Al Oliver - Hall of Famer?

[Brad Harris]

Al Oliver had more than 2,700 hits and a .303 lifetime average. He also had more than 500 doubles and 1,300 RBI, playing most of his career in neutral or pitcher's parks from 1968-85.

He was a 7-time all star and finished in the top ten in MVP voting several times. He won a World Championship ring with Pittsburgh in 1971.

His career numbers are not dissimilar to Jim Rice except that Oliver hit for average while Rice hit for more power. Oliver's closest career comparison is Steve Garvey (using similarity scores), but what's interesting is that Kirby Puckett - a first-ballot Hall of Famer - retired at the age of 34 with a career most similar to Al Oliver's through the same age. The difference? Puckett retired because of the glaucoma while Oliver continued to play another 4-5 seasons. In fact, Oliver's next season (at age 35 in 1982) is arguably the best season of his career.

Garvey is a popular Hall of Fame candidate. So is Rice. And Puckett was a first-ballot electee?

Why is Al Oliver ignored so much? I believe he should receive some consideration by the Veterans Committee next time. It's too bad this wonderful hitter hasn't been remembered much.

Does anyone else remember Oliver? Does anyone else think he should receive more than a cursory glance, if the likes of Garvey/Rice are considered serious candidates? Does anyone have an educated guess as to why Oliver didn't receive more attention when he became eligible? I mean the guy received a paltry 19 votes out of 444 (4%) in his only year on the ballot.

I think he unfairly got the shaft without the benefit of any real consideration by the writers. Anyone agree? Disagree?

[Captain Cold Nose]

I was an Al Oliver fan. I remember watching him win the batting title while with the Expos. (1982, as mentioned as his best season by Chancellor.) That was a fun team to watch.

I have never understood why Oliver has been so unappreciated. He produced year-in, year-out. Maybe if he was still with Pittsburgh when they won it in 1979 instead of playing with Texas would he have received a little more notice. They guy wasn't flashy, but he was a fine ballplayer. I'd rank him just above Cecil Cooper and on par with Lou Whitaker as someone the HOF voters tragically ignored in recent years.

He deserved far better.

[altan]

No Flash. Al's weakness was that he didn't stand out and he didn't fit in. He didn't hit for very much power, so his HR total is seriously low, so he didn't fit well in the heart of the lineup. He didn't draw a lot of walks and was a fairly slow runner, so he couldn't bat at the front of the lineup. And what contender seriously wants to pay the salary of a perennial lifetime .300 hitter to have them bat in the bottom of your lineup (other than Boston and NY, that is)? So he consistently got stuck with poor or mediocre teams who didn't have anyone better, and that also contributed to him not getting either a lot of runs or RBIs. He's yet another player who comes close, but falls just short due the circumstance of where he played. He falls into the same category as a Mark Grace, who is also a very good ball player who'll never see the inside of the hall without buying a ticket.

Now Jimmy Rice, man did I love him and those old Red Sox. They made me the fan that I have remained to this day. Go Red Sox! Spike the Bambino! But he needed just one more good year to make the cut. He was almost there when his big new contract kicked in and he decided to coast to an early retirement. &*@$&(%)!!! I hate players like that, god forbid Javy get a big long term contract even if he did carry my fantasy team when Piazza broke his pinky nail!

[Eddie Collins]

He won't make it.:waving

[Cougar]

Chancellor summarizes Oliver's case really well, and I totally agree that Oliver deserves much more consideration.

He doesn't mention one salient fact, however -- Oliver was primarily a center fielder throughout his twenties, and played a plurality of his career games there.

He was just an ordinary fielder in CF (perhaps someone can chime in here who actually saw him play CF -- I'm just old enough to remember him as a corner OF/1b), but it's generally agreed that one gets extra credit for playing a skill defensive position well. CF is on the easier end of the hard positions, usually ordered in roughly this order:

C...SS...2b...CF...3b...RF...1b...LF...DH.

Sometimes people say LF is harder than 1b, or 3b is harder than CF. That's debatable, but there's really three tiers:

Hard, primarily defensive: C, SS, 2b

In-between positions, defensive and offensive responsibilities: CF, 3b

Easier positions, primarily offensive: RF, 1b, LF

CF and 3b have a hard time in HOF voting because their responsibilities are a little protean and outside of guys like Mays, Mantle, and Schmidt, it's rare to get the player who's no-questions-asked qualified on both sides of the ledger.

I think CF is even a little trickier because it's exceedingly rare for someone to play a full career there. Once a productive CF loses a step, he tends to get moved to a corner pretty quickly, which tends to make people forget he was a CF (as many do with Oliver, for example, or Andre Dawson).

Also, just another point of information, Oliver was the regular CF on the 1971 WS champion Pirates, less famous than the 1979 team, but probably as good or better. His fellow OF were Clemente and Stargell; I'd stack that OF (Stargell-Oliver-Clemente) up against just about any other one in history.

[The Commissioner]

I actually remember being shocked the year Oliver fell short on the Hall of Fame ballot. I didn't expect him to get elected that year, but to not even receive the minimum number of votes to remain eligible was mind boggling to me.This struck me as one of those cases of the sports writers having short term memory. Perhaps he was hurt but playing the later half of his career with several different ballclubs rather than racking up his impressive career totals in one city where he may have drawn more media attention?

I'd actually take issue with altan's assessment of Oliver's HR total as being "seriously low". Yes, it's low for a power hitter, but 219 is a decent amount for someone with a career batting average over .300. Consider this, he has the same career batting average as Rose, with 27% more homeruns. Obviously, I'm not saying he was the same calibre player that Rose was, but you can see that his home run numbers also aren't paltry by comparison. As a matter of fac,t he also has a similar amount of RBI to Rose with 5000 fewer at bats. Once again, it may not be fair to compare the two on such a limited basis, but it does point out that Oliver did posses a decent power/average combination.

[altan]

Commish, I respect ya man, but that total is an average of less than 12 HRs per year and fewer than 30 doubles. He broke 100 RBIs twice and 100 runs never. Not the numbers for a 3, 4 or 5 hitter, and not the speed for a 1 or 2. If a .303 BA and 12 HRs alone would get you into the Hall of Fame, then Mark Grace is a shoe in. And comparing an alleged heart of the lineup hitter's RBIs to a leadoff hitters isn't really a good idea, as I'm sure in the back of your mind you were aware. We won't even cover the HR's of a contact hitting leadoff man to those of the guy supposed to drive him in.

Oliver had a nice career and was a very good and consistent batter. He didn't really have anything else going for him. And for once I'm happy to see a very good player not get enshrined with the very great players. Can't a guy have a good career without being a HoFer? No offense intended, but he just doesn't belong in the class of the greats, much like a good third of the guys who are there already, unfortunately. But you may take issue with me if you wish. I've got a girlfriend, so I'm used to it. :)

FIRE GRADY LITTLE!!!

[Brad Harris]

Originally posted by altan
...I'm happy to see a very good player not get enshrined with the very great players. Can't a guy have a good career without being a HoFer?

Oh...absolutely.

My outrage is directed at people who would vote in Mark Grace (to beat a dead horse, as an example here) but don't give Al Oliver one ounce of consideration. There'll be some sportswriters who pull this kind of shenanigan soon enough, with Grace retiring this year.

