PO over the years they played full time. Their average would be a great year for every other infielder that has ever played. Below is the best years for these players. Except for Gehringer, where in all his years he posted similar numbers, this is not their avereage year:

SS 621 A 288 PO Ozzie Smith
SS 517 A 353 PO Honus Wagner
SS 472 A 259 PO Alex Rodriguez
SS 457 A 244 PO Derek Jeter
SS 574 A 407 PO Rabbit Maranville

2B 641 A 396 PO Frankie Frisch
2B 471 A 449 PO Eddie Collins
2B 440 A 417 PO Joe Morgan
2B 571 A 330 PO Ryne Sandberg
2B 541 A 358 PO Charlie Gehringer

[RuthMayBond]

Jeffrey,

Hope about showing me your top 20 2B, with some brief notes?

Would that be possible?

Bill BurgessAt least it's a little bit easier than SS :laugh
Hornsby
Lajoie
Collins
Morgan
Carew (position problems again)
Gehringer
Biggio
Alomar
I'm not sure how much to penalize Frisch & Sandberg for their long career dragging down their OPS+ compared with Grich. And Jackie's career was SO short :hp
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Jeffrey,

Again, your homework has paid off nicely. Good daring without dissing the must-have guys. I'm very relieved you haven't listened to Rogers detractors, as to his defense, which was credible enough. Or downrated Lajoie/Collins, which is a popular vogue, but ignorant. I think you have Morgan a slot or too high, but I realize, he has his support here. I think his D. is a little inflated. Could you be persuaded to switch Carew/Gehringer? Biggio good, but Alomar is too high. Can't see how he displaces Frisch, Sandberg, or Robinson, Grich. OPS+ isn't everything. I like intangibles, especially for Robinson.

But thanks a million, Jeffrey. I'm still trying to influence your development. You are far too valuable to be wasted.
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Rogers D may not have been the best but he did lead the league two times each with putouts and assists, and his Range Factor/League is not that much behind Frisch, Gehringer, or Collins What can I say about Morgan, he has a 132 OPS+ over 11000+ PA, won 3 putout titles and had almost 700 SB at a great rate. Again, I'm basically counting Carew's career as 2B even though he obviously played elsewhere. If I chop it up, I have to chop up Wagner, Rose, Banks ... Carew beat Gehringer in OPS+, PA, Range Factor/League and SB. Alomar beats Frisch & Sandberg in OPS+, both in PA, Frisch in Range Factor/League, Frisch in Assist titles and both in SB. I understand what you mean about intangibles, but then people can assign any value they want to them
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[plask_stirlac]

To be a little different...

C - Jim Sundberg
1B - Steve Garvey
2B - Charlie Gehringer (I'll swipe this one)
3B - Scott Rolen
SS - Omar Vizquel
LF - Carl Crawford :)
CF - Willie Wilson
RF - Ichiro Suzuki

[Imapotato]

"I did bring several to your attention, what did you think of them?"

I don't remember seeing them. Who are they? Show them to me again, and I will tell you what I think.

Glasscock, Ozzie, Bancroft, GDavis, GMcBride, Maranville, Doolan, Belanger, and Aparicio,

but probably not Wallace and hardly GWright (5.35 RF vs 5.27 league)

Bill Burgess

Glasscock...no

Ozzie Smith...not the best...overrated but damn good

Bancroft...above average but should not be mentioned

McBride...Better than Bancroft and any other AL SS...too bad he couldn't hit, but like Jeter he was called Pinch, for his clutchness

Maranville...The Best defensive SS of all time

Doolan...Better than Bancroft, not better than McBride

Belanger...no

Aparicio...very underrated...is with Ozzie Smith

Bobby Wallace...considering, 3b was the more defensive position, how he constantly made single game records was OUTSTANDING. His RF goes down because of his odd career, time off for umpiring, PT player/manager...look at his prime numbers Bill. He was better then Ozzie Smith

Honus Wagner...maybe he is a given? Better then Smith only pales to Wallace, Aparacio Smith and Wallace

Joe Tinker...when he played he was pretty damn good, a George McBride who could hit.

Donie Bush...Slightly better then Bancroft, less then Mcbride and tinker.

and I agree with the Jack Clements comment

Bill and I disagree, he goes with Buck Ewing I go with Jack Clements as the best C of the 19th century...and the best Philly C of all time

[Bill Burgess]

Anyone up to taking a crack at rating the recent 2nd basemen defensively.

Kent
Alomar
Grich
Sandberg
Soriano
Biggio

or the greats from the past: Defensively Only:

McPhee
Maz
Collins
Lajoie
Gehringer
Hornsby
Carew
Evers
Fox
Frisch
Morgan
Robinson


Bill Burgess

[RuthMayBond]

Grich, Sandberg and Biggio are pretty much neck-in-neck (maybe I could break my tie if I decided my undecided hypothetical Gold Gloves). Then Alomar, Kent and Soriano.

Maz, McPhee, Fox & Collins are so awesome it's hard to pick among them. Slightly below that would be Lajoie, then Gehringer. Then you've got the merely good or worse, with possibly Carew (not sure what to do with his split time), Morgan, Evers (overrated), JRobinson (split time again), Frisch and Hornsby. Flame away :laugh

[Yankees7]

Players I actually saw play

C-Berra
1B-Power
2B-Mazeroski
3B-C.Boyer
SS-Aparicio
OF-Mantle
OF-Ashburn
OF-Clemete

[leecemark]

pre-1900: Bid McPhee
1900s: Nap Lajoie
1910s: Eddie Collins (or George Cutshaw)
1920s: Frankie Frisch
1930s: Charley Gehringer (or Ski Merillo or Hughie Critz)
1940s: Joe Gordon
1950s: Nellie Fox
1960s: Bill Mazeroski
1970s: Boby Grich
1980s: Ryne Sandberg (or Whitake or White)
1990s: Robbie Alomar

[Bill Burgess]

Windy,

I looked over your good analysis, but something is missing. I don't feel it is fair to compare Charlie to Joe in terms of leading their leagues.

Charlie had to go head to head with Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Hank Greenberg, Joe D., Al Simmons, and a few others who Joey never had to cross lances with.

If little Joey had had to clang swords with those campfire legends, I doubt if he'd have done any better in leading his league in Slg. ave, onbase ave., OPS, OBP, etc.

Despite integration, to say that Joey came up in a much softer offensive climate, is to understate the obvious by many degrees. Charlie came up in an era of Giants, Joey in an era of midgets, by comparison. Quality of eras can skew the Relative stats.

Charlie hit as well as Joey did, but had a much tougher level of hitter to cope with for his league leads. Just two completely different calibers of offensive competition. Joey had Schmidtie/Benchie to deal with but it's just not the same thing.

I believe that Gehringer wiped the floor with him in D. and Joey only cleaned Charlie's clock in the running game. And Charlie ran well, but wasn't in Joey's league on the bags. Joey had somewhat more pop, but that's about it.

Charlie may have done worse in Relative Stats, but only because true behemoths roamed the BB landscape in those days.
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WindyCity:
You're probably right about the top players Gehringer was competing against to lead the league. A very valid point. But taking the leagues as a whole, I can't believe that the 1920's all white league was better than the post intergration, better scouting coverage 60's and 70's.

Plus Morgan had to hit guys like Koufax, Perry, Jenkins, Gibson, Marichal, Carlton, Seaver, Drysdale, and Niekro. Gehringer had Grove to battle, but Lyons, Penncock, and Covelski just aren't in the same class as the top guys Morgan faced.
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ElHalo:
I see it. I agree that Gehringer is fourth ever.

Gehringer is a better hitter for average, even in the context of era. Morgan has a bit more plate discipline, true. Gehringer is significantly better in league adjusted slugging. Remember how many doubles the guy hit; he averaged 40 every 162 games, while Morgan averaged 27.

Gehringer drove in 100 runs 7 times, Morgan once. Gehringer scored 100 12 times, Morgan 8. Morgan was a better basestealer, though Gehringer wasn't bad.

So far, I have that Morgan had more plate discipline and better base stealing, while Gehringer had better contact hitting, and took more extra bases. Morgan hit a couple more homers, but not enough to make up for Charlie's advantage in doubles and triples.

The kicker here, though, is defense. Morgan was very good. Gehringer was outstanding, borderline all time great. I put him behind Mazeroski, Joe Gordon, Bid McPhee, and nobody else.

To me, it's hard to see how not to put Gehringer ahead of Morgan, unless you're going strictly on OPS+.
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WindyCity:
The numbers don't back up your claim that Gehringer was a better defensive player - let alone that he ranks among the absolute best ever second basemen.

Relative slugging: Gehringer 113, Morgan 111. Make a timeline adjustment since Morgan played against a deeper league and their dead even.

So, slugging is even, and we'll say their even in fielding (stats give an edge to Morgan, but we'll just say even). What we have left is Morgan's superior OBP and baserunning. Gehringer has a better batting average. I still take Morgan.

And Gehringer should have more seasons with 100 runs or RBIs. He played during an offensive explosion and had a great team. Morgan played in an era that favored pitching (he did have a great lineup).
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Bill Burgess

[Pghfan987]

I figured this list would come out soon.

1B: Keith Hernandez
2B: Maz
SS: Ozzie Smith
3B: Scott Rolen
LF: Bonds ;-)
CF: Mays
RF: Clemente
P: Maddux
C: I-Rod
DH: Edgar Martinez

2nd team:
1B: Bill Terry
2B: Joe Gordon
SS: Omar Vizquel
3B: Brooks
LF: Andruw Jones- no one comes to mind as far as real LFers
CF: Speaker
RF: Ichiro
P: Kaat
C: Bench
DH: Frank Thomas

Mark

[Bill Burgess]

Jeff,

I appreciate your head's up on Stuffy McInnis, as a glove wiz at 1st. Do we now consider him on the all-time glove list? How about giving me your all-time 1stBase glove list?

Mine are:

1. Chase
2. Sisler
3. Terry
4. Hernandez
5. Mattingly
6. Will Clark
7. JT Snow
8. Lou Blue
9. McInnis

Not sure after that. Help me out, willya? How about givin' me some ideas.


How does Gil Hodges rate with you? Or Parker of the Dodgers?
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RuthMayBond:
I'd consider JStart, Anson, Comiskey, Beckley, Tenney, Konetchy, McCormick, Banks as I have them all deserving at least four GG.
I have Hodges as deserving five GG so definitely include him.
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RuthMayBond:
I had Wright as 8th before I decided I didn't know enough about him; certainly no Omar; I've always though Long was overrated defensively; I forgot about Marion, he should be on there; Honus, I don't think, was all that great of a defender. GG quality, sure, but not all time great quality.


Bill Burgess

[Bill Burgess]

Your Top 10 Shortstops Ever, Defense ONLY.


Form Chart:

Pre-1900: George Wright, Ed McKean, John Montgomery Ward, Jack Glasscock, Herman Long, Hughie Jennings, Bill Dahlen, Tommy Corcoran, George Davis.

