How about Bernie?

[Eddie Collins]

.305
241 HR
1062 RBI
1,950 H
372 2B
143 SB
1143 R

4 GG
1 Batting Title
129.5 HOF monitor

[J W]

There is quite a division over Bernie. Some feel he has always been underrated as a player, and without him the Yankees would not have been the dynasty they turned out to be. Others feel he is overrated, did not play defense as well as his record states, and should not even be considered for the Hall.

About the HOF Monitor: Bernie's score is nice but not anything incredibly special. He is in the company of players like Don Mattingly, Steve Garvey, and Dave Parker... the very people who are stuck on the ballot these days. His HOF Standards score is 43.6, around where you find Andre Dawson, Dwight Evans, and Cupid Childs. There are roughly 20 active players with a higher score than either of his.

This means that he hasn't been dominant enough during his career without a lengthy and productive one... and he hasn't gotten to that point yet.

I'm keeping an eye on him. His career is not over yet and these next five years will go a long way toward his case with the writers. I can see him taking a complete nosedive one year, considering all his injuries lately; but I can also see him going on for a ways. I can also see him finishing his career as a DH, and that brings a whole new element into the equation.

[The Commissioner]

Bernie also has a few more things in his favor:

- 7 consecutive seasons of 100+ RBI
- 5 seasons of 100+ RBI
- 8 consecutive seasons .300+ BA
- 4 Gold Gloves
- 4 WS rings

The thing working against him at this point is, as JW pointed out, the length of his career. So far he hasn't been dominant enough over a short period of time and doesn't have a long enough career to have put up massive career totals. In a few years, if he continues to produce, and his runs scored, RBI, HR, and hit totals continue to pile up he should very well have a legitimate candidacy. He has quietly compiled a very impressive Hall of Fame resume, but he really needs to continue to add to it.

[Brad Harris]

If Williams could put up another 4-5 years of 90+ R/RBI, a .300 avg and 25 HR, while continuing to play above average defense in center field and staying healthy, I believe I'd be willing to advocate his election.

Williams was rarely a league leader and very often not even among the league leaders. He's not been a particularly good baserunner and his defense, while not yet porous, has declined significantly from his prime. Williams' offensive production from a corner outfield spot or DH won't be enough to solidify a strong candidacy and I fear that a very underrated, underappreciated player will miss out on the Hall of Fame. Sadly...I don't think he'll make it, nor (probably) should he. But he's a helluva ballplayer and I'd love to have him on our team.

Ironically, Kenny Lofton (who'd been given up for dead just a few years ago) has rejuvenated his career and sparked hope for a minor candidacy when it's his turn. Three years ago I'd have said Williams was likely to draw some votes and Lofton will be off on the first ballot. I'm beginning to think it might end up the other way.

I'm not optimistic about the remainder of Williams' career.

[Eddie Collins]

How much will the NY factor play in?

[The Commissioner]

Originally posted by Eddie Collins
How much will the NY factor play in?

The added visibility of playing on the Yankees may help him, but on the other hand I could also see it working against him. He hasn't been that one standout player on all those WS Yankee teams garnering the spotlight. Rather he's faded into the background behind Jeter, Clemens, et al. Had he been the singular standout player on lesser ballclubs he may have perhaps been in the spotlight more. Then again, it begs the chicken/egg question of whether the Yankees won due to him or whether his numbers are due to playing on the Yankees? Hopefully if he continues to produce and compile Hall of Fame calibre numbers, that question will be rendered moot in a few years.

[hudsonharden]

Originally posted by Eddie Collins
How much will the NY factor play in?

Sadly, it will probably work to his advantage.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Originally posted by hudsonharden
Sadly, it will probably work to his advantage.

Not in recent years. You can count Yankee award winners on one hand for the last two decades.

[NOMAR22]

How much will the NY factor play in?

Alot ,he will play his entire career as a NEW YORK YANKEE. That means alot.Plus he has good stats to back him up,plus 4 Wrld Series Rings, And being a member of the greatest Baseball franchise ever helps to.

[julusnc]

When I think of Bernie Williams he reminds me of another New York Yankee outfielder that was great in his day but will always have to buy a ticket to the HOF and he is Bobby Murcer.

[538280]

Murcer was a great player at his peak but other than that was only fair. Williams has been consistent year in year out and posted a very good year every year 1994-2002. Williams is better than Murcer, and IMO you don't have to be that much better than Murcer to be a HOFer.

[NOMAR22]

Murcer was a great player at his peak but other than that was only fair. Williams has been consistent year in year out and posted a very good year every year 1994-2002. Williams is better than Murcer, and IMO you don't have to be that much better than Murcer to be a HOFer.

Yes. Bernie Wlliams has been consistant and was better than Bobby Murcer.