And not just Grace, but Garvey or any other number of similar players. I can concede Rice was better on account of more walks/power and an MVP Award; makes for a better case.

My best guess is that Oliver's late career was spent at first base for the Rangers and Expos - two teams which received scant attention in the late 1970s, early 1980s.

Other than that, I'm at a loss. As Cougar pointed out, I remember Oliver as the line drive-hitting first baseman for Montreal "back in the day."

I'm not arguing that Oliver should be elected per se, but that others who are clearly similar (or not as good) somehow receive greater support - and inexplicably so. Well...inexplicably if the answer isn't related to the fact that most of the more-hyped players spent years in Los Angeles, Chicago or New York as opposed to places like Pittsburgh, Arlington, TX and Montreal.

[The Commissioner]

Like I said, 219 homers is low for a power hitter and perhaps can be considered low for a Hall of Famer. I guess it's just a matter of semantics, but I don't consider to that be a low total in general terms. I also don't want to give the wrong impression. I'm not necessarily pushing Al Oliver for Cooperstown either. However, I do feel he deserves a lot more credit and consideration in voters' minds than he ever received. I could definitely understand if Oliver had remained on the ballot for twenty years and never made it. However, to have been kicked off the island after only one year was an injustice. He won a batting title, an RBI title, was a sevn time All-Star selection, is 25th all-time in doubles, has 2700+ hits and career .300+ BA and yet only received 19 votes? That was just wrong.

[altan]

Yeah, I'll give ya that. He gave enough to the game that he deserved to at least be given the respect that many lesser players have been shown. And I'll be next in line to boycott if Grace gets in just because people seem to like him better. Just exactly who did Oliver spit on to deserve lesser treatment than Grace, who is probably a lesser player based on career achievements? Perhaps it was just the markets he played in, but sports writers cover all markets, so that shouldn't be an excuse, unless they knew that people wouldn't notice their lack of respect to a player in those markets. I guess we just don't know how much what the general public thinks and supposedly knows affects their voting. If they knew he would never get in and knew there would be no great cry of outrage, then perhaps they decided to just get it over with quickly instead of having to keep it up for 20 years. But here's to you, Oliver. You had a very good career, and probably had the potential to be a HoFer had you been in the right place. CHEERS!

[buccosfan]

I watched Al Oliver play many times in the 70's for the Pirates. And I remember when the trade rumors started to spread, he finally spoke out and said "What do they want?". At the time I think he had a bout a .290 lifetime average. He bettered that (to his great credit) in the AL. I remember him as a fine fielder, not a gold glover, but you felt good about Al in center

He just was not the type of player who could strike fear (at least while at Pittsburgh) in the opponents or give his team the big boost it needed. His numbers are definitely there. For my money, I'd say he's close, but he's gonna be overlooked because of the sub-300 home-run total, and Clemente and Stargell, and to a lesser extent Parker and Sanguillen overshadowed him in his prime years.

To me, his numbers and his play were better than Barry Larkin, but I'll bet Larkin gets more consideration when his time comes, because of being a Shortstop.

[Brad Harris]

How does Oliver stack up against other center fielders, though?

Here's some food for thought:

Oliver's 1,341 (career) Runs Created (RC) are the most by a center fielder from 1961-1999. That's almost four full decades!

If you go back one year, to 1960, then Willie Mays jumps ahead of Oliver. If you go forward one year, to 2000, Ken Griffey Jr. does.

But essentially, what this tells me is that Oliver was the most productive center fielder in baseball between Mays and Griffey.

If that's the case, isn't that a powerful argument for his election?

[Brad Harris]

Most Career Runs Created, 1961-1999, by position

C - Carlton Fisk (1,362 RC)
1B - Pete Rose (2,205 RC)
2B - Joe Morgan (1,804 RC)
SS - Robin Yount (1,644 RC)
3B - George Brett (1,869 RC)
LF - Carl Yastrzemski (2,127 RC)
CF - Al Oliver (1,341 RC)
RF - Dave Winfield (1,796 RC)
DH - Paul Molitor (1,869 RC)

Now...dare I be premature in suggesting that, once eligible, Molitor and Rose will both be elected, leaving Oliver as the only player on this list who isn't in the Hall of Fame.

[J W]

That's a great case, but you can see the reason why he wasn't voted in: Other than Fisk, who plays the most specified defensive position out there, he has created quite a few less runs than the rest. That includes the middle infield and hot corner.

He'll always have some sort of shot at it as long as the VC exists; not a good one right now or in the near future, but it's there.

Where would his career Runs Created / Win Shares rank among HOFers?

[buccosfan]

Weren't you listening?????? He never made a mark in his prime years!!!!! THAT IS WHY HE WON"T GET IN!!!


TONY PEREZ IS A FLUKE!

In the words of Neil Young...

"Red means run, Son, numbers add up to nothing"


Believe IT

[NOMAR22]

Yeah, I'll give ya that. He gave enough to the game that he deserved to at least be given the respect that many lesser players have been shown. And I'll be next in line to boycott if Grace gets in just because people seem to like him better. Just exactly who did Oliver spit on to deserve lesser treatment than Grace, who is probably a lesser player based on career achievements? Perhaps it was just the markets he played in, but sports writers cover all markets, so that shouldn't be an excuse, unless they knew that people wouldn't notice their lack of respect to a player in those markets. I guess we just don't know how much what the general public thinks and supposedly knows affects their voting. If they knew he would never get in and knew there would be no great cry of outrage, then perhaps they decided to just get it over with quickly instead of having to keep it up for 20 years. But here's to you, Oliver. You had a very good career, and probably had the potential to be a HoFer had you been in the right place. CHEERS!

Mark Grace is in no way a HOF. Al Oliver was better.

AVG. G AB R H 2B 3B HRS RBI OBP SLG
AL Oliver.303 2,368 9,049 1,189 2,743 529 77 219 1,326 .344 .451
M.Grace .303 2,245 8,065 1,179 2,445 511 45 173 1,146 .383 .442

Al Oliver 5 times 90 or more runs ,0-100 or more runs 2 200 hits season,
8 times over 180 hits,2 100 rbi season,8 times 80 rbi season,2 times hit 20 or more hrs,11 times batted .300 over season,5 times hit over.320 season,lead league 1982 hits,rbis,avg,mvp season.

Mark Grace 3 times 90 or more runs,1 time 100 runs,0 200-hits season, 7 times 180 hits season,0 times 100 rbis season,6 times 80 rbi season,0-times hit 20 more hrs,9 times batted over.300,3 times batted over.320 season ,never lead the league in hits,rbis or avg.only in 2b.

[Tigerfan1974]

'Fraid not, Sorry Al! :waving

[dgarza]

I'd like to add that, even though he was not flashy or a stand out, Al Oliver was a 7 time All-Star. He won Silver Slugger at 3 different "positions". How many players have done that?

[dgarza]

My general HOF queue for CFers (not exactly sure were I draw the line):

Pete Browning
Andre Dawson
Dale Murphy
Al Oliver
George Van Haltren
Jimmy Ryan
Lip Pike
George Gore
Vada Pinson
Mike Donlin
Wally Berger
Ginger Beaumont
Fred Lynn

[cavalier1968]

Buddy Bell was....the best defensive 3b I ever saw.....