Bobby Wallace, Honus Wagner, Joe Tinker, Donie Bush, Glenn Wright, Arky Vaughan, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Terry Turner, Leo Durocher, Jack Berry, Robin Yount, Ernie Banks, Cal Ripken, Alan Trammell, Luis Aparicio, George Davis, Alex Rodriguez, Dave Concepcion, Ozzie Smith, Barry Larkin, Luke Appling, Rabbit Maranville, Marty Marion, Roger Pedckinpaugh, Omar Vizquel, Maury Wills, Pee Wee Reese, Phil Rizzuto, George McBride.


Negro Leagues: Pop Lloyd, John Beckwith, Willie Wells.

Appreciate notes, dates, Honorable Mentions.

Bill Burgess

[Bill Burgess]

John B. Sheridan, St. Louis spwr. (1888-1929)
Sporting News column, "Back of Home Plate", 1917-29


"(Joe) Vila adds, that in his opinion (Hugh) Jennings was the greatest of shortstops. Again I must disagree. Jennings was a great shortstop, bar one very serious shortcoming, a weak arm. that weakness forced Hugh to play a shallow field, where Wallace and Wagner could play a deep field, 40 feet deeper than Jennings could. True, Jennings made a wonderful job of short, his limitation of arm power considered. But Wallace, Wagner and Herman Long could play so much deeper than Jennings that they naturally could get grounders that Jennings could not get, and make, also go farther back for fly balls than Jennings could go.

Why, about 1893, Jennings' arm was so weak that he was forced to play almost on the grass behind the pitcher. At that, Hugh could do everything but throw, go either way, back for flies, etc. I never saw any infielder who could make putouts on long, wild throws from the catcher as Jennings could. He'd make a putout on a low throw that other infielders would "high low" to the center fielder.

Wallace was, I have always believed, the greatest of shortstrops in a fielding sense. He could do all the things that Wagner could do and one that Wagner could not do, get a ball behind the third baseman, and by quick righting of the body and sheer power of arm, make the assist at first. Wagner could do all these things, save right his heavy body in time to make the throw. (Sporting News, February 11, 1926) -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"With a powerful arm, a quick release, and outstanding range, speed, and agility, Long played shortstop, according to the Boston Globe, "like a man on a flying trapeze." . . . His career chances-per-game (6.4) tops all shortstops.

. . . twice knocking in over 100 and scoring over 100 seven times. His 149 runs scored led the NL in 1893 and his 12 HRs led in 1900. Noisy and uncouth on the field, he urged teammates to greater efforts, ragged opponents, and stirred up fans. He always played all out, once breaking Pittsburgh catcher Connie Mack's leg witha ferocious slide when there was no play at the plate.
(The Ballplayers, ed. by Mike Shatzkin, 1990, pp. 633.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1889 shortstop Herman Long made 117 errors. Today he would never have the chance to make so many without being booted back to the minors, but the game was different in 1889, when Long's numerous miscues didn't even lead the league. In more than 16 major league seasons he accumulated an astonishing 1,070 errors at SS alone, plus another six when he filled in at other positions. Add his minor league bobbles and he probably made more errors than any other man in BB history.

Yet Long was regarded as one of the best shortstops of his day, and many authorities place him at the top of the list. Although he made scads of errors, he also covered more ground than any of his counterparts. Many of his misses came on balls that other shortstops could only watch go by from afar. Long was spectacularly acrobatic as he pursued batted balls, cutting off some hits with moves more likely to be seen at the circus. He ranks second all-time in total chances per game. The outstanding plays that occasionally resulted from his attempts made the extra errors worthwhile. (Baseball: The Biographical Encyclopedia, ed. of Total Baseball, David Pietrusza, Matthew Silverman, Michael Gershman, 2000, pp.674)
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". . . Long played shortstop more than any other position and was famed for the amount of ground he could cover and for his accurate fielding. (excerpted fromm his obituary, Chicago Daily Tribune, September 17, 1909, pp.14)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Denver, September 16, --Herman Long, said to be the greatest shortstop of the country, died here today of consumption (TB). He made his reputation with the Boston Nationals.) (excerpted from his obituary, Washington Post, September 17, 1909, pp. 9)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

H. G. Salsinger wrote in the Detroit News in 1935:
"Hugh Jennings was a great shortstop but how many know that Herman Long was an even better one, and that Long, until the arrival of Wagner, was recognized as the greatest shortstop of all time?"

Of Long, Jack Doyle said to John Kieran, "you can't tell an old Bostonian there was ever a better shortstop." Walter Barnes wrote in the Boston Globe in 1936, "Herman Long was never excelled in the brilliancy of his fielding at short-stop." Joe Vila in 1930 reported Kid Nichols as saying of Long, "He was the greateset shortstop I ever saw. He covered more ground than Hans Wagner or Hughie Jennings. He fielded grounders no other shortstop could have reached and he threw out the fleetest base runners. He was a fine hitter and lead-off man, and once he stole more than 100 bases."

Bill Burgess

[ElHalo]

1. Maranville
...
...
...
2. Jennings
3. Aparicio
4. Smith
5. Peckinpaugh
6. Tinker (not sure how he missed your list, Bill)
7. Rizzuto

I lose my confidence after this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------I had Wright as 8th before I decided I didn't know enough about him; certainly no Omar; I've always though Long was overrated defensively; I forgot about Marion, he should be on there; Honus, I don't think, was all that great of a defender. GG quality, sure, but not all time great quality.

[leecemark]

1. Smith
2. Maranville
3. Aparicio
--If we're talking career defensive value after these guys, then I'd say Vizquel, Dahlen, Ripken and Conception would be obvious top 10 guys (add Bancroft, Trammell and Boudreau to round it out). If we're just talking the slickest gloves there are alot of guys who were fantastic with the leather, but had relatively short careers as regulars due to weak sticks. McBride, Miller, Marion, McMillian, Maxvill and Belanger come to mind (lets see one more, ....Brinkman).
--The top three make it regardless of criteria. You chose which criteria you like and fill in the other 7 based on that.

[RuthMayBond]

Speaker/Mays:

We're waiting.Geez. Speaker had a slight advantage in OPS+, PO & A titles, and had an unfair advantage in counting stats from his home parks. Mays had a slight advantage in plate apps and Adjusted Range Factor. Speaker had more SB but I bet Mays had a better SB%. I'd take EITHER ONE on my team :D :D :D :D
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speaker/Mays

Speaker is 10th in relative BA, Mays may be 51st but he's not in the top 50. Speaker is 18th in relative OBP, Mays may be 51st but he's not in the top 50. Mays is 17th in relative SLG, Speaker is 25th. I don't have home/away right now but did note that Speaker had a larger than conventional home advantage for counting numbers. Mays has 57 black ink and 337 grey ink, Speaker has 34 black ink 346 and grey ink. Mays has 642 win shares, Speaker has 630. Mays has 89.6 total player wins, Speaker has 82. Mays had a better longevity and peak. I don't know about running game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leecemark:
--So Mays comes out ahead in most numbers without making an era adjustment. Factor in that he was playing in a fully developed and integrated league and the gap widens significantly. Mays-Cobb may be a close call (I vote Mays), but Mays-Speaker is really no contest.
P.S. Mays wins the baserunning contest by a landslide. He led his league in SB multiple times, while Speaker never came close. Mays also has a terrific success rate, while Speaker's is dismal (although to be fair, most guys didn't have good rates then. They weren't very selective about when they ran).
--Don't get me wrong on Speaker. I've got him 4th amoung CF, but 12th amoung all players. CF is some rough competion. I'd say it has the greatest concentration of talent at the top of any position.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ElHalo:
I'd have them about dead even without an era adjustment. The fact of the matter is this, though: I rank Speaker 7th overall and Mays 3rd. Is an era adjustment really enough to move a player up four spots at the top of the list? I'm really, really not sure about that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Torez77:
Equivalent Average: Mays .325, Speaker .315
Wins Above Replacement Player: Mays 207.8 (10.6 per year), Speaker 176.9 (9.2 per year)
Fielding Runs Above Replacement Player: Mays 526 (26.5 per year), Speaker 477 (24.4 per year)

When figuring out their averages per year, I subtracted the years when they played less than 100 games. If we're just comparing them defensively, anybody have Defensive Win Shares available?

I'll take Mays over Speaker as an all-around player anyday! And even just comparing them defensively, I believe Mays tops Speaker in every advanced stat!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10-23-2005, 10:52 AM
CTaka
Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 10

When figuring out their averages per year, I subtracted the years when they played less than 100 games. If we're just comparing them defensively, anybody have Defensive Win Shares available?

I'll take Mays over Speaker as an all-around player anyday! And even just comparing them defensively, I believe Mays tops Speaker in every advanced stat!
In terms of Fielding Win Shares:

Mays 103.6 Total FWS 4.11 per 1000 innings
Speaker 117.8 Total FWS 4.93 per 1000 innings
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Pitching Beats Hitting]

A little late to be on board, I know. But I figure I'll throw in my two cents.

c- Pudge Rodriguez
1b- Hernandez
2b- Robby Alomar
3b- Brooks
ss- Ozzie
LF- Griffey
CF- Mays
RF- Andruw Jones
LHP- Jim Kaat
RHP- Greg Maddux
CL- Rivera

I know I have a lot of modern players, but that's because I have seen them play. Watching Vizquel and Alomar was like watching a circus act. Every single night one or both of them would do something rediculous. Fielding percentages are a tough barometer because we see scorers do rediculous things all the time, and there's no reason to think practices were ever any better in this regard.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

1B Keith Hernandez
2B Ryan Sandberg
SS Ozzie Smith*
3B Brooks Robinson*
C Jonny Bench
P Greg Maddux
RF Roberto Clemente
CF Willie Mays*(anyone who puts Andruw Jones over him is a moron)
LF Al Kalnine

Basically i picked the two best corner outfeilders, and the asterisks are like ones that are obvious in my opinion.

[ElHalo]

Basically i picked the two best corner outfeilders, and the asterisks are like ones that are obvious in my opinion.

They're not necessarily obvious; I have different players at all three of the positions you starred. 3B: Pie Traynor; SS: Rabbit Maranville; CF: Tris Speaker.

I think I should renew my all time defensive all stars, though....

C: Ray Schalk (not even close here)
1B: George Sisler
2B: Joe Gordon
SS: Rabbit Maranville
3B: Pie Traynor
LF: Joe Jackson
CF: Tris Speaker
RF: Ichiro Suzuki (yeah, I moved him ahead of Kaline, Clemente, etc.)