[RedSoxVT92]

I believe you could make an argument on Bernie Williams Postseason stats to get in to the HOF. Leads in postseason in games, tied for AB's, runs,Total Bases, Doubles, HR, RBI, extra base hits, and times on base. And is second in hits, BB, and singles. Also has a ALCS MVP. But if he was not on the yankees and not had got in to all those postseason appeances (played in 24 postseason series) He probably would not be a real contender for the HOF for he was not dominant in his regular season playing career. (only 4 black ink and 61 grey ink)

[538280]

I believe you could make an argument on Bernie Williams Postseason stats to get in to the HOF. Leads in postseason in games, tied for AB's, runs,Total Bases, Doubles, HR, RBI, extra base hits, and times on base. And is second in hits, BB, and singles. Also has a ALCS MVP. But if he was not on the yankees and not had got in to all those postseason appeances (played in 24 postseason series) He probably would not be a real contender for the HOF for he was not dominant in his regular season playing career. (only 4 black ink and 61 grey ink)

I honestly can't stand ink tests, and I can't believe anyone could possibly think Bernie Williams wasn't dominant in the regular season. Bernie from 1997 to 2002 had a 140 or higher OPS+ every year, and he did that while providing the best CF in the league (graded A+ by Defensive Win Shares, 4 Gold Gloves). His career OPS+ is 127. For a CFer in the modern game, that's a very, very good total. Plus, he's been an outstanding clubhouse influence and was a key member (probably the best player of) one of the greatest teams of all time

Bernie Williams has been a great underrated player. He deserves the HOF.

[digglahhh]

Does anybody else have the suspicion that Bernie's career is very similar to what Larry Walker's would look like had he not played in Coors?

Bernie has the postseason heroics working for him

Walker was probably the better overall player- a true five tooler for several years whose overall game was overlooked becaue of the intense scrutiny of his triple crown stats because of Coors.

[dl4060]

Bernie has been a fine player, and he is close. I do not feel he has been dominant enough, but part of that might be the era he has played in. While it is always difficult to judge, we do have more elite players now than we had in the 1980's. Bernie may also be benefit from the current sterioid allegations. He has been one of the classiest players in baseball his entire career, and played the game the right way. Bernie always struck me as a guy who would be just as content hitting a ground ball to the right side to advance a runner to third, and then watching that runner score on a sac fly to win the game, as he would hitting a walk-off homer. Obviously I am exaggerating, but the Yankee teams of the late 90's seemed to me to ooze that "team first" attitude. Jeter is the same way. Bernie embodied that spirit as well as anyone. He is part of the reason those teams were greater than the sum of their parts, which stands in sharp contrast to the last few Yankee teams.

[BoSox Rule]

I'd say he needs three more 6 WARP seasons to get some serious consideration since he **** the bed when he was 34. I don't see him doing that but I do greatly appreciate him as a player. Look at WARP from 1996-2002.

1996: Bernie 8.9, Jeter 5.3
1997: Bernie 8.6, Jeter 6.3
1998: Bernie 9.2, Jeter 9.1
1999: Bernie 10.9, Jeter 11.0
2000: Bernie 8.2, Jeter 7.8
2001: Bernie 9.0, Jeter 6.9
2002: Bernie 8.0, Jeter 6.9

Nobody realizes Bernie was the Yankees best player during their Dynasty years.

[NOMAR22]

Bernie has been a fine player, and he is close. I do not feel he has been dominant enough, but part of that might be the era he has played in. While it is always difficult to judge, we do have more elite players now than we had in the 1980's. Bernie may also be benefit from the current sterioid allegations. He has been one of the classiest players in baseball his entire career, and played the game the right way. Bernie always struck me as a guy who would be just as content hitting a ground ball to the right side to advance a runner to third, and then watching that runner score on a sac fly to win the game, as he would hitting a walk-off homer. Obviously I am exaggerating, but the Yankee teams of the late 90's seemed to me to ooze that "team first" attitude. Jeter is the same way. Bernie embodied that spirit as well as anyone. He is part of the reason those teams were greater than the sum of their parts, which stands in sharp contrast to the last few Yankee teams.

Well said.

[Chisox]

I'd say he needs three more 6 WARP seasons to get some serious consideration since he **** the bed when he was 34. I don't see him doing that but I do greatly appreciate him as a player. Look at WARP from 1996-2002.

1996: Bernie 8.9, Jeter 5.3
1997: Bernie 8.6, Jeter 6.3
1998: Bernie 9.2, Jeter 9.1
1999: Bernie 10.9, Jeter 11.0
2000: Bernie 8.2, Jeter 7.8
2001: Bernie 9.0, Jeter 6.9
2002: Bernie 8.0, Jeter 6.9

Nobody realizes Bernie was the Yankees best player during their Dynasty years.
I've realized it all along and have been stating such. I would advocate Bernie for the HOF. I wouldn't be too suprised or mad/sad if he did not make it, but I do think he deserves it. I view him as a top 20 all-time CF with his post-seasons making him somewhere around 15.

Using the above list: The 4 championships of WARPs add up to 37.2-33.2 or 1 a season difference.

[digglahhh]

Does anybody have an opinion on my Bernie is what Larry Walker would look like with a career outside of Coors theory?

Also, do you think Bernie has a better case than Larry?

Does the postseason success outweigh the fact that Walker was a slightly better all around player?