Cav

[Fuzzy Bear]

Oliver has one of the most oddly truncated careers of any player to have a realistic HOF case. He started out as a first baseman, then moved RIGHTWARD on the defensive spectrum to CENTER field. That's a pretty odd shift, dontcha think? Center field requires the kind of skills that one usually doesn't find in a first baseman (speed, throwing arm). Oliver played more games at CF than any other position; he divided the rest of his career between LF and 1B. He never won a Gold Glove at any of these positions, but he was never considered to be a defensive liability, either.

There are many things said about Oliver that aren't true. People say he played on teams that didn't win, but every team but one of Oliver's won more games than they lost. He played on 4 division champs, one of which went all the way (1971). He was traded to Texas, and they never went to the playoffs, but all of Oliver's Texas teams but one posted winning records. At the end of his career with the Expos, those teams posted winning records as well.

Oliver's ultimate problem was that he didn't walk enough to compensate for losing his ability to put the bat on the ball. This was why his career declined fast; he lost the ability to get a hit, and he wasn't patient enough to keep the pitcher honest. This kept him from being more effective than he could have been; despite his BA, his OWP was .599, which is kind of low for a guy with a .300 BA in a long career. He's the kind of guy that would have been in the HOF had he made it to 3,000 hits. Here's the problem: Oliver was 257 hits away from the 3K mark at age 38. To hang in there, he would have had to have been more disciplined at the plate, but to have been more disciplined at the plate would have meant that Oliver was a better player then what he actually was. He's borderline, and he deserved more respect then he got. I'm not convinced he deserves the HOF, but I won't be bent out of shape if he ever gets there.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Al Oliver was a very good player. I don't endorse him for the HOF, but he's certainly one of the best one-and-done candidates of all-time. Speaking of which, to those of you who think he received unfair treatment as compared to Mark Grace, Grace has since gotten the one-and-done treatment as well. To those of you who compare him to Kirby Puckett, I think you have a reasonable point. Through age 35 (the age at which Puckett retired), the two have a similarity score of 923. This is appropriate in that they were truly similar players - center fielders who primarily hit for average, didn't walk much, and had reasonable, though not great, power. There are, however, some differences between them that shed light on why Puckett sailed into the HOF and Oliver never got serious consideration:

1. What they each did after age 35 was night and day different. A freak vision problem forced Puckett into a highly publicized early retirement while he was still on top of his game. Though it will remain a mystery how Puckett's decline phase would've gone, he gets remembered as the .314 hitter with 99 RBIs that he went out as. He is seen as a guy who could've reached 3,000 hits. Oliver, on the other hand, did precious little to help his cause after his big 1982 season at age 35. If I'm not mistaken, he never officially retired, but was forced out after simply going unsigned. That type of exit usually goes unnoticed. He is seen as a guy who tried for 3,000 hits and fell short.

2. Puckett was a bigger star and was perceived as a better player. I think he gets bonus points on his HOF resume from the voters for his popularity and reputation. He was literally a perennial All-Star, and was the biggest star on the World Champion Twins. Oliver, on the other hand, was a more occasional All-Star, and was merely a supporting cast member on the '71 Bucs.

Fair or not, I think that largely explains the difference in how each has been treated by the BBWAA. I brought up Al Oliver in a Dave Parker thread recently because I think he has almost as good of a HOF case as Parker, who is a serious candidate himself. I still say no to Oliver, but he's much closer than his reputation would suggest.

[henrich]

I love Al Oliver and I support his case for the HOF.

For the H-factor comparison

Name Pos H-Factor
Puckett CF 10,113
Oliver CF 10,157 I think the previous post explains why he didn't make it.
Parker RF 12,494 Off field issues?
Grace 1B 8985 wrong side of the gray area.

I think Oliver and Parker deserve enshrinement and Grace does not. Puckett barely gets in...and so should Oliver, though by the writer's votes one wouldn't know that:)

[rsuriyop]

Although I wouldn't endorse Oliver's selection into the HOF, I also wouldn't mind all that much should he ever make it in. To me, he's as much a borderline candidate as anyone. I do think, however, that there are better CFer's out there who are more worthy and probably at least as unappreciated as Oliver ever was if not more so. Reggie Smith and Jimmy Wynn are two names that come immediately to mind as they were both direct contemporaries of his. The former seemed to have virtually no weaknesses whatsoever and the latter was a power hitter who drew tons of walks.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Although I wouldn't endorse Oliver's selection into the HOF, I also wouldn't mind all that much should he ever make it in. To me, he's as much a borderline candidate as anyone. I do think, however, that there are better CFer's out there who are more worthy and probably at least as unappreciated as Oliver ever was if not more so. Reggie Smith and Jimmy Wynn are two names that come immediately to mind as they were both direct contemporaries of his. The former seemed to have virtually no weaknesses whatsoever and the latter was a power hitter who drew tons of walks.

I agree that Reggie Smith was better than Oliver; I'm not sure about Wynn, but I can be persuaded.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Although I wouldn't endorse Oliver's selection into the HOF, I also wouldn't mind all that much should he ever make it in. To me, he's as much a borderline candidate as anyone. I do think, however, that there are better CFer's out there who are more worthy and probably at least as unappreciated as Oliver ever was if not more so. Reggie Smith and Jimmy Wynn are two names that come immediately to mind as they were both direct contemporaries of his. The former seemed to have virtually no weaknesses whatsoever and the latter was a power hitter who drew tons of walks.

Reggie Smith was an awesome player who, for some reason, has become relatively obscure since retiring. At his best, he was a better player than Oliver, but I'm not so sure that he has a better HOF case. Oliver played significantly longer, did better in MVP voting, and has better black/grey ink, HOF standards/monitor scores across the board. He also came much closer to 3,000 hits than Smith did to any significant career milestone. Furthermore, as you said, Reggie Smith had great all-around skills, but he wasn't overwhelming at any one thing. It isn't necessarily fair, but guys of that breed don't usually fare well in HOF voting unless they play forever.

I'm not convinced that, at his best, Jimmy Wynn was much better than Al Oliver. His HOF case is, without question, vastly inferior to Oliver's. He did have skills that were underappreciated in his time, and he's significant to the sabermetric community in that sense, but an outfielder primarily known for his power with under 300 homers and under 1,000 RBIs has no chance at the HOF.

[Mike90]

Reggie Smith was an awesome player who, for some reason, has become relatively obscure since retiring. At his best, he was a better player than Oliver, but I'm not so sure that he has a better HOF case. Oliver played significantly longer, did better in MVP voting, and has better black/grey ink, HOF standards/monitor scores across the board. He also came much closer to 3,000 hits than Smith did to any significant career milestone. Furthermore, as you said, Reggie Smith had great all-around skills, but he wasn't overwhelming at any one thing. It isn't necessarily fair, but guys of that breed don't usually fare well in HOF voting unless they play forever.