Second team:

C: Johnny Bench
1B: Kieth Hernandez
2B: Bill Mazeroski
SS: Luis Aparicio
3B: Brooks Robinson
LF: Carl Yastrzemski
CF: Richie Ashburn
RF: Al Kaline

[leecemark]

C: Bench, Schalk
1B: Hernandez, nobody close
2B: Maz, Gordon
3B: Robinson, Schmidt
SS: Smith, Maranville
LF: Clarke, Bonds
CF: Mays, Speaker
RF: Kaline, Clemente
--Comment: If I'm just naming 3 outfielders there would be dozens of CF ahead of every corner OF. Unlike IF where the skill sets are very differerent it is pretty clear to me that every really great and most very good CF were better than the great RF/LF. Especially LF. At least you need to have a good arm to play RF.

[The Dude]

Here's mine since I never did one:

A-Team:
C-Schalk
1B-Hernandez
2B-Mazeroski
3B-Robinson
SS-Smith
LF-Yaz
CF-Speaker
RF-Al Kaline

B-Team:
C-Bench
1B-Mattingly
2B-Morgan
3B-Schmidt
SS-Aparicio
LF-SJ Jackson
CF-Ashburn
RF-Ichiro

[ElHalo]

C: Ray Schalk
1B: George Sisler
2B: Joe Gordon
SS: Rabbit Maranville
3B: Pie Traynor
LF: Joe Jackson
CF: Richie Ashburn
RF: Al Kaline
DH: Raphael Palmeiro

[Bill Burgess]

Cobb's Defense:

Although I've never said that TC was a "great" fielder, I have repeated the assertions of his peers that he was a very, very good fielder.

Overall, Ty was only rated 4th in his time as a defensive CF. He was ranked beneath - Speaker, Milan, and Felsch.

He was generally considered below the following in defense.

Speaker, Harry Hooper, Duffy Lewis, Clyde Milan, Johny Mostil, Jimmy Sheckard, Max Carey, Eddie Roush. And below Jimmy McAleer & Bill Lange who played earlier.

He was generally thought of as an equal to Joe Jackson.

He was considered significantly superior to Babe, Sam Crawford, Earle Combs, Zach Wheat, Harry Heilmann, Red Wingo, Heinie Manush, Bob "Fatty" Fothergill, Ira Flagstead.

Cobb's gifts in the field were range, backward flight, no one covered any more ground, not even Speaker, Lange or McAleer. He had great judgment in playing the hitters. He could run down and catch up to many long flies. He had a fine OF arm until late 1918, when he injured it.

Babe was very good at playing hitters well, and camping under high flies, and had great power & accuracy in his throws. He was known for his judgment in throwing to the right base. He also was a real hustler in going after hits. He was never lazy or inattentive. Early his speed wasn't that much of a problem, but after his stomache ache in '25, his abs weakened, and his girth started to expand, so his speed was a hindrance in his OF work.

His attitude towards his defensive work was positive & strong. His only real weakness was in his lack of being able to catch up to many liners, especially to right-center, which fell away steeply at Yankee Stadium, compared to most of the others in the league.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name------------PO's/g---------Assists/g------------DPs/g---------Errors/g

Center Fielders:

Max Carey---------2.628----------.140----------------.035-----------.097
Happy Felsch------2.592----------.156----------------.055-----------.071
Tris Speaker------2.515----------.166----------------.051-----------.082
Eddie Roush-------2.455----------.120----------------.022-----------.074
Ty Cobb-----------2.168-(5 of 6)-.133-(5 of 6)-------.036 (3of6)----.092 (4of6)
Clyde Milan-------2.151----------.154----------------.030-----------.113

Corner Outfielders:

Babe Ruth---------1.983----------.091----------------.021-----------.069
Duffy Lewis-------1.855----------.146----------------.027-----------.085
Joe Jackson-------1.832----------.141----------------.027-----------.077
Harry Hooper------1.742----------.150----------------.035-----------.066


Richie Ashburn----2.89-----------.084----------------.021-----------.052
Willie Mays-------2.49-----------.086----------------.021-----------.049
Barry Bonds-------2.16-----------.073----------------.009-----------.034



Jimmie McAleer----2.42-----------.148-----------------.035----------.151
Bill Lange--------2.41-----------.189-----------------.054----------.162
Dummy Hoy---------2.20-----------.152-----------------.040----------.219

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great Historical Defensive CFers:
1. Jimmie McAleer
2. Tris Speaker
3. Richie Ashburn
4. Willie Mays
5. Bill Lange
6. Max Carey

Today: 2004

1. Andrew Jones
2. Tori Hunter
3. Mike Cameron
4. Jim Edmonds
5. Mark Kotsay
----------------------------------
Jeffrey's comment: Actually, your (modern) 5 could go toe-to-toe with any other of today's guys
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Backward Flight:

"BTW, when you say "backward flight", you're referring to chasing down a ball with his back to it? Or backing up to catch a ball while facing it?"

(Bill - In the days before 1920's live ball, the fielders were able to play much closer to the infield dirt than afterwards. But it remained for Tris Speaker to show how close in. After Tris, Clyde Milan started to play way further in, then Cobb started to also. All following Speaker's example. They were gambling that the bloopers they could catch would make up for the occasional triples over their heads. But Speaker, Milan and Cobb somehow got the knack of "knowing" when to play a bit further back. They would turn their backs to the infield and sprint for 30 yards, then turn their heads and catch the ball over their shoulders. Always got a big reaction from the fans too. That is what we call backward flight. Oscar Charleston of the old Negro L. was reputed to have that gift also. If they had merely back-pedaled, they'd never have gotten to the ball. They actually sprinted like Olympic runners. Relied on pure BB instinct. But no one was as gifted as Speaker in going and getting them. That is why he has so many assists, DPs. He played 15-20 feet behind the dirt, back of second.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some cool, colorful play from yesteryear, showcasing the Defensive Skills of Ty/Babe.

1946 - "But there also were numerous occasions when the Babe made plays which he had craftily thought up beforehand. Such as the day he played left field in Detroit and trapped no less an experienced hand than Charley Gehringer into thinking a fly ball had cleared the fence for a homer instead of coming down for an easy out. This was before the present double deck stands had been erected in what then was call Navin Field.

There was just a board fence in left and to the Babe one day it occurred that with a runner on second it could be possible, with a high fly ball hit out toward left, to fake all the notions of a dejected outfielder who knows a homer is about to sail over his head.

So he bided his time and one afternoon it came. With Gehringer on second, a high fly soared out to left. The Babe ran back to the fence, looked up at the ball for a moment and then with a motion of utter disgust shrugged his shoulders and cast his eyes on the ground. It was a beautiful piece of acting and fooled Gehringer completely. Certain the ball was clearing the fence, the Tiger second baseman headed for home. And in that same moment Ruth darted forward, got his eyes back on that ball and caught it some five feet in front of the fence. Doubling up Gehringer at second was then a simple matter.

Of course, in order to accomplish the trick an outfielder must be equipped with the gift of being able to take his eye off the ball for an appreciable length of time. But then the effervescent Babe Ruth was ever a very gifted hand at anything he tried on a ball field. (Ferdinand C. Lane, Baseball Magazine, 1946)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

John B. Foster, NY sportswriter (1888-1941)
Editor-in-Chief of the Official Spalding Base Ball Guide(1908-41)
NY Giants business manager & secretary (1912-1919)

Hugh S. Fullerton in Golfer tells of a remarkable play in base running-yet one not remarkable for Cobb, for, as a friend remarked, "He pulls that stuff all the time.

"Mr. Fullerton describes Cobb in a game in Detroit some years ago. "Late in the game, he made a play which opened my eyes. A runner was on second base when a short fly was hit over second into center. Cobb could have handled it without an effort. The second baseman or shortstop could have caught it, but it would have required a fast start. Cobb claimed the catch the instant the ball was hit. "Instead of starting for it at top speed he leaped forward, seemed to hesitate, started slowly and half stopped. Bush, who evidently knew the system, started out hard as if to try to catch the ball. Cobb yelled something. Bush stopped and backed up. The ball was falling and Cobb was still lagging. It looked fifty to one the ball would fall safe. The runner on second thought he saw the ball falling, thought Cobb didn't have a chance to make the catch and he leaped toward third. As he did so Cobb sprang forward with a wonderful sprint, made a desperate shoe-string catch, came up with the ball and tossed it to second, doubling the runner off the bag. He had made a play where there was none--had deliberately plotted to deceive the runner into believing the ball would fall safe, and had risked making a desperate catch to get the chance for a double play." (NL Spalding Baseball Guide, date uncertain)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joey D./Backward Flight

Mattingly had an excellent question concerning Joe D.'s D.
"Before Willie & Mickey, there was DiMaggio and his fabled knowing where to stand as soon as the bat hit the ball, or "at the crack of a bat", I think it was said. Still, you seem to indicate that TC was very good at this. Is that what you're saying?"

(Bill - Joe was a very storied fielder too, but nowhere in the Speaker class. It was a pretty well-known fact that Joe's brother Dom, was quite a bit better defensively than Joe was, but lacked offense. It was a toss-up if Joe's other brother, Vince, was better defensivly. Many felt he was.

Joe Sewell, who played with Speaker, told that every time a hit was to CF, he'd turn to see Speaker go for it. He claims that he never once saw Speaker turn. He said that whenever he turned his head, he'd see Speaker in full flight, back to the infield, sprinting like a bat out of hell. Speaker always said, the crack of the bat was too late. One had to start before the sound. Really getting into pychic perception, but we're not supposed to talk about that stuff, so . . . DiMag confirmed that the "crack of the bat" was too late in starting for a ball. Now that's outfielding!

Tris wrote Joe several letters in the Sporting News, urging Joe to play closer in. Joe always set up very deep in Yankee Stadium, much too deep for Speaker's taste. He felt Joe could have developed the instincts to go back, and said so in print on several occasions. Joe's very good pal, Ty, also urged Joe to be more daring and come in more. But Joe was far too consevative to trust in his backward flight that much. In a CF as deep as the Stadium, if a ball got away from him over his head, Joe felt that would have been catastrophic, and result in an inside-the-park homer, on him. So Joe stayed WAY back and let a ton of Texas bloopers fall in front of him and he'd come in, trap the balls, and fire them back to his cut-offs. Much too conservative a style, but that's what happened. DiMag was a conservative guy. But at least he never looked bad.)

[64Cards]

1B-Hernandez
2B-Mazeroski
3B-B.Robinson
SS-O. Smith
LF-Yaztremski
CF-Mays
RF-Clemente
C-Bench
p-Gibson

[Brock20]

C- Rick Ferrell
1b- Hernandez
2b- Gehringer
SS- Ozzie
3B- Brooks
LF- Yaz
CF- Ashburn
RF- Clemente
P- Maddux

My outfielders are assigned by position; for the 3 best overall, I'd go with Ashburn, Mays, and Speaker.