[Chisox]

Does anybody have an opinion on my Bernie is what Larry Walker would look like with a career outside of Coors theory?

Also, do you think Bernie has a better case than Larry?

Does the postseason success outweigh the fact that Walker was a slightly better all around player?
I don't know about the same player, but I've got them about equal. Maybe exchange Bernie's consistency with Walker's running.

[julusnc]

Bernie Williams falls into the same group with Paul O'Neill, Bobby Murcer, and Craig Nettles.All were great all-star players and team leaders but not HOFers.

[538280]

Bernie Williams falls into the same group with Paul O'Neill, Bobby Murcer, and Craig Nettles.All were great all-star players and team leaders but not HOFers.

Nettles is a lot closer than a lot of people realize. Personally, I see little that separates him and Brooks Robinson. Brooks was a better fielder, but Nettles was a better hitter. IMO, the fielding and hitting difference between them is about equal.

Nettles was a great fielder (one of the greatest ever at his position), a very good hitter who had very good power (top 5 in the 70s in home runs) and walked a lot. He didn't have a good BA, but he did everything else well.

[NOMAR22]

Nettles is a lot closer than a lot of people realize. Personally, I see little that separates him and Brooks Robinson. Brooks was a better fielder, but Nettles was a better hitter. IMO, the fielding and hitting difference between them is about equal.

Nettles was a great fielder (one of the greatest ever at his position), a very good hitter who had very good power (top 5 in the 70s in home runs) and walked a lot. He didn't have a good BA, but he did everything else well.

Someday Craig Nettles will be a HOF. I saw him play. One of the greatest 3rd basemens ever. And he had power to!

[digglahhh]

I don't know about the same player, but I've got them about equal. Maybe exchange Bernie's consistency with Walker's running.

Well, I've just been trying to get a picture of what Walker's career would look like, statistically outside of Coors to get a better picture of his HOF worthiness. I think that Bernie's career is a pretty good prediction in this sense.

[Chisox]

Well, I've just been trying to get a picture of what Walker's career would look like, statistically outside of Coors to get a better picture of his HOF worthiness. I think that Bernie's career is a pretty good prediction in this sense.
I'm not disagreeing, I just haven't thought about it like that before. I'd say that as hitters Walker would probably have about the same regular seasons stats as Williams.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Someday Craig Nettles will be a HOF. I saw him play. One of the greatest 3rd basemens ever. And he had power to!
But Graig Nettles will never make it to the HOF. I saw him play. I even watched him play in a celebrity tennis tournament with Steve Garvey and Bob Uecker. A fine third baseman with power, but never a superstar. There is nothing wrong with just being a good player.

[Chisox]

But Graig Nettles will never make it to the HOF. I saw him play. I even watched him play in a celebrity tennis tournament with Steve Garvey and Bob Uecker. A fine third baseman with power, but never a superstar. There is nothing wrong with just being a good player.
Quite frankly I've got Nettles as one of the top 10 3B of all-time. I don't ever remember seeing him play, but combining his offense and defense, I think makes for a VERY compelling case.

[RuthMayBond]

Quite frankly I've got Nettles as one of the top 10 3B of all-time. I don't ever remember seeing him play, but combining his offense and defense, I think makes for a VERY compelling case.Depends upon whether we include Killebrew, Dandridge, Molitor, DAllen, EMartinez, TPerez ...

[Captain Cold Nose]

Quite frankly I've got Nettles as one of the top 10 3B of all-time. I don't ever remember seeing him play, but combining his offense and defense, I think makes for a VERY compelling case.
When Nettles was playing, there was Schmidt and Brett and a significant drop off. By the time Wade Boggs came around, the chasm became more apparent. I'm not taking anything away from Nettles, he was a very good player for some very good teams, but you'll have a hard time selling a .248 batting average to the great majority of baseball fans, the ones who are the ones mostly going the the actual museum.
A closer look reveals not much of a significant difference, looking at all aspects of the player, between Brooks Robinson and Nettles. But for whatever reason Robinson was held in higher regard. The Fame factor that is sneered at but seems to somehow resonate with the people who actually vote.

[538280]

When Nettles was playing, there was Schmidt and Brett and a significant drop off. By the time Wade Boggs came around, the chasm became more apparent. I'm not taking anything away from Nettles, he was a very good player for some very good teams, but you'll have a hard time selling a .248 batting average to the great majority of baseball fans, the ones who are the ones mostly going the the actual museum.
A closer look reveals not much of a significant difference, looking at all aspects of the player, between Brooks Robinson and Nettles. But for whatever reason Robinson was held in higher regard. The Fame factor that is sneered at but seems to somehow resonate with the people who actually vote.

Nettles was a great player. Forget the BA, look at everything else he did. You'll find he did everything else just about as well as it could be done. Then there's the BA that draggs him down, but IMO not enough. In any way I measure players, Nettles is probably better than Brooks, though I rate Brooks ahead because of contemporary respect (as much as I hate it, I have to consider it sometimes)

Nettles is HOF quality player, but if what you say about him never being regarded as that good is true, I'm not sure if I can endorse him as a HOFer.