I agree with all of this. I think Oliver has the easier argument to make for being a hall of famer because has more of the things that voters look at, a batting average above .300, over 2700 hits, and a batting title and RBI title. Smith was the better player though. Oliver has the higher BA easily -- .303 to .287 -- but Smith beats Oliver in the more important stats of OBP -- .366 to .344 -- and Slugging -- .489 to .451. Oliver's career was longer, but I think Smith has a pretty clear edge over him unless a lot of weight is given to batting average.

His OBP was only 15 points better than average, and he doesn't have anything really special to make up for that: no huge peak or incredibly long career, good but not great power, and he was never considered a great defender. Oliver was a pretty terrific player IMO though, better than a few players already in the Hall.

I'm not convinced that, at his best, Jimmy Wynn was much better than Al Oliver. His HOF case is, without question, vastly inferior to Oliver's. He did have skills that were underappreciated in his time, and he's significant to the sabermetric community in that sense, but an outfielder primarily known for his power with under 300 homers and under 1,000 RBIs has no chance at the HOF.

Bill James named Darrell Evans the most underrated player ever in his 2002 abstract, but I think Wynn probably deserves that title. He averaged 103 walks per 162 games, something that's usually not appreciated by the public, and only 89 singles leading to a .250 BA. He played in a pitchers' era in pitchers' parks for his entire career. Borderline centerfielders tend to get underrated because their position is expected to be a mixture of offense and defense (rather than just offense for a left fielder or mainly defense for catchers).

Wynn had five seasons with an OWP better than .700 with his high being .799 in 1969 when he was only 15th in the MVP voting because he batted .269. Add in his work as an outfielder, usually as a centerfielder, and he was clearly a great player in his prime. Maybe he doesn't deserve the Hall because his career was so short -- as Fuzzy pointed out he has less than 300 home runs and 1000 RBI for his career, not great totals for a power hitter in any era. I support him though (not that he has a chance of getting inducted).

[curveball]

I agree with all of this. I think Oliver has the easier argument to make for being a hall of famer because has more of the things that voters look at, a batting average above .300, over 2700 hits, and a batting title and RBI title. Smith was the better player though. Oliver has the higher BA easily -- .303 to .287 -- but Smith beats Oliver in the more important stats of OBP -- .366 to .344 -- and Slugging -- .489 to .451. Oliver's career was longer, but I think Smith has a pretty clear edge over him unless a lot of weight is given to batting average.

His OBP was only 15 points better than average, and he doesn't have anything really special to make up for that: no huge peak or incredibly long career, good but not great power, and he was never considered a great defender. Oliver was a pretty terrific player IMO though, better than a few players already in the Hall.



Bill James named Darrell Evans the most underrated player ever in his 2002 abstract, but I think Wynn probably deserves that title. He averaged 103 walks per 162 games, something that's usually not appreciated by the public, and only 89 singles leading to a .250 BA. He played in a pitchers' era in pitchers' parks for his entire career. Borderline centerfielders tend to get underrated because their position is expected to be a mixture of offense and defense (rather than just offense for a left fielder or mainly defense for catchers).

Wynn had five seasons with an OWP better than .700 with his high being .799 in 1969 when he was only 15th in the MVP voting because he batted .269. Add in his work as an outfielder, usually as a centerfielder, and he was clearly a great player in his prime. Maybe he doesn't deserve the Hall because his career was so short -- as Fuzzy pointed out he has less than 300 home runs and 1000 RBI for his career, not great totals for a power hitter in any era. I support him though (not that he has a chance of getting inducted).

Jimmy Wynn is .250 .366 .436, but jumps to .274 .394 .477 when neutralized, so that definitely lends credence to your point about him playing in a pitcher's era in pitchers' parks. He actually looks pretty good, and that OWP of .651 isn't too shabby. I think the problem is that he only had 6653 at bats for his whole career.

Reggie Smith is .287 .366 .489, and .296 .376 .504 neutralized. His *OPS+ is 137 which is very good, and his OWP is 693. He only has 7033 at bats, and that is probably holding him back.

How did Jim Rice and his *OPS+ of 128, and OWP of .627, while clearly benefiting from playing in Fenway Park get into the HoF again? :laugh

[KHenry14]

Ironic story about Scoop Oliver. He came to the Giants in 1984 with high hopes. The Giants flagship radio station had a promo that year if a certain player that year hit a HR in a selected inning a fan would win a big prize. Well, the station picked Al as the player that season who would be the player who would need to hit a HR in the selected inning. Problem is, by that time in his career Al was basically an opposite field hitter, and during the half season with the Giants that year he hit a grand total of ZERO HR's :ughh Needless to say the promo wasn't exactly a huge success that year!

[henrich]

For reference point

CF Wynn 7865
RF Reggie Smith 9426
CF Al Oliver 10,157
LF Jim Rice 11,347

As someone just accurately stated, I believe Oliver to be the epitome of a borderline candidate. Smith is just under and Wynn doesn't make it, without adjustments as noted previously.

[Cougar]

Reggie Smith played in 90% of his team games (including pinch hitting appearances, etc.) only 5 times in his career.

That is just utterly deadly to a player's HOF case. One can simply not have the showcase seasons that Hall of Fame voters want to see when you're on the DL that much/

[JPS]

It's depressing how far the Hall of Fame standards have fallen, at least in baseball-fever. For many years players like Gil Hodges, Rusty Staub, Steve Garvey and Bill Madlock have fallen short, even though their numbers far outclass many of today's modern candidates I've seen in these posts. But there's one player who's numbers are as close to HOF caliber as anyone who hasn't passed any of the usual milestones, and that player is Al Oliver. From 1968-1985 the basics are:

G: 1773
AB: 9049
H: 2743
2B: 529
RBI: 1326
Avg: .303

Further details at http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/O/Poliva001.htm

I dug up an Al Oliver HOF post from 2003, and one person's response was that Oliver had no flash and his home run output was "seriously low." :confused: Silly rabbit. Home runs aren't everything and if flash is a consideration, Deion Sanders would have been a unanimous, first-ballot choice. :ughh

Al Oliver didn't hit a lot of home runs, but he was a solid extra base hitter and was a lock to drive in 90 runs a year. He was a perfect #6 hitter, which was where he often was when he played for those great Pirate teams of the early '70s. He didn't walk much (535) but he didn't strike out much either (K/AB ratio of 1-12).and when he went to Texas and later Montreal he became a top #3 batter. Al Oliver was generally regarded as one of the toughest hitters and consistant run producers of his time for 18 years. As a first baseman and center fielder he wasn't a Gold Glover, but he didn't hurt his teams either. And he also has a World Series ring from the 1971 world champion Pirates.

If Al Oliver's numbers aren't even worthy by the Veterans Committee, why even ask about many of the players listed elsewhere here? Truth is, Oliver and Hodges' omission from the Hall of Fame is yet further proof that many of the jokers on the HOF selection committee should be run out of Cooperstown on a rail.

[Domenic]

I don't mean to seem condescending or anything, here, but you haven't done much in the way of presenting a Hall of Fame case - at least, in my eyes.

Oliver has some nice all-time ranks in hits (50th) and doubles (32nd), but that's about it. He checks in at 125th in runs created, 167th in batting average, 170th in runs, 248th in home runs, 307th in OPS+, 350th in SLG, and 740th in OBP. He's was also a middling (at best) base-runner, ranking 24th in GIDP and posting a 58% success rate stealing bases. It also appears that he was a mediocre fielder. . . and, on top of it all, he ranks 298th in WAR.