[538280]

C-Biz Mackey
1B-Keith Hernandez
2B-Bill Mazeroski
3B-Brooks Robinson
SS-Rabbit Maranville
LF-Barry Bonds
CF-Tris Speaker
RF-Al Kaline
P-Greg Maddux

[SABR Matt]

A Team:

P - Greg Maddux
C - Ivan Rodriguez
1B - Roger Connor
2B - Bid McPhee
3B - Jimmy Collins
SS - Ozzie Smith
LF - Rickey Henderson
CF - Andruw Jones
RF - Tony Oliva

B Team

P - John Clarkson
C - Johnny Bench
1B - Keith Hernandez
2B - Bill Mazeroski
3B - Brooks Robinson
SS - Herman Long
LF - Jimmy Sheckard
CF - Tris Speaker
RF - Al Kaline

[Naliamegod]

Team A:

C: Johnny Bench
1B: Keith Hernandez
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: Brooks Robinson
SS: Ozzie Smith
LF: Carl Yastrzemski
CF: Tris Speaker
RF: Roberto Clemente

Team B:

C: Ray Schalk
1B: Don Mattingly
2B: Bid McPhee
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Rabbit Maranville
LF: Joe Jackson
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Al Kaline

[yest]

C: Ray Schalk (this one isn't even close)
1B Jake Beckley
2B Bid Mcphee
SS Ozzie Smith
3B Brooks Robinson
OF Tris Speaker
OF Richie Ashburn
OF Max Carey

[Sultan_1895-1948]

If we're talking JUST defense:

C - Ray Schalk
1B - Hal Chase
2B - Nap Lajoie
SS - Honus Wagner
3B - Brooks Robinson
LF - Joe Jackson
CF - Tris Speaker
RF - Roberto Clemente
P - Walter Johnson


C - Johnny Bench
1B - Keith Hernandez
2B - Roberto Alomar
SS - Ozzie Smith
3B - Buck Weaver (sorry Schmidt)
LF - Joe DiMaggio (he'd do fine in LF)
CF - Oscar Charleston (sorry Mays)
RF - Ichiro
P - Mordecai Brown (sorry Maddux)

[Joltin' Joe]

1B: Keith Hernandez
2B: Eddie Collins
3B: Brooks Robinson
SS: Ozzie Smith
LF: Carl Yastrzemski
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Ichiro Suzuki
C: Johnny Bench
P: Jim Kaat

[The Splendid Splinter]

C - Ray Schalk
1B - Todd Helton (I'm probably gonna get killed here with this pick...)
2B - Bill Mazeroski
SS - Ozzie Smith
3B - Brooks Robinson
OF - Johnny Mostil (and this one too...)
OF - Tris Speaker
OF - Willie Mays
P - Greg Maddux


Honorable Mentions:

C - Johnny Bench
1B - Keith Hernandez
2B - Charlie Gehringer
SS - Honus Wagner
3B - Scott Rolen
OF - Richie Ashburn
OF - Oscar Charleston
OF - Andruw Jones
P - Jim Kaat



oh and just for fun: All Time Best Arm Team...

C - Ivan Rodriguez
1B - Will Clark (in his early days)
2B - Roberto Alomar
SS - Shawon Dunston *EDITED in for Rafael Furcal*
3B - Ken Caminiti
OF - Vladimir Guerrero
OF - Roberto Clemente
OF - Alexis Rios (hello anyone???... anyone that guns down Ichiro at home from a tag up from third just deserves to be on this list for me)
P - Nolan Ryan

imagine all those arms... the balls are flying everywhere from anywhere

[charlesblalack@yahoo.com]

C Johnny Bench/Pudge
1B Keith Hernandez/Mattingly
2B Bil Mazeroski/Lajoie
SS Ozzie Smith/Vizquel
3B Brooks Robinson/Boyer
LF Yaz/Bonds
CF Tris Speaker/Mays
RF Roberto Clemente/Kailine
P Katt/Maddux

[538280]

I'll make a new A and B team, Bill:

A Team
C-Johnny Bench
1B-Vic Power
2B-Bill Mazeroski
3B-Jimmy Collins
SS-Ozzie Smith
OF-Willie Mays
OF-Tris Speaker
OF-Andruw Jones

B Team
C-Gary Carter
1B-Keith Hernandez
2B-Bid McPhee
3B-Lave Cross
SS-Rabbit Maranville
OF-Oscar Charleston
OF-Max Carey
OF-Curt Flood
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cross is #1 in defensive Win Shares per 1000 innings among 3B with at least 10000 innings played. Him and Collins are far ahead of everyone else. The top 5:

1.Lave Cross-6.03
2.Jimmy Collins-5.93
3.Art Devlin-5.67
3.Billy Nash-5.51
4.Willie Kamm-5.30
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cross played an estimated 14977 defensive innings, which is good for 20th all time. I don't think there's a longevity problem there.

Devlin does just make the cut of 10000 innings with an estimated total of 10523.

Since early third basemen were worth more defensively, because the defensive spectrum jumped, I can adjust it for the league average third basemen. Early third basemen of Cross' time averaged 4.12 DWS per 1000 innings, so Cross has a relative DWS of 146, Collins has 144.

The modern third basemen average 3.27 DWS per 1000 innings. Here are some relative numbers for more modern great third basemen:

Brooks Robinson-130
Mike Schmidt-138
Graig Nettles-135
Gary Gaetti-135
Buddy Bell-133
Wade Boggs-117
Ron Santo-109
Tim Wallach-138
Aurelio Rodriguez-127
Ken Boyer-128
Clete Boyer-152
Darrell Evans-134
Billy Cox-130

Boyer is the only one better, but he played about 2000 less innings.

[CTaka]

oh and just for fun: All Time Best Arm Team...

C - Ivan Rodriguez
1B - Will Clark (in his early days)
2B - Roberto Alomar
SS - Shawon Dunston *EDITED in for Rafael Furcal*
3B - Ken Caminiti
OF - Vladimir Guerrero
OF - Roberto Clemente
OF - Alexis Rios (hello anyone???... anyone that guns down Ichiro at home from a tag up from third just deserves to be on this list for me)
P - Nolan Ryan

imagine all those arms... the balls are flying everywhere from anywhere[/QUOTE]

Among catchers, Buck Ewing would be on a par with Pudge.

Will Clark had a fine arm when he first came up, and he loved to display it. I'm not sure it was better than Sisler's, who originally came up as a pitcher.

Among SS, Wagner had a cannon with a then record toss of 403 feet, 8 inches in 1898. Don't remember reading if Dunston had a longer toss - Shawon had a tremendous arm from deep in the hole.

Aurelio Rodriguez also had a tremendous arm at 3B.

Any discussion of OF throwing arms would have to include Ellis Valentine and Glen Gorbous, who threw the ball 445 feet, 10 inches in 1957.

[baseballPAP]

Hmmmm sure Bill, I'll bite. I believe it was originally asked for an A and a B team, so:
A listed first.....

C-Johnny Bench/Ray Schalk
1B-Vic Power/Keith Hernandez
2B-Bill Mazeroski/Gehringer/McPhee can't really distinguish for the B team
3B-Jimmy Collins/Brooks Robinson
SS-Ozzie Smith/Rabbit Maranville
LF-Rickey Henderson/early Barry Bonds
CF-Richie Ashburn/Tris Speaker/HM Willie Mays
RF-Al Kaline/Roberto Clemente/HM Ichiro..closing fast
P-Mordecai Brown/Mike Hampton

[SABR Matt]

OK Guys...I'm posting this at great risk to my mental health.

I'm sure Ill get a wide variety of abusive and unfair responses mixed in with the more interesting and/or enlightening posts...but Bill has commanded that I continue here despite my objections.

PCA's more detailed answers to the question of defensive greatness.

Caveat #1

This is not intended to be God's Truth as revealed by me. Just another tool.

Caveat #2

I felt it was important to eliminate funky results...especially with regard to defense...by not positionally rating players who did not have at least 60% of the PRGs (PCA Equivalent Games...based on defensive claim points as a percentage of the team's total claim points at a given position) they received over their career at their primary position. Pete Rse had just 26% of his PRGs at his plurality position of first base. He will not get positionally rated for any skill...he still has an overall ranking (in the thirties I believe) but he's without a majority position. Babe Ruth has just 48% of his PRGs in RF...another 43% in LF, and the rest at first base and on the mound, so he too is without a primary position. I will provide a list of players failing to hold a primary position if anyone is interested.

For the great fielders...I would be shocked if there were ever a good fielder who didn't have a primary position...the possible exception being Stan Musial...who aged badly after a good early career in the outfield and ended up a plurality-led first baseman, but bear that in mind.

Explanation:

DP-Rk: Positional Defensive Rank

PRG: PCA Real Games (explained above)

PsPRG: PRGs at most frequently played position

CAR: Career Era Adjusted Defensive Wins (I found an error in the way I was quantifying this when I was preparing this analysis that launched a major clean-up of the PCA database files that took hours today...as well as gave me an excuse to change my offensive playing time measurement from Batting Outs to Plate Appearances...it's all good...changes were minor, but it was a necessary logical tweak)

PRO: Prorated Era Adjusted Defensive Wins (in the case of pitchers, defensive wins were prorated to 600 PRGs (the average starting pitcher gets about 30 of them per season), and this is done if and only if the pitcher has at least 250 PRGs to begin with...lesser PRG totals are too prone to weird prorating errors...we throw up our hands and leave prorated and peak elements blank in short careers. In the case of all other position players, I prorated to 2000 PRGs and rquired a minimum of 250 PRGs at the primary position and overall to receive a prorated rating.

PEAK: I've made a significant change to the way peak wins are calculated. Previously I kept only wins in each season that were above the player's career average scoring rate, but I realized this was really only half of themeasure of variability missed by the prorated wins statistic. Peak wins weren't receiving enough weight, because really all it did was eliminate the down years from the prorated element...it didn't also reward for the up years. So what I decided to do was count the absolute value of all deviations from the player's career average scoring rate...it effectively doubles the magnitude of the peak wins componant, and I believe this is appropriate. Players only received a peak element if they also received a prorated element.

Rating: (CAR+PRO+PEAK)/2 if all three elements had data (IOW...if the player met eligibility requirements)...otherwise it was simply the CAR element.

With that out of the way:

The top 20 fielders by PCA at each position.
Catchers
DP-Rk First Last PRG PsPRG CAR PRO PEAK Rating
1 Ivan Rodriguez 1620 1620 49.31 60.88 22.92 66.55
2 Gary Carter 2089 1931 40.97 39.22 23.08 51.64
3 Lance Parrish 1738 1716 36.09 41.53 20.08 48.85
4 Thurman Munson 1261 1239 32.38 51.36 13.89 48.81
5 Bob Boone 2038 2031 34.24 33.6 17.99 42.92
6 Johnny Bench 1973 1631 32.86 33.31 15.77 40.97
7 Mike Matheny 950 948 22.01 46.34 12.71 40.53
8 Jim Sundberg 1776 1774 31.3 35.25 14.42 40.48
9 Tony Pena 1814 1811 33.37 36.79 10.66 40.41
10 Carlton Fisk 2142 2087 35.57 33.21 11.83 40.31
11 Al Lopez 1704 1704 29.42 34.53 15.62 39.79
12 Ray Mueller 791 791 17.78 44.96 10.85 36.79
13 Johnny Edwards 1287 1287 24.01 37.31 10.91 36.12
14 Brad Ausmus 1320 1320 23.72 35.94 12.26 35.96
15 Rick Dempsey 1389 1378 24.48 35.25 9.73 34.73
16 Pop Snyder 784 741 16.84 42.96 7.49 33.64
17 Gabby Hartnett 1712 1684 26.06 30.44 9.24 32.87
18 Yogi Berra 1860 1626 26.17 28.14 10.9 32.6
19 Mike Scioscia 1263 1263 21.79 34.51 8.6 32.45
20 Rick Wilkins 578 566 12.47 43.15 6.82 31.22

First Base
DP-Rk First Last PRG PsPRG CAR PRO PEAK Rating
1 Roger Connor 2027 1771 34.19 33.73 21.7 44.81
2 Charlie Comiskey 1374 1353 27.07 39.4 19.43 42.95
3 Keith Hernandez 1935 1935 34.37 35.52 11.87 40.88
4 Mark Grace 2077 2077 31.12 29.97 13.94 37.51
5 Todd Helton 1067 1058 22.4 41.99 5.78 35.08
6 Steve Garvey 2176 1992 28.72 26.4 12.01 33.56
7 Wally Pipp 1783 1783 28.81 32.32 5.88 33.5
8 Frank McCormick 1417 1417 24.14 34.07 7.46 32.84
9 Pete O'Brien 1335 1292 23.93 35.85 5.23 32.51
10 Harry Davis 1728 1616 24.71 28.6 11.06 32.18
11 John Olerud 1881 1881 26.75 28.44 8.88 32.04
12 Fred Tenney 1945 1803 24.32 25.01 13.66 31.49
13 Vic Power 1483 1168 23.21 31.3 8.13 31.32
14 George Burns 1666 1620 25.01 30.02 6.94 30.99
15 Gil Hodges 1877 1751 22.69 24.18 13.66 30.26
16 Dolph Camilli 1458 1458 21.21 29.09 9.05 29.68
17 Norm Cash 1822 1818 25.06 27.51 6.67 29.62
18 Ed Konetchy 2077 2071 24.02 23.13 11.99 29.57
19 Joe Kuhel 2032 2032 24.91 24.52 9.32 29.37
20 Cap Anson 2275 2046 20.5 18.02 20.18 29.35

Second Base
DP-Rk First Last PRG PsPRG CAR PRO PEAK Rating
1 Bid McPhee 2129 2127 79.52 74.7 16.85 85.54
2 Nap Lajoie 2479 2074 68.04 54.89 36.13 79.53
3 Johnny Evers 1721 1687 56.79 66 22.29 72.54
4 Bill Mazeroski 2052 2052 60.77 59.23 16.88 68.44
5 Fred Pfeffer 1680 1546 52.99 63.08 20.08 68.08
6 Frankie Frisch 2250 1739 59.91 53.25 22.85 68.01
7 Bobby Lowe 1805 1332 52.24 57.88 24.76 67.44
8 Billy Herman 1890 1790 54.56 57.74 18.71 65.5
9 Nellie Fox 2260 2254 60.87 53.87 15.18 64.96
10 Bobby Grich 1890 1685 49.61 52.5 21.57 61.84
11 Eddie Collins 2672 2635 56.54 42.32 19.94 59.4
12 Bobby Doerr 1838 1838 47.89 52.11 17.45 58.73
13 George Cutshaw 1486 1483 42.3 56.93 15.02 57.13
14 Hughie Critz 1440 1439 40.85 56.74 16.31 56.95
15 Frank White 2140 2025 52.68 49.23 9.5 55.71
16 Pokey Reese 779 498 27.96 71.78 11.57 55.66
17 Lonny Frey 1381 929 37.07 53.69 17.39 54.07
18 Lou Whitaker 2132 2132 47.56 44.62 15.46 53.82
19 Red Schoendienst 1972 1768 46.67 47.33 12.65 53.33
20 Willie Randolph 2084 2084 47.79 45.86 12.61 53.13

Third Base
DP-Rk First Last PRG PsPRG CAR PRO PEAK Rating
1 Brooks Robinson 2800 2797 63.65 45.46 16.96 63.04
2 Jimmy Collins 1730 1695 45.9 53.06 22.74 60.85
3 Terry Pendleton 1753 1753 40.98 46.75 14.6 51.17
4 Tim Wallach 2131 2012 43.19 40.53 17.89 50.81
5 Clete Boyer 1583 1383 38.05 48.07 12.31 49.22
6 Willie Kamm 1656 1656 36.75 44.38 10.92 46.03
7 Buddy Bell 2314 2149 41.08 35.51 14.32 45.45
8 Graig Nettles 2382 2327 40.92 34.36 14.62 44.95
9 Scott Rolen 1184 1184 30.32 51.22 5.67 43.6
10 Arlie Latham 1623 1580 30 36.97 17.3 42.13
11 Billy Nash 1558 1475 30.34 38.95 11.97 40.63
12 Pie Traynor 1924 1878 32.63 33.92 14.53 40.54
13 Mike Schmidt 2303 2157 37.22 32.32 11.28 40.41
14 Gary Gaetti 2299 2191 36.26 31.54 11.26 39.53
15 Frank Baker 1542 1542 30.31 39.31 7.6 38.61
16 Jerry Denny 1270 1131 24.74 38.96 9.77 36.74
17 Harry Steinfeldt 1664 1404 27.75 33.35 11.56 36.33
18 Billy Werber 1270 1127 24.48 38.55 9.27 36.15
19 Robin Ventura 1893 1807 28.21 29.8 13.45 35.73
20 George Brett 2106 1636 30.62 29.08 10.94 35.32

Shortstop
DP-Rk First Last PRG PsPRG CAR PRO PEAK Rating
1 Ozzie Smith 2455 2455 79.2 64.52 19.47 81.6
2 Herman Long 1890 1805 61.75 65.34 21.91 74.5
3 Joe Tinker 1767 1725 56.9 64.4 22.98 72.14
4 Rabbit Maranville 2657 2157 68.61 51.64 23.79 72.02
5 Dave Bancroft 1877 1861 56.78 60.5 18.49 67.89
6 Bill Dahlen 2471 2158 63.3 51.23 20.24 67.39
7 Honus Wagner 2754 1913 66.93 48.61 18.76 67.15
8 Jack Glasscock 1743 1632 49.61 56.92 19.58 63.06
9 Luis Aparicio 2508 2508 59.67 47.58 18.57 62.91
10 Germany Smith 1717 1668 45.27 52.73 23.54 60.77
11 Mark Belanger 1723 1708 50.19 58.26 12.4 60.42
12 Art Fletcher 1465 1414 42.62 58.18 18.59 59.7
13 Marty Marion 1492 1492 46.04 61.72 11.43 59.59
14 Dave Concepcion 2254 2054 54.74 48.57 14.5 58.91
15 Bob Allen 609 609 24.84 81.58 10.78 58.6
16 Pee Wee Reese 2083 1980 49.45 47.48 16.94 56.93
17 Bobby Wallace 2347 1819 49.92 42.54 19.81 56.13
18 Garry Templeton 1928 1900 46.1 47.82 17.97 55.95
19 Hughie Jennings 1267 904 35.21 55.58 19.86 55.33
20 Billy Jurges 1707 1504 41.86 49.05 19.7 55.3

Left Field
DP-Rk First Last PRG PsPRG CAR PRO PEAK Rating
1 Rickey Henderson 2672 2245 54.4 40.72 33.9 64.51
2 Jimmy Sheckard 2077 1826 51.25 49.35 17.34 58.97
3 Fred Clarke 2201 2185 44.61 40.54 20.4 52.77
4 Carl Yastrzemski 2728 1822 43.47 31.87 17.86 46.6
5 Jacque Jones 720 436 20.52 57 7.45 42.48
6 Jose Cruz 2052 1328 34.69 33.81 13.87 41.19
7 Sherry Magee 2022 1586 33.1 32.74 16.52 41.18
8 Garret Anderson 1359 832 28.35 41.72 12.2 41.14
9 Al Simmons 2131 1349 32.45 30.46 19.31 41.11
10 Zack Wheat 2270 2268 33.77 29.75 15.87 39.7
11 Joe Hornung 1129 1058 24.08 42.66 11.52 39.13
12 Goose Goslin 2144 1900 31.57 29.45 15.94 38.48
13 Kevin McReynolds 1401 961 25.15 35.9 14.74 37.9
14 Luis Gonzalez 1879 1866 30.46 32.42 12.74 37.81
15 Joe Medwick 1789 1726 29.47 32.95 10.41 36.41
16 Joe Sommer 950 584 18.46 38.86 15.07 36.2
17 George Burns 1811 1228 28.41 31.37 10.36 35.07
18 Abner Dalrymple 958 955 18.32 38.25 12.57 34.57
19 Walt Wilmot 980 775 18.62 38 12.49 34.56
20 Barry Bonds 2571 2401 31.69 24.65 12.71 34.53

Center Field
DP-Rk First Last PRG PsPRG CAR PRO PEAK Rating
1 Andruw Jones 1251 1156 57.24 91.51 19.06 83.91
2 Tris Speaker 2740 2721 77.6 56.64 32.96 83.6
3 Max Carey 2440 1616 75.32 61.74 25.94 81.5
4 Paul Blair 1643 1594 58.5 71.21 22.34 76.03
5 Richie Ashburn 2095 1964 59.71 57 24.68 70.7
6 Curt Welch 1151 1102 37.99 66.01 18.28 61.14
7 Curt Flood 1651 1651 48.78 59.09 12.26 60.07
8 Lloyd Waner 1770 1624 47.01 53.12 18.05 59.09
9 Devon White 1814 1655 44.45 49.01 22.71 58.08
10 Willie Mays 2855 2756 57.64 40.38 16.14 57.08
11 Mike Cameron 1099 1070 34.32 62.46 16.02 56.4
12 Amos Otis 1861 1773 42.24 45.39 18.68 53.16
13 George Gore 1323 1185 34.06 51.49 19.77 52.66
14 Taylor Douthit 1037 992 31.15 60.08 13.94 52.58
15 Paul Hines 1518 1253 32.58 42.92 28.8 52.15
16 Dwayne Murphy 1180 1115 33.05 56.02 14.49 51.78
17 Lance Johnson 1315 1259 34.38 52.29 16.67 51.67
18 Cy Seymour 1513 1115 36.81 48.66 17.36 51.41
19 Jim Busby 1167 1162 32.64 55.94 14.11 51.34
20 Brett Butler 2046 1890 44.78 43.77 13.96 51.26