[Cowtipper]

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=11926&highlight=oliver

[JDD]

Al Oliver is a borderline case, and very good example of a player who would make the Hall of Very Good.

More than half of his career plate appearances came from the third spot in the batting order, but he took too long in finding a team which would put enough guys on base ahead of him for him to hit 100 RBI in a season.

Not really his fault, but that's the way it shook out. And he had his best season at the plate when he was 35 years old. We already made up our minds on him by then.

[dgarza]

Oliver has some nice all-time ranks in hits (50th) and doubles (32nd), but that's about it. He checks in at 125th in runs created, I think these are "plus" factors for his case.

Additionally:
72nd Total Bases
82ns Extra Base Hits

Oliver also has 305 Career Win Shares.
2nd NL ROY voting in 1969.
3 time consecutive SS winner at 3 different positions/roles.
7 time All Star.

3rd most hits during career span, 1968-1985:

Cnt Player H From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+----+
1 Pete Rose 3305 1968 1985
2 Rod Carew 2903 1968 1985
3 Al Oliver 2743 1968 1985
4 Steve Garvey 2441 1969 1985
5 Reggie Jackson 2388 1968 1985


3rd most hits in the 1970s:

Cnt Player H From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+----+
1 Pete Rose 2045 1970 1979
2 Rod Carew 1787 1970 1979
3 Al Oliver 1686 1970 1979
4 Lou Brock 1617 1970 1979
5 Bobby Bonds 1565 1970 1979


More hits than any CFer from 1959-1989.

Cnt Player H From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+----+
1 Al Oliver 2743 1968 1985
2 Vada Pinson 2731 1959 1975
3 Willie Davis 2561 1960 1979
4 Cesar Cedeno 2087 1970 1986
5 Andre Dawson 2037 1976 1989


Oliver has one of the highest BA, 9000+ PAs, not in the Hall, not active:

Cnt Player BA PA From To
+----+-----------------+-----+-----+----+----+
1 Jimmy Ryan .306 9106 1885 1903
2 Mark Grace .303 9290 1988 2003
3 Pete Rose .303 15861 1963 1986
4 Al Oliver .303 9778 1968 1985
5 Frank Thomas .301 10074 1990 2008


Oliver has one of the highest CF BA, 7000+ PAs, not in the Hall, not active:

Cnt Player BA PA From To
+----+-----------------+-----+-----+----+----+
1 George Van Haltre .316 8979 1887 1903
2 Jimmy Ryan .306 9106 1885 1903
3 Al Oliver .303 9778 1968 1985
4 Ben Chapman .302 7420 1930 1946
5 Paul Hines .302 7470 1872 1891


I know these are not overwhelming numbers, but I think they are enough to make Oliver a MAYBE candidate. He certainly needs to be brought up more often.

I am not sure why Dale Murphy won so many GGs. When I look at BBP, Murphy doesn't look that much better than Oliver in terms of defense. Oliver was a below average fielder, but Murphy could also be seen in that light.
Murphy's plus is that his peak was obviously better than Oliver's, but career wise, Oliver is not that far behind Murphy. Both have 121 OPS+ in 9000-1000 PAs, below average defense.

[Domenic]

I don't think it's quite fair to lump Oliver into the CF mix, as he played roughly half of his career between 1B/LF . . . about 40% of his career was spent at 1B.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

I can't quite go for Al Oliver for the HOF. He was a fine player, but upon closer examination didn't bring the little extra needed to get in. He wasn't an especially good fielder & never had much more than above average speed in his prime. He wasn't a big power hitter, and never hit more than 22 HR's - although he was an excellent gap hitter. Furthermore, Oliver never scored 100 runs in any single year, a bi-product of weak OBP despite a stellar career BA. Oliver also never stood out in postseason play, batting .228 / 3 / 17 in 102 PS AB's.

The lack of definable peak hurts Oliver's case as well. Outside of his excellent 1982 campaign with the Expos, when he lead the league in hits/RBI/BA, Oliver never was a league leader in any category, and only drove in 100 runs 1 other time. His peak OPS+ outside of 1982 was 137 twice. Oliver has the type of solid steady production which tends to not do well in HOF voting despite accumulating borderline HOF credentials throughout the course of a career.

All in all, I don't support Oliver for the HOF because of the above points. I put him in roughly the same category as Rusty Staub - just on the outside looking in; but a staunch NO.

[Paul Wendt]

Al Oliver is a borderline case, and very good example of a player who would make the Hall of Very Good.

More than half of his career plate appearances came from the third spot in the batting order, but he took too long in finding a team which would put enough guys on base ahead of him for him to hit 100 RBI in a season.

Maybe he played at the wrong time, easily to wow you with that three-digit number. He was a rookie with the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1969, a team that won five mini-pennants in the following six seasons, usually with a good lineup. Not great at putting people on base; much like Oliver himself, writ large.

Really it was a great situation. Oliver was only a cog, someone who benefited just as much from the team as it did from him. --considering everything in terms of finding the limelight and going down in posterity.

[Paul Wendt]

It's depressing how far the Hall of Fame standards have fallen, at least in baseball-fever. For many years players like Gil Hodges, Rusty Staub, Steve Garvey and Bill Madlock have fallen short, even though their numbers far outclass many of today's modern candidates I've seen in these posts.
My, your standards are awfully low,
falling hook, line and sinker for Hodges, Madlock, and Staub.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Oliver turned out to be the kind of guy that needed 3,000 hits to make the HOF. Had he done that, he'd be in. But he didn't do that. He was about as good as Rice, all things considered; his OWP was .599 to Rice's .629, but if you factor in Oliver's years in center field and right field, he probably has a defensive edge on Rice. (Oliver wasn't a good center fielder, but he was good enough to hold the position for a few years.)

If I want to view Oliver as a career RF (a reasonable view, given that he played more games at RF than anywhere else, and wasn't a real good CF) the question becomes one of "Why Oliver and not Dwight Evans?". Evans had a .646 OWP for his career, and he was a truly great defensive RF whose peak seasons were much better than Oliver's peak seasons. Oliver was out of gas when he retired, but Evans could have played a year or two more in a part-time role. Evans isn't at the head of the HOF line, and I go back and forth about his induction, but I can't see inducting Al Oliver when Dwight Evans, who is CLEARLY superior, and by a decent distance, is outside the HOF.

[Cougar]

...If I want to view Oliver as a career RF (a reasonable view, given that he played more games at RF than anywhere else, and wasn't a real good CF)...

This is not true...Oliver played the plurality of his games in CF (840), narrowly beating out 1b (733).

Further, when Scoop did play a corner OF position, it was usually LF (486). Oliver played only 80 career games in RF, mostly early in his career.

If you're going to give him a position, it's almost got to be CF, doesn't it? Maybe the most accurate thing would be CF-1b. But a whole lot of guys slide down the defensive spectrum as they age, so pinning a 1b tag on him seems a little gratutitous. Besides, he played 1b on the Expos -- he might have played the OF if they didn't have the best young OF in baseball (Raines-Dawson-Cromartie).