Right Field
DP-Rk First Last PRG PsPRG CAR PRO PEAK Rating
1 Al Kaline 2453 1899 52.27 42.62 17.87 56.38
2 Paul Waner 2279 2188 46.74 41.02 19.66 53.71
3 Orator Shaffer 851 820 24.42 57.39 19.95 50.88
4 Tony Oliva 1146 1109 33.7 58.81 7.84 50.18
5 Brian Jordan 1214 870 31.98 52.69 14.87 49.77
6 Tony Gwynn 2188 2004 37.81 34.56 25 48.69
7 Hugh Nicol 900 820 25.26 56.13 14.92 48.16
8 Roberto Clemente 2383 2309 41.89 35.16 18.86 47.95
9 Chief Wilson 1262 1020 30.05 47.62 11.69 44.68
10 Dwight Evans 2126 1948 34.01 31.99 20.42 43.21
11 Mike Mitchell 1122 907 26.35 46.97 11.59 42.45
12 Enos Slaughter 1946 1439 33.35 34.28 16.47 42.05
13 Hank Aaron 2944 2147 40.2 27.31 15.73 41.62
14 Harry Hooper 2253 2171 34.3 30.45 15.55 40.15
15 Willie Keeler 2031 1972 32.63 32.13 14.96 39.86
16 Reggie Jackson 1926 1758 30.46 31.63 16.33 39.21
17 Sam Rice 2219 1612 34.24 30.86 12.58 38.84
18 Rich Coggins 251 168 8.23 65.58 2.8 38.3
19 Sixto Lezcano 1098 973 22.91 41.73 10.08 37.36
20 Billy Southworth 1091 794 21.87 40.09 12.31 37.14

Pitchers
DP-Rk First Last PRG PsPRG CAR PRO PEAK Rating
1 Ed Walsh 375 375 11.72 18.75 5.31 17.89
2 John Clarkson 575 565 13.78 14.38 6.64 17.4
3 Doc White 385 329 9.84 15.34 5.63 15.4
4 Frank Smith 256 256 8.15 19.1 3.23 15.24
5 Cy Young 841 839 13.06 9.32 7.91 15.14
6 Will White 386 386 7.06 10.97 11.26 14.65
7 Carl Mays 459 459 9.43 12.33 3.26 12.51
8 George Bradley 545 287 8 8.81 7.55 12.18
9 Charley Radbourn 630 512 9.68 9.22 4.93 11.91
10 Charlie Buffinton 606 429 8.74 8.65 6.36 11.88
11 Greg Maddux 760 760 10.82 8.54 4.15 11.76
12 Tony Mullane 810 583 8.58 6.36 8.53 11.73
13 Carl Hubbell 385 385 7.71 12.02 3.29 11.51
14 Freddie Fitzsimmons 471 471 8.11 10.33 3.78 11.11
15 Hooks Dauss 405 405 6.87 10.18 3.84 10.44
16 Bob Caruthers 670 331 8.47 7.59 4.56 10.31
17 Hal Schumacher 327 327 6.15 11.28 2.88 10.16
18 Jim McCormick 538 499 6.67 7.44 4.85 9.48
19 Harry Howell 461 359 6.41 8.34 3.92 9.34
20 Christy Mathewson 615 608 7.37 7.19 4.00 9.28

Please ignore that goofy guy that snuck into 19th in the right fielders list...he barely made the 250 PRG cut to get considered and damnit...he had a funky career rate...LOL Those kinds of things happen when you're trying to catch everyone you think you need to and be fair to the shorter careers out there...obviously my confidence is lowest for the SP list because of the low PRG counts and low scoring rates involved...pitchers' fielding is the least important defensive skill on the diamond by far making it hard to pick up with perfect accuracy...but the guys on my list all have reputations as good fielders, so I'm at least in the ballpark.

And other than a blip or two...I think these lists are very reasonable...I'll leave that in the judgment of the readers...I was actually pretty pleased with this though...

What do you guys think?

[Murderers Row]

C- Schalk
1B- Keith Hernandez
2B- Mazzeroski
3B- Schmidt/Robinson, too close to call
SS- Smith
LF- Yaz
CF- Mays
RF- Kaline
P- Kaat

[Imapotato]

C-Schalk...not even close
1b-Wally Pipp (only known as the guy who let Gehrig in not for his great D)
2b-Mazeroski
3b-Brooks Robinson
SS-Maranville
LF-Jimmy Sheckard (was a true CF playing LF...great player)
CF-Max Carey (slight edge over Speaker, he played LF/RF...but he should have played CF all the time)
RF-Paul Waner
P-Who cares really...let's say Cy Young :)

[Kenny14]

All-Time Defensive Team
1B: Hernandez (didn’t like him, but he was smooth as silk)
2B: Maz (no one turned the double play better)
3B: Boyer (as in Clete, better than Brooks, brother Ken, and Santo, but never got the recognition)
SS: Smith (Ozzie could dive and get to his feet quicker than anyone)
OF: Carey (I wish I could have seen him play. What impressive stats)
OF: Ashburn (maybe the best I ever saw)
OF: Mays (incredible skills, and what a jump he got on the ball, although Flood came close)
C: Schalk (relying on the opinions of others on this one)
P: Gibson (Kaat and Maddox have more hardware, but Gibson gets the nod)

And yes, this is already posted in the "Opinions" thread.

[STLCards2]

After reading the "Does Tom Glavine belong" thread, I have a new

All -Time Defensive team...

A

1B Sid Bream
2B Mark Lemke
SS Jeff Blauser
C Javy Lopez
3B Chipper Jones
LF Ryan Klesko
CF Otis Nixon
RF David Justice

B

1B Fred McGriff
2B Kaz Matsui
SS Walt Weiss
C Mike Piazza
3B Who was the 3rd basemen before Pendleton? He was good.
LF Lonnie Smith
CF Roger Cedeno
RF Ron Gant (I know he didn't play RF, but come on...how could you leave this guy off?

[Sockeye]

1B Keith Hernandez
2B Ryne Sandberg
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Ozzie Smith
RF Roberto Clemente
CF Andruw Jones
LF Carl Yastremski
C Ivan Rodriquez
P Greg Maddux

[baseball junkie]

This thread was started three years ago but it's the first time I've seen it, so I thought, why not?

Defensive All-Star Team:
1B Don Mattingly
2B Roberto Alomar
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Ozzie Smith
LF Barry Bonds
CF Willie Mays
RF Roberto Clemente
CA Johnny Bench
SP Jim Kaat, Greg Maddux, Bob Gibson, Ron Guidry, Christy Matthewson

[1905 Giants]

1B Keith Hernandez
2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Lou Boudreau
LF Al Simmons
CF Tris Speaker
RF Roberto Clemente
C Ray Schalk
SP Bob Gibson

[Bill Burgess]

Just came across an old SABR publication, and thought you guys might find it intriguing.

SABR's 'Baseball Research Journal', 1980, pp. 45.
Survey by SABR members.

[Bill Burgess]

SS comparison stats: As of 1994 for Ripken.

Player----FA-L.%------Po/G div.L.%-------A/G div.L.%-------DP/G div. L.%
O.Smith----+.014--------+22%----------------+34%------------+19%
Wagner-----+.023--------+14%-----------------+1%------------+17%
Jennings---+.005--------+29%----------------+11%------------+31%
Aparico----+.008--------+33%----------------+14%------------+22%
Ripken-----+.013--------+17%----------------+22%------------+28%
Maranville-+.011--------+21%----------------+15%------------+17%
Bancroft---+.003--------+26%----------------+18%------------+15%
Boudreau---+.015---------+6%-----------------+5%------------+23%
Yount------+.000--------+26%----------------+18%------------+25%
Banks------+.007--------+20%----------------+14%------------+12%
Cronin-----+.002---------+1%-----------------+8%-------------+8%
Vaughan----+.002---------+1%-----------------+8%-------------+3%
------------------------------------------------------------------------
These stats are taken from the book:
Baseball's All-Time Dream Team, by John P. McCarthy, Jr., 1994, pp. 50.

Wish he had included Herman Long, Bobby Wallace, Glenn Wright,
Marty Marion, George Mcbride, & Omar Vizquel. Anyone want to take a
stab at including them. Hard stat work anybody?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
DWS per 1000 innings, career DWS, career DWS multiplied by DWS/1000
(gives a good idea of total defensive greatness, shown as DWSR defensive
Win Shares rating) and FRAA. It includes those SSs in McCarthy's chart,
those Bill wished were included, and some personal additions. WS data for
Vizquel is through 2001, FRAA is as of right now:

......................DWS/1000......CDWS....FRAA
Ozzie Smith..........6.42...........139.8.....288
Honus Wagner.........6.89...........116.9.....197
Hughie Jennings......7.68............60.2.....103
Luis Aparicio........5.47...........122.8......93
Cal Ripken...........5.69...........115.2.....208
Rabbit Maranville....6.42...........123.2.....149
Dave Bancroft........6.20...........102.9.....107
Lou Boudreau.........6.49............87.2.....132
Robin Yount..........5.09............66.3.......5 (only at SS)
Ernie Banks..........4.51............44.8......53 (only at SS)
Joe Cronin...........5.90............94.6......58
Arky Vaughan.........5.55............72.4......70
Herman Long..........6.40...........101.9......67
Bobby Wallace........5.46............87.5.....154
Glenn Wright.........5.80............52.0......13
Marty Marion.........7.32............97.5.....132
George McBride.......6.11............87.8.....128
Omar Vizquel.........5.10............76.6......89
Dave Concepcion......6.37...........116.9.....105
Joe Tinker...........7.28...........112.2.....176
Bill Dahlen..........6.82...........128.0.....182

These statistics generally go with the natural perception of the players. The only exceptions would be Aparicio and Vizquel, who are still shown to be good, just not as good as the perception, and Glenn Wright, who FRAA has as a below average shortstop.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Souder contibuted his PCA for SSs.


I'll start by including my answer to the DWS chart...defensive GI for shortstops:

The top 30 greatest SSs of all time by PCA/GI
First Last HOF Rk PsPRG Career Rate Mastery TOTAL Ps
Ozzie Smith Y 1 2455 73.49 65.08 52.47 191.04 SS
Honus Wagner Y 2 1913 60.52 47.93 48.63 157.08 SS
Mark Belanger N 3 1708 53.37 58.49 45.16 157.03 SS
Joe Tinker Y 4 1725 52.26 56.53 42.16 150.95 SS
Herman Long N 5 1805 51.28 53.31 37.55 142.14 SS
George Davis Y 6 1372 47.98 42.06 49.87 139.91 SS
Robin Yount Y 7 1461 50.80 39.39 49.48 139.67 SS
Luis Aparicio Y 8 2508 56.81 47.42 34.88 139.10 SS
Rabbit Maranville Y 9 2157 55.95 43.69 38.79 138.42 SS
Bill Dahlen Y 10 2158 56.19 47.83 33.49 137.51 SS
Tony Fernandez N 11 1513 45.62 46.31 44.74 136.68 SS
Marty Marion N 12 1492 42.76 52.15 41.18 136.10 SS
John Ward Y 13 833 40.01 41.31 52.97 134.29 SS
Dave Concepcion N 14 2054 50.74 46.11 36.73 133.59 SS
Phil Rizzuto Y 15 1535 42.94 51.54 38.77 133.24 SS
Scott Fletcher N 16 734 36.52 47.43 48.91 132.86 SS
Neifi Perez N 17 909 34.44 52.24 46.08 132.76 SS
Pee Wee Reese Y 18 1980 47.67 46.16 38.71 132.55 SS
Dave Bancroft Y 19 1861 45.08 47.36 38.40 130.84 SS
Lou Boudreau Y 20 1507 41.38 49.35 38.02 128.74 SS
Luke Appling Y 21 2188 50.11 44.32 33.55 127.98 SS
Joe Cronin Y 22 1809 44.70 45.69 36.56 126.95 SS
Jack Glasscock N 23 1632 41.33 46.08 38.68 126.09 SS
Cal Ripken Jr. A 24 2280 52.73 36.82 35.41 124.96 SS
Everett Scott N 25 1594 40.88 48.38 34.61 123.87 SS
Roy McMillan N 26 1925 44.55 45.66 33.43 123.63 SS
Bobby Wallace Y 27 1819 45.92 40.03 37.63 123.58 SS
Jay Bell N 28 1450 39.78 41.98 39.37 121.13 SS
Garry Templeton N 29 1900 41.94 43.26 33.83 119.03 SS
Rey Sanchez N 30 875 32.47 45.41 40.97 118.85 SS

I'll take questions on any of those guys or anyone you think is missing...

For the pruposes of this thread...notice where Wagner sits...second only to Smith in defensive greatness...a lot of that is his longevity score...but nonetheless...a great great gloveman.

[brett]

C: Bench for sure and absolutely not I-Rod. Throwing out runners just did not matter much during his career because there was so much offense. I went through several of Bench's seasons and he went for stretches where he not only threw out say 10 of 12 or 20 of 25, but the only people running on him were the best. He was throwing out Brock and yes Morgan (on the 'stros) half of the time or more. Teams just stopped running on him, and he had stretches of 30 games without a successful steal attempt. In games when he wasn't catching, guess what? The opposition went 2-2 on the backup very regularly.

IB: Hernandez without question in my book, but who cares? Defense at IB provides very little variation from the best to the worst. Helton is also underrated. He simply makes plays which others don't and for 2-3 years, the errors that I can remember all came on plays which others wouldn't have had a shot at-such as charging a bunt and going to second and the 2Bman didn't handle it and he got the error.

2B: Mazeroski. Next Frank White.

SS: Smith

3B: Robinson

OF: Speaker, Mays and maybe Andrew Jones if you don't care about position.

[Bill Burgess]

2B Stat Comparison Chart:

Player-----FA.Minus L.%---PO/G Div L.%---A/G div. L.%---DP/G div L%
Lajoie-------+.014--------+18%----------+7%-------------+58%
Collins-------+.015--------+17%----------+2%-------------+16%
Gehringer----+.010-------- -1%-----------+7%-------------+11%
Morgan------+.004--------+10%---------+10%--------------+1%
Hornsby----- -.003------- -14%-----------+3%--------------+2%
Frisch-------+.006---------+3%-----------+6%--------------+7%
Sandberg----+.008---------+2%----------+20%-------------+00%
Grich--------+.006--------+16%----------+15%-------------+23%
--------------------------------------------------------------------
These stats are taken from the book:
Baseball's All-Time Dream Team, by John P. McCarthy, Jr., 1994, pp. 50.

Wish the author had included these guys in his chart: J.Robinson, Alomar, Biggio, Carew, J.Gordon, Kent, N.Fox, Maz, Evers, McPhee, Schoendienst, Bobby Lowe.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris comes through with another of his excellent stat comparison charts.

Here you go Bill, only with the guys you listed:

............DWS/1000.....CDWS.......FRAR......FRAA
Lajoie........4.69...........85.7..........535.... ...157
Collins........4.55..........107.5........518..... ...88
Gehringer....4.49...........86.8.........515...... ..49
Morgan.......4.22...........90.8.........521...... ..-4
Hornsby......3.06...........41.5.........325...... ..-73
Frisch.........5.42...........83.9.........586.... ....143
Sandberg....5.16............89.0.........476...... ..85
Grich..........5.68............85.8.........524... .....128
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
And Matt Souders comes through with flying colors too! This is getting GOOD!

Top 30 second basemen of all time by the GI method...any of the players Bill listed that do not appear in my top thirty I'll list at the end of this chart:
First Last HOF Rk PsPRG Career Rate Mastery TOTAL Ps
Bid McPhee Y 1 2127 66.99 64.49 51.64 183.12 2B
Bill Mazeroski Y 2 2052 64.01 63.00 51.54 178.55 2B
Frankie Frisch Y 3 1739 57.41 52.93 50.58 160.92 2B
Frank White N 4 2025 59.27 56.56 43.83 159.65 2B
Nellie Fox Y 5 2254 60.46 55.42 39.20 155.08 2B
Bobby Grich N 6 1685 50.54 52.64 50.78 153.96 2B
Nap Lajoie Y 7 2074 57.60 48.88 39.36 145.84 2B
Bobby Lowe N 8 1332 46.44 49.94 48.91 145.29 2B
Eddie Collins Y 9 2635 61.01 47.95 35.73 144.69 2B
Red Schoendienst Y 10 1768 49.63 50.16 42.66 142.45 2B
Johnny Evers Y 11 1687 48.01 53.41 40.50 141.92 2B
Joe Gordon N 12 1501 44.03 53.17 43.13 140.33 2B
Billy Herman Y 13 1790 49.05 51.15 38.05 138.25 2B
Bobby Doerr Y 14 1838 47.41 50.56 35.88 133.85 2B
Fred Pfeffer N 15 1546 43.34 49.52 40.33 133.19 2B
Willie Randolph N 16 2084 50.37 48.74 30.81 129.92 2B
Lou Whitaker N 17 2132 49.69 47.12 29.19 126.00 2B
Del Pratt N 18 1660 41.52 45.63 37.86 125.00 2B
Glenn Hubbard N 19 1279 33.72 47.73 39.25 120.70 2B
Lonny Frey N 20 929 33.79 45.55 40.93 120.27 2B
George Cutshaw N 21 1483 36.70 46.69 35.79 119.18 2B
Charlie Gehringer Y 22 2179 47.23 43.47 27.25 117.95 2B
Hughie Critz N 23 1439 35.44 46.33 35.80 117.56 2B
Claude Ritchey N 24 1487 38.98 45.63 32.44 117.06 2B
Hobe Ferris N 25 1017 32.55 45.31 37.40 115.26 2B
Max Bishop N 26 1163 30.25 46.01 37.42 113.68 2B
Ferna. Vina N 27 995 28.38 47.35 37.88 113.62 2B
Ted Sizemore N 28 1225 32.04 45.14 35.51 112.69 2B
Tommy Helms N 29 1070 30.47 44.48 37.26 112.20 2B
Ryne Sandberg Y 30 1921 42.51 41.37 27.95 111.83 2B
Joe Morgan Y 75 2422 39.39 31.07 22.49 92.95 2B
Rogers Hornsby Y 96 1523 30.80 28.92 25.96 85.68 2B

Again...I'm open to question or comments.

[sturg1dj]

here is a very basic question......can players of the past compete with players of the present?

for the most part I say no, but not in all cases.

but I will say I don't think bull-legged Honus Wagner could be a SS in today's game.

the players most of you listed were the best of their time, but if I am a pitcher I would want:

1b - Don Mattingly (maybe J.T. Snow)
2b - Roberto Alomar
3b - Brooks Robinson
SS - Ozzie Smith
RF - Al Kaline
CF - Willie Mays (I don't think Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones could have made "the catch"
LF - pre-roid Barry Bonds
C - Brad Ausmus (or Johnny Bech)

I know many of you will hate these picks, but like I said....if I was pitching who would I want behind me.

and P - Greg Maddux



and let me say this

I don't care who was the best when their stats are put in historical perspective, I wanna know who if they were on the field at this moment would be the best.

the one that was the hardest was Alomar over Maz, but I cam't see Maz covering more ground than Maz. And I don't care about what the stats say, I just don't see Maz doing it....sorry

[christian gentleman]

p - walter johnson
c - thurman munson
1b - lou gehrig
2b - eddie collins
3b - brooks robinson
ss - honus wagner
lf - joe jackson (where triples go(went) to die)
cf - willie mays
rf - roberto clemente

[HDH]

.................................................. .........
Please ignore that goofy guy that snuck into 19th in the right fielders list...he barely made the 250 PRG cut to get considered and damnit...he had a funky career rate...LOL Those kinds of things happen when you're trying to catch everyone you think you need to and be fair to the shorter careers out there...obviously my confidence is lowest for the SP list because of the low PRG counts and low scoring rates involved...pitchers' fielding is the least important defensive skill on the diamond by far making it hard to pick up with perfect accuracy...but the guys on my list all have reputations as good fielders, so I'm at least in the ballpark.

And other than a blip or two...I think these lists are very reasonable...I'll leave that in the judgment of the readers...I was actually pretty pleased with this though...

What do you guys think?

To save space, I didn't copy the entire post: This is very good work; what is your source?