[Oliver DHed 200 games, just to fill in the last blank.]

[Fuzzy Bear]

This is not true...Oliver played the plurality of his games in CF (840), narrowly beating out 1b (733).

Further, when Scoop did play a corner OF position, it was usually LF (486). Oliver played only 80 career games in RF, mostly early in his career.

If you're going to give him a position, it's almost got to be CF, doesn't it? Maybe the most accurate thing would be CF-1b. But a whole lot of guys slide down the defensive spectrum as they age, so pinning a 1b tag on him seems a little gratutitous. Besides, he played 1b on the Expos -- he might have played the OF if they didn't have the best young OF in baseball (Raines-Dawson-Cromartie).

[Oliver DHed 200 games, just to fill in the last blank.]

I guess this is what I get for trying to go on memory. I remember Oliver playing RF for the Rangers, but that really was only 80 games.

Oliver wasn't a particularly good CF; he held the position because the Pirates had Stargell in LF, Clemente in RF, Bob Robertson at 1B, and Oliver had to play somewhere. He wasn't a joke in CF; he held the position, but he was never a threat to win a Gold Glove. Cromartie played LF in Montreal because Oliver couldn't play the outfield anymore; Cromartie was on the downside in 1982, and went to Japan in 1984. I stand by my general assessment; Dewey was more valuable on defense, and significantly better on offense. I can't see putting in Oliver before Dewey.

[Cougar]

I guess this is what I get for trying to go on memory. I remember Oliver playing RF for the Rangers, but that really was only 80 games.

Oliver wasn't a particularly good CF; he held the position because the Pirates had Stargell in LF, Clemente in RF, Bob Robertson at 1B, and Oliver had to play somewhere. He wasn't a joke in CF; he held the position, but he was never a threat to win a Gold Glove. Cromartie played LF in Montreal because Oliver couldn't play the outfield anymore; Cromartie was on the downside in 1982, and went to Japan in 1984. I stand by my general assessment; Dewey was more valuable on defense, and significantly better on offense. I can't see putting in Oliver before Dewey.

Um, I love you Fuzzy, but Cromartie shifted to RF when Raines came along.

Oliver didn't have the arm to play RF; that's why he never stuck out there. His arm was notoriously weak...I'm not sure as a result of some injury or whether it was just inherently poor.

[JPS]

My, your standards are awfully low,
falling hook, line and sinker for Hodges, Madlock, and Staub.:lightbulb:I have an idea: Why don't you go tell that to the Cooperstown tricksters who voted Bill Mazeroski into the Hall? Maz was among the best fielding second-basemen ever, but if he's a Hall-of-Famer mostly on the merit of his World Series-winning home run in 1960 (and make no mistake - he is) then Roger Maris should get top billing because his name has been mentioned more often over the last 48 years than any other player in the game. So should Bobby Thomson for that matter. After all, it IS the Hall of Fame, right?

Back to my original point (which you partially missed, incidently): The only people here who's standards are low are the ones promoting the likes of Nomar Garciaparra, Will Clark, Johnny Damon, Edgar Renteria and Curt Schilling as Hall of Famers. The players I mentioned make up the legitimate HOF adage that if you have to ask if they belong, then they don't. However, I happen to think Hodges should have gotten in at least towards the end of his 15-year window because he was a crucial part of the great Dodger teams of the '50s as well as one of the finest first-basemen ever. The Dodgers would never have won six pennants and two world championships from 1949-1959 without him.

Others would make a case for Rusty Staub, Steve Garvey, Bill Madlock, Ron Santo, Lee Smith or Bert Blyleven, but I stand by my choices...and having had the privilege of seeing Al Oliver play, I consider myself a good witness for the case. I agree that Oliver wasn't a top-shelf player, but as a veteran's committee selection, it makes sense.

[dgarza]

Oliver turned out to be the kind of guy that needed 3,000 hits to make the HOF. Had he done that, he'd be in. This is probably a good guess. Oliver always looked like a the type of batter who would hit more HRs, but he really wasn't that type of hitter, not really a typical slugger. I think that makes Oliver look more like a disappoint, when in reality he shouldn't have been viewed like that at all.

[Freakshow]

More hits than any CFer from 1959-1989.

Cnt Player H From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+----+
1 Al Oliver 2743 1968 1985
2 Vada Pinson 2731 1959 1975
3 Willie Davis 2561 1960 1979
4 Cesar Cedeno 2087 1970 1986
5 Andre Dawson 2037 1976 1989

How many hits did they actually have as Center fielders? Here are some of Oliver's contemporaries:

2435 W. Davis
1984 V. Pinson
1921 A. Otis
1761 G. Maddox
1693 F. Lynn
1627 C. Cedeno
1389 W. Wilson
1166 A. Dawson
1081 Da. Murphy
1005 A. Oliver

As has been said, Oliver spent the great majority of his career at hitter's positions: 1B, corner OF, DH. He played only 35% of his games in CF.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Um, I love you Fuzzy, but Cromartie shifted to RF when Raines came along.

Oliver didn't have the arm to play RF; that's why he never stuck out there. His arm was notoriously weak...I'm not sure as a result of some injury or whether it was just inherently poor.

I don't know why I've thought him as a RF all these years.

And Cromartie; I forgot that Ellis Valentine was traded to the Mets by the time Oliver hit Montreal. Cromartie couldn't really play RF, either.

I still say: Why Oliver if not Evans?

[Fuzzy Bear]

:lightbulb:I have an idea: Why don't you go tell that to the Cooperstown tricksters who voted Bill Mazeroski into the Hall? Maz was among the best fielding second-basemen ever, but if he's a Hall-of-Famer mostly on the merit of his World Series-winning home run in 1960 (and make no mistake - he is) then Roger Maris should get top billing because his name has been mentioned more often over the last 48 years than any other player in the game. So should Bobby Thomson for that matter. After all, it IS the Hall of Fame, right?

Back to my original point (which you partially missed, incidently): The only people here who's standards are low are the ones promoting the likes of Nomar Garciaparra, Will Clark, Johnny Damon, Edgar Renteria and Curt Schilling as Hall of Famers. The players I mentioned make up the legitimate HOF adage that if you have to ask if they belong, then they don't. However, I happen to think Hodges should have gotten in at least towards the end of his 15-year window because he was a crucial part of the great Dodger teams of the '50s as well as one of the finest first-basemen ever. The Dodgers would never have won six pennants and two world championships from 1949-1959 without him.

Others would make a case for Rusty Staub, Steve Garvey, Bill Madlock, Ron Santo, Lee Smith or Bert Blyleven, but I stand by my choices...and having had the privilege of seeing Al Oliver play, I consider myself a good witness for the case. I agree that Oliver wasn't a top-shelf player, but as a veteran's committee selection, it makes sense.

Hodges would be a Rice-ish selection if he made the HOF; he was near the very top in terms of percentage of the BBWAA vote for guys who never made it, as Rice would have been if he never made it.

One could say the same about Tony Perez. On the other hand, one could say that the Yankees of the seventies wouldn't have won any pennants without Willie Randolph or Thurman Munson. There are a lot of guys that pennant winning teams would not have won pennants without that aren't really HOF material, and Hodges is one of those guys. Will Clark was a far superior offensive player to Hodges while active.

[Cougar]

I don't know why I've thought him as a RF all these years.

And Cromartie; I forgot that Ellis Valentine was traded to the Mets by the time Oliver hit Montreal. Cromartie couldn't really play RF, either.

I still say: Why Oliver if not Evans?

I suspect your misapprehension is because left handed throwers end up in RF more often than LF.

You're right about Cro in RF...better than Oliver, but not much. Of course Valentine's arm may have spoiled the Expos a bit...teams can live with a mediocre arm in RF if they must, but following Ellis' cannon everyone seemed rag-armed.

I agree Evans > Oliver, and I don't think it's very close.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I suspect your misapprehension is because left handed throwers end up in RF more often than LF.

You're right about Cro in RF...better than Oliver, but not much. Of course Valentine's arm may have spoiled the Expos a bit...teams can live with a mediocre arm in RF if they must, but following Ellis' cannon everyone seemed rag-armed.

I agree Evans > Oliver, and I don't think it's very close.

As I recall, Oliver simply couldn't play the OF anymore by the time he went to Montreal; that's why he was moved back to 1B.

[Cougar]

As I recall, Oliver simply couldn't play the OF anymore by the time he went to Montreal; that's why he was moved back to 1B.

Could be, but if that is what happened it happened awfully abruptly.

In 1980 (age 33) Al plays 163 games, 157 in the OF (90% in LF, 10% in RF), with spot play at DH and 1b. His fielding stats were mediocre and slipping, but far from terrible. Might have indicated he needed more days off or at DH.

The next season is 1981, the strike season. Al is suddenly an exclusive DH, playing the role in 101 games out of 105 the team played. He got one inning at 1b.

1982 he's swapped to the Expos, and is exclusively a 1b, playing it more than passably, and never sees regular service in the OF again, except for one month playing with the Dodgers in 1985, his final season, when he began the season as the starting LF. By then he really couldn't play OF anymore, and since he wasn't hitting much either he lost his job by May.

Seems like something dramatic happened around 1980-81...which could have just been entering his mid-30's. Anyone know any more?

[JPS]

Hodges would be a Rice-ish selection if he made the HOF; he was near the very top in terms of percentage of the BBWAA vote for guys who never made it, as Rice would have been if he never made it.
One could say the same about Tony Perez. Fair enough. That's a reasonable point.
Will Clark was a far superior offensive player to Hodges while active.Let's check the numbers on that one.

Hodges played in 2071 games in 18 years while Clark played 1976 games in 15 years so the comparisons are fair:

Average: Clark .303, Hodges .273.
Slugging: Clark .503, Hodges .487
Runs: Clark 1186, Hodges 1105.
Doubles: Clark 440, Hodges 295
Triples: Hodges 48, Clark 47
Home Runs: Hodges 370, Clark 188
Walks: Hodges 943, Clark 937.
Strikeouts: Hodges 1137, Clark 1190.
RBI: Hodges 1274, Clark 1205
SB: Clark 67, Hodges 63.
30-home run seasons: Hodges 6, Clark 1.
40-home run seasons: Hodges 2, Clark 0.
30-double seasons: Clark 6, Hodges 0.
100-RBI seasons: Hodges 7, Clark 4.
Career fielding avg. at 1st base: Hodges .992, Clark .991.
Pennants: Hodges 7, Clark 1.
World Championship rings: Hodges 2, Clark 0.

I give Hodges the edge, but not by much. It's a fun comparison, though, isn't it? :)

[Cougar]

Fair enough. That's a reasonable point.
Let's check the numbers on that one.

Hodges played in 2071 games in 18 years while Clark played 1976 games in 15 years so the comparisons are fair:

Average: Clark .303, Hodges .273.
Slugging: Clark .503, Hodges .487
Runs: Clark 1186, Hodges 1105.
Doubles: Clark 440, Hodges 295
Triples: Hodges 48, Clark 47
Home Runs: Hodges 370, Clark 188
Walks: Hodges 943, Clark 937.
Strikeouts: Hodges 1137, Clark 1190.
RBI: Hodges 1274, Clark 1205
SB: Clark 67, Hodges 63.
30-home run seasons: Hodges 6, Clark 1.
40-home run seasons: Hodges 2, Clark 0.
30-double seasons: Clark 6, Hodges 0.
100-RBI seasons: Hodges 7, Clark 4.
Career fielding avg. at 1st base: Hodges .992, Clark .991.
Pennants: Hodges 7, Clark 1.
World Championship rings: Hodges 2, Clark 0.

I give Hodges the edge, but not by much. It's a fun comparison, though, isn't it? :)

Clark had 284 HR: 188 in the NL, 96 in the AL...you copied off the wrong line.

[Cougar]

Clark had 284 HR: 188 in the NL, 96 in the AL...you copied off the wrong line.

I apologize for being a stickler, but there's more than a trivial difference between 188 career HR and 284 career HR.

[brett]

There was serious talk late '84 that Oliver had a good chance to reach 3000 hits AND have a lifetime .300 batting average and that that combination would make it impossible to keep him out of the hall of fame. He also had a run of 9 straight .300 seasons going at that time (though officially '83 was not a true .300 season at .29967 just as Ted Williams would not have been a .400 hitter if he had gone .3995 or better. Its a myth).


By the way, Hodges is no where near my Hall of fame level, but I will mention that at least historically he is in a unique position.

Take a look at the all time home run leaders through 1961:

Ruth 714
Foxx 534
Williams 521
Ott 511
Gehrig 493
Musial 444
Snider 384 age 34
Mantle 374 through age 29
Mathews 370 age 29
Kiner 369
Hodges 361 through age 37
Dimaggio 361
Mize 359
Berra 340 through age 36
Greenberg 331
Mays 319 through age 30
Simmons 307
Hornsby 301
Klein 300

Hodges was 11th all time, but he is the only player from among the 19 guys with 300 home runs at the time who did not get into the hall of fame. If you add Banks who topped 300 the next year, he is the only one of the first 20 to hit 300 not to get in.


Things I find interesting: Mantle and Mathews were 8th and 9th all time and were not 30 when the season began.

Mays was older than Mantle but 55 home runs behind at the time.

If you take Mantle's home runs through age 29 season, and Mays' from age 30 and beyond, you get 755!

[Philly-brownsfan]

I clearly remember the deciding game of the 1985 playoffs between Kansas City and Toronto. Oliver started at DH or 1B but then in about the fifth inning when KC brought in a lefty pitcher Oliver was taken out of the lineup by Blue Jays manager, Bobby Cox in favor of a righty hitter. With the playoffs on the line and the chance to go into the World Series, instead of just keeping quiet and accepting the move, Oliver picked that moment to have a swearing, screaming meltdown.
This occured one or two days after Oliver's 39th birthday, and although he had a relatively good year and the fact that he was only three years removed from a National League batting title....at that point Oliver's career was over. He never played in another MLB game.
No owner wanted to employ him again and give him a chance to get the 240 some hits he needed to reach 3,000, with that kind of deportment and
me-first attitude. He was really the antithesis of a good team player in that instance (and probably at other less dramatic times in his career). When a player puts his personal situation over that of his team when it's in a do or die game, then there's something wrong with that player. Possibly in part because of the distraction Oliver created, Toronto went on to lose that game and that ALCS.
With 2757 hits, a .303 average and around 250 home runs, statistically Oliver would appear to have some decent Hall Of Fame qualifications, but on a personal level, Oliver isn't even close to making the Hall and never was.