I have reservations adjusting statistics by era because the baseline is always in flux and should not be considered fixed. However, I've been compiling defensive statistics and came up with similar results. I'm not complete and C is far too jumbled; so far, this is how it's starting to look:


C Gary Carter
C Bill Rariden

1B Bill Buckner (I'm surprised as anyone)
1B Mark Grace
1B Keith Hernandez
1B Jiggs Donahue

2B Bid McPhee
2B Bill Mazeroski
2B Hughie Critz
2B Ryne Sandberg

SS Ozzie Smith
SS Rabbitt Maranville
SS Dave Bancroft
SS George McBride

3B Craig Nettles
3B Brooks Robinson
3B Mike Schmidt
3B Buddy Bell

RF Ichiro Suzuki
RF Paul Waner
RF Dave Parker

CF Richie Ashburn
CF Andruw Jones
CF Dwayne Muphy

LF Bobby Veach
LF Zach Wheat
LF Max Carey (Surprise)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best Single Season Defense:

Decade POS T/B Team Age Player Name Exp Year G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO AVG SB OFF G PO A E DP TC PB DEF
1960 C R/L HOU 30 Edwards, Johnny 9 1969 151 496 52 115 20 6 6 50 53 69 .232 2 513 151 1135 79 7 9 1221 10 1285
1990 C R/R SEA 27 Wilson, Dan 4 1997 146 508 66 137 31 1 15 74 39 72 .270 7 617 144 1050 72 6 14 1128 1 1201
1900 1B L/L CHI 27 Donahue, Jiggs 5 1907 157 609 75 158 16 5 1 68 28 55 .259 27 602 157 1846 140 12 78 1998 2192
1920 1B L/L BOS 26 Todt, Phil 2 1926 154 599 56 153 19 12 7 69 40 38 .255 3 613 154 1755 126 22 117 1903 2102
1920 2B R/S STL 28 Frisch, Frankie 9 1927 153 617 112 208 31 11 10 78 43 10 .337 48 870 153 396 641 22 104 1059 1760
1940 2B R/R DET 30 Priddy, Jerry 8 1950 157 618 104 171 26 6 13 75 95 95 .277 2 740 157 440 542 19 150 1001 1655
1930 3B R/R SLB 24 Clift, Harlond 4 1937 155 571 103 175 36 7 29 118 98 80 .306 8 872 155 198 405 34 50 637 1024
1970 3B R/L CLE 26 Nettles, Graig 3 1971 158 598 78 156 18 1 28 86 82 56 .261 7 715 158 159 412 16 54 587 1021
1980 SS R/S SDP 25 Smith, Ozzie 3 1980 158 609 67 140 18 5 0 35 71 49 .230 57 575 158 288 621 24 113 933 1619
1920 SS R/R STL 22 Thevenow, Tommy 2 1926 156 563 64 144 15 5 2 63 27 26 .256 8 574 156 371 597 45 98 1013 1618
1930 RF R/L PHI 25 Klein, Chuck 3 1930 156 648 158 250 59 8 40 170 54 50 .386 4 1150 156 362 44 17 10 423 443
1980 RF R/L PIT 26 Parker, Dave 5 1977 159 637 107 215 44 8 21 88 58 107 .338 17 863 159 389 26 15 9 430 435
1950 CF R/L PHI 24 Ashburn, Richie 4 1951 154 643 92 221 31 5 4 63 50 37 .344 29 815 154 538 15 7 6 560 567
1920 CF R/R STL 27 Douthit, Taylor 5 1928 154 648 111 191 35 3 3 43 84 36 .295 11 759 154 547 10 9 4 566 562
1930 LF R/R CLE 22 Vosmik, Joe 2 1932 153 621 106 194 39 12 10 97 58 42 .312 2 830 153 432 12 5 4 449 455
1980 LF L/R OAK 21 Henderson, Rick 2 1980 158 591 111 179 22 4 9 53 117 54 .303 100 834 157 407 15 7 1 429 431

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top 25 Season Assists for 1B:

Year Last First Stint Tm Lg POS G PO A E DP PB TC
1985 Buckner Bill 1 BOS AL 1B 162 1384 184 12 140 1580
1990 Grace Mark 1 CHN NL 1B 153 1324 180 12 116 1516
1991 Grace Mark 1 CHN NL 1B 160 1520 167 8 106 1695
1986 Bream Sid 1 PIT NL 1B 153 1320 166 17 107 1503
1983 Buckner Bill 1 CHN NL 1B 144 1366 161 13 132 1540
1982 Buckner Bill 1 CHN NL 1B 161 1547 159 12 89 1718
1986 Buckner Bill 1 BOS AL 1B 138 1067 157 14 104 1238
2003 Helton Todd 1 COL NL 1B 159 1418 156 11 149 1585
1949 Vernon Mickey 1 CLE AL 1B 153 1438 155 14 168 1607
1905 Tenney Fred 1 BSN NL 1B 148 1556 152 32 68 1740
1985 Murray Eddie 1 BAL AL 1B 154 1338 152 19 154 1509
1952 Fain Ferris 1 PHA AL 1B 144 1245 150 22 124 1417
1943 York Rudy 1 DET AL 1B 155 1349 149 15 105 1513
2000 Helton Todd 1 COL NL 1B 160 1326 149 7 142 1482
1987 Hrnandz Keith 1 NYN NL 1B 154 1298 149 10 110 1457
1986 Hrnandz Keith 1 NYN NL 1B 149 1199 149 5 115 1353
1993 Palmero Rafael 1 TEX AL 1B 160 1388 147 5 133 1540
1993 Karros Eric 1 LAN NL 1B 157 1335 147 12 118 1494
1997 King Jeff 1 KCA AL 1B 150 1217 147 5 135 1369
1979 Hrnandz Keith 1 SLN NL 1B 160 1489 146 8 145 1643
1942 York Rudy 1 DET AL 1B 152 1413 146 19 117 1578
1987 O'Brien Pete 1 TEX AL 1B 158 1233 146 11 118 1390
1998 Helton Todd 1 COL NL 1B 146 1164 146 7 156 1317
1987 Murray Eddie 1 BAL AL 1B 156 1371 145 10 146 1526
1960 Power Vic 1 CLE AL 1B 147 1177 145 5 145 1327

[Bill Burgess]

Could everyone who has posted an All-time Defensive All-Star Team here, please transfer that team to the "Member's Official Opinions" Thread?

That would help facilitate progress. Thanks.

Bill

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38137

[SABR Matt]

My apologies HDH...I didn't see your post here until tonight.
The source is my own work...I have discussed the results and general philosophy behind that work here at Fever over the last couple of years, but the underlying system is called PCA (Pythagorean Comparative Analysis)...I rate players in terms of wins created much the way Bill James does with his win shares by starting with the success of the team and determining how credit should doled out to the players. The system is not the same as win shares...I made a number of very different choices, particularly in basing my analysis of pitching and fielding on DIPS theory rather than directly on pitchers' runs allowed and an arbitrary credit division between pitchers and fielders...I still plan on fully documenting PCA here at fever in the sabermetrics forum, I have just been swallowed up with other sabermetric research and with my college courseload and research appointment, but suffice to say, PCA took me several months to develop and two years to improve to the point where it is now.

Now what you'll see me quote when asked where I rank players is the GI (Greatness Index) method...which takes PCA win created data and looks at career win totals, win scoring rates, wins above a dominance threshold, and the best half of each player's career and combines those elements to get a picture of the player's overall greatness. The defensive lists you see here are a little outdated I believe...I'm not sure if I posted the most current GI defensive leaderboards in this thread or elsewhere, but the overall look is similar.
First Last HOF Rank PsEqG Career Rate Mastery TOTAL Ps
Ivan Rodriguez A 1 1620 53.66 59.93 54.01 167.60 C
Gary Carter Y 2 1931 52.17 50.73 44.18 147.08 C
Bob Boone N 3 2031 47.52 46.89 33.56 127.97 C
Johnny Bench Y 4 1631 44.83 45.25 36.55 126.62 C
Lance Parrish N 5 1716 42.83 47.14 36.47 126.44 C
Thurman Munson N 6 1239 36.76 48.91 36.18 121.85 C
Tony Pena N 7 1811 42.24 45.31 29.99 117.54 C
Al Lopez N 8 1704 37.43 42.31 29.08 108.81 C
Carlton Fisk Y 9 2087 44.19 41.86 22.72 108.77 C
Johnny Edwards N 10 1287 32.49 44.25 31.88 108.61 C
Lou Criger N 11 962 27.53 44.43 36.23 108.18 C
Jim Hegan N 12 1449 33.95 43.04 30.98 107.96 C
Jim Sundberg N 13 1774 37.76 41.45 25.32 104.54 C
Rollie Hemsley N 14 1362 32.57 43.00 27.77 103.34 C
Del Crandall N 15 1359 32.28 42.58 27.94 102.80 C
Gabby Hartnett Y 16 1684 36.07 40.79 25.49 102.36 C
Mike Scioscia N 17 1263 31.34 43.50 26.44 101.28 C
Mike Matheny N 18 948 24.90 42.22 32.62 99.74 C
Brad Ausmus N 19 1320 29.81 41.03 27.27 98.12 C
Earl Battey N 20 990 25.24 41.91 30.21 97.35 C

That, for example is the most current catchers fielding leaderboard.

[KBwsb]

C-Pudge
1B-Vic Power
2B-Maz
SS-Ozzie
3B-Brooks (although Clete Boyer was his equal for a time)
LF-Yaz/young Bonds
CF-Tris Speaker
RF-Ichiro?, Larry Walker
P-Maddux

(HM-Mark Belanger, Andruw Jones, Roberto Alomar, Vizquel, Honus Wagner, Kent Hrbek, Jim Kaat, Clemente, Devon White)

[RuthMayBond]

C-Pudge
1B-Vic Power
2B-Maz
SS-Ozzie
3B-Brooks (although Clete Boyer was his equal for a time)
LF-Yaz/young Bonds
CF-Tris Speaker
RF-Ichiro?, Larry Walker
P-Maddux

(HM-Mark Belanger, Andruw Jones, Roberto Alomar, Vizquel, Honus Wagner, Kent Hrbek, Jim Kaat, Clemente, Devon White)Pretty nice list :clapping but Alomar, Vizquel, and Kaat are overrated

[plask_stirlac]

Dave Parker twice? Once in voting and once in a stat system. Not that the system's bad, but I would never insert Parker for his glove from any large pool of RFs.

I would say the (more or less) consensus infield, Bonds-Jones-Ichiro. Sleepers aren't very good under harsher statistical scrutiny. Mass observation has worked well for the best of the best fielders.

[RuthMayBond]

Dave Parker twice? Once in voting and once in a stat system. Not that the system's bad, but I would never insert Parker for his glove from any large pool of RFs.Maybe for a brief peak but I wouldn't see him among the all-timers

<I would say the (more or less) consensus infield, Bonds-Jones-Ichiro.>

What about Mays and Clemente? Ichiro could be tops if you
1) Give him credit for Japanese League, AND
2) Give him credit for the rest of his ML career.

<Sleepers aren't very good under harsher statistical scrutiny.>

You don't like Fred Tenney, Mickey Doolan, George Cutshaw, Robin Ventura, Fielder Jones, Jimmy Sheckard, or Mel Ott?

[Bill Burgess]

I am re-opening this thread.

But I still request everyone posts their all time defensive teams to this thread.
Official Opinions Thread.
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38137

Bill Burgess

[RuthMayBond]

I am re-opening this thread.

But I still request everyone posts their all time defensive teams to this thread.
Official Opinions Thread.
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38137

Bill BurgessI hope proctor is watching :waving:hyper:

[Proctor, CF]

I hope proctor is watching :waving:hyper:

Yeah, who you got in Center? Dom?:rolleyes: I'm thinking about Scipio Spinks on the mound.

[RuthMayBond]

Yeah, who you got in Center? Dom?:rolleyes: Why don't you post your own list before you criticize mine which is already posted

<I'm thinking about Scipio Spinks on the mound.>

You can have him

[Bill Burgess]

Would anyone else like to contribute their Defensive All-Time Teams, A & B?

[STLCards2]

C: Rodriguez/Bench
1B: Hernandez/Connor
2B: McPhee/ Mazerowski
SS: Smith/Bellanger
3B: Robinson/ Nettles
LF: Yaz/ Shekard
CF: Jones/ Speaker
RF: Kaline/Waner
P: Mays/ Maddux