[dgarza]

There was serious talk late '84 that Oliver had a good chance to reach 3000 hits AND have a lifetime .300 batting average and that that combination would make it impossible to keep him out of the hall of fame. That would be hard to ignore. I wish he would have reached that mark. Too bad he didn't. He only reached 2700+ hits with a .300+ BA.

But let's look at that list. I love Al Oliver, but he just kinda sticks out from the group (or does he?):
2700+ hits, .300+ BA, (OF, 1B, DH)

Cnt Player OPS+ H BA From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+----+
1 Babe Ruth 207 2873 .342 1914 1935
2 Lou Gehrig 179 2721 .340 1923 1939
3 Ty Cobb 167 4189 .366 1905 1928
4 Stan Musial 159 3630 .331 1941 1963
5 Tris Speaker 158 3514 .345 1907 1928
6 Willie Mays 156 3283 .302 1951 1973
7 Hank Aaron 155 3771 .305 1954 1976
8 Mel Ott 155 2876 .304 1926 1947
9 Sam Crawford 144 2961 .309 1899 1917
10 Cap Anson 141 3418 .333 1871 1897
11 Jesse Burkett 140 2850 .338 1890 1905
12 Paul Waner 134 3152 .333 1926 1945
13 Tony Gwynn 132 3141 .338 1982 2001
14 Al Simmons 132 2927 .334 1924 1944
15 Roberto Clemente 130 3000 .317 1955 1972
16 Zack Wheat 129 2884 .317 1909 1927
17 Goose Goslin 128 2735 .316 1921 1938
18 Willie Keeler 126 2932 .341 1892 1910
19 Jake Beckley 125 2930 .308 1888 1907
20 George Sisler 124 2812 .340 1915 1930
21 Al Oliver 121 2743 .303 1968 1985
22 Sam Rice 112 2987 .322 1915 1934

[BigRon]

Oliver has one of the most oddly truncated careers of any player to have a realistic HOF case. He started out as a first baseman, then moved RIGHTWARD on the defensive spectrum to CENTER field. That's a pretty odd shift, dontcha think? Center field requires the kind of skills that one usually doesn't find in a first baseman (speed, throwing arm). Oliver played more games at CF than any other position; he divided the rest of his career between LF and 1B. He never won a Gold Glove at any of these positions, but he was never considered to be a defensive liability, either.

Oliver moved to CF in the early 70s after the Pirates traded Matty Alou, and Bob Robertson was coming on very strong. For a couple of years it looked like Robertson would become a major home run force and he could only play 1B. So, Oliver became a CFer sort of by default. He had a good bat, was a good athlete, and had enough talent and skill to play CF- although not more than adequately.

Even though Oliver played more games at CF than anywhere else, it seems to me to be a bit misleading to characterize him as a CFer. He played quite a few more games combined at 1B and LF- where he fit better.

Al was a good player for a long time. He wouldn't get my vote for the HOF, but he was better than several enshrined there.

I'd probably rate Vada Pinson slightly higher than Al, but he wouldn't make it either. For a few years it appeared that Pinson would be a HOFer, but he regressed and became just a good player for quite a few years. Better defense than Oliver, though.

[Philly-brownsfan]

That would be hard to ignore. I wish he would have reached that mark. Too bad he didn't. He only reached 2700+ hits with a .300+ BA.

But let's look at that list. I love Al Oliver, but he just kinda sticks out from the group (or does he?):
2700+ hits, .300+ BA, (OF, 1B, DH)

Cnt Player OPS+ H BA From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+----+
1 Babe Ruth 207 2873 .342 1914 1935
2 Lou Gehrig 179 2721 .340 1923 1939
3 Ty Cobb 167 4189 .366 1905 1928
4 Stan Musial 159 3630 .331 1941 1963
5 Tris Speaker 158 3514 .345 1907 1928
6 Willie Mays 156 3283 .302 1951 1973
7 Hank Aaron 155 3771 .305 1954 1976
8 Mel Ott 155 2876 .304 1926 1947
9 Sam Crawford 144 2961 .309 1899 1917
10 Cap Anson 141 3418 .333 1871 1897
11 Jesse Burkett 140 2850 .338 1890 1905
12 Paul Waner 134 3152 .333 1926 1945
13 Tony Gwynn 132 3141 .338 1982 2001
14 Al Simmons 132 2927 .334 1924 1944
15 Roberto Clemente 130 3000 .317 1955 1972
16 Zack Wheat 129 2884 .317 1909 1927
17 Goose Goslin 128 2735 .316 1921 1938
18 Willie Keeler 126 2932 .341 1892 1910
19 Jake Beckley 125 2930 .308 1888 1907
20 George Sisler 124 2812 .340 1915 1930
21 Al Oliver 121 2743 .303 1968 1985
22 Sam Rice 112 2987 .322 1915 1934


That list is composed of All first basemen or outfielders - Traditionally the top hitters positions.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I clearly remember the deciding game of the 1985 playoffs between Kansas City and Toronto. Oliver started at DH or 1B but then in about the fifth inning when KC brought in a lefty pitcher Oliver was taken out of the lineup by Blue Jays manager, Bobby Cox in favor of a righty hitter. With the playoffs on the line and the chance to go into the World Series, instead of just keeping quiet and accepting the move, Oliver picked that moment to have a swearing, screaming meltdown.
This occured one or two days after Oliver's 39th birthday, and although he had a relatively good year and the fact that he was only three years removed from a National League batting title....at that point Oliver's career was over. He never played in another MLB game.
No owner wanted to employ him again and give him a chance to get the 240 some hits he needed to reach 3,000, with that kind of deportment and
me-first attitude. He was really the antithesis of a good team player in that instance (and probably at other less dramatic times in his career). When a player puts his personal situation over that of his team when it's in a do or die game, then there's something wrong with that player. Possibly in part because of the distraction Oliver created, Toronto went on to lose that game and that ALCS.
With 2757 hits, a .303 average and around 250 home runs, statistically Oliver would appear to have some decent Hall Of Fame qualifications, but on a personal level, Oliver isn't even close to making the Hall and never was.

Any other instances of this? He had one breakdown. So many players have. That's not enough to condemn him.

Oliver is one of the nicest ex-players I have met. He currently does motivational speaking.

[Philly-brownsfan]

Any other instances of this? He had one breakdown. So many players have. That's not enough to condemn him.

Oliver is one of the nicest ex-players I have met. He currently does motivational speaking.

He might have had other "breakdowns' that went largely unnoticed nationally. His timing was terrible during the '85 playoffs, however, at a highly visible point with a national audience. It was the GMs and owners of the time who condemned him. They never forgot the playoffs incident and as a result Oliver was unable to continue his playing career.

[Cougar]

I suspect the public hissy fit on national tv was unhelpful, but not as unhelpful as the fact that Oliver was coming off a subpar season at age 38 (.252/.282/.374) and really couldn't play a position on the field anymore.